Friday, April 11, 2008

Conversations With Pundita

The Counterjihad, the War to Save Civilization, and Distributed Emergence

Pundita is one of those bloggers who should be rich and famous and read by everybody. The fact that she isn’t serves to demonstrate the world’s general injustice.

One of her main specialties is the People’s Republic of China, which keeps her just slightly off our mission statement, so we don’t quote her as often as she deserves. But if you want the best analysis you can find on recent events in Tibet, go over to her blog and keep scrolling down — you’ll find a lot of information and some surprising conclusions.

We get a wealth of news tips every day, many more than we could ever possibly use, and I try to make sure that nothing goes to waste — I parcel unused material out to various bloggers who specialize in the relevant fields. That means I send my China tips to Pundita, even though I know she is almost certainly already aware of whatever tidbit I forward to her.

Last week I sent her a news link about Uighur protests in Xinjiang, and it led to an extended conversation in a series of emails. I gave her permission to post anything I said, and the result was a post at her blog called “Gates of Vienna and the astounding Fitna Rosetta Stone project, Part 1”.

I’ve used the term “Rosetta Stone” a lot in the past few months, but I never explained how it pertains to the Lionheart and Fitna translations. I’ll let Pundita do that for me:

The Rosetta StoneI disagree with Baron that the [Rosetta Stone] project is more symbolic than practical but I’ll leave that discussion for later.

One of the interesting things about the Fitna Rosetta Stone project is the number of years it took Dymphna and Baron to establish Gates of Vienna blog to the point where they could manage such a complex project involving thousands of volunteers. Yet when it all came together, they were able to do things more quickly than many international organizations.

The Rosetta Stone is an Ancient Egyptian artifact which was instrumental in advancing modern understanding of hieroglyphic writing. The stone is a Ptolemaic era stele with carved text. The text is made up of three translations of a single passage, written in two Egyptian language scripts (hieroglyphic and Demotic), and in classical Greek. It was created in 196 BC, discovered by the French in 1799 at Rosetta, a harbor on the Mediterranean coast in Egypt, and contributed greatly to the decipherment of the principles of hieroglyphic writing in 1822 by the French scholar Jean-François Champollion. Comparative translation of the stone assisted in understanding many previously undecipherable examples of hieroglyphic writing…

The term Rosetta Stone has become idiomatic as something that is a critical key to a process of decryption or translation of a difficult problem.

As often happens, my thinking about certain topics wasn’t clear (or even entirely conscious) until I wrote it down while trying to explain it to somebody else. Below are my emails to Pundita, and some of her responses. Part 2 of her post hasn’t come out yet — we’ll just have to wait and see what she has to say next…

The Rosetta Stone happened to come up because she referred to the fact that GoV concentrates on the European front of the Great Jihad.

This is from my follow-up email on April 4th:

Yes, we concentrate on Europe, because to me that’s the most important front in the war.

But the “Rosetta Stone for Fitna” project is actually broadening our reach. It made me realize that everything I do is done by personal networks. I used to read news stories on my own and cobble them together for my essays, but our blogging success has changed all that — I don’t get much time for independent reading! Yet I have excellent tipsters, so I get a constant flow of good up-to-date information. TB is my watchdog over Northern and Western Europe, and also the Arab press. He reads everything. [I should also have mentioned LN here.]

Insubria and C. Cantoni cover the Mediterranean and the Maghreb for me, mostly via ANSAmed, ADNKronos, and AsiaNews.

With all of these, I stay up to date on anything important, but I can use only about 5% of the material sent to me. So I try to make sure none of it goes to waste — I pass China material on to you, Pacific Rim stuff to Wretchard, Spanish-diaspora tips to Fausta, Israel and Jewish issues to Tundra Tabloids and Israel Matzav [and I forgot to include Pamela here in the original], and pretty much everything to Fjordman, Henrik at Europe News, and the Brits in CVF.

In the last few days, as the new volunteers have poured in to offer their services for translation or to help subtitle the videos, I’ve started to get assistance from beyond Europe. We just started corresponding with an Argentinean and a Uruguayan, and an Indonesian guy translated Fitna into Indonesian for us last night. More and more Central and Eastern Europeans are getting in touch, too.

It feels like we’re breaking into new territory here. Less than 24 hours elapsed between the time I posted about Indonesia’s reaction to Fitna and when the three versions of the movie subtitled in Indonesian went up onto the web. I don’t think the State Department or the UN can work that efficiently, and this was a volunteer operation.
- - - - - - - - -
So it’s a distributed network in action, doing what it does best. It’s not me or Dymphna or any other person doing all this; it’s a nexus of contacts, a lattice of information that spreads unbelievably quickly.

My only jobs are to grease this network to make it work a little more efficiently, and to write lucid propaganda copy to accompany the news stories. The rest of the work is done by thousands of people who have volunteered to join the cause of the Counterjihad.

Pundita’s response:

After your comments about GOV going global I am thinking of changing the category title from “Europe in the House of War” to “The Civilizational War.” If you can think of a better title please let me know

Also, if you can snatch a moment can you send me the link to the first Fitna Rosetta Stone post, and if it doesn’t contain an explanation about why you termed it Rosetta Stone, could you toss in a few sentences about this for me to publish?

Answering her questions was like eating popcorn, and I couldn’t stop with just a few sentences.

From my next email on April 7th:

I call it “The Counterjihad”. Not everybody likes the term, but it seems to me the shortest and best summary of what we’re all part of. It says, “Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Sikhs, Christians, Mormons, and Atheists are all included.”

The Rosetta Stone posts:

Rosetta Stone for Fitna
Rosetta Stone for Fitna Part Two
Rosetta Stone for Fitna Part Three
Rosetta Stone for Fitna Part Four
Rosetta Stone for Fitna Part Five
Rosetta Stone for Fitna Part Six

The overview:

Fitna Translations

I never did explain the title! I guess I just assume readers know what the Rosetta Stone is — and I also used an image of it in the graphic that goes with the posts.

I started the “Rosetta Stone” process when I organized the translations of Lionheart in January. The idea was to get versions in as many languages as possible — hence the “Rosetta Stone” meme. We got 17 languages for Lionheart.

But we pushed it up to 20 for Fitna.

Lionheart was a dry run for Fitna, in a way. It helped me to corral a team, and design a system of rapid response for translation. We were anticipating the movie (I had a reliable tip about the date), and were very ready to mobilize as soon as it arrived. The emails went out that night, and the first translation rolled in the next day.

Fitna came out on the Thursday afternoon, and by the following Monday we had it in 19 languages (the Indonesian version came later, and there may be more yet to come, fingers crossed).

This was due to diligent and rapid effort on the part of a lot of different people. It was not me, or Dymphna, or any other single person who gets the credit; it was the entire team, some of whom — the go-betweens and the tipsters — don’t get any public mention.

So the translation team — all volunteers, most of them using pseudonyms, nobody getting paid — is ready for other important projects when they turn up.

You’d have to pay a lot of money to be able to do the same thing in any of the traditional ways, and even then you might not get it done so quickly. This is distributed intelligence at its finest. Everybody who stepped forward to help is a hero, IMHO.

The subtitling process was different — most of subtitled versions were created by people who have nothing to do with us. Maybe four or five of our translations were used to make subtitles. But I gathered links to any of the available downloads as people sent them to me, so that we could have one location where people could find Fitna, in as many languages and formats as are available.

If you want some fun, Google “fitna download” and see what happens!

The goal of the Rosetta Stone project (or projects) is more symbolic than practical, although there is some practical value in it.

Normally, the really big stories in the blogosphere are in English, German, French, or Spanish — the languages of other smaller countries aren’t included, even though they have their own vibrant, intelligent, mature blog cultures.

Almost every literate Dane is also literate in English. But the same is not true of Czechoslovakia or Portugal — they’re at least as likely to learn German or French in school as they are English.

So delivering something to them in their own languages, translated by their own citizens, is a way of recognizing that they are distinct, sovereign countries and cultures, and that we are in solidarity with them. It’s true multiculturalism, one that respects the existence of other cultures on equal terms, but within their own countries.

It’s a little easier for an American to coordinate such an effort, because I don’t have a dog in any of the fights — between Germans and Poles, British and Irish, Portuguese and Castilians, Serbs and Croats, Danes and Swedes, etc., etc. I tend towards a partiality for the Danes and the Brits, but I don’t take sides in any of the squabbles.

Then Pundita had some nice things to say about us in an email she wrote to Dymphna:

GOV is a very important site because for years it has specialized in reporting on the growing situation in Europe, which as of last year had clearly transcended the war on terror. This is a civilizational war. Yet it has been carefully kept out of the mainstream news in the United States. So the situation in Europe that Mark Steyn reported on in his book America Alone (2006) was stunning news to most Americans — but not to those who had been reading Gates of Vienna for years.

Also, as you know, I jumped into the Section 13-free speech issue in Canada very early; what you don’t know is that reading GOV for years had helped me instantly recognize the wider implications of the issue. The civilizational war is not just over there across The Pond.

And once again, my years of reading GOV made me quick to realize the implications of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Sharia speech — as my involvement with the Section 13 affair and readings of Canadian free speech blogs caused me to instantly recognize the import of the archbishop’s diatribe against free speech.

Many issues from many quarters are dovetailing, and only those Americans who are closely following ‘Europe in the house of war’ and the Section 13 struggle are aware of how all this is building to impact the United States of America.

The other day I joked that MSM editors and TV news producers in the US are praying, ‘Oh God please don’t let the American public learn about the war in Europe until after the presidential election.’

It’s unlikely that more than a handful in the US journalism profession are aware of the war but if they knew, probably many would be making just such a prayer.

And her conclusion:

I’m not entirely happy with Baron’s title suggestion (Counterjihad); I don’t think it conveys the scope of Gates of Vienna. But if I don’t come to a decision it will be next year before you get your own category on my blogroll. Right now I’m leaning toward “The War to Save Civilization.” I’ve given myself the deadline of 10:00 PM to make up my fussy mind.

Pundita’s mind is so fussy that 10:00 PM came and went, and still no category title…

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

When we started our blog three and a half years ago, we didn’t realize what an informational maelstrom we were wading into. Now I’m up to my neck every day in news items, correspondence, skype, editing, practical projects, and (occasionally) writing actual essays.

All of this activity is necessary, and useful, and rewarding. But it’s salutary every now and then to step back and take a look a the larger picture of what we’re doing. Having conversations with intelligent and well-informed people helps me gain that perspective.

From where I stand I can’t see anything but trees. It’s not possible to see the forest. None of us can.

But it’s occasionally entertaining to imagine what a forest looks like.


Mikael said...

You're both doing a great job, Baron and Dymphna. Keep it up!

This blog is a prime example of citizen journalism, I read the important news here long before any of it is picked up in the Danish MSM (if picked up at all.)

Just wanted to let y'all know.

costin said...

This was a very, very interesting post. In fact you just described the forest, so it's not only the trees that you can see IMHO :)
Anyway, keep it up! in the last year I have developed a strong addiction for your blog and I think that in the following years more and more GoV junkies will appear.

Conservative Swede said...

Checked out Pundita's writing about Tibet and China, and found:

...if you know about the holocaust that China inflicted on Tibet...

Holocaust??? How is this blogger not just another leftist hysteric? Beats me!

Previous comment by me about China and Tibet here.

X said...

I suspect you have a rather rose-tinted view of the Chinese, especially their current government. The mere fact that they are preventing a muslim incursion into the regions to their north and west does not in any way excuse out the way they treat the populations of these areas.

Chinese culture is not superior to ours. These are a people who, in Taiping rebellion and the Opium wars, routinely slaughtered entire cities in order to discourage their own soldiers from deserting. On both sides. The result was millions dying, far more than during the shoah or even during Stalin's pogroms and purges. That same attitude is still there. The communist revolution was a virtual repeat of the Taiping rebellion with communism instead of the warped and twisted version of christianity that sparked the previous war, and involved the same mass slaughter, and that attitude prevails today at the very highest levels of government. But that's China. The Chinese think they're the bloody centre of the world.

I'm not sure what you would call forced abortions, routine execution of people for following proscribed religions, or for merely being a "lesser" race, if not "actively exterminating their own population". What would you call that? Damage control? High spirits? Administrative oversight, perhaps? Unless, of course, you don't include anyone who isn't Han Chinese in "their own population".

Not to mention that China already has massive muslim enclaves within its borders, to the south and east of Tibet...

davidhamilton said...

The AARP advertisement blocks out part of the text of this post. This is annoying.

Sagunto said...

"..I’m not entirely happy with Baron’s title suggestion (Counterjihad); I don’t think it conveys the scope of Gates of Vienna.."

Why's that?
What happened at the Gates of Vienna 1683, was Counterjihad, pure and simple (and victorious).

It therefore is the one word that i.m.o. exactly conveys, maybe not the "scope", but definitely the focus of GOV.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,

VinceP1974 said...

Last year I named my little non-Blog of a website the Islamo-American War

Though in all truth the war we're in is the 3rd Global Islamo-Kuffar War, or 3rd Global Jihad.

VinceP1974 said...

This is hyperlink to my site

Afonso Henriques said...

yes, Chinese civilisations "seems to be" superior to ours exactly because, as Fjordman noted, they are not working against their Native population. By the way, the non Han Chinese are as much Chinese as the muslim "youths" are French.
It is even worst because the non Han Chinese peoples in China are being colonised in their own homelands. But, why am I wasting my time. I will not make you a critical of Multiculturalism will I?


Now, Baron and Dymphna, you have been doing a fantastic work. All those nets are... incredible... superb. I can hardly describe how important it is... Even God himself his praising you people!

But now I am going to be a pain in the ass and say what I don't like:
I don't like the fact that you people are too anti-muslim. You should be pro-Europe here and in America, but you are just anti and so the muslims look the centre (and are in fact) of this blog. I think it will not be the same in two years time... hope...
I also don't like the fact that you cover Northern Europe too much. Look at the South! Or even just to the West! Look at France! I can´t believe that nothing is happening in Paris! I never heard about Marseille in this blog except for a anti islamisation manifestation. And there things look pretty bad too. Southeastern Europe is inded the Great Frontline but even there...
Well, but your work as been great after all.

"Almost every literate Dane is also literate in English. But the same is not true of Czechoslovakia or Portugal — they’re at least as likely to learn German or French in school as they are English."

Actually it is not true. We learn English at school from the ten years old (now from six, and I am against it) up untill seventeen years old. We also learn French from 12 to 14 years old. But the education here is so bad that only a minority does know some English or French to have a conversation. German is not mandatory.

According to the E.U., 22% of the people in Portugal speak English good enough to have a conversation in that language. 18% know French well enough and only 3% know German. Adittionaly, 8% claim to know Spanish well enough to have a conversation.

I would say that French is more spoken among the older elite, of people with more than 40 years old. English is more well known to this younger elite. You can say that all inteligent adults under 30 years old here can speak English good enough to maintain a conversation. It depends of whom you're talking to, but if you talk to "intelligent young people" they will understand your English good enough.

Paul said...

Here's treat for GoV compatriots:

Celtic sound from Planxty, The Clare Jig, also known as A Mug of Brownh Ale. Take you choice.

If you liked that, try the 2nd half of:

The name is Gaelic and I can't pronouce it.

Afonso Henriques said...

Really nice Paul.

I love this kind of music. As we speak, the Interceltic musical "meeting" (I couldn't find a better English word...) is going on in Portugal with Portuguese, Spanish, French and of course Irish Celtic music. Unfortunateley, it is 300Km North from where I live.

Pundita said...

To Conservative Swede: What do you consider "conservative" about yourself, if you would call me a leftist for pointing out on my blog that China's system of government is a communist dictatorship? Or did you only read a couple sentences of what I have written about China on my blog?

Realize that Chinese are not allowed to own property because of the communist system; only the government can own property. This has led to wide scale government-instigated atrocities against Chinese citizens, as the government carries out massive "land clearing" operations to make way for development.

This is not just in the last century. This is happening today and has been happening all along, as the world's democracies have looked the other way while yammering to their citizens about China's "economic miracle."

If you say that land clearing must happen for development, let me explain how an "economic miracle" and development happen in a communist police state:

How would you like it, if you heard a policeman on your street announcing through a megaphone that everyone living in your neighborhood had one hour to pack their belongings and leave?

How would you like it, if your family were brutally murdered before your eyes and you were then arrested, imprisoned and tortured for daring to protest your eviction? How would you like it, if you didn't have a legal leg to stand on in your protest?

How would you like it, if you then spent the rest of your short life in near-starvation circumstances in a Chinese gulag, working 18 hours a day on an assembly line that cranks out cheap goods for export?
Or have you never heard of the infamous Laogai?

How would you like it, if you worked in the Laogai for no compensation because you are a prisoner for the rest of your life? Your crime? You are an enemy of the state because you protested being evicted from land you'd leased.

The situation is so awful that for years now, there have been pitched battles between millions of desperate Chinese and government goons, all over China's Mainland. This March even the Panda-hugging TIME magazine finally made a small mention of the situation in their article China's Fighting Farmers. Yet the TIME article is only the tip of the iceberg.

Do you find what I'm telling you hard to believe because you haven't heard about this before in your country? Why don't you ask your government's trade minister why you haven't heard? Why don't you ask your 'free' press why they haven't told you the truth?

In the meantime, I recommend that you pay attention to the words of Graham Dawson in this comment section. He is telling you the truth about China. My only regret is that because this is a comment section, Dawson's history lesson is all too brief.

With regard to the Muslim situation in China, it's just the opposite of your claim in the "earlier comment" you link to in this section. You wrote, "Tibet is under the protective wings of a fully sound empire (China). Tibet is surrounded by Muslims. Pakistanis, Kashmir, Bangladeshis, Turks, Afghan, etc. Take away the protective wings of China and the Muslims will pour in."

You are laboring under a misconception. China's empire is not "fully sound." The abuses inflicted by China's rulers on the poorest Han Chinese and the non-Han populations are so great that this has created a tinderbox situation that no amount of government propaganda can defuse or hide, and which plays into the hands of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

China's rulers have been so repressive of the Muslim populations that this is setting the stage for radicalization of Muslims who were never before radical, and whose view of Islam is not the kind pushed by the jihadis!

So I was stunned to read Afonso Henriques's comment "yes, Chinese civilisations 'seems to be' superior to ours exactly because, as Fjordman noted, they are not working against their Native population."

If Fjordman did indeed make that remark he is also tragically misinformed, and clearly outside his area of knowledge when he writes about China.

Whatever horrors China's Han rulers have done to non-Han peoples within their empire, it's a drop in the bucket next to what they've done to the "Native" Han. Again, this is not just going back into ancient history or even Mao's reign of terror; this is today.

Conservative Swede said...

Pundita & Graham,

It's clear that China does not live up to a Utopian (culturally leftist) catalogue of human rights--no fully sound empire does. So this is true already by definition, so there are no surprises in this.

I addressed the usage of the word "holocaust" which, used in this way, is the typical signum of reckless leftist hysteria (perhaps unintentionally, but nevertheless worth pointing out). Nothing you mention now is even within miles of amounting to that. Compared to the claim that China inflicted a holocaust on Tibet, what you mention is truly peanuts, or crumbs of peanuts (if even applicable).

I would of course also accept a withdrawal of this truly deranged description.

Why is it so difficult to stay within decent language? I'd be happy to have a decent discussion about China, but I think we'd need to get past this thing first.

Finally, some happy and heartening pictures:
China’s Olympic torch hero Jin Jing.

The leftist activist are aggressive and hateful as always, the police doing a find job, and Jin Jing looking like an angel. Such lowlifes to attack a woman in a wheel-chair and a blind man.

This is what hysteria leads to in practice for some people. Not a very smart move. A great propaganda victory for China. Hysteria is not in the interest of the hysteric himself. It's truly an illness.

Conservative Swede said...


I can't help getting the impression that what you write is based on a rose-tinted view of what is happening to the West. I addressed here the common failure of not truly grasping what's going on. Have you truly grasped the meaning of the West being lost, lost as in eradicated and irreversibly destroyed? Have you fully grasped the meaning of having your culture completely eliminated?

Have a look at the northern Africa, the Levant and Mesopotamia to get an idea. Most people have even forgot what they used to represent. We cannot afford to lose ourselves in sissy details. Now that we are up against Islam, we need to get tough.

This is our perverted and utterly immoral starting point:
Lawrence Auster: Our perverted Iraq policy

Our current culture is the sickest and most immoral that has ever existed in the history of mankind. You should oppose those sides of our culture, not nurture them.

Surely there are sick and immoral sides of China too. The Maoist legacy is not exactly a healthy one. But like a cat they landed on their feet, while we act like lemmings. Any sick or immoral side of China pale in comparison with our patently mentally deranged culture. It's not even in the same ballpark.

X said...

Unlike some people I've never accepted the inevitability argument. It may well be that western culture will fall, but it isn't inevitable, and as long as we believe that there's every chance of it surviving and thriving. The people who argue it's inevitable that Islam will prevail have already lost the fight, and implicitly accept that Islam is superior to our culture in some way.

Your accusations of hysteria ring a little hollow when you are equally hysterical about our fate.

"Sickest and most immoral" is hyperbole and you know it. The Greeks were far more immoral than we, and the Rajahs of India created a cultural malaise that kept India in a dark age for hundreds of years. We are ill, we are blinded but we are not the sickest culture ever. I'd say that particular epithet is still reserved for the south- and central-american natives around the time of the conquista.

You see, unlike you, who sees only the negatives, I can see the potential positive outcomes of the current situation. The pressure of multiculturalism on one side, the slow but steady humiliation of the working classes by their supposed protectors on another and the resentment against these things, and against the "european project" on yet another, are creating a situation that will, sooner or later, cause people to simply state that they've had enough. And it will be sooner than this "inevitable" demographic conquest that people keep going on about, simply because all the players are revealing their hand too soon - and, yes, because of the efforts of GoV and the whole counterjihad movement. So as much as you say we don't need hysteria about "holocausts" and the like, I would say that we also don't need hysteria about western culture being irredeemably doomed. It's counter-productive and spreads discouragement and apathy - and apathy is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Sagunto said...


Thnx for your comment.
I fully agree with your realistic views on the Counterjihad.
Perhaps the despair or anger about the demise of European culture, voiced by CSw, would be legitimate though, if it was aimed more specifically at the EUrocratics and other members of the elitist nomenclatura.

All too often general statements are launched about the state of affairs anywhere on the globe, starring: "the Americans" and "the Europeans" or "the Frisians". Who are these people? It would clarify things quite a bit, when governments and/or political elites and their ilk are implied, that one would simply state that and not use broad descriptions that normally refer to an entire population.

VinceP1974 said...

IMHO unless the Left in the West is somehow restrained, or their program roll-backed, I believe it is inevitible that the culture will collapse.

After all that does seem to be one of their aspirations... the complete unmooring of our nations from the traditions that made them what they are.

Afonso Henriques said...


"I was stunned to read Afonso Henriques's comment "yes, Chinese civilisations 'seems to be' superior to ours exactly because, as Fjordman noted, they are not working against their Native population."
If Fjordman did indeed make that remark he is also tragically misinformed, and clearly outside his area of knowledge when he writes about China."

I've never been ou your blog but you seem to be an expert about China. I am no expert. I can only see what comes in front of my eyes and believe me, many of what comes into the front of my eyes, comes from blogs and opinions like yours and GoV. Sustented information.
But I also do another thing. I analyse (or try to) the information I recieve rationally. Maybe not as much as Fjordman does, but in a similar fashion.

When I - and Fjordman - said that Chinese civilisation is "SUPERIOR" to our "European Civilisation" I said it following a certain logic.
That logic is: A "SUPERIOR" Civilisation is a Civilisation that prepetuates in the best way possible the existence of a given group, its culture, power and also a Civilisation that elevates Man Kind to a Transcendental level, a level beyond the mere Human level; a Civilisation capable of "Supra-Human" deeds.

To understand my point of view, you will have to be a disgracefull racist and assume that Europeans and Chinese do see the world with different preceptions and intrepret the world differently.
Also, I will even add that Europeans and Chinese "feel the world" differently.
So, in my view (and I tried to make it in a less prejudiced way but I can't, sorry) one of the Northeast Asian people's strenghts against people of European descent is that those Asians are "like ants" (I can recall how the Russians in the second World War lead their Turkic-Mongol warriors to the front line, equiped only with horses and arows against the German army. To this men was only granted the right to do and keep everything they wanted. Not with standing, this men went against Hitler's forces, not worrying for their lives and many (few of them though) did indeed penetrated the German forces. Then, they took the more goods they could handle and they viciously raped the more Native girls as they culd. I heard somewhere that East German and Hungarian women were even cutting their own faces to look ugly in order not to be raped and eventually killed. They are/were savages. I also heard that the upper class women and children of Budapest was severeley targeted.). They feel more the colectivity than the induviduality. An European who gives his live for a community, be it family, Nation or whatever, is seen as an altruist heroe; An Asian (Northeast at least) who does not act in this manner is a disgracefull man. In short, they do not vallue life as much as Europeans do. And defenetley they don't vallue quality of life as the other peoples of the world do. They have higher ideals.

It doesn't matter how and how much the Han people suffers, what metters is that they suffer so that the next generation can suffer again so that sometime in the future, the "glory" will belong to China. In this way China can prepetuate itself good enough. And prepuate also its genetic singularity, its culture and all the traces of the "Han Chinese Comunity".
This, especially at the light of the "Chinese are like ants" theory (so they don't seek individualism) gives to the Chinese a superiority that Europeans can hardly understand because it is also part of the Chinese (Han) cultural profile - let's named it so.
It's like if they liked being misstreated. They don't but they see it as a lesser evil in a way that Europeans (even Heroes of the good old Europe) can not understand/feel/aprehend. It's, in my opinion, a cultural or genetic trend.

If you see it in a non nihilist prespective, the Chinese are not "working against its Native (Han) population", they are indeed hardening. You can see all this "horrors" as a sort of eugenics in order to improve China to the future.

Europe, by the way, is doing exactly the opposite. Europe that had up until 1945 the superior Civilisation of Humanity in almost all levels one can recall, is now decadent and "inviting the world, both peoples who seem inferior and peoples which, if not inferior, have been Historical enemies".
That's called civilisation suicide.

So China seems to be "SUPERIOR" to Europe right now.

Also, concearning the "supra-humanity" of Chinese civilisation... China's rich culture and History can be compaired to Europe and Islam. And Chinese culture is way "SUPERIOR" to that of the African, Native Americans and Austronesian peoples. Also, the Southeast Asian peoples "achievments" would be close to zero if it weren't the cultural and (we better don't talk about the rest) loans from India and China; Also, what would be Japan if China did not exist? In a way, Japan is to China what America could be to Europe in 2000 years time. It says a lot about "Han Chinese SUPERIORITY".
Also, I can not see much superiority of North African, Turkic and (south) Arabic peoples in relation to China.
But, hey! How can one define superiority? Are't we all the same?

I do not agree with Conservative Swede at all. I am all for the Tibetans. Well... I was because the extintion of that people seem now unavoidable, especailly when leaded by the Dalai Lama.

I think that Conservative Swede's opinion is the reflex of what is wrong in the "so-called-anti-jihadi" movement.
It is so afraid of being called racist that it does not stand for Europe, the only "evil ethnic" it can see is the muslims. And as so, it blames the riots of France upon the muslims despite the fact that many of the "blacks" were from Christian countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo and some of them were indeed "to light and to blonde to be Morrocans", poor hard core anarchist leftist Native French youngsters.

It expresses more than pro-something, an hatred toward islam and the muslims.


"... are creating a situation that will, sooner or later, cause people to simply state that they've had enough. And it will be sooner than this "inevitable" demographic conquest that people keep going on about, simply because all the players are revealing their hand too soon"

Now imagine the people says: It's enough! What will happen then? Will they throw out all non native ethnics? Will they stick to the church and convert all the muslims by force?
The problem lies exactly in the fact that even if the populace screams "it's enough!" they are powerless to do any good.

thll said...

Crying 'No more!' is the necessary first step in responding to the problem. 'No more!' means 'I have gone beyond tolerating that which is upsetting me and I am prepared for action!'