Saturday, April 12, 2008

Tibet, the Laogai, and Western Self-Loathing

The comment thread on last night’s post about Pundita turned into an interesting discussion about China.

Since Afonso Henriques brought Fjordman’s name into the discussion, and because Pundita mentioned him in her response, I asked Fjordman to add his two cents’ worth. I’ll give him the last word.

Conservative Swede started it off with this comment:

Checked out Pundita’s writing about Tibet and China, and found:

…if you know about the holocaust that China inflicted on Tibet…

Holocaust??? How is this blogger not just another leftist hysteric? Beats me!

To which Pundita responded at length:

To Conservative Swede: What do you consider “conservative” about yourself, if you would call me a leftist for pointing out on my blog that China’s system of government is a communist dictatorship? Or did you only read a couple sentences of what I have written about China on my blog?

Realize that Chinese are not allowed to own property because of the communist system; only the government can own property. This has led to wide scale government-instigated atrocities against Chinese citizens, as the government carries out massive “land clearing” operations to make way for development.

The LaogaiThis is not just in the last century. This is happening today and has been happening all along, as the world’s democracies have looked the other way while yammering to their citizens about China’s “economic miracle.”

If you say that land clearing must happen for development, let me explain how an “economic miracle” and development happen in a communist police state:

How would you like it, if you heard a policeman on your street announcing through a megaphone that everyone living in your neighborhood had one hour to pack their belongings and leave?

How would you like it, if your family were brutally murdered before your eyes and you were then arrested, imprisoned and tortured for daring to protest your eviction? How would you like it, if you didn’t have a legal leg to stand on in your protest?

The LaogaiHow would you like it, if you then spent the rest of your short life in near-starvation circumstances in a Chinese gulag, working 18 hours a day on an assembly line that cranks out cheap goods for export?

Or have you never heard of the infamous Laogai?

How would you like it, if you worked in the Laogai for no compensation because you are a prisoner for the rest of your life? Your crime? You are an enemy of the state because you protested being evicted from land you’d leased.

The situation is so awful that for years now, there have been pitched battles between millions of desperate Chinese and government goons, all over China’s Mainland. This March even the Panda-hugging TIME magazine finally made a small mention of the situation in their article China’s Fighting Farmers. Yet the TIME article is only the tip of the iceberg.
- - - - - - - - -
Do you find what I’m telling you hard to believe because you haven’t heard about this before in your country? Why don’t you ask your government’s trade minister why you haven’t heard? Why don’t you ask your ‘free’ press why they haven’t told you the truth?

In the meantime, I recommend that you pay attention to the words of Graham Dawson in this comment section. He is telling you the truth about China. My only regret is that because this is a comment section, Dawson’s history lesson is all too brief.

With regard to the Muslim situation in China, it’s just the opposite of your claim in the “earlier comment” you link to in this section. You wrote, “Tibet is under the protective wings of a fully sound empire (China). Tibet is surrounded by Muslims. Pakistanis, Kashmir, Bangladeshis, Turks, Afghan, etc. Take away the protective wings of China and the Muslims will pour in.”

You are laboring under a misconception. China’s empire is not “fully sound.” The abuses inflicted by China’s rulers on the poorest Han Chinese and the non-Han populations are so great that this has created a tinderbox situation that no amount of government propaganda can defuse or hide, and which plays into the hands of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

Chinese posterChina’s rulers have been so repressive of the Muslim populations that this is setting the stage for radicalization of Muslims who were never before radical, and whose view of Islam is not the kind pushed by the jihadis!

So I was stunned to read Afonso Henriques’s comment “yes, Chinese civilisations ‘seems to be’ superior to ours exactly because, as Fjordman noted, they are not working against their Native population.”

If Fjordman did indeed make that remark he is also tragically misinformed, and clearly outside his area of knowledge when he writes about China.

Whatever horrors China’s Han rulers have done to non-Han peoples within their empire, it’s a drop in the bucket next to what they’ve done to the “Native” Han. Again, this is not just going back into ancient history or even Mao’s reign of terror; this is today.

I asked Fjordman for his reaction, and he sent this in an email:

I don’t have time to make a full post about this today, but you can say that Conservative Swede can be a provocative man, but in my experience there is almost always a grain of truth in what he says. Is Tibetan independence realistic, or even desirable, given its Muslim surroundings? Could an independent Tibetan state survive in the long run?

Just for the record: I do not like the Chinese Communist Party. I do not belong to those people who think that China’s rise to superpower status and global preeminence is inevitable. I have read, and also heard personally, reports from people who have spent a lot of time in China and report about a seriously flawed education system and endemic corruption, among other things. I firmly believe in freedom of speech, and that this gives economic benefits in the long run.

Greater political and individual liberty is one of the most important reasons why Europe pulled ahead of China in the first place, and I do not believe the Chinese will be able to live up to their full potential unless ordinary people enjoy a greater degree of political liberty. And notice here that I do not say democracy, which is not and never has been automatically synonymous with liberty. Just look at the mess the Americans have created in Iraq because of this delusion.

What I have suggested in the past is that the Chinese are not actively suicidal in the way we are right now. Allowing your country to be flooded by hostile aliens is a Western flaw, not a Chinese one. In the United States, there are “whiteness studies” in a number of leading universities where members of the traditional majority population are taught to hate themselves. There are no “Han-ness studies” in Chinese universities where the majority population are taught to hate themselves and to believe that they should be displaced by Bangladeshi Muslims in order to prove their non-racist nature.

China may or may not be the world’s largest economy and leading power a century from now, but I’m pretty sure something recognizable as China and Chinese civilization will still exist, barring an asteroid strike, a new killer virus or some other global disaster that destroys human civilization as we know it. Can we say the same thing about many Western nations?


Bezzle said...

> Is Tibetan independence realistic, or even desirable, given its Muslim surroundings?

What a ludicrous question.

As Ayn would ask, "...desirable to whom?"

Don't you think that a Tibetan's opinion is of more worth than a Bejing commissar?


Henrik R Clausen said...

By now, more Chinese than Tibetans live in Tibet, and independence would probably not be desirable to the majority of those who inhabit the area. That train probably left the station many years ago.

What they should ask for is freedom to excercise their amazing culture. That would be more important than having an independent nation.

Oh. I think the Olympics should return to Greece. Permanently. There's just too much politics, power games and corruption the way they run now. London 2112, then home.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Typo. Meant '2012', obviously :)

Conservative Swede said...

"Pundita responded at length" it says. Surely "at length", but responded??? She has written long and windingly, but never once addressed the issue I brought up. Isn't this rather telling?

1. I have taken Pundita to task for claiming that China has inflicted a holocaust on Tibet. I claim that such a description is hysteria without backing in the real world.
2. Pundita writes something very long, which is not an answer to what I wrote, and which completely avoids the non-holocaust in Tibet.

The fact that she can't back it up becomes embarrassingly obvious.

It's OK to withdraw this unwise description, Pundita. It would be a smart move if you do not want to appear as a leftist hysteric. However, if you decide to hold on to it, the discussion will also take an interesting turn (in which I will use comparative examples and also be more concrete about the term "leftist hysteric").

To me, this sort of usage of the word 'holocaust' reveals a lynch mob or inquisition mentality. Where the categorical belief that we are the soldiers of goodness makes us accept any sort of exaggeration. Correspondence to truth is considered irrelevant. There is no limit to how far an exaggeration can go. If you show yourself true to the cause you are always right even if you are wrong. In fact if you take the exaggeration to absurd lengths, you are just demonstration that your faith in the true cause is stronger. This is a pattern we know e.g. from Charles Johnson at LGF. It is a pattern that leads to Global Warming hysteria. And it is of course the pattern behind multiculturalism. Let's stay away from this pattern, shall we?

In the thread mentioned here I added two comments last night.

My first comment about China and Tibet I wrote here.

Conservative Swede said...


Why so aggressive against China? What about Spain and Catalonia and Basque country. France and Corsica. Italy and the South Tyrol province.

How come Spain is so celebrated under the rule of Zapatero? Why is not Spain boycotted? It's truly a universe of leftist/liberal spin we live in.

Anyway, regarding independence of Tibet (a leftist/liberal bandwagon you decided to jump upon), I already lined out a possible scenario for how it could develop:

"Take away the protective wings of China and the Muslims will pour in. As we know, they spread and breed rather quickly, so already during this century there would be Muslim enclaves and the ensuing violent conflicts.

This is the time when the USA would step in and give away half of Tibet to the Muslims."

Conservative Swede said...

And in conclusion to above, in answer to your question "...desirable to whom?"

Desirable to the Tibetians!

But self-loathing Westerners will only pay attention to the small minority acting as leftist activists. To Westerners the important thing is to animate their own Utopian myths and dreams, not what is good and sustainable in the real world.

Homophobic Horse said...

But it is safe to say that the Chi-Com government is highly oppressive and at times at war with its "own" people yes?

From the start of this latest spate of trouble in Tibet I have thought it ironic that westerners believe Tibet has a right to continued existence (which includes border sovereignty) whilst denying and repudiating this right for westerners through multiculturalism.

Anonymous said...

@Conservative Swede:
"Why so aggressive against China? What about Spain and Catalonia and Basque country. France and Corsica. Italy and the South Tyrol province."

Because the Spanish haven't killed 1,2 million Catalans and the French haven't killed 1,2 million Corsicans, have they?

Do you know what 1,2 million dead mean to a people that had only a bit more than 6 million people when they were invaded by the Chinese?

Annoy Mouse said...

I have no love for the Chi-Comms. Frankly, I wonder why all the hub-bub about Tibet when our governments just bestowed the honor of the Olympics upon them ever so recently. And, by admitting China in the World Trade Organization, we have lowered tariffs on Chinese imports by 15% or more. China’s trade surplus with the United States is in the many billions per month, something close to the annual Japanese trade surplus with the United States of two decades ago. So thoughtful of our governments to subsidize the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army to the tune of 100 billion or more a year.

The Tibetans, by their own admission, only ruled in a narrow window between 1913 and 1959, a time of strife and warring factions in the years of the Great War, and not just a bit of British perfidy.

So why all the bother now? I think that since our governments have lost their covenant with the people on matters of great importance such as trade and immigration, the average person has found it necessary to protest the brutality of China from abroad. The average anglo may not be able to stand in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square, but they can stand in front of the torch on Main Street USA.

So, though the issue may have been subsumed by ‘leftists’, we can stand and be counted to show our government that they rule at the pleasure of the citizens that elected them and though they know better than us, they too are subject to recall.

the doctor said...

I am very surprised , I never thought that I would disagree with Conservative Swede or Fjordman , however I must back Pundita . Having spent a considerable amount of time in China , very recently ,nearly all of it in the rural areas I have seen at first hand the way the police / militia "encourage" the population to leave villages that the State requires . Protesters shot for asking for time to pack belongings ; grenades thrown into houses where people refuse to leave , yes houses containing women and children .
This is why I say that on this occasion you are wrong , gentle men .

turn said...

OK. Various lefties have latched onto the 'free Tibet' meme and maybe some will come to realize that collectivism is not such a good idea.

I would not choose for my children to live in China. I'm pretty sure the bulk of Chinese people would leave if they could which indicates a governance that I could never accept. I know people who have escaped the regime at great cost and peril.

Bothering me today is the fact that we allowed the Chinese to stifle free expression on our own American soil. Read about that here

spackle said...

Let us not forget Chinas constant theft and espionage against the US or the shoot-down of a satellite and a huge military buildup. They are eagerly pursuing a Blue water navy. I know, I know, this is just China acting in a logical way as an emerging superpower. I dont buy that for a second. Today Taiwan tomorrow the Pacific and then? With europe gone to the Muslims/ EUSSR and the US ruled by Jimmy Carter part 2 (I hope not) who in Gods name will stop them? Call me paranoid but I think we ignore them at our peril.

Afonso Henriques said...

Well, I am a bit late to this discussion but I must say the following:

"Is Tibetan independence realistic, or even desirable, given its Muslim surroundings? Could an independent Tibetan state survive in the long run?"

For God sake Fjordman! Were you drunk last night?
How can you forget India, a nuclear power with more than one thousand million subjects that has Historically been a friendly ally of Tibet!
Of course Tibet is a viable State, especially because the Tibetan people just wants to maintain their HUMBLE CULTURE!
Tibet is much, much more viable than Kosovo, or Bosnia and many othe European States.

Also, I feel like I am the sstupidest person on earth because I just published a comment on the other thread about this.
I will copy it to it, because some readers may find it funy with all my "racist" remarks and "abusive critics" against the counter jihad. I even said that the Chinese are like ants! This goes to those readers of Gov who do not comment but do read the comments. Maybe one or two people can find it interesting or amusing.
Here it goes:


"I was stunned to read Afonso Henriques's comment "yes, Chinese civilisations 'seems to be' superior to ours exactly because, as Fjordman noted, they are not working against their Native population."
If Fjordman did indeed make that remark he is also tragically misinformed, and clearly outside his area of knowledge when he writes about China."

I've never been ou your blog but you seem to be an expert about China. I am no expert. I can only see what comes in front of my eyes and believe me, many of what comes into the front of my eyes, comes from blogs and opinions like yours and GoV. Sustented information.
But I also do another thing. I analyse (or try to) the information I recieve rationally. Maybe not as much as Fjordman does, but in a similar fashion.

When I - and Fjordman - said that Chinese civilisation is "SUPERIOR" to our "European Civilisation" I said it following a certain logic.
That logic is: A "SUPERIOR" Civilisation is a Civilisation that prepetuates in the best way possible the existence of a given group, its culture, power and also a Civilisation that elevates Man Kind to a Transcendental level, a level beyond the mere Human level; a Civilisation capable of "Supra-Human" deeds.

To understand my point of view, you will have to be a disgracefull racist and assume that Europeans and Chinese do see the world with different preceptions and intrepret the world differently.
Also, I will even add that Europeans and Chinese "feel the world" differently.
So, in my view (and I tried to make it in a less prejudiced way but I can't, sorry) one of the Northeast Asian people's strenghts against people of European descent is that those Asians are "like ants" (I can recall how the Russians in the second World War lead their Turkic-Mongol warriors to the front line, equiped only with horses and arows against the German army. To this men was only granted the right to do and keep everything they wanted. Not with standing, this men went against Hitler's forces, not worrying for their lives and many (few of them though) did indeed penetrated the German forces. Then, they took the more goods they could handle and they viciously raped the more Native girls as they culd. I heard somewhere that East German and Hungarian women were even cutting their own faces to look ugly in order not to be raped and eventually killed. They are/were savages. I also heard that the upper class women and children of Budapest was severeley targeted.). They feel more the colectivity than the induviduality. An European who gives his live for a community, be it family, Nation or whatever, is seen as an altruist heroe; An Asian (Northeast at least) who does not act in this manner is a disgracefull man. In short, they do not vallue life as much as Europeans do. And defenetley they don't vallue quality of life as the other peoples of the world do. They have higher ideals.

It doesn't matter how and how much the Han people suffers, what metters is that they suffer so that the next generation can suffer again so that sometime in the future, the "glory" will belong to China. In this way China can prepetuate itself good enough. And prepuate also its genetic singularity, its culture and all the traces of the "Han Chinese Comunity".
This, especially at the light of the "Chinese are like ants" theory (so they don't seek individualism) gives to the Chinese a superiority that Europeans can hardly understand because it is also part of the Chinese (Han) cultural profile - let's named it so.
It's like if they liked being misstreated. They don't but they see it as a lesser evil in a way that Europeans (even Heroes of the good old Europe) can not understand/feel/aprehend. It's, in my opinion, a cultural or genetic trend.

If you see it in a non nihilist prespective, the Chinese are not "working against its Native (Han) population", they are indeed hardening. You can see all this "horrors" as a sort of eugenics in order to improve China to the future.

Europe, by the way, is doing exactly the opposite. Europe that had up until 1945 the superior Civilisation of Humanity in almost all levels one can recall, is now decadent and "inviting the world, both peoples who seem inferior and peoples which, if not inferior, have been Historical enemies".
That's called civilisation suicide.

So China seems to be "SUPERIOR" to Europe right now.

Also, concearning the "supra-humanity" of Chinese civilisation... China's rich culture and History can be compaired to Europe and Islam. And Chinese culture is way "SUPERIOR" to that of the African, Native Americans and Austronesian peoples. Also, the Southeast Asian peoples "achievments" would be close to zero if it weren't the cultural and (we better don't talk about the rest) loans from India and China; Also, what would be Japan if China did not exist? In a way, Japan is to China what America could be to Europe in 2000 years time. It says a lot about "Han Chinese SUPERIORITY".
Also, I can not see much superiority of North African, Turkic and (south) Arabic peoples in relation to China.
But, hey! How can one define superiority? Are't we all the same?

I do not agree with Conservative Swede at all. I am all for the Tibetans. Well... I was because the extintion of that people seem now unavoidable, especailly when leaded by the Dalai Lama.

I think that Conservative Swede's opinion is the reflex of what is wrong in the "so-called-anti-jihadi" movement.
It is so afraid of being called racist that it does not stand for Europe, the only "evil ethnic" it can see is the muslims. And as so, it blames the riots of France upon the muslims despite the fact that many of the "blacks" were from Christian countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo and some of them were indeed "to light and to blonde to be Morrocans", poor hard core anarchist leftist Native French youngsters.

It expresses more than pro-something, an hatred toward islam and the muslims.


"... are creating a situation that will, sooner or later, cause people to simply state that they've had enough. And it will be sooner than this "inevitable" demographic conquest that people keep going on about, simply because all the players are revealing their hand too soon"

Now imagine the people says: It's enough! What will happen then? Will they throw out all non native ethnics? Will they stick to the church and convert all the muslims by force?
The problem lies exactly in the fact that even if the populace screams "it's enough!" they are powerless to do any good.

Afonso Henriques said...

Conservative Sweden,

I tried not to answer you but you are starting to annoy me and I am glad you have the right to do so in such a great place as Gates of Vienna.

1st) "Why so aggressive against China? What about Spain and Catalonia and Basque country. France and Corsica. Italy and the South Tyrol province."

Despite this can be "provocative" or "telling" towards a more general public, I have to say that I am even more agressive concearning the basque and Catalan problematics. Corsica is different. When was Corsica really independent? Do they have such a different culture? Wouldn't Corsica be a relativeley easy target to the moors pirates? Italy, I love Italy, I don't care weather they have a smaller Greek or Germanic genetic imprint. They are all Italians. Are the people living there Germanics or Italics? Why the hell would that land be Italic or Germanic? We have to discern between a National carachter and pure opportunism. If the people of that area wants to become German and Austrians or the Germans want to govern it. Go to war people!

2sn) " regarding independence of Tibet (a leftist/liberal bandwagon you decided to jump upon)"

What do you know about History? Do you know how singular is the Tibetan culture and the Tibetan people? It is nothing of leftie in supporting the existance of a legitimate Nation you know. Do you want China to swallow Mongolia too? Who knows, maybe it will be leftist to argue that Russia has the right to maintain Siberia too...

3rd) You are always speaking of holocaust. It is an holocaust because it is the deliberate elimination of an entire people from their traditional homeland, sometimes resorting to killing.

Another people that annoyed me:

That beast, Kagrenac or something whoose nick remindes me an african word for elephant's sh*t.

"Because the Spanish haven't killed 1,2 million Catalans"

How can you be such an ignorant? Or maybe it is the exact number, 1,2 millions. Maybe I can kill all the Estonians once they are less than 12 hundred tousands... I will just live this link...

Spanish against Basques by Picasso. Now go learn something before open your mouth!

Another annoying figure: Turn!

"Various lefties have latched onto the 'free Tibet' meme and maybe some will come to realize that collectivism is not such a good idea."
Can you please tell me what is left wing in standing for Tibet? Was it leftist to stand for East Timor either? Well... I must be a communist son of a

a little bed story about China, from Portugal with love, by kalashnikov.
Tibet could have been saved.

Anonymous said...

Well, the Chinese civilization was superior to the western, that remains a fact. But then two things happened:

1) The European nations, driven by their greed and wish to exploit those they considered to be "inferior", began their colonization. They eventually found China. The British brought in the opium, additing thousands of Chinese. It went that far that China was almost occupied by the western countries and Japan (the Boxer Rebellion has it's reasons there). The Japanese were smarter there, old Tokugawa Ieyasu just threw the foreigners out of the country or had them executed (especially their priests).

2) Communism. That destroyed so much of the great Chinese culture and civilization, it's not even remotely funny. Mao is responsible for this. What is left today is an empty shell, people who protest against something when the government orders them to do so (as the "protests" against Japan always prove) and a government that pretends to play nice (while they're clearly not, but we never get to hear about it, simply because the Chinese government filters everything, and the media and politicians in democratic countries don't have balls).

A Tibetan independence is possible, sustainable and realistic. Just give them the means to defend themselves. Heck, there's India nearby.

And well, the Chinese have committed a cultural holocaust in Tibet.

And I always say: China went into Tibet like the Nazis went into Poland.

Mao has the blood of some 70 million Chinese on his hands. You think a few thousand Tibetans really matterd for him? Chinese troops have murdered, raped, plundered, burned. They behaved like elements of the Japanese army in Nanking.

livfreerdie said...

Could someone explain to me why it is okay for Kosovo but not Tibet?

Again with the "selective" double standard.


Henrik R Clausen said...

Of course Tibet is a viable State.

Not a matter of course... They have the Chinese all over the place, the majority in Tibet proper, and in control of lots of important stuff. The new railroad to China (none to India exists) is sure to bind Tibet even closer to China.

Further, Tibet has the problem that even though it was a self-ruling entity from 1913 to 1959, it never took the trouble to declare itself an independent state in the legal sense. That causes trouble, for China can formally claim that they're just a breakaway province, not an independent state.

The Chinese are cynical, in the Huntington sense, and will do what it takes to defend what it defines as China. I see no expansionist urge, but a really strong national identity that doesn't take lightly to being challenged.

All counted, and I have the deepest sympathy for the Tibetans, I see no realistic way they can just leave China. Chinese nationalism and the force put behind it is 10 X that of the Serbs, and they have no NATO / EU / USA doing high-tech interventions to support the Tibetans.

I believe in some degree of autonomy. And not least the right of the Tibetans to practice their culture unimpeded. A culture, BTW, that is said to draw significant interest from the Chinese.

Debbie said...

I just wanted to mention that the Dalai Lama himself says he is not for a sovereign Tibet.

Bottomline, China sucks. But they're truly the largest superpower on this planet and could very likely militarily crush just about anyone else - even sans Navy - which is why no one holds them accountable for their actions.

For Hillary to insist that Bush boycott the opening ceremonies for the Olympics is laughable. She wouldn't dare boycott the opening ceremonies if she were in his chair. It would be incredibly stupid if America were to suddenly take a moral stance against China, when we were just fine with their questionable morality as we borrowed money. They have us by the cojones.

Finally, I find it funny and sad that there are some who seem happy if a country is made up strictly of its "natives," even if the government is torturing and murdering them, as long as they're torturing and murdering the "outsiders" more.

China is scary and I see no possibility of taking them to task for the atrocities they commit.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pundita said...

URGENT REQUEST for "the doctor." Would you consider being a guest on a US-based radio show to expand on the observations you made in this comment section about your experiences in rural China?

If so, and if I can arrange it with John Loftus, the host of the show, you would have anywhere from 15 minutes to almost an hour to talk, depending on how much you wanted to talk.

You would be guaranteed anonymity if you have concerns about getting back into China after going on the radio with your observations. You would just call into the show and give a code number and they'd be waiting for your call. Kindly reply to my email:

Thank you for considering my request. It hardly needs mentioning that your account would be a great help in educating Americans about the situation in rural China. And things are informal enough on the Loftus Report, and Loftus is such a kind host, that you need not worry if you've never been on radio before.

Full disclosure: I have no connection with the show, although Loftus did invite me on a guest; he's a Pundita reader.

For all others:

So many thanks are due that I feel overwhelmed but at least I can say thanks to Baron for publishing my Tibet comments, thanks to Fjordman for his response, and thanks to all the commentators. The comments are so valuable that again, I feel overwhelmed. There's enough material here, just among the 19 comments I've reviewed so far, to provide enough material for a month's worth of blogs.

This happened to me once before at Gates of Vienna: I got so involved in answering criticisms that I did a blog on my replies. Then, just I published the post, I made the mistake of going back to GoV and I found a great comment by "Laine." At that point I put my foot down; I knew if I replied, I'd spend the next six months at the GoV comment section.

Which, I might add, is one reason I don't have a comment section. I love to dialogue, so I must sit hard on the temptation or give up writing for a blog.

That's my awkward way of conveying how much I appreciate this forum.

Conservative Swede, I took it for granted that everyone knew there had been a holocaust in Tibet. So I sat there with my jaw open for a full minute after reading your reply to my comments. I am not avoiding your question but why ask me, when you can Google terms such as "Tibetan holocaust" and read books and scholarly papers on the topic?

Some of your other comments raised what I consider to be a very important issue, which I will attempt to address. For now, I need to prioritize; this means writing the promised "second post" on GoV's impact, and answering Fjordman's comments, with which I have some dispute.

Baron Bodissey said...

Kagrenac --

Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum. Your comment violated the last of these rules. We keep a PG-13 blog, and exclude foul language, explicit descriptions, and epithets. This is why I deleted your comment.

Use of asterisks is an appropriate alternative.


Kagrenac said...

Afonso Henriques, you are deserving of ridicule.
Firstly, at least the Catalans that I mentioned are even more than the Tibetans ever were.
And then, yes, it is indeed about total numbers as well. When the Chinese killed around 1,2 million Tibetans how can you say that they are less "worth" than a FAR lesser number of Basque people even when the Basque do not have 1,2 million people to be killed at all?
Your comparison becomes even more ludicrous taking into consideration that Francos times are gone while the Chinese are STILL exterminating Tibetans.

Oh - and by the way, I have been a member at PI for years now, but I never managed to be called "a piece of s**t" or something similar. And that was exactly what you meant. But here, I was called just that now for my very first comment, hm, poor performance that you are obviously unable to discuss on a level other than that...
And you sounds like... erm... a Spaniard who is unable to spell his own name. However, don't be afraid, at least I won't insult you using ethnic offenses like you just did, d**khead.

Afonso Henriques said...


"Well, the Chinese civilization was superior to the western, that remains a fact. But then..."

Say what!!!

Well, superior is a word so strong...
I can not say that the Chinese civilisation is or was in a given era, superior to the European Civilisation.
Actually, I see the Chinese as lightly inferior but generally comparable, almost equal.

If you say that Chinese civilisation was superior to European civilisation, the least you could do is to lay some claims upon it.

In fact, Chinese Civilisation was so superior that it was colonised by (I believe) six European powers:
Great Brittain; Germany; France; The Netherlands; Portugal and I believe one Scandinavian Nation...
What a superiority!

"China went into Tibet like the Nazis went into Poland."
Well, the Germans went to Poland with some reason by their side, not only (but also) because it was nice to have a big Empire. So, for me, the Chinese are (far) worst than the Germans... even the worst Germans.

I must say I also agree wth Henrik but I believe Tibet COULD have been saved. We will now assist to the extintion of a wonderfull people and consequently, their culture. Multiculturalism is just for "the choosen ones".


"And then, yes, it is indeed about total numbers as well."
I agree after all. But you forgotten the "as well" mantra.

"how can you say that they are less "worth" than a FAR lesser number of Basque people even when the Basque do not have 1,2 million people to be killed at all?"

Because I take Europe as a more "evolved" espace. I think that in Asia, we have many tribes without representaion. I also think that in Europe we have better levels of "Human rights" or even morals so that it makes a more scandalous problem when concearning the Basques. Maybe am being too chauvinistic and seeing Asian peoples as somewhat savages but I think there is some truth in what I am saying.
Also, the Basques are an incredibly singular people. They are the only people in Western Europe that does not speak an Indo-European language, they have a cultural History as an individual people that predates Roman times and they are somehow "genetically distinct from other Europeans". They have a charming culture and Basque girls are much more beautifull than Tibetan ones.
The Tibetan are one of many Asian peoples that are going towards the extinction, the Basques are a "unique" people, even in Europe.
Also, everybody knows how barbaric China is, so it is not news. But Spain... nobody never criticises Spain... over theirs little empire.

"Your comparison becomes even more ludicrous taking into consideration that Francos times are gone while the Chinese are STILL exterminating Tibetans"

But the Basques had manage to go on... I can not imagine Tibet in two or three generations... I've already said that Tibet COULD have been saveed. The Basques can be saved.*

*well, with all that multiculturalism in Europe... maybe we should worry about the Basques too...

" and by the way, I have been a member at PI for years now..."

What?? What is PI? Sorry for my ignorance...

"I never managed to be called "a piece of s**t" or something similar. And that was exactly what you meant. But here, I was called just that now for my very first comment, hm, poor performance that you are obviously unable to discuss on a level other than that..."

You are right. I was incorrect and I am sorry. I really am. It really takes the level of this wonderfull place down, as well as our level and the level of the conversation. Sorry, once more.
But think of me of a disgraced drunk guy, sad with the world and all this brave new things...
My girlfriend also leave me recently so it wasn't me talking.
You are indeed right, sorry for my nasty behaviour.

"I won't insult you using ethnic offenses"

It was insulting, but it had not ethnic conotations. Sorry if that happens to be the case, it was not my intention, never, neither when I was being so "expansive".

"And you sounds like... erm... a Spaniard who is unable to spell his own name."

lol lol lol :)
Why not a Mexican?
Actually, many people here use(d) to call me "Alfonso" but in Spanish maybe it is Alfonzo, I don't know... the Henriques can not be Spanish... Maybe if you get the H out and manage to get a Z into it...

I am sorry for having misstreated you. I hope it will not happen again. We can diverge politely.

nikolai said...

I think the word "holocaust" is entirely appropriate for what is happening in Tibet -- or at least "ongoing holocaust".

The end result if it ever gets that far, which seems likely, is the complete eradication of the Tibetans and their culture. Can't really get more holocaustish than that.

The methodology of ethnic swamping may be slower and involve less killing but the end result is the same.

Doesn't look like there is much that can be done about it -- and the slow ethnic cleansing of my own country is more relevant to me -- but i'm still glad the Tibet fuss has happened as it reduces slightly the current grovelling to China for trade reasons.

Anonymous said...

Turn, thanks for blogging about the Chinese thugs in San Francisco. I'd like to add my own experience. I live in the SF Bay Area but wasn't present in SF during the Olympic torch run, but I witnessed something as ominous as the Chinese secret police on our streets. The San Francisco Chronicle is one of my daily reads, and I'm a longterm and frequent commenter on its online edition, During the week or so of the torch coverage, I noticed some new commenters, obviously Chinese with a very, very poor command of English, not the usual Chinese-American or immigrant commenters whose English may not be perfect, but they've been here a while and are part of this community. Well, these new commenters would write things like, why do you criticize China, you are ignorant, people all over the world love the Olympics, you are wrong. Rhetoric on that level, over and over, in atrocious English. Other commenters observed that the new people were obviously Chinese operatives. One of the worst comments I read went something like, how can you object to the Chinese being in Tibet. You Americans should leave North America, because you aren't from here, the Indians are. This is what the Chinese believe. They're being brainwashed that they have more of a right to America than we have. I'm not doing justice to the comments, I wish I'd copied them, some of the threads may still be up, but the Chron deletes anything that doesn't support leftism, so this type of evidence often goes missing. But frankly, I found the past week's comments section chilling, the virtual equivalent of seeing the Chinese government goons harassing protestors on the streets of San Francisco.

Anonymous said...

After the Western world is finished being "strengthened" by "diversity", China will have its pick of whatever of our countries it wants, including the US. The Muslims and the Mexicans won't be the final victors, they are only the vector that weakens the host up for the fatal, secondary infection.

Sodra Djavul said...

This is truly an interesting topic, and certainly a controversial one.

I, like many here, have no love of the powers that be in the Chinese government.

However, it should be pointed out that never did a minority people (as "Tibetans" are in Tibet proper) achieve independence without violence. While everyone loves to point to India as an example, it was not a movement by a minority group (in that Hindus were the majority), and the nation as a whole was never strong enough to maintain its borders once created (i.e. the formation of Pakistan, the ongoing Kashmir issue, etc.).

Rightly or wrongly, the reality is that might does indeed make right. When that might is focused toward Western ideals such as individual freedom (again NOT the same ideal as democracy), what you end up with is similar to the United States and Australia, and to some degree European countries although that seems to be shifting. When the might is focused toward collectivism, you end up with communist governments such as China or Cuba. Collectivism dictates the subordination of the individual to the collective, so "oppression" should pretty much be considered a given under such a system.

As for Tibet, I say let the Tibetans choose through the path of action. It is becoming increasingly violent, but as many other posters have pointed out, if they are unable to properly acquire their independence through force of arms, they would be unable to maintain it when others show interest. India currently sports the largest bureacracy in the world and is still subject to routine domestic terrorism. Not exactly a case study of excellence there.

- Sodra