Sunday, August 22, 2010

The Holy Father and Turkish Incoherence

Below is another “lost” article by Sergei Bourachaga, which was first published in 2006 but is no longer available on the internet after the collapse of CCD’s site. Mr. Bourachaga says, “Prior to the visit of the pope to Turkey I wrote an essay on that country. It might give your readers a better understanding of how the Turkish psyche works.”

Turkey — protests against the pope

The Holy Father and Turkish Incoherence
by Sergei Bourachaga

My first encounter with the Turks was on Sept.12, 2001 while on a business trip to Turkey to promote the services of a Russian company. I was tired from the long journey that started several days earlier in Moscow, but instead of having a nap after refreshing myself in my hotel room, I decided to go to one of the popular coffee shops of Istanbul, and attempt to gauge the reaction of the average person on the street to the jihadists’ attack on the Twin Towers in New York.

I was convinced that this move would allow my body to adjust itself to the local time zone, and help me establish a firsthand experience with a nation I had studied extensively in different academic institutions in Russia. Ironically, years of studies in different universities of the Soviet Union failed to yield a solid grasp of what gives the Turks their unique ability to balance contradictions in the external and internal political arena, as well as in the religious realm. This balancing act projects to the West the questionable but strongly convincing image that Turkey is a reliable partner, ready to protect Western interests in the Middle East, and simultaneously alleviates the distrust of 300 million Muslim Arabs by insisting that Turkey will never sell Islam out to Western infidels — who are destined to perish in the lowest recesses of hell, according to the Koran.

I stepped into a coffee shop a few blocks away from the hotel, and within seconds I heard the loud voice of the shop’s owner/manager conveying to a waiter in Turkish the following instruction: “Ahmad, bak gavour ne istior”. In plain English: “Ahmad, see what the infidel wants”.

To me this was a strong evidence that decades of secularism — or projecting to the rest of the world the image without any substance of secularism — Turkey’s so-called secular governmental institutions failed to change the worldview of the average Turk, who is very proud of his Islamic heritage and the faith that gave the Islamic world the Seljuk Khan Alparslan. It was Alparslan who in 1071 defeated the Byzantine army in the battle of Manzikert and gradually paved the way for the establishment of the Ottoman Empire in the fourteenth century, an empire that propelled the Turks and Islam to glorious heights, almost crushing the European continent under the banner of the Prophet Mohamed.

I requested a Turkish coffee in English and Russian to reinforce the impression entertained by the owner, the waiter, and the other patrons of the coffee shop, that the Russian gavour did not understand Turkish. While waiting for the order to arrive, I tuned my ears to the joyful conversation that was going on at the next table, where four young Turks in their mid-twenties were debating the issue of who would be buying the next round of tea and “Baklava” (Turkish sweet), in celebration of the victory scored by the “Martyrs of Islam” in New York.

It was obvious from the political views exchanged by the four Turks that the humiliation inflicted on America by a small group of Muslim shahids dedicated to the will of Allah was long overdue. After all, Turks, like the rest of the Islamic world, were absolutely convinced that the economic and social evils Turkey was suffering from in the beginning of the new millennium have been inflicted on Turkey by successive American administrations who wanted Turkey to trade its Islamic values and worldview for a set of corrupt democratic principles designed to protect American hegemony in the region.

But what shocked me the most was not the explicit hatred the young Turks harbored for America, and every single value connected to the American way of life. It was the big million-dollar question all four Turks tried to figure out: Would the events of 9/11 affect negatively their immigration applications submitted to American authorities, and harm the heavy financial sacrifices invested in that project?
- - - - - - - - -
I could not fathom the depth of the contradictions I was hearing. In a state of bewilderment I tried to make sense of the entire conversation, until my thoughts were abruptly interrupted by the waiter who placed my Turkish coffee on the table followed by a glass of water. This interruption made me realize that I am using a Western rational approach to understand a collective psyche shaped and conditioned by Islamic values and principles clearly stated in the Koran. I remembered that Muslims are encouraged to practice al-taqiyya, which means that believers can pretend to be something they are not, can lie or conceal an intention as a preventive measure of self-defense, or to protect Islam, or to neutralize threats faced by oneself or loved ones. God issued the following instructions to Muslims: “Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful. He that does this has nothing to hope from Allah-except in self-defence.” (Koran 3:28).

The Koran also points out to the Muslims that the falsehoods uttered by believers to the rest of the world (the unbelievers/gavours/infidels, people of the book) will not be held against them by Allah on the Judgment Day. The Most Merciful will only scrutinize the thoughts and values that lie unobserved and unsuspected in the hearts and minds of the true believers (Muslims only).

For the four Turks, moving to America was an act of economic survival/self-defense. Once well-established in the heartland of the Great Satan that persecutes and oppresses Muslims all over the world, it would be easier for young Turkish Muslims to destroy the enemy from within — a dream openly conveyed to the US media by Omar M Ahmad of CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations): “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.”

Mr. Ahmed’s statements are in absolute harmony with the thoughts of Ayman al Zawahiri (#2 of Al Qaida), who boasted in his latest video released to the media on Sept.29, 2006 that:

“We (Al Qaida), by the grace of Allah, are seeking to exact revenge on behalf of Islam and Muslims from you (Mr. George W. Bush) and your soldiers and allies (Europe). We call upon Benedict the Sixteenth and all of the Christians to become Muslims who do not recognize the Trinity or the crucifixion of Issa Ibn Mariam (Jesus), or face the mighty sword of the Prophet (Mohamed)”.

One wonders if these statements made by different Muslim figures are not in fact part of a well-orchestrated global plan to destroy Christianity, first on the European continent and then in the empire of Satan-America. The incoherence of the four Turks at the next table overshadows the fact that their mentality of hatred of Christians and Jews is widespread in the Muslim world.

Mustafa Kemal AtatürkIncoherence has also been a primary trait of the Turkish foreign policy since the emergence of modern Turkey in the early 1920s. Though the founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, was determined to sever the ties of the new “Republic” with its Ottoman past and Islamic legacy, and despite draconian efforts to distance the Turkish state from Islamic influence, the population’s resistance to change and dedication to the glorious Islamic past remained very strong.

To avoid major unrest in the country during the late 1930s, his successor, president Ismet Inonu, had to take into serious consideration the dominant anti-Jewish sentiments in Turkey’s neighboring Arab countries in particular, and the Muslim world in general.

Allah had clearly told Muslims in the Koran, “You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews (Koran 5:82)”. This verse was the rallying cry of the hero of Palestine and Arab nationalism, Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

From 1936 to 1939 the Grand Mufti masterminded and led a popular revolt in Palestine against the Jewish population of the country and the British Army, who were depicted as the invaders of the Holy Land. Before slaughtering innocent Jews, angry Muslim mobs chanted: “Allah akbar, el yom el sabt wa boukra el ahad”. English translation: “God is great, today Saturday and tomorrow Sunday”. In other words today we will slaughter those who celebrate the Lord’s day on Saturday (the Jews), and once we are done with the Jews we will settle the score with those who celebrate the Lord’s day on Sunday (the Christians).

The Grand MuftiAccording to documents from the Nuremberg trials, the Grand Mufti requested financial and military aid from his close friend Adolf Eichmann “to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy”.

Based on the realities of the Arab world in 1939, Turkey refused to fight Nazi Germany and Mussolini’s Italy. On June 18,1941 the Turkish State signed the “German-Turkish Friendship Agreement”. Turkey continued to trade freely with Nazi Germany, providing vital material badly needed to sustain the Nazi war machine, up until February 23, 1945 when serious threats from the Allies to blockade Turkey, forced the Turkish to declare war on Germany, approximately 3 months before the end of the war on the European theatre, and without committing a single soldier to the war efforts of the Allies.

Nazi Germany deposited in the Turkish Central Bank several tons of gold looted by the German Army from countries invaded during the different phases of military operations in Europe and Jewish Holocaust victims. Since 1946 the Tripartite Commission (formed by the United States, Britain, and France), whose sole task has been the recovery and redistribution of the looted gold to the legitimate owners or their successors, has failed to recover anything from Turkey. In a report published at the end of a conference held in London on December 4,1997, the Commission pointed out that after five decades of relentless hunt for the gold stolen by the Nazis, “Four neutral countries in World War Two handed back less than 20 percent of the looted Nazi gold estimated to be stashed in their banks. Turkey never repaid a penny of the millions of dollars in looted bullion.”

Turkish incoherence has occupied also a prominent role in Turkish internal politics. Technically the country was classified as a modern democracy, where the ruler and the laws governing the country must reflect the popular will. Every time the popular will strayed away from the likes and dislikes of the Turkish Army, military coups were imposed to tune the popular will by the power of the gun and make it more compatible with the thoughts and dictates of the Turkish General Staff. Today a precarious balance, closely monitored by the Turkish Army, exists between Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s Islamic Party and the pro-secular opposition group. The present reality worries the European Union, where military coups are non-existent, and most leaders have no answer to the following question: “Isn’t it a mockery of democracy when the power of the gun dictates who can or cannot have control of the State?”.

Of course, everyone knows the incoherence of Turkey as it concerns helping the US and Britain in introducing democracy to Iraq. Initially Turkey paid lip service to the US, and promised to provide all kinds of logistical support to the US expeditionary force. A few days before the invasion of Iraq, Turkey reversed its position and even banned the use of its air space to any aircraft connected to the activities of the US Army in Iraq. Turkey insisted that the Koran explicitly forbids Muslims to kill fellow Muslims, and “Believers (Muslims) are a band of brothers. Make peace among your brothers and fear Allah.” as the Prophet Mohamed instructed the faithful in 49:10.

On October 8, 2006 the Apostolic Vicar of Anatolia, Bishop Luigi Padovese, announced to the media that “tensions caused last month by the Pope’s Regensburg address have calmed, and that the Holy Father’s visit to Turkey is a welcomed event.”

Holy Father, what are you trying to achieve by visiting Turkey? Obtain municipal permits to renovate your churches that are in dismal condition, due to decades of discriminatory policies adopted by the municipal authorities of Turkey against Christian edifices? Give up on your meager possessions in Turkey if you don’t want St. Peter’s Basilica to become the Mosque of Sultan Mohamed el Ghazi, the way St. Sofia cathedral in Istanbul was converted to a mosque after the city fell into the care of the Ottoman Turks.

Remember, in return for symbolic concessions, Turkey will manipulate you to lobby the European Union on its behalf, and convince countries such as France and Germany, to dismiss their reluctance and endorse Turkey’s bid to join the European Union. Remember what Oriana Fallaci (peace be upon her soul) told you during her private meeting about the huge catastrophic demographic imbalance that will engulf the European continent if Turkey succeeds in joining the EU. Do the math properly before you put the Vatican and Europe on a disastrous collision course with Islam. Presently you have 50 million Muslims on the European continent. That number will become 125 million if you add the 75 million Turks impatiently waiting to join the EU. According to official statistical figures released this year in Europe, the average Christian couple’s reproduction rate is 1.2, while Muslim couples have a reproduction rate of 3.4. In less than one generation (18 years), the numerical superiority of Muslims will make the Koran a required reading for all students from Grade 5 to grade 12, and your aging priests will have to master the Arabic language, the language of God, to preach Islam. By the way Arabic is a very difficult language, especially if a priest has to learn it after the age of sixty. Those who resist forced conversion to Islam and remain alive will be unemployed.

Remember what the devout Muslim Colonel Ghadafi, the great leader of Libya, said to the media: “There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe-without swords, without guns, without conquests; the fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades”.

Remember the speech of the former Algerian President Houari Boumedian: “One day millions of men will leave the Islamic world to go to the Northern hemisphere (Europe). They will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us (the Moslem Ummah) victory”. Remember what your Bishops reported to you after they returned from their last interfaith meeting with Moslem clerics in Turkey. Read the passage in the report that clearly says: “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you. Thanks to our Islamic laws and Allah willing, we will conquer you”.

Remember: interfaith dialogue has no meaning with a faith (Islam) whose revelations you have not accepted. You will be punished by Allah, who said to the prophet Mohamed: “Leave to Me those that deny this revelation (Koran). We will lead them step by step to their ruin, in ways beyond their knowledge. I shall bear long with them: My stratagem is sure” (Koran 68:45). As far as Islam is concerned your blasphemy is unforgivable. You and your Christian followers have made the founder of Christianity, Issa Ibn Mariam, the Son of God. No genuine respect can ever be extended to you, the gavour who promotes falsehood, because the Koran warns true Muslims to: “admonish those that say that Allah has begotten a son. Surely of this they could have no knowledge, neither they nor their fathers: a monstrous blasphemy is that which they utter. They preach nothing but falsehoods.” (Koran 18:3)

Last but not least, Holy Father, remember what Mr. Salih Kapusuz, deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said about your place in history. You, the Pope, are “going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini”. Holy Father, Mr. Kapusuz will be very uncomfortable in the presence of a fake Hitler who does not carry in his heart and mind the genuine interest of the Turkish people. Before you go, it would be a good idea to divert some of the gold reserves owned by the Vatican (estimated at 3.5 billion dollars by the NY Times), to the Central Bank of Turkey. But then again you won’t be able to command any respect from such visionary Turkish politicians such as Mr. Kapusuz. For he has memorized what Allah has instructed him and the rest of the Muslim Ummah: “Do you fear them (the unbelievers who did not accept Islam)? Surely Allah is more worthy of your fear, if you are true believers. Make war on them: Allah will chastise them through you and humble them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the spirit of the faithful.” (Koran 9:14)

Holy Father, I bet you that you will be humbled by your trip to Turkey, but between now and the start of your journey, pray to the Lord and ask him to deliver the Turks from their own incoherence. Remember also what you said to the Italian media on October 11, 2006: “The path of dialogue, so necessary, must not make us forget the duty to rethink and to witness always with as much force the guidelines of our Christian identity that cannot be given up”. Just out of curiosity, how much of your Christian identity are you willing to give up to become a good Muslim in the eyes of the Turkish Government and the Muslim Ummah?

Previous posts by Sergei Bourachaga:

2008 May 28 The Koran and The Psychopathology of The Prophet (Part I)
2010 Aug 14 The Koran and the Psychopathology of the Prophet (Part II)
    18 The Koran: A “Holy Book” or Hate Literature?


Dymphna said...

Yes, it would be good for the Pontiff to remember and act accordingly.

That inane attempt to plaster over the bloody assassination of Bishop Padovese as the act of a temporary insanity makes the church a laughing stock.

It would do the church a world of good to quit hiding the truth. For a change.

I have lost any hope I had for this new Pontiff. A scholar in history and he wants us to buy this lame excuse for the assassin of one of his own flock?

The doctors who performed the autopsy reveal that Mgr. Padovese had knife wounds all over his body, but especially in the heart (at least 8). His head was almost completely detached from his neck, attached to his body by only the skin of the back of the neck...

...What comfort you deny those who still live to serve in countries where Christianity is hated.

You ought to be preparing a case for canonization of Msgr. Padovese, sir, instead of playing inept diplomat.

This is a disgrace and it fools no one.

Juniper in the Desert said...

Thanks for posting this; very important information!

Profitsbeard said...


The pontiff began strongly, quoting the Byzantine remark about Islam bringing nothing new to the religious quest but Terror and The Sword, athough he has gone mute since the predictable backlash which that accurate remark instigated from the Ummah.

I prefer Dante's estimate of Mohammad over any recent religious figure's or current writer's.

And Rodin's depiction. [8th image down.]

EscapeVelocity said...

There is a good story on the Orthodox Church Pontiff who maintains offices in Istanbul that was on 60 minutes last week.

However a direct link to the story has been removed.

But here is the link to the entire show...

60 Minutes

Anonymous said...

It's for posts like this that GoV should be relentlessly searched by robots of higher learning institutions, and carefully archived for future generations.

America at its finest.

Svartwulf said...

Normally, my attitude toward Christianity can best be described as a Hate from Old Times. My own heathen background, culture, and religion predisposes me to having rather extreme feeling towards Christianity in particular, and monotheism in general. I doubt this will ever truly change. Nor will it for the larger Pagan and Heathen communities.

That said, this site in particular has helped me to realize that while Christianity is still a threat to my religion (as it advocates the eradication of Paganism), Islam is a far worse enemy than Christianity and in the same way as my Heathen kin of old, I seek to aid the fight to stop Islam just as they did at Byzantium, Tours, Al Andulus, and many other places.

That said, even if the weakening of Christianity is what has allowed the revival of the oldest ways on earth, it is a shame to see the strongest force against Islam be carved up without out a fight. I had hopes that the new pope would be a man of force, but it seems he is little more than another old man given a fancy title in his old age.

The Muslims say we are the Great Satan. I don't agree, and I can't say much about Lucifer except I respect his guts.

If the Christian God and his followers are not able to help Atheists, Pagan, Heathens, and all others and our Gods and Goddesses, then perhaps his old advisory will. At this point, survival is needed, and our allies are few. We must take who we can get.

I give hail to the Gods of my people, the Aesir. I give hail to the Gods of other peoples, like the Olympians.

And for a rare occasion I will give one more, just to mess with those Muslims.

Hail Satan!

EscapeVelocity said...

It should be noted that since the OP piece was written, the Turkish Military has been stopped from insuring the secular nature of the government. The high military offical coup plotters were arrested, and their Constitutional duty the Islamist government of Ergodan's AK Parti.

Professor L said...

Dymphna, I think you missed the introduction. This article was from 2006. Mgr Padovese only died this year. Therefore, unless a time machine was on hand, no mention can be made of this murder.

However, I do agree that the Church needs to start making a fuss about these things. Making a fuss in the West is easy, but making a fuss in the Middle East... not so much.

I am Catholic myself, and am really beginning to acquaint myself with my own faith. We are told to make disciples of all the nations, and surely it would not be wrong for us to demand that our priests be permitted to do as Christ commanded them (and C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity would need to be required reading for all priests going there, particularly where he says outright that Christ didn't leave it to us to decide whether He was just a good teacher. He was either exactly who He said He was, or He was evil or deluded).

Much as I dislike Mussolini and his policies, he certainly got it right when he told the Saudis that they could have their Roman mosque when he had his Meccan Cathedral.

EscapeVelocity said...

Turkey, from Ally to Enemy - Commentary Magazine

Russkiy said...

My exposure and realisation about Islam and Muslims came on the 11th of September 2001 when my Arab classmates entered cheerfully the classroom saying things like party at my place tonight...

Jedilson Bonfim said...

Coincidence or not, today I came across quite an interesting article about Erdoganistan a few minutes before I started reading this one.

While the main topic of the article is Erdoclown's foreign policy, the author also offers some interesting insights into what goes on in that Western-ally-in-name-only in people's daily lives, as a means of getting the reader used to what goes on in the minds of the Turks (i.e., the fact that they do not, have never, and will never think like us.) Right at the beginning of the piece, I was presented with something that anyone who's been there has got to know all too well:

My friend is right, and his comment suggests a point about Turkish culture that I doubt many Westerners grasp. People here—and, I would guess, throughout the Middle East and Mediterranean, though Turkey is the only country I know well—see “truth” as something plastic, connected more to emotions than to facts or logic. If it feels true, it is true. What’s more, feelings here tend to change very quickly—and with them, the truth.

Take, for instance, my former landlord. Last year, my apartment was burgled. Under Turkish law, if your apartment is burgled, you have the right to insist that your landlord install bars on your windows. When I put this to my landlord, he objected, screaming violently, as so often people here do for no reason any American would accept as legitimate. First, my landlord screamed, there was no risk of burglary: there had never before been a burglary in our neighborhood. (Actually, our neighborhood was notorious for it.) Second, he screamed, to install bars would create a hazard: burglars would use them to climb up to the second floor. He offered both arguments in the same sentence. He was unperturbed by the obvious problem with his line of reasoning.

And this little bit here sure ought to bring back haunting memories of your blood boiling if you've ever lived there:

“Long-term thinking,” however, is not really a Turkish trait. If something works for the next two hours, many a Turkish repairman has assured me, that’s good enough. Foreigners here have a word for the kind of jerry-rigged system Turks like to construct rather than building something that might still work in ten years’ time: Turknology. My apartment is full of Turknological wonders: wires that for the moment seem to be conveying electricity, even if I dare not touch them; windows that at least serve to keep the rain out, though they cannot be opened.

Cyrus said...

It would appear that "Turknology" may be one of that wretched nation's downfalls.
For more info on the maltreatment of Christians in the Levant people should read Dalrymple's "From the Holy Mountain".

Anonymous said...

Russkiy : in what country was that, if I'm not being nosy ?

Anonymous said...


Yes, Christianity is against paganism, but Christians don't go around killing pagans for not converting.

Svartwulf said...

Actually Natalie, they did. I recommend you check your history. Even the Christian sources admit they slaughtered Pagans and Heathens for not converting.

One of the most famous (as well as having a high probablility of causing the entire Viking Age of Raiding) was at Verden, where the Frankish King Charlemagne forcibly converted and the slaughtered 4500 Germanic Pagans. This was merely the crowning moment of his campaign to forcibly convert the Saxons, making them Christian and completely wiping out their culture and religion, all in the Name of Christ. So too were the conversions of Scandinavia by the sword, a two hundred plus year process that saw many dead in the name of Christ, and only succeeded with the most ruthless of tactics. It was the same with the Baltic and Slavic crusades, with the Slavs being the only ones who managed to hold out until the end of the Crusading era with their pagan customs.

This is, of course, not even counting the constant and systematic which hunts and inquisitions that continued long after Europe had formally become Christian and wiped out the ancient pagan traditions.

Now, it is true that Christians don't go around killing Pagans in the modern era. That said, that is not from lack of desire to, mind you, listen to any Christian sermon about magic, paganism, or similarly related topics and you will be inundated with cries of how they are devil worship and should be destroyed. The only reason they don't do it now is because there are equally powerful forces in the West that prevents them from being able to hunt down Pagans. Should the balance of power change, I would not be surprised to see Christians bringing back their Witch and Pagan hunts in order to purge "their lands" of the evil that is destroying them. Or in the name of "Saving our Souls" as was the excuse in the past.

I speak these words not in hate, but out of a pragmatic understanding of where my Heathen religion stands in relation to the Monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The ancient Pagans and Heathens failed to realize what a God who declared utmost supremacy and that he was the only true god meant. We, their descendants, paid the price for that ignorance and are determined not to let that happen again to our own descendants. I myself can attest that the only reason I don't go after Christianity more, is because I have realized that Islam is currently the larger threat.

EscapeVelocity said...

Perhaps Christians should go after the Pagans more earnestly...after we deal with Islam. Because they seem to have gotten quite uppity lately. This Christian tolerance is the reason we currently have problems with Islam to deal with. It was misguided.

Svartwulf said...

EV, thank you for proving my point.

Seriously, I am amazed. Nothing I, nor any other pagan, nor perhaps even our Gods and Goddesses, could have done more to prove the truth of my words than what you just said.

We Pagans and Heathens are uppity for holding high our rights to worship our ancient gods and their ways, despite the fact that our religions predate Christianity by eons. I fear you have placed a Doom upon us all Escape Velocity, a Doom where brother will fight brother and sister will fight sister.

I have only this to say.

Let The Gods Decide

EscapeVelocity said...

You are the one talking about Going After Christianity, mate.

Apparently the irony, flew right over your head.

pacificwaters said...

"I myself can attest that the only reason I don't go after Christianity more, is because I have realized that Islam is currently the larger threat."

I no more want Christian fundamentalists to run the world than I want muslims too. The point is that though there may be voices of hate in the Christian right they have very little credibility within Christianity itself and pose very little threat. Islam poses a major threat.

Anonymous said...

NorseAlchemist, I'm well aware that Christians killed pagans throughout history. I was talking about now, the present day, and I still stand by what I said.

There's quite a difference between thought and deed. I'm sure there are Christians out there who think pagans deserve to die--but the important thing is that they do not act on these thoughts. Muslims are a different story. They think we infidels should die and then do their best to make sure we end up in such a state.

X said...

This is, of course, not even counting the constant and systematic which hunts and inquisitions

Actually you'll find that they were sporadic and disorganised. The most organised was the spanish inquisition, which killed fewer people in three centuries than died of plague in one year in England.

This is not to say that Christians get off scot-free, as there have been terrible things done in the name of the church, but I think you rather over-egg the pudding with your claims of systematic slaughter.

Svartwulf said...

Natalie, you will notice that I did say Christians were not currently hunting down pagans and killing them. They are, however, still desecrating Pagan holy sites, as evidenced by the destruction of a sacred pagan space on a military base just a few years ago.

EV's comment, which I hope everyone noticed, however, shows that this peace is a fragile thing. Pacificwaters, it would be easy to write off EV as a hatemonger of the far right Christian sort, but as we do not know more about him, statistically speaking he is more likely to be your average Christian caught up in his own zeal. And considering the ones I most often see calling for the ending of Pagans are the Televangelists who have millions and millions of followers, you will forgive me if I don't write of such hate as coming from just a few radicals.

EV, no irony flew over my head. There is a great difference between a small number of pagans insisting that we have the right to worship our gods, and Christians insisting that Pagans must be "dealt with." No pagan, however much we despise Christianity (or Islam) is going to insist that a follower of those religions be denied their right to worship. This is because we don't care what gods or goddesses you worship, so long as we may worship the ones we choose. A highly different stance, than Christianity or Islam, which insist that all other gods are false and must be destroyed.

When I, or any other Pagan that I know of, goes after Christianity or Islam, it is the ideology we fight, not the people. Sadly, the same cannot be said of Christians and Muslims, when they go after Pagans.

EscapeVelocity said...

Quick review...

NorseAlchemist said:

Us Pagans are going after Christianity, but we are currently focused on Islam, so we will declare a hudna with Christianity.

EV the Christian said in response...

Perhaps Christians should go after Pagans....since they are going after us.

NorseAlchemist replied

See, I told you those Christians were bad news....just like I said.

Conclusion: Christians should stand there and take attacks from Pagans without responding, and if they do respond, then that just shows them to be the evil bastards that Pagans know them to be.


And by the way, Pagans have a long history of slaughtering "the Other" including Christians.

So what it comes down to is, you pick your side and you fight to the death.

See you on the battlefield (of ideas or otherwise).

EscapeVelocity said...

PS - NorseAlchemist has that victimization narrative down pat. He has learned well from the New Leftist Identity Politics masters.

Just another enemy of Western Christian Civilization.

EscapeVelocity said...

Perhaps it would be useful to look at the Gays situation.

On the one hand we have Christians that are opposed to the behavior, seeing it as detrimental to society and morally wrong. However they tolerate the behavior in their countries. But they oppose promotion of it in schools and legitimization of the behavior via marriage.

Its the difference between tolerance and legal and material aid by government and society.

However that doesnt stop people from claiming that Christians are intolerant of homosexuality. And that anyone that opposes teaching homosexuality in schools and gay marriage is a hatefilled bigot who wishes to execute homos. (the Norse Alchemist formulation for the difference between tolerance and legitimization).

Then you have Islam in which homos are executed.

Svartwulf said...

If I have the "Victimization narrative" of the New Left down pat, then I can only respond that EV has the We Are The Righteous attitude down pat as well.

Honestly though, I have merely stated the history of Christian/Pagan relations. If Pagans end up looking like the victims, it is not by our deeds. We historically fought not to be the victim. History bears out what happened.

It is true, Pagans did kill Christians. I have not denied that. But let us look at when Pagans killed Christians. In the case of the Germanic and Celtic peoples, it was only when Christians first started to force Christianity on them and wipe out their culture. In the Case of the Romans, Christians were viewed as a dangerous cult that proposed the over throw of the Roman Government and had shades of incest in its practice (arising from the Christian practice of calling each other Brother and Sister and their prayer sessions as love ins.)

Oh, and by the way EV, way to misrepresent your own words to make yourself look better.

EV the Christian said in response...

Perhaps Christians should go after Pagans....since they are going after us.

I believe your original statement was:

Perhaps Christians should go after the Pagans more earnestly...after we deal with Islam. Because they seem to have gotten quite uppity lately.

There is a very, very big difference between going after Pagan because we are attacking your religion so that we might worship our own in peace, and going after Pagans because we are "uppity."

It is true, I am an enemy of "Western Christian Civilization." That is because I am an heir to Western Civilization, The Western Civilization that brought us Freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, the rights of Life, Liberty, and Property. The Western Civilization that brought for Democratic and Republic style governments. I am an enemy to Ideologies that insist Man is Evil, and can only be redeemed by becoming a slave to a god that declares supremacy in all matters.

If that makes me a bad person, to stand for freedom, then I will happily wear the name of Evil.

EV, you wish to claim that Christianity is tolerant, while proclaiming that being tolerant is the very problem and should be ended. I have never said Christianity should just take the attacks. All I have held is that Christianity did some pretty horrible things and that has lead to a great deal of well deserved resentment, not just from Pagans, but as you mentioned the Gay community, others have mentioned the Jewish community, and several other groups as well.

You seem to be implying that I am confusing tolerance with legitimization. WE don't need you to legitimize us. In fact, many take pride in the fact that Christianity doesn't legitimize us. Not because we are "Victims" but because we refuse to be victims anymore.

Sean O'Brian said...

Now, it is true that Christians don't go around killing Pagans in the modern era. That said,that is not from lack of desire to...The only reason they don't do it now is because there are equally powerful forces in the West that prevents them from being able to hunt down Pagans.

Speculation. What's more, I don't believe it. I get the impression that if Christians don't try and hunt you down you'll be vaguely disappointed. At this point I wouldn't be surpised if some Albigensian commenters showed up and started complaining about their shoddy treatment at the hands of Christians. Since we're already off-topic NorseAlchemist can I ask if you've read The Tain and how do you think it compares to other pagan epics? If not, it's definitely something you'd like.

EscapeVelocity said...

Do you think that American states and governments should acquiesce to Satanists demands that they be aided in observance of their "faith and religion" in prisons NorseAlchemist?

Is rejection of that by a Christian Majority nation, wrong and intolerant?

Im not talking about the Satanist doing his own thing, but his demand that the state aid him by special accomodation.

EscapeVelocity said...

PS - Is the Jewish State of Israel now earning some well deserved resentment from Muslims, Arabs, Christians, Messianic Jews(like Jews for Jesus) and a whole host of others?

Because that is the formulation that you are using on Christian and Christian majority nations and peoples.

Anyways, by all means declare yourself an enemy of Christianity. Its good that people are clear about where they stand, so that their is no misunderstanding upon which policy is made.