Monday, December 10, 2007

“The Western World Needs to Stand up Now”

Jan III SobieskiI received an email yesterday from a reader named Babs who had Blogger log-in problems and was unable to comment at Gates of Vienna. I offered to post her comment for her, but there was some confusion about which post she wanted her comment to be on. By the time the issue was clarified in a second email, the threads had moved on.

However, Babs’ comments are worth reading, so I’m giving them their own post.

Her take on these recent issues is lucid and sane, and shows that not all Americans are ignorant and/or unhinged about the ghosts of European fascism:

Sunday December 9th

I have found this entire discussion to be somewhat surreal. I stopped reading comments at LGF over 18 months ago because wading through the asinine to get at the gems wasn’t worth my time. I have used the site for headlines mostly.

I did however, go through some of the comments to CJ’s latest attack on Fjordman and did actually learn something. That is that CJ agrees with most of what Bat Ye’or says but does not agree with a European/Arab conspiracy right after the 70’s oil shock in which the Arab nations demanded that the EU accept their excess population in return for a stable oil flow. I guess this type of back room dealing is inconceivable to CJ. Were I to comment on his site I would point out the 76 billion dollars of potential oil contracts the EU negotiated with Iraq during the OFF embargo… Yeah, absolutely no precedent to the EU making back room deals in the Middle East…

On the issue of the Celtic cross… This one has really had me wondering what kind of insanity people buy into these days. Just this morning I was looking at my little home town paper and an ad was posted for our local medical lending charity. They lend out wheel chairs and stuff to local community members in short term need of these types of medical supplies. Guess what their logo was? A Celtic cross!

I am of Irish descent and I own several Celtic crosses. I think they are beautiful. Maybe I am stupid but, it actually took me a couple of weeks to even understand what the issue was, as the Celtic cross has been around for an awfully long time, it is a symbol of my heritage, and that the usurpation of that historic image by a small group could cause such an uproar that anyone displaying a Celtic cross had to be suspect of white supremacy. I think this site has given enough evidence of the Celtic cross becoming a symbol of national identity that, unless one wants to paint the entire Flemish people as unacceptable, there are enough headstones and monuments to attest to the fondness for the Celtic cross as a national religious symbol… and nothing more. I think this discounts completely the association of Flemish pride in culture with some type of fascist state..

The problem I see is the unwillingness of an American web site to separate the idea of culture from ethnic identity. In the US, we have the expectation that all ethnic people will retain some part of their former identity but will integrate themselves into the “American” culture. To say otherwise would fly in the face of 200 years of history. The fact that things are slowly breaking down in this regard is something that many Americans are just waking up to.

Nevertheless, it is mandatory to espouse these thoughts as our country is one of immigrants and, if the system breaks down entirely we will have anarchy. The U.S. is a very large country and the breakdown of this system is hard to detect in most people’s minds.

OTOH, the nation states of the EU are under siege not only from a flood of different cultures but from their very own governments and this is causing noticeable change in everyone’s lives. The concept that immigrants move to another region and adopt the culture of that region seems to be lost. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that the crux of your entire argument; that rather than have the native population absorb and acknowledge new members of their culture they are now being asked to change their culture to acknowledge the new members?

This sea change cuts across any skin type or religion. I do not find it fascist to say “Hey hold on a minute, you moved here, I want to retain my identity and my culture in my country.” The fact that your governments refuse to stand up for this very basic tenet is what I see as the main problem.

Just yesterday I read an article about how the already very overtaxed medical staff in the NHS hospitals in the UK are being asked to swing certain patient’s beds toward Mecca 5 times a day in order for these individuals to be able to carry out their religious routines. While one might look at this as being very compassionate to a certain element of the patient population, what if you weren’t of that particular group and were busy having a medical emergency while this kowtowing to alien cultural sensibility were underway? One really has to ask when an indigenous population will finally say “No, we can not accommodate that.” Unfortunately for Europe, maybe never.
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I am unable to post on your site as I can’t remember my user name and password. I have tried every variation I can think of . So, If you would like to post this in your comment section, please feel free. If not, I just wanted to share my thoughts with all of you and tell you that I am in support of you.


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Monday December 10th

I don’t think it is necessary to post my comment anymore but, if you still want to post it I was thinking of posting on the “Charles Johnson should issue a correction” thread. Actually, you could put my comments in any one of the recent battle threads but, I think your reader community has moved on.

I find a lot of the dissent to be akin to the discussion of “how many angels can you balance on the head of a pin.” To that end, I read an extended discussion involving someone that wanted to debate a stylized Celtic cross vs. an historic Celtic cross and whether there were letters on the cross, does the cross bow out or in, what is the true meaning of having a rendition of a Celtic cross on the front of a book… ad infinitum. Meanwhile, I am looking at my “cross” collection and wondering about the deeper, darker meaning of the crosses I own!

I found this discussion to be somewhat offensive. What this commenter was saying was that we should all examine our Celtic crosses and, if they don’t meet PC standards (as defined by this man) we should hide our crosses from view because, if we don’t, then we are obviously playing into some white power thing and… next thing you know they will come for the Jews!!! I wonder how people get tied up like this?

There is a serious problem with accommodation of non-indigenous culture vs. indigenous people that want to retain their culture and way of life in Europe. Granted, the European people have made some mistakes; electing politicians that do not serve their inherent interests and, breeding at less than replacement level (those retirement checks need to come from somewhere). However, the time is now and people that want to retain their culture in the Western world need to stand up now. Not fight amongst themselves.

I have no clue what Charles Johnson is up to. I can only forgive him because he lives in Santa Monica CA and can’t understand the issue.



Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting that. Certainly lucid and appropriate. I also have stopped reading LGF. Indeed, LGF was a great place to see important headlines. However, the latest bit on Fjordman and GoV have made me consider renouncing my account.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dymphna said...

The bit about bed turning for hospital patients in the UK is a scam, as any *moderate* Muslim will tell you.

Just like the proscriptions in, say, Christianity, Islam takes into account illness, age, etc. re its rubrics.

That's a bunch of hooey by some radicals who want to see how far they can get the stupid infidels to bend over.

England, where is your spine?

I'd say pretty far.

Dymphna said...

zionistentity --

You didn't say anything wrong in your comment, but actually stating Chazzer's hometown is bound to cause all sorts of paranoia eruptions.

I apologize for removing it, but I'm sure you understand.

the doctor said...

Great posts Babs , it is good to see someone really analyse a situation then consider truly formidable responses . I hope to hear a lot more from you .

Spinoneone said...

An outstanding post by Babs. Sorry CJ seems to be baying at the moon these days, but he may come around.

The celtic cross issue is a red herring. It has been around at least since the 6th century AD as a Christian symbol...and probably longer as a pagan one. The Augustinian Friars use it, too.

We in the Western world continue to face a real and imminent danger from Islam. That threat has been there, some times raging, some time quiescent, but there nonetheless since 632AD. It continues to nibble and bite around the edges of our civilization. The end game is our end. And, yes Dymphna, we Americans need a spine just as much as the Brits!

Anonymous said...

Dymphna -- I do understand and thank you for your good and thoughtful work.

AngleofRepose said...

Babs, good comments. You should just get yourself a new google account...


You know what they're discussing lately don't ya? That photo of Dewinter where he uses a "Nazi salute" during his swearing-in to Parliament.

You know what my first reaction was? I laughed. Out loud even. I LOL. Why? Because I see it as yet another antagonistic gesture. Look at the two guys to his left - both are clearly in on the joke, with one having a good laugh.

Yet *some* lizards think it's a clear indication of his neo-Naziness. Me? I'm still giggling about it.

What ya'll think?

Nancy Ewart said...

There's a great article from Der Spiegel on the breakdown of talks between the Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians:,1518,522406,00.html

Does Europe even realize that they could be the next Balkans? Or parts of the US for that matter?

Anonymous said...

No, these are not good comments. C'mon people. I'm Irish as well as American and I have never confused the circle-cross white nationalist symbol with just any old Celtic Cross. The symbols have a lot of similarities--and how could they not? They're crosses--but unless one wants to deliberately confuse the issue there is no question that one is not the other.

The fact is that the white nationalist symbol in question here has been identified with WN internationally for *years* now.

That is NOT the issue.

Here is the issue: If one believes that European people have a right to their own survival as independent nations (nationalism) and if those same European nations are white, then, yes, certain European nationalisms are BY DEFINITION variants of White Nationalism.

This is the key point that both sides seem to miss.

AngleofRepose said...

Hmmm.. too controversial a topic or is it that Dewinter was being an insensitive butthead, and I'm an insensitive butthead for laughing?

Should I delete it?

Baron, Dympna, it's your blog..

Unknown said...


If you think it's a funny joke to make a Hitler salute in parliament, then you show a serious lack of judgment that is quite revealing about your attitude to the celtic cross.

However, I don't see any evidence at all that DeWinter is actually giving a Hitler salute in that photo. It is easy enough to make anyone look like their doing a Hitler salute if you take a picture at the right moment of a wave.

Unknown said...

Of course New Sisyphus is completely correct in his assessment of the situation. I can understand why "Babs" confuses the two kinds of celtic crosses. I don't recall ever seeing the white power cross in the US. Maybe that's just because of the cities I happen to have lived in. But I have also lived in Europe, and they are all over the place over there. They are meant as a threat to and visual attack on foreigners, or at least the darker hued foreigners. Jews are of course also foreigners on their way of thinking.

I guess Babs found my argument that the stylized blocky celtic cross cannot plausibly be treated as a Flemish nationalist symbol to be a bit too subtle. No one has attempted to refute my arguments in that thread. My argument has a ridiculous appearance because it is an attempt to make explicit what should be an obvious piece of common sense. Much more ridiculous is the attempt to explain away the obvious fact that the stylized blocky cross is a white power symbol by saying, variously, that it is a flemish nationalist symbol, a general nationalist symbol that needn't be flemish, or that it just means nothing at all or whatever you want it to mean. If any argument has the appearance of scholastic nitpicking it is the argument that a cross that is identical to the white power cross can be taken to be a representation of the Ijzer Cross--which is invariably depicted by reproducing the letters and gull on the original. There is absolutely zero evidence offered that any person in Flanders has ever considered the stylized blocky celtic cross to be a version of the Ijzer cross.

In fact, the opposite is true, as a learned over last few days. When this dispute first erupted a photo surfaced of a rally, supposedly of the VB, with a Flanders Lion flag next to a flag with a stylized blocky celtic cross. Paul Belien quite correctly pointed out that that was not a VB rally. But in his article, Belien assumes throughout that the cross is a white power symbol. When more direct links emerged, Belien's argument no longer worked. I don't know if he has responded since then. One blogger suggested that the extremist talk and symbols could come from Beligian government agents trying to discredit the VB. (I'm not making this up.) Then when the leader of the party is found to have the cross on his shelf, there is a period of silence and then emerges a speculation: well maybe it's related to the Ijzer cross. That is trying to fit a lot of white power crosses on the pin of the Ijzer memorial.

Why does Babs take offense at me for pointing out what Paul Belien and Rob Verreycken take to be a assumed starting point for a discussion rather than a point of contention?

Her reaction is entirely in line with the whole thrust of the defense at this website: rationalizations together with platitudes about not succumbing to PC rules. Rather than responding to any of my specific reasons for rejecting the Ijzer cross argument, we have a letter taking offense at raising some very basic questions that any argument must answer, such as: is there any evidence of a connection, or are you just pointing out that two things look similar? If the cross can be identified as Flemish, then why does a Francophone Belgian neo-Nazi group ("Nation") use the same cross? Why do Flemish fascists describe the symbol with no reference at all to the Ijzer memorial or anything else Flemish?

AngleofRepose said...

It's gotta be b).. insensitive butthead.

I was laughing at the antagonism because according to sources I've read, this was a picture taken while he was being sworn in.

It's an attitude I prefer. You may characterize it as lack of judgement, but I call it a I-don't-give-a-FF-what-you-think judgement. Why else would I click "publish your comment"? At least I was honest about my reaction.

Look at the look of disgust from the guy below him - that's you. The guy laughing - me. Inside joke - NOT. TO. BE. TAKEN. SERIOUSLY.

One gets labelled a neo-Nazi enough times...

If others on GoV care to rip into me.. that's cool too.

Unknown said...

So why follow along with the weasel-y defense of the celtic cross offered on this website? The cross is supposed to represent an "attitude." That's why it's there. It's not harmless, it's harmful and quite on purpose. It is an insult and threat directly principly at muslim immigrants, and if there is some "collateral damage" (insult to Jews and other non-whites), then too bad.

That seems to be a better take on the issue than Babs', who rises to a position above all rational argument in order to maintain her fairyland illusions.

1389 said...

If you have any question about who the real Nazis and Nazi sympathizers are - and which side Charles Johnson is actually on - READ THIS.

AngleofRepose said...

Well crap-diddly-ap.. lousy internet connection ate my response.. but now am too tired to reproduce it.. more in the AM.

But to summarize.. "bite me".

Unknown said...


I agree: that guy is a bad guy. But do you realize that he defends himself against the nazi accusations in a way that is analogous to the way people are defending VB here? "Those symbols/slogans are Croation symbols, not Nazi ones! I just like the slogans, so what?"

magnus said...

Very well written! I don't think the Americans understand the dhimmitude and relativistic and leftist culture of European politics and media.

I can understand that they don't want have anything to do with what in history has the slightest connection to Nazism or racism, because I don't want any connection to that either!

But they seem to think that any party with nationalism in its ideology is fascism (and that Nazi participation in the WWII by individuals in countries occupied by Germany proves such connections; the LGF-ignorance). And they don't understand those who chose to support anti immigration cultural conservative nationalist parties. I think they (partly Infidel Blogger Alliance, and the Gathering Storm; fully and blindly LGF) too fast has accused those believing that nationalist parties in Europe is "KKK-people". We can do anything about that, just mention it. Also suspicion is a part of a good critical mind. It's for instance unacceptable to cooperate with real racist, anti-Semites etc. and BNP is therefore unacceptable.

A few weeks ago I made a comment on the misunderstandings and what this war is about -- almost the last messsage in this post at the Gathering Storm.

Protestant said...

So what if the white-cross-bounded-by the-white-circle was meant to explicitly be a symbol of "white pride" when used by the group?

A symbol of European racial pride is "controversial" among people who ostensibly want to save European people from genetic obliteration, why?

Anonymous said...

Angle of Repose, thanks for providing that photo of De Winter. I'd heard of it and was concerned, but now that I see how young he was at the time, I'll withhold judgment, even though I don't think it's funny for a politician of any age to give a Hitler salute in public. Would it be funny for an American politician to take a public oath while holding a noose?

David, you wrote: and if there is some "collateral damage" (insult to Jews and other non-whites), then too bad...

Actually, most Jews of European descent are white.

Whiskey said...

The problem with Charles Johnson is that he has no conception of history, and assumes European=White Supremacist=Master Race.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

In fact European History since the Romans has been a constant struggle for separatist identity vs. larger groupings.

The Irish Cross was and is today a symbol of Irish Nationalism. It was the sign of Sinn Fein when that meant something (during the struggle for first home rule, then independence). I certainly find it laughable to suggest that Michael Collins or Padraig Pearse or James Connolly were "White Supremacists."

The Irish (and also the Welsh, Scots, Bretons) were overtly discriminated against and found "inferior" due to their language and ethnicity. Adopting the Cross as a symbol of pride.

This has nothing to do with neo-Nazis, most people are not even aware of them or their symbols. It's been shown in many movies and TV shows to depict Irish heritage.

Subvet said...


As far as a "Nazi" salute, I was at Mass yesterday and the priest gave a blessing to a group who'd come up when he asked for those celebrating their wedding anniversary. Several members in the congregation extended their right hands in "seig heil" fashion, trying to participate in giving the blessing (I presume, I'm new in the parish).

Going by the logic (?) used in many of the LGF comments, maybe Catholicism is in bed with the Nazis?

Oh wait, there are already plenty who believe that.

Never mind.

Kiddo said...

subvet--the anti-Catholicism rampant online is at least sometimes amusing. Check out this howler, "Catholicism & Islam: Ties That Bind". I rather skewered this article after discovering it. Oddly, it is from a site called "Reaching Catholics for Christ". The "reaching" seems to apply more to their arguments and not to any ability to actually convince Roman Catholics through insulting (and insultingly bad) articles to leave The Church.

Actually, Dymphna may be interested as well, as a fellow Catholic. I've often wondered, Dymphna, how you tolerate these absurd attacks on the RC Church, especially when made by other "counterjihad" bloggers. At least Mr McMahon's pathetically bad article that I linked above was good for some skewering.

AngleofRepose said...

Latte Conservative,

Thank you for your even-handed and thought provoking response. I must admit that your question took me aback, and that my immediate reaction was "Of course not!". So why the two different reactions?

I've delved deeply to understand myself and why I thought one was funny and the other abhorent, and can only conclude that, being an American, the latter is an issue so much closer to home. I don't see a lot of anti-Semitism where I am so my insensitive and cynical nature kicked in. I must say that I don't find it funny at all now, and that I indeed exercised poor judgement.

I'm not very good at putting into writing my explanation for the two different reactions, so I hope this is sufficient.

My apologies to anyone offended.

Anonymous said...

Angle of Repose, I'd like to make the distinction between the limits of my sense of humor and the degree to which I should control or judge others' sense of humor. My analogy about the noose was meant to express my disappointment in the young Dewinter's possible poor political judgment, if that's what it was. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else being amused by it. I loathe PC and can understand why some people would defy the EU restrictions on free expression. Frankly, I don't ever want to be the kind of Jew that people feel they have to apologize to for laughing at anything, even if it's something that makes me a bit squeamish. Mel Brooks would've laughed, though... I'd still buy Dewinter a beer, that photo means nothing.

AngleofRepose said...

Latte.. thanks. This is why I called it even-handed. Very well said and I think it displays the differences of approach various people have employed to this whole mess.