Monday, November 17, 2008

German Muslim Says Mohammed Never Existed

This story illustrates what it means to live in the West and enjoy the fruits of a free and open society.

A German professor named Sven Kalisch, who is a convert to Islam, decided to apply his scholarly skills to an investigation into the origins of Mohammedanism. For well over a hundred years the same kind of scholarship has routinely been applied to the origins of Christianity and Judaism, but Islam is late to the table, and the professor was making up for lost time.

His research led him to conclude that Mohammed in all likelihood never existed. Despite his discovery, Prof. Kalisch remains a Muslim. The big question now is: what are his co-religionists going to do with him? I wouldn’t want to rate a life insurance policy for him at this point, and he’d do well to invest in some kevlar-related fashion items.

But the even bigger question is: what are his academic colleagues and the German government going to do with him? Are they going to throw him over the palisade into the forest and let him deal with the wolves on his own? Will he lose his job? Will he be prosecuted for defaming a religion — his own religion?

According to The Wall Street Journal:

Professor Hired for Outreach to Muslims Delivers a Jolt

Islamic Theologian’s Theory: It’s Likely the Prophet Muhammad Never Existed

MÜNSTER, Germany — Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany’s first professor of Islamic theology, fasts during the Muslim holy month, doesn’t like to shake hands with Muslim women and has spent years studying Islamic scripture. Islam, he says, guides his life.

So it came as something of a surprise when Prof. Kalisch announced the fruit of his theological research. His conclusion: The Prophet Muhammad probably never existed.

Muslims, not surprisingly, are outraged. Even Danish cartoonists who triggered global protests a couple of years ago didn’t portray the Prophet as fictional. German police, worried about a violent backlash, told the professor to move his religious-studies center to more-secure premises.

“We had no idea he would have ideas like this,” says Thomas Bauer, a fellow academic at Münster University who sat on a committee that appointed Prof. Kalisch. “I’m a more orthodox Muslim than he is, and I’m not a Muslim.”

And this in a religion where a lapse from orthodoxy often costs the offender his life.

Prof. Kalisch has proved a disappointment to those who originally hailed him in his new position:
- - - - - - - - -
When Prof. Kalisch took up his theology chair four years ago, he was seen as proof that modern Western scholarship and Islamic ways can mingle — and counter the influence of radical preachers in Germany. He was put in charge of a new program at Münster, one of Germany’s oldest and most respected universities, to train teachers in state schools to teach Muslim pupils about their faith.

Muslim leaders cheered and joined an advisory board at his Center for Religious Studies. Politicians hailed the appointment as a sign of Germany’s readiness to absorb some three million Muslims into mainstream society. But, says Andreas Pinkwart, a minister responsible for higher education in this north German region, “the results are disappointing.”

Here’s my favorite part. Despite his conversion, the professor remains a Westerner through and through: a scholarly enquiry to determine the truth was more important to him than reinforcing the basis of his own faith.

Prof. Kalisch, who insists he’s still a Muslim, says he knew he would get in trouble but wanted to subject Islam to the same scrutiny as Christianity and Judaism. German scholars of the 19th century, he notes, were among the first to raise questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible.

Not even the infidels are willing to be as extreme:

“Of course Muhammad existed,” says Tilman Nagel, a scholar in Göttingen and author of a new book, “Muhammad: Life and Legend.” The Prophet differed from the flawless figure of Islamic tradition, Prof. Nagel says, but “it is quite astonishing to say that thousands and thousands of pages about him were all forged” and there was no such person.

But Prof. Nagel is a man of the West as well, and defends his colleague’s right to promote his blasphemous conclusions:

All the same, Prof. Nagel has signed a petition in support of Prof. Kalisch, who has faced blistering criticism from Muslim groups and some secular German academics. “We are in Europe,” Prof. Nagel says. “Education is about thinking, not just learning by heart.”

Prof. Kalisch has now been pronounced an apostate, which generally precedes a death sentence:

Prof. Kalisch’s religious studies center recently removed a sign and erased its address from its Web site. The professor, a burly 42-year-old, says he has received no specific threats but has been denounced as apostate, a capital offense in some readings of Islam.

“Maybe people are speculating that some idiot will come and cut off my head,” he said during an interview in his study.

A few minutes later, an assistant arrived in a panic to say a suspicious-looking digital clock had been found lying in the hallway. Police, called to the scene, declared the clock harmless.

And, to heap outrage upon outrage:

He has doubts, too, about the Quran. “God doesn’t write books,” Prof. Kalisch says.


The professor says he’s more determined than ever to keep probing his faith. He is finishing a book to explain his thoughts. It’s in English instead of German because he wants to make a bigger impact. “I’m convinced that what I’m doing is necessary. There must be a free discussion of Islam,” he says.

My advice to Prof. Kalisch: write fast.

Hat tip: Abu Elvis.


Unknown said...

Our man on the inside, Great. We need to all "convert" and start writing critical works about islam as Muslims.

Mother Effingby said...

Why would anyone with a brain convert to a religion that is based upon a lie?

Conservative Swede said...

Prof. Kalisch, who insists he’s still a Muslim, says he knew he would get in trouble but wanted to subject Islam to the same scrutiny as Christianity and Judaism. German scholars of the 19th century, he notes, were among the first to raise questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible.

Once a German, always a German. Great people the Germans! Where would our civilization have been without them?

xlbrl said...

Where would our civilization be without Germans?
Well, I can tell you where six million Jews would not be, and four million other non-conforming types. Then there is the matter of the Second World War, the First World War, and the everlasting
German contributions to Socialism.
On the other hand, there is German comedy, the ME-109, Wolfgang,
Ludwig, Gehrig and Ruth.
It's a close call.

Conservative Swede said...

Well, I can tell you where six million Jews would not be, and four million other non-conforming types


Czechmade said...

ConSwede, I love you!

"Once a German, always a German. Great people the Germans!"

* David Kalisch, German Jewish playwright and humorist
* Isidor Kalisch, Polish-American rabbi and author
* Ludwig Kalisch, Polish-German Jewish novelist
* Marcus Kalisch, Hebraist and Bible commentator
* Paul Kalisch, German Jewish singer

Kalisz - German Kalisch is one of the oldest towns in Polen. It immediately occured to me that a place name was used often as a Jewish family name as

for ex. Landau, Prager, Amsterdamer, Oesterreicher

Craziness combined with scholarship
driving the person into somethiing else is quite Jewish. shalom!

Conservative Swede said...

Meaning: I do not care much for your paranoia, I want the Germans back!

Same regarding the Russian, and I'm glad to have them back!

Xlbrl, you have too much emotions invested in the current paradigm and the myths that are bringing us to civilizational suicide. Time to end this deranged guilt trip and hate against your favourite whitey scapegoat. Time to move on. The current direction means death.

Conservative Swede said...


Yes, that's the thing with great cultures: they spread and get adopted; quite as Bela became American. You yourself is clearly very proud of the influence the Germans have had on you.

Craziness combined with scholarship driving the person into something else is quite Jewish. shalom!

Yes, I do not argue with that. Long live the Jews too!

Profitsbeard said...

Muslims will make sure that this provocative professor joins Mohammad non-existence.

They don't like such debunking.

Killing yes, debunking, no.

Although the petty, unsavory, and often malignantly vile behaviors of Mohammad (and his dubiously convenient "morality" and transparent mental shortcomings, as revealed through any open-eyed reading of the Koran) make it fairly likely that he did exist.

Because, after all, he was not much different from an Atilla, or a Hitler, or any other garden variety homicidal megalomaniac.

Nothing exceptional, at all. So what's to doubt?

Except his entire "revelation".

Which is little more than a malicious permission from his handy "God" to behave like a medieval Ted Bundy in a burnoose.

Steven Luotto said...

Ach, dass is completny blbost! Ich bin a Cherman Muslim und I hef discofered dat Mohammad war nie gewesen gesollen sein (zu).

Alebo, Ich bin noch ein Muslim! I do notice a grosse Kontradicia, but if I beng my smazeny Mozek Kopf gegen the wall gut und hard. Der strashny schmerz goes away gegangen un alles bude lepshy.

Alebo, if flugzeuge und Airkraften neffer existierien how in die name of Herr Gott und Pane Boje kann I still call my selbst a Lufthansa Pilot?

Maybe Jara Zimmerman hef die answer!

Czechmade said...


You said
"Well, I can tell you where six million Jews would not be, and four million other non-conforming types"

You are an antisemite, as such you are self-destructive and ridiculous.
In one sentence you deport x millions well integrated Germany loving Jews, you know absolutely nothing about and in the next sentence you praise a muslim Jew as "a Great German", you also advocate some sort of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact wreaking total havoc in most of Europe with your re-invented 2 HerrenVolks, very unpopular idea in Germany indeed, not respecting thus the will of citizens of Germany of various non-muslim backgrounds.

You are a threat to the moral integrity of this web-site, on which a number of people work with love, dedication and valid sense of humor.

Since you have done some work, it might be difficult to ban you.

Under Third Reich you would be gladly a Swedish Quisling.

You are unable to read consistently my comments and I cannot guide your brain out of your dislexia (it is not my job). My caring examination of various German speaking ethnicities provokes an anger since it contradicts your outdated violent concept of MegaloGermania which was planted with no reason or valid explanation in your childish brain.

Czechmade said...


our good friend kalisch, a good time machine pilot anticipated his integration in the future muslim german society in the laboratory of his Islamwissenschaft Department. But unable to slow down his fabulous Quran propelled machine he anticipated the fatal allah guided loss of our only prophet - the Bedouinian version of Jara da desert Zimmerman!

Now being the first, prof. Kalisch is our ersatz prophet for times to come, the only light (noor) left for humanity in this dark period.
He did not say so, but we know that all too well.

Jewish German islam is the greatest thing in the world combined with higher university education - from now onwards anybody is free to communicated with Gabriel or Allah and write as much or many Qurans he wants in Swahili, Burushaski or Japanese. We are free! The Greater German islam flight was cancelled!
Thanks God and the Jews!

Jožka, I am surprized I can follow your prestine local international dialect. Where did you study it?

Steven Luotto said...

Ahoj Czechmade,

You are Czechmade, I am Slovak-Moravian-Bohemian altered, having been tortured 3 months in the fake castle of Dolny Kubin, fed only on Makova strudla and slovensky zemiaky (famous for their high Skrob content) fried with Oravksa slanina along with the famous midly hallucunegenic Masliaky mushrooms of Malacky and the Bedla Jedla or Jedla Bedla of Zilina. Then they transferred me to Kroměříž where Moravians from Gottwaldov Brigade tortured me until I could properly pronounce each and every one of those vaguely sinister looking diacritics without looking like I was on my eighth Krusovice. Then they promised me what I thought was "libertà" but instead trundled me off to Liberec, ex-Reichenberg.

Never mind. Any country that can vote a fictitious character as their N° 1 hero and call their national car "Pity or Shame" deserves the permanent presidency of the EU. But all that was long ago and not it is all either a Mhla or Hmla in my mind (I forgot which).

I'm sorry if we've gone off topic, but with a German Muslim proving that Mohammad never existed still remaining a Muslim, I'm not sure that anything can be off topio anymore.

Czechmade said...

Sorry, ConSwede, the sentence of yours was a quote.

Your concept of expansionist G.-monolith does not leave any space for us - nonG. and your Russians are fierce antisemites (I have various first hand accounts (1991-2007), which never occurs in your thoughts.

Czechmade said...


Mohammed was simply another angelic supernatural being like Gabriel, slightly subsupernatural. He is contained in every atom, acting inside like an invisible fly. It was too abstract at that time, so they had to take the flies out of the atoms - purely theoretically - put them on the writing table, stick them together and create for one nanosecond a big fly mohammed, which made a big bzzzzzzzzzzz, which was correctly put in words and interpreted by scholars with high degree presence of the atomic flies in their persons - hyperactive in the sense of allah.

So dropping and keeping mohammed at the same time makes perfectly sense. He is merely oscillating between created and uncreated on an amazing high speed. arch. JuDr. MuDR. imam Hajji Kalischulláh opens a new chapter in orthodox islam, other branches becoming despicable heresies.

Steven Luotto said...

Dear Czechmade,

Your exegesis is quite remarkable, but I'm afraid it will not be accepted in Jakarta, Aleppo, Amsterdam, Berlin and other Islamic strongholds, where even Koran-only Muslims have it rough and one can only imagine the the fate awaiting drop-keep bzzzzzzzzzzzz-only Muslims of German Jewish origin.

X said...

Schroedinger's prophet?

Czechmade said...

It will be accepted, if we put all scholarship available into one pot and rear it properly:

The big prophetic fly was glued together only after the biggest scholars of all times licked together all the honey available from the surface of the molecules. It was put carefully in big pots, a camel would walk through it and never reach an end in one day. There were 20 pots full of this precious honey and it took the scholars more than 200 years to lick it together, licking 12 hours a day without interruption.
They were so tired and fed up with the licking, that they could see clearly allah and abraham sitting on a sofa not far away from the Moon.

When prophet was glued together, the honey was so thick suddenly that nothing was left. It was worth the little nanosecond of his quasi-existence.

Who does not believe this, will end up in hell. It is plainly unbelievable - to test your faith.

We want your faith in exchange for this unbelievable story.

One_of_the_last_few_Patriots_left said...

I had naturally assumed that the, ahem... "prophet" Mahomet did, indeed, at one time, exist....... just as the, ahem... "prophet" Jim Jones also did exist. Jones, of course, was a rank amateur and an incompetent: the moment a Congressman showed up in Guyana to investigate him, Jones had his THUGS start shooting and then followed up his impromptu murder with a big Kool-aid party. And that was the end of Jones' prophethood.
Sic transit gloria mundi, Jones, baby!
I'm not sure if Moo-ham-mad was more cunning than Jones, or if the Arabs were more gullible that most people, but he did succeed, as we know. Or maybe the Arabs were so gullible that they eventually came to believe in a "prophet" that had been made-up?

One_of_the_last_few_Patriots_left said...

"Ach,dass is completny blbost! Ich bin a Cherman Muslim.......Der strashny schmerz goes away gegangen un alles bude in die name of Herr Gott und Pane Boje.......?" etc.

IoshkaFutz, if my Mom and Dad hadn't taught me Polish and I hadn't taken German in high school, I could not have made head nor tail of your post.
Even so, Ich habe der strashny schmerz in mine dumm Kopf from haben gereading diese Stoff.

Ed Mahmoud said...

The now retired Episcopal Bishop of The Diocese of Newark, John Spong, denies the Divinity of Christ, and basically states Christianity is a barbaric blood cult, and he is still an Episcopalian bishop and these very beliefs are hosted on the Diocese of Newark web site.

So, a Muslim that doesn't believe in Mohammad?

Not that unusual.

Steven Luotto said...

Ciao Ed Mahmoud,

Denying the divinity of Christ is ancient history, but that's a different matter than denying his existence. To some, even Christ Himself - dying on the Cross - was an atheist for a while.

But naturally two wrongs don't make a right and though I hate to admit it, the Muslims don't have an exclusivity on religious / ideological madness.

Actually to a certain degree they have an exclusivity on just the opposite: rationality, all other faiths being - to varying degrees - far more spiritual / mystical.

There is nothing quite so rational as suicide bombing as there is nothing quite so mystical as a Christian martyr.

Muslim charities (more than half of them of the Kalashnikov variety) only give to their own.

Ramadan - everyone ravenous together / everyone gorging themselves together, is the ultimate form of bonding. Very clever.

There is nothing quite as rational as Dhimmitude laws to empty out a country of other believers.

And what could be more rational than a hudna as opposed to a real - albeit shaky and nervous - truce done in good faith?

Naturally we're no longer used to equating cunning with rationality. We see it as shortsighted because we've been trained to have a longer and broader view of things with a certain tolerance stemming from forgiveness considered a form of intelligence (and from there the Gramscians had an easy time of training us to have no view whatsoever).

So, for the time being it's a united Ummah, united despite all its internecine troubles ("negatively" united as gangs and mafias are united against the law) versus an amorphous glop: US. Kind of unthinkable that an LGF would attack a Robert Spencer, GOV, Fjordman when the foe is so absolutely and pathologically insane and dangerous.

Maybe we need our own Kaba stone to walk around to feel some sort of unity!

Conservative Swede said...


Sorry, ConSwede, the sentence of yours was a quote.

Yes. It's obviously Xlbrl that you want banned from this site for being an anti-semite.

xlbrl said...

You have just demonstrated to me that you have no idea whatever what I am invested in. A man more often reveals himself than his subject through his description of others.

I have no guilt of any kind. Simple enough? The virus is leftism, which is drivin by Caucasians and running wild in every single Caucasian country.
Without leftism, Islam could not multiply in the West, nor could non-assimilated minorities, nor could spreading dyfunctional cultures within white society itself.

You keep throwing dirt on the fires if that is what pleases you; I'll keep my eye on the arsonist.

Conservative Swede said...


It's Czechmade, and not I, who suggests that the writer of that quote is a anti-semite who needs to be banned from this site.

Sagunto said...

Hmm, @oishkafutz,
ik (ich) hef ze stronk zuzpicion dass irgendwhere yoe muss have some Dutch ancenstry as well ;-)

I agree, by the way, with the last part of your behauptungen about Islam and rationality, relatively speaking (is that proper Engl.?):

"..Actually to a certain degree they have an exclusivity on just the opposite: rationality, all other faiths being - to varying degrees - far more spiritual / mystical.."

The first part of that statement however, reminds one of the widespread belief among "Enlightenment" publicists (Encylopedists) of old, who always had some sort of soft spot for the alleged "rationality" of the Mohammedan faith, if only to attack Christianity.
I'd say that lack of genuine spirituality doesn't constitute rationality per se. If that where the case, then all sorts of calvinist sects would pass the rationality exam too ;-)

It would almost make reason & rationality seem like something "residual".


Steven Luotto said...

Ave Saguntius,

"....ik (ich) hef ze stronk zuzpicion dass irgendwhere yoe muss have some Dutch ancenstry as well ;-)..."

Not a drop, not even on my sword. Only been there once - oh, I guess thirty years ago, to direct the (wildtrack) dubbing of an in-house Industrial movie, my brother and I had shot for an American chemical company. It was about the company's hard-hitting 5-step sales technique. The tone was supposed to be ueber-victorious, dynamic, super-confident... and I was desperate, because all the Dutch were cerebral, soft-spoken and reasonable and I couldn't get it out of them. There had been no such problems with the other languages. As now in hindsight I must admit that the film, the sales technique and the narrator's text were way over-the-top ridiculous, this resistance on the part of the Dutch stands to their credit.

When I'm feeling diabolical, I actually admire Islam and have images of Old Nick (Scratch, Beezlebub, Lucifer) taking refresher courses with Mohammad.

Call me primitive, superstitious, but to this day, I can't help but see the flipped up crescent moon as a pair of horns.

But never mind that. The author who opened my eyes on the issue (of rationalists being in far graver danger of fanaticsim than mystics or poets) was Chesterton.

Here's a link to an ARTICLE by Jesuit James V. Schall, S.J illustrating what Chesterton meant.

Sagunto said...

Olé @ioshka,

Yoe crescent-horned jinn, yoe gewinnt!
Chesterton is sublime, even (or should I say, especially) when he writes about "Orthodoxy". Chapter 3, on "the Suicide of Thought", still is one of my favorites. He would have ranked something like the "Social Gospel" movement among those dangerous rationalists, and dangerous they have been as fan-base for Wilsonian "Progressives" who finally tore the U.S. Constitution to pieces with eh.. "messianistic" zeal.

But never mind that. Back to G.K. Ch.
With his knack for dressing-up and old venerable traditions, he would have loved Sinterklaas & Zwarte Piet ;-)

Here's what H.L. Mencken once (1923) said about religion and poetry vs "rationalism" (obviously written before Vat. II, but already as a warning):

"..The Latin Church, which I constantly find myself admiring, despite its frequent astounding imbecilities, has always kept clearly before it the fact that religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. It is accused by Protestant dervishes of withholding the Bible from the people. To some extent this is true; to the same extent the church is wise; again to the same extent it is prosperous. Its toying with ideas, in the main, have been confined to its clergy, and they have commonly reduced the business to a harmless play of technicalities [..]
Rome, indeed, has not only preserved the original poetry in Christianity; it has also made capital additions to that poetry -for example, the poetry of the saints, of Mary, and of the liturgy itself. A solemn high mass must be a thousand times as impressive, to a man with any genuine religious sense in him, as the most powerful sermon ever roared under the big-top by a Presbyterian auctioneer of God. In the face of such overwhelming beauty it is not necessary to belabor the faithful with logic; they are better convinced by letting them alone.

Preaching is not an essential part of the Latin ceremonial. It was very little employed in the early church, and I am convinced that good effects would flow from abandoning it today, or, at all events, reducing it to a few sentences, more or less formal.
In the United States the Latin brethren have been seduced by the example of the Protestants, who commonly transform an act of worship into a puerile intellectual exercise; instead of approaching God in fear and wonder, these Protestants settle back in their pews, cross their legs, and listen to an ignoramus try to prove that he is a better theologian than the Pope. This folly the Romans now slide into.."

A bit long perhaps, but there's always room for Mencken, don't you think?

Kind regs from Amsterdam,

Steven Luotto said...

Ciao Sagunto,

Thanks. I would never have imagined Mencken saying that. Mencken?!!

For a while I was deeply interested in the debates between Catholics and Protestants. Sola Scriptura, Faith Alone... I discovered a whole world of Protestants who have jumped ship and returned to the Tiber. Bringing (much to the anger of the Old School Catholics) their love of the Bible and populist zeal but also a freshness and excitement (also in their love for Mary) to a confused and lazy church. That made me rethink Vatican II a bit.

Gotta run!

All the best to you and thanks again for the surprising Mencken quote!!

Czechmade said...

Chesterton has a book available on net comparing Prussian system of governance to islam. I should find it and read it.

ConSwede believes that the Prussians are simply Germans. No Austrian would be imstande to concede such a thing.

Possibly Sweden was influenced much more by Prussia than we think. It never appears in our discussions.
Maybe one more clue to Sweden

Czechmade said...

And Prussian constitution was preferred in 18th c. Japan with delight...more questions?

Sagunto said...

Yes @ioshka, Mencken!

And many more interesting quotes where this one came from, always good fun to read too ;-)

I was a bit sloppy, not to provide more info on this remarkable quote, so here goes:
The quote is from Holy Writ from his "Chrestomathy", a HLM-selection of his out of print writings that I have here, but the original lines are from the Smart Sect, oct. 1923, pp. 141-42.

Groeten uit Amsterdam,

Sagunto said...


You might want to give this one a try:
Chesterton on War and Peace

Quote from a review:
"..In fact, next to Prussianism, Chesterton would define barbarism by pointing to the world of Islam. Civilized societies, Chesterton stressed, told barbaric ones how they should live and not vice-versa."


Czechmade said...

Barbaric Arabs were a way too tolerant and allowed the Quran thing to happen.

We got the "United barbars of Benetton".

It should work the other way - the lesser barbars should be unleashed and finish the bigger barbars. The lesser barbars had no book, the balance was wrecked...the battle of idiots might be much more interesting to watch. What a loss...and pity too.

Czechmade said...

Great Germans (Afonso/CS soul study)
acc. to Chesterton - a quote:

July 24: Germany invades Belgium.

July 25: England declares war.

July 26: Germany promises not to annex Belgium.

July 27: England withdraws from the war.

July 28: Germany annexes Belgium, England declares war.

July 29: Germany promises not to annex France, England withdraws from the

July 30: Germany annexes France, England declares war.

July 31: Germany promises not to annex England.

Aug. 1: England withdraws from the war. Germany invades England.

Theory of hudna?

Czechmade said...

Kalisch in German on ZDF TV

Conservative Swede said...


Under Third Reich you would be gladly a Swedish Quisling.

Indeed you are calling me a Nazi.

Rash condemnations, accusations of Nazism, and the wish for having people banned... hmm, I know this modus operandi from somewhere... Oh yes of course, it's political correctness.

The Baron sometimes calls me an exorcist for the way I persistently bring forward and root out PC moralism out of other people. But it's indeed rare that we find this sort of fullfledged PC hysteria in our forum.

The definition of a racist is a conservative winning an argument with a liberal. But already back in FFI I described this as a three step approach. 1) accusation of xxx-phobe (many variations are possible), 2) Nazi, and 3) curtain (i.e. calls for banning). The PC hysterics are all programmed the same way, and reveal the same pattern. It doesn't matter much that Czechmade had to withdraw his hasty reading, his modus operandi has been revealed nevertheless. And it's also highly interesting how the very same quote said by me, makes me a Nazi, while if said by Xlbrl it does not make him a Nazi at all. Speak of double standards. Not at all alien to liberals and PC hysterics of course.

And even an infinite sequence of self-contradiction does not bother these people the least either. Look here:

ConSwede believes that the Prussians are simply Germans. No Austrian would be imstande to concede such a thing.

Czechmade is so excited that he does not even remember his own position. I was of course the one using a broad definition of Germans. He was the one restricting Germans to refer to Prussia and the German state. While in the next breath speaking of how the first German university was built in Prague and the next in Vienna (as if the Prussians went to Vienna to start universities). Very confused, and has been so all the way. The only thread in this, is the constant throwing of garbage and mud in my direction. A too broad or a too narrow definition of Germans seems to freak him out equally. Actually, any talk about Germans (in a positive way) seems to freak him out.

There are many people here holding on to the PC myths, ghosts and moralism, even though very few of them reach Czechmade's patented PC hysteria. The only main association of Germany and Germans for these people is Hitler and the Holocaust. In the PC mythology the Germans are the model of anti-white hatred, which is then extended to all other people of European descent. White people are dangerous and evil and must be kept in check. As soon as a powerful European nation emerges these people get the freaks and the cramps. And as you see I was explicitly referred to as a Nazi by Czechmade.

The difference between socialists and liberals are that liberals try to sound as if they were conservatives. Socialists are more honest. Czechmade speaks against Soros, try to portray himself as a strong opponent to Soros, but have actually bought into the premises of Soros, such as e.g. the Orange and Rose revolutions. Likewise he tries to portray himself as being against the PC tyranny, but at the same time has bought into all the core PC doctrines as well as the PC modus operandi (purity code, hysterical overreaction, calling for banning people etc.).

The natural balance of power that must exist in Europe is described as the same as a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. These people have their minds completely stuck in WWII, and the myths that were created in the wake of it, i.e. the PC myths. History before that effectively does not exist for them. Surely they can talk about it as some sort fairy tales. But they are unable to understand it and relate to it. Their minds are completely stuck in WWII, and are submitted to the myths created in its wake.

I said when Russia was discussed that even if the hate of Russians reach incredibly deranged levels, the Germans are the most hated people of them all. And the others said: "no no no, this is not true, we do not hate the Germans." But I think I have started to prove my point about this pretty well.

It's just like speaking realistically about America, which makes the anti-American hysterics freak out and spew hate over you and call you a pro-American fanatic (a moderate reality-based position looks fanatic to the extremist). It's the very same about the Germans. Speaking realistically of the key role that the Germans have played in the history of Europe, and how we need things to go back to normality, makes these people freak out in the most hysterical way.

Czechmade said...

"The natural balance of power that must exist in Europe is described as the same as a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact."

In your PC talk you hide behind "natural balance" and "must exist".
That means one solution, a dictatorial assumption. Yes, and only big powers can insure this...blabla...through hegemony.

But in your talks one never finds any reconaissance or recognition of something else than the two pattern of "natural" read violent hegemonists in a region you know nothing about. If I quote some Austrians or Bavarians, you blindly think that I am the agent of some hatred.

If I repair my car tire with D - German sign on it, you would shout immediately something about the "great germans". This is unbearable annoying behaviour.

You would be a laughing stock in Germany with your billboard ConSwedeGerman thing and something yet more undigestible and offensive in Austria. And we hate your silly billboard - not ourselves - in this region. The US introduction of Bundeslaender works fine and contradicts your concept too. Your preaching to us efficiently abolishes this one as well.

Moreover as a show-case antiEU type you contradict yourself by not seeing that Bismarck was the primal inventor and promoter of the EU nonsense. This foolish antisemite and antipolonist ("the Poles should be shot as wolves") was more sobre than you - he refused to include Austria in his imperial self-destructive plan as preached by panGermanists of his time. You alienate also our Dutch friends - they were thrown in this panGermanist frenzy as well, even Marx saw it that way. So common was the detrimental idea - across the left/right spectrum including also antisemitism. Your PC speech does not reveal enough directly , but you are an enabler of silly old stuffs which are a threat to the Jews, Czechs, Austrians, Poles, Baltics, Ukrainians, Slovaks and many others. I was not PC enough to look away.

So criticising Bismarck has very little to do with a negative reading of anything "German". Just opposite - criticising Bismarck I protect the Czechs, the Jews, the Austrians, the Poles, the Bavarians and many others who have to pretend to be plainly "uniformed Germans" - as you advocate it here on regular basis - eine gleichgeschaltete Masse for the private pleasure of some remote Swede.

Your statements are more a clue to Sweden than anything else. Sweden donated Finland to the Czar. Sweden got Norway instead, and the Norwegians have something against Swedes remembring them as a sort of master race. I could quote my friend from Bergen to show you clearly your image you have in your region. So you are probably peddling some old Swedish stuff projecting it nastily in Central Europe.

As for Soros, it requires little bit more study not reducing Ukrainians or Georgians to a Soros common is beyond your intellectual power. One Soros is enough to ask for a freaking Russian domination in the region.
The amount of oppression implied and calls for violent simplistic solutions makes you a Molotov-Ribbentrop promoter, political/intellectual starvation is enough to make one into an Obama voter, Soros money receiver, GreatRussiaGermany propagator. You are all on the same level. Being starved for decades you are ready for all kinds of compromises with the evil, applauding it. The nazi thing was a long process, based on somewhat "nice gullible" people as well...same with islam. But you are not nice anymore. You entered the second stage.

Abandon your PC, write some criticism of Bismarck. Do not be shy, little imperialist. Focus on his antisemitic and antipolish quotes. Focus, focus, is some explicit defence of the Poles or the Jews workable for you? Do not be shy, write it.

A little help:

In Mekor Boruch, an eyewitness account is given of a discussion which occurred between Disraeli, the British Prime Minister, and Bismarck, head of Germany. Bismarck complained about the lengthy meetings he had to contend with, before he could attend to his projects. Disraeli answered that meetings with people could be seen in an entirely different light. By hearing opposing views, one could acquire new insight. By working together with people, far more can be accomplished than by single individuals. Bismarck was amazed, and inquired as to the source of this idea. When it became clear that Disraeli had done some research into his Jewish Heritage, and that the idea had come from Talmud,

Bismarck -- a notorious
antisemite -- grew silent. "
You say: "Speaking realistically of the key role that the Germans have played in the history of Europe, and how we need things to go back to normality, makes these people freak out in the most hysterical way." HAHAHAHAHAHAHA "Normality" PC special!!! Go to hell with this normality.

Until now you worked for alienating of the people ON YOUR OWN in Central and Eastern Europe incl. the Jews abusing the moral codex of GoV. Show some improvement! Repent!
There is no such a tendency in Barons work!

Czechmade said...

"Bismarck was amazed"....the little moron could nor understand the basics the ABC
of a democracy:

"By hearing opposing views, one could acquire new insight."

"By working together with people, far more can be accomplished than by single individuals." Disraeli

Bright, clear, intelligent:

Put it as a quote on GoV together with the lines about the siege of Vienna.

Anonymous said...

PC hysteria without doubt...
Some valium needed here!

Conservative Swede said...

I wrote:

"Speaking realistically of the key role that the Germans have played in the history of Europe, and how we need things to go back to normality, makes these people freak out in the most hysterical way."

Czechmade answered:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA "Normality" PC special!!! Go to hell with this normality.


The hysteria all on display. Czechmade also writes:

In your PC talk you hide behind...

Czechmade decided to answer criticism with the most childish approach there is: simply reflexively returning it verbatim.

So one minute I'm a Nazi, next I am PC. The very same swinging between incompatible and total extremes as when Czechmade writes about Germanity and Germans. And his brain has no problem with it. And there is not even a shred of embarrassment over spurting this endless sequence of contradictions. All being said with the straight face of an innocent child, and with the frenzy of a true liberal.

But the disappointing thing is not that the Internet is full of liberal idiots with oral diarrhea. The disappointing thing is how many conservatives that buy their BS. I think conservatives and nationalists are probably the must gullible people there is. Maybe for being so starved for anyone expressing support for their ideas, they think that the liberals who's got oral diarrhea are their real friends. Sarkozy is a good example, being all over the place (including all contradictions), saying one or two tough things about immigrants, and the right-wingers went ecstatic. Czechmade is the same kind, only more shamelessly being all over the place with all opinions and all contradictions of the same opinions. So he will infallibly have pushed some of the conservative/nationalist buttons, and for the average conservative/nationalist (including in this forum) that is all enough. I remembered a few years ago when Bush, after years of "war on terrorism" talk, once said "islamo-fascism" in a speech. Once! Once and never more. But the right-wingers were hilarious over it for months. Poor bastards.

Participating in this forum makes me feel like walking the street with a group of people who are completely void of street smartness. OK, many of you are "street smart" after the fact, which is good of course, but not at all what is meant by street smartness. Street smartness means seeing trouble coming beforehand, by being able to read people.

A somewhat different case here in the forum was Bela. Oh he was viewed as such a fine fellow, having been in prison in Hungary and all (Cindy Sheehan script). Quite as I have done for Czechmade, I warned people how Bela was trouble coming. But the little smurfs of this forum couldn't care less. And Fjordman even quoted him in an article as some sort of oracle. Finally Dymphna too quoted him in an article, treading on the Bela mine, which blew up in her face. The point of being street smart is to avoid such things.

So we have a civilization that is set at an accelerating speed for a crash-landing. And the resistance is very small, which had been fine if it hadn't been for the fact that they are also devoid of street smartness.

I think what we have here is the ubiquitous "goodness" syndrome. Quite as the liberals will say once our society has been brought to ruins by mass immigration and multiculturalism, that they shouldn't be blamed because they meant well, that they had only thought well of people and thereby complied with the "goodness" principle. In the same way the average conservative/nationalist apply the "goodness" principle, seeing it as "playing it safe", when nothing is known, to think good of people; well, even when the signals come of the opposite to shut our mind and keep thinking well of that person. That gives many "goodness" points, but is of course the complete opposite of street smartness. This "goodness" morality might take you to heaven, but it won't help you survive in the street.

So yes, I do actually think that many people here have the talent for street smartness, but their inner voice of the "goodness" syndrome speaks louder within them. And the excuse when things get screwed up is such a perfect one: "I did nothing wrong because I just meant well, and only thought well of other people."

Conservative Swede said...

Finally Dymphna too quoted him in an article, treading on the Bela mine, which blew up in her face.

It should be added that at this point Dymphna reacted with proper force and rectitude. Most people don't even do that... in awe of the Cindy Sheehanish icon or something similar.

Czechmade said...

I can be wrong on this or that but I provide facts and useful quotes.

I asked for clear stand on Bismarck
focusing on his antisemitism and antipolonism and your quotes, I need your written condemnation of this guys
disturbing antisemitism and antipolonism. ("the Poles should be shot like wolves".............this is a good quote! indicating your level of "normalcy" implied). So far it is 100% implied in your comments, that you find acting of such persons as laudable and beyond critic. Bismarck dhimmified Germans. Putin dhimmified Russians.
And until now you applauded it.


Bismarck -- a notorious

In stark contrast to Disraeli - in top politics, beautiful situation describing Prime Minister of Britain morally defeating (moralisch überlegen!) an ant brain owner you never criticized.

Almost every reader of GoV would enjoy it - except you - whining, loosing hysterically time with comments based on poor studies, no thinking, no idea of democracy.

We fight here for preservation and success of Israel and - you fight here behind our backs - you fight for abolishment and subjugation of countless states like Israel in our own region.

You would have big troubles speaking to Disraeli. He would invite us to debate you and make you utterly ridiculous.

"By hearing opposing views, one could acquire new insight."

"By working together with people, far more can be accomplished than by single individuals." Disraeli

Look, you like to jump over quotes you cannot respond to, look again:

Bismarck -- a notorious

Do some research on Bismarck - the ultimate ant brain holder and EUprotofounder - against the will of disagreeing German states and the Austrians.

Conservative Swede said...

I'm PC for not condemning Bismarck, or how is your point Czechmade?

Czechmade said...

I asked for a reply not for a question. This web site promotes Israel, which means you can freely unleash your intellectual powers and write a nice comment supporting our good friends Jews and good friends Poles - respecting their plight under the greatest of all billboard Germans, just a little lonely mean undemocratic troll from Prussia.

You can also google some specific German states which were object of hate and retributions of our little
lonely niemand Bismarck, to display more love for hidden jewels of Germany, the champions of identity - not hegemony.

Just a homework and relief for your dying soul. Pleasure not pain should accompany your efforts. Go ahead! And do not try some PC tricks like questions, write what you think.

Armance said...

Bismarck dhimmified Germans. Putin dhimmified Russians.

I am not sure I understand the meaning of these sentences. Dhimmified - in what way?

Czechmade said...

If you centralize a country, shifting decision making into one capital,
let it be Moscow, Berlin, Brussels, Vienna, you get lot of power at the expenses of
someone who loses his power.

After Beslan - Putin appoints loyal governors of provinces from Moscow, rules by decrees.

Only after WWII - the Germans are given Bundeslaender with local govs. and parliaments.

Discussing hatred of Germans or Russians is redundant under undemocratic circumstances - they are insignificant, turned into passive obedient masses.

ConSwede does not want to see it.
He is a proponent of further dhimmification of other regions esp. given his view of some inherent almost divine character of
the Germans creating "natural balance". A very PC way to describe something ugly. "Russians" should be a complementary power. CS could be easily a muslim - with his stress on someone so special - ruling others.

He wants a political machine, not a citizenry. He must not contemplate the deep wisdom given in my quote.
Preaching hegemony, he is scared of fact questions.

Conservative Swede said...


I do care much about answering your amazingly absurd babbling, it speaks for itself. I would just like to point out that the "undemocratic troll" Bismarck introduced universal suffrage in 1867 (Germany being the 2nd country on our planet in this). And that "anti-semitic" Prussia was the second country of all to provide Jews with citizenship in 1812.

Czechmade said...

I did not elaborate on ""anti-semitic" Prussia". I focused purely on Bismarck.

There is a huge difference between a leader being antisemite and common people babbling this or that.

"An aristocrat, militarist, and conservative, Bismarck was willing to embrace some liberal, democratic, and socialist ideas

in order to

strengthen the German nation and
German monarchy."

I miss the we stand for it on GoV! The Pole, the Jew, the Czech is dead in this concept, Just like the Rossiyan is dead in Putin empire made for Russkiy.

"To obtain the support of the Liberals both in Prussia and the other German states Bismarck proposed universal suffrage in a new German Diet that would replace the old Confederation Diet"

Pure tactics.

Nice to have you caught supporting
liberals and socialists under the ombrella of a conservative (in Prussian sense of the word).

CS, you have so many colours, I love you: liberal, socialist...under one label!


Berto Alail said...

can't read all the comments but i did take notice about civilization and Germans, well, doesn't anybody realize that Nazi had been taken down and terminated, and what we are seeing now is German which I believe one of the most fair and high moral country in the World. The big point here is, Let's see who is not willing to change, with all its controversy and was criticized by most thinkers of the world.