Sunday, July 03, 2011

Unwavering Support for Humpty Dumpty

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master — that’s all.”

             — from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

Humpty DumptyPace Humpty Dumpty, this essay will examine the phrase “unwavering support”, and who is to have the mastery of it.

Before venturing into those turbulent waters, however, a brief update on the Recent Unpleasantness is in order.

During the last few days I have been accused of many wrongdoings. Last night, within the space of three hours, I was publicly identified as a “garden variety anti-Semite” and also accused of “surrendering to the Eretz Zionists”.

So which is it to be? Hitler’s worthy heir? Or tool of the Jews?

I have just one thing to say to my masters in Tel Aviv: Hey, Binyamin: I need a raise!

</sarc>

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

The criticism most frequently leveled at me since the whole mess began is that I have been “needlessly divisive”, “caused a rift among allies”, “created unnecessary internecine conflict”, and similar malfeasances.

But is that really what I did?

If there is any “internecine conflict”, how did it begin?

Let’s go back to Pamela Geller’s original indictment of the English Defence League (which I have separated by sentence to make it more readable; the full text is included as an appendix to this post). As part of her condemnation, she said:

They [the EDL] now have clearly been infiltrated by the worst kind of influences, something that had successfully staved off for years, and they’re no longer staving it off.

[…]

Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL.

I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group that will resist definitively and firmly all attempts to divert it from its mission of fighting against jihad and for human rights. [emphasis added]

Now, this is a blatant call for division within a particular Counterjihad group, the EDL. Ms. Geller stated her opinion quite clearly: “I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL.”

In effect, she called for the EDL to be divided into factions, one of which would be headed by a dissatisfied former member who had left or been forced out of the organization, and for whom Ms. Geller declared her complete support. Atlas Shrugs is a widely-read and influential blog, so her declaration of support — for what had previously been a tiny faction in a intramural conflict — had an enormous effect, leveraging a minor spat into major trouble.

So who’s being “divisive” here? What caused the latest “internecine conflict”?

You decide.

Pamela Geller responded to our open letter by declaring that

My support for the EDL has been unwavering…

And this is where Humpty Dumpty makes a cameo appearance.

Do Ms. Geller’s previous words — “I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL” — mean exactly what she chooses them to mean, neither more nor less?

Or has she forgotten that she said them?

Or does she simply not understand self-contradiction?

The fact of the matter is that her support for the EDL did waver. To be more precise, it evaporated as soon as a single person having her own agenda put forward the completely unsubstantiated charge that “neo-fascists” had infiltrated the group at the leadership level. Ms. Geller then published this charge — which, in these PC times, is the most deadly accusation that can be leveled against an organization — without doing her own investigation, without undertaking due diligence, and without supplying a dram of evidence.

Once again: Who is causing a “rift among allies”?

Lawrence Auster has written an excellent analysis of these events. He first notes Ms. Geller’s words:
In contrast, I spoke to Tommy Robinson at length; he issued his statement to SIOA. Considering his statement, I am not withdrawing my support for the EDL, [emphasis added] but I continue to be deeply concerned and will be watching how events unfold.

Mr. Auster then observes:

…but she did, most emphatically, withdraw her support from the EDL. See her statement above. Now, with her misleading phrase, “I am not withdrawing my support for the EDL,” she’s acting as though her withdrawal of support and total denunciation of the organization and her call for people to create a different organization that will replace the EDL never happened, but was, at most, merely a possibility she had raised, rather than a done deal.

[…]

To sum up: Geller, backed by Spencer, has stonewalled the entirely correct and reasonable demand by the signers of the open letter that she apologize for and withdraw her document denouncing the EDL. Geller and Spencer have also engaged in character assassination of the signers. At the same time, Geller has, very adroitly, claimed that because Robinson has admitted the guilty facts which she herself failed to provide (not true), and because Robinson has stated his determination to keep fighting against the anti-Semitic elements in his organization (true), she is not, as she previously had stated she had done, withdrawing her support from the organization. By saying this, she has in effect withdrawn her denunciation of the EDL, as the signers of the open letter demanded that she do, but she has done so without admitting that she is acceding to their demand.

Precisely.

In addition, there’s no way that a reasonable observer could conclude that Tommy Robinson’s statement “admits that there is a problem” in the EDL of the type alleged by Ms. Geller. Mr. Robinson admitted nothing of the sort, given that she referred to “neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group” — that is, that neo-fascists were part of the EDL’s leadership.

  • That is false.
  • That is why our open letter was first composed.
  • That is why an apology and a retraction were requested.

I’ll go out on a limb once again: Ms. Geller, if there is a “neo-fascist” in the leadership of the EDL, publish clear, unambiguous, factual evidence supporting your accusation.

If you do this, I will apologize and retract my previous criticisms on these matters. I will publish my apology and retraction in this space.

If you cannot produce this evidence, then I repeat what the signatories requested last Thursday in the open letter: Apologize for your calumnious words, and retract them.

The EDL deserve nothing less.


Afterword


It is distressing to see the vilification, name-calling, and general nastiness that have accompanied the events described above.

Ultimately, however, none of that matters. It’s not really important whether you like me or hate me. My intentions and motivations are irrelevant. This is about facts — or their absence.

Those readers who are interested in uncovering the truth of the matter should look at the evidence presented here, follow the links, check out the sources, and then make up your own minds. Either the EDL has been unjustly accused by Ms. Geller and Mr. Spencer, or it hasn’t.

I have been made aware that Robert Spencer has been sending out emails to various prominent writers, bloggers, and activists, soliciting public support for a statement against our open letter and those who signed it. It may even have been published already; I haven’t done any reading yet today.

For the record: I sent out no emails soliciting support for our open letter. Those who signed it were either part of the group that originally composed it, or they read the letter later and asked to be included.

When Ms. Geller’s post first appeared, a real-time meeting was convened. Those who participated are concerned about the Islamization of Europe. They were deeply alarmed by Ms. Geller’s gratuitous attack on the EDL, which is leading the grassroots European resistance to Islam. Most of the collaborators were Europeans, but Americans, Canadians, and Australians were also involved. The open letter was composed collectively, and then published simultaneously at various sites.

The current unpleasantness bears a close resemblance to the LGF Wars back in 2007 and 2008. For that reason, I don’t expect to get much support from prominent American writers and bloggers. If you look at the list of signers, you’ll notice that with the exception of Diana West — who, God bless her, is always willing to stick her head up over the parapet when the cause is just — no widely-known writer from the American MSM has signed on.

This is to be expected. Just as with Charles Johnson, well-known writers are unwilling to stand up to powerful people who have shown themselves to be relentless when publicly disagreed with. Prominent bloggers have seen what happens to people who have differences of opinion with Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer.

I can’t say that I blame them. If this were a large and important blog, I would probably have to make the same decision myself.

The upshot of all this is that only the “little people” are willing to stand up for the truth about the EDL and push back against the unfounded accusations that have been thrown at it.

Most of us who signed the letter are free to do so because we have nothing left to lose. We have no funding that can be cut off, and no major advertisers who can withdraw their custom. We don’t have book contracts that can be cancelled. We are never invited to be talking heads on TV news programs, and have no columns on major right-wing opinion sites from which we can be ousted. No doubt all of us have long since been excommunicated from any linkage at Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs, not to mention all the sites with which they have influence.

No, this group is made up of the little guys. We’re what I call the “Army of Midgets”. We’re runty, but feisty. And there are a lot more of us than the thirty or so who have so far signed the open letter.

Whether or not our efforts are successful, our integrity demands that we give voice to the truth.


Appendix: The original condemnatory post about the EDL, separated into sentences for clarity, and with notable phrases emphasized.


I was an early supporter of the EDL.

I liked who they were and what they were doing.

When the EDL first came on the scene, I noted their strong support of Israel: Israeli flags at their rallies, and forthright expressions of solidarity with the Jewish State in its resistance to the same relentless jihad that is advancing in Britain.

Almost immediately there came the inevitable charge from the jihad-loving Left that the group was “neo-Nazi,” “neofascist,” “white supremacist,” and more.

So I started investigating.

I found that they rejected the British National Party’s racial orientation, and that they had members who were Sikhs, Pakistanis, gays and other minorities, and even, eventually, a Jewish division.

The idea of pro-Israel neo-Nazis is a myth of the Left, and so the presence of the Jewish division was decisive.

I was troubled by the photos of EDL members giving the Nazi salute, but discovered that the EDL was aware of neo-Nazi attempts at infiltration, and had a policy of expelling anyone who expressed any kind of antisemitic or neofascist sentiments.

They even refused to allow people to be members of both the EDL and the BNP.

So it seemed to me at the time that the EDL was a genuine anti-jihad group, strongly pro-Israel as every legitimate anti-jihad group must be, since Israel is at the front lines of the global jihad, and resolutely rejecting racism and any form of actual neofascism.

However, it has become increasingly clear that the EDL has morphed and diverged from its original course.

They now have clearly been infiltrated by the worst kind of influences, something that had successfully staved off for years, and they’re no longer staving it off.

Roberta Moore, the leader of the Jewish Division, has broken with the EDL.

Perhaps the decentralization of the group or the loose grip Tommy Robinson held on its tether is responsible for this terrible shift in the EDL’s direction -- I don’t know.

But whatever the case may be, the EDL has done a Charles Johnson.

And they are now unrecognizable to me.

I am sure regular Atlas readers have noticed that some time ago I stopped covering their events -- I was waiting to see how things would shake out.

I was waiting to see if the forces of good would recapture the heart and soul of the group.

Alas, it was not to be.

Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL.

I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group that will resist definitively and firmly all attempts to divert it from its mission of fighting against jihad and for human rights.

111 comments:

Book Solutions for Liberty said...

Right with you on this.
Only reticence in showing support is that I'm lower than ankle height. But from the lowliest among us
-- a friend who has known you and your integrity over the years, you don't sit on the fence but stand tall. Never a doubt as to your integrity, and clarity. Thank you for this article and for standing true.
Any inquirers want to find me, it will need to be Lizzy.Belle.Faux on Facebook.
And here's to Victory for Liberty
through UNITY, brothers, Unity.

EscapeVelocity said...

Usually when you are here...

"I was publicly identified as a “garden variety anti-Semite” and also accused of “surrendering to the Eretz Zionists”."

...you are in very good territory.

Hesperado said...

...she [Pam Geller] called for the EDL to be divided into factions...

So who’s being “divisive” here?

Remember "Spencer's Rule":

If we (Robert Spencer and/or Pam Geller) vilify or ostracize an individual or group within the anti-Islam movement, or imply a cloud of toxic suspicion about their motives, it is never being -- and can never be -- "divisive" (for we are perfect and never make mistakes), but is rather righteously rooting out bad elements (bad elements so defined apodictically and unquestioningly by us). If anyone dares to question us whenever we do so, it is they who are ipso facto being divisive and aiding the Enemy, not us.

Green Infidel said...

If I recall correctly - a transatlantic meeting of counterjihadis was planned for Strasbourg this weekend.

Long time ago eh?

And among Spencer & Geller's "long list of supporters" come 14 SIOE websites - including SIOE Poland, with the last post dating back to May 2010...

As I recall, Pamela previously attacked LGF, then Gates of Vienna itself... So not the first time this has happened either.

Sometimes, it's better not to "stir things up" even more. But these are serious allegations against the EDL - the main anti-islamization organisation in the UK. And one which supported Israel at its rallies, with many of its supporters flying Israeli flags. Quite the "neo-fascists" eh?

The EDL already has to deal with Muslim fanatics, the far-left UAF, and the WHOLE of the mainstream media stacked against it... does it need this? And does the Counterjihad (and hence also Spencer/Geller) need to have such splintering, with them already having to battle the MSM, Islamic fanatics and the likes of CAIR?

Sad and pitiable.

EscapeVelocity said...

“I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL”


"I too saw Goody Proctor with the Devil!"






Couldnt pass that one up.

philip.zhao said...

I hereby withdraw my support for EDL !

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

I hereby kick down the support that was put up to try and stop this pile of rocks from crushing me!

Zenster said...

Per Geller: Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL.

It is very important to note how Geller states that the EDL's "administration" had been "infiltrated" by these supposed "neo-fascists".

Even now, she continues to write of her, "concern about the increasing antisemitism in the ranks of the admins at the EDL". [emphasis added]

This latest slur is somewhat ambiguous as it could refer to web site "admins" (administrators) or "admins" in the sense of administrative personnel who oversee the EDL organization.

Either way, this is still a serious accusation because of how such people ("admins") are significantly more embedded than ordinary rank and file members, thus such accusations carry with them the implication that these "neo-fascists" have passed EDL vetting procedures.

Tommy Robinson, in his eloquent reponse stated that:

We repudiate any individual, group or writing that favors anti-Semitism, neofascism, and any race-based ideology. Any rogue elements within the EDL who go against our mission statement and our beliefs will be removed from the organization; we are determined to remain true to our mission. Anti-Semitism will not ever be tolerated within the EDL. [emphasis added]

There is a tremendous difference between the words "administration" (or "admins") and "organization".

Nowhere have I seen Pamela Geller address this exceedingly significant difference in language. This is as worrisome as it is damning of Geller's carelessness in casting aspersions for which she has yet to introduce any facts in evidence.

Per Geller: “I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL.”

This statement also contains the damaging insinuation that those currently in the EDL are not "genuine anti-jihadists", which is yet another unfounded smear.

Baron Bodissey: To be more precise, it evaporated as soon as a single person having her own agenda put forward the completely unsubstantiated charge that “neo-fascists” had infiltrated the group at the leadership level. [emphasis added]

I am heartily glad that you, good Baron, have made this distinction as well. There is much to be answered for and nothing of the sort is happening as of yet.

[to be continued]

Zenster said...

Per Auster: At the same time, Geller has, very adroitly, claimed that because Robinson has admitted the guilty facts which she herself failed to provide (not true), and because Robinson has stated his determination to keep fighting against the anti-Semitic elements in his organization (true), she is not, as she previously had stated she had done, withdrawing her support from the organization. By saying this, she has in effect withdrawn her denunciation of the EDL, as the signers of the open letter demanded that she do, but she has done so without admitting that she is acceding to their demand.

A quotation often attributed to Oscar Wilde covers this rather well:

It is best to mince one's words very finely, it makes them much easier to eat afterwards.

Baron Bodissey: In addition, there’s no way that a reasonable observer could conclude that Tommy Robinson’s statement “admits that there is a problem” in the EDL of the type alleged by Ms. Geller. Mr. Robinson admitted nothing of the sort, given that she referred to “neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group” — that is, that neo-fascists were part of the EDL’s leadership.

A point well worth reiterating and one, from all indications, that Geller is likely to leave unaddressed in the febrile hope that it somehow will die a silent death.

All who oppose Geller's blatant smear tactics should make sure this issue goes noisily and sideways throughout the Internet.

Zenster said...

EscapeVelocity: “I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL”

"I too saw Goody Proctor with the Devil!"


ZING!

Superb literary and historical reference all rolled into one! Bravo, EscapeVelocity!

PatriotUSA said...

This is really disgusting and where is the evidence, Geller and Spencer?

Who in hell are they so preciously protecting besides their own shiny asses by not producing one iota of evidence of the accusations against the EDL.

Yes, this is like 2007 and much more so as time drags on. Indeed, it is about the little guys as it always seems to be and will be whenever someone big and mainstream throws mud like this.

That is what Spencer and Geller has lowered themselves to with this tripe.

What is next from them. A letter of support for John Esposito and all the islamization he stands for?

Extreme example, yes but so are these so far, BASELESS accusations against the EDL.

As far as SIOA goes, it is a shell of what it once was.

Baron, very well done and thank you for standing tall on this like you always try to do and manage to do under the harshest of attacks.

Zenster said...

So which is it to be? Hitler’s worthy heir? Or tool of the Jews?

Floor wax or dessert topping?

PatriotUSA said...

Now it is 'small blogs trying to make a name for ourselves'.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/07/groundswell-of-support-for-geller-and-spencer-on-edl.html

Poppycock and bull feathers!
I am being extremely polite here.

My site, my reason for existing is solely to try and educate people on the horrors of islam and sharia law, and to support those who are Constitutional Conservatives, to fight the depravity of excessive and bankrupt liberalism, progressivism, excessive diversity, excessive multiculturalism and political correctness.

Patriot's Corner is NOT out to make a name for itself nor do I make any profit off of it so I refute that accusation by Spencer and Geller right here and now and will do later tonight when this post is wrapped into a new post on
PC. I speak for myself here but am pretty sure my sentiments are shared by others as evidenced by the growing list in support of G of V.

Make no mistake! I support Baron, Dymphna and G of V!

Again they are tossing more accusations at us rather than show us any evidence of what the are accusing the EDL of.

The truth is what is we are seeking, if they have any to share.
I have even more doubts than before about Spencer and Geller.

Urban Planning Overlord said...

I haven't found anything in any of this material about John "Snowy" Shaw, who praised the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Is he, in fact, an EDL leader as is alleged?

Hesperado said...

Hm. Why haven't David Horowitz and Jamie Glazov signed Geller's Counter-Letter?

The Graduate said...

I read the original post about the latest goings on with the EDL on Atlasshrugs. My instinctive response was to see what the Baron had to day. I wonder how many more like me are out there. If that's not influence I don't know what is.
I may not always agree with the Baron but I always trust his honesty and integrity. Keep up the good work.

Nick said...

Ms. Geller gave it a shot by posting a screen capture of someone saying she liked someone else's request to have Roberta Moore handed her P45.

Ms. Geller describes this person as 'a powerful EDL administrator'.

Unfortunately for Pamela, she now says that Tommy Robinson has contacted her and let her know that the person in question is a girl who handles phone calls and makes appointments.

A secretary.

Not a member of the EDL's leadership then. And there is no reason whatsoever for Ms. Geller to describe the girl as 'powerful'.

Maybe by 'administration of the group' Ms. Geller meant 'the office staff'?

Baron Bodissey said...

Urban Planning Overlord --

Good question. If I remember correctly, Snowy did say something about the Protocols. I don't know what it was; I never read the post in question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Snowy expelled from the EDL in October 2010? And for precisely that reason?

That is, he was expelled for saying questionable things eight months before Pamela Geller made her accusation about "neo-fascist infiltration".

If that's the worst y'all can come up with, it's pretty thin gruel.

Nick said...

And note that this girl who makes appointments and takes phone calls apparently 'liked' someone else asking for Roberta Moore to be kicked out of the EDL.

It does NOT follow that the people who actually run the group the secretary works for have been infiltrated by neo-Nazis!

Epic fail!

cumpa_29 said...

Spencer over at JihadWatch put up an image of a webpage that says: ""Zionism not welcome in EDL", and a caption that wrote: "There are pages and pages of this kind of stuff. Here is just one example. 'Hel Gower' is a powerful EDL administrator. She 'liked' this page."

If this is true, I can understand why Roberta Moore, herself a Jewess, freaked out --taking Geller with her. The Holocaust is still within living memory, after all.

Even if you suppose that the people at EDL who put this stuff up were simply criticizing the far right of the Zionist movement (applauding while people's homes get bulldozed), they should have known that anti-Zionism is a movement that includes a lot more than this critique. There is PLENTY anti-semetism under that banner. If this was the case, they should have been smart enough to express their views differently, and avoided loaded terms.

1389 said...

This whole brouhaha never had anything to do with how well the EDL supports Israel, or with any evidence of neo-Nazi or fascist influences in the Counterjihad. It is about unbridled arrogance and blind ambition and nothing else.

Pamela Geller, like Charles Johnson before her, has attempted to arrogate the role of "leader of the Counterjihad" by setting herself up as the arbiter of who is, and who is not, a legitimate member of the Counterjihad.

Nobody has the right to do that.

As with the Tea Party in the US, the Counterjihad needs no leader and it has none.

Anyone, whether it be Charles Johnson or his enemy Pamela Geller, who tries to arrogate the role of leader of the Counterjihad, is doomed to fail. As soon as the dust settles, that would-be "leader" will be left behind.

It takes a magnanimous person to repent, in public and without reservation, after having made a serious and damaging error. Pamela Geller, like Charles Johnson before her, has shown herself to be pusillanimous.

1389 said...

"Most of us who signed the letter are free to do so because we have nothing left to lose. We have no funding that can be cut off, and no major advertisers who can withdraw their custom. We don’t have book contracts that can be cancelled. We are never invited to be talking heads on TV news programs, and have no columns on major right-wing opinion sites from which we can be ousted..."

The reason why we don't have major advertisers, book contracts, television appearances, or columns on major right-wing opinion sites is because we are taking stands that people who have such platforms are forbidden to take.

For instance, Geller, Spencer, et al don't DARE come out and say that all immigration from Muslim countries into non-Muslim countries must be stopped, and that Muslims who have already infiltrated non-Muslim countries must lose their citizenship and be repatriated whence they came.

I can, and do, say that, and I say it every chance I get.

To give credit where credit is due, Geller and Spencer and others have performed some useful services in exposing the recent activities of Islamic expansionism.

But they never take the next step and draw the conclusions that they need to draw about what must be done to eliminate Islam from our midst.

GoV does that, 1389 Blog does that, the EDL does that. No wonder we see the spectacle of Pamela pulling a Charles Johnson (pot, meet kettle!) and turning on those who are more courageous (or less ambitious for personal recognition) than she is.

cumpa_29 said...

The BBC is going to have a field day with this.

Assuming Geller is right, she should have addressed the issue below the radar FIRST, and told Tommy what she was thinking of doing. That way, Tommy could have cleaned house (again, assuming it is as bad as everyone says it is) BEFORE heavy damage is done to his cause.

magooey said...

And the dwarves and elves were ready to go after each other at the Council of Elrond (LOTR).

The dynamic of this "Recent Unpleasantness" is getting distressingly negative. Before this situation gets further out of hand, is it possible for some
reconciliation to be made to clear the air? Maybe a wise Rabbi, or EDL
leader Tommy Robinson can help work out a compromise. (It is Tommy's
organization that is the center of the dispute, so he could definitively clarify matters and assign penance to the appropriate sinners.) If worse comes to worse, maybe a wise Latina would help resolve this conflict.

Otherwise there is a potential for a dysfunctional split in the Counter
Jihad. Sides have already lined up over this spat. Sadly, due to the
dull witted unhistorical imbecility of all too many of the West's
leaders, imported Jihad Civil Wars are taking form throughout Europe and North America. The "Recent Unpleasntness" is a distraction that should be cleared up fast with lessons learned.

Nick said...

@cumpa 29,
That's the same screen capture as the one at AS.

The girl referred to turns out to take phone calls and make appointments. There's nothing at all wrong with that of course. But it doesn't make her especially 'powerful' as both Spencer and Geller have chosen to describe her.

Nor does she appear to be a member of the EDL's administration.

Note too that she 'liked' something that was said by someone else.

From a secretary 'liking' someone else calling for Roberta Moore to be given her P45 ... it does not follow that the people who actually run the EDL have been 'infiltrated' by 'neo-Nazis'.

So this screen capture which both Spencer and Geller are now featuring on their websites does not support what Geller actually said.

Urban Planning Overlord said...

Baron, I'm somewhat mystified by the timeline on John "Snowy" Shaw. I've googled the name and found a bunch of blog entries from the end of June, this year, reporting on his fondness for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and identifying him as the head of the "infidels" section of the EDL, whatever that is. Are you saying that this all happened 8 months ago?

Nick said...

@cumpa 29,
And yes, I agree that it is good journalistic practice to give both sides the opportunity to comment BEFORE putting pen to paper. Sadly Ms. Geller appears to have gone with the opinion of one person, this Roberta Moore, only.

The problem she now has is that having heard what Tommy Robinson had to say, she changed her mind!

So clearly, Ms. Geller should have listened to what Tommy had to say FIRST. It turned out to be quite important, after all.

She's now saying to other people that they're ignoring what Tommy said - what a joke! It's her who did that!

Ms. Geller appears to enjoy running her blog, reporting on world events, and writing for various media outlets. It seems fair to say that she has some aspirations to be some form of journalist. On this occasion, she didn't adopt a good working practice at all, and as a result produced shoddy work. Now she's trying to pretend that she didn't. But the fact that she changed her mind when she heard what Tommy had to say goes against her.

Urban Planning Overlord said...

Well, after further internet research it appears that John "Snowy" Shaw is on the outs with current EDL leadership of Tommy Robinson. Snowy has accused Robinson of pilfering donated money.

Interestingly, "Lionheart" takes his side in an April 16, 2011 blog post attacking Tommy Robinson.

Baron Bodissey said...

Urban --

No. I'm saying he was kicked out of the EDL last October. I've seen the video. Look it up; I don't have time.

Nice try.

Lisa Beth W. said...

I am just a lowly non-blogger, but I do read here voraciously, and I do appreciate and agree with most of what is posted, and I do spread the word! I am not able to contribute here b/c I can't keep up with it all and I'm not well-read enough, therefore I have never posted before.

Keep up the good work, Baron and Dymphna! God Bless You! God Bless America! Happy 4th of July!

cumpa_29 said...

@Nick.
Here's something else that occurred to me.
Had Geller approached Robinson privately first, it would not have undermined his role as leader of the EDL. He could have done what needed to be done (assuming things were that bad), and have it been seen as coming from HIM, rather than outside. This would have honored the national character of the EDL, and made tommy's job of running it (handling people aint easy) much easier.

cumpa_29 said...

@Nick.
As far as whether this secretary was more than a secretary, I sadly don't think it really matters anymore.
Unfortunately, I think the nature of her role has now degenerated into a he-said, she-said.

But hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

cumpa_29 said...

@Lisa.

Good point.

Happy 4th, people!

EscapeVelocity said...

"Apparently an update is required on the blogwar against Atlas that is being waged by vultures with an altogether nefarious agenda. It's not important, because these bottomfeeders just bang keyboards and jockey for position on the bottom of the food chain. But to be clear ......."


How sad. The little people are not important, are bottomfeeders. The EDL is filled with the little bottomfeeders....who are held in contempt by Pam Geller in a similar fashion as the Leftwing Elitists and Labour Party big wigs.

Rather the vultures are giving their support to Geller in her vicious attack on the EDL, Id say.

Robert Allison said...

@1389
Pam is claiming The Blogmocracy is one of the blogs supporting her and Spenser . Aren't you one of the main contributors at that blog? Obviously Pam is exaggerating the amount of support she has at The Blogmocracy!
Pam gets caught out in another lie, gee, why am I not surprised?

1389 said...

Since I signed the letter, 1389 Blog has been de-listed from the blogroll at Jihad Watch.

I have never been on the blogroll at Atlas Shrugs, in spite of the fact that I have spoken up on behalf of BOTH Spencer and Geller many, many times, and in many different venues.

Their slandering decent people in the Counterjihad is unforgivable, IMO. I won't speak up for either of them again, nor will I link to them, until I see a REAL apology.

It's sad how often those people who most want the help of others when somebody is trying to censor them or shut them down, are so quick to turn against those who helped them previously.

I spoke up for Little Green Footballs back in the day when it was being blocked by "censorware." Then, I was banned and blocked. Ironically, it was being tagged as a "hate blog." It wasn't then, but it sure is one NOW.

Nick said...

I think that the bottom line is that Ms. Geller wrote something that was unsubstantiated, and based it on what one person said.

It would simply have been good practice to give someone from the EDL leadership, i.e. Tommy Robinson the opportunity to comment (or as you say, take action) first. And it goes without saying that any conclusions Ms. Geller eventually drew ought to have been argued for properly. (Certainly if she wanted anyone to agree with her. Well, anyone outside her adoring fan base.)

Quote of the day from the EDL forum: (See link.)

Nick said...

The fact that she neglected something significant from her original article is demonstrated by her subsequent volte-face.

1389 said...

Robert Allison,

I am (at least for the time being) a contributor at Blogmocracy. I am not an admin. I have no knowledge of any statement of support, official or unofficial, from the admins at Blogmocracy.

In other words, I don't know whether this is true or not.

Baron Bodissey said...

Nick, what is a "bunny boiler"? Only answer if it's not obscene, please.

Nick said...

Michael Douglas, Glenn Close ...

Stogie said...

As the Baron points out, most of the signers of the Open Letter to Pamela Geller are small time bloggers with nothing to lose, so we are unafraid of controversy.

This reminded me of a Chinese proverb, that an army of ants can conquer a snake (this is a metaphor, I am not calling Geller or Spencer a snake).

The proverb means that a lot of small folks can often win if they stick together. There is strength in numbers.

Nilk said...

I've not commented publicly on this before because I've always preferred to keep a low profile, but I will now.

I have been happy to stand with the Baron in the past, and happy to now.

It is beyond tiresome to have to deal with unsubstantiated smears and insults from those who are supposed to be working with us.

I've been called a racist, bigot, fascist, nazi, neo-nazi, ignorant, and all sorts of other things.

And on top of that I'm now bottom-dwelling, a vulture and hungry for a share of the action?

I'm impressed. All that from just having a small blog in the back end of Melbournistan, and talking to people.

Thanks, Pamela.

I'e never run down either her or Robert Spencer, because while I saw what they did to my friends the Baron and Dymphna (who I've known and worked with closely for years now), I felt it counterproductive to wade in with boots on.

Thank you, Ms. Geller, for your show of solidarity in the face of our enemies.

Thank you for unsubstantiated allegations and slandering of the EDL's stalwart leadership - you have now opened a rather large gate for the enemies of freedom and democracy to march on through.

Divide and conquer I think it used to be called.

Bravo!

(word verification:prepir)

Hesperado said...

1389,

"Since I signed the letter, 1389 Blog has been de-listed from the blogroll at Jihad Watch."

I'm surprised to learn you were on Spencer's blogroll this late at all, as he's taken quite a few other blogs off over the years (and particularly pusillanimous of him was his failure to add the blog of his erstwhile colleague, Hugh Fitzgerald (The Iconoclast within New English Review -- neither one on the Jihad Watch blogroll) after the latter inexplicably vanished from Jihad Watch after years of copious and valuable contributions).

At any rate, you've joined good company in the outer darkness, where there is weeping and wailing and typing of keys.

Nick said...

I've just had a comment on AS deleted by Ms. Geller. It went something like this (rewritten from memory):

1. You have in your article an assertion from a blogger that you were 'personally attacked' by GoV and you endorse that assertion by writing 'Bravo'.

2. There are no ad hominem statements in GoV's open letter. The assertion that you were 'personally attacked' is therefore false.

3. You on the other hand have engaged in a 'campaign' (to use your term) against the people running blogs other than your own. As opposed to addressing what they said in that open letter: Questioning their character, inventing conspiracy theories involving them, fantasising about their motives, and smearing by association.

4. I put it to you that you are doing precisely what you are accusing others of doing.

I suggest you take a step back, and see yourself as others can see you. Doing so would, as Burns has said, free you from many a blunder.

And foolish notion.

Hesperado said...

Someone named "Winnie Murphy" (who apparently is a member of the EDL) wrote a couple of comments on the Jihad Watch article penned by Spencer about this (so far, it seems, there have been three articles about this -- one by Spencer, two where Spencer after a brief intro reproduces Pam Geller's words).

This Winnie Murphy has a lot of good things to say, but then inserts this galling little nettle smack dab in his otherwise good comment:

"Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer were wrong, produced no evidence. GoV rightly pointed this out, but then stooped to name calling which I thought was divisive, negative and way over the top."

[emphasis added]

I haven't seen Gates of Vienna stoop to name-calling (much less "over the top" name-calling); and surely Winnie isn't conflating comments on GOV with the official stance of the site itself? (And even if he were, I can't recall seeing a single comment -- other than two which Baron swiftly cut out faster than Jack the Ripper -- here that indulges in "name-calling", let alone "over the top" name-calling.)

I notice our friend Sagunto over there, even responding to Winnie. Perhaps Sagunto could ask Winnie what evidence he has for his assertion about GOV...?

Nick said...

Sent that back in. We'll see how she goes.

Nick said...

Yes, as I've pointed out, there are no ad hominem remarks in GoV's open letter. Ms. Geller is mentioned only twice: First when readers are told that she has written an article on her blog. Secondly when the letter opens, with 'Dear Ms. Geller ...' And that's it.

What Geller said is referred to several times, described as unfortunate and deplorable etc. You may agree with such statements, or you may not. But clearly, those statements are about her comments, not Geller the person. Anyone who cares to read the open letter on GoV will see that this is the case.

Contrast that with Geller's subsequent articles on her blog. Any 'to the person' statements to be found there?

Oh, one or two ...

1389 said...

@Hesperado,

Thanks VERY much for your support!

Oh, and by the way, speaking of "typing of keys" ... do you have any more stuff for 1389 Blog? Please please please??

I'm kind of burned out right now, and I'm scheduled to work a lot this week. So if you've got anything, please put it up!

1389 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
1389 said...

@Baron,

Drat! I did not post the link properly.

"Bunny boiler" is not obscene. It's just gross.

Wikipedia: Bunny boiler

Hesperado said...

1389,

You're welcome. I'm working on one, but it may be as late as a couple of days.

Baron Bodissey said...

1389 --

Thank you.

That's what I get for not having a TV and never going to the movies! I miss a lot of important cultural references.

latté island said...

When this all started, I didn't even want to have an opinion, because it looked like a lot of people getting upset about something really vague. Now that I sort of have an idea what happened, it seems shocking that there's such a serious blog war going on, when it was only about some office politics every organisation has, even the Girl Scouts.

In the long run, GoV will look good and Geller and Spencer won't, because GoV supports the political parties that represent the people, so one only has to be patient.

Hesperado said...

I wouldn't say Pam Geller comes anywhere close to being as nuts as the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction; though that EDL commenter was likely using the term with wry hyperbole and not literally.

I've always thought that Pam Geller's truer calling would be as the flamboyant host of an Oprahish, The View-esque TV show -- but with a counter-jihad slant (perhaps only on cable, as the MSM networks wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot antenna). And Robert Spencer could be her Dr. Phil, as it were.

Issai said...

So Pam and Robert support a terrorist organisation? Because this is what the issue was really all about. From the Jewish Chronicle - EDL dismisses Jewish arm as too extreme

EscapeVelocity said...

I think basically what we have here broadly speaking in macro terms is the split between the White European Christian Nationalists....and the Decent Leftists.

That isnt quite correct.

It's more closely associated with McCarthyist Purity tests with regards to Israel and Jews. For many, and criticism of Jews or Israel is Anti Semitism and Jew Hatred. And they use that hammer of a word "Anti Semitism" to enforce public support of that Party Line.

Im a staunch supporter of Israel, and an admirer of Jews and the Jewish people, however I dont hesitate in analyzing those entities critically. That is why I too, am accused of being a Zionist Stooge, and an Anti Semite.

Meh.

Basical Auster is right. Geller backtracked, but kept ad homing and slandering the good Baron and GOV, plus many of its commenters. Ive seen people saying that they wont visit Vlad's blog anymore as well.


What about support for English Nationalism? Why does English Nationalism have to be watered down with support for Israel or love of Jews? Do Jewish or Israeli Nationalist organizations have to clean house of Anti English Nationalist scum, in order to be considered not beyond the pale of decency? Do they have to declare that England has the right to exist as an English Christian state, or they are infiltrated with fascists? Does the ADL non-support of England as a English Christian state, make them Nazi scum?

In the long run this is the conversation that is going to have to be had in order for the European Christian nations to find their way again....even if the Jews dont like it.

Dymphna said...

@ magooey, who says:

The dynamic of this "Recent Unpleasantness" is getting distressingly negative.

You might try turning away from them.
----------------------------------------
Attempting solidarity with ppl who hate you is always a shaky thing. But strategically it’s a good idea. Thus, they’re on our blog roll despite our being deleted from theirs. IOW, we knew the pot would boil over eventually.
-------------------------------------------------
is it possible for some reconciliation…

Not as far as I know. Others have been given the same treatment if they refuse to join this G&S cordon sanitaire against GoV. A long sad list.
---------------------------
Maybe a wise Rabbi, or EDL
leader Tommy Robinson can help work out a compromise


Surely you jest? The man has quite enough on his plate as it is.
-------------------------
maybe a wise Latina would help resolve this conflict.

Indeed. Perhaps Our Lady of Guadalupe?
-----------------------
Otherwise there is a potential for a dysfunctional split in the Counter Jihad...

The potential is already actual. No “potential” about it. Wherever groups of ppl engage in the same work, there will be conflict. Sometimes it's manageable, but more often not.
----------------
Sides have already lined up over this spat.

The "spat" & its sides have been in existence for a long time. That's just human nature. See “conflict”, above.

--------------------
...imported Jihad Civil Wars are taking form throughout Europe and North America

This Jihad Excursion was codified by the Muslim Brotherhood perhaps as early as the 30s. See here.

Dymphna said...

[cont]

The "Recent Unpleasntness" is a distraction that should be cleared up fast with lessons learned.

To be polite, sir/madam, we've learned many lessons in the Long Internecine Blog Wars. One is to avoid using the term “should”.

Here are some of the other lessons welearned since 2007:

*Some folks have a scarcity mentality and guard stories and material as "MINE". Not our style, but to each his own. Anyone can have whatever they see on Gov w/ attribution.

*Conflict is inevitable. Anyone who hasn’t learned this “lesson” will probably experience more conflicts than those who grasp this fact.

*We know we can't please everyone so we aim for personal integrity & let God sort out the rest.

*Sometimes principle trumps conflict-avoidance. We stand by our colleagues, especially ones like the EDL who have a tough roe to hoe.

*Parental-type demands to "make up & get along" are well-meant but utterly mistaken. Ask Trotsky how that worked out for him.

*When ppl ask we tell the truth as we understand it: Pamela & Robert delinked us & appear not to like us, given their emails to colleagues trying to get them to shun us. Charles Johnson doesn’t like us either. I'm sure there are lots more. Fortunately, it’s a big cyberworld out there & everyone has a delete button.

*We know these actively contentious anger cycles have a pattern which includes slow dissipation…Until the next one.

*We'll continue to support groups and people we consider important. Always have, always will. That includes the Geller & Spencer team when our work coincides.

laller said...

I find myself in the same position as I did when the old "blog-war" with LGF happened: Laughing!
Seriously, there seems to be very little room for disagreement without the **** hitting the fan. Either there are some very large, very frail egoes involved - or some very child like mentalities. I can see no other reason why this blows up the way it does. And that seems to illicit laughter from me.
Untill people learn to handle disagreement, this "movement" is in for a lot more bumps along the way.

Regards

Henrik Ræder said...

The nuttiness of this whole thing is breathtaking :(

There are some take-home lessons:

Sometimes "unwavering support" just isn't.

Not being an active Zionist does not make you a Nazi.

Documentation is King, over and over.

When the EDL blokes posted "Not in our name" about Roberta, that was a nice expression of common sense of common people, and the issue should have been talked at that spot.

Now I'm quietly leaning back, awaiting the evidence from Roberta to back up her outlandish claims.

Dymphna said...

@laller--

laughter=disinfectant.

Have at it.

There's also being glad...as in,
I'm darned glad we supported the EDL. They've put up with too much from nay-sayers in England to have to submit to it here.

IOW, it's laughable for those who have no skin in the game.
-------------------
Chazzer was laff-riot when he smeared the Sweden Democrats, but they're in Sweden's Parliament now. And Vlaams Belang is still in business, despite his accusations and false claims.

So many ppl are lined up against the EDL, including its founder. Will it be able to sustain itself against these attacks and laugh last, as SD and VB have?

I hope so; that's what we wiil continue to work toward.

Dymphna said...

please, folks, stop digging.

The comments are closed until tomorrow.

Thanks for your input.

Baron Bodissey said...

OK, I just staggered out of my bed, blinking and scratching...

Everyone can have at it again -- but while observing the rules, of course.

Nick said...

hey, I just staggered out of my bed a while ago, blinking and scratching as well. It's just delightful when you've been working day shifts and then all of a sudden, wham, you're on to nights again. I've got 4 o/nights this week, then 5 the week after, then I'll have anywhere between 3 and 6 the week after that. Then it's back to early shifts again, so that'll be 7 days in a row. Oh how lovely ...

Homophobic Horse said...

"I've always thought that Pam Geller's truer calling would be as the flamboyant host of an Oprahish, The View-esque TV show"

Her knack for populism has always been her greatest strength and we need that.

Nick said...

I went back and read Pam Geller's original post on this subject, and it's really quite something, you know. Never mind the part about her withdrawing her support for the EDL. Read the rest of it again. Particularly how she describes the EDL. She says that she was waiting to see if the forces of good were going to prevail, but sadly, alas, they did not. So apparently the forces of evil had battled with the light and overcome the English Defence League, who were now on a 'terrible path'.

And five minutes later none of this was true. Apparently. All forgotten about, let's pretend I never said it, and let's all just move along now children ... wow! I mean, Wow!

The thing is if Tommy's statement was a sufficient condition for Pammy to see that the statements she made about the forces of good within the EDL being defeated, the flipside of which is that the forces of evil have fought them and prevailed, were false ...

then it necessarily follows that when Pammy wrote her original article, she did not have sufficient evidence to support the conclusions she reached.

She did not know that the forces for good had failed to conquer the darkness at all, she just wrote those words down on her blog.

A few lines of text from Tommy Robinson and suddenly Pammy's taking the position that it is not the case that the forces of good have failed to defeat the forces of darkness, hence alas and alack, the EDL must be abandoned and something entirely different created to take its place ...

But if that is not the case, then Pammy was quite wrong to say it was. This is very straightforward.

I mean, stating that the forces of good in a group you're a member of has been soundly defeated, and since it is the opposite of good is evil, it follows that they were defeated by evil, and it follows from that that, that you're now in the service of the devil himself, well, that's quite an extreme position to take. And if you admit you're wrong about all of this a day later, I suggest that it's not unreasonable to expect an apology for something like that.

Everyone's focusing on Pammy's comments about the EDL leadership being infiltrated by neo-facists, and her withdrawing her support for the EDL. But the rest of her statements about the EDL in that original post are really quite something!

EscapeVelocity said...

Sagunto continues to challenge people for evidence on Jihad Watch.

I think this is just the usually Anti Semite McCarthyist Witch Hunt, that has become the norm in our European Christian societies. People are afraid to defend against charges of racism and anti-semitism, so much so, that they will eforce rules in which you not only have to not be a racist, but in fact have to support special preferences and priveleges(affirmative action) and correct speech (pro hate speech laws) oryou arent politically correct enough....and thus are a suspect racist.

These are fights that are going to have to be won, Im afraid before the European Christians regain their mojo.

allat said...

"Lawrence Auster has written an excellent analysis of these events. He first notes Ms. Geller’s words."


Excuse me? The meanings of the words written by ALL parties, is as plain as day..we ALL understand English....we can decipher what they mean.

Why do we have to have Mr. Auster come in to analyse the words?

REALLY!

Nick said...

@allat,
It's not that anyone needs him to do it. It's just that he did it. So there's a link.

Course if you're not interested, then don't click on it.

Simple really.

Muninn said...

The thing about Geller and Spencer is I think they entirely miss the mark when it comes to just what we are facing. I believe they think that Islam is the main threat, when it is clear that the PC MC of our own culture is culprit behind most if not all of our problems.

Our struggles with Islam are a feedback mechanism that shows how culturally bankrupt we are as a civilization.

I read Geller's response to your letter. Apparently Baron, you are a Machiavellian Anti-Semite who wants to take the reigns of the counter-jihad from King Spencer I and his Queen consort Geller. Perhaps you should apologize to them for treason to the crown of counterjihad.

I have to admit, I have issues with the term "counter" or "anti" jihad to describe our movement. It suggests that we have no positive values only negative values.. Usually movements that exist to be against something fracture because they don't share anything besides a dislike of what they fight. I think our name should affirm something, like Occidental Cultural movement. Of course, something like that would call down the PC MC hawks and excludes say the people of India who face similar problems to our own. In short, I don't know, but just my 2 cents

Nick said...

I note too that someone else is saying they'll 'STAND WITH PAMMY' although once again it's not clear exactly what issue they are supporting. What are they standing alongside?

According to this guy at AS, Pammy was the one who was vilified, not the one doing the vilifying. Have these people even read the relevant articles?

I've repeated this blatantly obvious fact at AS several times now. No one has even tried to dispute it: There are no ad hominem statements in GoV's open letter. None.

In fact Ms. Geller was asked to look again at the situation. She did so, and then changed her mind.

So at AS, I've asked a few times for people who say they are STANDING WITH PAMMY exactly what they are standing alongside. Which position of hers do they agree with? The first one, or the second one? Or do they just support her 'flip-flop'?

No answers yet.

magooey said...

@ Dymphna 58

Thank you for your careful and insightful responses. Though I have followed the
Counter Jihad from the time when Fjordman had his own blog, the seething
undercurrents that have been exposed are new to me. It is sadly educational.

The articles presented by GoV are often enlightening if not fascinating;
e.g. Fjordman, el Ingles etc. Thus you may understand my concern at learning of the undercurrents mentioned above. Please continue to support whomever you feel worthy. I for one, will be pleased to read GoV for the interesting insights, and hope you won't mind if I toss in a comment once in a while.

P.S. It is sir. Also, you have chosen a truly wise Latina who is not one of the feared Nine gavel-bearers sitting in Mordor on the Potomac (DC).

Hesperado said...

On at least one point, neither side of this dispute is examining the facts dispassionately; and a dispassionate examination of the facts is one important aspect of the West we are all trying to defend. At this stage (after this and many previous incidents), I don't expect Spencer or Geller to be able to stand back dispassionately; but I do expect many others to do so, including many on the other side of this dispute.

A dispassionate and free inquiry in the interest of the truth seems -- on at least one point -- less important than political expediency and necessity.

A post of mine was deleted last night or in the wee hours, in which I stated that if Tommy Robinson were to take a clear stand on one side (signing the Open Letter could not be clearer), the whole brouhaha would come to a screeching halt, the dust would clear, and all would see Spencer & Geller to be Anti-EDL and Anti-Tommy Robinson (or Spencer & Geller would appropriately apologize -- which is about as likely as time going backwards to 2004 in order to make the Boston Red Sox lose the World Series instead of win it).

The above contains one fact (Tommy Robinson is not taking sides on this issue) and a hypothesis based upon that particular fact.

What indicates the veracity of that particular fact is that

a) Robinson has not signed the Open Letter;

b) he has not published or stated any repudiation of Spencer or Geller in their outrageous smear of the EDL;

and c) he remains in communication behind the scenes with the very person who outrageously slandered his valiant organization: Thus, according to Geller, as of July 1 he had "spoken at length" with Geller; then on July 3 Spencer & Geller note in an update that "Tommy Robinson contacted Pamela Geller at 5PM today and let her know that Hel Gower is not an EDL admin".

These communications between Robinson and Geller indicate at the very least that he is maintaining a neutral stance. Why he feels it necessary to communicate with the person who slandered his valiant organization in order to clarify things, rather than simply take a stand insisting that she apologize for her slander -- or at least refuse to communicate with her -- remains unclear. It would not be unreasonable to conclude that Robinson is partially motivated by a concern not to alienate Spencer and Geller, and is trying to practice diplomacy behind the scenes; if so, that would be a curious behavior from a person oft-touted as merely a simple "man of the street" who cares not for politics. Which is it? Tommy Robinson is a no-nonsense man of the street who cares not a whit for backstage politicking and their effects on his valiant organization; or is he not? If he is the former, then taking a stand against this outrageous pair of American calumniators would not harm him or his organization, would be the right thing to do, and to boot would have the benefit of exposing with acutely unequivocal clarity the grievous error in which Geller and Spencer have been shamefully indulging these past days.

To be afraid of the contents of my comment here to the point of censoring it is to betray the love of truth, which is one of the pillars, if not the very heart, of the greatness of the West we are all supposed to be defending. I don't necessarily expect blog owners (however independent and free of the ill effects of politicking they claim to be) to formally take my position as articulated in this comment here of mine; but allowing it to remain published in a comments thread here does not indicate their endorsement of it, while on the other hand an anxious fear of such an imputation bespeaks a timid anxiety that belies the gutsy nothing-to-lose independence otherwise claimed.

Analekta Informatics said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baron Bodissey said...

Hesperado --

I'm not certain (I was asleep by then, so you'll have to check with Dymphna), but I believe your comment was deleted because you went on at length about S/G and Vlaams Belang, which is definitely off-topic on this post.

I don't have any problem letting your current comment stand.

No one was "afraid of the contents of your comment."

Be careful how you assign motives to me and my wife when you know nothing about what we think. We tolerate your prolixity, your rambling discourses, and your propensity for interminable nit-picking because we are basically easygoing, tolerant people.

Don't push it.

Nick said...

It is possible that Tommy Robinson contacted Ms. Geller in order to set her straight; not in a friendly diplomatic fashion at all, but to inform her that the 'proof' she presented of 'neo-fascists' infiltrating the EDL administration was not proof at all. Since the person Ms. Geller described as 'a powerful EDL administrator' was in fact a secretary.

On the other hand, who knows what goes on in a private conversation. The fact remains that Geller made some outrageous comments about the English Defence League, saying the forces for good within that organisation had failed to drive out their adversary, and so forth.

Then she changed her tune. It would have been nice if Ms. Geller had taken the time to speak with Tommy first, and then she could have avoided all this in the first place.

EscapeVelocity said...

Baron, I thought Hesp was talking about a post over at Atlas that was deleted.

FWIW, I just had a post deleted with in minutes, that was rather moderate in tone, and recapped what happened on a timeline.

While reaffirming the question of what "People that are standing with Pam" are actually standing for.

EscapeVelocity said...

Clarification: my post was deleted at Atlas Shrugs.

Nick said...

Pammy's other tactic is to try and stop you posting if you ask her a difficult question like that. As in, you try and post again under the same name etc, and your comment disappears but does not reappear on the blog.

The question of what exactly they mean when they say 'I STAND WITH PAMMY' is a good one.

What do they mean by that - exactly?

None of the people who are saying it appear to know.

Hesperado said...

Baron,

I didn't go on at length about Vlaams Belang. It was at most one phrase within one sentence; a mere direct allusion to its relevance in this current situation.

EscapeVelocity said...

I tried to rebuild my post at Atlas and post it again. This time I saved it and am posting it here for posterity.

-----
Cluebot said

Let's do a Recap:

Pam posts up on her blog a condemnation of the EDL, claiming the Forces of Evil Nazis have taken over and all good people should abandon support or membership in the EDL which has been taken over by the Forces of Anti Semites....while withdrawing her own support based upon the angry assertions of Roberta Moore, who left the EDL for a climbing the ladder of success career move.

GOV and other bloggers respond with a letter asking for the evidence of same and refuting the gist of Geller's assertions that the Forces of Good no longer hold sway at the EDL.

Geller posts up a Facebook snapshot of a post with FIVE likes, stemming from the internal disagreement with the JDL wing of the EDL allying with the vile racist fascist terrorist Jewish Task Force....including by Hel Gower, which she claims to be EDL Admninistration.

Tommy Robinson communicates that they continue to be mindful of would be Nazi Entryism into the organization, and that Hal Gower is not the leadership of the EDL, but a secretary.

Pam reverses her position that the Forces of Evil Anti Semitic Nazis have taken over the EDL and all good people of conscience should abandon it....based on Tommy Robinson's communication. While still maintaining that the Open Letter disagreeing with her and asking for evidence was a personal attack by evil doing bottomfeeder vultures....while maintaining that her support for the EDL never waivered.

That about sums it up. Am I wrong?

Now everyone supports the EDL, while continunig to be concerned about possible Anti Semitic Nazi entryism....just like before the Geller blog post slandering the EDL and calling for its abandonment.


I too, want to know what the people that profess their support for Pam are supporting in this exactly. Because if it is concern about Anti Semitic Neo Nazi entryism into the EDL, that concern is widely shared across both sides in this issue and the EDL leadership. But that doesnt seem to be what the kerfluffle was about.

I dont support Pams wild slanderous accusations against the EDL that it has been taken over by Anti Semitic Neo Nazis...and the call for widespread withdrawal of support for the EDL and abandonment of the EDL by the good people left in the organization. That is dispicable, what she did. If she had concerns she could have privately communicated with EDL leadership (Tommy Robinson) who would have disabused her of those fears....without damaging the EDL with public accusations, assertions, slanders, and calling for the abandonment of support for that organization. I hope that isnt what you are supporting.

Pam Geller has already backtracked, she just hasnt apologized to everyone that needs apologizing to. She has done and continues to do a lot of good work for the Anti Jihad movement. Everybody makes mistakes....but continuing on with this demonization and slander of the GOV and the good Baron is unconscionable.

Westward Ho said...

At the heart of this may be that Pamela earnestly dreads that the world will decisively embrace (or merely abide) Jew blame/hate/demonization/bugbearism (which it may), and she and her dear ones may be "thrown under the bus" in the worst imaginable way. (After all, no one will want to stick their head into the blender of opposing that extreme mass hostility hysteria, who themselves are immune to its targeting logic.) Fearing that this dynamic might one day triumph - resulting in the aforementioned "throwing under bus" of Jews - she leaped into maximum fighting mode when she saw what looked like her worst nightmare occurring within the EDL. And so she disavowed them in a ferver, and resolved to fight for the fun & free West without teaming with them or any others who indulge the judenhaas thing.

I think her reaction had a desperate survival, "protection of her children from grave danger"-type instant response that overrode such things as adequate investigation, doubting the accuracy of her main source (ie Roberta Moore), and so on.

As she slowly returns to earth, buried under the egg on her face, she may realize that this is a side of her personality that needs to chill.

Not excusing what she's done, but on one level, I can sort of understand what happened, as the horror of the normalizing of anti-semitism in recent years frankly chills my bones. But someone of her stature neglecting to investigate the story before very publicly besmirching the names of EDL, Tommy, Gates of Vienna, and other awesome worthies.
OMG. Insane, appalling.

I've always thought there was too much "Me" in Pamela's style, she seems so entranced by her own intensity. Pride goes before a fall. Similar may be true of some others in the blogosphere, some of whom have fallen, but I have long felt Baron and Dymphna to be very balanced people, not likely to succumb to such foibles as they attain the narrow celebrity of the blogosphere.

Nick said...

@ Escape Velocity,
No, I don't think you're wrong. That about sums it up. I too have had a recent post forbidden by Ms. Geller. Here it is then, in two parts:

There are many assertions on AS that Tommy's statement validated Pamela's original claims about the EDL. But this is not the case. Tommy spoke about people on 'the fringes' of the EDL trying to use it as a platform for their own views (no clarification as to what those views might be). Obviously, that is NOT a validation of Pamela's claim that neo-fascists had infiltrated the upper echelons of the EDL.

Tommy also said: "Recently some people have jumped on the EDL bandwagon and tried to use our platform to express anti-Semitic views. These statements are not in accord with the fundamental beliefs of the English Defence League. These people are not welcome, never have been welcome, and never will be welcome within the EDL. We reject all anti-Semitism. The EDL stands where it always has stood, which is side-by-side with Israel."

Stirring stuff! But saying that some people approach the EDL from outside the organisation, then 'jump on the EDL's bandwagon' to give themselves a platform to express their own views, views which fundamentally contradict the EDL's very clear position re. Israel, is obviously not the same thing as Pamela's original claim: that neo-fascists had infiltrated the EDL's leadership; that consequently there had been a terrible shift in the EDL's direction; that the EDL had somehow 'morphed' into something Pamela cannot recognise, and that the organisation had been taken over by evil forces. The forces of good within the EDL had been defeated, alas.

Tommy's statement about the EDL supporting Israel simply does not match up with Pamela's original claims about the EDL and their leadership.

To anyone who wants to use Tommy's statement to shore up Pamela's original position - a position which she renounced the next day: In what way - exactly - does Tommy's actual statement validate what Pamela actually said? Enough people have made that assertion without arguing for it in any way. It would be nice if they at least tried to do so.

cont ...

Nick said...

In addition, much has been made on this thread about the way that Pamela was 'personally attacked' and 'vilified' but this is obviously not the case. There are no ad hominem comments on GoV's open letter. None. Zero.

Ms. Geller's comments about the forces of good within the EDL coming to grief against the adversary, along with everything else she said about the EDL, was described as 'deplorable' and 'unfortunate' and so on. But as Geert Wilders will tell you, it is possible to comment on what another person has said without commenting on the person themselves. And those adjectives in GoV's open letter were clearly, and very obviously, used to describe what Pamela had said about the EDL. Nowhere in GoV's open letter will you find any statement referring to Pamela herself. (Apart from 'Dear Ms. Geller .. ) So there was no 'vilification' and there were no 'personal attacks'. Those assertions are untrue.

On the other hand, Pamela has been doing the very thing she has accused others of doing: she has engaged in a 'campaign' (to use her term) against other people and has not addressed what they actually said. Try looking at it this way: if Geert Wilders had done what Pamela has been doing - instead of what the GoV has been doing - do you think he'd have walked away from his recent trial a free man? Think about that for a moment.

That was the issue at Geert Wilders' trial, was it not? Had he or had he not engaged in ‘hate speech’ against actual people, or had he criticised some words that had been written down on paper at some point, and which had then developed into a system of thought adopted by Muslims around the world? Any philosophy undergraduate is taught in his first week at uni that writing about a person instead of what that person has said is fallacious and does not address the arguments before you. The distinction is very clear. (This is the most obvious point imaginable.)

I suggest that the people who are saying 'I stand with Pamela' take a few moments to actually read the open letter at GoV. They will find comments about the EDL (they are referred to by the owners of GoV as 'heroes' and having read Tommy's statement it is difficult to disagree with that) and about the original comments made by Pamela Geller. And that is all. They will find no 'personal attacks'.

However if one then takes a step back and reads what Ms. Geller has written recently, one will find personal attacks aplenty. Criticising other people's character, questioning their motives, inventing conspiracy theories about them, and smearing by association. Which is all rather unsavoury, IMO.

Isn't this correct?

Nick said...

It might be an interesting way to look at it: apply the Geert Wilder litmus test. Read through GoV's open letter, and then read Pamela Geller's responses to said letter. All the time asking yourself: would this language have gotten Geert Wilders banged up?

We all know that if Geert Wilders had said that Muslims were 'vultures' - if he'd made that comment alone - he'd have been in deep, deep trouble.

Geert always makes the distinction between people and words - as I said earlier being able to do this is the most straightforward (and necessary) philosophical principle one must take on board, if one wants to learn how to correctly analyse what other people are saying.

Geller has failed to observe this very basic principle. And this is not very impressive.

Nick said...

@Westward Ho,
Sadly I don't think Ms Geller will realise that this is a side of her personality that needs to chill.

I think I'm right in saying that quite a few of the people who are not falling for the Geller and Spencer double act / cult of personality are people who have had personal correspondence with Ms. Geller in the past.

They know what the rough edge of Ms Geller's tongue is like. And they know that it doesn't take much of anything to set her off.

Disagreeing with her? Well, that obviously hasn't gone down too well just now. It's quite strange because she herself did a 180 from her original position; you could say that within 24 hrs of posting about the EDL, Ms. Geller disagreed with herself. Why bother if someone else did the same?

I think that the overarching goal her is to establish a cult of personality, where the Geller and Spencer brand can feed off their followers, and naturally, they will be able to earn a nice living from their websites & talks etc.

Good luck to them with all that, but wanting to be famous and hoping to earn a living on TV etc is no reason to behave as they have done just now.

Dymphna said...

I just opened my computer a few minutes ago and...

...took a deep breath after looking at what was then the top of the Comments page:

Hesperado one more time & still nitpicking...

Exhaling that deep breath in a sigh of annoyance, I wandered away to clean the bathroom whilst pondering what could possibly penetrate the dense undergrowth. Or did I even want to bother trying anymore?
-----------------
The Baron put it well in response to Hesperado:

Don't push it.

I'll add this:

Yesterday you sent us an email re our possible closing of the comment threads. I responded with an explanation and asked you to answer two questions.

If you have time to comment here, then surely you have time to answer my questions?

If you displayed the same traits, (prolixity, nitpicking, etc.) at Jihad Watch as you've done here, then I begin to comprehend why they might choose to boot you.

Please examine your own responsibility in others' reactions to what you say and how you say it.

Nick said...

And that's enough exploration of that subject. At the end of the day I don't care if Ms. Geller and Mr. Spencer make a hundred pounds from their next book, or a hundred thousand. If the book's any good, well done I say.

But for someone who is marketing herself as a writer, and who apparently has a background in journalism and presents herself as a guest writer on several media outlets, her approach her has been sub-standard. Obviously using language to 'persuade' and 'position' her readers, combined with very poor research.

For someone marketing herself as a writer capable of analysing the Presidency of the United States of America, this is not too good.

If I were browsing through Amazon and saw one of Spencer's books, or one of Geller's, I would now be thinking that if they can't do their research on the little old EDL, then can I trust that they've done the necessary work here, before they sat down to write their book? It's a question of credibility.

Nick said...

@Dymphna,
I hope you're well, and please don't let any of this annoy you too much. Easy to say, I know. :-)

best wishes,

Nick.

Nick said...

@Westward Ho,

There does seem to be a global rise of hatred towards Israel. I think that's safe to say. And it appears to be getting worse.

I can only conclude that this unwarranted, irrational hatred we see aimed at Israel, which is hardly the size of my back garden after all, comes from outside the human mind. For there is absolutely no rational explanation for it. It is indefensible. When one thinks about where such hatred aimed at God's chosen people might come from, one inevitably thinks of the god of this world deceiving people (2 Corinthians 4:4), yes that being, the son of the dawn himself (Isaiah 14:12). If one starts to think along those lines, it is not a surprise at all that there would be people on this earth with hatred of Israel in their hearts trying to work their way into the English Defence League. After all, as Tommy Robinson's recent statement makes very clear, the EDL supports Israel.

We are told, in what I have read is the oldest actual text in the OT, that the adversary of God roams about and walks upon the earth (Job 1:7). We are also told that he is like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8). It isn't too surprising then to find that there are those with hatred of Israel in their heart who want to see Tommy Robinson and the genuine people within the EDL being devoured. They may even want to take a bite or two themselves.

I've done a little bit of travelling, nothing too extravagant mind you. And there are two places on Earth I'd like to visit. I'd like to go back to Malta, the scene of the siege in 1565 where the Knights of St. John sent 'the Turk' back homeward, to think again. And Israel.

In those moments when I have the time to think about my next trip abroad (next year if I'm lucky), I find myself thinking about Israel. I'd love to go.

Nick said...

With all that said then, I believe I'll head off to watch an episode of Battlestar Galactica before I hit the road for a 12 midnight start. I'm watching the whole series again, and I'm halfway through Season 2. A magnificent programme; lots to think about as you're watching it.

EscapeVelocity said...

On that note Nick...



Battlestar Galactica - All Along the Watchtower

cumpa_29 said...

@Westwardho.

Loved your post.

Hesperado said...

Dymphna,

If you disapprove of the content of my posts, just say so, and censor accordingly as you see fit. No need to use roundabout complaints about prolixity and nitpicking -- others commit those faults and I don't see you calling them out by name and telling them "don't push it".

Hesperado said...

Dymphna,

"Yesterday you sent us an email re our possible closing of the comment threads. I responded with an explanation and asked you to answer two questions."

I didn't get any emails from you. Do you have the right email address? It's myhesperado@yahoo.com

(If you meant you responded here, I scrolled up and couldn't find any response by you on that subject.)

Where did you respond and ask me two questions about my email to you guys?

Baron Bodissey said...

Hesperado --

She'll be back here in a little while. But she hit "reply" to your email, and it went to that address; I just checked. It didn't bounce.

Best check your spam filter. It might be stuck there.

Baron Bodissey said...

Hesperado --

She'll be back here in a little while. But she hit "reply" to your email, and it went to that address; I just checked. It didn't bounce.

Best check your spam filter. It might be stuck there.

Westward Ho said...

Thanks for your thoughts, Nick. And cumpa_29.

The change in just the last 5 or 6 years is horrifying to me, especially as the trend shows no signs of slowing, but rather the opposite.

Also, as a Jew, I saw the hatred that Islam exudes, and I always recognized it immediately. Rather a familiar poison. Only *this* hate will target - that is, will "make Jews out of," if I may put it that way - virtually everyone, who would then experience life with fear, something I wouldn't wish anyone to experience ever.

But most Americans and others don't seem to really grasp this hate, and what it will do if not prevented. I recognize it, but seldom can I get them to.

Gellar and Spencer have both done some fantastic work on that challenge (exhorting people to both understand it and prevent it). I really feel Gellar just lost her head in a loop b/c she's judenhaas extrasensitive and headstrong by nature. And the headstrongness is what has enabled her to accomplish so much good work.

Tonight's the 4th of July. Thank you, God, for America! I wish everyone peace, dignity, joy, and especially to all us Americans, a very happy Independence Day.

And enjoy your Battlestar Galactica across the pond!

Hesperado said...

Baron,

Checked my spam folder already, before you suggested it. Just checked it again (and also the main Inbox) -- still no emails from you or Dymphna.

Baron Bodissey said...

Hesperado --

I don't know what to tell you then. It was sent to the right address and didn't bounce. Maybe she'll want to send it again; I'll ask her.

Jewish Odysseus said...

Westward Ho--

Dittoes on that, amigo!

I just posted my own overly loooong 0.02 on this recent unpleasantness here:

http://jewishodysseus.blogspot.com/2011/07/oohhh-hell-solidarity-and-restraint.html

wadingacross said...

Egads, how sad. What a bunch of ridiculousness. I'm siding with GoV, the Baron and crew here, for whatever half-pence my pimply blog and opines are worth.

I've read some of Spencer's books and watched and read some of Geller's interviews and articles. I respect their work, but yeesh, Geller's got some sort of power trip going on it seems.

wadingacross said...

Dymphna graciously commented on my blog once concerning my twins - They're almost four months old now.

I've read GoV from time to time as I do Geller and Spencer's sites. If this stupidity continues however, I might have to completely ignore Geller and Spencer's works, which is a shame considering things.

Concerning LGF, as I recall, wasn't Johnson also hiding his liberalism which came out in the huge spat?

Much of this squabbling reminds me of the conflicts that went on at a message board I used to frequent years ago at CARM.org

Issai said...

There appears to be an explanation for Tommy's silence on this matter, and it is a legal one. I saw a comment by sheik yer'mami | July 4, 2011 5:20 AM on Jihad Watch and would like to reproduce it here if I may:

"My head hurts.

Stop this 'inner struggle' and unite against Islam!

Our enemies are laughing their asses off!


See here:

EDL leader is banned from protest activity

The leader of the English Defence League has been banned from organising or taking part in any of the group’s protests as part of bail conditions.
Stephen Lennon, of Layham Drive, Luton, pleaded not guilty to a public order offence, which is alleged to have happened at an EDL rally in Luton town centre on May 26 against Euro MEP Richard Howitt.
At Luton Magistrates’ Court on Wednesday, the 26-year-old was granted conditional bail to reappear before magistrates on October 31 for a trial.
As part of his conditions he must tell Luton police, within three days, if he is to move addresses.
He must also not knowingly organise, travel to, or participate in any march, demonstration, protest or similar within ten miles of Luton.
In addition he must not send any article, letter, fax or email that seeks to promote or publicise any match, demonstration or protest in the open air within ten miles of Luton.
At a hearing at Blackburn Magistrates’ Court on June 24 in relation to an assault, he has been granted the same bail conditions, which also ban him from the above but which occur more than ten miles from the centre of Luton.
He was also ordered by Blackburn magistrates to report to Luton Police station every Saturday between midday and 2pm, but he was unable to do so yesterday as he was on holiday.
If he breaks any of his bail conditions he can be imprisoned.
Mr Lennon, also known as Tommy Robinson, said: “It is pathetic.
“We have taken a stance that we will be peaceful, if not we would have been a rioting mob.
“We are an organised peaceful protest movement.
“These conditions mean I can’t be leader of the EDL. They obviously want to get rid of me.
“This is about who I am, not what I am accused of doing.”
He is due to stand trial at Preston Magistrates’ Court for the assault charge on September 29"


The comment also provided a link to the article he quoted from.

Hesperado said...

wadingacross,

"Much of this squabbling reminds me of the conflicts that went on at a message board I used to frequent years ago at CARM.org"

The description of what is going on as "squabbling" (one variation among many similar descriptions I have seen from many different people) I think distorts the unilateral nature of this -- similar to the way the MSM describes various regions of conflict around the world in terms of a "cycle of violence" where in fact it is the Muslims who are the only ones instigating and perpetuating the trouble (e.g., Thailand, Philippines, Nigeria, Balkans, and of course the Gold Standard, Israel), and thus the MSM is implying a mutual blame and responsibility for the conflicts.

This current Geller-EDL Affair is not a conflict of "squabbling" or "bickering" in the sense that both sides are squabbling. One side is sensibly insisting on evidence for a grave charge the other side made against a valiant organization in the counter-jihad; the other side is reacting to this sensible request with irrational and emotional anger, vilification, and obfuscation; then the other side notes this and continues to insist on its original request without getting distracted by the obfuscation but only describing it in order to show who is behaving poorly in this matter; then the Geller side responds with more emotional mud-slinging; etc.

This back-and-forth situation is not a "squabble" of two sides behaving poorly. It is Parents on one side; and unruly Children on the other. (The "Parents" in this particular situation as it has been unfolding may not be behaving perfectly at every moment; but the analogy and metaphor still stand, given the egregious and outrageous behavior of the other side from the beginning to now).

Hesperado said...

Issai,

I see nothing in that information from sheikhyermami indicating any circumstances that would prevent or inhibit Tommy Robinson from a) publishing a brief and explicit refutation of Geller; and/or b) adding his name to the list of the Open Letter; or c) not spending the time to communicate with Geller (and possibly also Spencer) behind the scenes thus in effect (if not in intent) lending credibility to what she did.

Issai said...

Be that as it may Hesperado (and I did use the word 'appears' for a reason), it could certainly indicate the reticence on Tommy's part as, considering what is happening to him now and how much he already has on his plate, who is to say what charges they'll throw at him anyway just to shut him up once and for all? Anyone with a modicum of common sense would, in Tommy's situation, be very careful how they behaved until after the trial.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Having retired police in the family, and having experienced a little of the legalistic jobsworths that infest our legal system, I can say with some certainty that anything Tommy does from now on can and will be claimed to fall under the terms of this judgement if the police want to take him in. They will twist anything, say anything and do almost anything as long as it allows them to make him appear to be breaching the injunction.

So he has that hanging over him now. It would make anyone reticent.

Zenster said...

Just one final observation.

I think it speaks volumes as to the number of comments that routinely disappear at AS and JW when compared to the very few that are deleted here at GoV.

Just one simple fact that provides a yardstick which all can be measured (somewhat), against. Yes, there is no way to quantify that which "is not there". But, if one simply accounts for the many comments here about how their submissions at AS and JW trundle off into the mists, there emerges enough of a pattern by which to judge.

Few sites on the internet work so hard to maintain such an evenhanded and balanced forum. Let that be to the eternal credit of Gates of Vienna.

Issai said...

I have been trying to access the EDL website forums since last night (UK time) but the site appears to have been taken down. I also noticed this announcement on the EDL FaceBook page:

"His bail conditions have restricted him from doing anything EDL related:-

He must attend Luton Police station every Saturday.
He is restricted from doing anything EDL related on his computer.
He cannot attend any EDL demos."


They come down so hard on 'Tommy', and for what? Yet muslims that actively and openly behave in ways that can only be described as treasonous are routinely given a free pass. Considering everything he has gone through I hope 'Tommy' doesn't give up, but if he did then I wouldn't blame him in the slightest. Especially when so-called 'allies' do the dirty on him such as Pam and Robert did.