Monday, July 04, 2011

An Open Letter to Pamela Geller (Updated #4)

See the more recent post on this topic for further information.

EDL header

Update (7/3/2011 11:43pm EDT): Bumped again, after two more signatories asked to be included (USA and Poland). (7/4 1:28am) Added a New Yorker.


Update (7/2/2011 1:15pm EDT): Bumped again, after additional changes.

Added one from France, and one of the signatories has asked to be removed.

Update (3:49pm): another signatory has asked to be removed. (5:55pm) added an American.


I’ve bumped this post to the top and will keep it there for a while because so many additional signatories, including several Americans, have asked that their names be added to the list. Scroll to the bottom to see who’s there — some may surprise you.

Update (3:04am EDT): Added one more. (3:24am EDT) Added another one. (3:33am EDT) Added a Dane.

Update (7/1/2011 11:51am EDT): While I was asleep, eight more people signed on. That gives us a total of 27. Some of the names will be familiar to you…

Also: Europe News should never have been on the signature list. That was an error on my part, and I apologize.

(3:56pm EDT): Added another American. (9:55pm EDT): Yet another American.


As most readers already know, earlier today Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs posted a prominent repudiation of the English Defence League, including references to their alleged infiltration by “neo-fascists”.

A group of Counterjihad bloggers and writers has joined together to publish this open letter to Ms. Geller. Most of us are Europeans, but not all — we also have signatories from the United States, Canada, and Australia.

If you are a blogger or a writer and want to add your signature to this letter, please send your name and URL to me (unspiek [at] chromatism [dot] net), or to the proprietors of other sites where it has been posted.

Update (9:13pm EDT): Two more signatories have been added to the list. (12:35am 7/1) One more added. (12:49am) Added another. (1:16am EDT) Added one more.


Dear Ms. Geller,

We the undersigned are writing to register our astonishment and dismay at your public denunciation of the English Defence League, and in particular your reference to the “neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group”.

This is a grossly inaccurate and unfair slander against the leaders and membership of the EDL, who have never wavered in their refusal to include neo-Nazis, fascists, or adherents of any other ideology that seeks to divide people based on their ethnicity. The core mission of the EDL has always been, and remains, to stop the encroachment of sharia and Islamic fascism.

For the past two years the English Defence League has been on the front lines of the resistance to sharia and militant Islam in England. Its leaders have put their own lives in danger by doing so. They live under constant threat, not just from murderous Muslim zealots, but from their own government, which has harassed and arrested them repeatedly. Tommy Robinson, the leader of the EDL, has been arrested multiple times, and is currently facing trumped-up charges designed to put him and the EDL out of action.

To paraphrase Geert Wilders: “I was dragged to court by leftist and Islamic organizations that were bent not only on silencing me but on stifling public debate.” The EDL is being dragged into a kangaroo court of uninformed public opinion. The more people’s fears can be raised, the more quickly debate can be smothered.

In the final analysis, as Geert Wilders points out, the strength of our community depends on the freedom we feel to “enter our convictions in the open lists to win or lose”.

All communities inevitably experience conflicts based on differences of opinion. It is crucial that we approach one another’s efforts in good faith, presume the other’s efforts to be well-meaning until conclusively proven otherwise, support initiatives made by others that further our common cause, and refuse to be dragged into parsing ever more finely our differences.

Our ideal of the “perfect” can kill any merely “good enough” effort.

Your unfortunate statements were picked up and repeated by other websites and blogs, some of them quite prominent and well-respected. This has done harm to our common cause, and has driven a completely needless wedge between the American and European wings of the international Counterjihad.

To help heal the damage that has been done, we insist that you apologize in a public forum to the English Defence League.

Its leaders and members are heroes, and their organization is widely considered a beacon of hope in Europe. All Europeans who resist the Islamization of their countries look to the EDL for inspiration, and all of them stand in solidarity with it in its struggle.

We strongly request that you reconsider your deplorable words and withdraw them.

Sincerely yours,

117 comments:

Juniper in the Desert said...

No mention of the elephant in the room, the Jewish division, which is what this is all about.

How can you heal something when you refuse to name the problem?

Baron Bodissey said...

No, Juniper, that is not what it is all about.

It's about the fact that Pamela Geller, without the slightest shred of evidence -- except for the words of one person who is very angry at the EDL -- asserted that the EDL has been infiltrated by "neo-fascists".

No documentation, no names, no personal accounts, no nothing. Just an unfair attack on good, courageous people.

That is the problem.

It was an attack worthy of the UAF. With friends like these...

EscapeVelocity said...

May be related...

Very Stupid Jewish Woman Realises EDL Is “Nazi”

The hardline activist at the forefront of the “Jewish Division” of the extreme right-wing English Defence League has announced that she does not wish to be a part of it any longer because of Nazi elements within it.

Roberta Moore, who has led the Jewish Division since it was launched more than a year ago, was accused earlier this month of being a divisive figure in the EDL.



In a statement which she posted on Facebook, the Brazilian-born Ms Moore said she had been offered work on “an international level” elsewhere and so had decided to step down from the Jewish Division.

Although she described the EDL as “doing a fantastic job” she said the party had been hijacked by elements who wanted to use it “for their own Nazi purposes”.

Ms Moore said she still supported the EDL leaders and “all the genuine patriots out there who struggle to get their voices heard” but added that she no longer wished to be a part of it.

“I sincerely hope that the leaders will get the strength to squash the Nazis within,” she said.

EscapeVelocity said...

Polishing Halos

Douglas Murray in support of the EDL at One-Law-For-All Conference

Ex-Dissident said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Baron Bodissey said...

[7:15:15 PM] Baron Bodissey: Ex-Dissident --

Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum. Your comment violated the last of these rules. We keep a PG-13 blog, and exclude foul language, explicit descriptions, and epithets. This is why I deleted your comment.

Use of asterisks is an appropriate alternative.

----------------------

Ex-Dissident said...

oh, not this [offal] again. Didn't we go through this over at the LGF ages ago? From what I've seen of EDL demonstrations and Tommy's speeches, they're alright by me.

johnpkb said...

Glad to see this happening. The EDL need as much support as possible, they are the only visable presence of anti-jihad in this country.
People really need to put aside their differences and get behind the common menance of Islam and it's continual appeasment all over Europe.
Now is not the time split hairs.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

The story coming out is that Roberta Moore was running the "jewish division" like her own private glee club, putting her friends in important posts and so on (rather like Farage has done with UKIP), and that she was smacked down by the EDL leadership for it. She seems to have a history of accusing anyone who criticises her of being a nazi and so, based on this, it seems likely that very little of what she's said is actually true.

Van Grungy said...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_and_christianity.html

In the training camps of the Nazi Party it was repeatedly stated that National Socialism has three enemies: Judaism, Masonry and Christianity. Martin Bormann hated Christianity even more than most Nazi leaders. Goebbels frequently made fun of Christian morality. Nazis in general considered Christianity a "soul malady," "foreign" and "unnatural." Heinrich Himmler despised Christianity and members of the SS had to formally renounce their Christian faith and formally become agnostic in order to become a member of the Schutzstaffel.

Erich Ludendorff, the earliest and most important political figure in Germany to support the Nazis, said:

"The Jews are not our enemies because of their race, but because one of their subtlest rabbis, that man called Saint Paul, distilled the poison of the Christ myth out of the life of the story of Jesus of Nazareth. The Jews are enemies of the Nordic race because they produced Christianity, which has been the poison that has destroyed the vitality of the Aryan people."

======

I forgive you Pam.. it's just a reflex..

no worries.. Just admit you jumped the gun on this one..

NP

Dymphna said...

@ EV-

Halo-polishing indeed. He's right, EDL-bashing is just one aspect of a leftist move to throw whole bloody swaths of people out based on their terms.

Leftists appear to be self-referential in the extreme. One has only to look at Charles Johnson's sad spiral to comprehend that this idea of throwing enemies under the bus is sooo 20th century.

Bye bye Oriana Fallaci; hasta la vista, Ayaan Hirsi Ali; one last kiss, George Bush...etc., and so on.

Tundra Tabloids has a great image along with a body count:

No One Left to Throw Under the Bus

He's got a page noting as they go up --or, rather, down. I didn't know Yid With Lid was banned. Or Iowahawk. Sheesh.

"Under the Bus" Continues

That was almost two years ago and now the puir man has returned to his leftwing roots. After all, there hasn't been another 9/11, which is what sent him scurrying over to the right in the first place.

As for the EDL, some of the criticism, like Theodore Dalrymple's, smacks of class-sniffery. Most unfortunate. They try to do that with the Tea Party here but it doesn't work so well since the TP has many middle-clas & educated & fed up members.

The knee-jerk demonizing is based on fear, imo.

costin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
costin said...

costin (Romania)
http://inliniedreapta.net

an EDL buck said...

Oh please, this is all about Roberta Moores attempts to affilliate the EDL with a terroist group. Geller knows nothing about what is going on the ground over here and frankly she should keep her nose out of our business! Dozy mare.

Hesperado said...

Since this Roberta Moore character seems to be at the epicenter of this controversy, I suggest she be requested to publish an explanation providing her perspective, and proving (with documentation, if she can supply it) her alleged allegations about the EDL.

P.S.: I'd add my name to the list, but a) I'm just a peon blogger, and b) from my history of scraps with Spencer, my inclusion would only serve to alienate him (to the extent he'd even bother to notice a fruit fly on the list).

Hesperado said...

Robert Spencer just published an earnest Apology (in the classical sense -- as in Apologia -- not in the typically stunted post-modern sense) of the EDL.

As King Spencer grants this subject his time before the throne, he adds:

"English Defence League chief Tommy Robinson has just sent this statement to SIOA regarding the conflict within the EDL. I am pleased to see this statement and will continue to monitor the situation closely."

I.e., Heaven forbid Spencer and Geller apologize for their irresponsible defamation of the EDL. It's apparently the responsibility of the EDL and its representative (Tommy Robinson) to provide anxious defenses in order to try to please King Spencer as he strokes his beard upon his throne and thinks about it.

(I recall a couple of years ago when he was going to "think about" Filip Dewinter and Vlaams Belang and whether he wanted to sully his white gloves by being in their smelly proximity. He never got back to us on that...)

Dymphna said...

Somehow Vlaams Belang survived without them. It might be their unabashed support of Israel, despite the other Belgians' hatreds.

The guilt-by-association is another leftwing smear tactic. Douglas Murray expalined it well in that link from Escape Velocity, above.

Chazzer used it repeatedly --uses it still, no doubt-- to besmirch Pamela's efforts. She and Robert appear to be taking a page from LGF's book.

Is that Stockholm Syndrome or just naïveté?

jeppo said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
EscapeVelocity said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hesperado said...

We'll probably never know why Spencer allies himself so closely with Geller (the Gentlemen's Club has many secrets in its vault which it deems beyond the ken of the hoi polloi who support them). It may not be the vulgar reasons speculated above; it may be merely that Spencer found in Geller an effective networker. Whatever the reason, it's a flawed reason to the extent that it manifests itself uncritically to the point of irrationality.

This is why the AIM needs to be an organization: so that the membership can vote to give Spencer a specific function, beyond whose bounds he is not permitted to stray so promiscuously beyond his expertise, as he is so evidently wont to do.

Pierre_Picaud said...

Unfortunately, as the Baron runs a PG-13 blog I can't really fully express my view of Ms Geller's behaviour.

I wonder whether she's ignorant of, or just indifferent to, the colossal damage she's causing.

Clearly the British establishment have chosen this summer to take the EDL out. It's the Tower Hamlet's demo that they're trying to prevent, obviously. They don't want pictures across the world of Britain's Islamic enclave which lies in the shadow of the financial services skyscrapers of the City of London.

And what does our Pamela do? Why she obligingly lends them a hand, without a shred of proof for her nonsensical statements.

Wowsher said...

Last time PG went off the handle was when she had a go at this site and Vlad. Dealing with the upside down world of Islam and the Alice-in-Wonderland atmosphere with which it is generally analysed in the Western mainstream day in day out is bound to take its toll. This site has thankfully managed to avoid the trap into which the other bloggers have fallen.

Dymphna said...

Come on, guys. You know the rules. I'm sure it felt good for j. to get things off his chest, but no way can that stand...
----------------
@ Hesperado:

This is why the AIM needs to be an organization: so that the membership can vote...

You have just outlined precisely the reasons there will never be "any" AIM group.

Think about what you're suggesting. People lay their lives on the line and trust others not to betray them??

The "vote" will inevitably leave hard feelings so you have a huge waste of time bickering.

Nuh-uh. Ain't ever gonna happen.

Ask Trotsky why that's a bad idea.

Meanwhile, the founder of the EDL was himself ejected eventually. He had great gifts, loves his country, and was dedicated to attempting to save it. But not all founders are good leaders and few of them are good followers.

The EDL had to do clean-up for a while afterwards. It was sad but inevitable. And if the EDL does succeed in spite of what he did later, I will still remember that it was he who got the ball rolling.

Please, Hesperado, give it a rest. These hierarchical 'groups' don't work. They especially don't work long-distance. The EDL is right there in England. Notice it's not the UKL...

Stogie said...

Please add my name to the list.

I have refuted the charges against the EDL at the following link"

http://saberpoint.blogspot.com/2011/06/roberta-moore-and-sliming-of-english.html

My blog is http://saberpoint.blogspot.com

Stogie
USA

Hesperado said...

A fairly good, if rather slender, article about the issue by Stogie from his blog.

The question becomes (as William F. Buckley used to say): Are Victor Vancier and the Jewish Task Force to be treated as pariahs -- i.e.,the same way Spencer & Geller are treating the EDL? If so, what's the argument substantiating that position? Simply asserting it would be to do what Geller is doing about the EDL. Perhaps the EDL over-reacted and are themselves being fastidiously gingerly and anxious about not wanting to be associated with types they think will damn them by association.

(I tend to agree in many respects with Lawrence Auster -- that the problem with the EDL is not that they might be "fascist" but on the contrary, are a wee too anxious to bend liberally over to placate our PC MC culture's sensibilities. The benefits of such gingerly anxiety are slender indeed: the EDL remains hanging on by their fingernails to a ledge below which yawns the chasm of "pretend all you want that you're respectable, but we know you're a bunch of football hooligans and hoodies and pub-haunting working-class bigots no better than the BNP.")

Hesperado said...

Dymphna,

You may be right about the inevitable, inherent flaws of any anti-Islam organization.

As divided as the West was for a good two decades about the growing threat of Hitler and his movement, eventually, however, the West did come to a remarkable degree of unanimity and cooperation about what to do about it. It's a shame people can't seem come to a similar degree of unanimity and cooperation in the crucial period of time prior to the exigencies which a hot war forces upon them -- in order precisely to minimize the ravages, and optimize the efficiency, of the inevitable.

PatriotUSA said...

"The core mission of the EDL has always been, and remains, to stop the encroachment of sharia and Islamic fascism."

The EDL is a noble and valiant bunch, standing in the gap to save their country. This letter by Geller was uncalled for and was disgusting.

These people are indeed heroes and patriots.

England is fortunate to have the EDL and should get do all they can to back this group and what they are fighting against, islam and sharia.

Your point about this letter hurting the greater counterjihad movement is what is the real tragedy here.

Indeed, Geller owes the EDL a public apology. I will be surprised if she does so.

Dymphna said...

John Jay, an attorney from the West Coast who has written to us on occasion, sent an email response to the Open Letter. It seems Blooger disappeared his comment.

At any rate, here is what he would have said had he been able to appear himself. The only editing was to put in a number of capitals where they would normally appear...

---------------------
Ned:

I don't think you would be in business at "Gates of Vienna" had Pamela Geller not taken Charles Johnson down, and had she not defended you when Johnson tried to impose his orthodoxy upon "Gate."

And, she was making connections w/ euro nationalists when some of the bloggers who attack her for being divisive were still suckling {redacted] on this issue. And, she took the heat on Wilders, and Filip Dewinter, and on Paul Bielen.

And, if you had only read Tommy Robinson's letter with a modicum of attention, you would have seen that he confirms her concerns, and says that he and EDL will address and meet them, and that edl will not be co-opted by anti-semites and neo-fascists. (What, by the way, is the [redacted] difference? Yes, one is a person and another is a topic or thing. but, isn't it true that neo-fascists generally say anti-semitic things, and that anti-semitic sentiments are often uttered by neo-fascists? eh?)

I tried to publish the below comments at "Gates," but your comments program promptly ushered me into the ether.

I send them along directly to you, for your benefit, and in hopes that it jogs your memory just a bit. You have an odd sense of gratitude, for the woman that basically preserved your right to say what you think.

John Jay

EDL English Defence League Jewish Division said...

Pamela does not have to apologise to anyone. She has seen the evidence herself. Please make no mistake, she is not just hearing the opinion of one person, but she has been given the evidence too. And the issue is not with the EDL leaders nor with the majority of decent and hard working patriots, the issue is as she already stated, with a small group of neo-Nazi infiltrators who spend all their moments sabotaging our work, and attacking Israel and Zionist Jews under false pretenses.

The story you have been hearing about Roberta is fake. All these things have been blown out of proportion deliberately, as those who concocted such stories are the neo-Nazi themselves.

And yet none can provide a single shred of evidence for their false claims against her.

She has stepped down from the leadership because she was offered something better, but she has not abandoned her fight, nor abandoned the EDL, contrary to some claims.
Most of those who criticise Roberta do not even know her, hence the false claims.

There is a small group in the EDL who wants to take over and these are the people Pamela is referring to and by no means the entire EDL. And until these people are completely removed, she does not have to give any support whatsoever.

Neither Robert Spencer nor Pamela Geller have defamed the EDL, they simply stated a fact which was already known to most of us.

Tommy's statement was spot on and a great statement at that. It was necessary to have this statement, so that we can now define the parameters in which we fit the EDL. And it has now been once again established that the EDL does support Israel and is a Zionist organisation, as it believes the Jews have the right to live in their home (Israel) free from terror.

This whole story is not about JTF, JDL or anything else, it is about the small group of neo-Nazis inside who are turning every single story into a storm, twisting people's words and intentions and using it to destroy the EDL, or transform it into a neo-Nazi organization. One only has to look at their forum to see their rabid comments about Jews, Zionists and Israel.

This is no longer acceptable.

Indeed the majority of the EDL people are noble people with noble intentions and we hope it will remain so, but for this to happen and for the EDL to grow and go one step higher in the International community, it has to remove the rogue group at once.

Painful as it may seem, it is a job that needs to be done. Once it is done, I am confident Pamela and Robert will once again give their support to the group.

So instead of attacking them, I suggest you work with the EDL leadership to help them achieve this removal in a speedy manner, as it is in our interest to do so.

Baron Bodissey said...

Hi, Roberta. Good to see you here.

[Pamela] has seen the evidence herself.

I’m glad to hear it. But she has also chosen to keep the evidence to herself, hasn’t she?

What is it? Seekrit evidence that none of us ordinary mortals is allowed to see?

I know, I know — it would do harm to the Counterjihad if she revealed it, give our enemies more ammunition, etc. blah yak.

But would the harm caused by revealing this seekrit evidence be greater than the harm done by making totally unsubstantiated allegations of “fascist infiltration” in the EDL?

I’ll let the jury decide on that one.

Dymphna said...

@ Stogie (omg. That cigar is REAL!)

We're a lazy bunch around here...if we have to scrape out a link to read it...well.

Slackers r us

There's an html template immediately above the comment box.

Thus, we have your essay:

Roberta Moore & the Sliming of the English Defence League

and then your website:

Saberpoint

As for Hesperado's comment, consider that a compliment!

Disregard the "slim" remark. We're all way too verbose around here anyways, so pithy is a welcome change. Besides, *he* actually took the trouble to scrape and paste.

-----
OT:
BTW, regarding yoru Strauss-Kahn post...I hope you're wrong. Only because other women have risked a lot to come forth and say that they're afraid to be in a room alone with him. Even his wife does a Gallic shrug.

Oh well. Sarkozy will be happy in any event. S-K won't be any competition now.
----------------------

Zenster said...

Please add me to the list. This sort of unmerited internal dissension is as intolerable as it is counterproductive.

The EDL may well be Britain's last and best hope. May they see their hopes for that once great nation realized in every respect.

EDL English Defence League Jewish Division said...

Baron Bodissey, I am not Roberta but an admin on the Jewish Division.

"I’m glad to hear it. But she has also chosen to keep the evidence to herself, hasn’t she?"

Not quite. The evidence is already found in many places in the web, and even more is being put together. Everyone can see it, just look for the respective links that were already given in the Jewish Division, and read the EDL and UKFD forum to see the level of rabid anti-Semitism present therein.

Your assumptions above are laughable unfortunately. The truth is out there. Search for it and you shall find it.

We cannot be responsible for intellectual laziness.

Hesperado said...

"Neither Robert Spencer nor Pamela Geller have defamed the EDL"

-- written by someone who posts their moniker as "EDL English Defence League Jewish Division", apparently Roberta Moore (if that's what Baron's immediately following post implied); though curiously so since she would be referring to herself repeatedly in the third person.

If Geller has not defamed the EDL, then that must mean Geller's withdrawal of support of the EDL ("I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL") is based on substantiated facts worthy of such withdrawal of support. What would those facts be? Whatever they are, they must be sufficiently serious and damning for support to be withdrawn.

Geller tells us:

"...it has become increasingly clear that the EDL has morphed and diverged from its original course. They now have clearly been infiltrated by the worst kind of influences, something that had successfully staved off for years, and they're no longer staving it off..."

and refers to "this terrible shift in the EDL's direction", describing it in terms of the EDL having
"done a Charles Johnson".

In legal terms, a person is guilty of defamation only if they cannot prove their allegations.

Neither Geller, Spencer, nor Roberta Moore have not yet proven these allegations.

We're all ears. What's the holdup? Or do they need time to manufacture "facts" after the fact?

Dymphna said...

@ Hesperado--

You may be right about the inevitable, inherent flaws of any anti-Islam organization.

I've given much thought to communities, what makes them work, what causes conflicts and break-ups.

So I would say the same about any group of people (not just AIM) who are working on similar tasks, without necessarily having signed on with others who find themselves with a common enemy or goal. That similar goal may have arisen but structurally it may not work to build the kind of community Geert Wilders addressed.

Anything beyond a City of One generates conflict. If we're not prepared for that, then our ignorance can get in the way of our goal.

It saves time and energy to simply accept that stuff happens and try to stay out of the way of the fan. We can't necessarily predict the content of our conflicts, but after one or two run-ins with the same people, it's safe to say there *will* be problems, to parse their likely content, and to prepare accordingly.

Preparation involves an ever-changing understanding of previous experiences with people. The accumulation of a shared history in working on common tasks gives you information enough to discern the likely success for a given project. But even then and even with the best intentions, misunderstandings occur.

Betrayals are inevitable; someone or other begins operating out of a sense of scarcity, becomes afraid to share information, and gets offended if you are perceived by them to be poaching *their* territory. So you sort the reactive people out and save them for what they're good at...if you can find a mutual path thru the thickets, that is.

A good example is the founder of the EDL. He's an amazing fellow, but I wasn't surprised to hear he'd had a falling-out with those who gathered 'round his idea. In some ways, he was a born leader. In other ways, reactivity would be a problem. In addition, he seemed to be unable to follow others’ lead. Thus, eventually there was no role for him in the group *he* founded. That sure hurts.

Back before the EDL, when he hid out here in the US (a few years back), the Baron and I supported him financially (we wuz "rich" then --i.e., full-time work). In addition, a fellow blogger gave him a condo to live in, rent free. On a golf course, no less!

Eventually, though, he went back to England to be persecuted repeatedly by the police and QC. His answer was to form the EDL. Genius move.

I wish he could've sustained it, but such an undertaking requires immense patience and an almost zen-like ability to suffer fools gladly and to bear intense official persecution. Few ppl have all those resources. I'm hoping & praying Tommy is able to hold onto his. i sure couldn't do what he's doing.

Anyway, conflict shows up as regular as rain, and you look in your toolbox to see what would work best for the moment. Often, the best tool is...an umbrella.

More often though, you feel as if you're caught in a Neal Stephenson novel.

Hesperado said...

Correction:

Scratch my "Neither" (and, if this keeps up, my "Nether").

Sagunto said...

Hesperado -

wrote:

"Since this Roberta Moore character seems to be at the epicenter of this controversy, I suggest she be requested to publish an explanation providing her perspective, and proving (with documentation, if she can supply it) her alleged allegations about the EDL."

Second that.

On a further note. The EDL, in origin at least, seems to be a grassroots movement of common English citizens defending their neighbourhoods. It might be possible that the opinion of some notorious blogger counts as a serious blow to this movement, but given its grassroots nature and support in their own community, I can't see why. As @Dymphna rightly observes about Vlaams Belang; they also survived attacks from the blogosphere. Same goes for the EDL, I reckon.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

EDL English Defence League Jewish Division said...

Hesperado

Roberta is in France. Perhaps you should see by your wrongful assumption that I am Roberta, how assumptions such as the ones you have made can be completely off the mark.

"Neither Geller, Spencer, nor Roberta Moore have not yet proven these allegations.

We're all ears. What's the holdup? Or do they need time to manufacture "facts" after the fact?"

As already stated above, which you have deliberately ignored, the evidence is available online on the web through several links already given on the Jewish Division page.
And has been for weeks.

We are not responsible for intellectual laziness.

EDL English Defence League Jewish Division said...

And to finalize, Roberta does not have to provide any explanation for the lies invented about her. Those who accused her and manipulated her words are the ones who will have to explain themselves sooner rather than later.

Although many of you here know her, so you can always ask her these questions yourselves rather than perpetuate the lies and the defamation of her character.

Sagunto said...

I'd like to hear from the "EDL English Defence League Freemasons Division" and their take on this unfortunate incident. Perhaps the "EDL English Defence League Ginger Division" may choose to weigh in on the matter and provide their perspective.

But seriously, why on earth was it decided to erect a specific division within a movement whose members only seek to defend their families and the neighbourhoods where they grew up?

Sag.

latté island said...

Sagunto, maybe that's the best way to get lots of people to show up, without having to deal with power struggles, dominance and prejudice. For instance, in England, lots of people dislike gingers. If I were a ginger, I'd prefer to affiliate with other gingers, because when pro and anti gingers are in the same group, they run the risk of spending more time debating gingerism than opposing Islam.

The EDL's special interest groups may function as a safety valve. Even if the various factions are incompatible, they don't feel pressured to pretend to be something they're not, or like people they don't like, because they know their coalition is only a coalition, rather than a fake, coerced identity.

myeeepcgk said...

I cant help feel that there is serious problem when I read things like this.

The EDL is supposed to be about protecting England from Islamisation. Why do Jews have to make this a Jewish issue ?

A small number of infiltrator scum will always be there - left/right extremists work that way. It`s a constant battle to get rid of them. But why does Geller & Co wish to turn this into a Jewish issue when this is about the English.

Why don't Geller and Co campaign in their local Jewish communities to have those extremist leftwing Jews who funded or campaigned for Obama bannished from the local Synagogues and communities ? The left wing "Jew hating Jews" are far worse for Israel than a small number of fascits infiltrators that will eventually get expelled, yet I`ve never seen Jews like Geller campaign to have them bannished from their local Jewish communities. Double standard because we arent Jewish ?

Why is it, that for us to defend ourselves from Islamisation, that we have to somehow make it a Jewish issue ?

Until they start banning the local left wing extremist Jews from their local communities, we should ignore everything Jewish/Israeli and concentrate 100% of stopping Islamisation. I`m not saying to stop purging the fascitsts, they will always be there like a virus trying to infect us - we must constantly work to rid them. But I dont see why we should try to accomodate people so self-centred that they take our goals of defending our culture from extinction, and turn into a Jewish cause - especially when they refuse to act on their own people trying to destroy them.

I guess saying this makes evil or something.

latté island said...

mye...: Pamela Geller is not the Queen of the Jews. She has no control over what other Jews do, and it's probably not within her magic Jew powers to get leftist Jews banished from their local Jewish communities. What do you mean, banished? Forced to leave the neighborhood? Kicked out of the synagogue? Um, we're not the Amish.

Why do you assume Jews are making this a Jewish issue? Charles Johnson at LGF isn't Jewish, and neither is Robert Spencer.

I myself have no idea what's going on, so I'm not going to comment on the issue itself. But unlike the current EDL controversy, your comment is very easy to deconstruct. I won't bother, your type doesn't come around except at certain times. Oh, I could reframe your question as, why do some people come out of the woodwork and make this a Jewish issue.

DP111 said...

The EDL is the only grassroots movement in the West that is against the destruction of Western civilisation. It is the only one that has the courage to go out on the streets, even into Muslim areas, and face the hostility and violence of Muslims, Left wing extremists, the police and the media. There is nothing like it in the West. There are now movements in the West that have modelled themselves on the EDL.

The EDL is way above and beyond the likes of single bloggers such as Geller and Spencer, or for that matter any blogs. The EDL does not need to apologise or explain itself - its very being and what it does, is more then enough. The rest is immaterial. It does not need to have an apology from Spencer or Geller, as it is far bigger, stronger, and motivated enough to step on to the real battlefield, rather then merely bemoan the Islamisation of the West - they are real soldiers, who get bloodied and injured, rather then armchair commentators on the passing scene.

My hat off to the EDL. Support it, as your life, and the lives of your descendants, depends on these few.

doxRaven said...

News item: After Holocaust denial conference, warm meeting takes place between Iranian president, and a particular group. They jointly announce
"Zionists are criminals "

Now, if members of the EDL had the same meeting, according to Pamela we would be dealing with neo-Nazis.

It turns out, as most would know, that we are dealing with orthodox jews. Unfortunately, the world is a bit more complex and nuanced than Pamela can cope with in her blogging.

Sagunto said...

Latté -

you wrote:

"The EDL's special interest groups may function as a safety valve."

They (how many "special divisions" are there?) might; doesn't seem that way.

In my opinion, a true grassroots movement with the sole aim of actually defending neighbourhoods against Islam in real (analog) life, wouldn't need these "divisions".
The only special interest here is the same that we all share in the AIM, i.e. to keep their (our) eye on the ball which is Islam and its carriers.

Turn ever so slightly away from that, and be ready to meet with politicization.

Take care,
Sag.

Homophobic Horse said...

I love Zenster.

allat said...

WOW!

Any anybody else figured that this is the classic tactic of "DIVIDE AND CONQUER"?

An islamic chisel against the United Front of their opponents.

And it's working.

Baron Bodissey said...

EDL-JDL (Not Roberta) --

Let me see if I have this straight:

You and your fellows are gathering this information now for something that the EDL was condemned for more than 24 hours ago. Is that right?

Furthermore, you say that if I wanted to take the trouble, I could find the “evidence” myself on the forums and FB chats and other places where EDL people hang out. Is that correct?

Well, if I did that, and it convinced me, I would publish it.

But that’s not what Pamela Geller did. Her court issued its verdict and sentenced the accused. If you are to believed, only after that, did she send you, her intrepid investigators, scurrying around to collect the evidence that will justify the conviction of the defendant.

This, as we say in the USA, is bass-ackwards.

Now, I imagine that you eventually will find some of the “evidence” you’re seeking, and when you do, I’m sure you won’t hesitate to make it public.

But I’ll go out on a limb and speculate as to what sort of “evidence” that will be.

It won’t involve any of the EDL’s national leaders. No divisional leaders will be among those indicted. No site admins will be included. Nor will any spokesmen, nor anyone else in a position of significant responsibility.

Somewhere out there in Bumburg-on-the-Ouse is a weird old neo-Nazi crank holed up under the eaves with a monitor and a keyboard, pecking away whatever he has to say on the EDL forum. There may even be several others like him.

In other words, the EDL is like any other large popular broad-based organization, and attracts its share of cranks. In that sense, it’s no different from the Rotarians or the Knights of Columbus.

In any case, by your own admission, Pamela Geller went to press with nothing more than the word of Roberta Moore and perhaps a few of her associates. She smeared the entire EDL based on these allegations, and whatever “evidence” she had at the time wasn’t considered important enough to publish along with her accusations and repudiation of the English Defence League.

This is journalism at its shoddiest. The National Enquirer does a better job of backing up its sensational headlines.

If I’m wrong — if anyone discovers actual evidence that there are neo-Nazis in the woodpile of the leadership and management of the EDL — I’ll post a prominent public retraction.

If the opposite is true — if nothing ever emerges from all this except the rantings of some fringe cranks — will those who slandered the EDL issue their retractions?

I have my doubts.

By the way — for those of you who think that what Pamela Geller did will have no effect on the future fortunes of the EDL, think again. She may be on the other side of the Atlantic, but her blog is very popular and widely-read, as are some of the other sites that picked up this story from her. Atlas Shrugs has ten times the readership that this blog has, and probably a hundred times as many American readers.

Some of those American readers are wealthy philanthropists — not just Jewish, but all different types — who trust what she says and may make decisions based on it. If the EDL is ever to move beyond the street-demo model into something larger, it will need well-heeled donors. Geert discovered that American benefactors were crucial to his cause, and the EDL may well come to the same conclusion.

So don’t overlook the possibility that Ms. Geller has the indirect ability to close (or open) significant doors for the EDL.

ChrisLA said...

I believe GoV is wrong on this issue. Pam Geller is a staunch supporter of EDL, and has been from the get-go. The problem is that its mission has been compromized by a few anti-Semites. All Pam is asking is that these elements be rooted out and that the EDL get back to it's original mission which is to counter the Islamization of Great Britain. Rather than admonish Pam Geller, GoV should be calling on EDL to clean up its staff and get back to its mission.

Hesperado said...

EDL English Defence League Jewish Division wrote in response to my post:

"Roberta is in France. Perhaps you should see by your wrongful assumption that I am Roberta, how assumptions such as the ones you have made can be completely off the mark."

This reminds me of another problem in the AIM (the Anti-Islam Movement) -- at least, perhaps, in its Blogospheric dimension: a rather common failure to read carefully.

My wording on this particular (and not terribly relevant) sub-point indicated I was unsure of whether the above-named commenter is Roberta or not but that Baron's immediately following comment implied that it is (I didn't say I agreed with that implication; indeed, I said I found it odd, given that the above-named commenter, if indeed Roberta Moore, was strangely referring to herself in the third person). The above-named commenter then translates my wording by trampling all over its tentative nuances and rendering its gist as my "wrongful assumption", when I never made an assumption to begin with.

Now, moving on to more important stuff:

"As already stated above, which you have deliberately ignored, the evidence is available online on the web through several links already given on the Jewish Division page."

If by "the Jewish Division page" the above-named commenter means this link, so far I am finding rather slim pickings facts-wise. Example:

"In February an EDL spokesman admitted Ms Moore's "gung-ho attitude" had "caused a great deal of trouble and unrest".
That person was not a spokesman. He/she was a fraud. But the JC only follows the tracks of the frauds it seems.
A new group, the Jewish Defence League of Great Britain, has now also distanced itself from Ms Moore.
Absolute rubbish and lies. There is no such group in the UK."


And there's more of the same bargain-basement quality "evidence" where that comes from.

This is just he said/he said, with both sides (this "Andrew Gatward" character, and the writer of his "refutation") providing no evidence for their claims.

I could care less about this "Andrew Gatward" character. The point is, at this juncture, we need to see a concise yet pertinently comprehensive statement from Roberta Moore which should clear everything up. Asking people, in lieu of this, to go hunting down "links" that lead to shoddy pseudo-evidence that read like the heated arguments one might overhear in the next booth in a smoke-filled Guiness-scented pub at 1:00 pm will simply not do.

Hesperado said...

Sagunto,

"As @Dymphna rightly observes about Vlaams Belang; they also survived attacks from the blogosphere. Same goes for the EDL, I reckon."

They may have survived, but wouldn't it be nice to be given further boosts, rather than giving the other side hostile to us ammunition? One ought to expect the former from anyone in the AIM -- particularly someone as relatively influential as Robert Spencer, and hold his feet to the fire with regard to it.

Hesperado said...

The poster named "myeeepckg" (why can't commenters pick easy names, like "Hesperado"?) wrote:

I dont see why we should try to accomodate people so self-centred that they take our goals of defending our culture from extinction, and turn into a Jewish cause...

I believe this is not just a matter of certain Jewish individuals forming a wing or chapter within the EDL all by themselves out of the blue: it is part of the EDL's "outreach" to try to placate the dominant PC MC society around it, lest that dominant society accuse it of being a bunch of working-class "antisemitic" and "racist" louts with Guiness-breath. Ditto for the EDL going out of its way to encourage other minority members.

I don't necessarily mind an anti-Islam group going out of its way to include minority members, but one should be mindful of the massive fact that if your group is anti-Islam, the dominant and mainstream PC MC society is not going to be impressed that you have a smattering of Jews, a Sikh or two, a gay and/or a lesbian (perhaps also a pre- or post-op transsexual thrown in for good measure), and maybe a happy Jamaican black with dreadlocks on your team, to demonstrate your "tolerant" bonafides. Muslims trump all other PC considerations: once you are anti-Muslim (doesn't matter if you claim you are not "anti-Muslim" but "only anti-Islam" or "only anti-Sharia", the implication will still be imputed), you are automatically slotted into the category of "bigot"/"racist"/"hater"/"fascist".

The PC MC paradigm works like a machine. No human thought is involved.

Sagunto said...

Hesperado -

Those on the other side will be hostile anyway, most certainly the Muslims, so I don't know whether the verdict of Mrs. Geller is of such great importance in the neighbourhoods where the EDL has its roots. It would be different if the EDL were an organization dependent on revenues from people who listen to her, but from any real grassroots movement I expect that not to be the case.

Ditto for Vlaams Belang. As I see it, that party depends on the again, grassroots support of Flemish people. What some US blogger has to say, shouldn't harm the party that much, not where it concerns the support of the people who reallly count (the Flemish populace).

Take care,
Sag.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

@ChrisLA, no, she didn't call for them to merely clean up, she called for their supporters to leave and form a new group. She has been waiting for some time, meaning she had already made up her mind that the EDL was a bad apple and was merely looking for a suitable public moment to voice her "concerns".

She said:

I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group

From an outsider perspective this looks like a very clear power-play by Moore, who left the EDL because she wasn't allowed to run her little fief the way she wanted.

Geller has declared the EDL broken beyond repair. Even her posting of the statement by Tommy Robinson refused to concede that she had made a mistake. She is glad that they "recognise they have a problem", when it's obvious that she has a problem - she believed the words of one person, who claimed without evidence that the EDL was overrun with fascists. Her initial post on the matter made it clear that she completely rejected the EDL, not that she wanted it to "clean up", but that she wanted it to go away and die. That isn't the act of an ally or a friend.

The break has been made now. We'll hear a succession of "all she's asking" that demand more and more purity and more stringent adherence to her way of thinking, more centralisation, more "control" over the group message and so forth until the EDL is turned into a useless shadow. And if they ever stray from her path, they'll be declared The Enemy and forever tossed under the bus.

Pam is wrong; she is wrong about the scale of the problem, she is wrong about the target, she is wrong about who she trusts to be an impartial witness, and she is wrong about the solution to the problem she and Moore have essentially cut from whole cloth. Her words are indefensible in this light.

Baron Bodissey said...

Blogger still won't accept comments from Seneca III, so he asked us to post this one for him.

=============

I despair. Whilst we the Counter Jihad tear ourselves to ideological shreds over the importunate chatter of one small group the Umma waits quietly, united in direction and purpose, ready to pounce.

We in the CJ wade in deep waters wherein all matters of great import inevitably attract a proportion of both borderline and actual paranoid schizophrenics. Typically others then gratefully nurture such damaged souls, others within who have brought their own agenda to the communal table.

Neither can be cured or changed; they must simply be ignored and left to destroy themselves whilst the rest of us carry on in our common purpose. These may well be the ‘Wilderness Years’ for our cause, but we must do everything in our power not to prolong them.

Curette, quarantine, monitor, and do it quickly. E Pluribus Unum or nothing.

Seneca III.

Hesperado said...

Sagunto,

I think Baron put it well in his post somewhere above about the importance of support:

"for those of you who think that what Pamela Geller did will have no effect on the future fortunes of the EDL, think again. She may be on the other side of the Atlantic, but her blog is very popular and widely-read, as are some of the other sites that picked up this story from her. Atlas Shrugs has ten times the readership that this blog has, and probably a hundred times as many American readers.

Some of those American readers are wealthy philanthropists — not just Jewish, but all different types — who trust what she says and may make decisions based on it. If the EDL is ever to move beyond the street-demo model into something larger, it will need well-heeled donors. Geert discovered that American benefactors were crucial to his cause, and the EDL may well come to the same conclusion.

So don’t overlook the possibility that Ms. Geller has the indirect ability to close (or open) significant doors for the EDL."

[end quote]

Sometimes I get the impression that many relatively sophisticated, educated, intelligent Westerners are, for all that, less savvy than Muslims are about the long-term effectiveness of networking, disparate patterns of mutual support, and slowly coalescing coherence of resolve translated into a coordination of myriad, often seemingly unrelated, maneuvers.

Muslims understand (because they are scripted through their Sunna to understand, not because they think like normal enlightened reasonable Westerners) that a trans-civilizational war may take a very long time -- not just decades but centuries -- and a multitude of different factors and a vast diverse army of different people performing many different functions -- not merely hotheaded vociferations in the street against barricades (however valuable that latter modus operandi may be).

(That Muslims also often frustrate that particular savvy through their own dysfunctional tendencies toward internecine paranoia is beside the point: their savviness on this matter, further augmented by their ultra-fanaticism, has gotten terrible and horrible things done throughout history up into our hot present; and we need similar savviness on our side to minimize the effects of theirs as much as possible.)

1389 said...

Please add 1389 Blog to the list of signers. It's a team blog, but I am the primary admin, and I have the authority to do this.

You already know where I stand on this matter! Please notify the other bloggers who are putting up this letter. I plan to post it later today.

spackle said...

Baron Said:

"In other words, the EDL is like any other large popular broad-based organization, and attracts its share of cranks. In that sense, it’s no different from the Rotarians or the Knights of Columbus."

True. Didnt the American Left do their upmost (and still does) to smear the Tea Party as a bunch of "racists", "Fascists" and Militia Nuts? I dont ever recall seeing actual proof though it is probable that there are some nuts in the Tea Party. But so what? I have some loons in my own family. Does that make my whole lineage insane? This smear seems like the same thing although with different motivations. Part purity? Ego? I dont know.

spackle said...

Sorry. "Party Purity".

Hesperado said...

Seneca III wrote:

"I despair. Whilst we the Counter Jihad tear ourselves to ideological shreds..."

I don't see anyone tearing themselves to shreds, ideological or otherwise. We are having a relatively calm, yet earnestly concerned, discussion about an important rift within the AIM, and about the seemingly irresponsible and needless actions by one or two influential individuals that brought that rift about in the first place.

All human groups -- whether friends, families, small clubs, or large organizations -- have disagreements and arguments. The key is not to try to avoid or eliminate all dissension within a group (since it is part of being human to have disagreements), but to try to do it with optimum maturity and efficiency relative to the group's ultimate goals. Suppression is never the solution -- whether psychologically, or sociologically.

Hesperado said...

It would be helpful if Tommy Robinson himself contributed his name to the list of signatories of this Open Letter.

PatriotUSA said...

DP111:
I could not agree more and The EDL has seen the future under islam, excessive immigration and sharia law. England is already buckling under idiotic gov't pandering to muslims and other immigrants just like what is happening here in the USA, especially under the first muslim potus, the mullah in the White House even through our immigration problem transcends many administrations.

Why should the EDL need to apologize for anything. they are the ones out on the front line, in the streets fighting for the country they love and WANT BACK.

Judging by some of these comments, it is really sad to see so many bash the EDL this way.

I lost a lot of respect for Geller and Spencer a couple of years ago but will not go into those details here.

This is about the EDL and total snobbery and disrespecting the EDL when they should be supporting the EDL instead of attacking them in this way, and doing it so publicly.

Quiet_Man said...

The Roberta Moore "incident" has been simmering in the EDL now for a few months since she unilaterally attempted to ally the EDL with Chaim Ben Pesach and the Jewish Task Force, something no average member of the EDL was ever going to stand for once the facts had been ascertained. The whole matter came to a head on the EDL forum in this post.
I would ask you to pay particular attention to the posts of one R. Bartolomeus, starting at post 182 whom I believe to be your poster "EDL English Defence League Jewish Division" in which he calls for one of the EDL angels (womens) division "You are a filthy liar with an nazi agenda, probably an expose troll, and full of shit. I hope a muslim rapes you."
I suggest you read the thread and make your own minds up just who is showing the Nazi mentality.

Baron Bodissey said...

1389 --

Thank you. I'll add you, but I can't notify all the others; there are simply too many now. We just have to hope they look at GoV.

Armance said...

The Roberta Moore "incident" has been simmering in the EDL now for a few months since she unilaterally attempted to ally the EDL with Chaim Ben Pesach and the Jewish Task Force, something no average member of the EDL was ever going to stand for once the facts had been ascertained. The whole matter came to a head on the EDL forum in this post.
I would ask you to pay particular attention to the posts of one R. Bartolomeus, starting at post 182 whom I believe to be your poster "EDL English Defence League Jewish Division" in which he calls for one of the EDL angels (womens) division "You are a filthy liar with an nazi agenda, probably an expose troll, and full of shit. I hope a muslim rapes you."
I suggest you read the thread and make your own minds up just who is showing the Nazi mentality.


That was exactly the thread that I read yesterday on the EDL's forum, and I was wondering how EDLers have been able to stand in an alliance with such bullies for so long. EDL leaders and members might be saints material to resist and accept that kind of mental terrorism and intimidation for the sake of diversity in their ranks. I would have told those people GTFO a long, long time ago.

But that's the tragedy of the West, in a nutshell.

Lawrence said...

I think there is a serious misunderstanding somewhere.

Baron recently posted a note about Tommy of EDL seeking to eliminate the fascist-like biases, in support of EDL.

Pam posts again regarding this issue, and above quotes support of Tommy's efforts.

While Pam taking an aggressive editorial opinion approach to this, Baron's recent post reads more like any news report with some base of fact.

So, from both authors, it is clear that EDL may very well have some serious problems. However, the latest retoric from EDL leadership, Baron, and Pamela all appear to me to be saying similar things in support of Israel and in support of counter-Jihad.

So, I'm not seeing the disconnect. But the fallout form this disconnect is disheartening.

Zenster said...

Seneca III: We in the CJ wade in deep waters wherein all matters of great import inevitably attract a proportion of both borderline and actual paranoid schizophrenics.

Whereas, Islam simply recruits and kills (via bomb vests) ― or just plain murders ― any such individuals that it attracts.

Sort of like a porcupine. Not particularly fast or intelligent but it has one Hell of a defensive system.

Nick said...

Having just read Ms. Geller's latest comments on this topic, all I can say is that Ms. Geller appears to have quite the ego.

Maybe she's turned on the EDL because they had Elisabeth Sabaditch Wolff speaking at one of their events after she fell out with her. Oh yes, Ms. Geller, all sweetness and light, fell out with Ms. Sabaditch Wolff too.

I wonder if Ms. Geller considers this a 'revealing incident'?

Is there anyone out there who Ms. Geller hasn't fallen out with, I wonder?

Ms. Geller now says that she is not withdrawing her support of the EDL, but that she is deeply concerned instead.

Well whoop-di-doo!

Jewish Odysseus said...

A useful, please pardon my French, French expression, which has never got a lot of support in the blogosphere:
"Words are silver, but silence is gold."

Another, this one from Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Another, from Boston pol Martin Lomasney: "Never write if you can speak. Never speak if you can nod. Never nod if you can wink."

What is not said need not be explained, or explained away.

Also: Today's burning news is tomorrow's fishwrap.

Remember that one beautiful, cardinal word, my CounterJihad comrades, one single, precious word: Solidarnosc.

Armance said...

The most hilarious thing in all this affair is calling Baron, according to Ms. Geller, a "Machiavellian plotter". I cannot stop laughing. Baron is mild as a lamb, sometimes too mild, in my opinion. If this is how a Machavellian plotter looks like, it might be a confusion between Machiavelli and Francis of Assisi.

Zenster said...

Nick: Oh yes, Ms. Geller, all sweetness and light, fell out with Ms. Sabaditch Wolff too.

Any background on that?!? Links would be appreciated.

Jewish Odysseus: Remember that one beautiful, cardinal word, my CounterJihad comrades, one single, precious word: Solidarnosc.

Le bingo!

Our solidarity will have to equal and exceed that of Islam's if we are to have much hope. All the advanced military hardware in the world is of no avail if there isn't an organized brigade to deploy it.

Nick said...

@JewishOdysseus,
Amazing quote from Cromwell! I've never heard that, but I'll keep it now, burned into my brain for the day when I can use it, lol ...

Baron Bodissey said...

Hey! Armance! Quit insulting me! I can be as Machiavellian as the next guy! I swear!

I'm a bad boy. Honest, I am...

Zenster said...

Geller really steps over the line with this latest rubbish. It is also quite illuminating with regard to why Fjordman has decided to close commenting on some of his articles.

This, from Atlas Shrugs:

At the same time, and probably not coincidentally, Gates of Vienna has become a home for many anti-Semitic rants that are deeply disturbing; not only are these sanctioned by the proprietors, but they’ve added to the chorus. [emphasis added]

This is a most reprehensible accusation and indicative of just how low Geller will stoop to preserve her own celebrity.

Nick said...

@latte,
Ah but if you'd care to re-read Chapter 18 of 'The Prince' you'll find that Machiavelli advises that a virtuoso prince (or baron) should only appear merciful, faithful, humane, trustworthy, religious ...

Armance said...

I can be as Machiavellian as the next guy! I swear!

Now, since you've been denounced as a Machiavellian plotter and you've admitted it yourself, my idea is that you should nickname yourself Cesare Borgia; accordingly, Dymphna might be Lucrezia Borgia. Your blog should be described like this: "The Gates of Rome. We're in a new phase of a very old story of conspiracy, murder, poisoning, orgies and incest. Stay tuned!".

Baron Bodissey said...

Can I have my cake and eat it, too? Can I be St. Francis of Borgia, maybe...?

spackle said...

Baron:

I am curious. Over at Atlas Pamela is using your real (I assume) name. Did she out you or was this in the ether beforehand? I hope it was. Because if it wasnt that is lower then low.

Zenster said...

spackle: I am curious. Over at Atlas Pamela is using your real (I assume) name. Did she out you or was this in the ether beforehand? I hope it was.

Curiously enough, one of the first (unauthorized), namings of the Baron was done right here at GoV by none other than Robert Spencer himself.

Right around that same time some other scum sucking bottom feeder revealed the Baron's name in full somewhere else on the internet.

All that can be said is; when a person persistently uses an online pseudonym, it is only commmon courtesy that one should adhere to such a precedent.

Clearly, such trivialities as well-established internet protocols must not be permitted to intrude upon the rarefied stratosphere which the likes of Geller and Spencer inhabit.

Baron Bodissey said...

spackle --

I've been "out" for a year, since I started writing for Big Peace. But I don't think Pamela realizes this.

In other words, she probably thinks she outed me, but she didn't.

Robert did the same thing here, in our comments, a few months before I went public -- he used my real name. He was outing me.

However, I knew I was going public soon after that, so his action did not have what may have been its intended effect.

spackle said...

Baron:

That is still outrageous considering the work you do. In some ways I don't see the difference in outing a CIA agent and people like yourself who are well known CJs.The potential dangers are very real. At least CIA agents are highly trained in the use of weapons, covering their tracks and other "Spook" techniques. If the both of them were unaware of your coming out yourself they should be beyond ashamed. It would also speak volumes about their character.

Baron Bodissey said...

spackle --

In the case of Robert, he had to know exactly what he was doing, because at that time I had not yet posted anything under my real name. As far as he knew, I intended to remain pseudonymous.

I have my theories about the reasons for his action, but it would serve no purpose for me to recount them here, since they of necessity remain speculative.

Suffice it to say that I don't think it had the intended effect, because I left his comment intact.

Dymphna said...

Archonix--

You're right. The EDL is being tossed under the bus because their purity level is in question.

Boy, the flashbacks to 2007! You were around during that Purity Purge. Is this not an echo?

Tommy’s letter to Atlas reminds me of those LGF attacks against European groups after the Brussels Conference. Chazzer also went after the Americans, including Pamela Geller & keynote speaker Robert Spencer.

A leading member of Sverigedemokraterna asked CJ to look at the evidence & stop persecuting. Instead, Chas posted his email & a new entity who’d been installed in the comments - “Dave of Sweden”, iirc – could begin the work of smearing SD. Ol’ Dave was a big fan of Expo, the NGO-Soros-funded-gov’t-approved group tasked w/ ridding Sweden of SD. As James Lewis would write later [American Thinker] Chas was used by Belgian black psy ops too.

Such ugly, sad memories. Pamela in the comments begging Chazzer to forgive her & be her friend. Fjordman asking commenters to be reasonable. After all, he’d been @ Brussels.

Me? I got outta Dodge. My survival instinct kicked in. No fortitude at all in the face of CJ’s scary volte face. When he began to use primitive metaphors –e.g., “something smells bad in these comments”, I tiptoed out. In previous professional work I was taught to watch such language as a ‘tell’.

In a longer term cui bono deliberation my conclusions, accurate or not, satisfied Occam’s Law for me. IMO, CJ was after his next “Dan Rather Moment”, something so good he’d shoot to a Daily Kos level. The via? Why, shining a light on all us hidden Nazi-lovers. CJ would ride in on his white horse & save the Right. Only thing was, he didn’t know jack re Europe; his lethal leftist Nazi heeber jeebers rode him. Then, long after he’d shredded his integrity, even his intelligence came into question.
[con’t]

Nick said...

Machiavelli lays down a foundational principle several times as he examines ‘the dirty hands problem’ in 'The Prince'. Machiavelli insists that a prince possessing virtu will take human nature into account when he acts. Why Machiavelli believes this is necessary is clear enough, once we see how Machiavelli describes mankind:

"For one can generally say this about men: they are ungrateful, fickle, simulators and deceivers, avoiders of danger, and greedy for gain." (Ch.17)

".. men are a wicked lot and will not keep their promises to you .." (Ch. 18)

".. let me say that all men, when they are spoken of, and especially princes [and barons!], since they are placed on a higher level - are judged by some of those qualities that bring them either blame or praise. And this is why one is considered generous, another miserly ... One is considered a giver, the other rapacious; one cruel, the other merciful; one a breaker of faith, the other faithful; one effeminate and cowardly, the other fierce and courageous; one humane, the other proud; one lascivious, the other chaste; one trustworthy, the other shrewd; one hard, the other easygoing; one serious, the other frivolous; one religious, the other unbelieving; and the like. And I know that everyone will admit it would be a very praiseworthy thing to find in a prince those qualities mentioned above that are held to be good. But since it is neither possible to have them nor to observe them all completely, because the human condition does not permit it ...” (Ch. 15, italics mine.)

“A man who wishes to profess goodness at all times will come to ruin among so many who are not good. Therefore, it is necessary for a prince who wishes to maintain himself to learn how not to be good, and to use this knowledge or not use it according to necessity.” (Ch. 15)

Nick said...

If one takes the view that Islam teaches its followers not to honour any peace treaties, to lie about their religion in order to advance their religion, and one understands that the ultimate aim of the ummah is to undermine your state, and to establish shariah law, then Machiavelli’s arguments leap into focus. You may want to conduct yourself in a way that is considered ‘good’ but the nature of the people you’re dealing with won’t allow that. They see that as weakness and opportunity.

I suggest that if one is serious about countering the current ‘jihad’ then obviously, an understanding of the nature of our opponents is necessary. Studying the texts which inform the thinking of the ummah is one way of gaining some insight into that. One can also take an empirical view, and observe (for instance) the way Christians are regularly maltreated and persecuted in Islamic countries. It may seem obvious to anyone already familiar with such data that the nature of the ummah can be described in terms very similar to those employed by Machiavelli. But we all know that politicians, journalists or writers who understand this are few and far between. If the owner of a CJ website has that understanding, then he is to be applauded. He has done the research needed to run a CJ website properly, and he has eyes to see what is going on in the world today.

Machiavelli’s conclusion is that one cannot behave in a generous, merciful, humane fashion with people who may say one thing to your face, whose affirmations rest upon the most solemn of oaths, but who will betray you in a heartbeat. Because a devout Muslim’s loyalty is to the ummah, first, foremost and always. If a blogger goes beyond the mere recognition of the nature of devout Islamists and recognises this, then that too is to be applauded. If a blogger goes beyond this, and is both able to understand the moral implications of the ‘dirty hands problem’ and has the moral courage to accept Machiavelli’s conclusions, then we are in the presence of an impressive individual indeed.

So if anyone unfamiliar with Machiavelli chooses to portray someone within the context of Machiavelli’s work, and wants to believe that by doing so they are not doing that person a profound service, then they are very mistaken. To say that a blogger in the Counter-jihad movement understands the true nature of the jihad, and appreciates just what it’s going to take for the West to maintain our own nation-states and prevail against Islam in all its different guises, is to pay them the highest complement.

Dymphna said...

con't


CJ’s tactics worked but his larger ambition failed. He marginalized some, us & Geller included. The Bigs? Their chirping silence was taken as assent. Bless Michelle Malkin; she alone linked us.

Chazzer’s slide into paranoia, tossing Bigs out, gave each his own enlightenment. Few saw any wrong in their former silence -- Cyberworld is just a logical extension of the Malthusian universe we’ve all known since the schoolyard. Big Blogs are mini-me versions of the MSM they claim to have transcended. Nuh uh, boys. Fear about market share b u 2.

Chazzer’s ambitions crumbled under the weight of reality. He never became the Right’s Daily Kos. The Repub’s leaders never came to crown him with many crowns. So he took his marbles (the few remaining) and went back to the Left, where his heart was.

Pamela rebuilt her brand and was a smashing success. But her tactics began to echo LGF’s: demonizing those not pure enough. Thus we are among the Unclean. Geller’s Begones look like the LGF-soviet-style picture cropping.

I was clueless re her enmity till I put her in an email to some women re health data. Her blistering response was my first clue. Whoo boy.

John Jay’s claim that our survival is due to Geller? Delusion. We survived despite the hatred. Our continued usefulness is due to a resilient widespread community which doesn’t depend on traffic. Meanwhile, things are as Archonix said:

Pam is wrong; she is wrong about the scale of the problem, she is wrong about the target, she is wrong about who she trusts to be an impartial witness, and she is wrong about the solution to the problem she and Moore have essentially cut from whole cloth. Her words are indefensible in this light.

Well Archonix, as one writer said, “Geller Happens”.

Nick said...

Apologies, Dymphna, I didn't notice that you'd posted, or that you intended to continue; Ijust opened the box, copy/pasted & sent mine in. Sorry about that.

Nick said...

Just thought I'd have a bit of fun with Ms. Geller and let her know that she'd just paid the Baron a compliment, LOL ...

Hesperado said...

Lawrence Auster has an astute update on Geller's attempt to try to squirm out of the corner she has painted herself in while at the same time trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat and juggle six balls riding a unicycle.

Nick said...

Posted that at Atlas. Think it'll stay up there? Think anyone (including the site owner) will even get it? We shall see, LOL ...

Nick said...

"Machiavelli’s conclusion is that one cannot behave in a generous, merciful, humane fashion with people who may say one thing to your face, whose affirmations rest upon the most solemn of oaths, but who will betray you in a heartbeat. Because a devout Muslim’s loyalty is to the ummah, first, foremost and always. If a blogger goes beyond the mere recognition of the nature of devout Islamists and recognises this, then that too is to be applauded. If a blogger goes beyond this, and is both able to understand the moral implications of the ‘dirty hands problem’ and has the moral courage to accept Machiavelli’s conclusions, then we are in the presence of an impressive individual indeed."

Just to clarify: I'm referring first of all to Machiavelli's conclusions about what one can not do. In the antecedent of the paragraph's final conditional statement, I refer to Machiavelli's conclusions about what one must do.

If I can put it like that ...

Baron Bodissey said...

Hesperado --

I've been following Auster on this, and seems to see it clearly and accurately. I'm glad he's paying such close attention.

Nick said...

@Hesperado,
Maybe Ms. Geller would like to audition for Penn & Teller. They're on tomorrow night. ITV, 9 o'clock. If she hurries, she just might make it.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Geller happens. That's a keeper that is.

The frustrating aspect of this is how pointless it all is. Any organisation will have a few bad apples. Loudly proclaiming it and demanding "change" when there's little to be done doesn't help, and in fact usually makes things worse.

It frustrates me more that this could have been easily dealt with if Pamela had simply tried to find second sources for their accusations before making them public. In journalism it used to be that you had to have two independently verified sources for a story before publishing (used to be, not any more) - which meant not taking you friend's word for it without checking to see if he or she had some justification for what they said.

If Pam had stuck to "trust but verify" she might have found out that her "friend" was telling porkies.

Nick said...

Never mind, she's backtracked and withrawn her withdrawl of support for the EDL.

As you suggest, if she'd cared to listen to what Tommy Robinson had to say - and it was a stirring statement which laid down very clearly that the EDL supports Israel - then she wouldn't have needed to change her mind and do a 180.

(Good points made at the Lawrence Auster site btw. Spot on.)

Hesperado said...

Nick,

Penn and Teller could saw her in half -- thereby freeing Spencer from his Siamese twin.

Nick said...

I tried to post a comment quoting Ms. Geller's saying that she is not withdrawing her support for the EDL after all. I said that it was a 'flip-flop'. A spectacular 180!

And discovered that Ms. Geller no longer wishes to hear what people have to say on the subject of her changing her mind.

Colour me shocked. Not.

Hesperado said...

Archonix,

"Any organisation will have a few bad apples. Loudly proclaiming it and demanding "change" when there's little to be done doesn't help, and in fact usually makes things worse."

This isn't an accurate description of what Geller did. What she did was worseworse: She withdrew her support from the EDL on the basis of the principle that the "few bad apples" had made the whole barrel rotten -- without even providing evidence of the few bad apples.

Hesperado said...

"worseworse" works :)

Zenster said...

Baron Bodissey: I've been following Auster on this, and seems to see it clearly and accurately.

I read through Auster's article as well and he nails it pretty thoroughly. His characterizations of Spencer and Geller are on the money.

I will throw in a mild "I told you so" (not that anyone argued at the time), in the form of; the EDL got it right the first time when they routinely flew the Israeli flag at their events.

This immunized them against precisely the sort of baseless accusations that Geller is flinging about. It was a brilliant strategy then and it is a brilliant strategy now.

One thing that Auster missed was that Geller accused the EDL's administration of having been infiltrated when all that Robinson admitted to was that there were some anti-semites in the organization.

Short of security level clearance screening, there's no way for any ordinary group to weed out every covert infiltrator. Above all, it certainly does not appear, nor is it likely, that the EDL has or would tolerate an anti-Semite at their administrative level for any longer than it took to physically eject them from the premises.

Hesperado said...

Nick (and I would say this to Lawrence Auster too, if he allowed comments),

The thing about Geller's flip-flop is that she has apparently learned from the master (though she's nowhere as adept as he is), her colleague-and-twin, who has several times in the past managed to profess mutually contradictory positions and sustain that indefinitely. My favorite was a few years back, when he simultaneously tried to imply that he was opposed to Islam, and not opposed to Islam.

At that time, he was still deigning to lower himself to have rather long back-and-forth conversations-cum-arguments-cum-debates with his readers in Jihad Watch comments threads. It was fun watching him do his Amazing Feat of Averring Two Opposite Things at the Same Time -- over and over again, in several different ways. I discussed and analyzed this, with copious quotes and links, on my long retired blog Jihad Watch Watch.

(On that blog, I provided an overview of different topics -- to find this particular one, see particularly "More on Spencer being soft on Islam" to which you'll have to scroll down.)

Hesperado said...

"...when all that Robinson admitted to was that there were some anti-semites in the organization."

There are many antisemites all over the place. In any crowd, probably every 6th person is an antisemite; so it's not surprising that the EDL might have a few.

What's ironic is that antisemites probably outnumber Jews by a million to one. (But of course, Jews, with their supernatural powers, don't need numbers.)

Nick said...

@Hesperado,
had a quick look at your old site. some good stuff there, I like the food analogy re. Islam - you don't keep eating from a box of cornflakes after you find a dead mouse in there!

And yes, I did post on this at Ms. Geller's site: in any organisation - pick one, anywhere you like - you are sadly, going to find at least some raging Jew hating maniacs. Seen them! In the most unlikely places, too.

That's just the way of the world, unfortunately. Hardly a surprise that the EDL, with the potential for all sorts of other, shall we say, 'officlal' organisations doing a bit of hanky-panky to sink Tommy, Guramit, et al, will have some aboard their ship.

That's not the point though. What are they doing about it? And was Ms. Geller's reaction appropriate?

I note also in one of the threads in your old site (Spencer soft on Islam no. 1) that Spencer gives as one of his reasons for not condemning Islam roundly: we shouldn't offend our 'allies' in the CJ movement. Interesting to see him say that then, and to see him hang on to Ms. Geller's skirt hem today, as she strives to throw the EDL under the bus.

Hesperado said...

Nick,

"that Spencer gives as one of his reasons for not condemning Islam roundly: we shouldn't offend our 'allies' in the CJ movement."

Yes, Spencer is chock-full of paradoxes. They wouldn't be such a problem, and certainly wouldn't bubble up with such profusion, were he to stick to doing what he does best: reporting and presenting the problems of Islam. It's when he starts analyzing the problem that he can't help bubbling over with paradoxes; apparently, because they reflect his state of mind about Islam, which is fundamentally incoherent at worst, or at best, treading the exceedingly thin line between sophistry and some kind of Wittgensteinian agnostic mysticism.

1389 said...

If the EDL, or any other organization, holds meetings, rallies, or demonstrations in any public venue, it is physically impossible for them to make sure that nobody who holds anti-Semitic views will show up on the scene.

The only thing that the EDL can do is to publicly repudiate such views and to forbid such unauthorized individuals to speak in the name of the EDL. This they have done, and that is all any of us has the right to expect from them.

I have mirrored this post on 1389 Blog.

Zimri said...

My Turing-word is "medismso". As a fellow resister of Medism, so...

This is I think the second time I have posted here. The first time, I went against the majority. There are those of us who are not supporters of everything this site says, who get beyond that and support the EDL in this cause. Some of us - like L. Auster - didn't want to sign because they were worried about being distractions to the cause. As the link shows, he signed from a distance.

I respect his decision, and I have to admit I worried too. I signed anyway. Thank you for listing my name on this list.

Those of you who think I suck (and there's many to whom I've given reason) are welcome to come to my emailbox or blog and flame me there. Please, not here.

What Pamela Gellar needs to understand is that we are here together.

Hesperado said...

Still missing from the list of signatories: Michelle Malkin, Debbie Schlussel.

Zimri said...

I don't know how much this list would benefit from Schlussel. (From Malkin, yes.)

1389 is on this list, which puts the Blogmocracy in play.

Hesperado said...

IThe ball is in Tommy Robinson's court now. He can settle this matter now, by condemning Spencer and Geller as they condemned him, and exposing their sophistical attempts to deny they condemned him and his organization.

Dymphna said...

Zimri says:

There are those of us who are not supporters of everything this site says

Yeah, including the owners of said blog. *I* sure don't take responsibility for everything tht goes up. Heck, I can't even read it all. And I have my differences with guest posters' opinions at times.

I'd be most concerned if everyone who read GoV agreed with everything we posted. Sheesh.

We'd be reduced to "ary had a little lamb"..except the misogynists would object to Mary, and the whole earth folks whose religion forbids "ownership" of animals have summat to say on that.
----------------

@Hesperado--

I'd never expect Michelle Malkin to come over here and sign on. That's a level of intensity I could skip, no problem. But you're joking, right?
Linking to us is just fine by me, thankyouverymuch.

Don't know Debbie Schlussel very well. I do read her on occasion, but her anger level can be distressing to read. Indeed it can be a wonderment, so I choose those moments carefully.

I don't want to run this thread sideways so would you be willing to go to the newsfeed comment thread and explain why she's so angry? You know far more about the 'net than I could even begin to know; your answer will no doubt be informative. Except not here w/ over a hundred comments.

Thanks.

EscapeVelocity said...

Hesp, I dont think that would be a wise move by Tommy Robinson. Not wise at all. Best to just let it die down of its own irrelevance.

The EDL should just stick to what they are doing, to exclude nutters from the organization leadership...and guid the EDL to widespread support and success.

The EDL can certainly release a presser responding to the kerfluffle in some manner, but very non confrontational and basically just denying the allegations and reiterating EDL support of Israel, and its goals.

Sneering at Pam Gellar is foolish. She probably already regrets the post.

Hesperado said...

Escape Velocity,

I don't see why a tough and valiant man as Tommy Robinson who faces down Muslims and Leftists in the street every day should suddenly be shy of facing down Spencer and Geller and calling them on their egregiously -- nay, outrageously -- unfair stance (made all the worse by their subsequent sophistry trying to deny they did it in the first place).

EscapeVelocity said...

Its not about right and wrong, or honor and dishonor, its about achieving goals.

1389 said...

Zimri,

I am a contributor at Blogmocracy, but not an admin, so I don't have the authority to speak on their behalf. There are several admins, and they would have to agree as a group before signing any letters on behalf of Blogmocracy.

That said, there are numerous commenters and contributors who have their own blogs and can sign letters on their own behalf, if they so choose.

I have submitted a copy of this letter to Blogmocracy, with Stogie's links appended.

Hesperado said...

Escape Velocity,

If it's not about right or wrong or honor, why did Tommy Robinson bother to publish a clarification on Jihad Watch at all about this?

What I am saying is, if he's going to clarify, then do it right and go all the way.

Besides, I'm getting fed up with anti-intellectuals and their snobbery against intellectuals, claiming that the only way to fight Islam is with bull-headed sincerity and reason be damned.

Pshaw.

Juniper in the Desert said...

Armance, how telling your post is. I presume you are anti-tea party and probably many who post here are. It is interesting then, that Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff, who signed the petition above likes to hob-nob with a tea-partier, namely the wonderful Rep. Allen West!

Dymphna said...

The thread is closed.

Unfortunately, comment threads eventually and always skew sideways. Ppl begin looking for Jooooz under the bed, or Nazis hiding in the closet, or Vlaams Belang in the bathroom...whatever.

I'll remove the offender and those whose mistakenly responded.

We stand with Israel. Always have and always will. Those who don't like our position should Afind another place to set up shop.