Tuesday, February 22, 2011

Berlin in a Coma

Cultural Enrichment News

Earlier this month a young man was attacked, beaten, kicked, and robbed by “youths” in a Berlin subway station. He was left in a coma as a result of the attack. A second man might have suffered a similar fate had it not been for the timely intervention of member of the Bandidos motorcycle club — the only bystander who was willing to help the victims. (Readers who are interested in more information may consult these two stories from The Local.)

Politically Incorrect has posted a comprehensive report on the event, including an overview of the socialist political context that enables these excesses of cultural enrichment. Many thanks to JLH for the translation.

Berlin in a Coma — An “Isolated Incident” as Something to Learn From
by Little Bear, PI Berlin

The case of journeyman painter Sebastian H. — kicked into a coma shortly before midnight on February 11, 2011 by four youths in the Berlin Lichtenberg subway station — has given the city no rest since it became known four days ago. Since similar “individual incidents” are clogging up local newscasts almost daily as dry two-line reports, what makes this one different? But first the facts.

Berlin Lichtenberg #1

The hunting down of Sebastian H. and the subsequent excess of violence were recorded by a subway platform camera. The recording shows the thirty-year-old in flight from the four youths until they catch him at the stairs, shove him down and immediately begin kicking the prostrate man. As he rises, dazed, and holds on to a column, one of the perpetrators springs at him full force. Then he robs the motionless figure. In further recordings passers-by on the platform are seen, who apparently neither help nor call the police. The police receive a total of one emergency call.

The second victim, after at first successfully fleeing, is found again by the perpetrators in front of the station and also kicked into submission. When a passer-by, according to police reports, intervened and said a “few choice words,” the youths abandoned their victim and ran away. According to other passers-by, it was a member of the “Bandidos” motorcycle gang.

Recognition thanks to “violence prevention”

In the subway videos a police officer recognized a dark-skinned student from a class he had given years ago in the prevention of violence. So all four perpetrators could be caught quickly. They were exclusively from immigrant families (from Kenya, Albania, Kosovo and Iraq). At their initial interrogation, they claimed that the painter and his colleague had provoked them with “Sieg Heil” shouts. The police evaluated this as an agreed-upon tactic, and it was soon withdrawn by the accused. According to the police, the intention of the attack from the beginning was to injure someone badly and then rob them

The sister of Sebastian H. — after he had been put into an artificial coma — wrote to the perpetrators on her Facebook page: “I hate you endlessly… I am a nurse and have seen many awful things, but the sight of my own brother was the worst and most horrifying thing I have ever experienced or seen.”

The first and most important reason for the continuing media interest and the palpable public empathy could be that the attack was coincidentally documented by video camera and then spread to the internet. A second reason is that it affected two craftsmen on the way home from a quitting-time beer. Parts of the populace which usually are reached by nothing else and only concentrate on their daily struggle to survive, also pricked up their ears. The Springer tabloids gave it corresponding coverage.

Remarkable Conclusions

And all at once, justice implies that it could make use of the framework of the existing laws, if it was just willing. Suddenly, all four of the perpetrators, even the 14 year-old are held in investigative custody, which was usually eschewed because a steady domicile was present and there was “no danger of flight.” And the charge — we hear and are astounded — is “attempted murder in the course of robbery — two incidents” (instead of “grievous bodily harm”).

That is one of many conclusions that can be drawn from this case and make it symptomatic for the condition of our society:

1.If public pressure is just great enough, the comfort blanket of coddling justice can briefly transform into the snarling tiger which it would have to be to preserve a just peace.
2.Public pressure in the media occurs only through the circumstances mentioned and is quickly watered down. The DuMont paper, Berliner Zeitung, suggested in a long background article that, if the violence prevention seminars in the schools had not been suspended for a lack of funds, perhaps this attack would not have happened. Other media outlets focused on an NPD demonstration concerning the attack in the notoriously right extremist station district and expressed the concern that such “isolated incidents” could have been “instrumentalized” by right extremists.
3.Nowhere was the important question taken up of whether these “isolated incidents” might have a common background called “Germanophobia.” Instead, out of a no-think gut feeling comes the implication of ““social problems” or “failure of society” in the process of integration.
4.The clumsy and narrow-minded blindness of such statements fits perfectly with the revealed refinement of the four “youths” who by pre-arranged agreement tried to play the Nazi card. That shows that they know very well the sore point of German society. The millions-strong social-pedagogical integration industry and their “protégés” — a Super Team!
5.Since several newspapers hastened to emphasize that these were by no means “repeat offenders” and previously “hardly conspicuous,” the scary question arises — after viewing the videos and the practiced Jump-Kick-Hit “technique” — how often did these perpetrators employ the tools of their trade on other people, without their attacks becoming a matter of record. Never caught, or “dropped because not significant”?
6.A question to Nalka Foroutan, known in radio and tv as the female “anti-Sarrazin”: Are these young people perhaps the prototypes of the “new Germans” she postulated, who will get from the “old Germans” what they deserve in their new “MUDDERLAND” (hybrid European-Muslim model)? In all seriousness, isn’t this the assertion of the envy and hate of those who have been convinced by the left-green politicians, social scientists and Islamic functionaries that they have a right to “participation” in the society, without having to repay it with productivity, respect, gratitude, etc.?
7.Not just Lichtenberg station, but broad sections of Berlin public areas become lawless space in the evenings, where the law of the stronger reigns, and where bands of “youths” of specific religious-cultural background roam around, spreading fear and fright and impeded or monitored by no one (even if only to check for tickets).

Comments to the contrary by transportation authorities (“After all, every station has an emergency button!”) and the Berlin senate are an utter mockery. That is known to everyone who has the misfortune to have to take the subway frequently in the evening hours. That it was of all people a motorcycle gang member who stopped the violence in this present instance, is an especially bitter point. Possibly there should be consideration of deputizing certain motorcycle gangs as police assistants.

Berlin Lichtenberg #2

Vigil by PI Berlin

Members of the PI group Berlin met Saturday noon for a vigil in Lichtenberg station. Numerous candles burned at the spot where the pursuit of Sebastian H. had begun. Again and again people of various skin colors and languages came by to lay flowers or read the spontaneous notes taped to the columns. “Here, the life of a human being was destroyed for no reason and willfully.” “Politicians, wake up and change the youth criminal laws!” “No tolerance for violent criminals, no immigration bonus!” On a laid-out flyer: “Berlin in a Coma — Red-red senate: gone to ground. Justice: failed. Police: kaput from budgetary savings. Berlin transport authority: lays off personnel. Citizens: duck for cover.” There is really no better way to summarize the dominant misery in Berlin. We can hope that the citizens — momentarily jolted — retain their displeasure until the Berlin elections in September and vote out this incompetent senate.

It was important for the Berlin PI group to show solidarity with the victim of this cowardly act at this place, but also to indicate in conversations with passers-by and subway riders that there are specific problems of violence among immigrants, which have little to do with the German majority and much to do with the socialization of the perpetrator in their societies of origin. With most people who spent a few minutes at the vigil, we found open minds. The populace knows full well what “groups of youths” are violent and is also smart enough not to fall in with the xenophobic pied pipers of the NPD.

Oh, on top of that: 13-year-old Kevin, who a short time later on the sidewalk in Reinickendorf encountered a “youth gang known in the neighborhood,” was kicked into a heap because he “looked at them wrong.” “He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time,” his father said with resignation at his son’s sickbed. And in the case of a 39 year-old man who was struck down at the S station in Lichterfelde by two young men from immigrant families, other passengers intervened and prevented anything worse. In both cases, there were no videos.

For a complete listing of previous enrichment news, see The Cultural Enrichment Archives.


Juniper in the Desert said...

When you have the David Camerons of this world accusing people of being racist for accusing mozlems of violence, is it any surprise they get away with murder? He is worse than Blair!


sheik yer'mami said...

Sergio Redegalli asked me to put up a post about his new mural, here:


Unknown said...

Well - the reactions on The Local are not encouraging...Most people cramp up and say that the 'incident' has nothing to do with multiculturalism and then go on to the usual apologetics.
They do not recognize the thugs are doing their bit for the jihad - islam isn't mentioned at all
Our people are benighted..there must be something in the water, for this level of moonbattery is inexplicable otherwise

Nilk said...

Sheik, can you drop me a line pls at rwdbanon@yahoo.com.au?

doxRaven said...

The fact that they wanted attempted to plat the NAZI card should add to the sentence.

"I hate you endlessly… "

I also hate them but even more so the Socialist and the Greens that perpetuate the racists system of multi-culturalism.

trencherbone said...

In Britain these incidents have become so common they're given a name - 'Street Jihad'.

Anonymous said...

So, Germany is now the second Western country where motorcycle gangs are officially the last resort and line of defence for the honest part of the population.

Denmark Hell's Angels

Anonymous said...

Paardestaart, These were most likely not Muslims. Were they doing Islam's bidding too? No, just like the people in this case don't. They just act like third worlders.

Robert, it's quite pathetic when the former dregs of society are the only ones with the proper equipment in between their legs.

Anonymous said...

Rebellious Vanilla :

Note that this British mother of a 12-year old girl assaulted by African children at her school is still at pains to free herself from the prevailing PC thought :

"The boys are refugees brought over from Kenya and Ethiopia. It makes me question if we are providing these children with proper coping skills for a healthy transition."

"Also, is it safe for these students to be held back due to language barriers leaving such a great age difference between students. I can't imagine the rage these boys must be harvesting inside to attack a girl so brutally."

Yeah, it's the rage's fault, obviously. Rage is always legitimate, provided, of course, it's non-western, non-christian, non-white.

Her daughter has been brought up in a Leftist worldview :

"She has always been a well liked girl with lots of friends, and a passion for humanity. She's known for standing up for those who can't stand up for themselves giving them a voice and the courage to stand up for themselves."

Still siding with the attackers. Still believing that leftist baloney is the cure, not the cause of her ills.

It's the society's fault. Just blame Whitey.

Polymath said...

RV, the story about the Berlin beating didn't say the attackers were Muslims, but three of the four were from Albania, Kosovo, and Iraq so I'd bet on it.

When I read the story you linked to at at first thought the "Manchester" was the one in England, where I would expect such uselessness from the schools and police. I was horrified when I reread it and saw it was the Manchester in New Hampshire.

This has not been reported nationally, but the local paper, the Manchester Union Leader, is very non-PC and is covering it well, and the local Fox affiliate is following. The failure of the school administrators, school nurse, and local police to do their jobs is egregious and I predict the family will win more than a million dollars in a lawsuit or settlement. This story will NOT go away because we are nowhere near as far gone as many places in Europe in accepting this kind of violence.

Although the story has not gone away, so far I have not seen national coverage of it. Where did YOU learn about it? I usually have pretty good antennae but missed this story until you linked to it.

If I were this girl's father I would pay a visit to the parents of the scum who attacked my daughter. The purpose of the visit would be to see whether they apologized, so that I could decide whether or not to include them in the list of people I would hire the local Mafia to beat up. And of course my daughter would never return to the school, except to collect the check settling the lawsuit.

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Anonymous said...

Robert, what makes me crack up is how WE must offer them COPING SKILLS! Yes, Ethiopians are our new children. Bottom line is that they shouldn't be in our countries, period.

What shocks me is this: doesn't this girl have a brother? I know that if the two did this to me when I was her age, my brother would have beaten them up to a pulp. The obvious conclusion is deporting both of them and their whole families.

What's interesting is how refugees get to Britain. From what I know, they have to claim asylum in the first state that is safe in which they get. I doubt Britain is the closest state to Ethiopia, to be honest. On the other hand, this girl isn't from the UK. She's from Manchester, NH, which stands for New Hampshire - an American state. The question is still valid though.

Polymath, it was on the news in Romania. Ok, now leaving jokes aside, I have my network of informers who read everything that is on the Internet and let me know what's up. :)

And Europeans don't really put up with it, we just never find out about these things.

You would do the same thing my father would do, but I could arrange my attackers being beaten up myself. I doubt this woman's daughter would know how to do that, considering she's quite the kid of the SWPL mother. I'm disappointed by how pathetic people who are against asylum are. I'd make this story the flag I'd wave in the face of people who want refugees and tell them they're at fault for what happened. But again, the left is great at PR. For instance, if you were against school integration in America, you should have agitated for doing away with it each time an incident happened and blame it on the left. Making your enemies seem evil = winning.

Still, both this story and the Berlin case make quite a good point: knowing people in biker gangs does one good. If anything, for revenge. :)

Cyrus said...

Polymath, it is likely that the one from Kenya is muslim as well. They have a fair sized Somali population in the NE.

Anonymous said...

Cyrus, only 10% of Kenya is Muslim. I'd say that likely is a longshot.

Polymath said...

RV, the one from Kenya is probably one of the Muslim ones since he was hanging out with an Iraqi, an Albanian, and a Kosovan. They probably met at a mosque. And I was serious about the news source, I'd like to know what website or news feed covered that NH story.

As for asylum, I am worried about the Coptic Christians in Egypt. There are millions of them, and we can't bring them all here, but technically they would qualify for asylum if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over and starts a genocide against them. Unfortunately I don't think they are geographically concentrated, if they were dominant in some region of Egypt they would have a chance to defend themselves. The current governments in Europe and America are so wimpy that instead of using military force to defend Christians in Egypt they will probably allow a genocide if the Egyptian Islamists take over.

Anonymous said...

Polymath, I thought you're referring to the two refugees in my story. :)

And I hardly see why we should bring the Copts into Europe. They're not European. Europe doesn't exist to defend the third world. I wouldn't mind if we invaded Egypt and gave the Copts superior status though if we seized the Suez for ourselves. :)

Anonymous said...

I had not realised the girl was assaulted in an American school.

It's sad to say that, assuming it was in Great Britain, I had thought it, well, unsurprising.

But in the United States ?... And the school principal laughing over the incident ?...

Polymath said...

There was some confusion because when Cyrus referred to "the one from Kenya" probably being Muslim I thought he meant one of the four Berlin thugs, since I had cited the nationalities of his 3 pals as evidence of probable Muslimness (is that a word?). He probably misinterpreted me because he also mentioned "NE " which refers to your story, so since you were replying to him you were right to say that one probably wasn't Muslim. Obviously the problem in the NH school is racial more than religious.

I wouldn't want Copts in Europe or America, I was just making the point that with the current asylum laws they would have to be allowed to stay if they managed to get in because they would be fleeing religiously motivated genocide. What should happen instead is they should be defended as fellow Christians IN EGYPT, by sending them weapons and so on and threatening the Egyptian government for persecuting them. That would be like what we did in Kosovo, except more justifiable because the Serbs were putting down a rebellion and the Kosovans were aggressive, while the Copts are not hurting anyone (and of course also more justifiable because Christians are always to be supported against Muslims).

Anonymous said...

Time to deport them after a lengthy prison sentence, and also deport any family they have in Germany, or anywhere else in the West.

Armance said...

But in the United States ?... And the school principal laughing over the incident ?...

Actually, America is a little bit worse than Europe (which says a lot) in terms of silencing horrific stories of inter-racial crimes, especially Black-on-white crime. Ever heard of Channon Christian-Cristopher Newsome? Or Ann Presly? These murders were so horrific that even the PC brainwashed European MSM wouldn't have been able to supress them, like the American media did. That's why you can see a lot of Americans, even the supposedly un-PC ones who post on GoV, in denial about the true dimension of the inter-racial crimes whose victims are white. It's a sort of unconscious self-censorship about touching a subject which undermines the myth of America as a successful melting pot or the belief that only Islam is an existential threat to the West, not immigration and the impossible integration of different racial and ethnic groups in general.

Baron Bodissey said...

Armance --

You're quite right. But you won't see any "self-censorship" about it in our family. Two family members have been been attacked in nice, safe, liberal Charlottesville -- one by Mexicans, one by blacks (with clear race-based motives). Dymphna has blogged about the incidents several times.

The female family member was lucky to escape being raped.

Zenster said...

At their initial interrogation, they claimed that the painter and his colleague had provoked them with “Sieg Heil” shouts.

Given that the suspects are most likely Muslim, one would think that anyone else addressing them with a Hitler salute would be regarded as a brother-in-arms for Islam's much-dreamed-of genocide against the Jews.

How much longer is this farce going to be permitted where Germans ignore the importation of wannabe Nazis into their midst?

The DuMont paper, Berliner Zeitung, suggested in a long background article that, if the violence prevention seminars in the schools had not been suspended for a lack of funds, perhaps this attack would not have happened.

I'll tell you what, if payment of funds in the form of social benefits had "been suspended" to immigrant families whose children rampage like wild animals, this garbage would screech to a grinding halt damn fast.

Hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook!

The German people should get down on their knees and thank Thilo Sarrazin for finally airing their Muslim laundry for all to see.

Call it "street jihad" or just wanting "to injure someone badly and then rob them", it matters not. Violent criminal behavior needs to be crushed from the outset and not be plastered with the usual Socialist band-aids.

Socialism relies almost wholly upon indoctrination in order to spread and succeed. In a takeoff on the old maxim of "when your only tool is a hammer, all problems begin to look like nails":

When you are a Socialist and your only tool is indoctrination, pretty soon all problems begin to look like cases of insufficient indoctrination.

Trying to indoctrinate Muslims is like carrying coals to Newcastle. You cannot indoctrinate those who are already so thoroughly indoctrinated that they may as well be robots.

Zenster said...

Polymath, the case of Coptic Christians in Egypt is a sad one to be sure. However, it may well be important to leave them in place so that Islam can derive an object lesson from the usual Muslim intolerance.

A Muslim Brotherhood takeover will, quite possibly, result in epidemics of cholera, diptheria and, maybe, even the black plague.

We already saw a precursor of this during the swine flu scare. Egyptian Copts are relegated to the most menial tasks among which is garbage collection. Being Copts, pork is not forbidden, so they keep pigs in order to dispose of the discarded food stuffs and benefit thereby with a food source for themselves.

As part of their usual vindictive idiocy, Egyptian Muslims used the swine flu scare as an excuse to kill off all of the Copt's pigs. This typical punishing of the dhimmi population resulted in mountains of garbage accumulating in the major cities of Cairo and Alexandria.

Should some serious pogroms against Egyptian Copts take place, look for the predictable trash acuumulations to be a vector for water contamination and vermin. Both of which point towards the possibility of some serious epidemics.

Plagues in Egypt?

Some people NEVER learn. Muslims especially.

It couldn't happen to some nicer people.

Hesperado said...

RV writes:

"I hardly see why we should bring the Copts into Europe. They're not European."

Copts were part of the European family in a broader sense for a good half millennium, since the Middle East and North Africa had, pace Pax Romana (inherited by the subsequent nascent Christian Roman Empire: how many Graeco-Roman philosophers, many later Christianized, were, like Albert Camus 1300 years later, cultural indigents of L'Afrique Blanche...?), become part of a trans-Mediterranean West -- until, that is, the Muslim hordes stormed across massacring, conquering and occupying the peoples of all those lands.

Anonymous said...

Being part of the Roman empire and being European are two different things. I suppose that Kenyans should all get to go to the UK because you know, they were part of the British Empire.

Hesperado said...

Armance wrote:

"That's why you can see a lot of Americans, even the supposedly un-PC ones who post on GoV, in denial about the true dimension of the inter-racial crimes whose victims are white."

I wonder if he thinks I am one of those "un-PC ones who post on GoV, in denial..."

Just because I don't mention it much, doesn't mean I don't appreciate the gravity of that issue. I'm largely in agreement with Lawrence Auster on it, with two important caveats:

1) his language of a "Black Intifada" and similar formulations tends to foster a misplaced exaggeration of certain qualities of the threat -- namely, for example, that it is a concerted paramilitary supremacism along the lines of Islamic jihad. This is to muddy important differences between the two. While there is a lot of hate and violence on the part of blacks against whites, it remains, thankfully, amorphous and disorganized institutionally and culturally.

2) Unlike Muslims, many blacks do evince a sufficient degree of humanity and genuine amicability. There is little evidence (other than anecdotal) that blacks might be dissimulating for grand paramilitary reasons, as we are reasonable in supposing any given Muslim we encounter no matter how friendly he or she seems.

Hesperado said...

RV wrote, in response to my post above:

"Being part of the Roman empire and being European are two different things."

This response demonstrates a failure to assimilate the entirety of my comment -- where, specifically, I added "...inherited by the subsequent nascent Christian Roman Empire..."

The Roman Empire was the chrysalis of the West -- particularly during that half millennium that began its Christianization, before the Muslims invaded and ruined its trans-Mediterranean parts.

Anonymous said...

Hesperado, many Muslims also "evince a sufficient degree of humanity and genuine amicability". Since blacks have higher criminality rates, you actually have a better chance with a Muslim than a black. The fact that Islam asks Muslims to kill us doesn't really aid your line of thinking considering that they kill less of us than blacks on a per capita basis.

And it's not institutionalized culturally? Geez, I suppose you never heard of the NAACP or other organizations like that, which are pretty much their version of CAIR.

I'd also like to point out that Larry Auster isn't really a person many consider credible. After all, the purpose of existence for the US in his view is to aid Israel and America actually looking out for its own interests would be anti-Semitic. Someone with this kind of logic is fairly fruity.

And yes, you are one of those people Armance refers to. Because while your view is accurate on Islam, you somehow can't see the big picture on what she was referring to.

About your comment in regard to the Roman Empire. First of all, your comment made no sense in relation to what I said - that they're not European. You said that they were European because they were part of the Christianizing Roman empire(I suppose the Germanic tribes aren't European then, since well, they weren't Christianizing then) and I gave you an example of the same thing - Kenya under British rule. Kind of smells like special pleading.

Hesperado said...


Hesperado, many Muslims also "evince a sufficient degree of humanity and genuine amicability".

That comment of yours would be the second time in this thread you fail to mention my other points without which you are not responding to my full argument. I'm not going to repeat myself in that specific regard.

Similarly, there is a lack of comprehension of the full points in my argument shown by this response of yours:

And it's not institutionalized culturally? Geez, I suppose...etc.

-- where I didn't say that it was not institutionalized; I said that its institutional and cultural dimension among blacks remains amorphous and disorganized.

... you never heard of the NAACP or other organizations like that, which are pretty much their version of CAIR.

While on certain levels this is arguable, we have no memo from any upper-echelon NAACP leadership member stating -- in accord with mountains of other evidence of black madrassas and other institutional organizations around the world massively grounded in the holy texts of the Black Religion that goes back 1400 years and has conquered whole nations and massacred over 250 million people during that time -- that the mission of the NAACP is "a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions" -- as indeed Mohamed Akram wrote in 1991, with easily traceable and significant ties to CAIR, the MSA (Muslim Students Association), the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) and a bewildering jungle of other alphabet-soup Islamic organizations that dwarf what blacks have been able to organize.

[continued next]

Hesperado said...

On the Roman Empire and the West:

...your comment made no sense in relation to what I said - that they're not European. You said that they were European because they were part of the Christianizing Roman empire(I suppose the Germanic tribes aren't European then, since well, they weren't Christianizing then) and I gave you an example of the same thing - Kenya under British rule. Kind of smells like special pleading.

A better example than Kenya -- and one I alluded to already in my original comment on this -- is French Algeria, which was in many ways a replay of what the Graeco-Roman civilization did in North Africa and the Middle East: they colonized it not merely in the sense of trying to construct and sire a civilizational offspring whose human material would be mostly composed of the native population, but more importantly by becoming the cultural and political masters of the region. In the 150-odd years the French controlled Algeria, in many ways (though limited to only certain areas, mostly urban) they created a second France with enlightened Western mores, culture and laws. It wasn't merely Algeria that benefited from Western Colonialism more or less in this way -- Egypt also was Frankified as well as Anglicized to a great extent; Libya was Italianized; Lebanon became a cosmopolitan center of the region, again under French influence; and so forth. It was not for nothing that the French referred to the Maghreb during that period of Western geopolitical superiority and influence as "White Africa" (L'Afrique Blanche).

This eventually unravelled in Algeria because the majority of the populace, being Muslims, were never civilized and became the active fodder to renew a Jihad against the Infidel which had been, by force, put on hold for that window of time (and generally speaking as the West voluntarily dismantled its own Colonialism, the various Muslim spheres in the region began their slow road to regain various means to flex and renew their traditional Islamic political strength, even if fitfully and riddled with corruption and internecine violence which is par for the course for diseased Islam at all times).

The situation for such a type of colonialism from the top down, so to speak, was even more propitious in the half millennium before Mohammed was born, since North Africa and the Middle East had the advantage of being Muslim-free. And so those areas really in many ways became an extension of Rome, and their native populations, lacking the kind of organized and military fanaticism Muslims had (with the temporary and imperfect exception of Carthage), were more easily subdued and marginalized for the purpose of a Roman dominance politically and culturally.

As for the Germanic tribes, they eventually were conquered by the Graceo-Roman Christianity they initially attacked, and became full-fledged Westerners -- demonstrating a capacity Muslims lack in this regard. Indeed, that process of civilization was so relatively fast and substantive, they in their Christianized form were able to organize a coalition to protect all of Europe from being conquered by Muslims by holding them off in northern Spain in the 8th century (and in several more battles in the centuries after that, for the Muslims kept trying to pierce through the Western flank of Europe for centuries, until finally beaten back by the Reconquista in the 15th century; even if they were spectacularly successful on the Eastern flank in their conquest of Constantinople in the same century).

Anonymous said...

Hesperado, debating you is pretty useless. I'd like to assume that you are right. The conclusion is that Muslims are horrid at killing us because on a per capita basis, they kill less of us, despite all of this brilliant organizational abilities that they have.

I'd also like to point out that how many people you kill in war is different. By that logic, the US is probably worse than Islam. I'm too lazy to really count how many people were killed by Americans since the revolutionary war, especially if you break it down on a per year basis. So stop comparing apples to oranges.

And N Africans reverted back because you can force your culture on others, but once you remove the coercive threat, they go back to how they were. Black Americans are a great example. Or people anywhere in the world for that matter.

Zenster said...

rebelliousvanilla: So stop comparing apples to oranges.

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.