Wednesday, June 09, 2010

Oklahoma Says No To Sharia Law

Now that the Baron is gone, there won’t be a lot of posting.

It’s not just the time and energy it takes, though those are certainly factors in play. However, the heart of the matter has become the news itself; many stories are so dreadfully awful that it wears on the soul. I have begun many posts only to give up before they’re done. The deep malignity of Islam’s incursions into Western culture have begun to take their toll. The grip this culture of death has on our media and our government is deeply saddening.

I admire people who have the fortitude to continue in the face of this magnitude of malevolence. One person who comes to mind is Jim at Gateway Pundit. He does amazing work.

Another is Zombie, whose site is in a class by itself. Here’s a link to just one page of the Mohammed images available there. And that doesn’t even cover the photos for which Zombie is so justly famous.

Perhaps the key here is that both these bloggers have a redemptive tone, as does the one mentioned below in the “good news about Oklahoma” story. It may be that their own world view precludes the belief that evil could triumph.

It’s difficult to pinpoint when that belief began to be elusive. For a long time it seemed to be a simple case of avoidance. In retrospect, it’s clear that my usual optimism was beginning to erode.

If good health hadn’t become a dim memory, could I have continued to maintain my equilibrium while writing about the calamities that face us? That’s a hard call. The wall between me and the bad news seems to have become permeable, though. Does that occur with other bloggers, too? Some of them have become strident and shrill. Is that the price they must pay to endure?

By the way, this is a phenomenon that affects our readers on occasion; they email to say that it is discouraging to visit our pages sometimes.

In any event, while the Baron is away, I will do my best to post about the current situation. Lord knows I have a long list of things I’d like to tell you about; it’s a matter of stamina and well being at this point.

However, this piece of good news showed up last night, thanks to Heroyalwhyness. It is heartening to be told something positive about the direction our country is taking.

This is not the only piece of good news today, but it’s an important beginning.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

Good for Oklahoma. With only thirty thousand or so Muslims in a population of well over three million people, the Sooner State is gearing up early to fight the incursion of Sharia law within its boundaries.

The Oklahoma legislature has passed a joint resolution to have placed on the November ballot a question regarding foreign laws within its jurisdiction.

This is not a law passed by the legislature; it is a question posed to the residents of Oklahoma to amend the state constitution.

Here’s the legalese for this move, passed on May 25th:
- - - - - - - - -



Directs the Secretary of State to refer to the people for their approval or rejection a proposed amendment to Section 1 of Article VII of the Constitution of the State of Oklahoma; creating the Save our State Amendment…

B. Subsection C of this section shall be known as the “Save Our State Amendment”

C. The Courts provided for in subsection A of this section, when exercising their judicial authority, shall uphold and adhere to the law as provided in the United States Constitution, the Oklahoma Constitution, the United States Code, federal regulations promulgated pursuant thereto, established common law, the Oklahoma Statutes and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, and if necessary the law of another state of the United States provided the law of the other state does not include Sharia Law, in making judicial decisions. The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider international law or Sharia Law. The provisions of this subsection shall apply to all cases before the respective courts including, but not limited to, cases of first impression.

Various Oklahoma media outlets have noted this move by the legislature, but the most commonly referenced report is from The Edmond Sun. Obviously, they have some local interest here:

State Rep. Lewis Moore, R-Edmond, a co-author of HJR 1056, said he wanted to express his support very early for the legislation, which is needed because of the “onslaught” coming Oklahoma’s way.

“I don’t think we should accept or encourage Sharia law in any way, shape or form,” Moore said.

State Rep. Rex Duncan, R-Sand Springs, primary author of HJR 1056, said Oklahoma is the first state to pass such legislation and he hopes other states will follow.

Duncan, an attorney who chairs the House Judiciary Committee, said the amendment is needed because judges in other states and on the federal bench have increasingly cited international law in their decisions. He said he feels that action is inappropriate in a sovereign state.

This is indeed heartening. A strong stand on sovereignty, the sentiment for which seems to grow by the day, pace Arizona and Texas. However, for Oklahoma the example is the UK:

Duncan said Sharia law is entrenched in the United Kingdom.

“It is a cancer upon the survivability of the UK,” Duncan said. “SQ 755 will constitute a pre-emptive strike against Sharia law coming to Oklahoma.”

Needless to say, the disloyal opposition is going to be out in full force, fighting this all the way to November:

Saad Mohammed, director of Islamic information for the Islamic Society of Greater Oklahoma City, said 80 percent of the U.S. Constitution is compatible with Sharia, which leads to justice and equality for all. Mohammed said extremists have distorted Sharia.

“Sharia is more of a protection than something used to oppress,” Mohammed said.

Razi Hashmi, of Edmond, executive director of CAIR-Oklahoma, said the Sharia law proposal is a distraction from more urgent issues facing the state such as the economy, job creation and immigration.

Uh huh. Sure it is. By the way, since they brought it up, what are the opinions of these Islamist worthies regarding immigration?

Logan’s Warning has a post up about the referendum. A commenter, ChrisLA, left a link to a comparison between Sharia Law and the Constitution. It’s not a complete fisking by any means, but it sure goes a long way toward explaining the Oklahoma legislature’s all-too-rational fear.

Louis Palme, the author of this comparison, prefaces his assessment this way:

Americans are among the most tolerant and patriotic people in the world. As a nation of immigrants, there is a certain appeal to the idea of multiculturalism where people of different backgrounds are accepted in our communities. Our nation was founded on the principles of equality and freedom, and we have invested our resources and blood over and over again to defend those principles. Our constitution guarantees not only the freedom of speech, but also the freedom to practice our religion of choice. So it is not surprising that many Americans see Sharia Law as a Muslim religious prerogative which we should support or at least tolerate.


So to better understand whether Sharia Law is desirable (or even legal) in the United States, it might be instructive to compare it with the US Constitution. This isn’t too difficult for the layman because the US Constitution is only 17 pages long, including its 27 amendments. Sharia Law is well-documented in the 1,200 page Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, “The Reliance of the Traveler” by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri…

The Baron acquired his copy of The Reliance of the Traveler quite some time ago. If you can afford to invest in this manual, you won’t regret doing so. The link is to Amazon rather than to an Islamic bookstore.

A compelling comment left on the Amazon page by an infidel who explains why this book is important to read:

I give this product one star because I deeply disagree with its content, but urge non-Muslims to become familiar with it.

This book contains the legal rulings of the Shafii school of Islamic law. It contains a legal description of mainstream Islam, a codification of the culture of the Islamic Middle East.

It makes clear to me that there is an unbridgeable gap between the legal and cultural standards of Islam and America. That means that the more Islamic America becomes, the less American it is.

It shows me why a person can be a pious Muslim or a patriotic American but not both. A person who follows the interpretation of the Koran found in this book cannot share American attitudes toward women, sexual preferences, secular government, equality of opportunity for all regardless of religious belief, military defense of America against Muslim enemies and, above all, freedom of speech.

In short, Islamic law as described here does not pass Constitutional scrutiny…

Once you begin to slog through the thousand-plus pages of Reliance you’ll agree with that reviewer’s sad conclusion.

Here are Mr. Palme’s comparisons between parts of our Constitution and Sharia Law:

Legislative Powers

US Constitution

Article I - All legislative Powers shall be vested in the Congress.

Sharia Law

The source of legal rulings for all acts of those who are morally responsible is Allah. (a1.1) It is not a sin to comply with man-made laws that require buying auto insurance or having a photo ID because “the authorities are responsible for the sin, not the individual forced to comply.” (w42.3 and w50.4)

Power to Declare War

US Constitution

Section 8 - Powers of Congress include to levy taxes, to make laws, and to declare war.

Sharia Law

It is obligatory to obey the commands and interdictions of the caliph or his representative in everything that is lawful, even if he is unjust…because the purpose of his authority is Islamic unity, which could not be realized if obeying him were not obligatory. (o25.5) The caliph or his representative have the duty of undertaking jihad if their territory borders on enemy lands, of dividing the spoils of battle, and of remitting a fifth for “deserving recipients.” (o25.9(8))

Jihad is obligatory for everyone when the enemy has surrounded the Muslims. (o9.3) It is permissible in jihad to cut down the enemy’s trees and destroy their dwellings. (o9.1)

President (Caliph)

US Constitution

Article II, Section I -- Qualifications of a President - He must be a natural born citizen, thirty-five years old, and a resident for fourteen years. The President is elected by ballot by the people (via the Electors) and shall serve for no more than 2 four-year terms.

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Sharia Law

A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave, a male, of the Quraysh tribe, etc. (o25.0)

The Caliph appoints a group to select his successor among themselves. There is no a term of office. However, the caliphate of someone who seizes power is considered valid, even though his act of usurpation is disobedience, in view of the danger from anarchy and strife that would otherwise ensue. (o25.4(3))

(Note: The Islamic Caliphate was disbanded the Turkish Parliament in 1924.)

Removal of Government Officers

US Constitution

Section 4 - The President and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from office if found guilty of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

Sharia Law

(No provision for removal from office.)

Legal Authority

US Constitution

Article VI - This Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made under it shall be the supreme law of the land, and judges in every state shall be bound by them.

Senators and Representatives, legislative officers, all executive and judicial officers both of the United States and the several states shall be bound by a Oath or Affirmation to support the Constitution.

Sharia Law

The source of legal rulings for all acts of those who are morally responsible is Allah. (a1.1)

Civil and Religious Rights


US Constitution

Amendment 1 - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances.

Sharia Law

Non-Muslims are obliged to comply with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and indemnity of life, reputation, and property. Non-Muslims are forbidden to openly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures, or make a public display of feast days or funerals. Non-Muslims are forbidden to build new churches. A non-Muslim may not enter a mosque without permission. The protection for non-Muslims is withdrawn if a non-Muslim commits adultery with a Muslim woman or marries her, leads a Muslim away from Islam, kills a Muslim, or says anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam. (o11.5 through o11.10)

Guns and Weapons:

US Constitution

Amendment 2 - The right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Sharia Law

It is a condition that someone buying weapons be of a people who are not at war with Muslims. (k1.2(f))

Enormities (sins) include selling weapons to non-Muslims who will use them against us. (w52.1(192))

Use of Private Property by the Government:

US Constitution

Amendment 3 - No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner prescribed by law.

Sharia Law

(Not covered.) However, the Pact of Omar (636 AD) imposed on Christians in Syria, “We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.”

Rule of Law and Equality Under the Law

US Constitution

Amendments 4 - 8 - These amendments prohibit unreasonable searches, require due process according to the law, provide for confrontation of witnesses, impose jury trial on all matters involving over $20, and prohibit excessive fines and cruel and unusual punishments. Amendment 14 provides for equal protection of the laws for all citizens.

Sharia Law

No testimony may be made by people who have lowly jobs, such as a street sweeper or a bath house attendant, or non-Muslim. (o24.2-3)

Testimony regarding fornication or sodomy requires four male eye-witnesses to the act. (o24.9)

A woman’s testimony is worth only half that of a man. (o24.10)

(There is no provision for a jury trial under Sharia Law.)

Islamic punishments include 1) stoning for adultery (o12.2); 2) scourging 40 lashes with hands, shoes, ends of clothes, or a whip for drunkenness (o16.3); 3) severing the right hand for theft of over $36 and the left foot for a repeat offense (o14.1); and 4) death for apostasy from Islam. (o8.2)

Indemnity for accidentally killing a male Muslim is 100 camels or 4,235 grams of gold. (Current value: $144,000.) Indemnity for killing a woman is half that of a man, for killing a Jew or a Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim. The indemnity paid for a killing Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that of a Muslim. The indemnity for causing a miscarriage is one slave. (o4.9)

There is no indemnity for a killing a non-Muslim at war with Muslims, an apostate, or someone sentenced to death by stoning. (o14.17)

Jews and Christians are subject to a “poll tax” not less than 1 dinar (Current value: $144) per adult male per year. No maximum is stipulated. (o11.4) This is a penalty for remaining in their ancestral religion instead of embracing the “religion of truth.” (o9.8)

A husband may beat a “rebellious” wife for 1) not allowing immediate sexual intercourse when he asks for it, at home, and if she can physically endure it; 2) answering him coldly; or 3) being averse when she was previously kind. (m5.1 and m10.12) The only limitation is that he may not break her bones, wound her, or cause bleeding.


US Constitution

Amendment 13 Slavery and involuntary servitude are abolished.

Sharia Law

The section on Slavery (k32.0) is not translated into English. The provisions remain in Arabic. The editor of “The Reliance of the Traveler” claims that these provisions are no longer applicable, yet they remain in the text of Sharia Law. Elsewhere, the manual states, “Originally the status of slave was simply the outcome of having been taken as a prisoner of war. A captive who could not buy his own freedom by means of ransom remained in the possession of the captor until he had earned his freedom by work or until he was granted liberty by his master.” (w13.1)

Use of Alcohol:

US Constitution

Amendment 21 repealed “prohibition,” thereby allowing manufacture, sale, and transport of alcoholic beverages.

Sharia Law

It is unlawful to sell grapes to someone who will make wine from them. (k4.9) “Allah cursed whoever drinks wine, gives it to others to drink, sells it, buys it, presses it for another, transports it, receives it, or eats its price.”

Enormities (sins) include drinking wine in any form or other intoxicant, even if only a drop as in medicine; pressing out the juice to make wine or other intoxicant; carrying it for purposes of drinking, or having it carried; serving it to others or having it served; selling it; buying it; having it bought or sold; consuming proceeds from selling it; or keeping wine or other intoxicant. (o16.6 and w52.1(350-361))

This excerpt would be an excellent educational tool for Oklahoma legislators. They could have it printed on one page and sent out to its citizens. It needs wide dissemination so that voters can make an informed choice come November.

Incidentally, the Oklahoma newspaper reported that one of its legislators thought they were the first state to make a stand against Sharia, but that’s not the case. Logan’s Warning had a post up about Louisiana’s experience back in May. Here is his preface to the NOLA editorial on the passage of state legislation to protect their judicial sovereignty against Sharia:

Some of the main points of my plan against Islam, are to become energy independent, end Muslim immigration, and officially ban Sharia Law. Thankfully the state of Louisiana has done their part, with Sharia Law. To preserve Western Civilization, we are going to have to vote in more politicians that are willing to fight Islam head on. The Netherland’s Geert Wilders would be one, and Vijay Kumar of Tennessee, would be another. We are finally heading in the right direction, keep on speaking out!

[Go to his page to see the full editorial and to access the links in his preface. Based on that editorial he posted, many states are watching other states carefully to see how they are handling the incursions of islam into the American judicial system.]

By the way, NOLA is a good place to go for news on the oil spill. As with most events, the closer you get to local coverage the more detailed the information.

Meanwhile, I hope the Sooners rally ‘round the flag on this one in November.


jcc said...

Huray for Oklahoma!

Zenster said...

Saad Mohammed, director of Islamic information for the Islamic Society of Greater Oklahoma City, said 80 percent of the U.S. Constitution is compatible with Sharia, which leads to justice and equality for all. [emphasis added]

The DNA of humans and chimpanzees is over 90% identical, but that doesn't mean they can interbreed.

What total rubbish! As if there aren't a few complete and total deal-breakers lurking in sharia law that are so unconstitutional as to render them the equivalent of automatic felonies.

Mohammed said extremists have distorted Sharia.

Here we go again with the same old "extremists" garbage. Extremists have done this! Extremists have done that! Woe is Islam! Woe is the ummah! Boo hoo fricking hoo!!!!!!!

Okay, so where are all these extremists who are distorting and perverting Islam's name.

Why aren't they being torn limb from limb by angry Muslim mobs?

Why are they always so difficult to find? That is, unless there are imminent airstrikes looming and then suddenly, PRESTO!, here's some jihadists that just happened to wander into our hot little hands!

Where is the deluge of death fatwan spewing forth from the usual infinitude of outraged imams everywhere to assure prompt execution of these blasphemers? Those Motoons sure brought them out of the woodwork but a few thousand dead infidels isn't enough to do the trick?

Where are the riots in the streets after each terrorist atrocity whenever another jihadist besmirches the oh-so sacred name of Islam?

Tell you what, Mr. Saad Mohammed, I've got your "distorted sharia" right here.

Anonymous said...

Dymphna states: "Obviously, they have some local interest here"

Yes indeed . . .quite a bit!

Checking Wiki . . .Edmond Oklahoma (EdmondSun), is just North of Oklahoma City which is north of Norman, Oklahoma. . .all three of these cities are located in the heart of Oklahoma and each were victimized by major jihad related events.

In December 1992, Steven Emerson was a correspondent with CNN and on assignment in Oklahoma City to do some interviews on another subject entirely. On Christmas Day he found himself with nothing to do. While looking for a fast-food restaurant, he passed a convention center where he saw thousands of Muslims dressed in traditional garb congregating in the streets and entering the center. At first, his ignorance led him to think they might be extras on a movie set. When he went inside, he discovered what was really going on. Radical groups were openly declaring themselves to be Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbullah, and even Gama'a Islamiya (Omar Abdel Rahman's group in Egypt). They made absolutely no effort to hide their identity or their agendas. He was even more shocked to discover the FBI did not know this conference was taking place. (link)

July 2-3, 2000: 9/11 hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi visited the "Airman Flight School" in Norman, Oklahoma. This is the same flight school later attended by the 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui.
In August 2001, Atta and Alshehhi will allegedly be witnessed at an Oklahoma City hotel together with Zacarias Moussaoui.

Jayna Davis identifies Hussein-al-Husseini, an Iraqi soldier in Saddam Hussein's Army as "The Third Terrorist" in the April 19, 1995 Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Building . Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh were prosecuted as the only perpetrators.

2005 University of Oklahoma bombing Joel Henry Hinrichs III and his roommate Cheema attended the same mosque in Norman, Oklahoma as Zacarias Moussaoui The Islamic Society of Norman, which also serves as the office of the University of Oklahoma chapter of the Muslim Students Association,which is only three blocks away from Hinrichs' apartment, at 420 E. Lindsey.

More good news:
April 26th, 2010 Louisiana repudiated both Islamic and British law

Anonymous said...

Zenster, I think that over half of our DNA just expresses that we're carbon based life forms. lol.

Anyway, Sharia is irrelevant. It's funny the part with the Caliph. Like the US president is a caliph or something.

Anonymous said...

... the heart of the matter has become the news itself; many stories are so dreadfully awful that it wears on the soul.
Very true

I have begun many posts only to give up before they’re done.And that's writing them. I've had to give up just reading them quite often.

The deep malignity of Islam’s incursions into Western culture have begun to take their toll.
The wall between me and the bad news seems to have become permeable, though. Does that occur with other bloggers, too? Some of them have become strident and shrill.
So it would seem. So one can't criticise them for going off pop, e.g DS against PG, PG (and, more quietly, RS) against GoV and VTB, AB against RS, on ocassion. GoV has managed to avoid that and taking a sabbatical, or something more permanent might be necessary as the evil behind Islam is very clever at sowing discord amongst those in stress.

Jedilson Bonfim said...

The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider international law or Sharia Law.

After the ban on minarets in Switzerland came under threat from the European court of inhuman rights, the SVP mentioned that they wanted to hold a referendum that would enshrine the voice of Swiss voters as the final arbiters on any matters, so that no quaint international treaties or laws could get in the way of their will. Oklahoma is doing really well by choosing a similar path.

As a side note, once RebelliousVanilla asked me if I was a Swiss citizen and, yes, I am, though a naturalized one. I'm originally from a semi-barbaric country where laws and courts favor crooks and are bent according to the depth of one's pockets; and where hard work and individual efforts are looked down upon, since what counts there is how much advantage one can take of someone else's work... It almost sounds like mahoundians exploiting dhimmis, but I guess such similarities among the members of primitive and inferior cultures should come as no surprise.

I've been lucky enough to see that the values of the place I'm from is something to be despised, instead of something to be proud of, as most of the inhabitants of that place do. As for its problems, the way most of them will explain them away should come as no surprise to anyone: they'll tell you it's all the Americans' fault. They might even throw trash on the ground in someone's face and try to blame the US for the litter scattered all over the place... That also sounds a lot like what mahoundians do, blaming Jews for all of their self-inflicted malaises, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

"However, the heart of the matter has become the news itself; many stories are so dreadfully awful that it wears on the soul."

I'm just waiting for the war - the long-term house-to-house one on Western soil.

Since I know things will get to that point, and I am pretty much convinced there is nothing that can sway enough people fast enough to avert it, and all bets are off once it starts, and laying in supplies and skills and other resources for then is an ongoing project that is already far along, I use the time between now and the as-yet-undetermined critical moment as I like.

Anybody else play Dwarf Fortress?

Dymphna said...

RV-- I fervently wish that sharia law were "irrelevant". But it's not in this country. It is making inroads in many places, particularly in the area of family law. That is merely the beginning, a foot under the tent.

@ wowsher--

Your empathy is much appreciated. And your analysis sounds right to me. I have always been amazed by the Baron's ability to stay the course, to maintain in the face of hostility. He's fortunate to have that temperament. Perhaps it is his utter faith in what he is doing to attempt to change things. If all he has been given is a teaspoon with which to bail the boat, then that's what he'll use until he gets a bucket. Meanwhile, he doesn't complain, he just keeps on moving the water out of the boat.


JB said:

...they'll tell you it's all the Americans' fault. They might even throw trash on the ground in someone's face and try to blame the US for the litter scattered all over the place...

That reminds me of something going on in this country: the Tea Party people know they will be attacked for even the smallest infraction so they're very careful about the public spaces they use. Without anyone suggesting it, they just walk around picking up litter while their event is going on. When they leave, the place is clean.

There were even stories about it after the big national demonstration in Washington, D.C. Normally after a public event, the city workers have a big job of cleaning up where 10,000 people have been standing around for hours(you should see the photos of the place after Obama's inauguration!). But this time, they had nothing to do. The place was cleaner than it had been before those thousands of people arrived.

On Tax Day, we went to one event in a near by town. Somehow, the Baron was handed a trash bag by one of the leaders toward the end of the gathering. He dutifully went around looking for litter but there wasn't any to speak of because people had already been cleaning up on their own (this was a very public place so it started out with litter). I believe he returned the bag with two items in it.

You picked a good illustration there.

Dymphna said...


I don't agree with your apocalyptic vision re how change will occur. That hasn't happened in any country Islam has conquered of late. No door-to-door dramas, just erosion via the courts, the govt educational system, the media, etc.

They don't need to attack us frontally; what they're doing via stealth jihad is much more effective than violent terrorism. Read the Muslim Brotherhood manual to see what I mean. I've seen excerpts on line.

OTOH, with Obama's aggressive drive to ruin our economic infrastructure, it may be the case that we'll need to keep emergency supplies for when the breakage becomes very obvious.

We rec'd a notice from our electric cooperative that despite all the cost-cutting they've done, what with the new mandates for "renewable energy resources" (which mostly don't exist) to be in place by 2012, they face insurmountable cost rises. Our electricity will go up sharply in 2011 and will double by 2012.

Right now, we have the lowest electric costs in the state. Maybe in 2012 our co-operative can continue to make that claim, but our bills will still be double what they are now. And to that increase, you can add increases for food, petrol, etc.

Obama and the Left and Islam can ruin us in plenty of other ways. They don't need the door-to-door rough stuff you envision.

Anonymous said...

Dymphna, your energy bills will go up by at last $1000 an year, right? I said that since the crap and steal bill passed.

Anyway, I'd like to explain to you what i meant, but I can't, since I don't recall. lol

Anonymous said...

"Obama and the Left and Islam can ruin us in plenty of other ways. "

Oh that's a given. Like I said, I don't think it can be averted at this point. This doesn't mean open conflict won't happen. It is the very strength of the USA (and Europe to a lesser extent) that is keeping the lid on things right now, and enforcing the self-destructiveness. It is only when that strength vanishes that the self-destructiveness will be stoppable. Paradoxical, tragic, whatever.

Mencius Moldbug has gone into this in some detail - well rather excessive detail actually, but it's worth it. He calls it "the Cathedral" - the whole structure of politicians, academics, legal people, lobbyists, and everything else that makes up the modern power structure in our nations. It is all formed by liberalism, founded on liberal attitudes, dependent on liberalism, and promoting liberalism. If one takes power within the Cathedral, one is by that very action accepting certain of its premises and enabling it to work towards certain of its goals. Thus the tendency of Republicans to always drift left, and only ever slow down the incursion of leftism rather than actively reversing it. In order to stop it, you would need to sweep the entire thing away; remove the entire structure of rules that enable and promote the system, most of them rules the system created itself. How one defines "the entire thing" can vary - some would say it's the Federal state as initiated by Lincoln and massively strengthened by FDR, Moldbug himself tends to refer to the Tudors as being a good reboot point. Me, I'm an admirer of Philippe le Bel. Details like that are pretty much irrelevant though because it is inconceivable to the vast majority of people now alive that even the structure of government erected since the election of FDR should be seriously changed or removed - and so any change operating within that context will only continue to work within the Cathedral's rules and systems and allow the Cathedral opportunities to continue advancing toward its goals.

In order to restore sanity through any means short of a total destruction of the Cathedral, one would need the people to nominate, select, and vote for candidates who were systematically and nearly exclusively based on extremely principled positions, where the principles are founded in reality (of the sort that liberalism wishes didn't exist). Seniors would need to vote for terminating Social Security and Medicare. Poor people would need to vote against progressive income taxes. Minorities would need to vote for restricting immigration and ethnic homogeneity laws. And on and on. In short, the people would need to be that which they manifestly are not.

It's as clear a counterfactual as ever you'd want to see.

In the absence of such events, the internal logic of the situation proceeds inexorably to contradiction and self-destruction, which is WHY the Cathedral and liberalism in general are evil - because they don't work, they can't work, as a system for improving human society and human life. A society operating under the complete control of the Cathedral regresses; a society operating under the totality of liberalism collapses. It isn't a question of what anybody wants, least of all the Left. It's an inherent property of the situation. When you drop something, eventually it hits the ground.

So, yes, there will be a war, and that is what I am waiting for. I freely admit it may take longer than my lifetime - Rome after Diocletian's price controls and Constantine's institution of serfhood lasted another century or two in the West, depending on how you measure it. The Soviets were losing ground ever since 1945 (Russia went from a massive exporter of grain to a massive importer, to pick just the most obvious indicator). "There is a lot of ruin in a nation". But that it takes a long time doesn't make the end result any less certain.

Anonymous said...

Actually, there is exactly one area where there has been some rolling back of leftism, and that is in gun ownership and concealed carry. But even touting that as some sort of advance shows how far we have fallen - a hundred years ago, Watson sticking a revolver in his pocket before going out on a case with Sherlock Holmes was considered the most ordinary of sensible precautions. Today it's a coin flip as to whether it'll get you into trouble with the so-called law.

When young women consider pistols to be a required fashion accessory, and the very providing of such doesn't get people hauled into metaphorical piranha tanks, then I'll start getting optimistic about the surrounding society again. Until then, I can only be optimistic for myself.

laine said...


Chronic illness saps not just our physical energy but mental as well and brings with it low grade depression. Family and financial worries add to the burden.

Under these circumstances, some temperaments cannot deal with following politics with present events particularly hard on conservatives. Yet others are animated by duty and possibly by the sense of gallant camaraderie to rise beyond their personal tribulations. Perhaps we are at one of the later stages that Winston Churchill warned about: "Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

There is a nobility in fighting on, each according to his (waning) ability. Meanwhile, take time to succor your spirit with whatever brings serenity - the piercing beauty of nature, divine music (apparently harp music has a particularly salutory effect on blood pressure), time with family and friends...May you and the Baron endure and prosper. You are surely blessed by those who are refreshed by the oasis your site offers to conservatives.

Dymphna said...


What a thoughtful comment!

My complex PTSD (among other things) certainly makes this a challenge. The thing about PTSD is that it acts for you. Instead of 'feeling' distress emotionally, it simply (and automatically, sans volition) re-routes distress into the body via a cascade of neurochemicals from the HPA axis.

Sometimes an intellectual understanding of a primitive response can be helpful in taming the latter. It's a work in progress.

I find Gregorian chant soothing. There is a timelessness and simplicity to the movement in time of voices singing chants that are millenia old. One is simply carried by the beauty of the human voice in aggregation.

Yes, there is nobility in fighting on. The Baron admires Lars Vilks for his tenacity in the face of so much hostility. Like Vilks, he is undeterred.

Me, I have to build work-arounds for the hostility and irrational behavior I encounter as a blogger. Today I was deleting auto-spam from old posts dating way back. I realized that there was a kind of sunny aspect to the blog before Charles Johnson began his scurrilous attacks. I've recovered from those, but the fragmentation of the Counterjihad is a disappointment and it darkens things a bit.

OTOH, I have never, ever seen a group without conflicts and misunderstandings, so why should this be any different? It's a process, part of the growing pains of any movement.

Thank you for your comment.

And I do think we will transcend the attempts of Islam to make the world an uglier, sadder place.

Zenster said...

Dymphna: And I do think we will transcend the attempts of Islam to make the world an uglier, sadder place.

Oh, rest assured that we will indeed do that. The only question remaining is whether Islam will join us on the other side as a reformed and truly spiritual entity or end up with all the other failed ideologies on history's scrapheap.

Somewhere in this world is a nation that absolutely will not tolerate Islamic predation and it will pull up the Muslim's socks for once and all if they cannot manage to pacify their jihadist lunacy before then.

Again, all that remains to be seen is which nation on earth it is that will do this if Islam itself cannot find a way to avoid it.

laine: There is a nobility in fighting on, each according to his (waning) ability. Meanwhile, take time to succor your spirit with whatever brings serenity - the piercing beauty of nature, divine music (apparently harp music has a particularly salutory effect on blood pressure), time with family and friends...May you and the Baron endure and prosper. You are surely blessed by those who are refreshed by the oasis your site offers to conservatives.

Author! Author! For a moment there I truly thought I was continuing to read Churchill's own words.

At the risk of repeating myself:

laine, it's long past tea for you to please consider contributing some essays to this web site. Your incisive analytical ability and clear-sighted appraisal of this conflict are much needed by all of us who fight the Good Fight™.