Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Suing Mohammed’s Heirs for Libel

In August of last year, a Saudi law firm brought legal action against all the Danish newspapers that published the Mohammed cartoons. It was a blatant probe of the infidel system of defenses, using lawfare to breach the virtual walls of Danish society in order to inflict maximum damage on the culture that dared to insult the prophet.

After pointing out the real purposes of this particular probe, I recommended that the Danes mount a stringent counter-probe to discourage any further similar lawfare:

And sending the Saudi lawyers packing after a stern judicial admonishment is not good enough. The Danish newspapers will by then have incurred substantial legal costs, and the time of judges, clerks, bailiffs, and innumerable government lawyers will have been consumed in pointless wrangling.

The only way to repel this probe successfully is to make it very, very expensive for the people who launched it. Only a painful result will discourage more of the same behavior later on, in other contexts.

Double indemnity is the only way to go. A finding against the plaintiffs with a levy of twice the court costs would send an unambiguous message and discourage further probing.

This past February it seemed that the Danish media might take the opposite tack, and begin a campaign of groveling apology and dhimmitude. Editor-in-Chief Tøger Seidenfaden of the Danish newspaper Politiken — “The New York Times of Denmark” — negotiated a settlement with the “descendants of the Prophet Mohammed”, apologizing for offending them and promising to be a good dhimmi in the future.

Fortunately, Mr. Seidenfaden was in the minority among the Danes. Even the employees of his own newspaper turned against him, publishing an open letter expressing their dismay and their opposition to his actions.

And now a new organization has sprung up to take exactly the action I was hoping for last year: it is countersuing the descendants of Mr. Mohammed Pbuh, Esq. Led by Hans Erling Jensen, a group called Eticha has filed a libel lawsuit on behalf of all the non-Muslims whom Mohammed defamed and insulted in the Koran.

Mr. Erling sent me a copy of the letter he sent to the Saudi law firm. The full text and his introductory explanation are included at the bottom of this post, but here’s the meat of his case:

You and your clients apparently continue to insist that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi may not be portrayed or caricatured. This implies that you and your clients give your unconditional support to the text of the Quran, as it exists today, as well as to the Hadith that, combined with the Quran (and the Sirat) form the basis of Islam and Sharia.

The descendants of the people whom your clients’ forefather compared to apes, pigs and rats, and whose case we now represent, feel not only personally insulted, but also emotionally aggrieved by these denigrations, as their own ancestors have been ridiculed, persecuted and expelled from their lands, since the Quran and Hadith imply that non-Muslims are the enemies of Allah and therefore were and are to be treated as outlaws. Due to the fact that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi claimed, that not he, but Allah was the author of this insult and thus ascribed the saying to him, we find this not only blasphemous but also a thinly disguised attempt to decriminalize Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s own misdemeanors. This will possibly be addressed in a later court case.

The lawsuit demands an apology, and also that the offending passages of the Koran be changed or removed from all publicly available copies of the book in mosques, libraries, etc., by the end of this year.

It divides the offensive material up into seven categories:

1. There are passages asserting that certain Jews are descendants of apes and pigs,
2. that there is only one god and that this god is Allah,
3. that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi is his last prophet,
4. that everyone who does not believe this and the day of judgment are doomed to spend eternity in hell and here on earth they shall be persecuted, tortured or murdered unless they convert to the Muslims’ god Allah and approve the Muslims’ prophet Muhammed as god’s messenger
5. that Allah should furnish detailed revelations of certain people’s sex-life,
6. that Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi seen in today’s light still is the best example people can have (in spite of his barbaric behavior).
7. We also claim that the said Muhammad is responsible for a century-old persecution of women by asserting that they are worth less than men in intelligence, in matters of inheritance economy and parentage. For that we need a major alteration to be made public.

Yes, that should do for starters.

Henrik Ræder Clausen has translated the introductory portion of the “About” page on Eticha’s website:
- - - - - - - - -
A virtual think tank about multiculturalism in Denmark

Eticha provides Denmark a new virtual idea and think tank. Eticha stands for “applied ethics”, and focuses squarely on the future survival of democracy and rule of law in Denmark.

Eticha is independent of party politics and religious affiliations. Eticha is a virtual network where a variety of active individuals contribute knowledge and other resources on a case-by-case basis. We are always interested in involving new persons and new ideas.

While our politicians with their usual lack of proportion keep discussing halal food in schools, the burqa, the niqab and the hijab, the fragmentation of our societies continues apace. This is described in detail in the book Et delt folk (“A Divided Nation”, published summer 2008) by Morten Uhrskov. In spite of the general openness of Danes, the launchers of Eticha are not yet seeing the necessary debate of Denmark’s future “in the light of change”.

We believe the ‘kaleidoscopic’ composition of society — multiculturalism — makes it difficult to formulate new visions acceptable to everyone. The number of people who doubt the ability of politicians to direct developments in our common interest is constantly increasing.

We no longer believe that the current societal structure can be preserved, due to the extensive demographic shifts taking place in Denmark and in Europe. In order to uphold a workable society, we all need to follow the same rules and take part in contributing to the community.

What we need is a plan for action!

More power to Hans Erling Jensen and Eticha! The full text of his cover note and lawsuit are below.


Eticha informs lawyer Faizal Yamani of upcoming lawsuit against Muhammad’s descendants

Supported by a number of Danish and foreign associations, the virtual network Eticha is planning to sue the Muslim prophet Muhammad’s descendants, the group preparing a libel case against a number of Danish newspapers.

Background

It all began when Jyllands Posten in September 2005 published the now famous Muhammad cartoons. After half a year of boycotts, flag and embassy burnings, and various diplomatic crises between Denmark and the Muslim countries, we thought it was over. But no, nay, never! In the spring of 2008 the CIA revealed a plot to murder Kurt Westergaard — the cartoonist who had placed the bomb in Mo’s turban, and thus created the greatest symbol of “freedom of speech and expression” yet in this century.

The Danish newspapers reprinted the cartoons to show solidarity with Kurt Westergaard, which got the ball rolling. In august 2009, Faizal Yamana demanded an unconditional apology from the 15 newspapers to be published in various media across the world, in four different languages. By reprinting the drawings — and especially that of Kurt Westergaard — the newspapers had, according to Faizal Yamani, made themselves guilty of slander against the Muslim prophet Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi.

Consequently, Hans Erling Jensen of Eticha.dk, sent his now famous letter [pdf] to the law firm, where he drew attention to Denmark’s position in history and in the world. But little did it help.

Lawyer Yamani claims to represent 94,000 people, all descendants of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi, who demand an apology for the insult (they claim) their ancestor was subjected to by the Danish newspapers once again publishing the infamous cartoons.

Faizal Yamana intends to open a libel case in London against the Danish newspapers. Not that he expects to win it, he is too well educated to even dream of that. On the other hand, he has funding from a very wealthy foundation whose, objective is to protect Muhammad’s reputation at any cost. This libel case therefore constitutes nothing else than economic blackmail. One newspaper, Politiken, has already done the bean-counting, caved, and apologized.

At Eticha.dk, we presented a new plan. Due to Yamanis’ unethical initiative targeting the Danish newspapers, there was an obvious opportunity to countersue Muhammad’s descendants, to one time for all obtain an apology from people as closely related as possible to the source of the outrageous accusations, slander and the consequences of these statements that generations of innocent and defenseless people have suffered for (the Koran). In contrast to Mr. Yamani, we have a solid case, and now we even know exactly who to target with the lawsuit, that we can achieve justice.

As of today’s date [April 15th, 2010], we have sent the following letter to the law firm in Saudi Arabia:

Law Firm Of Ahmed Zaki Yamani Lawyers and Legal Consultants
35 Hassan Yamani Street, Al Hamra District
P.O Box 1351 Jeddah 21431
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia


                                                                    Denmark 15th of April 2010

Dear Mr. Faisal A Z. Yamani

I am writing to you after being notified that your legal firm represents 94.000 descendants of the prophet Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi in a libel suit against several Danish newspapers. It is a relief to learn that the descendants of Muhammad have a representative, to whom we can raise our claim on behalf of people verbally vilified and physically attacked by the adherents of your religion.

This year alone, we have been contacted by a large number of individuals and organizations who are of the impression that you and your clients are not disposed to change your attitudes with regard to the scripture that Muslims allege to be Allah’s words to Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi.

You and your clients apparently continue to insist that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi may not be portrayed or caricatured. This implies that you and your clients give your unconditional support to the text of the Quran, as it exists today, as well as to the Hadith that, combined with the Quran (and the Sirat) form the basis of Islam and Sharia.

The descendants of the people whom your clients’ forefather compared to apes, pigs and rats, and whose case we now represent, feel not only personally insulted, but also emotionally aggrieved by these denigrations, as their own ancestors have been ridiculed, persecuted and expelled from their lands, since the Quran and Hadith imply that non-Muslims are the enemies of Allah and therefore were and are to be treated as outlaws. Due to the fact that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi claimed, that not he, but Allah was the author of this insult and thus ascribed the saying to him, we find this not only blasphemous but also a thinly disguised attempt to decriminalize Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s own misdemeanors. This will possibly be addressed in a later court case.

Descendants’ claim

With regard to the above, we request you to contact Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants, to demand an unconditional rejection of and an apology for a series of statements and verses in the Quran and Hadith which the said descendants must remove. This includes articles on the world wide web and all new editions of the Quran, Hadith and Sirat.

Our demand includes a long series of texts and/or assertions which your clients’ self-appointed prophet said that he received as direct commands from Allah (via the archangel Gabriel) and which insult and intimidate non-muslims while inciting muslims either to violence or at best to the oppression of people who do not unconditionally submit to islam’s dogma

Unacceptable passages

We have made a list of passages obviously inappropriate for a religion professing to preach peace and tolerance. There are passages asserting that certain Jews are descendants of apes and pigs [1], that there is only one god and that this god is Allah [2], that Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi is his last prophet [3], that everyone who does not believe this and the day of judgment are doomed to spend eternity in hell and here on earth they shall be persecuted, tortured or murdered unless they convert to the Muslims’ god Allah and approve the Muslims’ prophet Muhammed as god’s messenger [4], that Allah should furnish detailed revelations of certain people’s sex-life [5], that Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi seen in today’s light still is the best example people can have (in spite of his barbaric behavior) [6]. We also claim that the said Muhammad is responsible for a century-old persecution of women by asserting that they are worth less than men in intelligence, in matters of inheritance economy and parentage. For that we need a major alteration to be made public [7]

Changes necessary

These changes must also be made in libraries, in all mosques and other public places in which these abominations are disseminated before December 31st 2010. Prior to this date the owners (we assume that Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants possess the rights to the koran, their ancestor’s work!) must forbid publication in its present variation and likewise forbid its distribution by anybody remotely connected to Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants. It must neither be financed by funds nor organisations supporting these descendants in any other issue.

We also demand that you before the termination of the year 2010 on behalf of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants publish a clear and unconditional correction of and apology for the long series of gross insults, violations and persecutions of an immense number of people of other persuasions resulting from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s koran and its influence on his uncritical proselytes.

The corrections and apologies must be published globally with press-releases in English, Arabic, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Russian. We are acquainted with the fact that your legal firm has previously produced texts for this kind of apology and have therefore no hesitation in allotting this task to you and the descendants of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi, in conjunction with whom we are confident you will produce a suitable document.

Regarding the apology and the desired corrections in the Koran we imagine that the affair will have such high news value that it not will be necessary to make specific demands on which media are to be employed. We have confidence in the media’s own ability to administrate and disseminate this fitting gesture from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants. If you fulfill our demands before ultimo December 2010 the involved parties I have been in contact with will relinquish all further demands on Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants and proselytes. Here in Eticha we are at your disposal for any further information that may be necessary.

Conditions

We are convinced that fulfillment of the conditions stated above will be seen as a commendable sign of respect and understanding among first of all women, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Asa-worshippers and atheists of all kinds in the entire world, and that you thereby will contribute to resolving the serious conflict which the koran’s irreconcilable and denunciatory message has created through the centuries.

I would appreciate an answer from you at your earliest convenience — though not later than 60 days from today’s date — informing me as to whether your clients intend to fulfill the above mentioned demands or can suggest a compromise worth discussing.

If your clients — contrary to our expectations — decide not to collaborate, we reserve the right to initiate a global process of which the principal aim will be a court case against your clients for breach of compliance with international law on hate-crimes, incitement to persecution of dissidents and incitement to committing genocide.

Regards
Hans Erling Jensen signature



Hans Erling Jensen,
Eticha.dk

hej@eticha.dk

41 comments:

man-with-the-silver-gun said...

Awesome!
Now if only other Western organisations joined this suit, we'd be getting somewhere.

Don Sharpe said...

THIS is EXACTLY the kind of counter suit needed.
The best defence is a good OFFENCE.

1389 said...

Excellent idea!

Gary Rumain said...

They should also make the ar*elifters prove they are Mahound's heirs. Their own hadiths state that Mahound only ever had one son and he died at age 2.

Zenster said...

With regard to the above, we request you to contact Muhammed ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Hashimi al-Qurashi’s descendants, to demand an unconditional rejection of and an apology for a series of statements and verses in the Quran and Hadith which the said descendants must remove. This includes articles on the world wide web and all new editions of the Quran, Hadith and Sirat.

Priceless! Any refusal to alter the text involved will constitute willful and actionable noncompliance.

An actual attempt to alter any text in the Qur'an will get these people killed.

Let's see these tossers figure out a way to gloss over the fact that their Religion of Peace™ will instigate violence against them if they do not readily admit to the overall tenor and truth of the charges being made by Eticha.

It's long past tea to get Islam's intransigence and unabiding hostility towards all things un-Islamic on the official record and, thereby, begin establishing proper grounds for endless lawsuits against these misogynist, Neanderthal wankers.

Robert Marchenoir said...

Congratulations for this splendid job, Baron.

Juniper in the Desert said...

This is brilliant!

Surely though, these 94,000 (such a neat round number!) will need to prove they are descended from old Mo.

They will all have to take expensive DNA tests to, at the very least, show they are interrelated. Then they will have to prove they are related to Mo. That should be expensive.

I would happily put my name to this letter as one of the "insulted"!

NorseAlchemist said...

This is freaking awesome! Finally, some action that can cause not only entertainment for us, but pain and suffering for those who would see us destroyed!

I love the note at the bottom including us Asatru. Pagans and Heathens stand with everyone else in the fight against this oppression, mostly because we have as much, if not more, to lose as we are not "Peoples of the Book."

I look forwards to hearing more with great interest. I wish them luck and the strength of all gods from every land and people.

EscapeVelocity said...

Its about time.

Good to see. Time to put Islam on trial.

laine said...

It's long past time to go on the offense instead of constantly playing defense. Reverse law fare to drain the deep pockets of the Saudis is a good way to go.

The only thing a Muslim especially the Arabic version understands is force. When they hit you, they must be slapped back twice as hard. Conversely, appeasement is interpreted by them as weakness to be exploited, not a gesture to be reciprocated. The West has the stupidest negotiators like Obama's creature Hillary Clinton giving the farm away to thugs with absolutely nothing in return to show for it. It's like a grade schooler giving his lunch money to a bully and getting whacked anyway.

sswam said...

I'm not a Muslim but I know a little about Islam, and I find your article stupid and insulting to Islam. Your assertions about comparisons to pigs and apes are inaccurate.

Anyone who is not a raging racist genocidal bigot will have some tolerance and friendship toward Islamic people. Apparently the people who like your article are mainly raging racist genocidal bigots.

The USA has been by far the most violent and offensive country in the world, for the past 60 years. You should learn from the Quran (and bible), that it is not right to retaliate and kill someone for the loss of an eye. An eye for an eye is the limit of the law, and forgiveness is better, whereas the national policy of the USA, Israel and many other irreligious / uneducated peoples seems to be to kill for a slight and murder tens of thousands of civillians for a couple of their own citizens.

No need to go to hell when you are creating it all around you.

John Rohan said...

This story is on the front page of Reddit! First time I've seen Gates of Vienna there! Cheers!!!

Zenster said...

sswam: Apparently the people who like your article are mainly raging racist genocidal bigots.

Once again, the tired and shopworn argument that being anti-Islamic = Racism.

How moronic must these fellow travelers be to think that the entire world actually views Islam as a specific race? Muslims come in all skin colors and only the most infantile of minds can possibly think that the justifiable dislike of this world's most barbaric creed amounts to racism.

EscapeVelocity said...

The comments are pretty pathetic, and depressing, at the reddit site. 350 plus so far.

A bunch of ignorant indoctrinated idiots. Clueless.

EscapeVelocity said...

Maybe it will make a few of them think though. Spark some neurons...break them away from their insulated low risk world and technological narcissism....where all they can think about is Leftwing Indoctrination movies, Avatar.

Kent said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Baron Bodissey said...

Kent --

Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum. Your comment violated the last of these rules. We keep a PG-13 blog, and exclude foul language, explicit descriptions, and epithets. This is why I deleted your comment.

Use of asterisks is an appropriate alternative.

----------------------

Kent said...

@sswan

I, as an American, can take the p*** out of spaghetti monster lovers (Christians, Hindis, Muslims, etc) both here and the in the sandy nothing mo calls home, and at my leisure. My Grandfather and other non-[cowards] won that right in battle.

So f*** you. (thanks Grandpa)

You have the right to say what you believe (if you source your post from the US). So your welcome to be stupid in public, step up some more!

It is both silly and pitiful that this endless debate ensues. I will insult all petty, small minded irrational crap peddlers just for what they are. Abraham, L Ron. and the like are this genre.

Good luck looking for rationale in that debate.

For the record:

Allah/Ganesh/Yahway/Muhammad/Jesus can [do something obscene].

Your lack of understanding for what happens in the vacuum of that 60 years of violence is readily appearant.

Look at the 60 years before.

May your off spring have a little more clue ...

EscapeVelocity said...

You seem quite the bigot Kent.

I hope you find yourself in a Muslim country, so you will learn the hard way, that Christianity isnt all that bad and has its merits.

Kent said...

I hope you don't find yourself in hardship anywhere. I hope we can just talk about how our kids have more smiles than us and we live our dreams with needs met.

God(s) have no business here.

I don't care what their origin or belief system they represent. They are for the home, only. I am not about to compare them.

I have found myself in Christian(backwoods Southern US), Muslim (slums outside Paris/in Mumbai/family in Egypt), Hindi (India), and other deeply religious places. The silly argument of which idiot's invisible friend feels better is insane in all cases. The Danes just say that. I also have a right too. Stopping the perpetual crap that is organized religion would make the world nicer for our children. You have a right to feel one religion is better than the other and to voice it. We are better because of we both have rights. It however does not make you less sad.


Viva Netherlands

rebelliousvanilla said...

It's funny sswam, but I don't care about the smears of leftists/liberals. And you don't know enough about Islam - I suggest you pick up the Qu'ran, some Hadith reading and so on.

Also, even if you find racial stuff morally evil, there's no morally evil about people who choose a religion to live by since it is their choice and each choice should be open to discussion and criticism, especially those that alter ones life. At first I thought about giving a proper answer to you, but you're really not worth it.

EscapeVelocity said...

I never argued that you shouldnt have rights Kent.

In fact rights are backed by Christian metaphysics. Which is part of the reason that they came to be prominent in the Euro West...that ALL MEN are created equal (before the eyes of God) and therefore should be treated as such. Men have freewill which is necessary for the great morality play, salvation is based on a choice made freely, not enforced upon men by governments.

But dont let get in the way of your irrational ignorant rants.

EscapeVelocity said...

PS - Stopping the perpetual crap of Marxists and Neo Marxists would make the world nicer for our children.

EscapeVelocity said...

Serious question Kent, why do you insist that Christian metaphysics, ethics, and morality should be banned from informing public debate and legislation in a democracy, but not say Nazism?

Hans Erling Jensen said...

Thank you for publishing this story. We - who have formed it - are very keen of that it will bring something on the table. The forst thing we need of course is the names and identity of all the decendents.

After that we intend to sue them “one for all and all for one” meaning that we can collect the entire compensation from whoever we like. So you first go for the Saudis, and when they have no more money, we will continue with the next and so on…

But of course we need help to do that. Please mail me at hej@eticha.dk

Regards
Hans Erling Jensen
Eticha

NorseAlchemist said...

@sswan, I find your lack of knowledge disturbing.

While I can't speak for everyone, and I haven't studied the Koran, I do know that while "People of the Book" such as Christians and Jews may live in their religions under certain conditions, there are those whose deaths are decreed outright.

Namely, Pagans, Heathens, Wizards, Witches, and followers of any non-Abrahamic religion. Our deaths are non-negotiable in Islam. Consider that before you start slinging your calls of bigotry and racism. Some of us here don't fight for our right to a religion as much as for our lives.

Kent, you have very interesting things to say, but do not sell all religions short because of your experience with a few that are known for their intolerance. I can assure, that historically there hasn't been a war of religious supremacy in any era of the Polytheistic religions. We had our wars, but they were about reasonable things like land, wealth, and glory.

@EV, the concept that all men are equal can be traced back to the Germanic/Scandinavian religion and culture, though elements of it can be found in Roman, Jewish, and others that pre-date Christianity. Don't go taking credit for things you didn't make. To be fair, Christianity spread a lot more equality over the centuries than it has equality.

@rebelliosvanilla, great comment. Religion isn't a race.

Dymphna said...

oh, dear. The devout atheists have found us again.

They seem to be as angry and easily offended as the folks holding the Koran. And the latter are some easily offended dudes.

Whoo boy, what thin skins these devout believers in non-belief have, just like all those folks with their Korans.

It will be interesting to see if any followers of Islam appear. One thing is for sure, they will sound much like the devout, doctrinaire atheists.

Such dudgeon --smiting down god-infested lowlifes with their mighty sword of rationality and absolute certainty.

If you listen to them long enough, it provokes a kind of fondness for such enthusiastic certainty (yes, I do know the etymology of 'enthusiastic'. In the case of the fervent atheists it still applies).

Cute li'l gods-haters.

Skalman said...

@ Dymphna:

Well. I think you are making a HUGE mistake if you really think that all non-believers(yes, I´m one of these ugly little atheists) are equally thin-skinned.

Frankly I don´t give a rat´s @ss what people choose to belive in wheter it´s Mo or the Man in the moon.

As long as people keep it to themselves and don´t push it into my face I´m more than satisfied.

I don´t mind visiting churches, mosques, synagogues or other places of worship but when I do I do it out of respect for the people who want to have their ceremonies there, not because I respect their deities.

That being said I don´t hate any gods. I just don´t believe in any of them and don´t have any need to do so either but I do admit that parts of the religions are admirable as for example the Golden Rule.

EscapeVelocity said...

As long as people keep it to themselves and don´t push it into my face I´m more than satisfied. -- skalman

Does this mean that they arent free to contribute their ideas to the legislative and governing process?

Your assertion seems to claim superiority for godless ideas....not on merit, but simply because they arent affiliated with God belief. In your construct it is perfectly fine for non god believers or ideas not derived from religious tradition, to be pushed into peoples faces. You are what you claim to abhor.

NorseAlchemist said...

I think Skalman is more interested in not seeing anymore crusades, holy wars, and witch hunts. Not claiming any superiority of the godless. I hope that Dymphna is not including the Heathen/Pagans in her group of the godless as well.

My attitude is the same as Skalman. Don't bug me, I won't bug you, and we can live in peace. It's only when that peace is violated to I feel the need to stand up and fight.

We are here because Islam has disturbed the peace of coexistence. EV, don't make it worse by trying to impose a peace of the same kind as Islam's peace.

Skalman said...

@EV: You assume very much and interpret even more. You are also building a strawman here, and not a small one either. I´ve not claimed superiority to ANY ideas and I´ve neither pushed MY beliefs, or lack of the same, into the face of others.

Anyone is free to contribute to any process as far as I´m concerned but I refuse to be governed by the religious belief systems of others and I also refuse being told that I must live my life in accordance with a religious belief system to be a good human being.

I will not however deny that my basic opinions, being born where I am, are based on christian values. That does not necessarily mean that I have to be a believer or wish to hear other people telling me of their faith.

Also, I see no need to believe in any deity in order to behave in a civilised way, eg being kind, helpful, non-violent etc.

As english isn´t my first language I may not express myself as good as I wish I could and due to that you may just have misunderstood my opinion. Otherwise I think you´re barking up the wrong tree this time.

Skalman said...

@ NorseAlchemist: Thanks. You managed to express, in not so many words, my opinion.
Simply spoken, live and let live.

EscapeVelocity said...

Are you 2 libertarians? I can respect that.

Skalman said...

@EV: No. I wouldn´t say that but I do agree to some of the ideas of libertarianism like personal freedom and the absolute right to my property.

Politically I´m more of a conservative with influences from liberalism.

Does it matter? I´m still an atheist, but a tolerant and not so thin-skinned one.

Mike "OZZY" Osborn said...

Bravo for the law suit!

I think that we “mortals” have perverted what it is to be a true believer in GOD and most don’t even know what to believe anymore. We tend to focus on what’s in it for me on this earth and not, “why we are here.” I do not believe that we are here to collect wealth or material things, all of that is manmade garbage that does not amount to anything in the long (end) run.

Think about this for a minute - I tend to think that there is no Past, no Present, and no Future…life (time on earth) serves a purpose that we do not understand, at all! We have closed our eyes to the truth and many are lost.

I believe that Adam and Eve were literally created, as a part of GOD in his likeness and lived in a form that is foreign to us that I will call “the spirit” in the Garden of Eden, that is, a place that is more beautiful then we can possibly imagine. If we think to hard about that place, the thought will fade away like a whisper in a breeze. It is a place where there is no time, no needs, no desires, only true love. We don’t even know what true love means and can only hope that we get invited back to Eden one day to experience the incredible love and joy and thank GOD for it.

While in Eden, Adam and Eve were literally deceived by the dark one, yes the devil, and ate of the forbidden fruit (call it an apple or whatever you like) and from that second forward they crossed over. Crossed a plane from the spirit into flesh, literally flesh and blood, where things were not so wonderful, where bugs bite, clothing is needed to hide nakedness and cold nights hurt sore muscles. It was from that moment; from that immediate moment to this immediate second you are reading this, where we are now, in the flesh and away from the spirit. We are lost and, wondering how we got here, trying to figure out why we are here and, for some, what is the path back to Eden with GOD.

I, as a Christian, believe that GOD is alive and well and in a place where we cannot even comprehend but, he is not far! He is in the place where there is no past, present or future, he is in the place where Adam and Eve’s fall from grace occurred. To him, the fall occurred this very instant, right this very instant and he knows that we are lost in this dark side and, he is gravely concerned for us. So concerned, he immediately gave us a way out, a key to forgiveness, an admonishment for eating of the forbidden fruit. He gave what most on earth would not even think of giving, he gave a part of himself! At the exact moment we fell from grace; he gave us his Son to guide us back.

(continued)

Mike "OZZY" Osborn said...

I believe that GOD is the FATHER, GOD is the SON and GOD is the HOLY SPIRIT…all one, the TRINITY. He came “with” us to “this” dark side in flesh, and yes, as Jesus! This occurred now, not 2000 years ago, right now this very instant, in his time, and he is waiting for us to follow in his footsteps before it is too late.

GOD experienced this “flesh side” of this manmade world, a world entwined and perverted with the dark one, the devil or whatever name you like to use, for one reason. The reason is to show us that we are not lost, we are not without him, we are not forgotten and all we need to do is believe in him and follow his lead and we will be able to return home. Return to where there is no man made anything, back to the spirit, back to the place we cannot even imagine or comprehend. A place so beautiful that I long for it and pray for forgiveness for what we did to fall from grace. I cannot even begin to understand the love he has for us but, I pray that in the very near future I will.

Others have decided that the pursuit of materialist comfort, power and wealth is the measurement of success and nothing more. They have decided to shut GOD out of their lives and declare that all religion is bad and GOD is dead. They have decided that you need to be controlled by them and believe in what they do or else. They also believe that there is no GOD and that only they have true power, the power to regulate and restrict you based on their lacking spiritual knowledge and beliefs.

Other religions like the Muslims believe that their god and Koran is the way to what they believe to be heaven. I don’t know about you but a religion that promotes killing those who do not believe in their way of worship or their Allah is not a something I want to be associated with or diverse with. They say that their god is the GOD of Jesus and Moses!

I, humbly, have to disagree for my GOD is alive and well and loves us more then we can possibly even hope to imagine. My GOD wants us to live in peace with each other and just believe in him and live by his commandments and we will be guided back home. Home in and with the unity of the Holy Spirit.

Sadly we were also given free will which is what I suspect is the reason for our being in this place of flesh and blood. We have free will to live by his commandments and follow his son, or not. It is that simple and is entirely up to us to do as we see fit. But, I must caution you! Don’t stray far or long for I am certain that GOD is not amused at the perverted one and his minions and GOD will remove them to a place I rather not go, in the very near future and in the past, present and future.

I hope and pray you find peace and GOD very soon!

NorseAlchemist said...

@ Mike "OZZY" Osborn said:

Other religions like the Muslims believe that their god and Koran is the way to what they believe to be heaven. I don’t know about you but a religion that promotes killing those who do not believe in their way of worship or their Allah is not a something I want to be associated with or diverse with. They say that their god is the GOD of Jesus and Moses!

Yes, because Christianity has never, ever killed anyone for having a different religion than theirs. No witch-hunts. No forced conversions and executions. No Crusades. It has spread by no other means than peace and love.

Btw, an interesting exercise. In your post(s) substitute God with Allah, and try the same thing for Jesus with Mohamed. Fascinating how it sounds just like what is said over their.

You are entitled to your religion and views, and I have no desire to take them from you. But their god is the same one you have, however much you don't like it. They worship the Abrahamic god of the Jews, as you do.

You say it is a sad thing that we are given free will, that it is why we are here rather than in the timeless Garden of Eden. That is not true. According to your scriptures, humanity is here because they gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

As a Heathen, I know why I am here. I know the lessons my gods and goddesses seek to teach me. I know the paths of my ancestors. As a Christian you speak of peace, to counter the Muslim's talk of war, But I say there is the Heathen path of both War and Peace, for one cannot be without the other, and as popular as non-violent protest at this time, we all know what happens when non-violence meets violence.

There are many paths in this world, and not all who wander differently from the Christian or Muslim paths are lost. Sometimes, we've just found an older and somewhat better way that originally belonged to our people since before the One God came with is One Ways

Michael said...

NorseAlchemist said...

Peace be with you Norse, I am praying for you and hope that you find truth. If you care to venture to this site - http://www.vonbora.org/Project_Von_Bora/Project_von_Bora.html

you will see that I do not speak of God like you.

NorseAlchemist said...

@Michael, if you had read my previous post you would see that I have found truth, and it is a truth that predates what you call truth. You may keep your prays, they are not needed. Indeed, it is the prayers of men like you that lead to the deaths of men like me.

History is filled with the accounts of Followers of the One God going to those who were Pagan and Heathen, seeking to spread the One God's Truth, and when we've rejected the peaceful Giving, The Followers of the One God have made us take that Truth by force.

It is true you don't speak of the One God as I do, but then you are a servant of that God and dare not speak against him, lest you burn forever in the fires of his Hell.

I speak the way I do because I do not serve my gods. I live with them, as kith and kin. They are my friends, some closer than others, but friends none the less. Each one is different, has their own wants, desires, and specialties. They show me there are many paths in this world. They tell me that if I want something, I must obtain it by my own power, not by begging some omnipresent being to give it to me out of the kindness of his heart. They tell me that men and women are of equal value, that each has a role to play, than no man is better than me, that we are all equal.

They are cruel gods, one could say, for they tell me that I must stand. Unlike your One God, who is kind and asks only that you kneel.

If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry, but this is my truth. I need no other. And I certainly don't need anyone forcing their truth upon me simply because they feel it is the One Truth. That is why I come here, to show my support in the face of One Group, who follows the One God, and insists there is only One Way.

Michael said...

Norse Alchemist, I will continue to pray for you and all of GOD's children.

Michael said...

Norse Alchemist,
I do understand your frustrations regarding what man has done to religion and if we indeed did the substituting you requested (Allah in place of God in my text) Muslims would live by the commandments given to Moses on Mt. Sinay that we all must live by (many don’t live by them and kill in the name of God is wrong – I agree). If your suggestion was to happen we would be at peace in this physical world.

I don’t know if you understand or ever read the bible but, if you do or did or don’t’ care to, don’t pull up Google Earth and go to: 28 35’ 41.02”N 35 14’ 21.41”E at an eye altitude of 9 km for you will see the real Mt. Sinay. Don’t go to 28 43’ 24.85N 35 14 21.41E for you will see the “Rock of Horeb” the one that Moses split in two to reveal a raging river of water. Certainly don’t look at the pictures that are attached at those places for you will then see, by your own eyes, things that are written.

Most definitely DO NOT go here, http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=146369, or here, http://www.vonbora.org/Project_Von_Bora/Project_von_Bora.html for I don’t know what will become of you seeing NOAH’s ARK.
Ozzy

NorseAlchemist said...

@Michael,

You failed to understand the substitution experiment. Where you took it and came up with Muslims would worship the way you do, my original intent had been to show that the vocabulary of the two religions is basically the same and would lead ultimately to the same result, which is the elimination of all ways other than their own.

I am not a biblical expert, but I do have some knowledge of the text. I do not deny that the account in the bible happened. The Jews are a real people and they have preserved it well. However, the acknowledgment of you bible does not mean that I recognize it as the One Truth. It doesn't matter to me that one can find the real "Rock of Horeb" or Noah's Ark. I have not denied they exist. Nor have I denied that your god exists. You worship him, thus he is real, if only in the effect he has on you.

What I have denied is the supremacy of your god. He is but one of many divine beings, gods and goddesses who all took part in the creation of man, the earth, and the universe. You presume to tell me what not to do, as if it would have an effect, just as your god presumes to tell the world not to do. I do not agree with this. My gods and goddesses don't tell me what not to do. They tell me what I should do.

In the bible, there are the Ten Commandments. Each one begins with "Thou Shalt Not." Yet, I try to live by the Nine Noble Virtues. they tell me, "Thou Should Be."

Christianity focuses on the afterlife, often disregarding much of this life and calling it sinful. But Heathenism focuses on this life, calling it glorious and sacred, and leaves the afterlife to the afterlife.

@Michael, it is clear you are a strong believer in your God. You have heeded his word, followed his tenants, and seek to convert all non-believers to his righteous path.

In doing so, you have lost more than you can imagine and gained even less. You say you pray for me, but I think they are in fact prayers for yourself, and some tiny, innermost part of you that cries out for a Truth that would fill your life and soul in this world, rather than placing all hopes in the next. My ways are the ways of our forefathers, men and women who lived with the land and gods as friends, not servants to an "omnipotent" being who seems disinclined to practice what he preaches. As you pray for me to be swayed to your path, so do I hope that you will hear your ancestor's call, and return to your peoples.