Sunday, April 11, 2010

Islam is Leaving Albania

Most Westerners, myself included, know little about Albania. Over the last few years I’ve picked up a few tidbits of knowledge, but Albania is still largely terra incognita for me.

When I posted the Albanian translation of Geert Wilders’ speech the other day, I mentioned that many Albanians who are officially Muslims consider themselves Christians, and that the tradition has been passed down secretly within the families for centuries, but I didn’t realize how extensive this phenomenon was. Our Albanian translator, Ilia Toli Ph.D., has left a comment on the post giving more details:

I’m a Christian Orthodox Albanian. Now there’s a census in Albania and the religion will be one of the check-boxes. The biggest opposition to this are the Muslim authorities. They know that people by the millions will declare themselves Christians if given a chance, and that they’ll not be able to brag as they do now that Albania is 70% Muslim. Intermarriages are rampant and children declare themselves Christians. A strong motivation to do so is the fact that Turkey is the pariah of Europe. At every major terroristic event, Albanian Muslims denounce their faith by the hundreds of the thousands. In the northern, mountainous, sparsely inhabited part of the country there are still some oases of fanaticism.

There have been for centuries some Jews of Muslim outlook in Albania. They’re heirs to Shabetai Zevi and live in the countryside of Berat. By now they have no interest on Israel and Israel has no interest on them. They regard themselves just like another Muslim tribe. They’re called Donmeh.

There are a colorful variety of traditions among Albanian Muslims that point to their Christian non-distant past. For example, many have two names, one Christian at home and one Muslim in public. The point is that these all have been very diluted with time. There’s no special designation for these people.
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There’s a great divide between Albanian Muslims of Albania and of the other neighboring countries. All terrorist groups caught in USA were from the latter. They’re more arrogant and assertive.

Sometimes Albanian Christians are even more assertively anti-Serbian, if not at a rhetorical level, because we’re suspicious patriots. By the way, personally I am not a patriot at all, I’m pro-Serbian.

These are the optimistic notes. On the pessimistic side, I don’t want Albania to be template for the future France. Islam is leaving Albania but not the Muslim ways. They’ll be around for the centuries to come. That can be easily noticed on what Albanians reproach themselves. Just an example. Albanians do not ask God to “please give me a horse”, they ask him to “please make the horse of my neighbor die.”

Among friends we try to totally avoid the topic of religion, and if it unfortunately happens, we all recite in chorus “but we’re grown up without religion.”

173 comments:

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

That's an interesting development. Islam often claims to be the fastest growing religion on the planet but I wonder if it's really true, even accounting for birth rates. Given the chance I expect a lot of alleged muslims would probably declare themselves as something else.

And this just when our "elites" in the media seem so enamoured with this bizarre religion.

david said...

I wonder if Mr. Toli could either write more on the subject or provide links to some of his other writings. The thing is that under the Communist rule ALL religion was studiously suppressed, so whatever Moslem/Christian separation exists now must be quite recent. Also, if he would write more on the relation between Albania and specifically Kosovo - it seems that Albanians proper dont want anything to do with K's, but is it possible that the K's, drunken with their militry success would want to take over Albania as echt Albanians (perhaps in cahoots with Macedonian ones)?

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Rocha said...

Ilia Toli,

It's sad to me to see a nations so divided in fraternal hatred. I do see the develpment of christianity in Albania as a positive thing, but apart from the islamic detail the struggle for a greater Albania (in albanian ethnic majority lands) was a good achievement.

You all have my best wishes.

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david said...

Dr. Toli, thank you for your comments. If you have a blog, I'd like to sign up

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Rocha said...

ILIA TOLI,

I do not hev problem with serbs, it just that in Kosovo i sided with Albania, when the yugoslav civil war happened i was pro-serb, simply because the territory was mostly serbian inhabited, that war was anyway crazy, serbs, bosnian and croats are the same people. They are fraticidal one with another because of minor differences!

Now what's this thing with Mahound?

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Gary Rumain said...

Ilia,

Your name sounds almost Yugoslavian to me. Ilija in Croatian, for example (sorry, don't know how to write it in Cyrillic). I'm sure there are other variations (e.g. Macedonian?).

Your mention of Catholics and Orthodox Christians got me curious. Since Albania is next to Greece and the former Yugoslav countries, are there many people in Albania who would consider themselves ethnically Greek or Slavic.

I understand that there are people in Montenegro who would consider themselves ethnically Albanian (not sure if its in the same sense as Kosovo though).

Oh, and forget about Mars. I doubt it will ever happen. Mars is hardly bigger than the moon. So gravity would be too low to make life similar to Earth (let alone the thin air). Living there would be like on a moon base - very boring after a while.

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rebelliousvanilla said...

david, religion wasn't completely surpressed. It was persecuted against, but not completely destroyed. For example, in my country churches and whatnot were demolished, but being religious wasn't banned. Actually this made people be more religious as an unitary thing against the government. You have to realize that the state doing something doesn't mean that it will happen at a community level. And what military success? You mean the success of the American invaders? :P

Rocha, I don't see how Kosovo's independence is a good thing. I mean, it's a historical land of the Serbs and they were the majority there not that far behind in history. I'm glad my country didn't recognize Kosovo as a country and we have no diplomatic relations with it. I don't get why we don't do the same thing with Palestine.

Ilia, it's funny - what you said about the CAIR Qu'ran. It's something that is deeply amusing to people who understand how living under communism was because the dissent under communism was much in the same way with similar narratives in the jokes. Like the communist propaganda newspapers - too bad they print on them because the ink rubs off when you wipe your behind with it(oh, you couldn't find toilet paper in my country so I suppose people actually used it in that way). Oh, and Aromanians are awesome people. I've met a few and they're all hard working, modest(even when loaded) people. The only people I know living in villas and owning three cars of which you don't know until you visit them.

Fellow Peacekeeper said...

Very interesting Ilia.

You only keep mentioning north and south, but to what degree does the religious divide coincide with the Gheg/Tosk?

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Robin Shadowes said...

Gary, try google the name Michael Relfe. Then if you will believe it or not is another thing.

Gary Rumain said...

Ilia, thanks for clearing that up.

Robin, he looks like a nut job. Reptilian bases under hospitals? He must think V is real.

Robert Marchenoir said...

Very interesting, Ilia Toli. Thanks for sharing. This type of information is not readily available in France.

linbetwin said...

Very interesting comments, Ilia!

Albania was the only officially atheist country among the Communist bloc.

So Ilia, if most Albanians are closet Christians, how come your country is led by Muslims? Or is this not the case?

And when will the results of the census be known? How will that affects politics in Albania? Any chance you might get out of the OIC?

And yes, Aromanians are great. Romania and Albania have a long historic relationship.

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Juniper in the Desert said...

Ilia, thank you so much for your illuminating pieces of writing! you are also very funny.

Ilir must be connected to "Illyria". This is where some of the greatest Roman emperors came from, notably Justinian, who started off as a peasant goat-herder but was called to Constantinople by his uncle, a soldier in the Roman Army. He was married to Theodora and his top general was Belisarius(white king).

Please continue to write/blog; maybe you can write a book to educate us all on this subject?

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linbetwin said...

Here's some information about the Dönmeh.

I know Albanians didn't want to join the OIC. What I was asking is, if the census shows that Muslims are not a majority in Albania, could this lead to your country leaving the OIC?

And is this Berisha popular or will he be voted out soon?

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Robert Marchenoir said...

Ilia, this sentence of yours tells a lot about Muslim mentality : "We'd leave OIC if we were confirmed to have only a minority Muslim, less than France."

Of course, France, like all other European countries with a big Muslim problem, has only a tiny minority of Muslims. I do not know the exact figure and it is some sort of a state secret, but it might be anywhere between 4 % and 8 %. The UK , last time I checked, had even less (I remember a figure of 3 %).

So this means that Muslims consider they are the majority as soon as they reach, say, 10 %.

No wonder they have such a poor academic record, and so many problems finding a job.

Their mathematics might be perverted, but, unfortunately, that's the way Muslim maths work : they actually behave as if they were the majority as soon as they reach a few percentage points of the population.

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linbetwin said...

Robert, Muslims don't believe in majorities anyway. That implies democracy, which is haram. Who needs voting and Parliaments when Allah has already dictated the laws?

Robert Marchenoir said...

Ilia, your figures are consistent with mine. Eight percent of the 64 million French population would make 5,1 million Muslims.

However, there are no official statistics for the number of Muslims in France. It can only be inferred from other data. Do you have specific sources ?

I was not trying to give the exact number, which I do not know and do not have the time to research right now. That's the reason I quoted such a large range (4 to 8 %). The real figure is probably within this range.

My point is that Muslim bragging is wildly at odds with how few they are. This is true whether the actual percentage is 4 % or 15 %.

If you fell from Mars down to the Earth and were exposed to pro-Muslim claims in French or British media for the first time, you'd think they were between 40 % and 80 % of the population.

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Afonso Henriques said...

Yeah right... guess only those Albanians who got stuck in Kosovo are muslims.
Oh, and the ones in Macedonia as well.
Oh, oh, and the ones spread across all Western Countries who behave like, well, "cultural enrichers" or non-European ethnic minorities.

I haven't seen many Albanians but I think I prefer East Asians over them.

And I believe I've seen two Albanians around here. They spoke a non-Slavic language which seemed derived from the Balkans. It was not Romanian also. And it didn't have the semi-African sounds of the language of the South Eastern European Gypsies.
I know they were not Greeks because they didn't look like Greeks or spoke like Greeks. They behaved like Gypsies making too much noise and being aggressive and like they were conspiring. I tought they were Turks but the few Turks here are rich and Westernised and they just come on holidays. I came to the conclusion that they ought to be Albanians ...

Anyway, who cares if they're Christian or Muslim?
They will be patriots and side with the muslims anyway...
And those who will not, will not serve us much as they'll probabily be traitors to their own.

My two cents? Go back to Turkey. Or don't annoy me and the rest of Europe but stay in Albania.

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rebelliousvanilla said...

Ilia, that sounds like the doctors in my country. :P

Robert, their number as a percentage is irrelevant. Their ratio in the young population is relevant. And in the 60+ group there are only French people, for example, while in the under 25 population, Muslims are probably more than 10%.

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Robert Marchenoir said...

Yours is a good point, Rebellious Vanilla. For the sake of nitpicking, there are, indeed, quite a few old Algerian men in France. They are those who came in the sixties to work in the building and auto industry, now retired. The Arab community calls them the "chibanis".

Of course, they cause no trouble at all. They are respectful of the French, and are horrified by what the younger generation has become. Sometimes, they scold them in public when they misbehave, and it works. As long as the old guy is around. Then, havoc resumes.

The youngsters, on the other hand, feel humiliated by what they perceive as the subservient attitude of their fathers. This feeds their hate of the French.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Ilia Toli, Baron:

Thanks for these very uplifting news!

For decades, I have considered Albania the least interesting and/or important country in Europe, and was pretty annoyed by seeing a NATO application that I found completely unwarranted. I did, however, take note when Michael Totten reported that in Macedonia, radically more headscarves are seen in the streets than in Albania. Headscarf (or niqab etc.) frequency, I believe, is a reliable indicator for the strenght of Islam in any given area.

This changes my notion of Albania significantly - if what is reported is solid, this is a good example for how Islam should fare elsewhere. Islam is a reactionary religion bringing no benefits, and deserves to be exposed as such.

Robin Shadowes said...

"Robin, he looks like a nut job. Reptilian bases under hospitals? He must think V is real."

Well, I told you so and besides I'm this little comunitys only conspiracy nut and fringe nerd. I'm like The Lone Gunmen all rolled into one.

Afonso Henriques said...

"Of course, they cause no trouble at all. They are respectful of the French, and are horrified by what the younger generation has become. Sometimes, they scold them in public when they misbehave, and it works. As long as the old guy is around. Then, havoc resumes.

The youngsters, on the other hand, feel humiliated by what they perceive as the subservient attitude of their fathers. This feeds their hate of the French"

Robert, I feel exactly the same in relation to the African community in my country. There are some in the eldery who are fine gentlemen but their grandsons, usually... However it's a three generation thing: We have what I'll call "the good blacks", who were already adults in Africa during the 60s and 70s and were considered back then as "assimilated". These people, as long as they have opted for Portugal, don't create any problems.
Their sons were already... more prone to create problems but not much. The new generation, from the 80s and 90s... it's all about cultural enrichment.

And it's funny because the most well behaved ones were the ones who had a more deep connection to the past and towards Africa.

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Ilia, can you provide sources that confirm that Albanians didn't support Kosovo? It goes against everything I was "fed up with", and also, in my views, logic.

And I regret to have written what I did. I wrote it before reading the comments and believing that the discussion would have other tones.

I also want to say that for what you write you seem a nice fellow, but it is not to you that I am against.
It is the collective entity (or Nation) known as Albania that I view as destructive and although I am very open to debate and new evidence, I think it will be a hard task to make me believe otherwise. I've made my own investigations via the internet over Albania and I've read some pieces of information regarding it so that I've made up my mind - although I reckon that information I've gathered is probabily unsatisfactory.

You may start - if you want - by telling me about the emergence of Albanian ethnic/national identity. And please, don't come up with the Ilyrians.

You Albanians probabily have some Ilyrian blood weather you're their direct descendents or trough miscegenation but it is certain to me that regardless that ancestry, there was no clear progression from an ethnic identity of Ilyrians towards Albanians.

(Like, here we are maily descendents from two Celtic tribes: The Gallaecians and the Lusitanians. Although the Gallaecians maintained more or less some identity continuity, the Lusitanians were lost. The Central Portuguese were previously known as Christians and Hispano-Romans but they didn't started to call themselves Portuguese when they ceased to call themselves Lusitanians.)

I hope I made my self and my position as somewhat anti-Albanian and not anti-you particularly - although you're Albanian - clear.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Afonso, that's inevitable. The first immigrants are respectful, not only because they're in the weak position of being shipped back home, but also because they realize the country they're in is built by other people who did do certain things right considering the superiority of the societies they moved to compared to those from which they moved. Also, their behaviour is just regression to the mean, which is inevitable to happen inside a group.

Robert, I was just referring at things as a ratio. Funny, but they seem more well mannered than gypsies, considering that if the kids get scolded here, they just talk back and it can get physical. Then they wonder why we are disgusted by them as a people. Oh, and don't try to civilize them by telling them to quiet down on mass transit, for example, unless you want to be spat at. It kind of makes me wish I was a man so that I could punch them in the face. By the way, your immigrants made Paris the 2nd biggest disappointment in my Eurotrips, after London. I remember sitting in the airport and counting people who seem French and non-French and I think about 30-40% were French out of the 50-60% who were European.

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Rocha said...

RV,

Kosovo was a good thing because it was Albanian, Serbs can bitch all they want but it's that was at least since the middle XIX century.
Now i do not liked the way it was done with american involvement, bombing of Serbia, etc. Again it could have been done right in 1913.
Bulgaria would have Macedonia and Albania could have Kosovo, Turkey would be out of Europe (probaly bar constantinople) but like everything in the Balkans since the Crimean War 1913 was tainted by the great powers.

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Liberal.AL said...

Ilia(why not Ilir?), you make yourself seem the wise man of the Albanian psyche, most of the people here reading in look to your words with intrigue, I as a Christian Albanian am laughing at your 'Sentiments' posted within.

To the ppl reading in, take his words with a grain of salt. These are merely the opinions of a person with some scope, limited scope trying to appease others, namely Orthodox Slavs or Hellenic and Christain Conservatives.
It seems being baptised in a Russian Orthodox Church has done wonders.
I'd even bet youre the progeny of flaming communists.

Entertaining post, factual, somewhat not really, heavily misguided and traces of ulterior motives, I'll reserve the right to read on a little further, before I decide to (or not)counter post.

Who did this to you?

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Liberal.AL said...

I said 'factual, somewhat, not really, misguided and traces of ulterior motives'.

So im either a Gheg Catholic (which implies?) or a Christian Orthodoxes proving my patriotic credentials (which implies?).

What is you mean by drug dealing Islam Terrorist Kosovar's, define drug dealing and terrorist. Are not Serbs equally qualified in drug dealing and terrorism as Albanians have been labelled if not more and at a higher level? The wars in the former Yugoslavia cement their terrorist credentials, post war attacks on the US embassy etc, as for drug dealing the Serbs and all the Balkan Mafia Groups which include the political elite (think Djukanovic) work closely together, are not religious by nature but driven by profits, this includes the Albanian Mafia of Vlora which controlled and utilised its proximity to the Italian coast to profit from drugs and human trafficking namely of young women into a life of prostitution in Italy and beyond. This event/phenomenon for which we Albanian's must take responsibility for our own actions sullied the reputation of Albanians world wide, more so than the so called Drug Dealing Islam Terrorist Kosovar's. Was this transaction of drugs and women driven by religious sentiment also?
Was the recent uncovered assassination attempt on Tadic a plot by the Serbian Orthodox Church. During the wars in the Former Yugoslavia in which the Serbian Orthodox Church blessed the soldiers before they committed the unspeakable atrocities against 'Human Beings' 'Gods Children', where was 'Christ' and his 'Holy Message' in their actions?

There always come to mind a quote by a Serbian politician and writer, when ever I think of any Serbian propaganda about Serbian false or misguided history and claims in Kosovo and where ever, Dobrica Cosic - "Deobe"(Divisions) 1961. Volume I, page 135: "A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.", and this from the man regarded as the 'Father of the Nation' This sums up Serbs and the level they will go to, well. The other way to sum up Serbs is 'Un-Christian' and the Greeks don't fall far from this tree also. Thank god, Europe ad NATO did the right Christian thing and intervened.

You may be educated in Mathematics, as for history, sociology, psychology, anthropology and theology, you're a bumbling novice.
Stick to what you know.

As for who I am, it matters not, what matters is we Albanians albeit, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, Atheist, know what fabric you're made of.

Who did this to you?

Embarrassing quite embarrassing.

Keep writing, I'll read on carefully.

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qafirarnaut said...

What I was asking is, if the census shows that Muslims are not a majority in Albania, could this lead to your country leaving the OIC?
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Albania will not leave the OIC because it costs nothing to adhere there.

The census has not taken place yet.
The muslim numbers will most certainly be diluted, but primarily because the Bektashi Order of Dervishes (to which 25% of the population adheres to) will not be counted as Muslim. Who are the Bektashi? Think of them as the eastern equivalent of the Knights Templar.

Also, it is the State Department, under Hillary Clinton who brands Albanians as muslims. Albanians do not brand themselves that way, with the rare exception of a few retarded individual such as Fort Dix Six. Please find the article "Stupid Brave" from Harpers Magazine to understand why these boys were acting simply as RETARDS, not Albanians or Muslim

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rebelliousvanilla said...

Rocha, if you are clueless about European history and politics, I suggest you don't comment on it. By the way, why should London still be British? It's not British ethnically, so why shouldn't it be ruled by Pakistan? This is your logic. The best thing that would have happened, would be the US staying out of Europe. Without their stupid meddling in WW1, we would have avoided WW2, the rise of fascism and communism to the extents they did and so on. It's hilarious how your ideas actually incentivise peopel to do ethnic cleansing. Heck, if Romanians kill off everyone in Europe(or well, for us to become a majority), all Europe belongs to us.

Baron Bodissey said...

I've removed the comments that contained direct insults towards other commenters, and the responses to those comments.

If I have to do that again, I'll close this thread.

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Rocha said...

Ilia Toli,

No, Kosovo was not serbian in 1913. It was really much more serbian than it is today or in the 90's, but serbian were not the majority in the region nor locally in many areas. But PLEASE DO NOT believe in me. Please look for the etnographical maps done in the region in the XIX and XX century. Please do that. As your second statement i will treat it toguether with my answer to Rebellious Vanilla.

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Rocha said...

Rebellious Vanilla,

I'm not clueless about european history and politics, though i did commited an error in my last comment i wanted to write "in the Balkans since the Crimean War like the 1913 war was tainted by the great powers." both Great Britain and Austria-Hungary politics in the region were anti-european. If it were for Austria-Hungary Romania would still be a Ottoman vassal. Again if for Autria-Hungary Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Greece would be smashed by the Ottomans, it even almost went to war against the Alliance, today we all know what it would have happened if the Alliance losed the war, they would have done to Macedonia and Thrace what they have done to the Armenians and the Greeks just a few years later. Now they lend support to your country, so when the bulgarians made their stupid choice to turn agaisnt their allies Romania invaded. They got Silitra as a premium, a province that had not many romanians on it.

Now please do not think i'm pro-multiculturalist. I'm PRO-Nationalist when dealing with european peoples, but a imperialist when with non-europeans, i do not have fear of ethnic cleasing too and i'm not ashamed of it. It resolved the german problem in the east, it resolved the greek problem on asia and the polish problem in Belarus and Ukraine. I'm not for it when used agaisnt europeans and even with non europeans i do prefer the population transfer choice. But it's a powerful tool and a tool that should not be forgotten. What Albanians did in Kosovo was nasty and Serbia should not leave North Kosovo to Albania but apart to Strpce and North Kosovo it has no right to the territory.

The Britts should just expell ALL minorities in GB not just in London, apart from a few important refugges our doors should be closed. Do not understand my logic?
That's a muslin say that translates it "I against my Brother, My brother and I against my cousin. My cousin and us against the world."

We do agree on U.S.A. involvement,
not that i'm against U.S.A. involving in anything but Wilson did really messed up Europe. He and the Brits and the French. They could have defeated the Red Russians just after the war and do the thing right, with a united Germany, and a bigger Hungary but their germanophobia seeded WWII.

Rocha said...

Now most of it is Utopia. As we are gutless now thing will go from bad to worse in the west and i do hope that your country resist.

Good Luck.

Rocha said...

Ilia Toli,

I really do not doubt Albania is far more christian or much more atheist and far less muslin than we thought. Now i do believe you are writting lies. Why i do not know, but i doubt is in the shape you paint.

As for Hijacking well i did posted my opinion as did others. Get used to it. Today it may be me, tomorrow it may be RV or Afonso or even the Baron. We will never agree on everything.

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qafirarnaut said...

Albanian guys, you all are making my point, do you get this?
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No we dont get this! What were your points?(in point form pls, not in rant form)

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qafirarnaut said...

because though Albanians have become Christians, Muslim ways are still around
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How have Albanians become Christians? We dont give a rat's scrotum about Christianity and Islam in equal fashion.

Muslim ways? What are they?

Last time I checked it least tolerant of the Albanians are memebers of your lot (i.e. the Rrotodox) who, by the way, have forgotten why they even are members of your lot. They just soldier on with the "i'm the prettiest of all birds" attidue, expecting a reward for their religious obstinacy ('oh I didnt sell out for a tax break, therefore I'm better'..bla bla bla)

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qafirarnaut said...

an Algerian Arab came quick out of her office and asked me "where did you learn Tamazigh?" My accent looked as North African Berber to her.
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It was probably you who looked like 'something', and not your accent. I've met and fought (in my youth) many algerians..no such thing has been said to me.

qafirarnaut said...

Albania is the only country in Europe where Kabil is a given name. Cabylie is a region of Algeria.
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I'm from Albania, i've never heard of such personal name or toponym. Where did you say you were from?

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qafirarnaut said...

Ah yes! You found one.. and he is a fan of Ben Stiller :)

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Baron Bodissey said...

qafirarnaut --

This is an English-language blog. Please don't leave messages in other languages without translating the text into English for the benefit of those who don't understand the language.

I ran what you said through Google's machine translator, which was able to translate part of it. It looked to be an insult, so I deleted it.

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Baron Bodissey said...

Dr. Toli, the rules apply to you as much as to qafiranaut. Please translate any Albanian you post here, for the benefit of the rest of us.

A google translation of the above seems to indicate that it is not an insult, so I let it stand. Here's what google says:

"PhD was the best of the famous University of Vlora (one of the very best in the world TM). The better they are at the University of Vlora, which do not recognize any postgraduate of the University of Pisa, Italy. I've muzzle for doctors? Only patriotic and honest to the nation mbrothesine leftojne for Tenet postgraduate deserve."

In future, please include an approximate translation of what you post in Albanian. If you are less than fully accurate in your translation, I'm certain that some of our other Albanian readers will correct it.

ILIA TOLI said...
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Baron Bodissey said...

Thank you, Dr. Toli. I really appreciate context!

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qafirarnaut said...

My good baron, as someone else said you might want to take this doctor of yours with a grain of salt. From what I have read he is a rather tribal fellow, and in his mind, Albania does not go further than his grandfather's chicken coop. The mere fact he has a PhD or has mastered English well enough to translate Geert's speech does not make him an expert in the matters he keeps harping on.

ILIA TOLI said...
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Baron Bodissey said...

gafiranaut --

Since my ignorance about Albania is all but total, I rely on you, Dr. Toli, and other Albanians to inform me.

When your insult each other, I learn nothing about Albania, except that Albanians have a tendency to insult each other.

Dr. Toli has expressed his opinions, but he has also offered us a long list of clearly-stated facts. If you think any of those facts are wrong, please indicate which ones they are, and supply the correct facts. We can then weight the conflicting statements and attempt to assess which ones are correct.

Insulting the person who listed the facts does not convince me of anything.

Stating that Dr. Toli's grandfather may have owned a chicken coop convinces me of nothing. As an American, and especially as a Southern American, I'm used to having my intelligence and educational achievements called into question because of my humble background.

As far as I'm concerned, such arguments hold no merit.

qafirarnaut said...

When your insult each other, I learn nothing about Albania, except that Albanians have a tendency to insult each other.
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Well that's just about everything one needs to know about Albanians, and you should view Dr.Toli's 'contribution' to this blog much in the same way(his translation of Geert's speech excepted)

ILIA TOLI said...
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Baron Bodissey said...

Yes, there are spam comments waiting for me every morning when I get up. Deleting them all is part of my early-morning chores.

Rezi said...

Romans 15:19 (New International Version)

19....So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

There is no doubt about the Albanians Past...The challenge is to dig in to our culture until we find our roots...take care and make them grow...so we can help the tree grow...so it can produce a new and good fruit...

ILIA TOLI said...
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Henrik Ræder said...

And stop hating Serbia! They did nothing wrong to deserve this.

I second this!

And am very glad to hear it from an Albanian. Thanks!

ILIA TOLI said...
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qafirarnaut said...

I'm a lone wolf in a jungle of hienas.
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Poor endangered species..how bout Yellowstone park for you and yours? You'd feel safe there.

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qafirarnaut said...

Can you pls interpret reality properly Dr? These are not marriages Serb - Albanian, these are marriages Serb poor peasant who cant afford to have a spine (identity) for the belly is flat right next to what passes for a spine.

ILIA TOLI said...
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qafirarnaut said...

I report reality
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Yes indeed, 'fair and balanced' :) just like your friends at Fox

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qafirarnaut said...

We were the soldiers of ottoman empire. We were ok, why would we possibly care about independence?
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Not 'we'..your clan is known to be one of cowards who think blood smells like the feces they defecate in their pants before the eve of the battle. Raja Laluc! Dhimmitude has really messed you up. You need to emancipate yourself from your dhimmi heritage, and you're not going about it the right way

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Landi said...

The more I read this the more becomes apparent that by stating incorrect "Facts" Dr Toli has either got an agenda wrapped up in the name of the "Orthodox brotherhood" or he is totally deluded in thinking he's the true and only voice of Albania (..or so he wishes)
I am probably going to add more fuel to the fire here but before I do so let me attempt to put the “third party observers” into perspective.
The difference of opinions between Albanians (Regarding any subject) is well known for the hint of insult and sarcasm thrown in ( Not that you haven't noticed)
I can see a lot of insult and arrogance from Toli's comments. Wonder were that comes from ?!! Aren't you the one that's advocating for freedom of speech and liberalism?

Anyway, back to the topic.
As someone that totally despises religion of any flavour and thinks it is a product of ignorance, but cares about the country where I and my ancestors are born, I hope this census (If done properly that is) reminds the interested few of some long awaited truths about Albania.

Back to the subtopic. What's the love (I could have put acceptance instead of love but decided not to..) for the Serbs all about??
Although undeniably, you can't put everyone in the same bag, we are referring to actual facts in here that have happened in the near and distant past between “Them and Us”.
What have they done for us to even deserve some sort of positive acknowledgment?

Aren't they trying to get to the OIC as well, what's that all about: http://www.thestatesmen.net/news/serbia-seeks-pakistan%E2%80%99s-help-to-get-an-observer-status-in-oic/

What have you done for your own country apart from shredding it to bits if it doesn't turn out to come close to your vision for it?

I think we should accept our history, inc religious influences, no matter what, because it has part on who we are. And I am not giving food for thought to the cynics here.

Regards

Landi

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qafirarnaut said...

My good Baron,

It should be obvious by now that 'dr' Toli is not an impartial observer, and in the interest of fairness this entire blog entry regarding Albania, based on his 'fair' and 'sober' assesment must be taken down so as not poisen the waters further.

There are other Albanians who, flabbergasted as they are by Toli's flight of fantasy, would more than love to help protect the Gates of Vienna.

Homophobic Horse said...

What a thread. Wow.

Baron Bodissey said...

qafirarnaut --

I don't mind that Dr. Toli is biased. I don't mind that you're biased.

I'm biased myself, and proud of it!

You have complained about what he says, and that's fine. I suggest that you point to specific facts cited by him that you know are wrong, and refute him. Cite the correct facts yourself.

As for his opinions, he's entitled to them. I don't mind if he posts them here. Everyone is welcome to express his opinion, provided he obeys the rules of civility and decorum.

qafirarnaut said...

Baron

You in north america and the British Isles, are used to muslims from the British Raj. If that's so then you are mostly used to Arabs and their stooges in Pakistan.

The Balkans is a whole different animal..different even from the Caucauses. It has been well over 100 years since we broke with the East, and while we have a few hotheads like Toli who like to speak of identity in terms of religion, most of us speak of identity in terms of blood and soil. Why? Long story!

The few outliers Toli mentions only serve to further his delusions. The rest of us know better, and so should you.

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Landi said...

Mr Toli,
I meant, insulting as in a demeaning way. No need for actual examples, just read most of your posts and notice their tone, take your anti-Albanian glasses and the religious frock off (No pun intended)and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I am trying to understand what you said about what Albania has done to you, but I am quite honestly struggling a bit. Whatever has happened to you, you seem to confuse certain individuals or groups with a whole nation! I've noticed you have done this in many occasions, which makes me think it isn't by accident.
These are the same tricks and patterns used by the anti-Albanian propaganda machine in order to justify their criminal activities.
No facts, just rumors.
In terms of what you have done for Albania, you come back with what??
You were a professor at a University? What sort of contribution is that for the country? We all have to work to put food on our plate but that’s the minimum you could indirectly do for your country. You seem to be self centered to the point of absurdity.
One can't deny the fact that you are intellectually advanced, and this is something that could've been used to generate some sort of positive publicity for a country that doesn't often get many.
The fact that you have a PHD and have knowledge of so many languages is indeed a good achievement but is still very far from the "Master of the Universal Truth" which you believe you are.
It is not just the Albanian criminals in the west that make the life more difficult for the average law abiding Albanian, it is also people like you. I hope you are proud of what you are doing.

We are survivors whether you like it or not. "Religion" or lack of it is one of the factors of that.
Albanians have never fought for religion (with the odd exception). We are religiously tolerant because we don't care for it. Sometimes religious affiliations are only done to serve a bigger cause, whether that's financial or something else.

On another point, I was born and have lived on the triangle you mention before, but never noticed any sort of gay tendencies on the population you speak off.
It could well be a case of "If you don't look for it you won't find it" but honestly I don't know where you get that info from and what purpose do these rumors serve. Isn't this a religious topic anyway, why do you have to throw that in the mix??

I couldn't disagree with you anymore in a lot of points but I think I am giving you too much importance if I continue.

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qafirarnaut said...

I again made Albania a gift of myself. They didn't appreciate.
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Lol! Tolias, why would I want to beat you. You amuse me so much.

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Landi said...

Mr Toli,

E-mail harvesters are probably going to appreciate it that you published your address.

I honestly wished we crossed paths in a different scene, ie discussing AES which is one of my areas of interest.
As for this, what can I say, please keep posting and you may soon run out of fictional so called facts on how to badmouth the country where you come from for the sake of some personal disagreement you have with certain group of people. Besides, don't they have legal binding contracts where you are to avoid situations like this?!

There are loads of common knowledges over there as well regarding people from the Lushnja region, something to do with "Rabitts" but we don't want to go down that route do we? It doesn't serve a purpose in this topic.

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qafirarnaut said...

There are loads of common knowledge over there as well regarding people from the Lushnja region, something to do with "Rabbits" but we don't want to go down that route do we?
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Oh I think at this point we have no choice, but to invoke the Rabbit.

qafirarnaut said...

Here's a link to the taped conversation between the Albanian members of Fort Dix Six

http://qafirarnaut.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/fort-dix-six-stupid-brave/

Pay special attention to Dritan Duka's comment regardin 'the mujahedeen' who showed up in Kosovo, thinking they were fighting for muslims, but finding that this was a nationalist struggle instead.

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Rocha said...

Ilia Toli,

People here have already discussed your topic, untill something new happens about Albania i suggest you to look in the other topics.

Dritar said...

Ilia, you clearly have an agenda pertaining to the issue of religion in albania. The truth is most albanians view religion as an unnecessary evil that has caused our people many hardships. Albania was an atheistic country for many years under the hoxha communist regime. The view you hold of our country is completely false and somewhat fabricated in advancing a christian cause. I respect your perspective but don't think your an authority on the matter. What binds us together is not religion as you claim that is a major factor but ethnicity.

Dritar said...

I realize that i typed a confusing sentence previously. I meant to make the argument that you're heavily biased when it comes to religion and our people. It's clear that you're pro-Christianity.

Dritar said...

What the serbs did to the albanians was heartless and despicable. Don't try to rationalize ethnic cleansing. It's a very real phenomenon that has occurred throughout history. I do understand many serbs are great and wholesome people but their government in the past century has committed some of the biggest crimes humanity can speak of. They did it to the bosnians, croatians, and slovenians as well not just the albanians.

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albaniafx said...

Qafirarnaut, from your nickname you look's like a 'jevgjit' more than Albanian .And what you claim about links between you and north algerian Kabyles , is sure that you are one of them. In Albania the most part of muslim practicants are from your "jevgjit" community. One thing is sure that you are not Albanians.
Thats true that Albanian religion in the most part oh history was the religion of the power and the religion of the state. Albanians were first pagans (still 14 March , is celebrated widely in Albania), after that was Christians , and after that , in Byzanthine rule Christian Orthodox , and in Venetian rule began Cathilics, and in Ottoman rule becamed Muslim, and in Communist rule becamed atheists.
There are too little religion practicants in todays Albania. There are a lot of mixed familys in Albania. And there are a lot of reconverted in Albania. My grandfather was muslim, my father is still atheist, me my brothers and our familys are Christians. Sincerely i think that Albanian pepolpe are more opportunists than religious.

qafirarnaut said...

Baron, you will forgive our pesants for they know not what they write:)

ILIA TOLI said...
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qafirarnaut said...

More news related to the Fort Dix Six (of which 3 were Albanian)

http://newsblaze.com/story/20100512160716zzzz.nb/topstory.html

AlbKrist said...

Here i come again!
@Ilia
Why are you proSerb?! Are you in their side! We both Catholics and Muslims where United against them! You remember that Serbs wanted to divide Albania among Greece and killed many and many Albanian catholics in the north?!
@qafirarnaut
Who are you?! go away infidel!
@Dritan
It is true what you mention and Ilia is a little bit unrealistic! But you should accept that albania has nothing to do with Islam! We can say that muslims albanians are indifferent about religion!
@Others
Yes! Albanians are different from Kosovars! In culture in way of living and meny other thing! You mentioned that they will change Us! That is Impossible! They will lears from Us! We are the Motherland! Nobody could change our destiny neither the Turks in 500 years! We will be part of Europe and thats All

Albanian Heart said...

The land or territory called "Kosov/a/o is a part of the Albanian motherland also you ning-nong.

We may have some different ways of thinking and living, etc, but this is only because we have lived under occupation for much longer than you guys (in what we call POLITICAL Albania of 1912).
The serbs did not care about removing islam out of our lives (as was done in your case - presuming you were born in "Albania"), in fact they (the serbs) wanted it (islam) to remain with us and thrive even, so that they could use this fact against us on the world stage (they would call us: the remanents of the turks, islamic fundementalists, non-indigenous people of the Balkans, etc). They in fact wanted us to remain a backward & uneducated people. Whenever we Albanians of occupied Albania (Kosova in my case) wanted anything nationalistic (our own schools, our own curriculum, naming our children pure Albanian names; meaning not muslim or christian names, etc) we were denied it and even jailed and killed for it, but if we say wanted to open a mosque or celebrate a muslim holiday, etc well, this was OK.

Now what does this tell you?

Bye for now.

Ilirian Bytyçi

(no meed for me to hide my name)

netizen said...

It tells me that you're lying, Bytyqi. I know this for a fact that Serbia was interested to assimilate and civilize you, especially after the failure of population exchange with turkey soon after WWII.

netizen said...

Netizen is the new ilia.

marevollousat_urcall said...

haha pro -serbian u are no albanian (im talking to the author)
i am albanian and a muslim and i can tell you by honest that all you have said is garabage
there are more albanian conversions to islam then christianity - albanians in majority in albania are muslims hence not all practing muslims but muslims
i do not care for what relgion an albanian is as he is albanian but to say u are pro serbian hmm but relgion still plays a part for example i will not get married to a catholic albanian oh no

and can i say that not all of us were catholics or christians before islam many of us had our pagan albanian beliefs and the christian albanians have made all of these gods saints (but then this means that albanians are not even practicing the real christianity )

Izzit me? said...
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Anonymous said...

I'm muslim and proud, even after decades of Enver Hoxha's communism, Albanian are MUSLIM.

Anonymous said...

Ilia what are you. Vlach/aromanian Greek ? Because no Albanian Muslim or Christian would be caught dead saying "I support Serbia" Albanian religion is albanianism .

TZ said...

this problem has one solution.
Albanians either get back to paganism, or start a bew Religion based on BESA and start to worship DODONA again.
Christianity and Islam are both Semitic religion anyways.
As for Ilia Toli, the first thought that comes up in my mind is the term "Self-hating Jew"