Sunday, January 20, 2008

Regarding the Detractors of Vlaams Belang

The Fjordman Report

The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.
For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here.



Several prominent blogs are at it again with accusations against various European groups. Despite what The Australian newspaper claims, the British National Party did not participate at the meeting to establish “Cities against Islamization.” They also did not participate at the Counter-Jihad Conference in October, because they carry too much baggage with them, including open anti-Semitism.

I understand, however, the deep frustration of native Brits who have to watch as their country disappears right in front of them, and have few real alternatives to turn to. If the BNP gets more support, this is only due to the failure or outright betrayal of the established parties in the UK and throughout the European Union. If the mainstream parties want to restore the public’s faith in them then they have to address their concerns, permanently end Muslim immigration, and take a long break from mass immigration in general.

Since I’m already here, I would like to ask VB’s detractors a question. They have warned against the rise of “Fascists” in Europe, but have never made any attempt to define exactly what “Fascism” is. It’s about time they did that. So what is fascism?

If they answered that, they would notice that people such as Jonah Goldberg argue that Fascism is in many ways a left-wing movement. Daniel Pipes seems to agree, and I have been arguing the same in the past. I have been advocating more free speech in Europe, less government intrusion and more checks and balances on state power, viewpoints as far removed from Fascism as humanly possible.

In contrast, the left-wing comrades of Øyvind Strømmen, the third-rate Norwegian Islam apologist who has for years written disparagingly about Oriana Fallaci, Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq and other anti-Jihadists and is now enthusiastically linked to by some anti-Jihad blogs, are far closer to the ideals of Fascism and the all-powerful state than I am.
- - - - - - - - -
Moreover, I would like to point out that the only persons throughout this latest blog war who have linked approvingly to an organization whose leading members have advocated genocide against hundreds of millions of people are these same supposedly anti-jihad bloggers. One of the co-founders of Swedish extreme left-wing organization Expo, Tobias Hübinette, wrote in 1996 that “To feel and even think that the white race is inferior in every conceivable way is natural with regards to its history and current actions. Let the Western countries of the white race perish in blood and suffering. Long live the multicultural, racially mixed and classless ecological society! Long live anarchy!”

Hübinette continued working for Expo after he had made this open call for the extermination of every white person on the planet. Expo has received public support for their work for “Multicultural tolerance.”

This “anti-racist” organization was used by the critics of Sverigedemokraterna as a primary source regarding Swedish politics, despite the fact that I warned against doing so. These detractors should be decent enough to publicly apologize for linking approvingly to an organization whose co-founder has called for the extermination of every single person of European origins, especially since they are so concerned about the supposed “extremism” of others.

I should also mention that Expo a few weeks ago published a report entitled “The war against Islam” about the rise of “organized Islamophobia” in the West. They especially focused on a network of “Islamophobic blogs” that warned against the spread of sharia and “should probably be banned.” Some of the blogs mentioned were the same ones that use Expo as a valued source!

So self-righteous blogs link approvingly to an organization which thinks they are dangerous and Islamophobic, and should probably be banned by law. The term “useful idiots” does come to mind.

Various high-minded people are concerned that the anti-Jihad movement can be infiltrated by political extremists. I agree, although I would be at least as concerned regarding left-wing extremists as right-wing extremists. Judging from the uncritical way Expo and similar organizations have been linked, I am tempted to conclude that somebody is indeed being used as a tool by groups with a secret agenda.

And it’s not me.

51 comments:

VinceP1974 said...

Great article!

Pity it had to be written at all.

1389 said...

O/T:

Foehammer's Anvil is still down. Covert censorship is suspected.

Jan. 20: Experiencing difficulties beyond my control

Jan. 19: Foehammer's Anvil blog taken down by LunarPages

(Jan. 11: Foehammer's Anvil website taken down - again!

Natalie said...

Excellent article as usual, Fjordman. You're doing a fine job of standing up for us (that is, those slandered by LGF and company). As usual, your article is articulate, convincing, and just way more logical than anything the other side has said. Keep up the good work.

heroyalwhyness said...

Thank you, Fjordman. We are indebted to you for your tireless efforts to bring attention to and properly focus on this.

AngleofRepose said...

Once again, thanks for your excellent contributions, Fjordude.

I think it important to point out that Charles wrote:

It's curious that Brussels Journal doesn't mention the BNP. Numerous Australian papers carried the story, credited to "Correspondents in Brussels," and specifically identified the BNP as being there.

Numerous papers? As of this writing, google lists one Australian source, the same one used by CJ and RS. Care to name the other "numerous" Oz papers, Charles? And note this to the right..

Article from: Agence France-Presse

Kinda makes ya wonder who those "correspondents" are, n'est pas?

It's beyond me that CJ, who constantly bags on the MSM and their shoddy work, would depend so heavily on them now.

Trust but verify, d*ckweed. RS might take care to heed that advice as well. Oh and, whatever happened to that 48 hr golden rule of yours? Kinda goes out the window whenever it concerns the VB, eh?

You suck.

whiskey_199 said...

I was banned from LGF for pointing out the affair of the British Ballerina (living with and having a child by a Chinese-Cuban man) who was outed as a BNP member. Her reason for joining? It was the only organization serious about immigration.

While I do not like in any way the BNP, I can see it's growth as inevitable to the extent that no mainstream party will seize it's issues of: reaction against PC, being proud of the British Nation not ashamed of it, ending multiculturalism which amounts to worshipping every other culture but that of the West (and loathing British Culture especially), immigration legal or otherwise, and creeping Islamization.

These are all real issues along with crime celebrated not tolerated by the Conservative and Labor and Social Democrats that deeply affect people's lives. For a middle class Ballerina to join the BNP ought to be huge red flag that something seriously wrong is with British Society.

To the extent that Conservatives or the UK Independence Party take over the BNP's core issues they fade. To the extent that these issues are ceded to them they grow. Simple as that and true action against "Fascism" or White Racism or Anti-Semitism must be not "population replacement" and subjugation of the existing native population but out-competing the BNP the way a healthy lawn will choke out weeds.

Henrik said...

Actually, what CJ is perpetrating against us Europeans is a form of collective blood libel. It's ugly.

As for the UK, my bet is on the UK Indepencen Party to take over the issues that BNP feeds on, then let BNP fade into oblivion. I met the UKIP MP that now runs for mayor in London - really a great fellow. While he probably has zero chance of getting elected, he will be able to use his candidacy as a platform to force the other candidates to address serious issues.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Actually, what CJ is perpetrating against us Europeans is a form of collective blood libel. It's ugly.

I'm sure he or people with him would argue that we deserve it for being nazi jew haters or something. Gates has ascended to the rank of "propaganda" site in the eyes of some commentators over there.

The UKIP is a spent force already. Its leaders have taken a moderately successful party and reduced it to a petty squabbling shop in his bid to take down the tories. If they'd been fighting against the EU they wouldn't have run candidates in marginal tory seats, but would have acted strategically to bring down Labour instead.

NOw, that said, it should be possible to re-energise the party but only once the current leadership have been driven out. They're a bunch of idiots, frankly.

Of course it wouldn't make any difference. Over at t'other place I saw at least one person claiming that the BNP had for all intents and purposes already taken over UKIP so, if they do start to rise up in the polls again, it'll simply be a case of wheeling out the same "criticism" against them.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

his s/b "their". brain no worky good.

Jungle Jim said...

'Several prominent blogs are at it again with accusations against various European groups. Despite what The Australian newspaper claims, the British National Party did not participate at the meeting to establish “Cities against Islamization.”'

I agree completely. The news article about that meeting merely said that 'representatives of BNP were in attendance'. All it says is that they showed up. They did not organize the meeting, they were not invited, nor did they participate in any other way. And yet LGF is still claiming that Vlaams Belang has entered into an 'alliance' with them.

I posted my thoughts on this matter on the LGF comments. I am probably the only dissenter left with an active account on that blog. But my comments were completely ignored.

ENGLISHMAN said...

You all seem to set great store by democracy,until the BNP is mentioned.I would rather have democracy than its alternative,but you all seem to ignore the fact that our enemies,both administrations and islamo-fascist,do not care less about democracy.The lion will never lay down with the lamb,unless he wants to be eaten,but another lion will cause him to have some kind of respect.Some people dislike spiders,some people love thier country,this does not make them lesser that any-one else,and if one is truly committed to democracy,one must give equal weight to thier views ,we might dis-agree,but once we could accept thier views without witch hunts and slander,unfortunately these days politics is so hysterical and crude that now we are happy to burn any-one that thinks contrary ,and this is caused by isolation,induced by mobile phones and computers,and while we are seperate from one another,we have no political force,and the conscience of each man is sub-sumed into which-ever kind of tyranny is in vogue.

Epaminondas said...

Let me understand ..just to be sure.. you are claiming based on...??.. that the BNP just happened to show up?

Do you think that Rudy Giuliani, or Mitt, or MccCain would simply ignore flag waving Stormfront and CCC members who just happened to 'show up' at a border security fence building rally?

Again, if VB is SERIOUS as a non racist player, they should be filling the air with ..GET AWAY FROM US.

Are they?

All I see is this either ..BNP weren't REALLY REALLY there, or faced with a choice of Islamic imperialism and Shariah or outright racism, racism is not as bad.

This reasoning is a wrapped birthday present for the key practitioners of taqiyya. A gift to the Tariq Ramadan's, and Juan Cole's.

If claims of BNP not really really being there are correct, they can be morally run out of town on a rail.

Are they?

Calling Mr Dewinter ......

Hello Darkness my old friend.....gee what was the title of that song?

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Epa, it was an open press conference. Anyone can turn up to that sort of thing if they want.

Epaminondas said...

archonix, Let's stipulate to that for a moment ...
Fine, then, BLAST BNP TODAY as no part of this, Mr Dewinter, along with Alsace 1st and FPOE standing beside you.

Or will too many of your party 'base' feel you weak?

David Duke people would not show up un-commented on in the USA, as neither did Don Black of Stormfront here with Dr. Paul.

The LACK of utter rejection is beyond appalling.

Tariq is RUBBING HIS HANDS TOGETHER for this feast provided for him. Dewinter is the chef.

Do you believe they are that dumb?

Not me

Henrik said...

Crap, people are busy getting righteous and all worked up with strawman arguments about BNP, to the point where people who don't knock in the doors of BNP members on a daily basis are seen as traitors to the anti-Jihad efforts.

Really, Vlaams Belang has more important matters to look at, like running a major political party (25 % of the votes) than bothering about a tiny political party in a different country.

I think anti-BNP zealots can scream and stomp all they want, and make a real pest of themselves, yet get no benefit for either themselves, GoV or the war against Jihad.

Jungle Jim said...

Epamonidas:

I don't know for sure that BNP were there at all. If they were, the VB people might not have even been aware of it.

Back in 1980, one of the KKK groups endorsed Ronald Reagan's candidacy for the US presidency. But he had nothing to do with those scum. Just because they endorsed him did not make him a klansman nor a racist at all.

Epaminondas said...

Jungle Jim..yes indeed, and from NRO...

"A KKK chapter in Louisiana had scored some cheap publicity by endorsing Reagan in 1980, which endorsement Reagan immediately and forcefully rejected."

Calling Mr Dewinter......

Afonso Henriques said...

"So self-righteous blogs link approvingly to an organization which thinks they are dangerous and Islamophobic, and should probably be banned by law. The term “useful idiots” does come to mind."

It sure does...

I have adopted an essay:
Better a fascist/racist/nazi than a communist (it is to be said in the face of leftists who are less powerfull than you. i.e. who can not fired you but with whom one can not have a civilised conversation)!

PRCalDude said...

Epa,

How does it feel to be trapped back in Jim Crow America?

Henrik said...

OK, a couple points for Epaminondas and other stubborn BNP-bashers:

If you have a problem with what BNP says and does (something I'm merrily ignorant about anyway), please take the issue to .. BNP!

You may want to write them a polite letter, or you may want to ram their doors at night for being a 'stain on society' or whatever. Your choice.

Epaminondas, if you really want to pester DeWinter with this, GoV is probably not the right place. Sure, we have people here who has the email address of Mr. DeWinter. So what?

I pick my friends with caution and due dilligence. Once picked, I stick with them unless they do something utterly disgraceful and refuse to repent on it. The VB have performed excellently in this regard, they have more courage and integrity than just about any other political party in Europe. Which, in turn, makes them a favorite target of witchhunting, unfortunately.

They may join initiatives or form alliances or be photographed in a room with people who we don't like. So what? How many of our leaders have been photographed with evil dictators? That doesn't make them evil. Perhaps a little stupid, but not evil.

If we start to accept this guilt-by-association game, we can have no friends on the planet. I'm responsible for my actions, for the organisations I participate in and direct.

I am not directly responsible for the actions or statements of people I associate with. If they for some reason do something completely incompatible with my own views, I'll leave. But presenting crappy evidence and demanding all kinds of refutations cannot force me to abandon my friends.

I'm not responsible, in any sense of the meaning, for the actions or statements of the people or organisations they choose to associate with. If I were, I'd ultimately be responsible for everything evil that ever took place on this planet.

This is 'Reductia ad Absurdum', a classical way to show that your ponit of view doesn't make sense.

I think it has more meaning to return to our regular Islam-bashing, or our opponents will laugh their stomachs out over the barroom brawls we're having...

Queen said...

epa wrote:Tariq is RUBBING HIS HANDS TOGETHER for this feast provided for him. Dewinter is the chef.

Actually Tariq Ramadan is rubbing his hands together over the feast provided to him by Oyvind Strommen, who wrote all kinds of lovely things about Tariq Ramadan on his old blog, and who favors unlimited Muslim immigration into Europe, and who attacked Fjordman and tried to discredit him when Fjordman exposed the Muslim rape epidemic in Norway (which the Norwegian government was forced to finally confirm some while ago.)

Henrik said...

"Better a fascist/racist/nazi than a communist"

You sure you're able to tell them apart?

A couple clues:

Fascism ~= communism. They have common roots and are closely related, as Fjordman initially pointed out. If you are not clear about this, please read up on history. It's important.

Nazism ~= racism. They are closely related, too, and racism is the unique contribution of the nazis to the fascist movement, utterly disgracing it in the process.

I still think fascism is stupid. But it's different from nazism and racism, which are evil.

Afonso Henriques said...

Epaminondas,

"If VB is SERIOUS as a non racist player, they should be filling the air with ..GET AWAY FROM US.
The LACK of utter rejection is beyond appalling."

Please, try to get my point(s):

Vlaams Belang is a nationalistic Flemish party. If it is Nationalistic, it means that the party line is to be representing the people and the best interests of the people they belong to. Besides all else, in order to, in this case, be blessed with an indepndent state, or maybe join The Netherlands.

The people Vlaams Belang reprsent is the Flemish/Dutch people.

The Flemish/Dutch people is an European people.

European peoples are racially classified as Caucasians.
For being lighter skinned than other peoples, European peoples are generally reffered to as white.
The Flemish/Dutch people is a Germanic people, Germanic peoples are considered Indo-Euopeans or Aryan if you prefer, despite that last term is outdated.

The Flemish/Dutch are a people blended by race / common origins/ ethnicity.

They are Caucasian, white, Indo-European. They are geografically situated in Europe.

If Vlaams Belang stands for a pople of only one race, how can they be racist? There are no other race Flemish/Dutch people.

So the real question is,
why are you supporting a multicultural Europe?

Afonso Henriques said...

Henrik,

First, I do not agree much with that defenition but it does not matter.
The truth is, I am no expert in such qualifications. What I can say is that from those four concepts I prefer Fascism than Nazism than Communism than Racism.

It does not mean that I would like to live or support any of those.

For exemple, I see Putin as a litle fascist, but I prefer him to the European leaders left of centre (even if they claim being right wing).
Putin stays by its people that is the least a governor should do.
European (as if Russia was not European) politicians don't really care about their people, which I think disgracefull.

I coined that phrase and it is aimed to be shoot out when somebody acuses others of such now "loose terms" in order to demonyze its opponent.

Another phrase
"Not one of our great national heroes were leftie"

It is only about politics, and why? Because those of the left, don't seem to care about the people.

I hope I have made me understood.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Let me put this simply.

The BNP have not made any statements about attending or supporting this cities against islamisation press conference or the organisation, nor have they endorsed it. None of the officially represented groups made any reference to the BNP. No european newspapers have made any reference to the BNP. All we have is one australian newspaper article.

Why, then, should these people renounce the BNP for maybe being in the same room? Why should they care?

Seems this is a case of blowing something out of all proportion. AGAIN.

Henrik said...

Henriques, I stand by my assessment of the various ideologies, in agreement with Fjordman and referring to history, for which Fjordman has provided relevant sources.

Yes, it's new to me, too.

A fascist system is something I could live in, though I'd probably be a 'subersive element' in it :)

Putin's Russia is interesting. He's suspended democracy without entirely destroying it, opening the door for a full democracy later. My personal opinion is that it probably is the best that could happen to Russia these days, that a contiuation of the Yeltsin anarchy would have been much worse, and that when time is ripe, we will have to pick up the pieces from there.

They know what they have and what they're doing. The United States, on the other hand...

Somehow, liberty at the very individual level seems to be badly damaged in the US today. On a perfect private level, I might prefer to live in Russia over USA. Sure, it's not nearly as rich, and it's more dangerous, but the yoke of political correctness doesn't weigh remotely as heavily in Russia.

Epaminondas said...

Again ...take a look at the elegant express elevator to hell justifying white europe which all amounts to 'we can't help it', and accusations that I am a multiculturalist. Which btw, probably makes most Americans just that (excepting significantly, Stormfront and it's politer face, the CCC, and also Aztlan and the La Raza morons, who want another kind of exceptionalism).

It is a FAILURE for VB not to publicly eschew BNP. A few words and it's all KILLED, categorically regardless of this episode. Killed for the next 'blown out of proportion' episode.

If they didn't know then they know now about BNP being there, and that is if one rejects outright the australian news.

They (VB) don't care, and they tacitly WELCOME AND SUPPORT those who sympathize with what BNP wants, and directly with most (if not all) BNP ideals. The more confusion about just how close, the better.

You reject outright the Australian paper.

Apparently that is essential isn't it?

The tortuous gymnastics to make it ok are something to behold.

Apply that critical thought to this that is being applied to this multiculturalist stuck in Jim Crow times. If you only knew how really funny that is.

No minds will be changed to day, but when this comes up again, and as we can see IT WILL, remember.

Had Reagan NOT utterly condemned his support by the KKK it could not possibly have been blown out of proportion. By doing so he killed the entire episode in 30 seconds. When that occurred RR didn't know it, wasn't around, and had no clue about it...but he reacted UNERRINGLY in every aspect.

Dewinter? Holocaust deniers and racists (as Spencer dramatically shows) of the BNP

Henrik said...

Epaminondas, your scaremongering and unrestricted libel is, in my view, a violation of the PG-13 guidelines of this blog.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Ok now you're just being obtuse. They were not there. Multiple sources demonstrate that they were not there, not supporting, not endorsing, not anything. ONE source claims they were attending. ONE SOURCE.

You don't think the BNP would have made a fuss if they were actually attending this thing in any remotely official capacity? Wouldn't they be trumpeting it from the rooftops if they were taking part or even just endorsing the idea?

What you're demanding would be like Reagan renouncing a bunch of redneck racists in Alabama because some of them might have been at one of his speeches.

Epaminondas said...

Thus Henrik finally emulates the hated LGF? LOVERLY
If we cannot tolerate THIS level of dissent, ... what then?
I am a threat to order, eh Henrik?
Very disappointing.

My attitude has been noticed, Henrik?

Arch ..you assume it has BEEN demonstrated and accepted that BNP was not there.

I do not. Nor do some others.

All back to Dewinter and white europe...which remains uncontested.

Enough.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

My assumption is that there is only a single article claiming they were there, with no corroborating evidence. In contrast we have people who were actually at the meeting stating that they were not there and the BNP absolutely silent over something that they would normally publicise to the moon.

Bring more evidence than a single unnamed, unquoted source in an australian newspaper and I might start to believe you. PROVE your case.

PRCalDude said...

I hereby call on China to repudiate a Chinese China. Japan must repudiate a Japanese Japan. India must repudiate an Indian India. If they don't, they're just like the KKK or the Nazis.

Zonka said...

Can we get any more silly? Time to raise above the kindergarden-level squables!

Henrik said...

"Thus Henrik finally emulates the hated LGF?"

I'm calling you on libel, and now I have reason to do this again.

laller said...

The problem is NOT the BNP or VB or FN or SD or FPÖ or any other political party. The problem is that this "movement" has no generally accepted goals other than the lofty "counter-jihadism" and "counter-islamisation". If there are no goals, then there can be no strategy. If there are no goals and no strategy, how can you know who you can/should ally with, and who can't/shouldn't? If there are no goals and no strategy, how do you know where you're going? If there are no goals and no strategy, how do judge succes and failure, and how do you determine where and how to revise your approach?

The problem is that at the moment it's all so flimsy. One minute you can call mosques a sign of creeping islamisation, the next minute you can defend the rights of muslims to their faith as well as their right to remain in western countries. One minute you can call support for muslim calls to prayer a sign of rising dhimmification, the next you can defend the rights of muslims to their faith as well as their right to remain in western countries. One minute you can call muslim schoolchildren fighting for their right to wear the hijab, and support thereof, a sign of rising islamisation and dhimmification, the next you can defend the rights of muslims to their faith as well as their right to remain in western countries. And the list goes on and on.

What are the goals and what is the strategy? As long as the goals aren't more concrete, people will continue to claim the moral high ground because there are no strings attached. It's much more difficult to claim the moral high ground, when you have stated goals and have to formulate a strategy to attain said goals. It also allows for more rational and reasonable debate regarding the strategy.

I would like to encourage everyone, Gates of Vienna, Little Green Footballs, Jihadwatch/Robert Spencer, CVF and everyone else reading this, to try to formulate especially goals but also strategies for the "movement". Atleast then we have something to work from and with(I think some people are idealistic and don't base their ideas in reality). Untill then this "movement" will remain flimsy and nothing will be accomplished...

Regards

turn said...

Wow. Just...wow.

Ideological scuffles do not a winning movement make. It has always been necessary to ally with those one may not wish to, and looking for some standard of purity in potential alliances is foolhardy.

Observant Jewish parents would probably be strongly against their son marrying my daughter. That would not prevent me from siding with the Jewish man in the fight that is to come.

Point being--if you can't stand the very thought of people from groups like the BNP fighting by your side you will most likely be permanently out of the fight rather quickly. Partisan fighters' bullets can be aimed in the same direction as yours without 'compromising' your principles.

As to the correct placement of 'Nazi' in the political spectrum, I posted this a while back.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

The wft and eave of life. From a comment on that thread on Jihad Watch, I found this link on LGF, wherein Charles says this:

Strommen's article is interesting; I had to verify his claim about Oriana Fallaci's "Force of Reason." He says she cites three well-known antisemites/Holocaust deniers as examples of people being persecuted for anti-Islam writing, including the infamous Robert Faurisson -- without mentioning their sick ideologies.

And you know what? He's right. She does exactly that. It's on page 26 in my Rizzoli International edition of the book. The other two she cites are Erwin Kessler and Gaston Armand Amaudruz, and she says nothing about their repellent beliefs.

I had not noticed this when I first read the book, I admit. My impression of "Force of Reason" is that it was written in a very rushed way, almost feverishly. She was quite ill when she wrote it, and the charitable way to look at this is that she simply was going too fast to stop and explain the context.

But it is troubling, I have to admit.


He's turning against Oriana Fallaci. What in the h*ll is that man doing?

Afonso Henriques said...

Epaminondas,
I guess you have a problem because of the word white!
Well, no European is really white, if he/she is the more probable is that he/she is dead.

Try to surpress white and put in European.

It's not our fault that Europeans are whiter, well you can come here and paint some of us black.
Then, would it be ok, wouldn't it?
I haven't seen you criticise Mugabe or South African nationalistic agendas. Much more real than this proto-European resistance.

And yes, I stand for an European white Europe, as I stand for a black Africa and a japanese Japan.
Call me a Nazi, please, I am Hitler and I have just returned from the grave!

Henrik,
First of all I have to highlith the comment of Laller, of which I agree 100%.
I believe that with the rise of European Nationalism and all the extra-European movements taking place, we will assist to bloggers loke Baron turning more to the right, Conservatives like the Tories going right too and we will see "stormtroopers" and neo-nazis turning soft. Both groups will merge and will form a "new European right". I mean, in 10 15 years, after 2015.

Of that "New European Right" we can already see some members:
Fjordman;
The SVP from Switzerland;
Mself;
A Europeist pope more Pagan than Jew would be excellent, (a non white pope would destroy what remains of European's Christian faith. I know it would happen inconsciently in the mind of the believers, nothing to do with racism. I hope the next pope to be Italian!)

Vital issues to this dynamics will be essentially three:
The state of affairs in France, the moast targeted European country and a power so weak that I think the USA should invade because of its weapons of mass destruction;
The situation in South Eastern Europe, with the muslims/Turks/Kosovo, how will Serbs react, will someone there help them or not;
And the Russian advance, will Russia swallow Belarus and, at least part of, Ukraine? Will Russia be a super power again?

That is me making futurology. By the year 2012 things will get dirtier dued to extra-European causes. Islam and China will be much stronger and consolidated for exemple, and they will be hungry.

We will face a new dark era in Europe.

Now, the present:

"I stand by my assessment of the various ideologies, in agreement with Fjordman and referring to history, for which Fjordman has provided relevant sources.
Yes, it's new to me, too."

I have a different defenition. To me something right wing is something that goes with National pride, which is proud of National people/culture (Nazism, Fascism) goes along with tradition, etc. (Please don't get economics in the middle)
Whereas left is some desire to abolish what was built, to unite everybody no matter how and what, a despize for the pople/Nation/Culture and a special despize for "rules from the past".
For me left wing is the voice of the teenage rebel and the naugthy child inside us (Socialism, Comumnism, Anarchism, etc).

That is how I distinguish right from left and that is why I do not agree with Fjordman.

Revolutions from the left will get you free (from responsabilities) even if you get in a dictatorship (Cuba), a right wing revolution will never get you free, will make you even more responsable for your daily actions weather you finish up in a dictatorship (Talibans, Iran, Chile, Fascisms of South Europe in Portugal, Spain and Italy) or in a democracy (Ex-Yugoslavia, Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania).

I would be subversive under Communism, I would not have the balls to go against my people just because we were under fascism or Nazism. Though some situations...

Concearning Russia, I share your opinions.
I think Putin is the right way.
I would prefer living in Russia despite the U.S.A provides better conditions.
I can live with a "poor but proud" people with a soul and a sense of comunity rather than the U.S.A. lifestyle with little to no soul, America seems to artificial, too fabricated and too much fashionable for me to feel good.

I would really like that both Russia and the U.S. would stop playing revive the Cold War. And it's not because Europe is caught in the middle, it is because it is a fracticidal European war in a time where we can not afford that. Ask the Serbs in Kosovo!

Chalons said...

Alfonso, you said -

would prefer living in Russia despite the U.S.A provides better conditions.
I can live with a "poor but proud" people with a soul and a sense of comunity rather than the U.S.A. lifestyle with little to no soul, America seems to artificial, too fabricated and too much fashionable for me to feel good.


Hmmm. I see a heavy Hollywood/television influence in that attitude that I must rebut. How you live in America is up to you. Your lifestyle is your choice. It is not dictated to you. You are not 'stuck with' anything.

I know people who have completely bought into the corporate scene, and I know some who have completely rejected it and have homesteaded in
Alaska and everything in between. Seriously. That's the big difference about America. One lifestyle does not replace another here - it becomes an additional option.

Now if you are the type that just lets life happen to you, then I agree, America may not be the place for you. But American life is only as artificial as you want it to be.

lowandslow said...

Archonix wrote:
"He's turning against Oriana Fallaci. What in the h*ll is that man doing?"

If she'd have only renounced the BNP, VB, the KKK, etc. before she died, Charles wouldn't be so troubled.

Why people even read this nutjob anymore is beyond me. I don't even think he cares about the Islamic jihadist threat, it's all about childish blogwars and showing his moral superiority. Now he's going after dead people, all on the word of Strommen. Good grief.

Diamed said...

Jews are allowed a jewish state, africans are allowed african states, they drove out all the whites AND indians. Muslims drove out or killed all the jews and christians and hindus and zoroastrians in their lands, chinese are allowed to keep china for chinese, japan for japanese, no one criticizes mexico for keeping out guatamalans and its tough immigration rules.

Anyone who spends his entire day demanding whites and only whites must surrender their homelands to anyone who wants to come and take it is a RACIST. You just happen to be racist against whites, good for you. Aren't you proud.

I can see this debate is going to come sooner or later and the communists who for some reason oppose islam and the nationalists who genuinely love themselves will eventually have to split, it's absurd that even in the heart of the counter-jihad we have people coming in here and insisting we be properly PC, multicultural, pay our dues and tithes to diversity, etc.

Henrik said...

"I see a heavy Hollywood/television influence in that attitude that I must rebut."

For the record, I rarely watch anything out of Hollywood. Have better things to do, like going to Russia :)

I'm not trying to be anti-American, and am frequently struggling to defeat anti-American views. But I do see serious flaws coming out of the American political system, and reading "Liberal Fascism" I see elements parallel to fascism in the 20's (not 30's, mind you!).

Political correctness, while initially a benign problem, has grown to a point where it's difficult to voice dissent, and heresy to point out the dissent. Just watch the 'lynch mob' at the JW thread.

I'm just toying around with ideas, of course, but I am honestly concerned that the US today is sliding into a situation similar to the semi-fascist regime of Woodrow Wilson.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Don't know if anyone's still reading this thread, but t'other place has put up a new post about a klan meeting which features that lovely odins cross... only it's not quite the same as the one on DeWinter's bookshelf, but never mind.

Anyway, I saw it, and I remembered something; I've seen that identical cross on catholic priests in the past. I believe the Nazarenos occasionally wear a similar cross, and it appears in other catholic imagery as well.

There's an interesting page about its origins here, which refers to it as, amongst other things, an odins cross, solar cross, gamma cross and catholic cross. Don't tell the klan they're using catholic imagery, they might get mad...

Afonso Henriques said...

Chalons,
"Your lifestyle is your choice. It is not dictated to you."

No doubt. I was reffering to the mainstream society, not me or just one individual.

"Now if you are the type that just lets life happen to you, then I agree, America may not be the place for you."
As if it was different from other places... America is not that different. I will take it as critic to European Socialism, though.


Concearning to Holywood, it may be true, but it is just not only Holywood. Documentaries and News and the culture you people export imanes the same.

Laine said...

Alfonso Enriquez said: "For me left wing is the voice of the teenage rebel and the naugthy child inside us (Socialism, Comumnism, Anarchism, etc)".

Those naughty teens and children killed one hundred million of mostly their own citizens within living memory and locked up or otherwise repressed 6 times that number. Let us not succumb to the collective amnesia with which leftists have hypnotized too many.

The notion that Putin is good for Russia or the world at large supports the belief system that gave rise to the above abominations, the Time magazine way of thinking.

He is just the latest of Russian "strongmen" starting with the czars, maintained through bloodthirsty communist dictators to the nuclear arms brandishing Politburo to Putin the kleptocrat. The Russian "soul" is pickled in vodka (they now have the mortality rate of a third world banana republic with average longevity dropped into the 50's) and apparently requires a boot on its neck to feel at ease.

It is truly a quixotic notion that some posters here have that they would be better off for illusory reasons in Russia than the United States. The cure of course would be to spend time in Russia living as the Russians do. America has some warts. Russia is a wart.

But it is apparently a Teflon wart. Putin climbed to the top by pretty well exterminating Chechen Muslims to the vast approval of his electorate, had his opponents flagrantly assassinated both within and outside Russian borders and both he and ordinary Russians have escaped condemnation by both the Muslim and non-Muslim world while George Bush who does not assassinate his opponents is vilified.

Putin is nothing but an amoral thug, but a thug with money because of oil revenues.

On another issue, Diamed is absolutely right to point out the double standard: every race and ethnic group except European whites is allowed their own exclusive space, even when they fashion it through bloodshed. It would appear that at least cultural genocide of European whites is well underway and the world will be poorer for it.

Dymphna said...

A reader, BR, says he can't post his comment -- a blooger bug, I guess. I offered to put it up for him. Here's what he sent:

Laurence Auster Comments on this topic:

...At the culminating point of his article Spencer has reverted to liberal rather conservative principles. Instead of speaking of defending Western civilization, or the historic cultures and nations of Europe, from the Islamic threat, he speaks of defending a "positive vision of defense for the human rights of all people." For Spencer, as always, the bottom line is universal liberal rights, not the concrete civilization and nations of which those rights are but one aspect--and, indeed, not the most fundamental aspect. Our civilization existed for a thousand years before it embraced the modern notion of liberal rights. Furthermore, without those particular, concrete Western societies to uphold those rights, the rights would instantly disappear, since it is only the West that truly believes in individual rights. Furthermore, as the British National Party understands and Spencer does not, to maintain those societies, their respective historic peoples must be preserved as the cultural majority, since without a sufficient degree of ethnic and cultural homogeneity, no society can even exist. This is why BNP's ethnicity-conscious defense of Britain and Europe is morally legitimate, even from a liberal point of view. [emphasis added]

Kafir_Kelbeh said...

Good grief. As someone who lived in Russia, there's no way in H*ll I'd live there over the US. I'll take my freedom, warts and all.

Their "universal health care" involves throwing bloody bandages under the stairwell, and providing no pain medication or crutches. Their "freedom of speech" can get you killed, and certain books are not allowed in your home.


BTW, Epaminondas,

If you'd waited a day or so, rather than jumping all over this one "news source", you'd have seen this:

Email from Vlaams Belang regarding Cities Against Islamisation Charter

My advice is to wait for more information next time.

Kafir_Kelbeh said...

Epaminondas,

Good...I see you posted over at JW.

Kafir_Kelbeh said...

Epaminondas,

Good...I see you posted over at JW.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

I do like that Spencer hasn't tried to spin the e-mail and simply posted it. Sometimes these things speak for themselves.

Charles? Your serve.

nikolai said...

As an ex-leftie (union not PC) I see signs all the time of the PC wall cracking slightly, mainly because of the realization that growing sharia influence is lethal news for jews/gays/feminists/libertarians.

PC individuals from those groups are starting to have second thoughts but they are still drenched in general PC ideology.

It's good that they are breaking from the wall and possibly adding to the drip of information feeding through to the voters but because of their PC past they won't make firm allies.

Any patriotic or nationalist party from a "white" nation will look fascist to them even if it isn't. You can't win with those people long-term because of their obsession with race and their transcendent superiority complex. Best to ignore them imo.