Saturday, January 19, 2008

A Network of Arms

Regular readers will remember El Inglés, who contributed a memorable scenario here last November about the possibility of a Danish civil war.

El Inglés has returned to talk about something completely different: firearms. It’s a subject that’s close to his heart, and he wants to reach out to Gates of Vienna readers (many of whom have previously shown an interest in the topic) with his ideas and suggestions.

Readers are invited to offer him feedback in the comments:


Hi Baron,

I thought I would e-mail you about something unrelated to the stuff we normally talk about. Though my benighted homeland is too foolish to allow its citizens to own firearms these days, I have developed an interest in them over the years. Given that I intend to continue pursuing this hobby as and when I have the opportunity, it occurred to me that it might be a good idea to try and develop a way of sharing these experiences with others.

A gun collectionShooting can be an expensive hobby, and those interested in pursuing it outside their own countries due to domestic firearms restrictions will find it to be all the more so. This is one of the reasons why it could be valuable to have direct access to a network of people with similar interests. For example, if a citizen of, say, the Netherlands were to be interested in learning to shoot a rifle in Finland during those long summer days, it might be advantageous for them to be able to draw on the experiences of others who had already done so, instead of having to plough through a dozen Finnish hunting sites. Similarly, if a British citizen were interested in learning to shoot handguns in the US, the considerable logistical and financial difficulties involved could surely be ameliorated somewhat if people with relevant experience, contacts or interests could pool it and make it mutually accessible

I mention this to you because of your extensive network of European contacts. There is probably a correlation between concern about the types of issues that GoV addresses and an interest in firearms. Some fraction of that interest will be on the part of people who live in countries where access to firearms is restricted. I know from my own experience just how expensive and time-consuming it can be to organize shooting trips abroad.

A few points bear mentioning here. Given the opprobrium sometimes directed at shooters by the ranks of the uninitiated, it might be the case that some would like to keep their participation in this network as low-key as possible. It seems to me that this would be very easy to achieve. The network, after all, would be completely informal. It would have no name, no leader, no chairman of the board, no bank account, no hierarchy, no membership cards, and no funny handshakes. A few hypothetical examples displaying different degrees of coordination will serve to illustrate the point.

1. A British citizen decides to go to Finland for his summer holiday. He decides that a week visiting the lakes capped with another week of shooting/hunting would be the perfect vacation. The lakes are visited easily enough, but how best for someone with no experience of shooting, hunting, or Finnish to organize the second part? Our Briton e-mails a couple of Finnish contacts, and gets some replies a couple of days later telling him about some Finnish hunting companies that might be appropriate for his needs. Having got in contact with one of them, our would-be shooter fires various rifles throughout his hunting week, and flies back to the UK with elementary competence in rifle marksmanship and handling.
2. A Dutch citizen finally decides that the time has come for him to truly become a man — he simply must fire a .44 Magnum. Not easily done in the Netherlands, though. What to do? By chance, he makes the acquaintance of a resident of Maine, in the US, whose gun collection includes every handgun known to man. The conversation turns to scratching that .44-sized itch, upon which our man from Maine suggests that our Dutchman head up that way if he’s ever in the US. A couple of months later he does so, and spends a week scratching a variety of itches, some chambered for .44 Magnum, some chambered for .45 ACP, some firing buckshot instead.
3. Ten bored Flemings decide to escape the winter dreariness by heading off to the Holy Land to see what all the fuss is about. Before they go, they make contact with some proud Israeli gun owners who tell them that, should they be interested, there are plenty of opportunities in Israel to learn to handle firearms. After spending a couple of days seeing the sights, they meet up with their new acquaintances in Tel Aviv and head on down to the Negev to do some shooting. They spend two weeks burning through a couple of thousand dollars worth of ammunition each, emerging with a more than elementary understanding of handgun and rifle shooting. Those of them who were sufficiently interested also spent time learning a bit about how to hit targets at 300 yards or more, and what equipment would be required to do so.

In this manner, people could, in principle, shoot completely informally, without having to bear the expense of learning with professional instructors, if they could meet people of like mind via the internet. There are plenty of top class training facilities in the US, but many require you to bring your own firearms and have your own transportation, whilst charging hundreds of dollars a day. I do not doubt that they provide good value for money, but you still have to have the money, and not all of us will.

All of which leaves unaddressed the question of how these contacts would be made. I propose to set up a modest, low-key blog, to which I will begin posting observations based on my own meagre, but growing, experience of firearms. You would then (assuming you were interested, of course) post a link to it on GoV, and interested readers there could check it out. It would not have a great deal of content to begin with, if ever, but that would not really be the point. The point would be that anyone interested in being a part of this network, on either side (gun-deprived or gun-providing) could then e-mail me with as much or as little information about themselves, what they wanted, what they needed, or what they had to offer, as they deemed appropriate. Assuming they consented, I could post anything they sent me on the site. I could also maintain a database of interested parties and act as a conduit for people to get in contact with each other. This second role would hopefully become redundant after a while, as different parts of the network made contact with each other without going through me.

Given that there will undoubtedly be those who see some nefarious political motive underlying this plan, it might be wise to ask ourselves now just how we would try to minimize the risk of infiltration and/or exposure by those of malign intent. The following points spring to mind:
- - - - - - - - -
1. All participants should feel free to remain anonymous to the extent that they feel appropriate, on the Internet, in person, or in whatever other context.
2. All participants should feel free to provide feedback on their experiences with other participants, be it good, bad, or indifferent, for communication on the blog as and when necessary. This would be an anti-infiltration mechanism, not a ranking mechanism.
3. It might be advisable to have some sort of explicit screening system, whereby the only people allowed to give/ask for contact information at first would be people who could be vouched for my certain trusted readers of GoV. In time, those so vouched for could then vouch for others, and so on. Note that the easiest way to undermine a network of this nature would be to flood it with bogus participants, filling it up with dead nodes that eventually prove to be inactive. The flip side would be that nodes that have proven themselves active can be attached greater weight in the validation process, and will hopefully themselves provide a superstructure of great reliability.

Anyway, Baron, I don’t know whether this is the kind of thing you would have any interest in. But there is more to life than fretting about Islam! Sometimes you just have to forget about all that nasty stuff, right?

— El Inglés


I like this idea because it’s another example of a low-cost distributed network, one that could help gun enthusiasts everywhere gain training and experience without breaking any laws.

As soon as El Inglés starts his international firearms blog, I’ll link to it here at Gates of Vienna.

43 comments:

Zenster said...

I think this is an absolutely brilliant idea. Even if a person does not own a gun, knowing how to operate one still remains an essential skill. If you are attacked by somebody carrying a gun and manage to disarm them, it is imperative that one knows how to safely operate the weapon now in your possession. It can mean the difference between life and death.

A splendid analogy is knowing how to drive a stick shift automobile. I cannot tell you how many times I have had people tell me—most usually women—that they only drive automatic transmission vehicles. I then point out in case of disaster or emergency it may prove critical that one knows how to operate a manually shifted car, if only to escape capture by a criminal or outrun a forest fire. It could even be as simple as driving to hospital a friend who has collapsed behind the wheel of his own stick shift car.

The same applies in knowing how to change a tire. Asked about this, one girlfriend of mine replied, "I always have AAA (American Automobile Association) emergency coverage." I gently tried to explain how a tow truck cannot always reach you in time of need nor quickly enough to prevent a criminal from taking advantage of your being stranded. I asked her if her father had ever shown her how change a flat tire and she smugly replied, "He never got one, ever."

Sure enough, on our way to a concert, we had a puncture (in her car, no less) and I had the tire changed in 15 minutes flat (so to speak). Thereby missing not one note of the show. Waiting 30 minutes for roadside assistance would have presented an entirely different outcome. Rest assured that I showed her how to set the handbrake before starting work, loosening the lug nuts before lifting the car and using a star pattern to cinch back down the spare.

Be it driving a stick shift or changing a tire both are prime examples of skills one must always have in reserve for times of emergency. Safely shooting a gun is another one of these abilities. El Inglés deserves much praise for originating this concept. Having shot everything from .22 varmit rifles to .45 handguns and a .50 caliber BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle), like the one you see Rambo toting around, I can only say that it is more than a little reassuring to not feel any fear when handling all types of bangsticks.

gun-totin-wacko said...

Sounds interesting to me. One of my concerns was already answered in the original post- what to do about those folks who act unreliable in some manner.

I hope people can make suggestions and comments about weaponry also. I have some ideas about gun types and use, which I'd be willing to share...

PRCalDude said...

Good idea, Ingles. I've taken about thirty hours of tactical shotgun training. I don't qualify as an instructor by any means, but mine is good and well known in CA and AZ. I'll supply the gun and training for anyone interested. Shotguns are the best thing for social work inside of 30 yards.

btw, I'm still working on my design.

Jungle Jim said...

I will be happy to participate and show any decent freedom-loving man or woman who wants to visit the USA how to fire a shotgun. Like the previous posted said, there's nothing better for close-range combat.

Anonymous said...

Great idea. Besides what we all can do individually for visitors from Europe, there are decent NRA seminars on "Personal Protection" and their "Refuse to Be a Victim" classes which, I am sure, would accept a group booking.

mastrbloata said...

You'll definately want to be visiting www.glocktalk.com

no2liberals said...

It sounds like an excellent networking idea. Of course, there will always be some nefarious group or person, that will try and create a problem for a network like this, but it can be dealt with, if El Ingles has the time and is committed to it.
I fired my first shotgun when I was six years old, and grew up hunting and shooting. I later was a military policeman, and was involved in Match Service competition. One can gain a great deal of confidence, by becoming competent with firearms. The ability to focus, clear your mind of all concerns, and make your universe no larger than a small black circle, for just a little while, is very beneficial, and translates into other aspects of your life, where greater focus is useful.

Zenster, pardon my correction, but the BAR is chambered for the 30.06 round, and not a .50. The weapon most associated with Rambo, is the venerable M-60, which is a belt fed weapon, chambered for the 7.62NATO round.

As for the proponents of the shotgun in CQB, I agree it is very effective. I keep a Winchester Defender in my safe, with a half-full magazine tube, ready to go. But in most close quarters work, a shotgun, even with a short barrel, can be difficult to maneuver, especially if you are trying to peer around a corner. I keep my trusty Colt 1911a1, by my bed at night, right next to my one million candle power flashlight. Both are excellent weapons, especially in the dark. The advantage of the .45ACP, besides being the best man stopper round in a combat/defensive weapon, is that it is subsonic, and won't shatter your ear drums in a confined area. It is much easier to maneuver around corners and be able to fire, in an enclosed area.
Generally, I'm a firm believer in the notion that a handgun is for fighting your way to a rifle or shotgun, but not in a confined area, such as a home or a car.

And now, a video of Daddy's little girl.
I'll bet she's a Texas girl.

Paul Green said...

Some years ago, when I was working as a gunsmith at a dealership that got a lot of police trade-ins, I enountered a little poem pasted to the inside of a box containing a 7.65mm Walther PP:

Nimmst eine Waffe du zur Hand,
lasst Vorsicht walten und verstand,
denn Leichtsinn bringt im Augenblick
oft aller schlimmstes Missgeschick.
Und selbst wenn Sie nicht ist geladen,
ziel damit nie auf Kameraden!


Which, with the aid of a dictionary and my high-school German, I translated as:

When you take a weapon into your hand,
let caution and intelligence be your master,
for foolishness oft brings, in a flash,
the ultimate disaster.
And even when it holds no ammunition,
never point it at another's position!

It behooves anyone unfamiliar with firearms to learn this and take it to heart.

eatyourbeans said...

The US is the logical holiday destination for this particular recreation, but we need to build an infrastructure: Where to go, where to stay, where to learn, etc. Marketing to be done by word of mouth.

Ideally, there'd be "vacation" packages to every region of the US. I'm thinking many of us Americans would be interested in close-by weekend getaways too. I would.

Wanted: people who know who's who around the country, and people who know the travel industry.

Who'd have thought we'd we'd being going into the tourism business!

no2liberals said...

Any that want, from the U.S. or abroad, can attend the Knob Creek Kentucky Machine Gun Shoot, in April or October, each year.
Here is a video of the Saturday night firepower event.
Friendly, helpful people, that would be glad to share their knowledge and expertise, along with more fun than one can imagine.
Happiness is a belt-fed weapon.

Homophobic Horse said...

Well seeing as though you have pasted this on the internet you may as well assume you have already been utterly compromised. For that reason assume the police have a record on every single action you take.

Also, the comparisons with Jihadi training camps are obvious.

Afonso Henriques said...

Baron, sorry for this off topic information but its now 20:00 in Portugal.

The opening news concearns the story of two pakistanis who are wanted by conspiring to make a terrorrist atack in Portugal.
His fellow muslims were cought up in Spain, they were planning to atack Spain and some say the United Kingdom.

I tought the GoV community would want to retain this information.

El said...

homophobic horse:

'Well seeing as though you have pasted this on the internet you may as well assume you have already been utterly compromised.'

Compromised how? What do you mean, exactly? Compromised by who? MI5? Hizb-ut-Tahrir? Al-Qaeda? Operationally speaking, what has been compromised and how? I have advocated only legal activity, activities that are engaged in thousands of times every day without difficulty in the relevant countries. Be specific.

'For that reason assume the police have a record on every single action you take.'

What country do I live in? What continent do I live in? Do you know? Which police force are you referring to? Am I under surveillance? Physical, technical, or both? Am I being staked out?

'Also, the comparisons with Jihadi training camps are obvious.'

Let's assume they're not. Make them explicit and we will see how obvious they actually are. I have advocated learning to shoot. Is this all they do in jihadi training camps? Is learning to shoot a rifle in Sweden the legal equivalent of learning to build suicide bomber belts in Pakistan?

El said...

In response to more meaningful comments, I agree that America may well be the best place all-round for what I propose. It would be great to develop something in other countries as well, but the advantages of the States are clear.

I will be putting up some more initial posts on the new blog tonight, enough to get things rolling. Then, hopefully, those who are interested can continue the debate over there. Including homophobic horse, if he can shake off his surveillance team for long enough.

Zenster said...

No2Liberals: the BAR is chambered for the 30.06 round, and not a .50. The weapon most associated with Rambo, is the venerable M-60, which is a belt fed weapon, chambered for the 7.62NATO round.

Thank you very much for the correction. If not the correct caliber, what I remember best was the ability to dramatically redistribute a hillside's landscaping near the ghost town of Bodie, Nevada solely by twitching my trigger finger.

I also agree with you very much that for home defense a handgun is the only way to go. Swinging around a long-barreled firearm in close quarters is a nonstarter. There still remains much debate over using either a shotgun or even a .45 indoors as both can penetrate walls and injure sheltering loved ones. I seem to recall that a .38 is more suited to indoor work. Either that or going with sub-sonic rounds. I'm sure there are others who are more-well-versed that can clarify on this important topic.

One question for the sidearm pros: Have semi-automatics finally become reliable enough (i.e., jam-proof), whereby they rival revolvers? I much prefer the smaller form factor and extra round capacity of an automatic but insist upon reliable performance in an emergency.

Finally, machine guns and stuff that goes bangity-bang-bang are nice but the program that El Inglés is proposing would confer far greater benefits by training people with weapons that they are likely to encounter.

Let's face it—in European countries where firearms are tightly controlled—a far more likely scenario whereby citizens come into possession of firearms (other than hunting rifles or shotguns), is in the case of societal breakdown where military weapon lockers have been breached and the public has assumed the responsibility of defending itself.

Stateside training centers would do well to specialize in providing education about the military hardware indigenous to each given European nation and NATO weapons as well. This is especially so for handguns but also the case for semi-auto rifles as well. Knowing how to properly operate police weaponry would be a secondary alternative worthy of consideration in this case.

Allow me to make something very clear:

I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE PUBLIC'S SEIZURE OF MILITARY OR POLICE WEAPONS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

My entire premise is based upon a situation of far greater emergency when national law enforcement and even military response has broken down or come up short. To say the very least, it is a very gloomy prospect that such a state of affairs is even being discussed much less a foreseeable occurrence. That said, only fools and idiots would refuse to recognize how current conditions on the Continent are spiraling out of control. It is almost as if the EU has this sort of societal collapse as its specific goal.

El said...

I will second what zenster said about concentrating on the sort of weapons likely to be available in European countries. It would be helpful if European readers could post information about firearms laws in their respective to allow us to get a better idea if what that would mean.

I suspect that shotguns will be relatively available (whatever that means), and also highly effective in many self-defence scenarios. Hunting rifles will also be available in large numbers in some Northern European countries, and perhaps in others too. Handguns would be much trickier.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

zenster: "My entire premise is based upon a situation of far greater emergency when national law enforcement and even military response has broken down or come up short."
I hate to rain on the parade but that is an unlikely scenario. More likely the "resistors" will be designated as the "terrorists" and be suppressed by the agents of the state. In other words:
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

1389 said...

GOV readers will recognize Foehammer as being quite a defender of the Second Amendment.

Foehammer's blog is still down. Here's a statement from him:

Experiencing difficulties beyond my control

I've also posted links to all of the Ezra Levant videos, together with links to the Mo-toons and to Michelle Malkin's Mo-Toons blogburst:

Ezra Levant Takes Down Canadian "Human Rights" Commission

Spence said...

Excellent idea, I've been a lurker here for several months and would also love to contribute, unfortunately I'm stationed overseas and can't have any of my personal firearms. However, if this network kicks off and maintains momentum after I rotate to someplace stateside, I'll be sure to provide some sort of contact information.

Zenster, as far as semi-automatic pistols go, they are plenty reliable. A good rule of thumb for them is that the more reliable they are the less accurate they tend to be. This is due to their nature as machines, the more accurate they are, the tighter the machining tolerances get. Thus, small bits of debris can cause problems more easily, likewise the opposite of this is true. However, they are still quite accurate, accurate and reliable enough to be trusted by armed forces worldwide. Just keep them clean, it's easy enough (in a dire emergency just run clean water through it). There are many other factors too, but those are more nuanced, some guns 'prefer' certain types of ammunition and it will vary from gun to gun within the same brand and even the same model.

Another thing I want to bring up is Kalashnikov rifles (ak-47's etc.) Probably the most common rifle in the world, I think it would be wise for whoever is going to contribute to get one (as is possible legally and financially) for the benefit of those we seek to help. Besides, it's a great excuse to get a new rifle. :D They are available in semi-auto configurations and can comply to the laws in most states.

Jungle Jim said...

To Zenster and No2liberals. I will admit that I have never been in a firefight in close quarters or anywhere else. Have either of you?

But what I have done is shot hundreds of woodcock, grouse, and quail in thick woods over Springer Spaniels, with a shotgun with 28 inch barrel. You generally don't have much room to manouver and don't have time to swing through the bird. Generally all you have time to do is point the gun and fire.

Handguns are notoriously inaccurate, even at close range. I recall seeing a film of an actual firefight between a policeman and another man. They fired at each other from almost point-blank range several times, and every shot missed.

But I am interested in learning more about this subject. I keep a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buckshot handy, and I have often wondered what would happen if I ever had to use it.

Spence said...

Jungle Jim, please don't take this as a flame to your comment about handgun accuracy, but the problem in that shootout scenario is the shooters. Ase you said pistols aren't accurate at longer ranges, but at 25 yards and closer they are in fact pretty accurate. The trick is using your sights, which is the most forgotten principle when in a fire fight. I'm a veteran of the Iraq war, and have been in a firefight. Only one though, I'm not rambo or anything, and it was at a fairly long range. However, I've done quite a bit of training when it comes to shooting and shooting on the move, and on most weapons I've used a lack of accuracy comes from the shooter. Hence the cops and the bad guy not hitting anything.
For proof of accurate pistol shooting, check out videos from IPSC matches. I only wish to be as accurate as some of those guys (and gals).

the doctor said...

As a gun loving Brit with a shed load of rifles and shot guns I was delighted when my son moved to the U.S. Great , I thought , I can buy a 44, 357, 9mm, 22 , handguns or even several of each and leave them with him and visit regularly . Where did he move to..... Chicago , oh damn!!!

Zenster said...

El: Handguns would be much trickier.

Which is why I emphasize the usefulness of training on military and law enforcement issued sidearms. They are the most likely types to be encountered under the conditions being considered here.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ: I hate to rain on the parade

Then why are you doing it? Negativism and nihilistic attitudes only contribute to the success of our enemies. If you do not have any constructive criticism to offer, what exactly are you bringing to the party?

... but that is an unlikely scenario.

I think that more than a few people would be rather quick to disagree with you. Europe is headed straight towards either civil war or genocide. The EU is gnawing away at the foundations of liberty and common people everywhere are losing their respect for such elitist rule.

More likely the "resistors" will be designated as the "terrorists" and be suppressed by the agents of the state.

In the scenario being considered, the state will largely have ceased to exist. More likely, the "agents" you mention will be viewed as being in league with the enemy and treated accordingly.

Spence: as far as semi-automatic pistols go, they are plenty reliable. A good rule of thumb for them is that the more reliable they are the less accurate they tend to be. This is due to their nature as machines, the more accurate they are, the tighter the machining tolerances get.

Thank you for the good explanation. So, from this I have to assume that the much-beloved Glock represents the best of both worlds. Which other semiautomatic handguns are the least finnicky whilst still providing a decent degree of accuracy?

My interest comes from two angles. The first priority is home protection and that calls for a combination of decent accuracy and reliability. Second: I am also interested in assembling a weapons collection that will harden the average household in more general terms. Therefore, I'd like to use a common caliber and round-type wherever possible in the majority of pieces. Obviously, a shotgun will fall outside of that requirement.

Another thing I want to bring up is Kalashnikov rifles (ak-47's etc.) Probably the most common rifle in the world, I think it would be wise for whoever is going to contribute to get one (as is possible legally and financially) for the benefit of those we seek to help.

Agreed in spades. After all, this is most likely going to be the weapon we strip from our dead enemies [grin]. Also, just in sheer numbers produced it represents a common denominator. I also hear that it one of the most low-maintenance weapons ever produced, which carries with it some undeniable virtues.

Jungle Jim: I have never been in a firefight in close quarters or anywhere else. Have either of you?

Nope, but it still stands to reason that a shotgun is difficult to wield indoors. Plus the point remains that it can penetrate walls and kill loved ones. I've seen this discussed at numerous other fora and the cumbersome, indiscriminate nature of shotguns is mentioned repeatedly by a number of extremely well-versed people.

Personally, I like No2Liberals philosophy "that a handgun is for fighting your way to a rifle or shotgun". Rather a sensible approach if you ask me. If your handgun has not already solved the problem it should at least help you obtain a more functional solution.

Paul Green said...

Back in the last century, I staged a "fun shoot" at one of our monthly combat pistol club matches -- that being the format for problems unlikely to come up in an actual defensive situation.

The challenge was simple: three steel humanoid silhouette targets, hinged at the bottom; range, 100 yards. Fastest shooter to knock them all down -- starting from the leather -- wins.

Most of us were using 1911s in .45 ACP and going to prone during the draw. I cleaned my three in 24 seconds and thought I was pretty hot. Then the next shooter (the winner) stepped to the line and cleaned his in eight seconds flat.

That was a while ago, but I can still stay on an IPSC silhouette at 100. It's a simple matter of holding high. Accordingly, do not make rash assumptions about the supposed inaccuracy of handguns at anything but short range. In the immortal words of Sportin' Life, "It ain't necessarily so."

no2liberals said...

Zenster
Over penetration is always a concern, in home defense, as well as a miss and the round exits a window and hits an innocent person. Which is why my .45 has a magazine loaded with frangible rounds, and the other half loaded mags have hollow points(Hydra-Shoks) and FMJ's. The frangibles expend all of their energy shortly after impact, and cause devastating wounds, without any fear of over penetrating the perp or a wall or a window.
As for reliability, yes, modern semi-autos are reliable, but Murphy's Law is also present. One common mistake people make with semi-autos is, they load the magazines to full capacity, and leave them that way for extended periods of time, compressing the mag spring, which damages it, and causes malfunctions, as well as the rounds becoming stuck together because of the anaerobic condition that exists with the lubricants used to load the ammo. I knew a cop that had functioned thousands of rounds through his semi, without a malfunction, until he needed it. He was nearly killed before he got the malfunction cleared and shot the criminal. It comes down to training, if one isn't motivated enough to train, train, train, and train some more, then a semi isn't for them. Nothing wrong with a revolver, and is what I carried for years as a policeman. While the movies depict these endless scenes, where hundreds of rounds are fired, the average number of rounds fired in a shooting, whether it is a criminal act or law enforcement, is 2.8 rounds per incident. Most situations a revolver can handle, it's when a reload is needed, that it becomes a problem.

Spence makes a good point about the AK, the most commonly available rifle in the world, in all it's iterations.

Jungle Jim
First of all, yes I have, I have been shot at, I have shot at, and I have shot some very mean men.
I also grew up with long barreled shotguns shooting upland game birds, as well as water fowl.
I do have to take exception with your assertion that handguns are inaccurate, they are not. What happens with handguns is, the shorter the barrel, the shorter the sight radius, which means the slightest misalignment will produce a wider miss, than with a long barreled weapon. Which is why I prefer the Colt 1911a1, as it has the ideal grip angle, size, and shape for my hand. I can place my trigger finger in a straight line along the frame, and point at a target as if I were pointing my finger at the target, and check the sights, and they are nearly perfectly dead on. Granted, I have more years shooting than some, and have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds over the years. Once again, it is training and familiarity that is the key, and what El Ingles is focusing on for the uninitiated.
I've seen this guy pop a balloon at several hundred yards with a snub-nosed .38Special. Notice he always uses his sights.
BTW, take that 00Buck out of your shotgun, and replace it with #7Birdshot, the Buck will penetrate walls, very easily, while the #7 will most certainly stop anyone within 20 yards, and make quite a mess doing it.

Paul Green
Some of those guys in IPSC are space aliens, I'm convinced, as mortal man shouldn't be able to shoot that clean and fast.

livfreerdie said...

In police gun battles, they are just as worried as the perp. The adrenaline, the fight or flight struggling with his sense of duty and the basic fact humans really don't like killing humans(see On Killing) and the rising barrel after each shot of a 14 round magazine means you are probably going to miss.

As taught by the USMC on an old Colt 1911A1, lock your wrist in line with your forearm, grip the pistol correctly and wherever your forearm is pointed the rounds will follow that path, up to a point. Also, "double tap", don't empty the magazine.

Tom

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

Zenster, I apologize for "sounding " negative. I am a retired law enforcement officer (Los Angeles County) and yes I have been in a fire fight with a bad guy who had shot at me on several previous occasions. The result of the fire fight was my being booked into a California jail after I reported it to the local "law". His weapon: a semi auto unknown carbine which was "prohibited" to him as he is an ex con. My weapon: S&W mod 66 3" revolver at 80'. My point is that when the chips fall you cannot rely on the "justice" system. Also please note my closing statement: ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! I will translate for you as these were the words of king Leonidas in reply to Xerxes' demand of the Spartans at Thermopylae to "Deliver up your arms". Come and take them.

Zenster said...

No2Liberals, I like your mixed round strategy and thank you for explaining the common failure mode problem with semiauto magazines. It makes perfect sense.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ: Thank you for clarifying.

anon said...

Can anyone shed some light on the legal aspects of this proposal? Speaking of the U.S., I thought that non-citizens legally cannot possess firearms.

no2liberals said...

livfreerdie
Citing the Killology Institute, and the excellent work they do is important.
While what El Ingles is attempting is invaluable for those that may have no experience with firearms at all, trying to explain the transition to a warrior, and the psychological cost of killing, could(and probably should) require a separate thread to work with.
Only the most maladjusted among us find it easy or desirable to harm or kill others, so the preparation for that possibility requires a level of training that could possibly turn some away from crossing the threshold into the shooting world.
For those that have never approached the topic, and what Tom will certainly understand, being a marine, is the mindset one has to develop, in order to pull the trigger when the time comes. Without the proper mindset, the best trained target shooter in the world will fail to fire at the proper moment, he/she will freeze. To hesitate is to perish, in a kill or be killed scenario, yet one has to know when it is a good shoot or a no shoot situation. One has to have the proper mindset, and the training to go with it, to live another day, and to live with the knowledge and the feelings of shooting another person.
One of the best examples of the proper mindset, is an old story about the American West figure, Wild Bill Hickok. It was claimed that he wasn't the fastest on the draw, though he was fast. It was said he wasn't the most accurate shot, though his accuracy was certainly good. What made Wild Bill such a successful pistolero, and a man-killer, was the fact that he knew he was going to kill you when you were still thinking about it.

Zenster, welcome.
Also, there are many other factors that can cause a malfunction, that is one, and one cause I find that many have made, without thinking of the crucial role the spring makes in proper functioning.
In fact, there are so many tiny springs involved with firearms, that most never think of. Some people will store a weapon with the firing pin in the fire position,compressing a very tiny spring. Always release the tension on springs, whether it is in a magazine, a magazine tube, or on the firing pin.
Another common problem associated with semi-autos is, the extractor on most semis is designed to capture the rim of the brass casing as it is stripped off of the magazine, as the round is chambered. I've seen some people place a round in the chamber, and then release the slide lock, chambering the round. What happens is, the extractor claw is damaged, and rounded off or bent, failing to properly extract spent casings.
Proper care, which includes proper handling, and maintenance, is something one has to be diligent with. One's life could depend on it.

anon
While I can't address the legal issues involved with Euro countries, I can address the last part. Yes, it is illegal to own/possess a firearm if you are not a citizen, but renting one at a firing range, or firing a friends weapon doesn't qualify as possession.

Paul Green said...

no2liberals:

That match took place a long time ago, before IPSC got overrun with obsessives who made a mockery of its practicality. The guys in my club weren't weren't space aliens, just ordinary Westerners who liked to shoot and practiced a lot -- though I have to admit Carl's eight-second performance that day was one of the finest shooting feats I've ever seen.

As to Wild Bill Hickok, while he was indeed a deadly fighter I don't know that I'd agree that he was one of the best examples of the proper mindset. There is such a thing as shooting faster than you can think, and that is too fast. This brought Hickok to grief on Oct. 5, 1871, when he killed a fellow officer he'd mistaken for an adversary. The particulars are here.

Leo Hollandicus said...

This article is based on the fallacy that gun ownership is forbidden in the European countries mentioned in it (Britain, The Netherlands and Flanders), when is fact it isn't. Gun ownership is heavily regulated, but not forbidden.

I don't know the details about Britain and Belgium, but any law abiding citizen in The Netherlands that wants to learn how to use a gun need only join a schietvereniging (Shooting Club). There are 750 of them spread over the country, with a joint membership of 40.000 members united in the Royal Dutch Shooting Association.

After the person in question has been a member of a shooting club for a year and has practiced regularly, he or she can apply for a license to buy a gun for his or herself. You are allowed to own up to five of them. In order to keep your license, you will have to continue practicing on a regular basis.

So you see, gun ownership is much more restricted than in the United States, but not illegal.

I should say that I do agree with the person who wrote this article, that every man should know how to use a gun. We can not trust our governments to keep functioning forever. There may well come a time when we, or one of the generations after us, find ourselves left to our own devices. By that time it will most likely be to late to learn to defend yourself and your family.

Jungle Jim said...

Leonidas, you got a good point. Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

no2liberals, Can you please cite the jurisdiction here in the US that prohibits firearm ownership/possession to aliens legally in the country. I am unaware of any such prohibition. Several members of my family are legal residents and own firearms.

no2liberals said...

Paul Green,
I looked into the local IPSC group, a few years ago, and was very disappointed. It was more of a social club, and insisted that I become a part of the community in order to compete. I was talking about some of the guys in the current open class, that compete for championships each year, they are just amazing.
As for Wild Bill, true he straddled the line between lawful and lawless, but was simply pointing out the mindset he possessed and why he was able to survive as long as he did, in the environment he lived in. Killing his friend and deputy did cause him permanent psychological harm, by all accounts.

I wish I knew how to respond to our Greek friends nic, but you are correct, and I mispoke. A citizen with legal status can own a firearm. I stated a non-citizen, and should have been more precise.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

no2liberals, Thanks for the clarification/correction. Such a prohibition would not surprise me given the situation in DC,NYC or Chicago.
No I'm not Greek (Celt actually) but the nic Leonidas will work.
I would be pleased to assist any European interested in learning about firearms due to the proximity of a major airline hub and decent shooting range.

no2liberals said...

Paul Green
Meant to say earlier, enjoyed that little German poem from the ammo box.

Leonidas it is.

Zundfolge said...

Anyone interested in getting to know American gun owners need simply sign up over at:

http://www.thehighroad.org

Its a firearms and RKBA forum populated by lots of friendly folk that would be glad to arrange to meet up with folk visiting our fair nation for an afternoon of turning money into noise.

There is a "Rallying Point" subform where we arrange get-togethers and the like.

In addition, anyone interested in discussing firearms (from legal issues to technical questions to "what caliber for X critter" type discussions) its a polite, well moderated environment.

One of the elements of the American Gun Culture that too many Europeans, Leftists and Media types don't understand is that we are a very friendly, warm and hospitable segment of American Culture (in my rather biased opinion, I'd say its one of the BEST segments of American Culture).

I've started a thread over on THR about this GOV post.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4110253

(its in the General Discussion forum so I believe you can read it without registering).

PRCalDude said...

Zenster, I apologize for "sounding " negative. I am a retired law enforcement officer (Los Angeles County) and yes I have been in a fire fight with a bad guy who had shot at me on several previous occasions. The result of the fire fight was my being booked into a California jail after I reported it to the local "law". His weapon: a semi auto unknown carbine which was "prohibited" to him as he is an ex con. My weapon: S&W mod 66 3" revolver at 80'. My point is that when the chips fall you cannot rely on the "justice" system. Also please note my closing statement: ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! I will translate for you as these were the words of king Leonidas in reply to Xerxes' demand of the Spartans at Thermopylae to "Deliver up your arms". Come and take them.

I am agog. I continue to be amazed that there is such a thing as law enforcement in Los Angeles County.

Anonymous said...

Any GoV member is very welcome at the Boundary Pistol Club in Grand Forks, BC. We're about 90 minutes from Spokane, or 7 1/2 hours from either Calgary or Vancouver. We'll come up with some guns and ammo too.

Our outdoor range has a maximum distance of 365 yards (good luck) although we normally shoot pistols at 21, 60 or 75 feet.

You can email me at frank@homeinvasion.ca

Best regards,
Frank Hilliard
Pres. Boundary Pistol Club

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

prcaldude, "I am agog. I continue to be amazed that there is such a thing as law enforcement in Los Angeles County."

There used to be. My "problem" was in Humboldt County 650 miles to the north. Follow the link for the drama.

PRCalDude said...

The result of the fire fight was my being booked into a California jail after I reported it to the local "law". His weapon: a semi auto unknown carbine which was "prohibited" to him as he is an ex con. My weapon: S&W mod 66 3" revolver at 80'. My point is that when the chips fall you cannot rely on the "justice" system.
Sounds like the police and the gang were in business together. Up is down, black is white.

Pastrami said...

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