Monday, October 15, 2012

Génération Identitaire Goes Viral

Last week we posted the English-subtitled version of a French video entitled “Génération Identitaire”. It was a message from a group of young native French people of both sexes proclaiming their pride in their national identity.

Since then the video has gone massively viral in a sort of spontaneous “Rosetta Stone” operation, translated and subtitled into a number of languages, but without any central coordination:


For those readers who missed the English version, I’ve embedded it again below the jump.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bravo!

Anonymous said...

You Tube seems to have blocked the videos.

Anonymous said...

Im very happy to know its gone viral . We need massive support . Wake up ! Ex S.African

FlorianGeyer said...

According to CelticAngloPress (Twitter) the German version has been blocked in Germany. So much for freedom of speech and expression.

Anonymous said...

I conducted a little research into the parties that posted this video. The French and Dutch versions come from straight autochthon interest voices: the first, from the French Bloc Identitaire, the second from a sympathizer of Vlaams Belang. The Greek party is undefinable. The German and Spanish versions were posted by Counterjihad sympathizers.
The Italian and Polish versions are an exception: both have been posted by clearly fascist parties. The latter, posted by “David Duke TV–Poland” is singular in both coming from an obsessive Jew-hating source (see linked videos in the right bar) and in containing Jew-hating comments.

Per my discussion on these pages with Green Infidel, I am afraid that Central and Eastern Europe, the only relatively uncontaminated region remaining in the West, are doomed to eventual subjugation to EU, multiculti globalism and Islamization. Fascism, veneration of Hitler, and monomaniacal obsession with Jews (0.1% of Poland’s population, currently) turn off potential sympathizers inside, and raise the wrath of powerful forces outside.
Takuan Seiyo

Anonymous said...

Here in England the re-emergence of ethnic identity is all tied up with the forthcoming referendum on Scottish independence. Both David Cameron, who stresses his Scottish roots and Ed Milliband, whose family of Marxists arrived from Poland after the War could not identitify with the ethnic English who are those who claim ancestry either Ango-Saxon or Anglo-Dane predating the Norman Conquest.

This is why both Cameron and Milliband are desperate to preserve the union. Firstly because an independent Scotland would reduce the territory over which they are premier by between a third and a half and secondly because, as the British born but of Indian ancestry Krishnan Guru-Murthy told Milliband, you are an immigrant and are British you cannot be English. English on the whole means those who think of themselves as ethnically English.

The reason why William Hague spoke of the English as a potentially very violent race was because he knows that a separate England with an English parliament would re-connect England with a country which existed before the Act of Union of 1707 when nearly all English were ethnic English, before even the union of the crowns when James the 6th of Scotland became James the 1st of England and before even the Norman Conquest when the English became a subject race to the Norman invaders.

The date this happened, 1066, is still etched into the psyche of the ethnic English to such an extent that to resurrect England would be to smash the chains that have bound its people for a thousand years and set the ethnic English free. Once this happens then they know that the English will want their country back, that of before 1948, before 1707, before James the First and even that of before the Norman Conquest.

This would mean the collapse of the British/Norman establishment, wherever its adherants hail from in the world. It would be a very explosive and potentially destructive moment. Hence the desperation of the non-English establishment to keep us imprisoned for as long as they can.

Anonymous said...

The English video is fine, comments are just disabled, which is smart.

Though I'm waiting for the ACLU and SPLC go after it after reaches a million or so views.

So what if it's blocked in Germany, there are work arounds for this. But since it's forbidden, it will be doubly attractive to the youth.

As for the Polish one. So what that a Nazi type is pushing it. Others will copy it and post their versions. BFD. It's really shoddy thinking to equate this poster with widespread Nazi worship. If the guy had a couple million hits, I'd take Seiyo seriously. I don't. It's just shoddy thinking.

Even here in the U.S. the Nazi movement is a joke, it's full of real dumb people with criminal backgrounds. They're lepers.

One last thing, White ethnic pride and nationalism have been so beaten out of people of European descent that it only resides in the very margins of society. It is natural they would be some of the first to run with the video. Of course these margins terrifies people like Seiyo and PC/MC crowd.

Sagunto said...

This "generation" comes off as manufactured as the Occupy movement. To me it looks like the top-down egging on of genuine disenchantment.

I sympathize with the sentiment, but - like Paardestaart" - withold judgement.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Anonymous said...



@Takuan Seiyo,

Why so much stress and urgency in your comments of late TS?

Jolie Rouge

Green Infidel said...

The German version plays for me.

Green Infidel said...

@Takuan Seiyo -

Yes, the Polish source for this video is undoubtedly fascist... and there may indeed be many anti-semitic comments. There was a massive amount of anti-semitic comments on the English version of the video (to some of which I responded, causing a further storm of even angrier anti-semitic comments), so there probably will be on the Polish version as well - and also other versions. However, you are wrong if you think it is only the Right, or anti-semites, who are the main voices against Islam or multiculturalism here.

Aside from the far-left, who possibly see immigrants as potential alies, from my experience it is more often than not liberals and the moderate left who see Islam and "cultural enrichment" as a potential problem - while the Right are mostly preoccupied with Russia. Indeed - in some European countries, such as Hungary, the "far-right" parties, which are antisemitic, are also openly supportive of Islamic fundamentalists - and even support terrorist groups such as Hezbollah. This has been covered in some detail on previous posts here at Gates of Vienna.

Anonymous said...

@Jolie Rouge
cc: Green Infidel

No stress, mon jolie. It's just that Poland is my birth place, I am attached to it even though I haven't lived there in over half a century. My hope has been that it, as well as the rest of once-Iron Curtain countries will emerge strong, prosperous and free of Western diseases. Poland, however, the pivotal country in that group, is slowly succumbing to the EU regime, acting like a tame doe eating from its master's hand, importing Chechens, naturalizing Syrians, planning to build mosques, proud of its Negro citizens, pandering to Chabadnik rabbis etc. etc. with the ruling class tilting to the Western-Progressive camp. So when I see items in a blog I read and write for showing that the only visible opposition to this trend is derailing itself onto tracks that spell its inevitable defeat, it's worth commenting upon.
Not only there but everywhere, white nationalism that imbibes anything from Hitler is dead aborning, even if it doesn't know it.
Takuan Seiyo

Anonymous said...

@ Green Infidel
I haven't seen any anti-Islamization material from such center-left Polish sources (Gazeta Wyborcza?)as I scan from time to time. What you are relaying is interesting. You are right as well that American White Nationalism also has a high ratio of pathological antisemites -- the same David Duke crowd. And that's why it's been totally marginalized and has no hope of ever gaining power. That's why I registered dismay when I saw the same trend in Poland.
Takuan Seiyo


Anonymous said...

All this emphasis on anti-semiticism
is nonsense. The whole subject has long been built up out of all propartions. To most Jews everyone
who disagrees with them on ANY topic is an anti-semite.From a nationalist stance it is however clear that we must not appear to be obsessed with Jewish faults.It is better not to mention 'them' when talking politics.Their relatives [Modslems]however MUST always be mentioned in any possible solution to the problems of the West.

Anonymous said...

@Annonymous 8:35 pm

"To most Jews everyone
who disagrees with them on ANY topic is an anti-semite."

I know I'll regret even bothering to respond, but this is so patently false and unintelligent that one wonders about your motivation and ideology.

Anonymous said...

p.s. should perhaps have said that it's such a blatent exaggeration and overgeneralization (therefore it's fallacious) that one wonders about your ideology and motivation.

Balkaner said...

The video is blocked in Germany.

But i am from normal EU country, where we can see it.

But... i am happy that the uploaders started to regulate the comments - we don't need blatant homophobia, anti-semitism or some weird 9/11 nutty truthers on our side.

Anonymous said...

I think the PaleoCons who are extremely critical of Jews have legitimate criticisms. Some of them may get a bit too carried away or give too much weight to Jewish influence or control, but the gist of the criticism of Western Jews as a source of cultural subversion and certainly promotion of far Left radical politics(which are now mainstream) is correct.

Im no David Duke scholar but some of the stuff Ive read from him, I generally agree with.

That being said, Im in no way an Anti-Semite. Im a philo-Semite and a staunch supporter of Israel. I hang out with the Neo-Cons (many of whom are Jewish) and they too are critical of majority Jewish Leftism and hostility to European Christians.

So it really is a matter of nuance. And it is easy to make a statement that goes over any given person's line into Anti-Semtism. Of course nobody gives a toss about Anti-Christianism, or Anti-White-Europeanism.

Im no fan of Neo-Nazis. Im a Classically Liberal Christian of European descent with libertarian proclivities and firmly ensconced in the Enlightened American Constitutional tradition.

Criticizing Jews politically, quickly gets you labeled an Anti-Semite. Just as quickly as criticizing Obama gets you labeled a racist.

EV

Anonymous said...

@EV
You are right, yet it's all in the nuance. People incapable of the nuance should refrain from opining in public forums generally -- and that is double so for minorities to whom great injustices were done in the past, mainly Jews and Negroes. This does not mean that one should refrain from knowledge-based criticism; in fact there is much of it, relative to both minorities, in my own writings.

Take for instance your statement about Jewish "promotion of far Left radical politics." It's true, yet it's false, because it's less than even half the truth. First, of all, the ministry of Jesus is the original promotion of far-Left radical politics, but after that, the carriers of its political expression were 18th and early 19th century French, German and even Swedish and British philosopes and leaders. The Jews were a rather late arrival in this camp, not its initiators, if we exclude Jesus.

Second, from the time Marx got into the game, Jews did become the most vigorous carrier of far-left ideologies. And yet...
You define yourself as having "libertarian proclivities." Are you aware of the paternity of those principles? Have you looked into the genealogy of Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Hayek, Murray Rothbard, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman?
So Jews have been prominent promoters of "far-Right" ideologies as well as those of the far-Left. It casts your statement in a different light. And so it goes with the David Dukes of this world.
Takuan Seiyo

Robert Marchenoir said...

I see a lot of anti-semitism and "911 reopening" on French patriotic blogs these days.

We even get conspiracy theories about the Moon landing which never actually happened (because it was impossible), etc.

While the country is slowly filling up with intellectually deficient Africans, the native population seems to abandon rationality as if to merge with the invaders.

1389 said...

‘Multikulti Eine Kriegserklärung von der französischen Jugend’ blocked on YouTube, available HERE

I have an abysmally slow and intermittent Internet link. It took me the better part of the day to download it, convert it, and upload it to our own server space.

No embed codes are available, but there are links for downloading the video file in .mp4 or .flv format, for mirroring on other sites.

You New said...

Takuan, and EV,

Good points on the need for nuanced discussions of Jews, and the one about how so many Jews are considered great thinkers of the "right". Honestly, didn't ever notice that and deserves to be repeated.

I have no doubt that a distortion of the teachings of Jesus, specifically distortions developed in Christianity, serve as a leftist basis.

I'm going to be defensive though about the actual teachings of Jesus. Name one church within Christendom that celebrates the teachings of Jesus Christ? Only one. Christianity functions largely as a gnostisisation, which is simply a pseudo-intellectual attempt to circumvent that uncomfortable teaching of Jesus.

The real Jesus is this: though we wish to help others, that on and on there will be poor, pathetically struggling... a suffering world. This statement automatically implies that human-centered systems will try again and again and fail to end the problems of humanity. They won't work That saving the world can't be done by materialistically trying to do it no matter what you come up with.

In this, Jesus' gave this accurate premonition of our current mess, Takuan. That's not leftism, that's a finger pointing to the greater mystic way, which went in the toilet.

I think what we need to do is to separate real and fake Christianity by a study of Jesus' philosophy versus made-up and fixed and nice Christianity. More than anyone, Eric Vogelin tried to do some of this, but he made some errors on a couple items which cause confusion: for example, he partially misinterpreted Paul and John.

Personally, I call it fake Christianity, and yes, this faked Christianity was and is one of the main underlying causes of the modern disaster.

Green Infidel said...

@Takuan Seiyo - I had more in mind my own (completely unscientific) "straw poll" consisting of work colleagues and others with whom I have contact. At work the 2 people who most often point out that "you can't generalise about Muslims" are the more right-leaning, reading "Uwazam Rze" and against the government. While the ones who start conversations by saying they're concerned about Islam are a leftist who regularly praises Kwasniewski, and an agnostic, liberal-minded female colleague (who had a child with an Afghan immigrant, but who, since they have no more contact, asks "why does Europe let in Muslims? It can only lead to civil war..." etc).

As for the press, you are correct - Gazeta Wyborcza have not had any "Islamo-realist" articles for a while now (although, up until around 2008, I remember they used to). It's becoming more and more a Polish Guardian - and even once called Gates of Vienna a "racist blog"!

I share your hopes for Poland - as well as your dismay. Here is almost like being in a time machine - some years behind the West. Poles have the luxury of going to Western countries and seeing their own country a few years down the line - if nobody makes any effort to change things. But instead of taking advantage of this unique position, the country is obsessed by small-minded conspiracy theories about Tusk, Germans, Russians and Jews on the one hand - and Radio Maryja and the Vatican on the other. All without a meaning on the world stage - but which occupy many peoples' minds here. How to change this, when most are focused on their mortgages or new expensive holidays, and think that Islamisation is something which doesn't concern it?

However, about the "white Nationalism" - to most Poles, the name "David Duke" likely doesn't mean anything. Therefore the fact that they are watching one of its videos neither implies that they support David Duke's policies, nor that David Duke has any sizeable following in Poland. I have never yet heard his name mentioned here.

Anonymous said...

@You New
The main point of the "Bee and Lamb" extended essay I am publishing at GoV is to discuss the Christian misinterpretation of Jesus, and the unwarranted slide into leftist egalitarianism, because of that. It is, however, a can of worms and people in our camp have to agree to agree before even starting the discussion, or else we'll all hang separately (alluding to Ben Franklin, if you don't get an American reference).
Although I consider myself a Christian believer, I also believe that the starting foundation concerning Jesus is not that of religious teachings but that of rational inquiry bolstered by empirical methods of historiography, literary content analysis, etc. In other words, "Historical Jesus" -- the approach that Albert Schweitzer popularized but that predates him in Germany by 100 years.

Per such rational methods, e.g. analysis of all the similarities and differences in the four Gospels and setting the life of Jesus in the context of 1st-century Judea, Jesus' teachings were radical Leftist, as were the considerably similar teachings of the contemporaneous Essenes and Ebionites. Except all those people were also strongly apocalyptic, and believed wholeheartedly that the end of the world was coming within their lifetime. There are dozens of relevant indications in the Gospels re. Jesus. But a behavioral prescription how to prepare for the coming of the Son of Man and the Final Judgment in your lifetime is not necessarily the prescription for living in a world that has not ended, that is not ending, when one's biological duty is to build a solid basis for one's children. That's why the British/New England Protestant basis of modern Progressivism is based on false inferences.
Takuan Seiyo

Anonymous said...

@Green Infidel
What you describe jibes with my own impressions as a visitor. I think that the answer is that a cadre of people like you arise who are both savvy about local trends and streams of thought, and packed with polemical ammunition taken from English-language sources.
GoV is one such source in one prophylactic area: antidote to naivete about Islam. In economic theory there is the anti-socialism work of "Instytut Misesa,' i.e. The Mises Institute. Our exchange here has touched on a third area: WW2 history and countering successfully attacks from the ususal sources concerning racism, antisemitism, collaborationism etc. "Successfully" means truthfully, looking a TV interviewer or Eurocrat in the eyes and being able to acknowledge that in the allegations that is true, and shoot down that which is false, or that is meretricious because of ignoring many parallels elsewhere. Truth, rather than two half-truths fighting each other, has tremendous power. This applies in a way to the entire West, and I'll be elaborating on it in Part 9of "Bee and Lamb."
Takuan Seiyo

Anonymous said...

"People incapable of the nuance should refrain from opining in public forums generally -- and that is double so for minorities to whom great injustices were done in the past, mainly Jews and Negroes."

My thought is that Jews and blacks have committed as well as endured great injustices. However, any time that anyone seeks to point out this fact, the victim status of Jews and blacks automatically trumps any civil discussion of how the past and present victim status perceptions and aggressive actions of Jews and blacks contribute to their own misery - especially as non-Jews and non-blacks react to any past and present aggressive actions initiated by Jews and blacks.

While it is fair to appreciate the contributions of Jews and blacks to the benefit of the world, it is also fair to acknowledge negative influences of Jews and blacks in the world.

If Jews may blame all Western Christians for the actions of Western Christian leaders who perpetrated or 'permitted' the Holocaust (instead of crediting Western Christians for dying to save Jews and Europeans), then Western Christians may blame all Jews for the actions of foreign Jewish leaders who financially supported, seeded, and staffed the godless Marxism which murdered and tortured many good decent Russian Christians in their own country and which attempted to eliminate the religion of Christianity in Russia.

Indeed, Marxism has tortured and murdered more people in 100 years than Islam has over 1,400 years. Thus, the role of Jews in promoting past and - more importantly - present Marxism bears serious examination.

If blacks may blame all whites for the actions of white leaders who perpetrated or 'permitted' slavery (instead of crediting whites for dying to free blacks from slavery), then whites may blame all blacks for the criminality of blacks who have raped, tortured, robbed, and murdered many good decent whites based on blatant black racism against whites.

Indeed, the black culture of freed blacks has effectively enslaved whites to pay for a very expensive expansive fundamentally unproductive welfare culture (including 'affirmative' action extended to ALL non-whites versus freed blacks) with a subtext of violent criminality by blacks who intentionally target whites for violent crime - most recently violent black gang crime focused on maiming whites. So, the role of black culture needs to be realistically examined in light of the real-world results of the practice of black culture in the USA on the safety and welfare of white culture.

To avoid being called anti-Semitic or racist, people are always rush to list the tangible good that Jews and blacks have contributed to the USA along with mea culpas for the many evils perpetrated by Christians and whites. Doing so compares apples to oranges.

To be fair, people MUST compare good to good - and evil to evil.

The problem is that Jews and blacks are held to different philosophical and behavioral standards than Christians and whites.

Jews and blacks do indeed have a lot of Christian blood and white blood on their hands - more and more - as time goes by - and that merits a serious critique of the flawed hypothesis that Jews and blacks are only ever victims and are never aggressors.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

@Takuan

I appreciate your taking time to respond. And I would like to make a few comments in reply to yours.

Let me reassure you that I am informed about the big Jewish names in Austrian economics and libertarian thought. I also as I stated am very familiar with Jewish NeoCons. One of the reasons for focus upon Jews out of proportion with their relative numbers is that their cognitive abilities on average and cutlural traditions produce intellectual leaders in all sorts of movements, fields and endeavors. They become the targets of Anti-Semites who focus on the Jewish leaders and intellectual giants.

Im not really interested in going back to Jesus, but it is legitimate point. Jesus was the radical Leftists and the Jews the conservative reactionaries. But I think a more important point that you made in conjunction is that of European Christians (and other minorities) being part of the problem. The focus on Jews as the sole or out of proportion with their contribution to the far Left cultural subversion problem is common, and needs to be avoided. However not at the expense of failing to challenge Jewish culpability for their actions.

And finally, I think that a lot of lower class European Christians or at least nominally Christians may not have the education or skills to discuss this in properly nuanced ways, and surely they say things that at face value may be offensive, and surely real Jew hating groups take advantage of this to demagogue for support amongst them. But I think that silencing them is a mistake. I support the EDL, because they have made the effort to intellectual nuance, even if some of their members may be a bit crude (and certainly there are also some Neo-Nazi types about the EDL as well).

And if I may just distance myself from David Duke real quickly. I dont want to set myself up as his defender here.

Best

EV

Anonymous said...

@Tukuan again

I forgot one of the main points I wanted to make. And this is more America-centric than European wide. Jews make up a significant and influential minority in the US. 9 out of 10 Jews whom I come across in the US who are not dressed in a conservative manner, are hostile to Christendom and Christianity, and voters and monetary and intellectual supporters of radical modern Leftism, cultural Marxism.

I always suggest Michael Medved's contribution to Commentary Magazine's symposium: Why are Jews liberals? on that issue. Sarne's and Wolpe's contributions are also particularly illuminating, if you or others would like to take a look at them as well....they are all on the same page link.

This isnt to say that they dont have reason(s) to be hostile to European Christians. But that doesnt change the reality that they are hostile to European Christendom.

EV

Anonymous said...

"But that doesn't change the reality that they (Jews) are hostile to European Christendom."

Starting with Jesus, the fatal flaw of Jews has been that Jews fail to recognize - and worse yet actively persecute - their would-be saviour.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

@Egghead

I would say that when one looks at the whole historical picture, the persecution goes the other way for the most part. There is a long history of European Christians actively persecuting Jews. The Jews, being a minority if for no other reason, generally just wanted to be left alone.

Do you really need to distort history in order to support your religious ideology?

It is unfortunate, is it not?, that religious ideologues have tended to persecute those who do not share their views.

When Jews are spoken about, in this forum, it frequently seems that you just must take a swipe at them, however irrational. Perhaps you can't help yourself.

As an aside, Jews as a group refused to recognize Mohammed and were murdered and persecuted ever since by Muslims.

The situation with Jesus was somewhat different; the first followers of Jesus were Jews (as was Jesus himself) and they comprised the greatest numbers of his followers for many years.

Anonymous said...

p.s. upon what do you base your comment "But that doesn't change the reality they (Jews are hostile to European Christendom." What kind of "reality" is this, other than the obvious that people tend to despise or fear those who persecute them.

You seem to forget that Jews helped to build European Western civilization, both through their ideas and their actively participation.

Is it a simple matter of your just not being able to stand anyone who doesn't recognize your saviour? Just asking.

Anonymous said...

Im trying to navigate the political waters that we find ourselves in. The NeoCons believe thata large number of(majority) American(Western)Jews can be turned to allies of European Christendom....based on common enemies (the Left whom is brewing Anti-Semitism by the nanosecond and Islam and their alliance). We'll see if they even abandon Obama in significant (but not majority) numbers. Bit skeptical about this perrenial prediction, but it would make sense in the long struggle ahead. I think it comes down to Jews loving Jews more than they hate Christians. Similar to the P/I conflict with regards to Arabs and Muslims.

As for myself...

I would prefer not to have to concern myself with Jews, Muslims, or Marxists. But alas...this is not our fate.

EV

Anonymous said...

What kind of "reality" is this, other than the obvious that people tend to despise or fear those who persecute them. --- Anonymous

If I may be so bold. It is the same reality that produces fear and disdain for Jews.

The feeling is mutual, it would seem.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Jesus and his followers were the original persecuted Leftist radicals. Christians then feared Jews and despised them as Jesus killers.

And so it goes.

I think the point i am trying to make is that we need to protect ourselves from the Marixst Left and Jews are part of that. Another minority group whom despises Eruopean Christendom.

Jews are the farthest Left Religio-Ethnic group in the US. Not even Black Americans are as hostile, they being Christians and thus social conservatives, largely.

Interestingly enough, Jews that actually still keep Torah, vote for US Conservatives. Most modern Jews have been so twisted psychologically and are consumed with fear and hate, abandoned their core, that they are great dangers to their hosts.

EV

You New said...

Takuan,

Thanks for taking time to respond. I do appreciate your brave series the Bee and the Lamb, your many others as well.

The consummation of rationality is not rationality, it's not irrationality either, it's seeing that you don't understand, you can't know conceptually. Someday, when we all become like Lao, all things will be a made new (for us).

Nothing "new" about secular humanism; everything seems new, but remains the same old samsaric cycle.

Same way, the Buddha, as an example, asked people to try to comprehend an infinite distances and vast numbers (see Diamond Teaching). Then he told them to try to absorb the truth of their inability to comprehend truth with thinking. The conceptual mind can note what it can, but also what it can't do. In terms of what it can't: this huge area is the responsibility of philosophy-religion formations. In this arena, modern man is deeply retarded.

You New said...

Takuan, cont.

If we ever have a real conversation, Takuan, which I would welcome, I would want to talk about Jesus' main teaching, given over and over by him and misunderstood or ignored. The topic of this teaching is one which you are yet to mention, but one I have alluded to many times.

You are making the same kind of small error that Voegelin makes in his superb work regarding Paul. Jesus in not like the Essenes, in fact, he is trying to end the Essene-like approach of the Jews, to bring them to a more rational Judiasm. The LAW is for us, to help us. But it's not IT.

The Essenes thought they can be pure by pure eating and cleansing the body, Jesus said no on that.

Jesus' mystic teachings clearly separates him from gnostic, conceptualized and thus false religions.

It's either this, or Jesus himself didn't understand the meta-genius teachings, and he was confused. To modern Christians he is a leftist hippie-king, escorting us into a golden age of socialism. I know myself, all we need is the real Jesus.

The Lotus Sutra is an explanation of how meta-geniuses work beyond the understanding of rationality of regular folks. Buddhas can understand buddhas though.

To understand the main spiritual teaching, the secondary teaching must be kept in it's place, clearly stated as such. The breaking of this edit of the masters is the mistake we are making.

Kindness is helpful in intelligent doses in the temporariness of things. But it never is the main point or the center of things.

The writing styles of John and Paul can and have been misinterpreted.

One key to degnosticizing the Gospels is to be strengthened by the ineffablity of God as taught in the Dao De Ching and in the Buddha's larger vehicle teachings. Their definition of and great respect for God is very helpful in this. Of course, gnostics believe that buddha and tao masters don't "believe in God"; it's says so in the schoolbooks.

The unity of Buddha, Christ and Tao isn't a Hegelian fusion, a Unitarian multicultural feelgood. They are made of the same stuff, reappearing in various times and places.

If we sat down an had a discussion, either one or both of us would be likely to change positions. Some situations that seem at first like an example of gnosticism (fake spirituality) aren't, others that seem okay, are not okay. It may take a closer look. All Jesus' "help others" teachings are secondary, all leftists' are primary. Seperate primary and secondary teachings, as Jesus and Buddha clearly said to do! This negates the dozens of possible gnostic indications, as every one is merely a secondary teaching!

Then. there is the naive side of Christianity, which is also gnosticism based in rules about beliefs and noting of emotion. Weak and bad religion like this creates a vacuum and excuse for the current powergrabbers (the left) to create even worse ones, like communism, or our vapid, illogical secular humanism.

Trying first and not being able to rationalize the world we turn to real philosophy/religion, even sup the communion of spirit in fulfillment. This is the way of honest philosophy/religion: Healthy world; no overstepping ourselves; spiritual integrity in consort with logic; Logic is good, God in charge.

I very much appreciate you pushing towards the truth in your writing, let's go where others won't go......Cheers!

Anonymous said...

The Jews chose Barabbus over Jesus.

EV

Anonymous said...

@EV

The liberal American Jews--as a group-- are among the most well-educated, intellectual Americans and they have the essentially the same political views as the rest of educated elite. I think that Takuan alluded to this in a previous post (excuse me Takuan if this is not what you meant but it seemed clear to me that one would draw this conclusion from what you wrote). For these people, their liberal political views outweigh their Jewishness--as was pointed out, they are tending to support an anti-Israel politician who hangs out with anti-semites and was trained by anti-semites.

One can say about them that for them liberal politics really is their religion. Many of them know little about Judaism, frankly. They share these liberal views with the majority "Christian" liberals--I use the quotation marks because both American "Jewish" liberals and American "Christian" liberals tend to be secular.

It is really like a secular religion. And frankly, if you are accusing liberal American Jews of hating Christendom, then you have to accuse liberal American Christians of the same. Because their views are the same. That is the point. As a group, a higher percentage of Jews fall into this hyper-educated, intellectual elite group. Therefore, you will see a higher percentage of Jews voting in a liberal/progressive way. They are about as Jewish as liberal Christians are Christian.

And no, they do not spend their lives being "twisted by fear and hatred." (That would be enough to sap the creative juices of most people). They really think--along with liberal Christians--that they are on the side of The Good. They think that the government/legal system is the best protector of human rights and the best entity to relieve human physical suffering. In sharing this point of view with liberal Christians, they even vote against their own best interests as Takuan and others have pointed out.

Anonymous said...

"I would say that when one looks at the whole historical picture, the persecution goes the other way for the most part."

I would say that your statement is self-serving. First of all, just as many non-Jews were tortured and murdered due to the Jewish-derived philosophy of Marxism as Jews were tortured and murdered due to the German philosophy of Nazism. Now, Western Christians have to worry about Jewish George Soros causing World War III - and YES - George Soros is just as Jewish as World War II Nazis were Christian. What I am trying to point out is that Jews 'blame' Christians for their persecution but NOT their rescue, so it is only fair if Christians 'blame' Jews for their persecution rather than their noble and Nobel contributions to society. Apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Point taken? In other words, Jews need to show some gratitude to the Western Christians who built - and then saved - the Western European civilization where Jews prefer to live as a niche population - often in significant political conflict with the majority of the Western Christian indigenous founding population.

"The Jews, being a minority if for no other reason, generally just wanted to be left alone."

Controlling financial markets to the Westerner-assessed detriment of indigenous Westerners hardly qualifies as 'wanting to be left alone' and begs the question of 'wanting to be left alone to do what'? Perhaps to rule over indigenous Western serfs in a supremacist non-democratic manner similar to oligarchical Marxism as first conceived and administered by foreign Jews against indigenous Westerners in Russia?! Today, we have the foreign-born-Jew Soros and his well-documented attempts to use currency manipulation cripple, topple, or control many governments and peoples including ours - and Soros who admittedly views himself as a 'messianic figure' (messianic to whom I would ask?) is aided and abetted by many Jews. Hmmm.

Top 10 Reasons George Soros Is Dangerous

"Do you really need to distort history in order to support your religious ideology?"

We all know that history is written by the victors - and in modern times, Jews find it quite useful to portray themselves as the eternal victims of others. I am simply saying that Jews (along with blacks and Muslims) give as good as they get - which is what I would fully expect from a people with higher than average IQ as is regularly attributed to Jews. Are you unwilling to admit that the past and present actions of Jews have caused injury to others? Are Jews the first and only perfect people?!

Egghead

Anonymous said...

"When Jews are spoken about, in this forum, it frequently seems that you just must take a swipe at them, however irrational."

Is any acknowledgement that Jews are HUMAN and thus may very well be aggressors to be considered irrational on its face?

The current mental math equation seems to be:

1. discussion of role of Jews = criticism
2. criticism of role of Jews = irrational
3. irrational = crazy and automatically anti-Semitic
4. anti-Semitic = evil and genocidal

I assure you that it takes MORE than the WORDS in a few comment posts to 'persecute' a human, and I have never and would never 'persecute' Jews or anyone else.

However, such is the state of the Jewish version of Sharia Law that no one may engage in a discussion of Jewish aggression without being promptly tagged as an anti-Semite worthy of the worst scorn.

So let's discuss this contribution of Jews: The rhetorical technique of assumed victimization perfected by Jews has been taught by the left to blacks and Muslims who liberally spew the worst invective - and even physical gang violence - upon automatically 'guilty' white Western Christians. Jews, blacks, and Muslims have finally overplayed the 'guilt' card, and white Western Christians are tired of being blamed and being taxed for the alleged 'sins' of their fathers.

The first step in improving the mental health of beleaguered white Western Christians is to refuse to recognize and reward the excessive victim status of Jews, blacks, and Muslims.

Jews, blacks, and Muslims must re-enter the family of man with the realization and recognition that Jews, blacks, and Muslims are just as likely to be aggressors as the rest of mankind. Aggression may come in the form of invisible - but real - high level Jewish manipulation of financial markets OR very visible low level black and Muslim manipulation of welfare and affirmative actions programs - with both the high and low level manipulations taxed and tasked to bankrupt and weaken the white Western Christian middle class that actually created the American dream - which is all too quickly morphing into a Marxist nightmare.

Who was it again who invented and implemented Marxism? Hmmm.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous #37

Ive heard that argument before. The class argument. However this is easily destroyed by looking at before Jews became largely upper income/elites. They were in impoverished ghettos in the early to mid 20th century, and this is when they became enamored with Marxism. Which actually makes more sense, the proletariat/lower classes.

The historical bad blood also cant be ignored.

Both have rejected their faiths and turned to Nietzschean Godlessness, the Perfection of Man by Man, facing the Abyss and reaping horror after horror since the French Terror. Smiley face fascism of Secular Progressivism is the new evil bring the new horrors with it. Nihilism and spiritual vaccum which is being filled by Islam in Europe.

But back to the Jews. Did you check out Wolpe and Sarne on the Commentary Magazine Symposium: Why are Jews liberals? They offer insight as well. But I think it is a big mistake to brush aside Michael Medved's point. The visceral reaction to Sarah Palin from Jewish commentariat in the media is one marker.

There are different things in the backround of American Jewish Leftists than with self hating European Christian Leftists....which is why they are the farthest Left Religio-Ethnic group as a whole in the US.

Check out Wolpe, Sarne, and Medved.

It is interesting watching a movement of American Jews to turn on Israel....following the broader Left's lead. Many are very hesitant. But a calculation must be made....do I love Jews more than I hate Christians. In other words to have ideological coherency (unless they just go straight tribal) they must choose the delegimization of Israel as a Jewish State which is ideologically coherent with Leftist internationalism, multiculturalism, the promotion of minority rights and diversity, etc. Then they get to keep delegitimizing European Christian states...and reap the benefits as minorities in those states. But the price is another Jewish genocide in Israel.

This really has the Jews stirred up these days. The Left pushing the delegitimizaiton of Israel as a Jewish (Western) State, in the face of Maoist Third Worldist anti Imperialism/Colonialism.

This is what drives many Jewish Neo-Cons....and what has them predicting the mass movement of Jews to support Conservatives politically in the future in the US....Nationalists in Europe.

The Left is the enemy of The Jewish State and European Christendom, the destroyer of Judeo-Christian Civilization, on the ashes of which will be built the New Jerusalum. The Utopian Vision. A totalitarian horror. The new Dark Age.

My rhetoric may seem a bit harsh at times with regards to Jews, but I admire their culture, success and achievements. Christianity is derived from the Jewish tradition, and extension of it if you will. I am deeply indebted. Im a Philo-Semite. There are issues of deep polito-cultural concern with regards to American Jewry, though.

EV

Anonymous said...



@EV

I reside in one of the most politically liberal/progressive areas of the country. I rather like Sarah Palin although I never thought she was a wise choice for the Republican party. I found it rather painful to listen to progressives excoriate her. But I must say I did not find that the Jewish progressives’ reactions to her were any more “visceral” than Christian progressives’ reactions. The “religious right” appears to be the boogeyman of the progressive/liberal left. Of the ridicule, fear and loathing of Sarah Palin, maybe some of the Jews had a little more fear and some of the Christians a little more loathing relatively speaking, but by and large the responses were the same.

I agree with Hesperado that Progressives of all religious backgrounds think that they are on the side of the angels, supporting “The Good.” Liberal Jews are not liberal because they hate Christians.

“The Jews chose Barabbus over Jesus”

I really don’t know what to make of this. Do you blame contemporary Frenchmen for the death of Joan of Arc? Just wondered.


@Egghead

“… Jewish-derived philosophy of Marxism . . . According to Takuan who is no doubt more versed in the history of communism than either of us, the philosophy did not originate with the Jews, not even with Marx. It’s late and I’m too tired to track his previous comments/essays regarding this, but the point was made there, at least once.

“ . . Jews blame Christians for their persecution but not their rescue . . .” Some undoubtedly do and I have been told by one elderly Jew about the anti-semitic national broadcasts of Father Coughlin (she must have been told about this) who railed against “international Jewish bankers” and who supported Hitler. He had a very large radio audience. On the other hand, there is a very robust Jewish concept regarding “righteous Gentiles” and Jews who were persecuted, for example during WWII, were keenly aware of any help and support they received (now that I think about it, wasn’t the movie “Schindler’s List” about this theme?).

You remind me of Noam Chomsky (a secular, Israel-hater of Jewish extraction)--not in your views, but in the way you carefully martial some selected facts to support your points while ignoring others.

“Controlling financial markets to the Westerner-assessed detriment of indigenous Westerners . . . “ You totally ignore the Christian bankers? Their actions were all as pure as the driven snow I suppose?

There are historical reasons, by the way, for Jews being prominent in banking and trade just as there are historical reasons for Jews being so prominent in Hollywood. And they all have to do with discrimination. They have nothing to do with your hypothesized, nefarious Jewish plots against Christians. For example, at the beginnings of the film industry, the industry was not particularly esteemed and it was open to Jews. American Jews could not get jobs at Westinghouse but they could become businessmen in this new entertainment industry. Jewish American parents used to tell their children to become doctors, lawyers and other professionals because they could always be independent and hang out a shingle. Engineering was not so much sought after because Jews were discriminated against in the big engineering firms. And so forth.

Anonymous said...

@EV

I reside in one of the most politically liberal/progressive areas of the country. I rather like Sarah Palin although I never thought she was a wise choice for the Republican party. I found it rather painful to listen to progressives excoriate her. But I must say I did not find that the Jewish progressives’ reactions to her were any more “visceral” than Christian progressives’ reactions. The “religious right” appears to be the boogeyman of the progressive/liberal left. Of the ridicule, fear and loathing of Sarah Palin, maybe some of the Jews had a little more fear and some of the Christians a little more loathing relatively speaking, but by and large the responses were the same.

I agree with Hesperado that Progressives of all religious backgrounds think that they are on the side of the angels, supporting “The Good.” Liberal Jews are not liberal because they hate Christians.

“The Jews chose Barabbus over Jesus”

I really don’t know what to make of this. Do you blame contemporary Frenchmen for the death of Joan of Arc? Just wondered.


@Egghead

“… Jewish-derived philosophy of Marxism . . . According to Takuan who is no doubt more versed in the history of communism than either of us, the philosophy did not originate with the Jews, not even with Marx. It’s late and I’m too tired to track his previous comments/essays regarding this, but the point was made there, at least once.

“ . . Jews blame Christians for their persecution but not their rescue . . .” Some undoubtedly do and I have been told by one elderly Jew about the anti-semitic national broadcasts of Father Coughlin (she must have been told about this) who railed against “international Jewish bankers” and who supported Hitler. He had a very large radio audience. On the other hand, there is a very robust Jewish concept regarding “righteous Gentiles” and Jews who were persecuted, for example during WWII, were keenly aware of any help and support they received (now that I think about it, wasn’t the movie “Schindler’s List” about this theme?).

You remind me of Noam Chomsky (a secular, Israel-hater of Jewish extraction)--not in your views, but in the way you carefully martial some selected facts to support your points while ignoring others.

“Controlling financial markets to the Westerner-assessed detriment of indigenous Westerners . . . “ You totally ignore the Christian bankers? Their actions were all as pure as the driven snow I suppose?

There are historical reasons, by the way, for Jews being prominent in banking and trade just as there are historical reasons for Jews being so prominent in Hollywood. And they all have to do with discrimination. They have nothing to do with your hypothesized, nefarious Jewish plots against Christians. For example, at the beginnings of the film industry, the industry was not particularly esteemed and it was open to Jews. American Jews could not get jobs at Westinghouse but they could become businessmen in this new entertainment industry. Jewish American parents used to tell their children to become doctors, lawyers and other professionals because they could always be independent and hang out a shingle. Engineering was not so much sought after because Jews were discriminated against in the big engineering firms. And so forth.

Anonymous said...

@ Egghead

As for the historical reasons for Jews being prominent in banking and trade, I’ll leave the research to you. These comments are already overly long. But I will say that during the European Middle Ages, Jews in most European countries were forbidden to become land owners. And—although this varied from country to country and from one century to another—frequently Christians were forbidden to lend money at interest. This left some economic niches for Jews who were just nefarious enough to want to survive as much as their Christian neighbors. What a nefarious plot! Hmmm.

First you seem to say that Soros is as Jewish as the Nazis were Christian. It would appear that you mean that Soros is not Jewish and that Nazis were not Christian. But then, later, you resurrect Soros’s “Jewishness” in order to condemn the Jews as a group. If Soros is Jewish, then I guess the Nazis were Christian from this point of view. Which is it? Talk about cognitive dissonance. (Come to think of it, didn’t the Nazis want to confine the womens’ activities to “Kirche, Kinder and Kuche” or church, children and kitchen? This implies that they saw some role for the church. I doubt that Soros sees any role for the synagogue).

I share your dislike of Soros who has repudiated his Jewishness (did he have one Jewish parent?) if he had any to repudiate in the first place. He appears to be more of an enemy of Israel than Obama is. And he is a great supporter of Obama, the Ford Foundation (you remember Henry Ford that nefarious Jew, don’t you?), the Apollo Foundation, etc.,etc., etc. Many people consider him to be a criminal and I read that he would be arrested if he set foot in certain countries. But then the Democratic party appears to embrace criminals who have enough money to support them. The Republicans no doubt do the same, hopefully to a lesser degree. I say “hopefully” because we need to vote for someone and against Obama.

I think I remember reading that the Spanish inquisitor Torquemada had Jewish ancestry. I don’t think that makes him Jewish but perhaps you do. There are Jews everywhere—you just can’t be too careful. Hmmm.

I think you make the elementary mistake of assuming that ALL Jews blame Christians or hate Christians when anyone who knows anything about Jews knows that ALL Jews don’t think alike on any matter. That’s why it is so stunning that the majority of American Jews have embraced Obama—Obama who is a hater of Israel. It’s surprising that their heads don’t explode with the cognitive dissonance.

Their heads don’t explode because the real religion of the educated elite (including the majority of American Jews) appears to be multi-culti liberalism.

If you tell me the occupation, income level and level of academic achievement for any American or European, I can predict his voting preferences with a high degree of reliability. (But I hope this situation is beginning to change.)

Jews have been persecuted for the crime of being a minority group with a different religion but I have never heard any Jews refer to themselves as “eternal” victims. From where do you get such a ridiculous term, ridiculous in this context?” From what I’ve gleaned on the internet and elsewhere, there is a great deal of anti-semitic and Nazi “literature” about the “eternal Jew” –you know, “the eternal Jew” with his “eternal” nefarious plots. Is this your source for the phrase?

You say that White Christians (and of course you speak for ALL of them) are tired of being blamed for the alleged sins of their fathers. All this after you have condemned Jews for the alleged sins of their fathers.

And when any of your points are contradicted, I’m sure you can always dangle the red herring that ANY criticism of Jews is always called anti-semitic and irrational. It is one well-practiced way of trying to deflect a critique.

Anonymous said...

First, I put my alias on my comments instead of making anonymous comments to avoid criticism. I will say that it is really confusing to discuss issues with anonymous posters who refuse to adopt an alias because I cannot follow who is saying what.

Second, Takun is an intelligent but anonymous columnist whose background and experience are unknown to his readers. Smart guy, but still anonymous.

Third, Adolph Hitler may not have invented socialism but he sure did take it to a-whole-nother level. In the same way, even if Marx did not invent communism, Marx put it on the map (literally! ha!) which is why Marxism is named after Marx and "Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history." Karl Marx

Fourth, obviously, there is a distinct difference between the specific and the general when people decide how to treat other people. I have very dear specific Jewish and black friends who are wonderful individuals, and yet I am still able to recognize general trends of Jewish and black group behavior that damages Christians and whites. What I am saying is that Jews may be able to recognize specific Christians as friends and still view Christians in general with hostility. This would be the same for any people regarding any other people.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

In Matthew 21:12, Jesus castigated the money changers in the temple, so the complicated relationship of Jews to banking traces back to the New Testament.

It is NOT what Jews were forced to do with regard to banking, it is what Jews voluntarily did with regard to banking. Could it be possible that Jews MIGHT have conducted banking in a way that many indigenous Westerners felt and experienced as being unfair and unjust?

If we restrict our conversation to today, we see that the foreign Jew - YES Jew - George Soros is NOT simply making a living in the USA. In his messianic vision (again I ask messianic to whom?), billionaire George Soros is full of hope and change and money to subordinate the United States to the United Nations and implement a host of other radical 'reforms' calculated to persecute indigenous Western Christians in their own homeland.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

"Which is it? Talk about cognitive dissonance."

Yes! You make my point for me.

White Christians have been held to a DIFFERENT standard than Jews, blacks, and Muslims for too long.

If Jews, blacks, and Muslims are to generalize about evil white Christian people (the spurious ideas that all whites are racists - and anti-Semites by extension - at a subconscious level and that all whites benefit from white privilege pop to mind), then to survive, white people need to assess the world in the same way. We need draw attention to the fact that Jews, blacks, and Muslims generate their own substantial evils.

For example: "The JDL elaborates on this fundamental principle by insisting upon an "immediate need to place Judaism over any other 'ism' and ideology and...use of the yardstick: 'Is it good for Jews?'"

Jewish Defense League

In my opinion, the problem is that Jews en masse have decided that 'what is good for Jews' is to rabidly and artificially raise up (and mass import) primitive minorities to the diminishment and detriment of the power and status of white Western Christians.

Where you think that Jews have a new religion of multi-culti liberalism, I think that Jews are desperately confused about what is good for Jews, and white Western Christians will suffer greatly in the future due to Jewish confusion, delusion, and collusion to value minority groups over white Western Christians.

"... I have never heard any Jews refer to themselves as 'eternal' victims."

Never again? Never again what? Complete the sentence for me.

Slogans like 'Never again' have enabled Jewish people to be very effective in defining the main narrative of World War II to be that Hitler committed a Jewish Holocaust.

What has been almost completely lost in the narrative is that 1) Hitler also tried to eliminate many Christian Europeans and that 2) American Christians stopped Hitler from eliminating both Jews and Christians.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

@Egghead,

I don't have the time to really re?pond but quickly,
how is voting for someone who was mentored by anti-semites and who may bring about a holocaust in Israel "good for the Jews"

It seems evident to most people that both Americans and Israelis are held to a different standard. I can certainly agree with that.

What is it that you don't get about the fact that many American Jews are voting against their own best interests and feel that they are being moral righteous in doing so--as do their Christian liberal partners?

Where has it been "lost in the narrative" that Hitler also killed many Christians? Everyone knows that.

Everyone knows that Americans (mostly Christian with some Jews) saved Europe.

There was something about the Jewish holocaust by the Nazis which did and does capture the imagination, I presume because it was a planned genocide carried out with the greatest of efficiency using the most modern techniques. Why does this bother you so much?

The JDL was a very small, radical organization. Do you identify with "Christian Identity" or even more radical Christian groups?

Jews as a whole do not generalize about "evil white Christians." This exists only in your imagination.

"Never again" is a phrase used mainly by Israeli Jews showing a determination to never again be a victim--just the exact OPPOSITE of what you are claiming.

What is it about your attitude toward and beliefs about Jews that causes your rationality to fly out the window in discussions about them?

Anonymous said...

@Egghead

I do agree with you that the multi-culti progressive view discriminates against whites and holds them to a different standard. This is obvious and revolting.

I live in a liberal area, in the belly of he beast so to speak. And I hear male Jews say that their ethnicity, gender and skin color works against them in obtaining jobs in academia and in government. The quotas work against them. For the purposes of multi-cult, they are considered to be white.

Anonymous said...

Calling someone irrational who disagrees with you is sloppy arguing. Make your points without resorting to insults that another perspective is simply crazy.

It is funny to me that we argue the same point but interpret its meaning differently.

Never again rests on the idea that Jews have been victims again and again. Victims have victimizers. It is the definition of who bears the Jewish blame for victimizing Jews that bears examination. Who?

The JDL verbalized the concept that Jews as a people should act in the best interest of Jews as a people - rather than as whites or Americans or Europeans - as if Jewish interests diverge from those groups.

What Jewish beliefs about whites or Americans or Europeans would make Jewish interests diverge?

Might it be an ingrained belief that white Christians - Americans and Europeans - have been, are, and will be Jewish persecutors instead of their benefactors?

Well, by electing Obama, Jews have made themselves a self-fulfilling prophecy where Jews will again be perpetually persecuted - this time by black and Muslim minorities who do NOT give a fig about the Jewish perspective. Ahem.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

It is NOT unanimously agreed that the scale of the badly named
'holocaust' was correctly assessed.
Most top historians on WW2 now agree that the 6 million figure was at least a ten-fold exaggeration. Whereas the Holodomor and the Turkish genocide of possibly one and a half
million Armenians circa 1915 is
universally accepted [except in Turkey].If the Jewish WW2 figure IS
exaggerated that might suggest that most of the other pogrom
stories are equally exaggerated.
You can't always believe everything you hear.

Anonymous said...

@Egghead

It's funny that you don't seem to get the obvious point that religious minorities have been persecuted for being, well, religious minorities.

Although there used to be more anti-semitic prejudice in the U.S. than there is now, Jews have on the whole done very well here. So why should they "blame" their fellow Americans? And they don't. (I'm sure you can find a few outliers who might and you can find people who blame the Martians as well). They know that there are some anti-semites but they feel protected by the laws and by the Constitution and by the civil society.

They do blame the Nazis as well they might. For the persecution during the middle ages, they blame medieval fanaticism, but they know there were also churchmen (righteous Gentiles) who defended Jews. But we don't live in medieval Europe. So your point seems pointless.

Conservative Jews know that Jew-hatred is structured into Islam (as is Christian-hatred to a slightly lesser degree).

Liberal Jews--like their Christian counterparts--prefer the multi-culti fantasy of the global village in which everyone has more-or-less the same desires. After all, aren't we all people? Shouldn't we be our brother's keeper? If we are nice to "the other," will not "the other" reciprocate? Like their Christian counterparts, they mistrust the "religious right" because they suspect it could be a source of religious fanaticism and intolerance.

Our whole, our educated elite--both Christian and Jewish--dislike what they call " religious fundamentalism" and tend to consider it to be at least somewhat declase.

On the whole, our educated elite--both Christian and Jewish--have adopted PCMC views.
In America, most of these will be Christian. But a sizable minority are Jewish because a high proportion of Jews are well-educated.

I'm not saying anything you don't know, I'm sure.

We agree that Jewish support for Obama is irrational. And I'm not insulting Jews by saying that. Nor am I insulting you by pointing out some irrational statements.

Usually when smart people are irrational it is because they have an underlying--conscious or unconscious--belief, belief system or ideology which supports this irrationality.

For liberal Jews and liberal Christians it is the fuzzy-wuzzy, multi-culti view which we have discussed and decried many times.

Anonymous said...

@Egghead

Liberals consider themselves to be highly moral people. This is true for both Christians and Jews. Many cannot let go of these views because they are terrified of facing the real world in which all contemporary men can never be brothers--a world in which many people and some whole cultures want nothing better than to kill you and replace your civilization with their own. Many liberals simply refuse to believe this and refuse to look at the evidence. Such a world is too horrible for them to face.

So in psychological/behavioral terms, they get both positive and negative reinforcement for embracing multicultural political correctness.

They are able to congratulate themselves and others and feel highly moral by adopting this point of view--both Judaism and Christianity ask people to love their neighbor as themselves and, after all, we are all one global village, aren't we? This is part of the positive reinforcement.

They are also able to alleviate the pain of contemplating a world in which others would like to kill them (they will admit that there is a "small minority of extremists" of course). By adopting PCMC, they avoid the pain and horror of having to face such a world. This provides the negative reinforcement.

As any psychologist knows, behavior and beliefs which provide both positive and negative reinforcement are very strongly held. PCMC is a secular religion. Look what Europe is doing to itself--and for the most part they don't even need the help of "the Joos" to sink themselves.

Why do you keep bringing up the JDL which, at best, is a marginal fringe group? It's enough to make one think that you might take seriously the rantings of "Christian Identity" or other fringe groups? So why keep talking about JDL? Most Jews know little about them and are not interested in them.

You seem to be utterly determined to find "beliefs about whites or Americans or Europeans that would make Jewish interests diverge." It looks like you are trying to find evidence to support your firmly held, preconceived beliefs about this.

Some women think that their interests can diverge from mens' interests. And vice versa. What attitudes and beliefs of men would make their interests diverge from those of women? And vice versa. Perhaps you can dig up some evidence to support these points if you try hard enough. I realize that this is not the best analogy, but you get my drift I'm sure.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 41

Why Jews Hate Palin

Jennifer Rubin — January 2010 - Commentary Magazine


Sarah Palin is a great symbol/personification of European Conservative Christendom. She lives those values and positively radiates them.

Certainly Marxists and minorities of all stripes disliked or hated her. Blacks because she was White European and running against their Brother. Jews because she personified the success of European Christian principles and values, which needs to be subverted and disempowered via government sanction.

EV

Anonymous said...

"It looks like you are trying to find evidence to support your firmly held, preconceived beliefs about this."

Wrong. I was raised to be very PCMC about minorities. It is the study of the New World Order that led me to the study of Islam and the study of Muslims that led me to reconsider my extensive PCMC conditioning regarding the role of Jews in the survival (or demise) of Western civilization - for it is literally the survival of Western civilization that is at stake here.

My childhood best friend was a Jew, and I have another dear friend now who is a synagogue-attending Jew.

As a teenager, I visited the Anne Frank house and empathized greatly with Anne - especially since, at that time, I was the same age as she had been during the war - and I looked just like Anne Frank! The lovely optimist Anne Frank will always be a heroine to me.

I visited a concentration camp and felt the oppressive sadness of the souls of dead Jews - like Anne who eventually died in a concentration camp.

I wish all Jews the very best, BUT if white Western Christians intend to save Western civilization, then white Western Christians need to recognize that Jews themselves consider Jews to be a separate people with their own goals and needs that diverge from those of white Western Christians.

White Western Christians - and Jews - firmly believe and proclaim that the world needs Israel to be Jewish.

In direct contrast, do Western Jews believe that the world needs any countries to be Christian?

To me, actions speak volumes, and the actions of Jews indicate that Jews prefer - and actively plan - for Western Christians to become minorities in their own Christian homelands.

White Western Christians becoming a minority in every country is contrary to the goals and needs of both white Western Christians and Western civilization.

And, Western civilization is the only thing standing between Jews and obliteration. However, when one examines the situation, one senses that the mass of Jews (pun intended) completely misses that point.

Egghead

Anonymous said...

@EV

I clicked on your link to the Jennifer Rubin article and I do not see the words that you quote.

I hope you didn't just make it up. What page? Which paragraph?

Anonymous said...

@ EV

I just looked through the article again from which you supposedly quoted. The quote is not there.

I suppose that is one way to win an argument. You make up a quote expressing your views and then attribute it to someone whom we are supposed to consider (upon some non-specififed basis) to be an authority.

Anonymous said...

@ EV

pps. Oh, I see. You are not quoting from the article. You are abstracting what you think the article said, taking it out of context, and then adding your own opinions. Well, well. Not convincing.

Anonymous said...

@ EV

Here's an article that may interest you. I hope this url is not too long--I can't seem to figure out how to do the link.

frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/the-death-of-jewish-liberalism/

Anonymous said...

@ Egghead

Here is a link to an article, without the initial www because I've forgotten how to do the shorter link

frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/the-death-of-jewish-liberalism/

I just came across the article and it supports my point that liberalism/PCMC is a disease of our educated, and usually more secular, elites. (Although many of the mainstream Protestant churches appear to favor it also).

Just as an aside, modern Zionism came about as a result of French anti-semitism--some famous case (I can't remember anything at the moment). Some individuals became convinced that Jews were really safe no where, not even in western Christian countries, and they had to have some land of their own for their own safety. Too bad they had to locate it where they did although I understand why. But the point is that there was not any desire to conquer the world or force their views on others. Even during ancient times, the ancient Israelites--religiously and ethnically different from today's Jews--did not seek an empire, only that small piece of land that they thought god had reserved for them.

It would be interesting if, during the next generation, American Jews as a group became more conservative than the population as a whole. I've read somewhere--can't remember where--that Canadian Jews are much farther ahead in making this kind of switch.

The times they are achanging!

And the author of the article is right when he says that the increasing number of conservative Jews will help give other Jews cover and encouragement as they to break away from a community norm. And lest you become judgmental about *this,* remember that liberals/progressives are among the most intolerant of all people. In the big city/university town environments, those who publicly embrace conservative principles can lose friends, loose much of their social life and even loose their livelihoods. And this can occur no matter what their religious background is.

I agree with you that, at the current time, western and Christian civilization is the only hope for most of the world's Jews. (Some would call it Judeo-Christian civilization).

We probably agree on most of the main points.

I don't have time to continue and probably will not be checking back here for some months because my work schedule will not permit it.



Anonymous said...

I wasnt trying to mislead or deceive. Poor formatting I guess.

After revisiting the Jennifer Rubin article, it didnt really provide backround support for my assertions here. Maybe it was another, that I am remembering. Oh well. Please forgive me for wasting your valuable time...and again, I wasnt trying to pull a fast one on anybody.

Thanks for the link, Ill check it out.

EV

Anonymous said...

Im supposing that I am talking to Takuan still.

Anyways, we probably all agree on the gist of things, but maybe diverge around the edges.

Im a big fan of Jewish NeoCons and really enjoy their company. I certainly hope that they can win the majority of American Jews over. They certainly are trying.

I didnt know about a trend towards conservative parties in Canada (or Europe) with regards to Jews. But the whole switch makes rational sense. Anti-Semitism is growing by leaps and bounds on the Left, the I/P conflict and the Jewish State of Israel as a Nationalist project is the driver (along with the Red-Green Alliance of Left and Islam).

Keep on keeping on...

EV

Anonymous said...

@ EV

Not Takuan, but thanks for the compliment. No worries.