Monday, June 23, 2008

The Spanish and the Portuguese — Once and Future Dhimmis?

The Fjordman Report

The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.
For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here.



José Manuel BarrosoIn May 2008, the President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, stated that Islam is part and parcel of Europe and condemned the concept of a clash of civilizations. “Islam today is part of Europe. It is important to understand this. One should not see Islam as outside Europe. We already have an important presence of Islam and Muslims among our citizens,” Barroso told a press conference after a dialogue between EU leaders and twenty high-level representatives of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in Europe. The Grand Mufti of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Dr. Mustafa Ceric, responded that Islam is indeed part of Europe but unfortunately Turkey is not yet part of Europe. “Following this logic Europe has to prove that Islam is part of Europe by not delaying the acceptance of Turkey to the EU,” he said.

I find this especially sad since Mr. Barroso, prior to becoming the unelected leader of the EU, was Prime Minister of Portugal, a country that was for centuries under the Islamic yoke. Do the Portuguese miss their past status as dhimmis? The reaction of the Nordic countries to mass immigration and Muslim intimidation, with the exception of Denmark, has been pathetic. I’m certainly not proud of it, but at the very least countries such as Norway, Finland and the Baltic nations have had little historical exposure to Muslims. The Portuguese and the Spanish do not have this excuse, after centuries of Islamic occupation and hard struggles to regain control over their lands, which makes their current actions all the more difficult to understand.

Observer Soeren Kern thinks that “Since Spanish Socialists (more often than not) have trouble winning arguments on their own merit, the preferred tactic is to demonize their opponents instead.” He’s undoubtedly correct about that, although I do no see how that makes Spanish Socialists different from their counterparts elsewhere. According to Kern:

Silvio Berlusconi“Italian voters in April [2008] returned Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to a third term in office. The center-right leader was given a strong mandate to crack down on runaway immigration and spiraling street crime, two hot-button issues that are intrinsically linked, not just in the minds of Italians, but in those of many other Europeans too, especially in Spain. As a result, Spanish Socialists are (rightly) worried that Berlusconi’s get-tough approach will jeopardize their own fantastical vision of turning Europe into a post-modern multicultural utopia. It therefore comes as no big surprise that Spanish Socialist Deputy Prime Minister María Teresa Fernández de la Vega, who is also commonly known as Spain’s high-priestess of political correctness, recently lashed out at the no-nonsense immigration policies of the new Italian government. Her pontifical rebuke declared that the Spanish executive ‘rejects violence, racism and xenophobia, and therefore cannot agree with what is happening in Italy.’” Moreover, “By rewarding illegal immigrants with Spanish (and thus European) documentation, Zapatero has unleashed what is known as the ‘call effect’ to people as far away as Kashmir who now believe that Spain is an easy gateway into Europe.”
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Gustavo de Aristegui, the foreign affairs spokesman for the conservative (but in my view still a bit too soft) Popular Party, explains in his book The Jihad in Spain: The obsession to reconquer Al-Ándalus that, in schools throughout the Muslim world, maps are used with Spain and Portugal colored green because they are still considered part of dar al-Islam, or the House of Islam. According to antiterrorist sources, eight Jihadist groups have settled in Spain, located mostly in Catalonia, Madrid, Andalusia and Valencia. Their threat is real, since most of these sleeping cells “can be activated at any time and perpetrate criminal attacks.”

Map of al-Andalus

As AMDG from the blog La Yijad en Eurabia says: “The fact that Spain is one of the targets of the Third Jihad is not surprising. Muslims have the religious obligation to expand Islam — mostly political Islam; conversion can be forced later on in many ways — and in particular they have the compelling obligation to retrieve those lands on which Islam once ruled. Al Andalus — that is Spain, and not only the south of Spain, the modern Andalucía — was once under Mohammedan yoke and is therefore among the priorities of the Jihad. The answer by Spaniards to this threat cannot be more discouraging. Spanish government withdrew its troops from Iraq immediately after the first terrorist attack, even if they were not combat troops. Their next initiative was the proposal of the Alliance of Civilizations.”

José Luis Rodríguez ZapateroThe Socialist PM José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero was swept to power by the Jihadist terrorist train bombings in Madrid in March 2004, the largest peacetime attacks in Spain’s modern history. He has been surrendering his country to Muslims and mass immigration every day since then. Zapatero, who has said that “sexual equality is a lot more effective against terrorism than military strength,” appointed a pregnant woman as Minister of Defense in April 2008, thus making a mockery of his armed forces and signaling to everybody that his country has no intentions of defending itself.

There are also serious plans afoot to create a tunnel linking Spain (and thus Europe) physically to Morocco and Muslim North Africa. As usual in Western countries, Socialists who seek to destroy their own countries are de facto allies with Big Business interests, the same business interests that have championed the borderless EU common market, who desire bigger markets and an abundant supply of cheap labor, and tend to view defended national borders as an obstacle to both. According to a study by the Group for Reflection and Proposal on Business and Immigration, Spain needs over two million new foreign workers until 2020, many of whom will undoubtedly be Muslims.

In June 2008, it was announced that an “interfaith meeting“ sponsored by Saudi Arabia was to be held in Madrid. The dialogue would be held by the Saudi-based World Muslim League. “Prominent figures among followers of the divine messages will take part in dialogue concerning life in human societies, international cooperation, human rights, and issues of security, peace and living together in the world,” said a statement by the agency.

As Robert Spencer commented at Jihad Watch: “There are several angles to the choice of Spain for the site of this ‘dialogue’: One, obviously, is that it would be rather awkward to invite a large contingent of religious leaders to a place where they are forbidden from carrying bibles and other sacred texts, and from displaying religious symbols. And, of course, they certainly couldn’t hold the meeting in Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina, since no non-Muslims are allowed there. That might lead to uncomfortable questions when one considers that Rome, Jerusalem, and other cities are open to all visitors. But beyond that is Spain’s history as an Islamic possession and the trumped-up myth of the nearly utopian, Islamic Andalusia of yore; the idea of going back to those ‘good old days’ will surely be a source for much of the propaganda that will come out of this Saudi-led venture.” Spencer feared that a more accurate term for this event would be “interfaith monologue.”

Socrates mosaicAs I’ve stated in my online essay Socratic Dialogue vs. Islamic Dialogue, Muslims understand the term “dialogue” in a way that differs sharply from that of Westerners. For them, “dialogue” does not mean an attempt to rationally debate a topic in order to arrive at the truth. Truth is already given: It’s called sharia, and the only “dialogue” that is acceptable is one that will lead to the implementation of sharia, one way or the other. When they invite to a “dialogue,” they actually mean that we should negotiate our surrender, or else…

Poul E. Andersen, former dean of the church of Odense, Denmark, warns against false hopes of dialogue with Muslims. During a debate at the University of Aarhus, Ahmad Akkari, one of the Muslim participants, stated: “Islam has waged war where this was necessary and dialogue where this was possible. A dialogue can thus only be viewed as part of a missionary objective.” When Mr. Andersen raised the issue of dialogue with the World Muslim League in Denmark, the answer was: “To a Muslim, it is artificial to discuss Islam. In fact, you view any discussion as an expression of Western thinking.”

Since its inception, Islam has been waging an aggressive war against the rest of mankind, with the stated purpose of bringing every single human being on earth under Islamic rule. Infidels have been presented with only three options: Convert to Islam, die, or submit under Islamic rule as a dhimmi, a second-rate citizen in your own country subject to serious financial pressure, constant verbal humiliations and frequent physical abuse. Islam hasn’t changed in the last 1400 years. Unless we are prepared to accept conversion or dhimmi status, we have to fight. The Spanish and the Portuguese knew that once. One can only hope that they will remember it again.

25 comments:

Arius said...

Yes, you are right, we need to fight. But people in the West think we need to be 'nice', that its uncool to think badly of Muslims. What surprises me is the determined ignorance of people in the West that have no idea what is coming at them, think Islam is just another religion of peace, and don’t understand whether we fight them or don’t fight them the jihad will keep attacking us. I agree with Bat Ye’or who told Phyllis Chesler that "[…] if Obama is elected, America will become dhimmified even faster than Europe."

If Obama is elected it is likely that America will return to a pre-911 mindset. I am convinced that will eventually guarantee a catastrophic attack against an American city. I am not sure that even if McCain is elected it can be avoided.

Saharians said...

I do not blame Muslims for attempting to spread their ideology. Until recently, Christians had enough confidence to do the same. Today, even Christians have surrendered to nihilism and despair, not to mention rap music, Multi-Cult, and porn. But the Muslims are mistaken in thinking they will achieve progress, and the Islamic world will pay dearly for their errors. But it's clear to me the REAL villains are the white Marxist leaders currently occupying the seats of power in Spain and Portugal, and indeed the whole of the EU. These traitors are the REAL enemy here.

What to do, what to do... ;)

Saharians said...

Writing in his 23-June column titled 'Age of Heros,' Taki Theodoracopulos argues:

"The point I am trying to make is that the Fifth Columnists among us in the West are the ones who will facilitate the Islamists in gaining their dream. They are the politicians and civil servants who deny us free speech and have opened Europe’s borders to the hordes without a fight."

The Muslims will, in time, be removed from Europe. But it is the white Marxist leaders currently infecting our nations who must be removed first.

Zenster said...

“Following this logic Europe has to prove that Islam is part of Europe by not delaying the acceptance of Turkey to the EU,” he said.

Fjordman, while—as always—your writing is crystal clear, I must take issue with the above statement.

“Logic” has nothing to do with the foregoing. Actual logic would force any sane individual to conclude that Muslims do not belong in Europe, just as Turkey does not belong in the European Union. Not “logic”, not “reasoning”, not “thinking” nor any other rational mentative process applies to this situation.

Much as I dislike buzz words, one has arisen of late that most accurately describes the process used by Barroso, Minister Fernández de la Vega and the entire Politically Correct establishment. It is called “narrative” and this term describes perfectly their conceptualization of the pseudo-reality that they inhabit.

Socialists everywhere—especially subsequent to the Soviet Union’s collapse—have had to fine tune their narrative in order that it still remains within the acceptable limits of comprehension. They have, per force, largely had to discard all rationality and fact-based discourse in order to retain this goal.

I would ask that you please consider adopting this term as it strips away all pretense of proper and viable thought processes. It’s long past tea for survival oriented Westerners to begin ascribing the correct degree of idiocy to the Politically Correct Multiculturalists that are steering our civilized world towards total disaster.

In June 2008, it was announced that an “interfaith meeting“ sponsored by Saudi Arabia was to be held in Madrid. The dialogue would be held by the Saudi-based World Muslim League.

The fact that Spain would even consider—much less permit—powerful Muslim interests to gather where the 3-11 terrorist atrocity took place utterly damns Spainish political leadership as moral and physical cowards of the very worst ilk. That there haven’t already been massive public protests against this Muslim “victory march” over ostensibly reconquered territory is indiciative of just how abjectly the Spanish people have surrendered to Islam.

Infidels have been presented with only three options: Convert to Islam, die, or submit under Islamic rule as a dhimmi, a second-rate citizen in your own country subject to serious financial pressure, constant verbal humiliations and frequent physical abuse.

I am obliged to note that you have omitted a final and most important descriptor of Islamic dhimmitude. Namely, its tradition of overt, intentional and comprehensive Collective Punishment. It is absolutely vital that Islam be identified as the world’s foremost and avid practitioner of Collective Punishment.

Western survival in the looming World War that our Islamic foe is so vigorously bringing about will hinge on our ability to inflict upon Muslims a degree of Collective Punishment that will quite possibly exceed all previously known historical examples, save that of Islam itself. It is critical that the perjorative connotations currently attached to this valid and effective battle strategy be seriously eroded in order to quash Politically Correct censorship of this important warfighting tool.

Whiskey said...

I think it is vital to look at the symbolism of the Pregnant Defense Minister.

What does that signal, internally to Spainards, and to whom? [Fjordman is right that it signals externally that Spain will not fight Jihad, but that is beside the point.] Why did Zapatero make that move, why was it hailed, and what did he gain from the move?

Simple. It told women, who make up the slight majority of voters, that they hold the reins to all power in Spain under Zapatero. Even the Defense Ministry is not out of bounds for a pregnant woman, lacking any expertise in military affairs and with no other qualification than being, well a pregnant woman.

This has deep appeal to the female majority that believes, with all it's might, that all problems can be solved through feminine-style ostracism (for those who don't conform to the group), social approval/disapproval, status-mongering, consumerism, and various pity fests familiar to any viewer of Oprah or the View.

To actually recognize and fight against jihad would requiring ceding a great deal of social and political power by the slight feminine majority to men who will do the bulk of the fighting and dying.

Spain recoiled from the clearly visible effort after 3/11 in Madrid to confront Jihad. Particularly women found it better to concede, bit by bit, life to Islamists than give up their power. This was the case with the (male) Byzantine Priests (lest any man feel superior). It is unsurprising. But there it is.

Politically, I would suggest the counter is to point out, over and over again, how women (who form the majority slightly in Spain) will be absolutely miserable and CONTROLLED by Islamists. Forced to wear a veil. Threatened with rape. Physically intimidated and constantly verbally harassed, with no help from the police or men.

Instead of trying to sell "counter-jihad" which requires them to cede power (no more pregnant Defense Ministers) instead make the other deal worse.

Zenster said...

Drat, I just noticed that the word "logic" was part of Barroso's own quote and not yours. Still, it would be a huge gesture if you and other commmentators made sure to identify when the PC loons attempt to cloak their treasonous narratives with such virtuous terms as "logic" and "reason".

My point about Collective Punishment still stands.

Carry on.

Diamed said...

That whole dhimmi choice is a farce anyway.

There are only two choices in reality, convert or die. Every majority muslim country has slowly but surely choked their dhimmi into extinction, percentage point by percentage point. Just look at Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Egypt. . .I don't need to look up what their scripture says they'll do, I have geography and history Showing me what they will do. Dhimmitude is just a transition point, the final result is always conversion or death.

Islam has zero mercy and should be treated with zero mercy.

Afonso Henriques said...

Why did you have to chose such a scaring title to the essay?

For God sake! I lunched 30 sec. earlier, do you want me to make me puke!?

JÚLIO SILVA CUNHA said...

I admire Fjordman but this article shows that he knows Mr Barroso is portuguese and that's it-is all you know about what contemporanean portuguese think about islam. He is wrong and show a huge amount of ignorance.Why he included Portugal in the title? The drive to write apocaliptical titles is sometimes a enemy of acuracy. He reveals a extraordinary amount of knoledge about the political situation in Spain
(it's easy, Spain is in the spotlights, Portugal not) but the Gates of Vienna demand from Fjordman (because he showed in the past a extraordinary accuracy and research in his texts) his a bit more of accuracy and less gothic extravaganza in his titles. We want more "juice"!!!It's a shame that this hapened with my country, Portugal!

Afonso Henriques said...

"Do the Portuguese miss their past status as dhimmis?"

It is viewd as absurd nowadays... and with all the multiculturalism one people here and another there start to say: "uuu, this is another invasion..." but fortunatley, some people still say:

"Reconquista, we did it once, we will do it again."

Unfortunatley, Mr José Manuel Durão (hardstick) Barroso is not a "normal" Portuguese, he abandoned the position of Prime Minister in order to rule from Brussels. Guess what how he choose the next guy to be the Prime Minister?
Do you think he asked for elections? Of course not! He called the Major of Lisbon to do the job!

" their current actions all the more difficult to understand."

Our elite is nor Portuguese anymore... we're all "Europeans" now, whatevver that means...

But our ambition is to stop being "Europeans" and to become "Humans", I don't know why but our elites do not like the Americas's elites or the African ones... not yet.

"The Spanish and the Portuguese knew that once. One can only hope that they will remember it again."

The left won't. Never.

Fjordman said...

I admit I know less about the situation in Portugal than in Spain, yes. I think most readers do. If you can fill me in, I'm all ears. I do of course not believe that all Portuguese are like Barroso, just like not all Spaniards are like Zapatero (thank God). If all Europeans were like are so-called leaders, we would already be lost. But on the other hand, I haven't seen anything indicating that Portugal is immune from the problems of the rest of Western Europe.

I will write one essay for Germany, one for Italy and one for France as well. Perhaps also one collectively for our cousins from the former Communist countries in the eastern half of Europe. I feel most sorry for them, in a way. They have been under the dominion of the USSR for decades, and now they fall under the spell of the EUSSR. Welcome to the "free" West.

Afonso Henriques said...

"But it's clear to me the REAL villains are the white Marxist leaders currently occupying the seats of power in Spain and Portugal, and indeed the whole of the EU. These traitors are the REAL enemy here."

Exactley but, since we live in a democracy, what about the people who elected, supported, or simply did not fought them?

Whyskey,

"Even the Defense Ministry is not out of bounds for a pregnant woman, lacking any expertise in military affairs and with no other qualification than being, well a pregnant woman."

I think that the woman in question is a Catalan women with a family of military service. I think both her father and her grandfather were great members of the Spanish army. At least, it was what I read in a far left blog.

Afonso Henriques said...

Hei Júlio Cunha!

You are not getting it right.
First of all, Fjordman's main cause is to fight islam. Spain is way wors than Portugl in what considers islamic conquest.

Of course, you now start to see one and another islamic face here, yes, it's true that the Câmara Municipal de Lisboa gave that grand Mosque to the muslims for free but the situation in Spain is far worst.

In Lisbon - and to a lesser extent in Oporto as well - there are some neighbourhoods that are majority-muslims but try go to Barcelona!

I have only found a coupple of news about islamic activities in Portugal and only one ended up with death. The death of two Hindus in Bairro Alto.

You may be familiar to what happened on the Santo Amro's beach in Oeiras with more than one thousand people rebelling.

Yes, I agree, they were not Portuguese. But they were not muslim either.

Fjordman is concentrated in fighting islam, not in fighting "for" Europe. That is secondary for him, despite the fact the colateral effect of his essays has much more effect than my "save Europe first" screamings...

The question is, what do you wanted Fjordman to say? I think you are being unfair.

Is it really the muslims who are destroying (left) or are the agents destroying (ethnic minorities) Portugal? Come on!

In case you don't know, that's what's happening in Spain with the complacency of all the "Castillanistas" who prefer to attack the Basques or the Catalans than to expouse the muslim threat, because that was what Aznar did during the 11th March atacks.

And that's also why Zapatero is in power. He will not attack anybody, if much, we will attack that empty and vague thing that is the "Spain" as a Nation.

randian said...

Particularly women found it better to concede, bit by bit, life to Islamists than give up their power.

Given that Islam is utterly misogynist, why would any woman fail to see ceding things to Islamists as giving up power?

AMDG said...

Thank you for the reference, Fjordman. Please note that I have now an index with the posts in English. You will like the name: De Rebus Hispaniae, On the things about Spain. It is the title of the first history book on Spain, by Bishop Jimenez de Rada who participated in the battle of Navas de Tolosa. The last big battle against the Moors in Spain.

Bishops are not what they used to be.

José, The Fenec. said...

Altough modern multicultural is entering portuguese society as in other european countries, we still collectively retain a kind of paranoia about being invaded, even directed against the spanish, who tryied to submit us several times across our history. Our country has being built from the Reconquista, so our story as a portuguese nation starts there, it's the first thing our kids learn about portuguese history, the fight against the moors.

Fjordman, you can be sure of this: Even if we are not immune to this problem, we, by force of not being a rich and attractive country for mass immigration (even if we have some), will remain way behind in the islamization trend. Paris and London will burn to the ground way before we get "quietly" colonized, or even have any serious problems with muslim enclaves here. Our cultural marxists joke about this remnants of collective "spider sense" as some obsolete and backward mentality, they're always calling us the "poor cousin" of tolerance when comparing us with say, the more open and tolerant dutch people. Yeah, right, i've read about the dutch,and it seems their "tolerance" is more a messed up moral compass than actual enlightment... (not wanting to offend those few who don't fit with this profile)

You have to visit Portugal, not only the Lisbon, the only true multicultural city here, go wandering troughout the rest of the country.

Not all is well here, we are aging, and have economical problems, but, i think will watch the clash of civilizations to be decided on other major european "battlegrounds", and experience more the aftermath consequences of those.

Afonso Henriques said...

"Altough modern multicultural is entering portuguese society"

Entering? Come here to Lisbon... José...

Do you think that only the National football team is multicultural?
Well, if you stay here in Lisbon and its neighbourhoods, the lines of Sintra, Cascais and Oeiras, and even in the Southern bank of the Tagus river, you will see that between 20 to 30% of the people is not Portuguese... so I'd not say "is entering" when the majority of them are second generation and the third is alredy being raised... or not raised...

Multiculturalism has penetrated Portugal like a cancer, just like Spain and you start seeing multiculturalism penetrating into the Interior as well.

"we still collectively retain a kind of paranoia about being invaded, even directed against the spanish"

I don't think we have that paranoia. Though, I also think that this is not lunacy.
Spaniards are four times our number; they have a greater economy and almost control our economy having a considerable share in almost every sector; Look to Olivença, for God Sake! Look to the phd Thesis of Franco!
Just like Al-Andalus means all Portugal and Spain, Spain, España in Castillan means all Portugal and Spain, from the Latin Hispanae » Espanae » Espana » España.
Of course that they won't attack us today but its way more likely a Spanish invasion than a Moroccan or an Algerian invasion at some point in the future...

Concerning what you said directed to Fjordman I just want to make some few points:

1st) We're not rich but we are atractive. That's a non sense. At the same time our workers go work in Galiza, brazilians, guineans and others work for them by half of the price.

We have been flooded and I honestly don't know why.
In the North, Oporto, Aveiro, Braga and all the regions in between start to atract "ethnics".
I think they may comprise some 6 to 10% of the Nation.

Looking at some schools in Amadora and Loures region, they are clearly a majority. Walking along the line of Sintra, you will see that 60% of the children with less than three years are not Europeans, and the rest of the 40% are not all Portuguese...

We are too multicultural. Coimbra, starts as well...

If you think you can sit quiet in Portugal while the U.K. France and benelux are in flames because of multiple multicultural wars, you are very, very wrong.

I will only speak a little longer about Portuguese demographics:

We have 10 million people:

3 millions in the Great Lisbon Area;
3 millions in the Aveiro-Braga-Oporto axis, penetrating all the way East to Penafiel;
3 millions in the Interior North of the Tagus;
1 million South of the Tagus.

It's multiculturality (my estimatives) are something like:

Lisbon Region = 25% "ethnic"
Oporto Region = 10% "ethnic"
Interior = 1% "ethnic" at moast
South = 5% "ethnic"

That makes an average of 10 to 11%.

If we count only the "youths", the numbers will double easily, thouth I doubt the numbers would triple without new arrives (that are being made as I'm writing this).

In the Hospital Amadora Sintra, 60% of the new born, are children of first generation immigrants. Other "ethnics" may be some 5 to 15%.
I will also say to you to go to that Hospital on a Saturday night to see how not multicultural we are...

Now another thing must be said, the vast majority of those, are not muslims, muslims may consist some 5% of the "ethnics", ten at most, despite the fact that the most recent wave of immigration consists of:
Christian Romanians and Moldovans;
Christian(?) Romanian gypsies;
MUSLIM Guineans;
MUSLIM Marroccans;
MUSLIM Indians;

The mosque in Lisbon is always full...

When looking at Bosnia, I bet the Macedonians had the same mindset and now are 30% muslim, and growing...

Afonso Henriques said...

This may be a bit disloyal but José, for you to have an idea of the mindset of some 30% of the Spaniards, those I call "Castillanistas", I went to the link provided to us by ADMG:

"Jimenez de Rada used for the first time in the history of Spanish sources from al-Andalus and developed an encompassing view that included not only Castilla, Leon and his predecessors, the kings of Asturias, but also all other kingdoms (Aragon, Navarre and Portugal)."

"Not only Castilla and León (that means, Spain) and his predecessors, the Kings of Asturias (that is, the only Hispanic Christian Kingdom during the maximum force of the muslims, from which every other Kingdom derives)"

Now pay atention:

"but also other Kingdoms (Aragon, Navarre and Portugal)"

So Aragon and Navarre, a third of Spain, is like Portugal.

And I agree, we are all Hipanics!
The thing is, that Spain thing... it seems that Aragonese and Navarrese have the sama level of "Hipanicity" than Portugal... hm... suspicious...

This is not offensive ADMG, you don't have to be mad because of this. This is exclusively to José.

Also, concerning the formation of the "Portuguese Nation" during the Reconquista...

I do not agree with it at all. yes, by this time our State was born, but our Nation existed even before this...
If you stop with the Lusitanian non sense and if you stop with the "Lisbon-centrism" you will notice it rapidly.

Yes, our King was established during this period, and our flag (the curent one still) has its origins in the XI century, when Herique, from Burgundy came down here and was granted some territory but if you look to the Northwest, and if you are able to understand that Lisbon is the capital, exactly because it was easy to defend from the Castillans, if you look where our language originated, where it is "purer", where we have (and still have) had our Historical most important demographical centre...
If you join the peaces, you will realise that there was a Portuguese people, even before the Portuguese word had been invented.
Cheers!

Bela said...

Fjorman hinted his future plan includes a study in the Eastern European political scene as far as the Pan-Islamisation concerned so please let me say a few word.
I as a person of Hungarian descent I was very much interested in finding out the prevailing attitude toward the European Islamisation so I engaged in questioning the only Hungarian language blog dealing with the subject (http://dzsihad.blog.hu/) and the result is quite reassuring: All quiet on the Eastern front!

1. In spite of the current participation in the EU, Eastern Europe was never part of the West: Hungary, Czech-Slovak, Serbia, Romania etc. were feuding provinces of Austria and after the Soviet occupation the impenetrable Iron Curtain descended and no immigration ever occurred, quite the opposite: people with common senses tried to flee the hellish Communism. While the West opened up to millions of 3rd. World immigrant the East remained isolated not only physically but mentally as well: this is an inbred society with vicious hatred and xenophobic attitude toward each other, a place where historical grievances are well alive today.

The Multicultural mantra dies at the border for it’s is a Western Marxist idea that was never part of the Eastern hard core Marxism: most of the minorities ended up in camps or reservations. West Germans import the Turks but the East Germans beat them to death and the hatred of “different races” is wide spread. A part from a few Turkish fast food outlet there is no Muslim immigration, instead there is an open government policy (Hungary) to import Chinese immigrants and their presence is better felt and tolerated. Tolerated but not welcomed.
Apparently the epic conflagration with the Muslim worlds will happen in Western Europe and the East will stay out of it.

From Praguepost com :
Locals react to anti-Muslim sketch
And a reader's opinion:
"21:54 12/06/2008] : This article clearly shows how deep Islamophobia is ingrained in society.
No matter what Muslims do or say, they are put through a microscopic analysis.
Being a Muslim, I like the Czech Republic and its peaceful nature of common people.
But this article has made me worried about my surroundings that I feel I'm part of.
At least this article has achieved creating a seed of a sense of fear among Muslims... Thanks for this."

http://www.praguepost.com/articles/2008/06/11/locals-react-to-anti-muslim-sketch.php

Thiagan said...

25/06/08

Thiagan says:

As a Hindu from India, the Westerners should appreciate the difficulties in managing 200 million muslims amongst us for over 1000 years. We have managed them and here are a few suggestions:

> Go back to Christianity and the Church. It is a good religion and it is worth defending. Defending Christianity is better slogan than defending an abstract like freedom of speech, democracy etc.
> Throw out the socialist scoundrels from politics and the left lunatics from the academics
> Force the Conservative Party to become Christianity supporting party; it is unlikely that the Church will exert any undue influence in the government and it is an issue that can be remedied.
> Scrap the welfare pay outs except for the aged. Welfare only encourages the unproductives and undesirables.
> Make extradition easy and it should be for the entire family; the convict will be jailed say for a period of five years but the family will be thrown out immediately on conviction
> Influence the judiciary, by fair and foul means, to give tougher decisions.
> The police force should be brainwashed against muslims and should use violent methods to control. In India the police does and people brush aside the resultant Islamic jingoism.
> The Conservative party should accept national security as the main plank
> Re-install death penalty
> Once in five years there should be riots in which thousands of muslims will be killed. Sounds barbaric; the alternative is being consumed by barbarism. In India we retaliate and it is called constructive response.
> Separate them physically in secluded areas; that is better than to permit them to live in all areas, which they will contaminate. They will never assimilate and do not attempt at it. This will be helpful in times of riots.
> Stop muslim immigration and substitute with Hindu labour; they are law abiding and will integrate admirably well. Hindus are the second richest and most highly educated minority in USA. There is a not a single case of a Hindu being profiled for wrong reasons.
> Teach the children to hate the muslims; they any way are doing the same thing.
> Follow the Hindu way of life; live life and accept death as inevitable; live for the children and for their future. Sex is only a side attraction and wealth is only incidental.
> Consign all the human rights character to Saudi Arabia, that is the place where they should practise their profession; tell them human lives are more important than human rights
> Get out of EU and preserve your right to protect your country and its culture. Earlier you had a country and culture to be proud of and now EU has converted the countries into anonymous entities
> In India we have a main stream political party for protecting the majority rights; create a similar one, since otherwise the secular fanatics will abandon the majority

In short show no tolerance to an ideology which is intolerant, no equal rights unless it is reciprocal and no mercy when your survival is at stake.

Ultra said...

I agree with Thaigan we must forget about enlightement utopias and return to the integrism of navarrese Carlism:
Dios, Patria, Fueros, Rey
These four words (which can be translated as God, Fatherland, Local Rule and King), have been the motto and cornerstone of Carlism throughout its existence. What Carlism understood by these was:

Dios (God): Carlism believes in the Catholic Faith as a cornerstone of Spain, and must be politically active in its defense.
Patria (Fatherland): Carlism is heavily patriotic, but not nationalist. Traditionalism sees the Fatherland as the nesting of communities (municipal, regional, Spain) united under one.
Fueros (similar to medieval charters): Part of the limitation of royal powers is the acknowledgment of local and regional self rule (and of other types of communities in the political body, specially the Church). Although the result of a peculiar historical development in Spain, it converged with the concept of subsidiarity in Catholic social thought. Note that some versions of the motto omit the Fueros clause.
Rey (King): The concept of national sovereignty is rejected. Sovereignty is vested on the king, both legitimate in blood and in deeds. But this power is limited by the doctrine of the Church and the Laws and Usages of the Kingdom, and through a series of Councils, traditional Cortes and state-independent intermediate bodies. The King must also be the Defender of the Poor and Keeper of Justice.

That's sound alternative for both international marxism and capitalism, fascism and liberlism.

José, The Fenec. said...

Afonso Henriques wrote:
"It's multiculturality (my estimatives) are something like:

Lisbon Region = 25% "ethnic"
Oporto Region = 10% "ethnic"
Interior = 1% "ethnic" at moast
South = 5% "ethnic" "

I REALLY would like you to show me the statistical data from where you draw your "estimatives", you can send it to my e-mail or post the link here. I don't suspect your intentions, just your judgement. I belive if Lisbon were 25% ethnic the city would be problably stopped by now... And who do you include on those "ethnics"? Brazilians along with africans, ucranians and other eastern europeans?

I never expressed how much immigrants were here, just how i perceive it's the portuguese mindset to indulge into the multicultural ideology, as COMPARED to others. People here are allways saying we are "small minded" i've learned to take that as compliment. If we are that much "ethnic" as you say than it only reinforces my belief, that we must not be feeding "afirmative action" kind of procedings and institutional discrimination against natives as much as we can see in other parts of Europe.
I might not be 100% right, but i don't think i would be that much wrong.

Be well, my friend.

Afonso Henriques said...

José,

"I belive if Lisbon were 25% ethnic the city would be problably stopped by now"

Well, José, if I claimed so, I am sorry. The city of Lisbon may be 25% "ethnic", it's not all that a stupid number but I didn't mean that. What I meant is that the whole Metropolitan Area of Lisbon, the lines of Sintra, Cascais and Loures, as well as the southern bank of the Tagus river is (may be) some 25% "ethnic". I don't have statistics over that area because our government does not count people according to ethnicity. Pepe and Bosingwa are as much Portuguese as Sócrates and Cavaco. But I have some statistics of other small territorial areas, and I have more than that, I do have eyes...

If you get a train, or the subway in any of this lines in a normal day, 40 to 70% of the passers by are "ethnics";

Many neighbourhoods here are something like, more than a third "ethnic" and every "bairro problemático" (Problematic neigbourhood) South of the Mondego river is more than 90% "ethnic" (maybe excluding Chelas that may be some 50 to 75%);

Schools. Public schools are a mirror of the society.
Here, I know at least three schools in which you can pass by and you can not see a burnette white person.
It's virtually all african with one or another blonde Ukranian boy or girl;
Excluding high schools and Universities, many schools are more than 50% ethnic and many are also more than three fourths ethnic.
Virtually all are at least ten to twenty percent or more;

In some places among those Lines - and it seems even more noticable in inner Lisbon - the quality of an high school and the level of "exigência" is proportional to how not multicultural the high school is.

" i perceive it's the portuguese mindset to indulge into the multicultural ideology, as COMPARED to others"

It's true, "povo de brandos costumes" as Camóes once said... but the mindset is complicated. When the ones that robbed you the last three times have in common the non-Portuguesity, people start wonder why they are here. It all goes fine here because we're still living the Socialist dream after April...

White flight in some regions is noticeble too. But I'll mail you for details... I'm tired now...

"we must not be feeding "afirmative action" kind of procedings and institutional discrimination against natives as much as we can see in other parts of Europe."
As much I agree. But affirmative action against the natives does take place.

Well, have a nice day down there in the South... I'm dying to go there in August. Behave yourself!

Qualis Rex said...

I haven't been to Spain in over 13 years, and I really have no desire to go back under it's current state. I am pleased at the present stance Italy and Italians are taking regarding the Islamicization of our country. Although I feel we can definitely do more, when I look at Spain et al, I realize we can definitely do less as well...

dorean paxorales said...

Turkey is a strictly non-religious state, as defined by its founder, Mustafa Kemal, and its ruling urban elite is non-islamic.

As for Portugal, there's hasn't been a muslim on sight for almost 1000 years.
With the exception of the small, extremely civilized, terrorist-hating and perfectly integrated ismaeli community, of course.