Wednesday, April 30, 2008

Racism in Denmark is Disappearing

Denmark has recently shown that it opposes Islamization, and that its opposition spans the political spectrum, from the Socialist Workers’ Party to the Danish People’s Party.

However, the latest evidence indicates that the national distaste for Multiculturalism and Islamization is not motivated by racial hatred. Henrik of Europe News has translated an article from last week’s MetroExpress about recent trends in Danish attitudes towards other races:

Almost no racism in Denmark

Only 26 police reports concerning discrimination in 2007


Hardly anyone is being rejected from discotheques or are subject to humiliation due to their skin colour in Denmark, according to the number of police reports concerning racial discrimination, which has dropped to its lowest level of a decade.

From 2006 to 2007 the number of cases reported to the police fell by 60 % to a record low of 26, according to a report by Rigspolitiet [national police]. For instance, the police district north of Copenhagen filed only three cases in all of 2007, and none so far in 2008.

“Previously we had quite a few cases were immigrants were not admitted to discotheques due to their skin colour. We don’t see these cases any longer. It might of course be that the immigrants no longer visit the discotheques in question, or it may be that the discotheques are in compliance with the law,” states police inspector Karl Erik Agerbo, chief investigator of Nordsjællands Politi.

Immigration spokesman of Venstre, Karen Ellemann, believes that a major information campaign during 2006 against discrimination in the nightlife has paid off.
- - - - - - - - -
“It is a cause for joy that we now have the results of our targeted effort. We have made it clear to everyone that the Danish society does not accept racism.”

Do you believe that only 26 individuals were discriminated against due to their skin colour during all of last year?

“This is something I really do wish to believe. It remains important to make it clear that no one has to suffer from racism.”

Henrik’s take on the last comment:

Some may suggest that racism is there, but not reported to the police. The fact that there has been a campaign targeting this issue makes it abundantly clear that this argument is flawed: If alleged “racism” isn’t bad enough to cause the bother of filing a police report, it simply cannot be much of a problem.

81 comments:

spackle said...

Or it might be that immigrants can tell which way the wind is blowing and that phony race crimes no longer achieve the desired effects. From what I have read about Denmark of late I hope this is the case.

Diamed said...

OT, but thought this was an important article. The crime jihad (sorry, don't know how to shrink the link):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560_pf.html

Henrik R Clausen said...

Diamed, the instructions for shrinking a link is given right above. It looks a little technical, but it's trivial. Result is like this:

In France, Prisons Filled With Muslims"

It's *another* important article. At EuropeNews, we're struggling to keep up with the flow. And diving into it is interesting. I wrote an essay about it a while ago, Why so much bad news?", which was reposted in Malaysia (of all places). The comments went on the line of "Basically, he's right." "Our government didn't come out with anything good for a long time." "He just wants Islam to catch up with modernity."

There is like a polluted river of bad news about Islam. But what about the good stuff?

A Muslim girl (Ester from Islam in Europe wrote me back and suggested a few articles. I looked at them and said: "But this is not 'Good'! This is just 'Less bad'". One of the articles she suggested was that guide dogs were to be admitted to a certain mosque, under certain strict conditions. Good news for the blind, sure, but that was good in spite of Islam.

She gave up finding anything good due to Islam. I didn't find anything, either.

Henrik R Clausen said...

As you can see, you also get all kińds of nice typos, like the odd " here and there.

The 'Preview' button is your friend for formatting stuff.

spackle said...

Henrik r clausen -

In regards to "in France, prisons filled with Muslims". Have you ever seen the French documentary "10e chambre - Instants d'audiences"? It is a very interesting look into a day in the life of a judge who deals with throngs of petty criminals most of whom are Muslim and sub Saharan African. The excuses they give for their crimes are priceless. I recommend it to all GOV readers.

Conservative Swede said...

Spackle,

Or it might be that immigrants can tell which way the wind is blowing and that phony race crimes no longer achieve the desired effects.

Exactly my reaction to this too! Get rid of the anti-racism activists and most of the racism disappears too. The same with anti-Semitism etc.

In a society where people are explicitly encouraged to play the victimization theater and make phony charges, they will do so. Otherwise not. Even as a Swede I found it remarkable how much this was encouraged in America. Most notably the high degree to which black people where encouraged to behave badly. I travelled both in the U.S. and in Latin America in the same trip and the difference was striking. In Latin America black people behaved as normal people (I'm speaking of the impression you get of them as a group, not about every single individual).

costin said...

i am thinking that the cause for all of this is that the danes have gained their respect from the immigrants by standing strong for free speech and western values.

by not appeasing foolishly, the immigrants saw that there is no point in making stupid requests and they better start integrating, and their hosts did not look like wimps.. you can't have respect from someone who does not have respect for himself.

the respect came through the dignity of the Danes, not through the fear of the immigrants...
i would be glad to know that this is the case. maybe in this way at least one or 2 countries would take the example.

Teresita said...

Henrik R Clausen: She gave up finding anything good due to Islam. I didn't find anything, either.

One would perhaps need to turn to Rome to find anything good being said about Islam.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day" (CCC 841).

The belief in the unity of divinity, the holiness of the prophets, Jesus and Mary, Jerusalem and the promise of the second life are common to Islam and Christianity.

Esther said...

Henrik,

1. I'm not Muslim.

2. I agree that there isn't much 'good news'. But as I also wrote on my blog, when Muslim organizations actually say something good (like: don't allow Muslim men to demand male doctors for their wives) - it usually doesn't make the news.

3. The reason there's no more 'good news' on my blog is because I don't keep that category in mind when I categorize. There is more 'good news' - if you would be really interested in finding it, you would find it.

4. It's funny you mention it on this specific post. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel to prove your point. So discos are now afraid to keep out the same people they would have kicked out before, intimidated by multiculturalists and racism complaints. That's your drop in discrimination? Why is there no comment about sharia law imposing itself once again?

Conservative Swede,

Did I understand you correctly that anti-semitism is caused by pro-Jewish groups? People hate Jews only because they play the victim role? Wow, if Jews had only known that in the past. I guess now that you discovered it, they can start to really integrate into society. I seem to remember last time they tried it in Europe, Europe said a big 'no, thanks', but who knows, maybe it would work this time around.

Dymphna said...

Esther--

Thanks for coming by to comment.

Please ignore anything Conservative Swede says about Jews. Just don't go there. He is a picador and Jews are the bull. He simply has to poke at them.

He thinks a trip through North and South America has made him an expert on our race problems.

Affirmative action for minorities (which Jews here don't get and wouldn't take) has simply caused a kind of aggrieved resentful entitlement. Listen to Obama's wife and you'll pick up the tune.

However, the Jewish population here is not an affirmative action group. They don't have set-asides; no colleges insist on a certain percentage of Jews, even though they certainly are minority.

When said Jews arrive at colleges or jobs they don't sit together, have separate dorms, or insist on their "rights." They don't have a distinct mode of dress or stand out in any way.

Oh, except intellectual achievement.

Multiculturalism's stinky little orthodoxies -- p.c. speech, victimhood, moral relativity, "tolerance" (but only for certain groups) -- are polarizing our country.

I'm waiting for Conservative Swede to convert to Judaism any day now. You know why? The man doth protest too much. He's going to be a Chinese Jew, though.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Ester, sorry for my mistake re. (1).

Re (2), that is actually another example of something that is only good relative to Islam, not good in itself. It's like fixing a self-imposed problem - why make trouble about the gender of your doctor in the first place? If noone had done that, noone would report on stopping it. Kindof like this fellow who was banging his head into the wall. A friend of him asked why on earth he was doing that: "I do that because it feels so good when I stop."

BTW, an interesting idea to demand *male* doctors for their wives...

Re (4): Yes, we have a problem with cafes and nightclubs afraid to keep the troublemongers away. At Krasnapolsky, that's being taken to court. I really don't like this.

But my point with this post was to show the spectre of 'racism' to be false. If any left-wing loonies come along with the charge of racism, demanding this or that countermeasure to be set into effect, we can pull up the statistics and show him to be completely off the bat.

And these quarrels over 'racism', 'discrimination' etc. are covering up a lot of very real problems that our politicians should pay attention to, like the decay of our physical infrastructure. Politiken had an editorial about it recently, where they routinely blamed the government. The counter-blame was so obvious it barely deserved mention:

Politiken has for years been screaming out the multi-kulti agenda, blaming everyone else for being inhuman kindof-racists, and making all kinds of apologies for Islamists, too. Doing so, they have contributed significantly from diverting attention from everyday problems.

Being a supporter of the current VK (O) government, I simply said: "Yes, I'm resonsible for not having paid attention. Let's make a deal. We'll pay more attention to fixing the sewers, and you'll stop screaming about how unreasonable it is to make caricatures about Islamic terrorists."

As for (3), finding the good news, I keep hearing that it can be done. But noone seems willing to take the effort. If the example you gave above is the kind of 'good' news we can get about Islam, I simply deem it 'not newsworthy'. Islam seems to disempower its adherents, and organisations like Hamas actively use military means to provoke humanitarian crises they may exploit for their genocidal purposes, at the expense of their own population.

Dissolving Hamas would be good news indeed, not least for the inhabitants of Gaza. I surely would report that!

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

Did I understand you correctly that anti-semitism is caused by pro-Jewish groups?

These so-called "pro-Jewish" groups are doing a big disservice to the Jews, so I wouldn't call them that. They are no more pro-Jewish than the American Communist party is pro-American. But yes, those anti-Western activist groups, acting in the name of the Jews and supposedly against anti-Semitism, take them away and most of the anti-Semitism will go away (just as for other racism).

For anti-Semitism the "pro-Jewish" groups cause it in a very concrete way by making mass immigration of Muslims happen. Not very clever, is it?

You are an example of this yourself. You fear groups as Vlaams Belang and SIAD, and talk about how "the swastika is much more frightening than the crescent because it is much more realistic". (I'm referring to your infamous article Nazis!). You rather let the mass immigration of Muslims continue, because you fear more if it's stopped. Thereby you are supporting to the growth of anti-Semitism in the West at a blistering speed.

People hate Jews only because they play the victim role?

Nope, I didn't say that.

Henrik R Clausen said...

People hate Jews only because they play the victim role?

If that was the case, we should hate Muslims...

People seem to dislike Jews because Jews and Israel have very clear identities, and they're standing up for it, at least somewhat. Same goes for Serbs, BTW.

Esther said...

Dymphna,

Thanks. I'm sorry, but I can't just ignore such things. More than that, I don't understand - people throw out anti-Semitic comments and I'm the one being advised not to respond?


Henrik,

Ooops.. I meant 'demand female doctors'. Yes, of course those who protest show that there's a problem, but to ignore them is unfair, I think.

Anyway, at the time I emailed you because you 'dared' people to show you there's good news. If you want me to keep you updated, I can, though I'm not that interested in proving the point. You will always have more bad news than good news, about anything. Nobody will write about the Muslim who thought demonstration X was stupid and therefore stayed home.


Conservative Swede,

You obviously don't read what I write, so it's kind of useless to argue about it, but, you're welcome to try and find one article of mine where I support mass immigration (of any type).

You're not really doing a good job of convincing me that Jews have nothing to fear, though.

VinceP1974 said...

Have you guys ever heard Dennis Prager go on rants about Jews?

Henrik R Clausen said...

Nobody will write about the Muslim who thought demonstration X was stupid and therefore stayed home.

Nope.

What we *will* write about is the Muslim who thought demonstration X was stupid - and therefore organized a counter-demonstration. That'd be news!

The apathy amongst Muslims for the atrocities committed in the name of their religion is a very real problem. Staying home is not enough. Standing up for human dignity is what's needed.

Conservative Swede said...

Dymphna,

Please ignore anything Conservative Swede says about Jews.

Yes please do. I'm just saying ordinary, everyday, grayish things. How Jews are just normal, nothing special about them; an ethnic group just like any other ethnic group. My comments are completely uninteresting and unchallenging. So please ignore them.

Regarding the later part of what you write you seem to say that I have claimed that I learned from my trips in Las Americas how Jews are an affirmative action group. Erhm, excuse me? You seem so eager to agree with Esther and disagree with me that you have to make things up. But I have to disappoint you Dymphna, because we actually agree. Take the following comment:

Affirmative action for minorities (which Jews here don't get and wouldn't take) has simply caused a kind of aggrieved resentful entitlement. Listen to Obama's wife and you'll pick up the tune.

This is precisely the thing that I brought up. The full extent of which I could see in my trips in the U.S. and Latin America.

He is a picador and Jews are the bull. He simply has to poke at them.

You are making things up again, Dymphna.

I bring up blacks, Chinese, Jews, Swedes, Americans, Catholics. But it's only Jews that are considered super-sensitive to even mention. While there's no limit to how aggressively derogatory things that are considered fine to say about the Chinese.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

You obviously don't read what I write, so it's kind of useless to argue about it, but, you're welcome to try and find one article of mine where I support mass immigration (of any type).

The article I linked above. You make it clear that you fear the groups that want to stop mass immigration more than you fear the Islamization of Europe. You even describe SIAD as a right-wing extremist group, the ones that you fear because "the swastika is much more frightening than the crescent" to you. You describe the attempted murder of the peaceful SIAD demonstrators by leftist stormtroopers as infighting between extremist groups. You show zero empathy for the old lady that was beaten into a bloody pulp. Just another extremist to you.

This article was link by Charles Johnson. Fjordman objected to the same thing I'm objecting to here, and this led to his expulsion from LGF.

You're not really doing a good job of convincing me that Jews have nothing to fear, though.

That's good, because you have much to fear. The Muslims are aggressively anti-Semitic and Europe is becoming Islamized at a blistering speed. You should start worrying about that, and wake up from your dreams about "good news" about Islamic moderation.

Esther said...

Conservative Swede,

I'll copy/paste what I wrote about that (see here):

I did not mean to label SIAD/SIOE in any way. I wanted to bring facts for thought:
1. Left wingers/Anarchists have been wrecking havoc in Copenhagen for weeks.
2. Left wingers/Anarchists have been violently clashing with extreme right groups all over Europe for much longer. Reading in the news about "extreme rightists attacked by left wingers" is not that rare.

Therefore, having a group of protesters brutally attacked is not the start of political violence in Denmark, nor is it the sign that Eurabia is upon us. Does political violence only start when it's directed at your people?

----

In other words, I was not reacting to the claims of violence, but rather to a blog article that claimed that this specific attack was a sign that Eurabia was upon us and that this is the beginning of the end of Denmark. My claim was: the 'end' started when the radical leftists rampaged and rioted in the streets for days on end, not when they ambushed one group of people they didn't agree with.

If you want to harp on my anti-right leanings: in my 'infamous' Nazi!!! article I made a much bigger mistake, which I publicly admitted and apologized for. Nobody really noticed it in the first place or seemed to care later. Have fun.

Henrik R Clausen said...

These so-called "pro-Jewish" groups are doing a big disservice to the Jews.

Hm, this is where things are starting to get complicated... If the pro-Jewish groups damage the cause for the Jews (or for Israel, for that matter), who then to stand for Israel and make the world understand that her challenges are real?

The pro-Jewish groups also form a newsfeed chain for non-Jews like myself, who take up the defense of Israel when possible. That's quite important. We need to ridicule the ant-Jewish sentiment of the left, who in simplistic ways oppose *any* use of violence, also in response to unjust violence.

Further, it seems there's a tendency to put pressure on Israel for the simple reason that Israel is seen as receptive to pressure and can be forced to change her ways. Hamas and Hezbollah are completely impossible in this regard, which interestingly leads to a situation where not many are even trying. Getting the facts out (like Hamas attacking the oil supply to Gaza), like the pro-Jewish groups do, is very important.

CS, I think you're making things a tad too complicated :)

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

In your "an explanation" you also wrote:

- I got several replies about my claim that the extreme right is more dangerous to Europe than Islam. I have voiced this opinion in the past, and it is directly connected to my interest in this topic. Islam and the extreme right are not separate issues. I believe that the existence of such a big group of immigrants, especially one which is as contentious as Muslims, is causing Europe to shift more and more to the right. This is a danger to Europe's liberal values and to its minorities.

Is the crescent a bigger threat than the swastika? There are maybe 5% Muslims in Europe. How many Muslims are currently in European parliaments?

How much did (far) right wing groups get in past elections?
Austria - Austrian Freedom Party (27%, 1999)
Belgium - Vlaams Belang (11% national, 24% Flanders)
Switzerland - Swiss People's Party (29%)
France - National Front (16% 2002, 10% 2007)
Denmark - Danish People's Party (13%)
(Several of these parties were either in government or very close to it)


Success by these parties--most of which by most of us here are, if not celebrated, at least supported--in your mind becomes evidence of how "the swastika is much more frightening than the crescent".

Also;
Demographic Jihad, by mass breeding and continued mass immigration, makes 5% Muslims today become a majority within 50 years. Take a deep breath and take in the power of exponential growth. In numerous European cities the kids at school age are already 30% Muslim or more. Cities will become majority Muslim before the whole countries, and some already are.

Your way of opposing the only groups working for actual action against this development is deeply immoral. It's precisely this sort of immorality that is the danger to Europe's liberal values and to its minorities!

Also in your explanation you distance yourself from SIAD, hint that you still see them as extremists, show no empathy for their plight, and claim that this pivotal event was of little significance. This is of course all in line with the tunnel vision that you proved to have.

Conservative Swede said...

Henrik,

I don't really follow what you are saying, and you do not seem to follow what I've been saying.

My support for Israel is staunch and rock solid. I applaud their efforts and just wished they were tougher. When I say this I get accused of being a rabid pro-Zionist.

While so-called pro-Jewish groups' (i.e. leftist activist groups) efforts to facilitate mass immigration of Muslims into the West is clearly doing a great disservice to the Jews. The powerful elites among the Jews clearly are no better then the powerful elites among the Protestants. And when I say this I get accused of be anti-Semitic.

All these accusations are utterly ridiculous. And the whole thing is rather simple. Any ethnic group will ultimately identify with their own group first. Not necessarily based on rational self-interest though. Human groups easily fall into irrational fear. E.g. the fear that the swastika is a bigger threat than the crescent.

Either we indulge in the pity of understanding these fears, and remain in passivity out of respect for it. Or we act.

Henrik R Clausen said...

As for the idea that any pan-European "far right" movement exists, I went a bit into detail here:

The Mythical European 'Far Right'

Personally, I find the concept a distraction, not a useful description.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS, you are right. I didn't go sufficiently into details on your previous comments.

Esther said...

Conservative Swede,

This very blog posted an article so recently about the solution (I call it 'fear' or 'threat') of genocide. According to the article, genocide is the expected result of what is currently happening in Europe. To me, genocide is the swastika, this is exactly what I fear. If you agree with that article, then what are you attacking me for?

As for showing remorse and regret - I don't know SIAD. I don't see where you see that I hint anything, but I realize there's no point in trying to talk to you, as you have already decided I'm guilty of whatever it is you accuse people you don't agree with. I'm evil incarnate for you, for some reason.


As for long term demographic forecasts:
(1) life is not always a straight line on a chart.
(2) European cities have large Muslim populations but that doesn't change the fact that nationwide they are a very small minority.
(3) my chart was not about the far future, it was discussing the present and near future. Muslims don't have a parliamentary presence.

If you want to discuss my article, you're welcome to do it on my blog, I'm not going to start defending it here, especially not when you don't really care what I say and would rather go with what you think I hint at.

You accuse me of wanting Europe to be overrun by Muslims, so here's a few questions for you:
Do you fear an ethnic Swedish minority in Sweden or do you fear for Swedish culture? Do you think there's any way an immigrant can be truly Swedish? If yes - how?

Bela said...

My approach to this "hyper sensitive" Jewish question is rather simple and outrageous.
Today the Guardian posts this:

We're not celebrating Israel's anniversary

* The Guardian,
* Wednesday April 30 2008

Signed by 100 Bolshevik Jew.
___________________________________
I do not lump together the Jewish people by regarding them as homogeneous ethnic tribe.
The largest segment of Jews are infested with Marxism, no one can take Stalin out from the Jewish soul. Prominent Jews calling for the destruction of Israel (Tony Judt) they regard the existence of Israel as an abomination and so on.
These people support Multiculturalism, Muslim immigration and anything that hasten the demise if Western civilization including their own.
My stand is: you deserve your ultimate destiny which wont be cordial and warm.
I fully support Israel's fight for survival.
Don't you read the papers?
Every leftist Jew and organization express visceral, vociferous hatred against Israel.
The famous self-hating Jew!
Only the smaller section, mostly religious Jews feel pride in Jewish nationhood.

I feel sorry for these decent people who eventually will be the victim of Stalin's Jews.
Did you see pictures from the expulsion of Jewish families from Amona (Gaza),- did you see how mounted, armed Leftist Jews beat into pulp the defenseless fellow citizens?

In the light the facts I have referenced at above, I think neither Americans nor Europeans will not have kind word towards any reincarnation of Soros, Chomsky, Judt, and the likes.

So? - Should consider myself as anti-Semite or philo-Semite?

Henrik R Clausen said...

Hey - I got the flag for the 60 years anniversary. Lacking a flagpole, unfortunately. Have to fix that.

This reminds me that I should do .. something to celebrate it.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther: This very blog posted an article so recently about the solution (I call it 'fear' or 'threat') of genocide. According to the article, genocide is the expected result of what is currently happening in Europe. To me, genocide is the swastika, this is exactly what I fear. If you agree with that article, then what are you attacking me for?

Esther describes the article by El Inglés as an article about the "solution of genocide". And that this is reason for Jews to fear.

I rest my case...

Jews, as all infidels, indeed have reason to fear. Unless we act and oppose the Jihad. So you should not oppose this action, Esther, and compare it to the swastika. It's this action that can avoid the genocide. You got El Inglés' article all wrong. Genocide is not brought up as a "solution" or an "expected result", but as the consequence of inaction. It's people like you that pave the way for genocide by comparing action to the swastika.

Also, for your information, the hypothetical genocide referred to by El Inglés refers to Muslims not to Jews. Genocide of Jews is more likely what you should expect if the Jihad is victorious. You surely get everything upside-down.

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede:
"My support for Israel is staunch and rock solid."

That's what really matters in my book.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

According to the article, genocide is the expected result of what is currently happening in Europe.
Open your eyes and read it again. The article outlined a possibility, not "the expected result". Given the trends as they currently stand, genocide of muslims is a high possibility. It is not desirable, it is not required, it is not the only possible outcome that anyone is asking for but, it is a possibility, given the trends.

People like you harping on about this mythical far right threat are not making it any easier to prevent this possibility, mind you. Your sort spend so long shouting down anyone who wants to stop the whole mess before it reaches that terrible tipping point, by closing off each option as it's reached, until only violence or surrender are left as solutions.

The one thing I absolutely hate about the internet is that people don't read what they write. They read what they want to see and just ignore the rest, so we have CS being accused of anti-semitism (he even predicted it would happen a few threads back) and we have people saying that this place is promoting genocide, when neither of these things it true. If anything we're trying to prevent that occurrence. Halting islamic immigration and sending the worse of them home is necessary, because the alternative is violence, either from them as they become dominant, or from us as we try and prevent that dominance.

Of course you won't read this either, I'm sure.

Afonso Henriques said...

Just wanted to say:

Racism is BS!
And what about the fat people! I have a fat brother and fat friends who are constantly "discriminated". This is racism.

And all those ugly people who are always "discriminated" by the beautifull girls?
Isn't that racism too?

The eldary, those are really discriminated by our governments in favour of the "ethnics" minorities.

----

"it might be that immigrants can tell which way the wind is blowing and that phony race crimes no longer achieve the desired effects."

Nice to know that the GoV comunity is not bying this. And I'm glad that those screaming "racist" "ethnics" got what they disearve: despize from the authorities.

"In regards to "in France, prisons filled with Muslims". Have you ever seen the French documentary "10e chambre - Instants d'audiences"? It is a very interesting look into a day in the life of a judge who deals with throngs of petty criminals most of whom are Muslim and sub Saharan African. The excuses they give for their crimes are priceless."

Yes Henrik, here is the same. But you will have to change from muslims to Brasilians and gypsies. I've heard excuses in television like: "When you are poor and live in the ghetto, you are discriminised just by the way the people LOOK TO YOU and then you feel you have to rob them TO BE EQUAL" And worst, the mass media was blaming the general public.

Here, many leftists say that the African kids who assault and steal the other kids in the playground do that because they are starving and are discriminated by their skin colour.

So, I have some questions. What about the other black poor kids who behave correctly? Why are they behaving normally? And why are the ones who steal much older than the average boy at school, like 16 years old when everybody else is thirteen? And if they are starving, and stealing to eat, do they eat nike snickers and Fiat Punto's?

" In Latin America black people behaved as normal people"

Yes Conservative Swede, but those black people in Latin America are the ones who suffer the most. But it is changing... Where do you think Chavez and the ones in power in Venezuela, Peru, Hunduras, Bolivia, Equador, Paraguay, tomorrow Colombia did get they votes from? And the socialist Lula in Brazil? Blacks or Indians, they are third world opressed minorities. Brazil is, in my view the worst case of all.

For example, Brazil's population is 50% white.
The National Football team - the players come from the lower classes - is more than 90% non white (I'll not say black, but they can be described as black); 10 out of the 11 titular players are not white. The only white boy there is Kaka, who plays in A.C.Milan and that for me is the fifth best player in the world after Messi, Torres and of course, the best, Cristiano Ronaldo. Well, maybe he is the second or third.

Anyway the oposite hapens in the "novelas" (like East Enders).
There, all people are white, except if the "novela" is socially aware, then 10% of the people are blacks. There are never indians and the blacks are always at the bottom. When the blacks came up, the only black cupple is the black mother and dad, all the other blacks happen to end up with whites. The nonsense is such that there are never black individual bad personages, those are always white, blonde if possible. Then, when there are some people who are contracted to kill someone, there is always a black person who can help the one that is to be killed and then is killed by the white evil doing. More ridiculous, the indians here are represented by white carachters despite the fact that Brazil has a large Indian population and an even larger mestizo population.

In the real life, blacks are mistreated, treated like animals, they live in the worst conditions and the rich socialist whites are always concearned with them.
That is explendidly ilustrated in the great Brazilian film (it could have won many Oscards, better than the one of the Spanish guy who won the Oscars...) "Tropa de Elite":
There are phrase I can't help quote. The honoured black poor guy who want to be a nice policeman and has to work to hard where the "rich whiteys" get it all without doing sh*t says:
"Worst than the homicidal drug dealers that abound here, only the rich with social concearns. Those are the ones who find excuses to free the worst criminals..."

Anyway, they act as normal people because they have suffered too much and they know that if they scream nothing happens. That is changing though, and it is not taking the good path.

Last noght, talking to a Brazilian friend (who's in Brazil) about immigration to Europe he said: "You know what we say here to the Brazilians who go to Portugal? We say, stay away from the Brazilians there, the worst of them (us, the Brazilians) are overthere in Portugal"

All the Brazilians I met in London were much different than the ones in Portugal (and for the better). As a group, obviously. It's getting to lenghty now.

" anti-semitism is caused by pro-Jewish groups? People hate Jews only because they play the victim role? Wow, if Jews had only known that in the past."

Well, there is a big diference between then and now.

"I seem to remember last time they tried it in Europe, Europe said a big 'no, thanks', but who knows, maybe it would work this time around."

Yes, and maybe you forget to read a book of History about the Jews in Europe so that you can understand that prior to 1945 the Jews were not so th victims in Europe. Quiet the other way around...
When the muslims arived, the Jews helped them and gave them the keys of Toledo (I think it was Toledo, wasn't it?). They saw the muslims as liberators, and many Jews still view the moorish Al Andaluz as a heaven for muslims... Sickening, uh?

"This Jew said it all about the Jews

"In numerous European cities the kids at school age are already 30% Muslim or more."

In many elementary schools, "ethnics" are already the majority here.
The face of the future is much more than 5 or 10% "ethnic". It worries me. You know, children are all sweet and stuff but when they get in their teens and after...

"we had quite a few cases were immigrants were not admitted to discotheques due to their skin colour."

Recently, in the entry to a night club there were a stupendous blonde girl and a black guy standing in line to get in.

The security guy responsible for who enters and who doesn't cames near the cupple, ask for the ID cards and some formalities and says to the girl: "Please madame, go forth" and to the guy: "You can not enter here".

A fight arouse between the cupple. It seems that the dating or whatever they had, had finished. The black guy went alone a long way back home and the girl went alone to the disco.
Being the one next in the line and taking that girl as a victim of brain washing for multiculturalism propaganda, I couldn't help but to give five extra Euros to the security guy and saying "good work, fellow"
XD XD XD

I am little bastard some times, am I not?

Also, in an ethnically pure (homogenious) Nations such as ALL non artifficial EUROPEAN NATIONS, racism can not exist because all people are the same race. What may happen is xenophobia. Completeley different.

Racism?
That is something invented by the peoples the other side of the Atlantic to get some slaves...

Bela said...

To Conservative Swede:
You wrote this: "
While so-called pro-Jewish groups' (i.e. leftist activist groups)"

I believe you made up this out of thin air: ALL LEFTIST Jews -individual or organization level -are the most virulent, vociferous Israel hater: Judt said "Israel is a historical mistake".
The majority of (leftist) American talk shows host, mostly Jewish, spouting off bile hatred against Israel's Jews.
B. Streisand will not go to celebrate Israel's 60. birthday...

Did escape your attention that the leftist Jews are organizing boycott against Israel? The anti-Israel proclamation at Guardian by the worst of the Commie Jews?
The pesky Chomsky vomiting against the Jews?
There is a profound confusion among people about the Jews.
Cant you see that the civil war is unavoidable between the Jews, when half of the population wants to obliterate their own country and they do their utmost to exterminate the non-Marxist fellow citizens?
To me the stated goal to destroy Israel as such and disperse the population among the bloodlust Arabs is a genocidal leftist Jewish dream.

Were did you get the idea that leftists are pro-Jewish?

Conservative Swede said...

Were did you get the idea that leftists are pro-Jewish?

I said that so-called pro-Jewish groups are leftist activists, not that leftist groups are pro-Jewish. A big difference.

Esther said...

Conservative Swede,


Also, for your information, the hypothetical genocide referred to by El Inglés refers to Muslims not to Jews. Genocide of Jews is more likely what you should expect if the Jihad is victorious. You surely get everything upside-down.


Ok, that's the basis of my argument. I don't believe that in a civil war scenario (or any other scenario getting to genocide, planned or otherwise), violence will be directed only at Muslims. As you bring in your examples yourself. SIAD and a little old lady (victims of anarchists attacking the extreme right), gays, gypsies (who said Jews were the only victims in the Holocaust?).

I'm trying to imagine the xenophobic frenzy needed to bring people to attack neighbors on suspicion of being Muslim (and it will be suspicion - you can convert at home, you don't need to inform any mosque), and I can't see how any other minority seen as 'different' and 'foreigner' will not become victimized. *That* is what I mean when I say the swastika is a bigger threat than the crescent - that the threat that Europe will denigrate into violence against minorities is higher than the threat that sharia would be implemented for non-Muslims.

I think, btw, that if people would be hunting others in the street just based on their religious affiliation and not based on their actual deeds - it will be a dangerous place for anybody to live, and it won't be a place anybody who appreciates western freedoms would want to live in.

As for El Ingles' article - the way I read it, and others unrelated to the blogosphere I've asked for their opinion, it's a call for genocide. But I suggest we drop it, since I doubt we'll convince each other. Besides, his call for banning Islam completely (regardless of whatever one does) and enforcing it by force is totalitarian as it is. Again, if implemented, it would bring about an England where no freedom loving Englishman would want to live in.

Bela said...

esther,
The abstract story that el Ingles delineated and stirred up considerable amount of emotion is a hypothetical European saga what Americans - by virtue of cultural, differences - will never digest much less comprehend.
I am European so I fully understand: Europeans are proud of their language, 2000 years of cultural history, religion and peculiar civic mannerism that bond people together and serve the foundation of a nation.

(By contrast, America - according to Bush, is only an "IDEA" not an actual nation.-Google it)

Then all of a sudden a group of ideologically motivated powerful elite inundate the unsuspecting nation with hostile, un-assimilated backward hordes of different customs...people will revolt.
Got it esther?
Yes people resent if they have to press 2 for French and compelled by threat of force to put up with barbarian customs.
This is not religious issue but religion is part of it because of it's influence on customs and individual behavior.

esther,
Jewish people love to trivialize and belittle the absolute horror what the Bolshevik Jews in Russia instilled on the population.
Bolshevik Jews later moved to Germany fomenting the Spartacus revolution with Rosa Luxemburg.
The last straw was when the Commies imposed the Red Terror in Hungary in 1919 and all the leaders were Communist Jews.
People of the time knew the horrors and sadly, the Jewish association with it...the rest is contemporary History.

If Jewish people again siding with the enemy like Commies back then, and with Islam now against the native population, then they learned nothing and they can expect sad outcome again.

Jewish people must not rile against native population by associating with Muslim invaders.

I doubt that you got it.

VinceP1974 said...

Bela: Not all us Americans are pollyanna utopians.. I agree with your last statement 100%

Esther said...

Hi Bela,

So now I'm being accused of being both and American and a Bolshevik Jew? I really need to make a list.

I don't really see why you jump to the conclusions you do about what I think, as it has nothing to do with what I wrote. I would debate the topic, but why should I? I'm an American, Bolshevik Jew (I'll keep in mind not to say anything against the 'native population', which would obviously never include Jews who had lived for generations in Europe)

However, I'll ask you what I asked Conservative Swede above (he didn't answer me). Replace Sweden with whatever country you live in:

Do you fear an ethnic Swedish minority in Sweden or do you fear for Swedish culture? Do you think there's any way an immigrant can be truly Swedish? If yes - how?

Felicie said...

Esther: "So now I'm being accused of being both and American and a Bolshevik Jew? I really need to make a list."

Yes, Esther. You are both an American capitalist Jew - the one who is responsible for usury, banking, sweatshops, exploitation, global conspiracy to enslave the world economically - as well as the Bolshevik Jew - the one responsible for Communism, terror, corruption of our culture, and global conspiracy to destroy Western Civilization. You are guilty of both.

Is Bela from Hungary? There must be a very powerful Jewish lobby in Hungary that is causing all this backlash and resistence (this is apropos Conservative Swede's earlier statement that if you remove the Jewish Lobby, antisemitism will disappear).

Bela said...

Esther
I tried to explain the nationalistic feelings of people outside of the States.
Please imagine the horror if a Thai, French, Spanish president would openly tell his citizenry that "your country is only an idea and not a real thing, so you don't need a national language, press #5 for Arabic."

You are accused of nothing.

You ask:
Do you fear an ethnic Swedish minority in Sweden or do you fear for Swedish culture? Do you think there's any way an immigrant can be truly Swedish? If yes - how?

The ethnic minority will create a "clash of civilization" (Huntington) if it's incapable to assimilate because of conflicting moral-cultural standards and creeds. Islamist are very aggressive and easily aggravate the majority by revolting, (Paris) killing, (Holland)raping (Sweden) the host nation citizenry.
They will, be sure, create havoc when their number soar. So I fear because when an ethnic minority reaches a certain threshold they will be the source of all kind of societal tension and if the ruling socialist elite insist on changing our laws, customs to accommodate their alien culture (scarifying goats on Paris' streets)then you will see the birth of an Autocratic regime (Putin) that will silence by all means the Islamist and THEIR SUPPORTERS! You know what I mean.

I don't fear the loss of XXX country culture because it's hereditary and cannot be taken away within 100 years.

Even though many EU country have non white politicians I believe non white (non-JudeoChristian)can never be truly accepted within our lifetime.

Europeans will not tolerate for long a Soros, Chomsky, Tony Judt,
Zinn, Code Pink etc. vituperated ranting against their own country but they will be chased away from the nation or stoned to death (sarcasm). And when the fact becoming known that above referenced individuals are all of Jewish lineage then the Jewish grocer will suffer because Soros, Chomsky is protected by Mammon.

latté island said...

Bela, George Bush isn't exactly popular anymore. I voted for him, but I'm just waiting for him to go away, and so are many people.
When he and other traitors go on about our country being an idea, only liberals, i.e. people who aren't very patriotic anyway, agree.

Didn't you mention you live in Texas? If you went into a bar in Texas and told people America is only an idea, what would happen? Please don't try this, I like your comments and would miss you.

Bela said...

felicie
I was born in Hungary but I am no longer living there.
For your understanding: Eastern and Western EU are two different entities which have nothing in common with each other.

Hungary lost WWI and the Communist took over the country and implemented the Red Terror.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Hungary)

Béla Kun, born Béla Kohn, was a Hungarian Communist politician, who ruled Hungary as the Hungarian Soviet Republic for a brief period in 1919.
Béla Magyarized his birth surname, Kohn, to Kun in 1906. Although Kun was hostile to all forms of religion, his Jewish roots and advocacy of revolutionary communism resulted in hatred for him - and other Hungarian Jews - who were viewed as accomplices in the anti-Christian atrocities that followed his accession to power.

After the fall of Communism, most of the leaders escaped to Moscow but they returned after WWII and with the help of the Soviet Army they assumed power again.
Red Terror #2 ensued.
The Jews who survived the Holocaust emigrated to rebuild Israel, others came to America but a stubborn, dedicated, genocidal classic Bolshevik group from Stalin's circle remained and terrorized the population.
Unfortunately, as I said, the Jewish intelligentsia left for the West but those who stayed were the bloody executioners of Stalin's orders including the chief torturer at the Gulag.
Today: There is no Jewish lobby in Hungary. The majority belong to the Communist Party so the people associate the Jews with the Communist Party and they are ub-liked.
That's simple.

Felicie said...

Bela said: "And when the fact becoming known that above referenced individuals are all of Jewish lineage then the Jewish grocer will suffer because Soros, Chomsky is protected by Mammon."

Bela, what are you accusing Jews of? Of being communists or of being money-grabbing worshipers of Mammon? Because these two quite opposite things.

Esther said...

Hi Bella,

Huntington was not speaking about ethnicity, he was speaking of cultures. For you it might be the same thing, for him I doubt it was.

According to what you write:
1. Culture is inherited. The son of immigrants can never hope to integrate.
2. Immigrants from non Judeo-Christian cultures (ie, non-whites, see #1) cannot integrate
3. Jews (who are white and come from a 'judeo' culture) are not considered Hungarians after living in the country for hundreds of years. (Exception to #2?)
4. All Jews in Hungary are communists (i must tell my Hungarian Jewish friends, I hope they won't be too shocked).

Did I 'get it'?

It is interesting though that a Jewish communist dictator will always be thought of as 'Jewish' (and Hungarian Jews did suffer because of that). A non-Jewish communist dictator is just.. well, Communist.

If you're trying to convince me that Jews have much more to fear from nationalist Europeans than from Islamists in Europe, you're doing quite a good job.

Bela said...

I believe I expressed my thesis quite clearly.
felicie please explain why do you consider as an insult when I say
"Europeans will never shill for a Soros, Chomsky etc.type of guys who are bashing their own country, apologist for genocide (Khmer Rouge), openly support Communist dictatorships and more. People would express their resentment and anger on the nearby unlucky and innocent victim, a Jewish individual - "a grocer" - because the real villain like Soros etc. is well protected and inaccessible.
But everybody know the lineage of these individuals hence the source of Antisemitism.
In this country (USA) these scum are called "Intellectuals" Ha ha ha....
How far can you twist this simple sentence? Is this untrue?
My accusation of Jews consist of what? Care to explain?

esther
I lived many years in Thailand, I was married to a Thai lady over there and I speak Thai ...but I can never morph into a Thai man even if I tried to do it every day. I cannot be Mexican either, you cannot make a black man to be Swiss watchmaker from Monday on, an so on.
True or false?

Your sentence #3:
. Jews (who are white and come from a 'judeo' culture) are not considered Hungarians after living in the country for hundreds of years. (Exception to #2?)

This is your sheer invention; - who said that and where?
And now, please try to understand what I intend to say.
The Hungarian Jewish intelligentsia like Edward Teller, Szilard Leo (both Manhattan Projects)and many more left Hungary, so did the Holocaust surviving families when they left to found Israel.
Those who remained joined the Communist Party for the most part, or supported it for personal benefit, or for fear of retribution for belonging to the bourgeois class.
These undeniable historical facts left a bitter taste in the society at large and this is the current basis of Antisemitism.

Dymphna said...

latté island --

You say you are waiting for George Bush to just "go away."

I was,too, until I saw the choices were are being given to replace him.

Now isn't that God's little joke? I think the period where He was reputed to take care of "drunks, fools, and America" is over.

The next four years are going to be awful, no matter who wins this election.

And George? He can't wait to get away back to the ranch in Texas with his wife and his hunting dogs. As he said, he's just waiting for a grandchild...and when the child is old enough George is taking him hunting.

Meanwhile, Crawford, Texas can't wait for him to come home and for the media to go away.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

this is apropos Conservative Swede's earlier statement that if you remove the Jewish Lobby, antisemitism will disappear

I said "most of". And "most of" is very different from "all of". I'm not stupid, my dear friend. And the answer is already in the overall point I've been trying to hammer through. Here in it's corollary version: there will always been resentment expressed between different ethnic groups. And as the Jews are an ethnic group, just as other ethnic groups (and no different from that aspect) resentment will continue both against Jews, and from Jews against others. This follows very clearly from what I have already stated.

A Jewish lobby will of course always exist too. This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that in a society where special interest groups are no longer explicitly encouraged to play the victimization theater and make phony charges, the Jewish lobbies' character of leftist activists--which is the dominant picture today--will disappear. In such a society the politicized concepts of "racism" and "anti-semitism" will fade away, and thereby the major part of the phenomena themselves (as they are perceived).

Jews indeed do have a special plight historically, as the homeless people. Even though Jews again have a home country, Jewish culture has been formed in a time of its absence. It's a tough situation, but I fail to understand the tendency to put the blame of this predicament on the host countries (blame the Romans if anyone). Jews have chosen Christian nations before others. And when we speak of other ethnic groups we always say that they come here because they have it better here. And strange as I am, I'm inclined to say that Jews are no different or less rational than other ethnic groups, and that they prefer the Christian sphere because they have it better here (in spite of the historical tension that has always existed between Christians and Jews). Of course there was this horrible surge of a European Jihad-clone in the '40s. But we still find the Jews in the Christian sphere; and in Israel of course.

I do indeed understand why the liberal dream of a universal paradise without nations is especially appealing to Jews. But it doesn't hinder that this dream is flawed, indeed a Utopia, and the reason that the West is currently falling apart. The historical suffering of the Jews does not imply that this impossible dream has to be implemented. Where would the Jews go if the Christian sphere collapses?

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede: "I said "most of". And "most of" is very different from "all of". "

I disagree with this, because "playing the victimization card" is a very recent political strategy, but antisemitism has existed for a long time, and in a lot more virulent form.

I agree with the rest of your comment though.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

Surely the will be something left, but if we combine the effects of:
1) game over for "playing the victimization card,
2) removal of the people of Jihad from our countries,
then I think I have a pretty good case for claiming "most of".

What is left will not be negligible. But possibly it will be of no political significance; not more than Chinese-bashing. (Surely that would depend on the country though.)

The fact that the majority of the Jews prefer keeping the Muslims in the West and keeping them coming, while continuing demonizing the Christians/Westerners, tells us how utterly lost they are.

But let me make a comparison with another group: gays. There's an interesting congruence with the Jews. Both group are targeted in the especially murderous category of Islam, while both groups are "traditionally" conditioned to see Westerners/Christians as their main enemy, and attacking/demonizing them. In both groups there are high representation of prominent counterjihadists of the stronger formulation, e.g. Pim Fortuyn, Bruce Bauer, Hege Storhaug and Pamela Geller, Andrew Bostom, Bat Ye'or. Both lists are much longer, but you get the idea.

But so far this has been a lonesome avant-garde, even if these brave people made their groups overrepresented among the brave ones. But recently something very interesting has started to happen, with gays as a group: Dutch gays are starting to like Geert Wilders. If it's happening among the gays today, why not among the Jews tomorrow? It's all logical, and the Jews are certainly not stupid. I think they will get it right, given some more time.

Conservative Swede said...

Should be:

Surely there will be something left...

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede:
"The fact that the majority of the Jews prefer keeping the Muslims in the West and keeping them coming, while continuing demonizing the Christians/Westerners, tells us how utterly lost they are."

I have my finger on the pulse of what Swedish Jews think, so to speak. Believe me, it's not the majority, it's a quickly shrinking minority who think that way. I know several very liberal Jews who have completely reversed their position on Islam in recent years - people one would have never expected to change their liberal worldview. So there is reason for optimism.

On the other hand, it is still the majority of Jews who believe in multiculturalism and secular values. And this is a problem, I agree. I have lost some friends after heated discussions on school graduations in the church. But I think this problem is best addressed by the Swedish majority. They should, in no uncertain terms, arrogate their unapologetic, dominant position as the majority and assert their claim to cultural hegemony in their own country. Those who don't like it should be free to emigrate to Israel or whatever else is their country of origin. (This sentiment lost me friends).

For the record, there is only 19 thousand or so Jews living in Sweden. It's not a big percentage of the total population.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

I have my finger on the pulse of what Swedish Jews think, so to speak. Believe me, it's not the majority, it's a quickly shrinking minority who think that way. I know several very liberal Jews who have completely reversed their position on Islam in recent years - people one would have never expected to change their liberal worldview. So there is reason for optimism.

On the other hand, it is still the majority of Jews who believe in multiculturalism and secular values.


Every journey starts with the first leg, and so far so good. But even so, the overall situation you describe is the one of the majority of the Swedish Jews having come to a LGF sort of position. I concede that it's brave just to be pro-American in Sweden, but an LGF position still--most definitely--means being on the wrong side of the issue; and demonization of Westerners is still highly operative.

Furthermore, while I applaud the advances of the Swedish Jews (as described by you) they are of little significance in the bigger picture. What matters the most are the American Jews. And they are still firmly on the side of Charles Johnson--at best.

For the record, there is only 19 thousand or so Jews living in Sweden. It's not a big percentage of the total population.

Yes. And this is the reason why I described how I meet Jews when I travel. The only Jews I know in Sweden is one guy who came here from Israel (found some pretty blond girl), and a Jewish blogger who is also an immigrant. We don't have any Jewish quarters or such in Sweden. What you refer to as the Swedish Jews, I have no personal connection to. But given the important positions they hold in Swedish media, what you say is of great interest, and if that change is indeed so massive, wouldn't this become reflected in the Swedish media coverage, to some extent, at some point? We'll be able to keep a finger on that pulse here at GoV (the best finger on the pulse of Sweden, even for a Swede).

Bela said...

conservative swede
I see a developing situation quite similar to the Roman Empire at the time of splitting up to Western and Eastern (Byzantine) parts.
Western Romans did not resist the Germanic onslaught and with Romulus Augustulus they succumbed to the new barbarian overlords.
Historically, his reign has been used to mark the fall of Rome and the onset of the Dark Ages.

The Western, (Diaspora) Jews also follow a very peculiar, - nothing to do with Judaism - political path by hastening the demise of traditional Western civilization.
Their mentality was formed in the "Shtetl" in the Eastern Eu. Gethos.

From Wiki:

"To offset the growing Jewish national and religious aspirations of Zionism and to successfully categorize Soviet Jews under Stalin's nationality, an alternative to the Land of Israel was established. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast with the center in Birobidzhan in the Russian Far East was to become a "Soviet Zion". Yiddish, rather than "reactionary" Hebrew, would be the national language.

Eastern Jews ("Byzantine Rome") valiantly resist the Islamist hoards, protect their nation ISRAEL, preserve their culture and offers the best hope for the Jews.

(On footnote: While the USA denies the legitimacy of a national language -English- the Eastern Jews resurrected and revitalized one of the oldest language on Earth, Hebrew. Isn't that great?)

No wonder that Western (Marxist) Jews invariably bashing Israel, try by all means to de-legitimize its very existence, and harm any which way they can.

It's time to recognize the duality of the Jewish people: tell me please what is the bond between the atheist Marxist Jew and a Sephardi (Spanish-Moroccan) Jew?
Nothing at all.
As much as I despise the Western -Getho branch, I fully support and admire the real Jews of Israel.

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede:

"But given the important positions they hold in Swedish media, what you say is of great interest, and if that change is indeed so massive, wouldn't this become reflected in the Swedish media coverage, to some extent, at some point? "

Are you thinking about a particular Jewish journalist? I don't think the journalists will ever change their opinion. They are the enemy and will remain so. I am talking about regular folks, not the cultural elite. I wouldn't even go as far as characterize the majority's position as that of LGF. They are not there yet, only the smarter ones. Most of them probably still believe that Islam could be reformed, and it's just bad jihadis that stir things up. But so do most Swedes. In this respect, Jews are not more brainwashed that their hosts. But it would be inaccurate to describe them as being pro-Muslim and welcoming the Muslim immigration, as you did originally. The majority are not pro-Muslim, they don't welcome the prospect of more Muslims, and they do see Islam as a problem. Their eyes are opening up to the reality of Islam.

In the meantime, I am working on converting 2 Jewish friends and a Jewish neighbor to the idea of voting for Sweden Democrats. My neighbor is the biggest anti-Jihadi I've met in real (not blog) life. But he's been voting for Christian Democrats for many years, so I need to go slow. But give me time... :)

Esther said...

Bela,


Your sentence #3:
. Jews (who are white and come from a 'judeo' culture) are not considered Hungarians after living in the country for hundreds of years. (Exception to #2?)

This is your sheer invention; - who said that and where?


When you said Jews should not rise up
When you said:
If Jewish people again siding with the enemy like Commies back then.. against the native population

Do I not understand correctly that Jews are not part of the native population? But we're talking about Jews who were born in Hungary and whose parents and grandparents were born in Hungary.. no?

When you move to Thailand, I don't expect you to miraculously grow slanted eyes (ie, become ethnic Thai), but if Thailand was not a racist country, then you could accept Thai culture and be accepted as fully Thai. If you move to the US, your children will not be called "immigrants" if they fully accept American culture.

Felicie said...

Bela:

"the Eastern Jews resurrected and revitalized one of the oldest language on Earth, Hebrew. "

You really don't know anything about the history of Zionism, do you? Zionism was the brainchild of the European Jews. The revival of literary Hebrew started as early as the 18th century in Europe.

"It's time to recognize the duality of the Jewish people: tell me please what is the bond between the atheist Marxist Jew and a Sephardi (Spanish-Moroccan) Jew?"

What do you mean, in common? DNA, for one, as has been shown by genetic researchers in the last decade. They have common ancient history, common sense of cultural identity, and common religion.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

I didn't know you are a fellow Swede. Nice!

Two Swedish Jewish journalist that I would like to bring up are Robert Aschberg and Maciej Zaremba. They are particularly interesting in order to illustrate the situation. But I do not have the time right now to make the case interesting. Remind me to bring it up later on.

What you tell me about the change among the Jews in Sweden is really exciting to hear. It's a parallel to the example of the gays in Holland waking up in big numbers. Ted Ekeroth is not as unique as one would first think then.

Jews do have their destiny in their own hands to a high degree here. If they side with the Swedes instead of the Muslims, they will be well received as a welcome ally. And from what you are telling me, this is what is now happening in Sweden -- great! And the Swedish Jews are even ahead of the ethnic Swedes. But it will have to start showing also. So far all the visible Jews are siding with the Muslims (e.g. Aschberg and Zaremba) , except for Ted Ekeroth. But from what you are telling, this is bound to happen. And Jews that are patriotic Swedes have nothing to fear: except for the leftist stormtroopers, the Muslims, the traitorous socialist/liberal elites, the stigma of representing the swastika [there are a lot of leftist activist / PC commissar types out there, many of which are so-called "conservatives", that are eager to dehumanize such Jews as being neo-Nazis, thereby (knowingly!) providing the pretext for mob violence against you.]

Esther said...

But I think this problem is best addressed by the Swedish majority. They should, in no uncertain terms, arrogate their unapologetic, dominant position as the majority and assert their claim to cultural hegemony in their own country. Those who don't like it should be free to emigrate to Israel or whatever else is their country of origin.

I think it is a difficult position for Jews. On the one hand - Yes, definitely Swedish culture should have hegemony. It is Sweden after all.

On the other - what is the country of origin of a Jew who has lived in Sweden all his life? Many Jews do move to Israel when they feel they are no longer accepted in their own countries (see the example of France), but shouldn't a Jew who is also a patriotic Swede, not be allowed to fulfill the tenants of his faith? Ie, when it comes to kosher food, circumcision, not being forced into Christian prayer. Is there no way that he can be both Swedish and a religious Jew?

[as a side note, would you say the same if Israel did not exist?]

You speak of convincing Jews to vote for Swedish Democrats. They have a very convincing site, and I would subscribe to what they write there, but I can also understand the fear of the Jewish community.

Felicie said...

Esther,

I am absolutely convinced that the core of Sweden Democrats and, especially, their leadership are a decent group of people. They are the only unreservedly pro-Israel party in Sweden. I don't doubt that they have some members who are antisemitic and neo-nazi sympathizers. But so what? They don't define the party's politics. I am sure there are more antisemites among the Social Democrats. Sweden Democrats are the only reasonable choice today for counter-jihadis, nationalists, and Jews.

The issues you raise about Jews are very complicated. My view is not typical. I don't represent anybody but myself. Jews are a recent immigrant group in Sweden. The majority of them came after the war. Should they be allowed their practices? I would say, yes, as long as they have a clear understanding that they are the minority and as long as they do not try to impose secular values on the majority just because they feel uncomfortable around Christian symbols and Christian traditions. Nobody is forcing them to pray in church. But if there is a tradition in their country to conduct school graduation ceremony in the church, they should not fight it. They could choose to skip the church or they could choose to go there and not pray. What's the big deal? What if their Christin friends invite them to a wedding that takes place in a church? Would they skip it? Circumcision is legal in Sweden. I am personally against circumcision, because I think that a man should choose for himself about something as irreversible as that. I am surprised that Reformed Rabbis have not come up with some symbolic alternative to circumcision by now. But OK, let's not go there. This is as explosive as the abortion issue. Kosher slaughter is not legal in Sweden. Kosher meat is imported from Holland. (This is something that I don't understand, because I am not an animals' rights person. But, again, as long as the majority of Swedes have strong feelings about the way animals should be slaughtered, then so be it).

And I'll add another thing that is controversial. I do believe that strong Jewish religious identity is inseparable from the idea of living in Israel. Israel is absolutely central to Jewish faith. There is no other religious eschatology, as far as I know, that has such strong ties to a geographical place. This is why I think that Jews who feel very strongly about Judaism - keeping kosher, observing all other rules, etc., - while not living in Israel are being inconsistent. They are simply not doing what their book is telling them to do. Their choosing to live in exile is not logical to me. Many Jews are not very religious. But then it should not be a problem for them to live in a Christian society.

Conservative Swede said...

On the other - what is the country of origin of a Jew who has lived in Sweden all his life?

Do you consider that by answering that question that we sufficiently cover the different aspects of the composite situation of being a Jew in Sweden? My answer is: Sweden.

Many Jews do move to Israel when they feel they are no longer accepted in their own countries (see the example of France)

Tell me Esther, are the French Jews leaving France for Israel because of a surge of the Crescent or a surge of the Swastika?

Swedish newspapers recently described how the Dutch are leaving Holland because of the surge of Islamophobia. Could it be Islamophobia that makes Jews leave France?

but shouldn't a Jew who is also a patriotic Swede, not be allowed to fulfill the tenants of his faith? Ie, when it comes to kosher food, circumcision, not being forced into Christian prayer. Is there no way that he can be both Swedish and a religious Jew?

I leave to you to answer these questions since you are the one seeing contradiction here.

My only comment is that the Christian prayer that Sweden is so infamous for imposing on all its citizens, that I think that the Jews should be exempt from that.

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede,

Robert Aschberg is a scumbag. I don't know very much about Maciej Zaremba (I try not to read mainstream press) But I take your word for it that he is another scumbag.

I am not a Swede, but an immigrant. But I am a loyal and pro-nationalist immigrant.

Felicie said...

Oh, and another thing. I agree that Jews are undergoing a similar to homosexuals' political reversal. They have a long way to go though.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

Robert Aschberg is a scumbag. I don't know very much about Maciej Zaremba (I try not to read mainstream press) But I take your word for it that he is another scumbag.

My point is not that they are scumbags. And Zaremba is certainly not. And my point is not that they are typical Jewish journalists. They are not seen or presented as Jews, the vast majority do not even know that they are.

They are definitely very different personalities. But they have some things in common. Both have been lauded as fighting political correctness by the many Swedes so tired of political correctness. Both have strongly challenged the establishment and the established norms. But also both have been pivotal in upholding our pro-Muslim/anti-Swedish regime. This is an interesting combination, and made me take an interest in where they came from really.

I am not a Swede, but an immigrant. But I am a loyal and pro-nationalist immigrant.

Well, now you are a Swede. And ironically enough, the concept of being a loyal pro-nationalist lies closer to immigrants from other parts of Europe then it does to Swedes, even when it is about Swedish patriotism.

How come you know so many Jews here in Sweden? I do not even know where to find them.

Dymphna said...

This thread seems to have been going on forever...

Felicie said --

Robert Aschberg is a scumbag. I don't know very much about Maciej Zaremba (I try not to read mainstream press) But I take your word for it that he is another scumbag.

Felicie, I take it that you're a new commenter here. One of the primary rules re commenting is that they be civil. Ad hominem attacks like "scumbag" to describe a person's pollitics, character, philosophy, etc., are over the line.

There are a few other rules about moderate remarks, but this is the main one (besides four-letter Anglo Saxon words) that GoV follows.

Yeah, it's more work to actually describe what one doesn't like, but since few of us know the people referred to, a description of their work would help.

If that would take up too much time, just leave it out.

Another remark, to Bela, could have been omitted. Hostile rhetorical questions such as You really don't know anything about the history of Zionism, do you? can bring down a comment thread very quickly.

It's one of our quirks: civility first.

Conservative Swede said...

Ad hominem attacks like "scumbag" to describe a person's politics, character, philosophy, etc., are over the line.

Hm, maybe someone should tell Robert Aschberg :-)

Dymphna said...

Con Swede --

Well, if I knew Mr. Aschberg, I sure would tell him.

Here is what a commenter on another blog said of me...

sh**t, that was just the baron.
wait 'til/if RT posts something by Dymphna.
disagree with her and she'll rip off your head and sh** down your throat and you will like it.
why?
because she will tell you to
.

Of course, I politely disagreed.

Moi?? From the convent school? I wonder where he got that idea?

Send Mr. Aschberg to see me...though I don't think my upper arm strength is what it was since I dislocated my shoulder.

Esther said...

Conservative Swede,

I'll try to give a short summary of what I mean.

1. Muslim population makes trouble, minorities suffer (gays, Jews, Muslim women)

2. Local European population at some point says: stop. we're tired of strangers

3. Backlash affects all foreigners.

Felicie answered my questions quite thoroughly, your response was that I'm imagining a problem (as it was, I was referring to what Felicie said re school graduations).

The ban on kosher slaughter, btw, is from the 1930s, with all that that implies.

Felicie,

You are right that Jews are very much connected to Israel. I don't think this is the place to go into the theological reasons of some/many Jews who don't feel the need to move, but I do not really expect Jews to move to another country with another language, society, temperature and temperament, just because they're Jews. Besides, I don't think most Jews are religious, so why should they follow the dictates of a religion they don't really follow/believe in. Nobody would expect non-practicing Christians to follow the dictates of their religion.

re school graduations, I did not mean or think that graduations should be moved elsewhere.

Felicie said...

Dymphna,

I apologize. I'll phrase my remarks differently in the future. I am not a very new commenter here, I just haven't commented in a while. Robert Aschberg is from the Expo organization that I characterize as anti-Swedish.

Conservative Swede:

"How come you know so many Jews here in Sweden? I do not even know where to find them."

Being Jewish, if you know one Jew, you eventually know many. There are synagogues. There is a Jewish Center in Stockholm that organizes occasional activities. There is a lecture society, Paideia, that organizes lectures on issues connected with Judaism. It is run by the liberal and multicultural crowd, and the lectures reflect that, unfortunately. But occasionally, they have something interesting and neutral (not from the PC perspective).

Esther,

I am neither saying nor implying that Jews must go to Israel. Especially if they are not very religious. They've lived in Europe long enough to be considered as belonging there, in my opinion. I am just saying that now, that Israel exists, I see a contradiction between taking Judaism seriously and yet choosing not to go to Israel. If one takes the Jewish scriptures seriously and thinks about their meaning and message, it is hard to escape the conclusion that one's duty is to emigrate to Israel. Yes, I know that there are some ultra-Orthodox groups who believe that Israel is not a legitimate state, that the Messiah should come first, and the Third Temple must descend from the sky. But I am talking about mainstream religious people. Whenever I hear a Jew express preference for a secular, multicultural society for the sole reason that he doesn't like to be surrounded by Christian symbols and traditions, I always feel like saying: "but, you know, there is already a country where you could live as a Jew and not compromise, where your religion and way of life enjoy the dominant position. Why not go there?" I think it is unfair to demand that the host society becomes culturally and religiously neutral just to make one comfortable as a minority. I feel exactly the same way about Israel. If immigrants start demanding to dismantle all outward signs of Judaism and Jewish traditions in Israel, I wouldn't like it one little bit. The bottom line is: if you are a minority, there are some inconveniences and compromises that go along with it. I still think it is better to live in a world of diverse societies than in some ethnically and culturally homogeneous global "utopia."

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

1. Muslim population makes trouble, minorities suffer (gays, Jews, Muslim women)

2. Local European population at some point says: stop. we're tired of strangers

3. Backlash affects all foreigners.


So what you are telling us is that France had come to the third stage since a few years ago, and all since then, many a French Jews are leaving for Israel.

But the French must be very secretive about this mystical backlash of theirs against all foreigners. What's remarkable in France is rather the virtual absence of backlash, even against Muslim rioters. In England or Holland we see at least some sort of counter-reaction, but in France where Muslim rioters is legion, no sign of reaction. The Muslim "youths" are all alone in the streets burning Peugots.

But we agree about one thing, Esther: the Jews are leaving France.

Could you give us any example of how Muslim-population-trouble causes local-European-population to backlash against ALL foreigners? You say it's prevalent. I do not know of a single case.

Also: How do you explain that the Dutch are leaving Holland?

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

Your answer to Esther is an excellent one! Truly excellent. Well thought-throw, knowledgeable, moderate, sensible and full of love of humanity.

Felicie said...

Conservative Swede,

Thank you for this positive reaction. I am glad we are in agreement.

Esther (this thread will never end :))

"The ban on kosher slaughter, btw, is from the 1930s, with all that that implies."

It is probably true that the sentiment behind the ban of kosher slaughter in the 30's is inspired by the nazi ideology. But it has no longer anything to do with it. Now it related to the prevalent Western sentimentality about animals (I do love animals myself, don't get me wrong). It is along the lines of modern thinking that brought us the animal rights' movement and conscientious vegetarianism. Another strand of sentiment behind it is the ideology of contemporary Western secularism with its hostility to "irrational" religious practices.

Conservative Swede said...

Felicie,

Thank you for this positive reaction. I am glad we are in agreement.

It's a wonderful feeling to read someone that is more knowledgeable and that actually spent more time thinking about an issue than myself. To me this is bliss! It makes me feel privileged.

Esther said...

Conservative Swede


So what you are telling us is that France had come to the third stage since a few years ago, and all since then, many a French Jews are leaving for Israel.


No, I'm telling you that we're at the first stage.

I feel that i'm either not managing to explain myself, or that you have decided in advance what I think and feel and just ignore what I write, so I hope you'll excuse me if I don't repeat the entire logic of what I think yet again.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

No, I'm telling you that we're at the first stage.

So we're at the first stage, but the Jews are not leaving France because of that, but because of what they think will happen in the third step. And that they see this as an iron law, just like you. I.e. the are leaving for fear of the Swastika.

Is this what you are saying then?

In such case, maybe the Swedish newspapers are not so wrong after all in describing how the Dutch are leaving Holland because of Islamophobia.

Esther said...

Hi Conservative Swede,



So we're at the first stage, but the Jews are not leaving France because of that, but because of what they think will happen in the third step. And that they see this as an iron law, just like you. I.e. the are leaving for fear of the Swastika.


No, this is not what I'm saying at all. But I'm glad you asked..

I have never said that Jews do not suffer from Muslim antisemitism. Of course they do.


First stage:
1. Muslim population makes trouble, minorities suffer (gays, Jews, Muslim women)


Hence, Jews are leaving France, mostly because they suffer from Muslim antisemitism.

Maybe I should nuance myself better. When I say I fear the swastika more than I fear the crescent, I do not mean that life is a joy under Muslim rule or that Jews in Europe (and elsewhere) do not suffer greatly from Muslim antisemitism. It does not mean that I do *not* fear the crescent.

I mean, simply, that the way I see things, I expect Europe to become more and more intolerant of foreigners and that at some point, the Jews will suffer from that. In my opinion, that is a much more likely outcome of the current situation of Muslims in Europe, than for Sharia law to be enacted.

I might be wrong. Sharia law might have a better chance than Europe becoming intolerant of foreigners. That would be a disaster for the Jews of Europe, as well as for most other Europeans.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

It's remarkable that the option that Europeans would react appropriately against Jihad and Sharia without overreacting irrationally in all directions, does not exist in your worldview.

How come your main worry is that the European people will backlash against ALL foreigners, when there is no evidence for it? It's all based on your deep distrust of Europeans. I would even describe it as demonization, since you always bring up the Swastika, and how Europeans will attack all foreigners indiscriminately.

Of course the affirmation of the majority cultures will be strengthened, and the minorities will lose their status as special interest groups and their special entitlements, since the context of the global liberal utopia is now disintegrating. But if you think this amounts to a Swastika, and even that it's worse than the Crescent, then you are dangerously confused.

In fact, the evidence points in the opposite direction. And people as Felicie and Ted Ekeroth have seen it. Parties as Vlaams Belang and the Sweden Democrats are better friends of the Jews and their interests, than any one of the nominally Jewish lobby groups. You on the other hand are working against the interests of both the Jews and the Europeans. We do have a common interest in this, and it's time that you start paying attention to the reality instead of your fantasies.

Esther said...

Hi Conservative Swede,

I give up on trying to explain my worldview to you. You don't get it, or don't want to get it, I'm not sure which.

I think we might agree more than we disagree, but I guess I or you won't have a chance to find out, since you prefer to use your time to (can I use the word too?) demonize me.

I'll try to ignore it next time around, and not jump at the bait.

Have a nice day.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

since you prefer to use your time to (can I use the word too?) demonize me.

Well, I'm not demonizing you, since you are nothing like a demon. The picture that comes to mind is the one of a frightened rabbit.

I give up on trying to explain my worldview to you. You don't get it, or don't want to get it, I'm not sure which.

See if you can help me with just these things:

* I get the impression that you cannot visualize the possibility of Europeans reacting suited to the purpose against the Islamization, but only how they would overreact in a way that would be dangerous for all other ethnic groups. If I'm wrong about this impression, could you please point out where you had said differently.

* Since I'm for the moment left with this impression, I think that it could explain why you oppose action taken against mass immigration, and why you distrust the groups/parties that stand up for this -- if you can only visualize how this will lead to a dangerous overreaction from the Europeans, that will be dangerous for all other ethnic groups. But then you are also effectively opposing the stopping of mass immigration of Muslims. So your position effectively leads to support for a continued Islamization of Europe. Can't you see that this is the consequence of your stance?

Conservative Swede said...

So your position effectively leads to support for a continued Islamization of Europe.

And this is the real problem, that is already happening, and with plenty of evidence, and the reason why the Jews leave e.g. France for Israel today.

As opposed to the other scenario, which is based on speculation, and for which there is no evidence.

How can you claim that you speak for the interest of the Jews in the West?

Esther said...

Hi Conservative Swede,

Whoa.. who said I speak for the interest of the Jews in the West? I do not claim to represent Jews, I represent and speak only for myself.

You accuse me of jumping to conclusions, but you don't bother answering any of my questions, or trying to prove to me that things are not as I say. Instead of discussing the topic, you prefer throwing accusations at me. Calling me names is really not the way to convince me of anything.

Anyway, who said I'm pro-immigration? (besides you, that is)

If you intend to answer my questions, I'll list them again.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

Yes I think that you are very much jumping to conclusions when you take it for granted that Europeans cannot react suited to the purpose against the Islamization, but are bound to overreact in a way that will be dangerous for all other ethnic groups.

Your whole reasoning is based on this fundamental distrust of Europeans.

Conservative Swede said...

Esther,

Anyway, who said I'm pro-immigration? (besides you, that is)

If you oppose any and every actual action to stop mass immigration, then in effect you support it.

You don't present your position as pro-immigration, and you probably do not even think of it as such. Quite as Charles Johnson surely does not think of himself as a facilitator of Jihad. But your position is mired in contradiction. It's bound to be since it's based on a mix of fears, tunnel vision, and wishful thinking.