Monday, November 26, 2007

What Is Missing in Those Pictures?

Is there a polite way to point out another’s blind spots, especially when they erect the foundations of their beliefs on a pile of sand and then expect them to stand up to scrutiny?

I’ve been pondering how that might be done in this case, but there’s no way to get around the fact that Gates of Vienna is viewed by some blogs as having an inability to see that its allies are racist neo-Nazis while these critics cannot see their own fundamental preferences.

It does no good to point out that those we support — Sweden Democrats and Vlaams Belang — are doing a good job at attracting regular citizens to their cause…that “cause” in part being a coordinated effort to stop the dhimmification of their countries. This is a cause that no one on the left in either case will ever support. In fact, they have repeatedly demonized and attempted to marginalize anyone who takes off their rose-colored glasses and refuses to see the official EU diversity rainbow — which doesn’t exist in reality. For too many Europeans, this phantom rainbow is merely a pointer to the road to Hell.

James Lewis’ essay on the disinformation being spread by Belgium psyops, which I reprinted here seemed to me to be an accurate scenario about what was happening after the very successful CVF Conference in Brussels. The anti-Vlaams Belang Walloons’ security folks couldn’t let that success stand, so they began working to discredit it. They’re still tunneling.

They’ve labored hard and their labors have borne fruit. Any number of normally reasonable people have vilified us or argued with us regarding what we did in Brussels. Sometimes these arguments have led to estrangement from people we formerly considered allies.

Take our decision to leave The Infidel Bloggers Alliance. This choice evolved slowly, finally coming to fruition yesterday. It was with great regret that I decided it was time to go, and I gave the truth about our decision, but only part of the truth, since my concern was to avoid an argument on grounds that cannot really be argued.

The reason they can’t be stated is that our interlocutors cannot stand outside their own prejudices to see the point of all this. In fact, they’re not even aware of their propensity to choose those like themselves.

I have two responses to their accusations, one on process, one on procedure.

I’ll deal with the procedure first.

In “Time to Go” I made the point that the rules about posting had been changed without notice. We didn’t find out about them ahead of time. The issue only came up when we tried to post and found our efforts waaay down the page as soon as we put them up — without being notified that this was being done until we looked on the page:

When someone changes the rules in the game without prior notice, it means it’s time to go, because the meta-rule of courtesy — i.e., no changes without notice — has been violated.

It’s understandable that the blog administrators wanted to guarantee prominence for certain posts. However, since we were not allowed to post-date our own essays, this meant that our freshly-posted material sometimes appeared far down the page. So what would be the point of anyone else posting at all?

[…]

You know how it is: them what has the marbles calls the game, and if you don’t like it, go home. Amen, brother. That’s exactly what we’re doing. I just hope the door doesn’t hit us in the gluteus maximus on the way out.

Now, that last sentence could have been left out. But I felt tricked by a hidden double standard and wanted to express how that felt.

Pastorius left a polite comment of regret on my post, but Epaminondas’ comment was way off the mark. Besides not noticing that I wrote this post (is that a presumption of male authority? hmmm) Epaminondas said:

Baron, what you are objecting to is losing what other posters there never did.

Arrogate to themselves the top slot by post dating the post.

That is left to the admin, and as Connor McCloud knows, there can really be only one.

Just my $.02

If there are objectively, temporally later posts, they go the top.

But never the less, sorry to see you go.

Obviously, Epaminondas wasn’t in the loop regarding Pastorius’ administrative decision, so the Baron corrected his explanation with this comment:

Baron, what you are objecting to is losing what other posters there never did.

Arrogate to themselves the top slot by post dating the post.

Evidently Pastorius neglected to cc you on our email exchange.

The first time I that I put up an essay at IBA and found that it came up below the top post, I thought it was some Blogger malfunction, due to IBA being set to zulu time. So I changed the time on my post to correct what I thought was the problem.

Pastorius then informed me that only administrators were allowed to post-date.

OK, that’s cool. Then the next post I put up a couple of days later came fourth in the list, with the top post (yours, actually) being dated a full 24 hours ahead.

I noticed that the three post-dated articles were all critical of Vlaams Belang, “neo-Nazis”, etc.

Is that a coincidence? Hard to tell.

But it very conveniently highlights the opinions of the blog administrator and buries any dissenting viewpoints.

I consider that tactic to be inhibiting of any useful discussion, and — since my input was being effectively consigned to the memory hole by being pushed way down the page — there was no option but to withdraw.

You can put all the lipstick and rouge that you want on this particular infidel pig, but it won’t disguise an obvious illiberal ploy to keep alternative viewpoints from being seen at the Infidel Bloggers Alliance.

It’s very sad, because it used to be a great place.

Okay, that takes care of the procedural housekeeping. Change the rules without notice and you create a different environment.

That out of the way, I must now deal with process, because that is where the fundamental differences reside: in a house built by the blind on a foundation of sand.
- - - - - - - - -
Pastorius has stated that he cannot support Vlaams Belang because they are racist. I won’t argue that point — his mind is made up. But I will quote his words and his actions in order to examine the gap between his rhetoric and reality. Here, he says:

By the way, I have had people arguing with me on this subject at IBA. One of the points that was made against my argument is that I am being purely selfish; as in, I have a multiracial family, therefore, I believe my point (against the BNP) of view is valid.

Just to be clear, no that is not the order in which things take place.

I have always believed that all people are children of God, and that, as such, we have the same rights, and ought to be accorded the same dignity. Additionally, it is clear to me that there are people of all races who are intelligent, and who are capable of, and willing to live in Western society.

I would ally myself with anyone who is intelligent, good, and capable of, and willing to live in Western society.

And, that is why my family is multiracial.

In other words, I married a dark-skinned woman because I believe in the values of Western civilization, not the other way around.

And on his blog he says:

Those who support Ethnic Nationalism are, at this point, in the minority in Europe as far as I can tell.

Well, given that point of view, one would think he would find women of other ethnicities and races attractive. But look at the evidence for his contention, which is contradicted by the reality in his blog.

There are many sociologists who would argue that choosing one’s own kind is a built-in part of any animal’s hard-wiring. Sometimes you can build a work-around and get your cat and dog to make nice, but generally they don’t get along. It is only with the ubiquitous Marxist programming of the Left foisted off on all of us that we have been made to parrot this specious thinking regarding “diversity”.

In fact, in “Time to Go” two commenters have a dialogue that lays open the internal contradiction between Pastorius’ words and what he chooses to pay attention to. And in doing so, they prove my point.

Ypp, one of our commenters on the “Time to Go” post, says:

At the Infidel blogger alliance they made a decent attempt to fight Islam with pornography. But I am afraid that won’t work. Since 1001 Nights and god knows how many virgins expecting them in the Heaven, muslims are not afraid of pornography. They seem to go with it pretty well.

But Conservative Swede notices something else, something vital about this feature on The Infidel Bloggers Alliance:

…Have you noticed? Only white women….

[…]

2 years and 12 photos of “infidel babes”, and only white women, all the way.. I know some people that would say that this looks kind of racist. Isn’t it said that the most widespread and effective racial discrimination is the deep structural one? [my emphasis -D] How their preferences always make these people choose people like themselves when they employ someone, choose a friend or a date, etc. This makes IBA look like an echo chamber of white people, the kind who live in bubbles of all-white communities. Of course I’m not saying that it is so, but it surely gives that impression.

I’m sure the people at IBA will innocently say: “But we prefer white women”. But you see, that’s a racist argument.

A Freudian would surely say that the way the people at IBA are so quick at accusing other people of racism is a projection of their own guilt feelings. Now I do not care much for Freudians, but surely IBA would want to do something about this, to appear more serious and less hypocritical in the future. Let’s say a black “babe” next time, and thereafter an Asian “babe”. And from there on staying within reasonable quotas.

I think the problem for IBA is that if they do not repudiate this their obvious preference for whites, they will look just like Dewinter. He expressed a preference for whites back in 1991, and it’s still haunting him. And unless IBA does something decisive about this, I think it will haunt them forever too. Actions speak louder than words. IBA will need to show actively in their “babe” page that they celebrate diversity.

So at the moment, due to his choices to post only pictures of white women only for the last two years, Pastorius’ behavior looks no different than what he accuses the Great White Racist, Filip Dewinter, of doing.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like duck… is it really a rose?

54 comments:

OMMAG said...

If anything is pointlessly alienating anybody it has to be this pointless neurotic self analysis.

Stick to you original tenets and those who don;t like it can go their own way.

Stop wasting time and energy on the futile.... get on with business.

Conservative Swede said...

OMMAG: "get on with business"

Do you have any suggestions? Anything particular in mind?

Homophobic Horse said...

I hope "Pastorius" still reads this blog.

Do you think "Western Civilization" is a constant?

The Western Civilization you have bought into is a very recent invention. I wouldn't even call it Western at all.

Here's why,

These days God is other people. This is the unspoken transcendant tenet of "our" civilization. "Earlier"* pre-Christian civilizations would start with transcendent postulates regarding the cosmos and then align themselves with the cosmos in an arrangement that would produce as little psychic tension as possible. Hinduism would be a good example, along with the Maya. But these days "God is other people", and now we allign ourselves into an arrangement that produces as little psychic tension as possible with other people - which is subsequently declared peace and enlightenment. Or "Openness" to "Diversity".

Ever wondered why nationalists are the only people left with anything controversial to say? Ever wondered why nationalists can make peoples hair stand on end, make them experience the sensation of "being in the prescence of visceral evil"? I have. And I discovered that the eeevil of nationalism is that it lowers the importance of other people. Nationalists are half-way to wisdom. Half-way can still be a distance of 50 miles to the bullseye but still half-way. Full wisdom is simple; people are of no significance whatsoever, but still I have to deal with you.

Liberals, like Pastorius, are trying to fight Cancer with the plague, and have nothing to oppose the deadly effects of their own beliefs (except for pornography, which doesn't work anyway, I can buy it at my local muslim owned corner shop). They have nothing with which to oppose the doom of Europe, their own ideas have caused it.

"Tenia brutally rapes Marcus's girlfriend Alex and puts her into a coma. ... This scene is filmed using a single, unbroken take, lasting nine minutes. After Tenia rapes Alex, he repeatedly punches and kicks at her head and stomach."

From a film called "Hostel":

"As Paxton begs for his life in German, the client gags Paxton and saws off two of Paxton's fingers with a chainsaw ... Paxton follows Vlasák to a public restroom, where he cuts off two of the man's fingers, bludgeons his face into the toilet bowl and slits his throat as he begs for his life."

Oh well, let the individual decide, so long as you don't bother me, I will die for your right to free speech blah blah blah

The upshot of sentiments like the above is people no longer have to think too hard about right and wrong, they no longer have to think at all, except align into a relationship with other people that produces the least amount of tension. And let's play a game, let's import every nationality or "culture" in the world and then see for how long we can base a society on the absence of thinking entailed by a famous slogan attributed to Voltaire. Thereby proving the slogan to be "universal" and therefore closer to the god "who is other people". As I have made clear.

Dymphna said...

homophobic horse--

The upshot of sentiments like the above is people no longer have to think too hard about right and wrong, they no longer have to think at all, except align into a relationship with other people that produces the least amount of tension.


This is perfect, but I would have also added, "and with the least amount of authentic intimacy."


ommag --

You must've seen something I didn't' in my post. Where is it self-referential??

Let me explain: the subject is being congruent. That someone's pronouncements need to line up with their behavior.

If you think such a basic rule is "neurotic"...wow. just wow.

livfreerdie said...

Horse, I know words have meaning, but what in the world did you say? Seriously, could you bring it down a notch for me?

Some folks try to walk the path of God, or Christ or other Higher Power and usually at the expense of others. The Good Lord put me here for a reason. Don't know the whys and wherefores but He has given instructions and created the time for me to read, pray and ponder. One thing I have learned is there is no Heaven on Earth, at this point in time, and pure evil walks among us trying to corrupt and/or kill us. Trying to walk that thin pure line while passing judgment on people's past indiscretions does not seem to appear in the above mentioned instructions.

Tom

Conservative Swede said...

D to O:
"You must've seen something I didn't' in my post. Where is it self-referential??"

Maybe he thinks you are a babe?

U.F.O. said...

If politics makes strange bedfellows...waging war successfully demands pornography. Did the W. European Allies in WW2 jump with joy at the prospect of an alliance with Stalin? Could Hitler have been defeated without Russia? That's a pair of no's. This is going to ultimately devolve to an us vs them life or death struggle. Islam vs the field. If you're not Islam.....you're on our side.

U.F.O.

Lex said...

Wow, Dymph's playing the mad queen again. "Off with their heads!" D, you've outdone yourself in nuttiness this time, and that's a pretty high water mark. Does Baron realize how bad your insanity makes him look? Just wondering.

Anyways, the IBA archives are not representative of all of the "Babes of the Week", not even most are posted there. Pastorius made me aware of your absurd post claiming that he is racist (ROFL!!) and has only posted white women, and I just had to see to believe. Anyway, as a former contributer, allow me to say for the record that the Babes of the Week have included many women of all nationalities and races, including Salma Hayek, Ayyan Hirsi Ali, and Pamela Geller, who is obviously African American. No, wait. Actually, though, there were numerous babes who were of African descent as well as Asian babes, and I refused the offer many times myself to be the "Babe". I don't remember all of the models' names but I remember them being praised highly for their beauty, and certainly remember the iconic first Babe pic of Lil' Kim (black) with the niqab and bikini.

So yes, the person (not Pastorius) who put the archives in place picked some random babes in the group and seemed to prefer the white ones. Pastorius himself is married to an Asian woman.

And that other blasted liberal, Epaminondas, not noticing that it was indeed YOU who wrote the post, how dare he! Of course, it must be that "brainwashing of the patriarchy" that has been preached for so long by the left. Or it was a mistake that you are blowing out of proportion to smear Epa. Hmm, a tad more likely.

Woman, where's your head? I mean, I feel bad attacking you since you seem to actually need the Patron Saint of the Mentally Ill and all, but this is just too much. Pastorius isn't a racist, Epa's no racist or sexist, neither of them, yet you are trying this hard to make them seem so? Because IBA didn't keep your posts front and center?

Please. You deserve to be mocked at this point. Keep posting, it's actually very amusing. Right up to the point when you are committed, OK?

Sodra Djavul said...

I have one more item to add, since it seems that multiculturalism, the abolition of the perception of "racism," and the whole "love all" puppy-dog rainbow gumdrops worldview frequently is cited as a religious mandate by politicos attempting to use religion as a pretext to bulwark their recent (i.e. within the last 80 years) invention.

While I don't want to go off-topic and get entirely too religious, within the Christian faith, the reason given for God's sowing of discord and multiple languages at the Tower of Babel was precisely because Babel (i.e. Babylon) had become the epitome of the non-racist, unified humanity many in the PC crowd suggest.

At least that what it certainly seems like when reading the relevant passages.

We were all meant to occupy different parts of the planet, with our own cultures, and with our own languages. Artificially shoving inferior cultures, languages, and yes, peoples together in a haphazard manner is idiotic.

A government, totalitarian or egalitarian, an oligarchy or a democracy, is a product of its people and the amount of oppression they are willing to tolerate before they force change. Is it really so misguided to view third world peoples, who for millenia have subjected themselves to countless forms of oppresion, as unfit to integrate with those who throughout the centuries have made a point of rejecting it on principle?

- Sodra

Lex said...

OK, here's Beyonce Knowles being white at the IBA.

I'll let Jaco leave some other examples.

Sodra Djavul said...

But Lex, you had to explain it.

Using the same burden of proof that was used to convict Dewinter, and the same standards of dismissal of all claims to the contrary, your explanation is irrelevant. Ergo, IBA is racist in their selection of Infidel Babes.

Yes, I am being difficult. But what's good for the goose...

- Sodra

Conservative Swede said...

Lex,

I was the one who wrote that. And as you see, if you look again, I was talking about what impression it gives. If you just put whites on the front, this is the sort of impression it gives, exactly like I describe. I'm not talking about myself, but about the many visitors that come to your site. It's a PR issue!

It's the same pattern as with the post-dating: the things that you have preference for ends up at the top, and the rest gets buried deep down. How many visitors to your blog the last year do you think have seen the picture of Beyonce Knowles? Exactly! And this is just what I was talking about.

You see, I started to become concerned about your image. And you have to admit that this clearly doesn't look good, does it? Just look at how you come here defending yourself and IBA! My suggestion for you guys is that you fix this problem, by immediately changing your Infidel Babes Archive page according to proper quotas in order to show that you celebrate diversity in the correct way.

If you already have pictures since before of Beyonce Knowles, then it's just so much better. Then I think you might be able to save the situation, You know even with non-white girls in past (buried deep down) this archive page has been up for very long time, without anyone reacting, and that certainly looks bad. You had better start doing some damage control!

Conservative Swede said...

Sodra Djavul: "Using the same burden of proof that was used to convict Dewinter, and the same standards of dismissal of all claims to the contrary, your explanation is irrelevant. Ergo, IBA is racist in their selection of Infidel Babes."

Hmmm... Sodra Djavul, I have to admit. This is very convincing. What fool I have been. No, we shouldn't let these white supremebabeists get away so easily. No, not me.

Brining up that picture of Beyonce Knowles from the dungeons -- bah! That's just anecdotal! And I suspect that she's a coconut too just like Michael Jackson.

And the thing that really got me thinking: I Lex is not a racist, as she claims, how come then that she feels that she's got so much explaining to do? Think about that for a while... I can only see one reason.

Pastorius said...

Hey, wait a minute, isn't Pamela a negro?

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2007/11/oh-for-gods-sake.html

Conservative Swede said...

And I noticed two more things:

1. Pastorius sent Lex here to deal with it. He wasn't able to face it himself.

2, Lex calims that Pamela Geller is African American. They are really getting desperate!

Conservative Swede said...

And now Pastorius comes here backing her up: "Pamela is a negro".

I'll just say: these people has got some issue to work with. And then I haven't said too much.

Epaminondas said...

Folks, in posting in various places, I have never seen FIT to take for myself the top place for an extended period by assuming MY thoughts superceded those of others in importance, via 'post dating' posts.

The most recent posts go to the top.That is the nature of events, and frankly 'crying' that the post get pushed 'down' because others are posting as part of a natural process temporally is ______fill in your own description

If that amount of attention is not sufficient for people who have important things to say, they shouldn't be at group blogs. It seems self evidently egalitarian, and will keep the freshest item at the top.

I suggest we all concern ourselves OUTWARD, rather than continuing on and on.

Continued justifications, excuses, red herring defenses, good defenses, ad hominem attacks, factual attacks, paranoia, assuming things not in evidence, creating new arguments, valid and stupid...none of this is going to accomplish ANYTHING in terms of convincing anyone.

As I usually say to my arab 'friends', so sorry but is this not yet clear?

What personal pique is next? From any of us?

Is this all not enough?

Lex said...

ConSwede--begging your pardon, but I came here to laugh my ass off, yet again, at the insane rantings of the Dymphnomaniac. I contributed in the past to the IBA, yes. I don't now, it's not my blog, I've never even had administrative privileges. Never even seen the template. But the claims that a joke stunt like "Infidel Babe of the Week", which I later answered with "Infidel Hunk of the Week", all for the glory of a sense of humor that you folks apparently lack.

Pastorius just posted above your comment in which you claim that he "wasn't able to face it himself". What, not able to face a post on a blog? What, Dymphna has magic powers or something? It's a blog post, no one's scared. Duh.

And yes, we will contend that Pamela is a proud black woman as long as you contend that, well, all of the insane things you contend. Hey, if Pastorius and Epa are racist male chauvinists, then I may as well be a white Swede and Pamela may as well be black. In GoV world, everything is opposed to reality. We're not "desperate", we're mocking your idiocy and you don't even realize it. And I think we may also be black. Or Asian. Hard to tell.

Sodra Djavul said...

Remember, it's all for your own good.

Eventually, we'll be able to celebrate the diversity of African and Asian leprechauns adorning our boxes of Lucky Charms.

We'll see bald-headed Asians, Arabs, and Hispanics adorning our cleaning products. Not Africans, mind you. That celebration of diversity could land us in a heap of trouble.

Remember: Promiscuity is a citizen's duty. Everyone belongs to everyone else.

- Sodra

Baron Bodissey said...

Epaminondas, old chap...

The most recent posts go to the top.That is the nature of events, and frankly 'crying' that the post get pushed 'down' because others are posting as part of a natural process temporally is ______fill in your own description

Either you are being disingenuous, or Pastorius really didn't tell you what he was doing.

Before the last time I posted at IBA, your post was on the top, and dated a full day after the current date.

Immediately after I posted, your post was still at the top, and still dated a full day after the current date.

My post was immediately below it, bearing current date.

Pastorius had instructed me not to post-date my essays -- only administrators were allowed to do that. So there was not actually a way to get a post at the top, unless one was an administrator.

Funny about that.

Perhaps there a way to explain how all this "is the nature of events", some arcanum of temporal metaphysics that I missed out on during my time at the Gymnasia...

Or maybe there's a simpler explanation.

Conservative Swede said...

Newsflash: IBA exposed! Having meetings with racist "friends". Letting then do web administration for IBA.

Pastorius post at IBA is very revealing. Pastorius says "the Infidel Babe Archives were always maintained by a friend of mine who is no longer working with IBA."

To this I answered:
>>So you are good friends with racists. And let them work on your site for you. That pretty much makes your site a racists site. Too bad you couldn't keep your house clean.

And now you post some pictures of some "brown" girls that you had hidden way down in the dungeons. I don't buy that. That's just anecdotal! I think there are still some good people here, but this site is sullied. Close it down and start anew somewhere. And don't bring in the racists this time!>>

Pastorius is now on the defense. He has realized his mistake, but is completely without answers or explanations. And he hasn't done anything concretely to denounce the stained past of IBA. He's just stalling.

Conservative Swede said...

Lex,

I contributed in the past to the IBA, yes. I don't now, it's not my blog, I've never even had administrative privileges.

To bad for you that you joined a site that had a racist working for them.

Never even seen the template.

How clueless are you really? You join a site with racist connections, and you do not check anything about it. Maybe you are a racist yourself, after all...

which I later answered with "Infidel Hunk of the Week"

Another whitey... Pastorius has more than one racist "friend" it seems.

Pastorius just posted above your comment in which you claim that he "wasn't able to face it himself".

Pastorius has now fallen down on his knees promising to make amend. Time for you to to the same thing. Patsorius has admitted the whole thing. There's no way around it for you any more, Lex.

then I may as well be a white Swede and Pamela may as well be black

Yeah, you picked the whitey for yourself. The pattern here is just too clear.

Listen, Lex. I think you really are a racist. It's just that it is on the subconscious level. But think about it for a while. Your white hunk, "I'm the white Swede", and so quick to defend that white supremebabeist page. There's just too much of a pattern here.

Epaminondas said...

Yes, and this is my final word on this truly WASTE OF TIME subject...

When I saw your post date superceding not one post, but SEVERAL, this puzzled me a great deal. I can see NO way to fix time while posting, and frankly, just imagine if everyone engaged in that practice.

I commented on it, and asked pastorius to place others INCLUDING MINE at the top, and he did, including those posted after yours, as it should be.

IOW - action to correct that which was temporally incorrect. Can an admin fix certain posts to the top? Is this worthy of just 'going home' because you can't?

This is the HEIGHT of haram personal blah blah yadda yadda, and I talked to your girlfriend after math, and she passed me a note.

END THIS. Just DROP IT ALL.

Or is it traffic?

You will not find me responding on this subject, no matter how provocative or even untrue or inaccurate your statements may be. I will not go further with this even if you post pictures of me and my mamma with Himmler and Marx.

I suggest that this is the wisest course for all.

Just think about it overnight.

There are other items to spend mental time on, no?

I have advised this all around tonight.

Just think about it, Baron.

Pastorius said...

I'm pretty sure Pamela really is a negro. She doesn't talk about it much, but she's not ashamed of it either.

Ask her for yourself.

Conservative Swede said...

Rational debate is all over for you now, Epa. Right? You have used all your available brain power now on the issue, and there's not possibly anything more that could penetrate our mind, right?

Lex said...

Is ConSwede real? Ooooh, I contributed at a site and didn't have the FBI do background checks on all of the bloggers. Moron.

Why would you guys assume that anyone at the IBA is really that good with the templates and everything? Why are you guys so paranoid? I mean, it has turned the writing here into humor without you guys even realizing it, this is better than Ed Wood, honestly.

But seriously, people who advocate what would lead to mass murder/ethnic cleansing calling me a racist? That's just TOO good to be true. I think Epa's right, I think it's a traffic issue. Greedy blogging leads to tabloid posts. Either that, or people really think this is an alternate reality here at GoV.

Sodra Djavul said...

Conservative Swede:
Rational debate is all over for you now, Epa. Right? You have used all your available brain power now on the issue, and there's not possibly anything more that could penetrate our mind, right?

Come now, Conservative Swede. Rational debate ends when a Leftist accuses an ideological opponent of being a Nazi. Rational debate ended when Charles started this.

As for Lex's unhinged statements about mass murder/ethnic cleansing, that has certainly befuddled me. Which Vlaams Belang policy is that?

I hope I get a t-shirt out of it.

- Sodra

Dymphna said...

Pastorius' claim re Pamela's heritage reminds me of a childhood anecdote:

My family was driving through Georgia one Sunday, and decided to go to Mass. We were in fairly rural area which seemed to have a variety of Baptist gathering places, but nothing for Catholics.

Finally, my uncle stopped the car beside an elderly black man and inquired about the possibility of near-by Catholic churches. The old man was very courteous and gave explicit directions -- about a mile or so away.

My uncle was curious that he knew the way, since it involved several turns so he asked the old man if he was Catholic, too.

A look of alarm passed over the man's face and he said firmly, "No, sir! II ain't Catholic, I got enough trouble just being a Negro."

Of course, that was back before the Revolution...African Americans said "negro" then...

Reminds me, too, of the book by the black sharecropper who helped start a farmer's union down south, and paid dearly for it. He later was the subject of a book called "All God's Troubles Ain't A White Man."

Turned out to be boll weevils he was talking about.

Conservative Swede said...

Pastorius: I'm pretty sure Pamela really is a negro.

Who cares, really. You are the only one here obsessed by what races people belong to. This is the third (or is it the fourth?) time you bring this thing up in less than an hour.

I do not know which is the strongest driving force for you in repeatedly bringing this up: your hang-up about other people's race, or the satisfaction you feel in using the word "negro".

Pastorius, I started this thing as a joke. But now I really think that you have an issue to deal with, at least regarding your attitude towards black people. There are many sorts of racists, you know.

Conservative Swede said...

Lex,

I contributed at a site and didn't have the FBI do background checks on all of the bloggers.

To bad for you. You ended up at a site with racist connections.

Why would you guys assume that anyone at the IBA is really that good with the templates and everything?

So you hired a racist to do it for you.

Why don't you just say that you are sorry for your murky past. Throwing the blame on a lot of irrelevant things doesn't really make you look good. Showing awareness about your problem is the first step.

xlbrl said...

This is the only thread I have read on Gates that is too often either worthless or noxious, and it is both. This is the result of fallout from the difficulties Gates of Vienna has described with those who would take it upon themselves to police the associations and thinking of others.
The standard that truth requires is that we love it more than we love ourselves. Clearly that is even not the case with many who are on the right side of civilization.
Gates of Vienna has always inquired to the truth of volatile and provacative issues with genuine humility, and it has received in turn what it has given. This will pass.
I don't pretend to conduct myself this way, but I know it when I see it, and so do these new critics. We always hate those we have wronged.

Lex said...

ConSwede--you're saying that while at Gates of Vienna, you do realize that? Just checking. Yeah.

Sodra, I didn't say it was VB, but it was certainly advocated by many commenters at this site, and not disavowed by either Baron or Dymphna, so they have either chosen to advocate policies that will lead to a really high body count or they were just too busy posting about Charles Johnson and Pastorius to catch that their site had become a magnet for those advocating real world force against Muslims in general, defined by religion and ethnicity, in Europe.

Want the proof? Go to Con Swede's little mash note blog to GoV. He's got all the comments up.

gun-totin-wacko said...

I must say, I find all these discussions of Blog Wars to be tedious, as do so many others. Dymphna said it right the first time- those that have the marbles make the rules. Likewise, if GoV wants to go home, and leave a relationship with another site, what of it? Unless there is a legally binding arrangement, it makes no difference to me. Especially when it's a site which I don't even read.

What I do have a problem with is the attitude of some of the posters here. Especially Lex. I've long found his attitude to be patronizing and arrogant, without any reason for the latter. (Though I will admit he occasionally makes a valid point). But I think he's crossed the line on this post. Calling Dymphna insane and making personal attacks of that nature is beyond the pale. There's no reason for it, it suggests a lack of actual argument, it's poor manners, etc.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but I wouldn't object if Lex was banned here for violating the rules of posting.

Conservative Swede said...

Lex,

ConSwede--you're saying that while at Gates of Vienna, you do realize that?

I'm telling you that you have a racism issue to deal with while I'm at GoV. And the problem isss????

Also you seem to be confused to think that Muslims are a race. You should read up a bit e.g. at Jihadwatch.

Sodra Djavul said...

Lex,
"Real world force against Muslims." The same Muslims invading their homes and turning them into third-world cesspools.

You host a site called "What would Charles Martel do."

So tell us.

What DID Charles Martel do?

I personally advocate nothing stronger than that.

- Sodra

Dymphna said...

gun totin'---

Divorces are messy things to air in public, aren't they?

But sometimes if you don't the anaerobic germs can take over because of the lack of light and air.

When you say: I'm all in favor of free speech, but I wouldn't object if Lex was banned here for violating the rules of posting., I haave to agree with you. She has pretty much stomped them into the ground.

But she's fond of me, in the Shakespearan sense of "fond" so I'm suspending the standards I hold everyone else to. She didn't come here on her own, she says she was sent.

So, until she goes, I beg your indulgence. It's not a matter of agency here.

Lex said...

Sodra, thanks for the reminder. I was trying to think of a new person for the name, even though I do admire what The Hammer did. Invading armies should be defeated and driven out. I just no longer believe that our enemies are entirely the ones I believed they were when I named the blog. I keep the name as it rather describes the situation I now find myself in as well. Standing one's ground and chasing out the invaders. Yeah, the name still applies, thanks for helping me nail that one down;)

Are you saying you advocate leading an army to defeat and dislodge a group of invaders? Please elaborate.

Dymphna said...

And probably a matter of time, now that I think of it.

As you know, g.t. wacko, we don't get many trolls here. I've often wondered why, since other bloggers seem to be plagued with them.

So now we've got our very own troll...who more or less stays on topic.

Kind of nice for us, hard for you, though.

I'll put things to rights very soon since the other parties to the divorce have gone now.

gun-totin-wacko said...

DOh! My apologies to Lex. I assumed it was a man, but I was apparently mistaken.

My bad. Otherwise, my comments stand.

Conservative Swede said...

Lex,

I do admire what The Hammer did. Invading armies should be defeated and driven out.

But if they conquer us with demographic Jihad and 4G warfare (all in breach of the Geneva convention), then we just just passively watch?

I just no longer believe that our enemies are entirely the ones I believed they were when I named the blog.

So you have come out at the side of Charles Johnson and Esther of Islam in Europe. That right-wing extremism is the real threat, and Islam and left-wing extremism are just are of less importance, and even distractions from that.

I believe that this whole spat is not at all rift in the anti-Jihad movement, but a refinement of it.

Dymphna said...

xlbrl -- I just saw your comment. You're very eloquent.

Yes, this is tedious, and I apologize for your having to witness it.

You have summed it up by saying We always hate those we have wronged.

In that sentence is contained the whole coda to this thread.

Lex said...

CS, as I said at IBA, I'm not going to lose sleep to argue with the likes of you, especially to come here and let Dymphnomaniac live off of my charity hits. But yes, I agree I think more with Esther, though I'm not sure which arguments of hers you are referring to. Johnson also was right when he stated that there are plenty of innocent Muslims out there.

I know that there are plenty of Muslims out there who wish none of us harm, and certainly are not all in "sleeper cells". What I've learned about Muslims is taught rabidly about Roman Catholics as well, and I do none of the things claimed about Catholics, things no one has done since before the Reformation. Dymphna, as she wrote in her post above about bigotry and Catholicism knows of what I'm speaking.

I don't want to do to others who are innocent and know less of Islam than I do what is being done to Catholics by extremist religious conservatives. Europe has a different set of problems. But the more I am around conservatives in real life, the more I find them at odds with my ideals. Fine, I can agree to disagree. But I won't cause harm to people who mean me no harm. People like the seditious "Islamic THinker's Society" in NYC? Yes, they are trying to subvert this country. They are actively attacking our country, and I think they should be dealt with. But I understand why those who identify as Muslim due to their family heritage wouldn't want to talk to people who have any part in the "counterjihad" movement and tend to paint all Muslims with the same brush. There are plenty of secularist/reformist Muslims out there, in this country, and I am all for them being encouraged to just assimilate.

OK, now I'll leave so that Dymph won't have to go on about how tedious I am and such nonsense. Go ahead, bash me for going back to my punk rock liberal ways. I really no longer care.

Wimbledon Womble said...

I don't know the history of this, but it seems like pissing in the wind when the wind is blowing your way. A war of blogs is quite a silly thing. Charles created a wave of bitterness by banning all thinking people, so he deserved blowback. That was a unique case. But this? I don't get it. Why not just leave and not post about it? Aren't there more important things to post about? Am I missing something?

Alexis said...

Commonality is variously defined. So is ethnicity.

Danes and Norwegians and Swedes can tell the differences amongst each other. I can't; I'm an outsider. On the other hand, Europe has become a breeding ground for "Muslim nationalism".

Also, there are many textures to ethnicity. A Hungarian Communist and a Spanish Communist may have a great deal in common -- Communism. When a Spanish Catholic marries an Irish Catholic, their common ground is likely to be Catholicism. When a white nationalist Afrikaner marries a white nationalist Swede, they have white nationalism in common. When an Irish Catholic marries an Irish Protestant, they have Irishness in common. Et cetera.

My point is that ethnicity is often subjective, with the definitions shifting from generation to generation. One should not assume that nationalism cannot adjust to reality.

This is one of the reasons why I have not lost hope for Flemish separatists. My concern is less about where they have been than about where they want to go. Will immigrants who assimilate into Flemish society be recognized as Flemish by Flemish separatists? I sharply remember hearing Jacques Parizeau blame the defeat of the last Quebec independence referendum on "the English and the ethnic vote". That attitude from the Parti Quebecois is precisely what Vlaams Belang ought to avoid. If only out of sheer opportunism, I think the leadership of VB can be convinced to take an expansive definition of Flemish nationality.

Snouck said...

Dymphna,

you have captured the guns of the racism-mongerers, have turned them around and are using them against them. Got them scurrying for cover and on the defensive.

Measure them against their own impossible standard.

Neat.

Regards,

Snouck

Trajan said...

I post as DaffersD and ajukdd.

Conservative Swede said this:

I believe that this whole spat is not at all a rift in the anti-Jihad movement, but a refinement of it.

I think it is a very necessary one, a clear the air sort of thing that is needed, before we get stuck in, I have to know that the people I will engage with have the stomach for this and not faint at the first smell that comes their way, after all I expect to be in one of those fox holes rather than talk about it.

The point over the picture of white babes on this other is very clear and relevent and not deranged, if you look for racism you will find it. Until the people who accuse us Europeans of white supremacy realise that then they can never be free of that stupidity.

I have read this blog for years and stopped posting because of Google, I bit the bullet and signed on again with them so that I can post here.

This is an excellent blog, and also I would like to say to the Baron as a European, thank you for helping us, thank you for organising that conference, and I would have you in my fox hole.

Keep it up.

Chalons said...

The inter-blog bickering is getting real old, real fast.

It strikes me as an excellent way to drive traffic away from your respective sites.

Lex said...

Dymphna, don't act all high and mighty about this when you're the one who wrote a post absurdly baiting people with outlandish accusations. You wrote the post and then act as if other people are just trolls for defending themselves? How much more transparent do you have to be?

And Snouck finally weighs in as if he's won an argument. Cute. He can't manage in emails, so he gets other bloggers to do it for him. Yeah, that's not being on the defensive, running to GoV when you're called out elsewhere. Please.

Bastante. I'll mock the hell out of this at my own blog, but I'm not posting here anymore. Dymphna already was gullible enough to do everything I needed her to do before, still doesn't even realize it either, I'll let it rest at that.

1389 said...

Our latest take on this whole LGF debacle:

Little Green Footballs - Hitting New Lows, One After Another

Baron Bodissey said...

Trajan --

Thank you! Good to see you here.

I'm glad to see that there's at least one person who understands what's going on here. :)

Archonix said...

Lex, there is a school of argument called "reductio ad absurdum", or reduction to the innane. Normally it's considered to be a tactic of the loser - often it is - but it has valid uses, as in this post, where it can be used to demonstrate the absurd nature of an initial argument byt aking it to its logical - innane - extension.

The argument is that some people are racist. The answer is that racism can indeed by found anywhere if you are willing to ignore the absurd lengths you have to go to to find it. I can find racism in your own post if I want... This post isn't "baiting", it's simply using the same tactics used by LGF - and, it has to be said, you - to demonstrate the absurd nature of the initial argument.

ProFlandria said...

Archonix,

"Lex, there is a school of argument called "reductio ad absurdum", or reduction to the innane. [...] it has valid uses, as in this post, where it can be used to demonstrate the absurd nature of an initial argument by taking it to its logical - innane - extension."

That is the perfect explanation for what has been happening in this comment section. However, it may not have been the best way to address the sensitive issue (inter-blog divorce?) at hand.

I have to consider the possibility that Lex may not have realized that commenters were not expressing opinions they actually hold, but artificial opinions formulated to prove a point. I think her comments were getting more strident because she perceived a personal attack rather than an exercise in absurdity...

It's worrying to me how fast this comment thread degenerated to the point where a meeting of the minds seems further away than ever. Reading this was like watching a slow-motion trainwreck. For the love of God, people!

Conservative Swede said...

I posted below comment at IBA, but Pastorius decided to delete it:
------------
Anyway, good post by Epa. What you have witnessed, from me, is something called reductio ad absurdum. And you guys seem to have gotten the message now and become aware of your wrongful ways. And I applaud you for that.

Comments from a number of good fellow counter-Jihadists:

Archonix:

"The argument is that some people are racist. The answer is that racism can indeed by found anywhere if you are willing to ignore the absurd lengths you have to go to to find it."

Trajan:

"The point over the picture of white babes on this other is very clear and relevant and not deranged, if you look for racism you will find it. Until the people who accuse us Europeans of white supremacy realize that then they can never be free of that stupidity."

Snouck:

"Dymphna,

you have captured the guns of the racism-mongerers, have turned them around and are using them against them. Got them scurrying for cover and on the defensive.

Measure them against their own impossible standard."
------------

Pastorius deleted it and answered:

Conservative Swede,
What are you? A commie union thug?

We'll do what we want with our blog.

We will speak out against the things that we don't belive in.

IBA has represented both sides of the issue you are concerned with because I wanted it to represent both sides of the issue.

Go start your own blog and stop telling others how to run theirs.
------------

I asked him in a subsequent comment how well he thought he was doing in "representing both sides of the issue". He didn't answer that question, but only deleted that comment.

But I think that Pastorius possibly is interested in hearing both sides of the issue at IBA, but maybe he's got some problem with me? I get that sort of feeling, and that he's not even listening to what I'm saying. Maybe if someone else tried?

Conservative Swede said...

Pastorius deleted it and answered:

link