Sunday, November 25, 2007

Making Filip Dewinter Dance

Boy Scout souvenir coin

The photo above shows the obverse and reverse of an old Boy Scout souvenir coin, passed down to me by my father among his memorabilia. As you can see, the coin was actually a promotional item issued by the Excelsior Shoe Co. of Portsmouth, Ohio.

On the obverse is a Boy Scout (presumably wearing Excelsior Original Boy Scout Shoes) riding a horse.

On the reverse is — gasp! — a SWASTIKA!

At last the racist and white supremacist nature of the Boy Scouts has been exposed! Everyone who has ever been a Boy Scout — from Franklin Delano Roosevelt through Gerald R. Ford to the future Baron Bodissey — has become tainted by the association with that foul symbol. Only a public repudiation of their past Nazi affiliations could ever begin to repair the reputations of those affected.

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Actually, as we all know, until about 1930 the swastika was a perfectly respectable symbol. “Swastika” is the Sanskrit term for the design, and was picked up by the British in India and passed into common English usage. It was known as a tetragammadion (“four gammas”) by the Greeks, and as a fylfot (“many-foot”) in northern Europe.

The fylfot symbol is of indefinitely ancient provenance. It has been found in Scythian tombs on the Central Asian steppes, inscribed on grave goods that date from the third millennium B.C. Up until the early 20th century it was widely considered a good luck charm, and was painted on heraldic shields, used for insignia by the U.S. Army, and carried by early airplane pilots.

But, like the jersey number of a great football player, it has since been retired. Until the word “Nazi” is forgotten, the swastika can have only one meaning.

The same cannot be said of the Celtic Cross. Filip Dewinter, a leader of the Vlaams Belang party, has found himself in hot water due to his evident possession of a Celtic Cross. Those who are eager to smear him as a white supremacist and neo-Nazi are certain what it means to him.

But the Celtic Cross can still have other meanings, even in Flanders, where it can be found on gravestones in the cemeteries of the Great War.

Since every other charge leveled at Mr. Dewinter has proved to be bogus, the Celtic Cross looms large in the current attacks, but its significance to him is not known.

Belgium is currently in the midst of the largest constitutional crisis in its history, with Vlaams Belang and Filip Dewinter playing a pivotal role in the unfolding events. Answering the shrill cries of “neo-Nazi!” being flung at him from across the Atlantic is probably not high on the list of his priorities.

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In response to the Infidel Bloggers Alliance version of my recent post, Epaminondas made this comment:
- - - - - - - - -
I advise you, Baron, in all good will, to FORGET Johnson, and deal with the tangible and factual words of Phillip Dewinter himself, who I heard give an excuse for ‘white europe’ which had it been uttered by Hillary, Carl Levin, John Conyers, or any of that ilk would have us all, both hysterically laughing, and ill.

You know him, why don’t you get HIM to see the error of HIS ways, and HIS symbols and HIS words instead, and repudiate such ideas NOT as a metaphor but as both wrong and politically impossible

I have had about a dozen people listen to Dewinter’s shire interview. None of them knew anything else (why would we know about flemish domestic issues), but what they heard. Every single person who has heard DeWinter has had the same reaction.

Except for knowing there was a fight going on and the edges of it, neither did I when I first heard it.

Dewinter’s words remain those of white supremacy, with an attempted leavening by Clintonista parsing. It is that, and his sliding around on it which convinced me, not anything by Johnson.

It is DeWinter.

To me that is the Schwerpunkt of this. I have heard NO effective refutation, nor has there even been much of any attempt.

No taint of white supremacy, NOMATTER the perceived situation can be allowed to destroy what is, to all the people I know, a bunch of nuts like us to begin with.

It is tough enough. Allies such as that make it HARDER not better.

I am NO newcomer.

Apparently it has somehow become my task to get Filip Dewinter, a respected leader in a prominent European political party, to “see the error of his ways,” and to “repudiate such ideas”.

The word “presumption” doesn’t even begin to cover such breathtaking prescriptions.

Anybody else want to go to Flanders and convince Filip Dewinter of the error of his ways? Mind if I watch while he laughs in your face?

But seriously — it’s ludicrous in the extreme to demand that a seasoned politician with a proven track record of serving the voters in his country justify his actions to me or any other American blogger.

For what it’s worth, this was my response to Epaminondas:

Epa,

Actually, I had a long talk on this very topic with Filip Dewinter when I was in Flanders last month. I was wearing the Danish-and-Israeli-flags pin that Anders Gravers had given me in Copenhagen last April. I showed it to him and suggested that Vlaams Belang might want to do something similar, in order to help dispel the notion that VB is an anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi party.

He said, “Oh, yes, we already have those. I can show you.” He explained about the strong support that he receives from the Orthodox community in Antwerp, and the fact that the Chief Rabbi of a rabbi in Antwerp is one of his advisors.

Now, you can say that this is irrelevant, that these Antwerp Jews are like the Jews that support Ahmadinejad, and that their support means nothing, even though there are many more of them who support Vlaams Belang than would ever support Mad Jad.

But consider these three facts together:

1. Vlaams Belang has actively and publicly courted support from among Jews in Flanders, and has received that support;
2. Vlaams Belang is the only party in Belgium that strongly and consistently supports Israel; and
3. The real neo-Nazis revile Vlaams Belang and sneer at their leaders for being in bed with the Jews.

Doesn’t that mitigate against there being any current anti-Semitism in the policies of Vlaams Belang?

I can’t see into Filip Dewinter’s heart. Perhaps he hates Jews, but finds it expedient to court them. Perhaps he used to feel differently in his youth, but has outgrown such a position, just as Robert Byrd has with respect to the KKK.

Or perhaps he has never felt any antipathy to the Jews.

In any case, I take Christ’s words to heart: “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

By their fruits, Filip Dewinter and Vlaams Belang are not anti-Semitic.

As for the demand that he repudiate his alleged past: why is the above not a sufficient repudiation? Why would he need to grovel before certain Americans who know virtually nothing about him or Flanders?

This is the quintessence of arrogance. Filip Dewinter is not going to repudiate anything based on our demands. He is not aware of our demands, and would consider them impertinent and irrelevant to his cause if he were aware of them.

Why would he need to dance to our tune in the first place? What good would it do him to abase himself before the American gods of PC?

O, Faustus, leave these frivolous demands,
Which strike a terror to my fainting soul!

Update: The discussion in the comments has led me to expand on what I said above.

Two things are at issue here, content and process. Many people, in the heat of the argument, mix up the content and the process. I’ll tackle them separately.

Process

The two parts of the process that I take issue with are these:

1. That a political movement must be pure, without stain, absolutely clear of any taint whatsoever of association with people and groups that are deemed beyond the pale.

This is absurd and counterproductive. Adhering to this kind of Manichean purity serves only to guarantee that no political action whatsoever can be achieved. No party has ever been successful without compromising and allying with groups that are at least somewhat distasteful. To aspire to this kind of whiter-than-white (sorry; infelicitous metaphor) cleanliness is to guarantee our failure and the victory of our enemies.

2. That American bloggers or opinion journalists can demand that a Flemish politician explain each and every tidbit of his history.

This is hubris of the highest order. To expect that Mr. Dewinter adhere to our standards, or even explain himself to us, is ridiculous.

Also, once again, it puts forward a Platonic ideal that is unattainable this side of the grave.

Content

In the quest for absolute ideological purity, self-righteous critics of Vlaams Belang are overlooking its very real accomplishments, which we should be applauding and supporting. Nothing that the party has done since the beginning of this millennium reflects badly on them.

Why don’t these facts matter more than that cross?

I’ll repeat what I wrote in the comments:

I honestly don’t know the answer [to what the Celtic Cross means to Filip Dewinter] — if I did I would post it — but given the time and the milieu in which Mr. Dewinter lived, and the nature of Flemish politics, a sympathy and/or association with “white power” groups would not be at all surprising.

The same can be said of other groups all across Europe. The reigning socialist orthodoxy has forced patriots and people who are proud of their culture into the same bed as the white power freaks. Once forced by the elites into that smelly little ghetto, all patriotic expression can be condemned as “neo-Nazism”.

It’s a nice little catch, that Catch-22.

That’s why I want to draw the discussion away from what Filip Dewinter feels to what he does. The behavior of Vlaams Belang is manifestly something we all should support — pro-Israel, pro-free market, in favor of smaller government, etc. And all the while they endure the taunts of the real neo-Nazis for being Jew-lovers.

Why doesn’t all that count?

I still say: by their fruits ye shall know them

Further update: See the comments for Carl’s question about the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp. After checking with some of my contacts who know more than I do, I found out that the rabbi I mentioned above is not in fact the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp. I don’t know his position in the rabbinical hierarchy. This is my own error.

I know the man’s name, but I haven’t yet received permission to post it.

94 comments:

Ed Mahmoud said...

I'm still rather suspicious of Mr. DeWinter, partly based on an interview of him linked at LGF where he came off sounding somewhat racist, especially the part about what would happen if his daughter dated a Black man.



Of course, going back to an older thread, Robert Byrd was a Klan Kleagle, and nobody seems to mind, or that Jimmy Carter didn't join the mixed race Baptist church in Plains until he decided to run for President in 1975 (and was closely associated with the leading Georgia segregationists of the day). For that matter, I believe the mentor Bill Clinton had in his early days in Arkansas, Senator Fulbright, was a noted segregationist, although I don't have links on hand, and, due to the late hour here in Texas, I'll leave that to others to find.


Anyway, I obviously have no way of knowing whether that is a Celtic Cross (been around for ever), or 'Odin's Cross' (one of the symbols of Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists since swastika displays are illegal in most of Europe), but I remain somewhat suspicious.

laller said...

Ed Mahmoud,

Like the Celtic Cross, the Odins Cross is quite old. It is unfair to link the Odins Cross solely to White supremacism. If i were a follower of Asatru, I can guarantee you I'd have an Odins Cross in my home(as well as a large Thors Hammer).
The problem with the cross on Dewinters shelf isn't that it's an Odins Cross(or a solar cross), but that it's a particular stylized version of the cross that is most often, but not exclusively, used by white nationalists/supremacists, today.

Mikael said...

It's not only boy scouts, that are guilty. Anyone who ever had a Carlsberg beer might as well start practicing the goose-step as this!
proves:

(Scroll down a bit to see the labels. Click on the pix for larger images.)

whiskey_199 said...

Let's just assume for the moment that Charles Johnson is quite correct in his assessment of Flip DeWinter as a neo-Nazi.

A thought experiment.

IF that is true, what conclusions can a sensible person from America draw?

IMHO, it would be:

1. When the sensible interests of the average working person are neglected by various Marxist Aristos, someone will fill that gap.

2. A repeat of the above point, but it's so important it must be repeated twice -- in politics as in nature, a vacuum is abhorrent.

3. Marginalizing neo-Nazis is done not by condemning them -- people who have moved to them for protection of their vital interests won't care -- but out-competing them for their core support.

Charles Johnson makes a capital logic error. He assumes that people who have already concluded that the elites have it in for them and plan to replace them with essentially a colonizing force of third world shock troops, politically and demographically, won't CARE if Flip DeWinter got up in Nazi Regalia and goose-stepped his way down Brussels main streets. As long as no one else carries their interests with them, ordinary people will only care about how effective a party is in looking after their interests. About Neo-Nazis and White Supremacy they simply won't care.

A drowning man does not care about his rescuer other than the ability to save him. And the average person in Europe is drowning. Drowning under PC-Multi culti regulations that aim to remove all traces of their nations, customs, traditions, and other cultural/political artifacts that act as their protectors. Drowning under crime and acts of racial/ethnic/religious aggression that go unchecked by a PC-Multiculti police and government. Drowning in unemployment and static economies with welfare payments from working people to (mostly) Muslim immigrants.

With no skills, money, ties, language ability, or even wish to go elsewhere. I used to dispute Col Peters but now I see his wisdom.

Charles Johnson feels that Americans or other elites, European or otherwise, condemning the British National Party, the NPD (these fellows are without a doubt REAL Neo-Nazis) in Germany, and VB, will make them go away.

Logic Error: their supporters have already broken away from PC, which in any case has labeled so many racist and Nazi that the words have lost any meaning. Besides they are as noted desperate and "stuck" where they are.

If anything you could compare the people who support VB to those who voted for say, Ray Nagin in New Orleans despite his abject record of failure. Nagin promised Blacks that New Orleans would remain a Black run city, retain it's Black culture (which having lived there for years, I fully understand the desire to keep it). Using essentially Black crime gangs as their own Serbian-style militia to keep the tide of Mexican laborers away and not colonizing New Orleans as they have large parts of South Central LA (which was a former center for Black culture believe me). Desperate and fearful people facing a large and seemingly more numerous enemy will do desperate and dangerous things. Talking down to them will not change -- they must be brought to feel their interests are preserved and looked after more effectively in other ways.

Let's just (again) suppose Johnson is right about DeWinter. Everything Johnson is proposing to do will make things WORSE not better.

In my (undergrad) study of German History there were a number of explanations for Hitler and the Nazis rise. The Marxist one was that it was the evil of capitalism and Hitler was foisted on Germany by evil capital. The cultural one was that there were in German culture volcanic fault lines which made Germans "evil" and therefore amenable to Hitler. The one I found most persuasive was by Adenauer, who himself as a former Rhenish separatist (a bit like DeWinter in that regard) and Catholic intellectual/reformer was imprisoned by the Gestapo.

Konrad Adenauer felt that no one besides the Nazis looked after the common man's interests, not the Communists, not the SPD, the Christian Democrats. So it was unsurprising that fear (of Communists taking away liberty and the little property working people had managed to get) and lack of competition led to the Nazis rise.

If you look at Cabaret (the film and play), there is little in Weimar that a young man looking to form a family would find attractive. Transvestites and gender-bending performers singing may be "edgy" but offer little in that regard. No other party in particular said to young men -- "you want to better yourself, join us and we will make that happen."

By contrast, FDR's New Deal was explicitly aimed at the common man and consistently told him that Democrats were on his side. Even if it meant that FDR turned his back on lynching and Jim Crow. Or ordered loyal Nisei to ugly prison camps (Manzanar is remarkably ugly and brutal even today -- I've seen it with my own eyes). Because being on the side of the average man trumped everything for FDR.

I honestly don't know if DeWinter is or is not a racist Neo Nazi. If he is, a bunch of bloggers condemning him won't do squat. Outcompeting him for support will.

laller said...

What I don't get is why noone is asking why European countries have to become smaller (and lesser) copies the US. Is it arrogance on the part of some Americans?
I understand that most americans don't/can't know the "blessings" of an ethnically homogenous society. There is however a reason why Americans are not among the happiest nations on earth, while many European countries are. We feel more safe, more secure and we have far more trust in eachother and society than americans. All that goes away when we become copies of the US. Robert Putnam found in a "recent" study that trust fades as a community becomes increasingly multicultural. Ofcourse, that probably doesn't mean a thing to many of the people bashing Europe and European nationalist parties, but we can see and feel the changes happening, and we don't particularly like them.

I'd also like to know something else. Charles, as well as many other american "counter-jihadists", are supposedly against deportations(in Europe). Yet, at the same time they are strongly against amnesty for illegal immigrants in the US. What is their plans for the millions of illegal immigrants? Is it to create a group of second class "citizens", just like islamists want for non-muslims?

P.S.
The US isn't even the best country in the world to live the american dream. The best country in the world to live the american dream is Denmark. We have far more movement on the socio-economic ladder than the US...

Henrik said...

I've attended Buddhist lectures where swastikas could be found as part of the decorations on the drapings. Sure, they were not ripped out of context, or given that 45 degree tilt that one Austria-German fellow applied to it.

It has been used for decoration for milleniums. It's still being used, in its proper context, where abuse by crazy Germans doesn't really count.

I like the Celtic cross, and find it cool - but prefer the original variant. There's no sinister meanin to that, except what comes from a certain Charles Johnson.

Takekaze said...

The Japanese warlords Hachisuka Iemasa (1558-1638) and Tsugaru Nobuhira (1586-1631) used swastika as their crests on flags. Oh my god! Nazis in 16th century Japan!

I remember that a group of Japanese folk dancers, who came to Germany last year, decided not to wear their traditional costumes (which they wear for every show), but instead wear different ones. Reasons? Their normal costumes had swastikas on them, and that is illegal in Germany, so they figured that it was better to avoid any troubles. The game Return to Castle Wolfenstein, for example, had to be changed into a German version where no swastika could be seen, even though you're playing the American agent who kills Nazis.

Underzog said...

My high school in New Hampshire also had a swastika (covered over by a carpet) on the entrance to the front door. As the high school was built in the 19th century (the swastika was put there too) it's obviously a Nazi plot /sarcasm

Rosenzweig said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
lowandslow said...

Did you guys catch this comment over there (IBA)?

Infidel K9 said...

Explain to me why you also have in your banner the exact symbol (celtic cross ) as David Duke has on his T-shirt


Kind of shows how ridiculous this whole "symbols" argument gets.

Blondie said...

What is meant to be wrong with pride anyway?
And why is 'black pride' OK, but not 'white pride'?

Archonix said...

The Isl of Man still incorporated a three-legged sun wheel in it's flag, though it actually has feet on its legs. I've seen three-legged swasticas in those "classic" fascist colours, black on white on red, used in some african countries by small groups of whites in the past, so there's a precedent for the three-legged variant as a white power symbol...

Someone better tell the Manx Parliament they're all nazis.

Also the buddhist bloke I saw walking around with the hens of his robe covered in swastikas. He must be a nazi too.

Archonix said...

about.com has an interesting little article about odin's cross, with references to other similar designs and a smattering of history.

Someone better tell the Basque nazis that the 70s are over...

Vasarahammer said...

Finnish Air Force has traditionally used swastika as their symbol.

Finnish Airforce in Wikipedia

The symbol is still in use in some flags and other insignia.

SwampWoman said...

Well, could be worse, I suppose. The White Supremacists (forces of all eeeevil) could have used Taranis' other symbol, the lightning bolt, and then none of us could doodle lightning flashes while sitting in a boring meeting pretending to take notes without being accused of racism.

Out of curiosity, I looked up a visual database of extremist symbols, logos, and tattoos. Thor's hammer is an extremist symbol. I had no idea. I suppose the politically correct thing to do would be to immediately dispose of my sledgehammers because they might be interpreted as showing that I have white supremacist sympathies. Oh my, another one I was not aware of. Hammerskins! Crossed hammers show white supremacist tendencies, too. Better immediately ditch the hammers and use large rocks to pound in nails. There are no large rocks in Florida, so perhaps somebody out there can send me some, as sea shells are a bit fragile for heavy-duty use. Work boots are also a white supremacist symbol. I wonder if I can get steel-toed Crocs?

the doctor said...

The logo does have elements that point to an association with the Celtic cross and the Solar cross . However I feel that it is a big stretch to link it with the Swastika .
Let us be honest ,in imagery it is possible to see what one wants and link one logo with another , based on the slenderest of similarity .

SwampWoman said...

A Pitbull, Rottweiler, and/or a Bulldog are also White Supremacist symbols.

Whenever we here in the Southern USA say "How 'bout them Dawgs?" and wear our University of Georgia T-shirts and hats and attend the games to cheer for them Dawgs, well, that is a white supremacist event cleverly disguised by allowing all races to attend. Pretty sneaky, if you ask me.

As a melanin-deprived person that is somewhat outside of the prison tattoo network, I sincerely hope somebody will let me know every time new white supremacist symbols show up so that I can immediately dispose of the offending bits of wardrobe. (Just kidding--anybody that tries to take my University of Georgia T-shirts WILL have cold, dead hands.)

ENGLISHMAN said...

Have you not had enough of this stupidity?if the americans want to be picky, fine ,i do not see that they were helping the cause anyway,And regarding the cause,it will need every man that we can get,only a fool would refuse help if he is drowning,and in view of the objective that we hope to attain,this will require the removal of every single muslim,"human rights" and all, and to be squeamish about who is or who once had national socialist leanings is truly absurd.Force will be required,there is no way to do this pleasantly,not even if you ask them nicely,though we would like to limit excesses,for this we need people who are not afraid of soiling thier hands,since most of the bloggers on both sides of this spat ,seem to show very little inclination to do it themselves,and meanwhile ,another half a million muslims have been born for our children to fight,for if we wish to keep all of our nations,intact,to determine our own futures,then we will have to fight them,for our governments have justified thier struggle,and along with the koran it is a poisonous mix,no-one can seriously believe that muslims will suddenly wake up one morning and become loyal gainfully employed citizens,they will not stop until they are the masters here,the enemy lives next door,he is not democratic like you,and he desires your end,for he will not share your space with you,and instead of really commiting to our goal every-ones immediate concern is political pedigree,saints do not do this kind of work,but we must,and if we do not make ourselves as strong as our enemy we will lose.

Baron Bodissey said...

Rosenzweig --

We're PG-13 here, so please employ asterisks judiciously.

Here's an example.   :)

Rosenzweig said...

It seems not to be very well known that in Germany a relatively small but vital and loud departement of the Pro Israel and Anti Jihad forces originate from the far left. They call themselves the "Anti-Deutsche" (the anti-german). In the small university town where I live they plaster everything with graffiti saying: "SMASH ANTI-SEMITISM!" or "F**k Islam". That of course points towards a certain adolescent quality of their performance but it is also quite refreshing. Imagine Vlaams Belang rallying together with the Anti-Vlaams against the Mullahs. The reason why parties like VB turn Pro Israel and get rid of their anti semitic past ist first of all a demographic one. The resevoir of young angry white men in Europe is limited; they are or will very soon be outnumbered by young angry muslim men. The leaders of VB and other european "identity" parties start to realize this and they also start to discover that european identity is a judeo christian identity which is in some way universal, anti-totalitarian and not dependent on the colour of the skin. And they hopefully realize that it was very much european jews, especially german and austrian jews in the 19. and beginning of the 20. century, who have been shaping and formulating that european identity.

Ed Mahmoud said...

I think people are misisng the point a bit, about swastikas used pre-Nazi era. It hadn't yet been tainted by association with the Nazis. That, and we are talking about the Celtic Cross or some variation thereof.


As far as Black Pride, White Pride, etc, a general pride inone's culture seems a fine thing to me, although pride in an accident of birth (can't choose your parents, or your skin color) doesn't seem that productive.

BTW, my wife is Hispanic, but we aren't really multi-cultural. Her parents, one a legal Mexican immigrant who became a US citizen, the other, a multi-generation American of Mexican ancestry, other than some preferences in food, are culturally American.

I, personally, have no problems with people immigrating to the US, as along as they come legally, respecting our laws, come in a reasonable number, learn to speak American English, and accept our culture. American immigrants did this for many decades, and its only recently, in the last few decades, have the PC crowd started encouraging immigrants to maintain their own culture.


The problem with Norway or Germany or Britain's immigrants isn't skin pigmentation, it is a refusal to adapt to the dominant culture. Of course, Islam, in its very DNA, is coded to seek to be the dominant power wherever it goes. Which is why I have no problem if people want to shut down immigration from Muslim countries.

rickl said...

Back in the 1970's a Greek merchant ship stopped at the port of Philadelphia with a swastika (tetragammadion) on its stern, which caused some commotion. It was blue on a white background, as I recall, and was "flat" like the one shown on the Boy Scout coin, not rotated at the 45º angle used by the Nazis. It may have also faced the other way (mirror image), but my memory is uncertain about that.

Archonix said...

Ed, the swastika has the same roots as the celtic cross. They're both sun crosses, pagan symbols denoting the power of light and associated with pagan sun gods.

I think the point people are trying to make is that this obsession with the celtic/odin's cross is unproductive because it has prior meanings that have a significantly longer history than the hijacking attempt by white power groups. Merely having a representation of symbol present doesn't necessarily mean that the owner invests any meaning in to it beyond the meaning it originally holds. For all we know, DeWinter could be a sun worshiper.

Ed Mahmoud said...

For all we know, DeWinter could be a sun worshiper.


Entirely possible, but the easiest explanation (not definitely the correct one, but certainly the most likely) is that DeWinter at least has some sympathy with White Power types.



Again, the US has former high ranking Klansman in the US Senate, and somehow I doubt Robert Byrd has a Paul on the Road to Damascus moment that suddenly led to his acdceptance of Americans of African ancestry as his equals. But again, I could be wrong.

Ed Mahmoud said...

I really should use preview, shouldn't I?

Orlando said...

Holy men

The advanced hydrometric exercises at Little Green Footballs are getting tiresome.

Like holy men, eager to show their immaculate character,
or like individuals of the species
Hydrometridae
(Hydrometra stagnorum),
they scurry about on the top of the water in
apparent defiance of basic laws of physics.

Full of fear that an unpure though or a forbidden word
might cause water lose it's surface tension and
sink the the Holy Men to the waist in the muck,
they censor any expression they disapprove of.


Fighting Taboos

In a podcast, Charles presents very reasonable arguments against
associating oneself with extremists,
if you are at risk being considered fringe, do give further reasons
to be considered such.

It is the same problem you face when you disagree with multiple bad ideas
currently held in esteem in society.
You can, at the same time,
attack at most one of society's taboos without risking to be labeled a freak.

Taking into account society's taboos and collective mistakes is a natural precaution,
but can be excessive.

Low point

Charles reaches a low point in his vindictive writing about the suspension Fjordman.
He makes a big affair of "anonymous" Fjordman's multiple, "dramatic" departures.
He provides no thought to that there may be good reasons for anonymity
(Charles himself considered anonymity in a post);
the "dramatic" part of Fjordman's exit is a product of Charles' own mind.

Little Green Footballs is a great contribution to the fight against Islamists,
it is hard to find a better summary of the latest Islamic atrocities.

The comment section is, however a disappointment.
It is full of onliners, greetings, repetitions, incomprehensible acronyms,
expressions of sentiment, insults, food recipes, etc.

Charles should help his site a lot by cutting this nonsense.

The other part is what is missing, a serious discussion on counter jihad measures.
Now it is basically a continuous endorsement of the American military operations.
Nothing against that, the Americans are doing well and they are the
only ones producing a serious effort.
The question remains: What else could be done? Where? By whom?

One may ask why Charles throws himself into these purifications excesses.
It is Political Correctness in an unexpected place.
Or is it unexpected?
An American would expect that the reason is money, fear of advertisers rage.
Speaking truth to power may be easy, speaking truth to money may be very hard.
A European would suspect ideological reasons, the like difficulty in dumping
society's fictions and stick to observables.

Political Correctness

Any activity should be based of facts, not fiction, wishful thinking,
or worse, the inversion of facts and morals, for instance in
the form of Political Correctness.

The existence of a pervasive religion, Political Correctness,
must, however, be taken into account,
just as the misconceptions and power of the Catholic Church must be taken into
account by a dissident like Galileo Galilei or Giordano Bruno.



Orlando

rickl said...

archonix said...
Ed, the swastika has the same roots as the celtic cross. They're both sun crosses, pagan symbols denoting the power of light and associated with pagan sun gods.

Maybe. Or maybe not...

Carl Sagan, in his book "Comet", offers an intriguing speculation. After describing the varied appearance of jets emanating from comet nuclei as observed by astronomers over the last couple hundred years, he then notes the widespread usage of swastika symbols in many cultures around the world. What if, he says, a comet once passed close enough to Earth in antiquity that its jets could be seen with the naked eye? If the jets were oriented just right, it could have appeared as a blazing swastika in the night sky and would have been seen in many parts of the world.

He says that in the excavation of Troy, the two oldest levels show no swastikas at all, but in the third level they were found everywhere. That level corresponds to about 2000 B.C., so it would be interesting to find out if any cultures used the swastika before that time.

I haven't done any independent research myself; I'm just going by what Sagan said.

Baron Bodissey said...

Ed --

Entirely possible, but the easiest explanation (not definitely the correct one, but certainly the most likely) is that DeWinter at least has some sympathy with White Power types.

You're quite right about what is the most likely, except for the tense of your verb; the past tense of the verb is more appropriate.

I honestly don't know the answer -- if I did I would post it -- but given the time and the milieu in which Mr. Dewinter lived, and the nature of Flemish politics, a sympathy and/or association with "white power" groups would not be at all surprising.

The same can be said of other groups all across Europe. The reigning socialist orthodoxy has forced patriots and people who are proud of their culture into the same bed as the white power freaks. Once forced by the elites into that smelly little ghetto, all patriotic expression can be condemned as "neo-Nazism".

It's a nice little catch, that Catch-22.

That's why I want to draw the discussion away from what Filip Dewinter feels to what he does. The behavior of Vlaams Belang is manifestly something we all should support -- pro-Israel, pro-free market, in favor of smaller government, etc. And all the while they endure the taunts of the real neo-Nazis for being Jew-lovers.

Why doesn't all that count?

I still say: by their fruits ye shall know them.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

I would pose the same question as Englishman: "Have we not had enough of this stupidity?"
Too many of us who agree on the true nature of the enemy of western culture continue to demand that a negative can be proven. Such efforts are akin to urinating over the windward rail.
When questioned in June 1941 concerning an alliance with the Soviets which he detested, Winston Churchill stated: (paraphrased?) " Should Hitler invade Hell I would be obliged to mention the virtues of the Devil in a speech to the Commons."
Sir Winston also stated: "There is only one thing worse than fighting with allies and that is fighting without them.

Locomotive Breath said...

The celtic cross??

Dang my dead quasi-Irish grandmother!

SwampWoman said...

I've said frequently that the current measure of denouncing anybody that raises concerns about unlimited immigration and terrorist activity in the mosques as a "racist" or "Nazi" is counter productive. If the only people that are willing to stand up for the country's culture just accept the labels because they are tired of arguing, then the current measures will be responsible for a huge resurgence of "Nazis".

Alex said...

Combine massive third-world immigration inflows with first-world failure to reproduce. Add the pernicious PC concept that “all cultures are essentially equal”; therefore, why assimilate? How long before Western culture disappears? Instead of a resurgence of Nazis, we should be worried about a resurgence of the Dark Ages. And worse …

SwampWoman said...

If people are going to judge me by the books on my bookshelves, have at it. If I were photographed in front of one bookshelf, there would be books about Navajo looms, Navajo sheep, Navajo customs, Navajo hogans, Navajo legends, Navajo healing ceremonies...but that doesn't make me one of the Dineh. I have countless books on ceramics, glazes, kilns, firing temperatures...that doesn't make me a potter, merely somebody curious about how it is done. I have books on Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Wiccans, Druidism, Satanists...doesn't mean I'm any of those religions, just was curious about them.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

If Dewinters big racist moment is saying he doesn't want his daughter dating a black man, then so what. Forget skin color. I wouldn't object to my daughter marrying or dating an American of Asian descent (I don't mean Persian or Arab either). Why my different opinions?

Well, black men in the US are 8 times more likely to be a violent criminal than whites. Who knows how much more likely to be uneducated or unemployed. 90% of those eligable to vote who do vote vote for the welfare candidates. Black American culture is bankrupt. Why wish that on your child? Even if she met a decent one, then the grandkids will be under pressure to spend their lives playing the victim card or else be branded an "Uncle Tom".

Asian men in the US tend to be as successful and intelligent and peaceful as any European-American.

So is it really racism to have a preference?

Baron Bodissey said...

Hey, y'all --

You made me think about this some more, so I added an update to the post.

Thanks for being so stimulating.   :)

SwampWoman said...

I dunno. A black gentleman I know from England said the black women here in America were too scary and only dated, and subsequently married, a white woman. Is that racism?

Conservative Swede said...

SwampWoman: If people are going to judge me by the books on my bookshelves, have at it.

Don't judge a book by its cover... Judge it by its bookend :-)

Michael said...

Jesus Christ. There comes no end to it.

As I have said before, I am a Vlaams Belang member myself. Since 2004, when the mainstream parties granted municipal voting rights to foreigner who do not even want to learn our language.

Would I have joined the VB in 1980? No. Those were still the streetfighting days. Even though then already, much of their message was true.

Is the VB anno 2007 clean? In my honest opinion, it is. I wish the commenters here could have a look in the VB monthly, for instance, provided they understand Dutch. There-is-nothing-extreme-in-it. NOTHING. Same goes for their manifesto and programme, check it out on the web.

As far as I know, Johnson has never lambasted Ann Coulter. I tell you: next to Ann Coulter, Dewinter is a schoolboy.

For what it's worth: here's a second post on our blog: Debunking Charles Johnson still easy as pie.". I'm not "pulling", but things must be seen in their context.

Baron, THANKS A LOT for your support. We will link to you this evening. Actually it's a shame we haven't done so long ago already.

Outlaw Mike/Belgium

SwampWoman said...

Heh. We're on your side, Outlaw Mike, just pointing out the foolishness of hairsplitting. Again.

Profitsbeard said...

Rudyard Kipling also used a gilt reversed swastika on his book designs, as his insignia, back at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries.

But the question is: what is the point of being concerned about "race" when it is the ideology that is the problem?

Islam is no "race".

Except a race to oblivion.

I prefer more intelligent allies than those moronically-fixated on biological flukes (which white or black or red or yellow or brown person chose their color?).

That said, Europe should keep out all who do not add to its Civilization.

And Islam subtracts.

Paul said...

Query: Several years ago as a youth, I hitch-hiked across the US. In the spring-summer of 1972, as I was trying to get a ride along the road to Tulsa, in Oklahoma City, I found a token along the roadway and picked it up. It was the size and color of the one in the heading above, but there was no upright swastika.

Unfortunately, I have lost the token. Like the token above, the one I found had a reference to shoes, and it looked very similar.

It had this phrase: LEKSANSMALERIE.
I remember this phrase/word because it was so unusual, and I may have slightly misspelled it here. Anyone know what it stands for or means?

Sonja said...

@Baron Bodissey

You miss the point. The swastika was a very popular symbol during the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th century. The Nazis used that symbol BECAUSE it was well known and culturally accepted all over Europe and the US. You even have the swastika in the US-military. The Nazis twisted the meaning of the swastika and made it their „Aryan white power“-symbol. It was perfect for them: they hadn’t to design an own symbol, it was already designed, they hadn’t to make it popular, it was already popular and after the Nazis made it their distinctive mark it was burned for everyone who was not a Nazi. So after the Nazis misused the swastika-symbol it is burned for everyone who keeps his sanity.

Be fair: would you use the swastika as your blog symbol and afterwards explain people that it has nothing to do with Nazis, that it is only a harmless Indian sun-symbol?

The Celtic cross has a similar history. In context:

1.In the second half of the 19th century Historism arose as a new art form. They mixed everything: Germanic history with Romanesque, Gothic with renaissance. So “Celtic” became again part of the German identity although the Celtic cross was never a German symbol but “Celtic” was Germanic.

2.Especially after the failed revolution of 1848 in Germany “secular” student fraternities gained in power. Originally formed against Napoleon as part of a “folk in arms” they now turned against the German Emperor and the church. They felt suppressed by them and asked for more democracy and freedom.

3.At that time it was nearly impossible to leave the church. You could convert from Judaism to Christianity (catholic or Anglican, all kinds of Protestantism or Orthodoxy) you could also convert from one Christian church to another but you couldn’t leave the church to become a “pagan”. So the “secular” student fraternities twisted the meaning of the “Celtic” cross into a pagan symbol (as did all these mystics and ultra-nationalists who wanted to build a new “Germanic Reich” at that time). They used the “Celtic Cross” because it was “Celtic” and “Celtic” was Germanic and Germanic was pagan (Odin). Now the Celtic Cross was renamed in these circles as Odin’s Cross. Since the 12th century the Celtic Cross was out of use in continental Europe after the Pope’s of Rome had gained more and more power and they used their own symbols. So they (the “seculars”) had a perfect symbol referring to paganism which was forbidden but the church and the authority could do simply nothing. Later these groups became part of the Nazi-ideology. So we come to

4.the painting of the battle of Tours and Portiers by Charles de Reuven (Carl von Reuven). Reuven was a very well educated aristocrat and artist. He KNEW that the Celtic monks had Christianized most of north and middle Europe and also great parts of France in the centuries before the battle. He knew also that the Christians in Spain were mainly Arians at the time of the batle. The Celtic cross here is shown as a symbol of the strength or power of the true believing Franks and the weakness of the heretic Arians who were overrun by the Muslims and who tried to arrange with them. Since the First Council of Nicaea Arianism was banned as heresy.

5.Now we come to the presence. After WWII the old Nazi-symbols were forbidden (but not the Celtic Cross which was still also recognized by the Church as a Christian symbol) so the neo-Nazis and right wing extremists were in need for new symbols they could use without being prosecuted but their supporters would recognize as their symbol. The Celtic/Odin’s Cross was one of them another one the “German Reichsflagge” which was in use till the end of WWI, because the flag referred to “Reich” and not to “state” which they condemned. Did you never reflect why right wing extremist/neo-Nazi groups which are raving anti-church and raving anti-Christian – like Voorpost, the security staff of VB – would use a Christian symbol? This doesn’t make sense, does it? (Me thinks you confuse the fact that Belien is a believing catholic with the fact, that most of the VB elites are NOT believing Catholics and their ideology is not accordable with the Catholic Church or Christianity as a whole. Therefore it is a special irony that the VB refers to the “Judeo-Christian”-culture of Europe and claims to be it’s savior.)
The Celtic/Odin’s Cross was now used as a symbol against Western hegemony (= US = Jews). From this time the Cross appeared all over Europe in right wing extremist/neo-Nazis groups.

6.DeWinter was socialized in and along these groups. But the more VB was successful at the ballot the less they could use the symbol because the average voter wouldn’t want to be identified with it. No, not all voters of VB are racists and/or neo-Nazis. A lot of them are protest voters who are fed up with the other parties, others are Flemish nationalists and others are losers of globalization and vote for VB because they promise MORE socialism and welfare (of course only for the “own people”).

Conclusion:

1.The cross in deWinters board is without doubt hundred per cent an Odin’s Cross and I’m sure it is from his time in the VB youth and other organizations. They now don’t use it openly and they are not amused if it appears on their party events because it scares their prospective voters. But it is one thing what they do when they want to gain votes and another what they think and do when the doors are closed and they keep to themselves.

2.To be open anti-Semitic became counter-productive. They couldn’t transform 30000 peaceful Jews in Belgian, more than the half of them fully assimilated, to a danger for Flanders. So they needed a more potential enemy: Islam and immigrants (mostly of them identified as Muslims and/or as blacks).
The strategy they use is the same religious cults use: tell the people the occident will perish if they don’t vote for VB (FPOE, BZOE, NPD etc.), the only solution to save the world is to vote for VB, the end is near. Short: they scare people to death and use their prejudice against aliens. And they do this with cherry-picking facts, using stereotypes about aliens, denouncing all aliens as prospective criminals or terrorists. Unquestionable Europe has big problems with immigration and integration. But we don’t need propaganda we need rational solutions and therefore it is necessary to analyze the problems – like for example the University of Bielefeld does (Prof. Heitmeyer) and to learn more about how migration happens. Then we can find workable and rational solutions.

3.Solution: VB doesn’t have an acceptable solution. Their “solution” reminds me on Hitler’s first solution for the Jews: deportation to Palestine. But you can’t deport more than one million people. So they are either liars or prospective mass-murderers. Theyr “solution” is a “simple solution” for idiots. They speak about “integration” but don’t say how the immigrants should integrate when they exclude them from the “Judeo-Christian-society”.

4.No, I don’t think that VB is a neo-Nazi-party. It is a populist party (in the worst kind of understanding) on the basic of the neo-fascist ideology. And they are an important part of the European right wing extremist/neo-fascist/neo-Nazi network with disturbing links to the ugliest neo-Nazi groups of Europe.

I know there is nearly no serious literature written in English about this network in Europe so most Americans don’t know what’s really going on there. But it is important not to ally with the wrong people otherwise the counterjihad-movement will be stigmatized as a right wing extremist/neo-fascist/neo-Nazi-movement and never gain success in the mainstream. You bite the hand that feeds you and marginalize the movement to these more than questionable (hate) groups in Europe and the US.

To be taken seriously the counterjihad-movement should have been independent of parties/party-politics, independent from left wing/right wing or whatever and with high ethical standards. Sorry to say but you missed the chance.

Aeneas said...

It seems from the whole discussion on this issue rests on the assumption that if extreme right wing groups have used a symbol from European history then that symbol is our of bounds for the rest of us. This is ridiculous as well as self-defeating.

If such groups co-opt our entire culture then what do we do? Throw it all away? We need to reclaim our culture and not be intimidated by the techniques of the extreme left who associate our symbols with intolerant groups in order to discredit us.

Are we concerned with perception or reality? The reality is that the left do not like the west very much. They don't like its history, culture or its symbols and are willing to take each component of our culture one by one until there is nothing left. Our culture and symbols are a form of defence against a leftist dictatorship and those on the left who want to usher in a socialist new order do not like that.

I have met members of Vlaams Belang personally and do not regard them as an extreme or intolerant group. They just want the best for their people who have been badly treated ever since the political entity known as Belgium came into being. If leaders of the party want to display the symbols of Europe in the homes then so what? After all they are Europeans and entitled to express their culture.

If the KKK adopted the Stars and Stripes as their emblem, would Americans pour scorn onto their own flag? I doubt it!

Conservative Swede said...

Sonja: The strategy they use is the same religious cults use: tell the people the occident will perish if they don’t vote for VB (FPOE, BZOE, NPD etc.), the only solution to save the world is to vote for VB, the end is near. Short: they scare people to death and use their prejudice against aliens.

The Occident will perish if not something is done. Who will explain to Sonja the steamrolling effect of demographic Jihad? And exponential growth doesn't take long. It will happen in this century. What is happening now already happened before, in the Levant, in Northen Africa. Christian lands disappearing for good. Nobody hardly even remembers. As well as large part of the Sub-continent, etc.

Any anti-Jihad resistance is obviously a "religious cult" in Sonja's view.


Sonja: VB doesn’t have an acceptable solution. Their “solution” reminds me on Hitler’s first solution for the Jews: deportation to Palestine.

A reverse immigration of Muslims is the only viable solution to the demographic Jihad. I definitely go further than VB here. However, mostly deportations won't be needed. Just transform the generous welfare hand-outs they are receiving now, into go-back-home-money as the Nazi "Jew exterminator" Sarkozy is doing now.

Sonja's view, apart for being hysterical, is utterly superficial. Jews have always been a minority, can only be a minority, and have always behaved as a minority. In her PC perspective, Muslims become a poor and weak minority in the same way as Jews. She's seems to be unaware of how Islam is Arabic Imperialism set at conquering and dominating the world, and how there's 1,2 billions of them (cf. to 20 million Jews). And they have been doing this with great success for 1400 years. Sonja needs to read some books about Islamic history. Spencer and Bostom have written good books to start with,

Sonja clearly share the same view as Charles Johnson and Esther at Islam of Europe, that right-wing extremism is the greatest threat we face, and more important to fight than Islam or left-wing extremism.

Esther writes:
"I fear Islamization because it is a threat to liberal democracy, just like the radical left and the radical right. Between the different possibilities, it is much more likely that a right-wing extremist group would get to power in Europe than it is that an Islamist group would do the same. The swastika is much more frightening than the crescent because it is much more realistic."

Talking to much about the problem of Islamization, in Sonja's view, is merely a distraction from the real threat: right-wing extremism. And it makes her think of how the Nazis treated the Jews.

Who will tell her about how Jews are treated in Muslim dominated areas? The Jews are already fleeing from Europe. But what does she care, she's too busy "exposing" heretics.

Aeneas said...

Halford Mackinder, the famous 19th century British geographer said: "Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland; Who rules the heartland commands the World Island; Who rules the World Island commands the World."

Soon if demographic trends continue East Europe, West Europe, Russia and the rest of the "World island" will become hostile to the United States and then the United States will fall. Therefore those in the United States who oppose the counter jihad in Europe are sealing the doom of their own country and their own way of life. Israel might be the canary in the coal mine, but Eurasia is the hinge of world history and Eurasia will fall within a couple of generations if current trends continue. Great Americans such as Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this. Contemporary Americans such as Baron Bodissey and Christine of CVF understand this while the likes of Charles Johnson and his followers do not. I suggest that the LGF crowd start to study history because the future of their country depends on such understanding.

Henrik said...

Sonja, I have the feeling you don't even understand what 'fascism' is about. You are most certainly barking up the wrong tree when accusing Vlaams Belang of fascism.

Let's look closer.

First, Nazism is quite different from fascism in one important aspect: Nazism is inherently racist, and anti-Semitic in particular. The close relation between Nazism and Islamism on this subject is documented here:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/ammunition

Nazis of Belgium (the few that exist) hate Vlaams Belang for being openly pro-Jewish and pro-Israel. The Nazis would rather team up with the Islamists due to this. On the subject of Nazism and Belgium, you might want to look up 'Rexism' on Wikipedia.

Fascism, then, has other traits. It is militaristic, as in Italy of pre-WWII, and as with the Kemalists in Turkey. Vlaams Belang sure wants a decent defence, but can't be termed militaristic.

A more interesting aspect of fascism is its adherence to the 'strong state' model, with close state control of production and the values produced - not least in order to siphon off wealth from productive work into the state to support those in power. The Soviet Union was a prime example of this. National Socialism in Germany was another.

Vlaams Belang advocates the opposite - a quite free marked with limited state interference.

Another aspect of fascism is its attitude towards dissent. Dissenters are vilified, run down by mob rule, purged and silenced. Quite similar to what is going on at LGF, and a main cause that fascist systems tend to stagnate after a period of forced growth and progress. Again, the Soviet Union is a great example, as was fasicst Spain, Portugal etc. Fascism simply doesn't work very well in the long run.

Vlaams Belang explicitly declares itself a strong supporter of free speech and other civil liberties. Chalk up another point against fascist tendencies on their side.

"In the quest for absolute ideological purity."

Actually, I think there's something really sinister about this. Isn't it evident?

We're humans, we're different. We make mistakes, and hopefully regret them, turn around and do the opposite. DeWinther is fine, and has been doing fine for many years.

He and the Vlaams Belang are fine allies, and with all the knowledge assembled at CVF, we can give *them* a hand to get rid of the racist smears against them. That will be a nice 'thank you' for the support they gave us. I've done so myself and it seems to work - people get quite muted when I present the comprehensive evidence.

Constructive pride in our cultural heritage and national identity is good, really good. That doesn't give us a free ride towards being evil towards others, be they immigrants or neighbouring countries. It's just this nice, warm feeling that motivates us to do something for the benefit our country. It's Good.

Ed Mahmoud said...

To reiterate, I'm all in favor of immigration, provided it is in limited numbers, such that the immigrants don't wind up in ethnic ghettoes and can't assimilate. Oh, and the immigrants have to be willing to join the larger culture.



In the USA, in the past, people feared first German immigrants, then Irish, the Italians, then Eastern Europeans, yet they all assimilated. Now East Asian immigrants are fitting in quite well.

Of course, before the welfare state, one had to assimilate enough to learn the language and become employable.

My theory about the large Black urban underclass- for one thing, I have Black suburban neighbors who are part of the dominant culture, but for those that haven't made it, 'Jim Crow' segregation laws kept them from fully joining the culture until the 1960s, and not long after, a welfare state was created in the US that removed the motivation for married motherhood and work.


Now, as said before, Islam is a different, its very DNA as a religion that also contains a requirement for a civil system based on Islam, that dominates all other religions, makes it hostile to assimilation.

Alex said...

There are certain things that the Islamic world has assimilated from the West.

For instance, Mein Kampf - as well as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion -

Conservative Swede said...

Ed,

In the case of the mass influx of Muslims, I think you will agree with me that it's more accurate to call it colonization. We are actually paying them , subsidizing them, to colonize our lands. And they are happy to do it, of course.

And this where Sonja is so utterly confused. Unlike what she seems to think, the Jews never colonized us. How could they (there's only 20 million of them)? I think the way she compares the Jews to Muslims shows us how ugly her mind is.

America has been the success story of successful immigration (at least it used to be). But the bulge of immigration around the previous turn of the century could never have been successfully assimilated without the restrictive immigration policy between 1925-65.

Today Europe will need to do the same thing. The same policy as America used then, of quotas proportional to the current ethnic composition of the country (except for the Muslims of course). And the whole system of immigration/"integration" must be turned upside down. I do not know how much you know about it. but it's utterly perverse as it is today.

whiskey_199 said...

Sonja -- Muslim immigrants in vast majorities do not feel themselves European, do not want European culture, and demand Sharia in Europe.

That is a recipe for disaster. No wise nation imports lots of foreigners with no intent on becoming natives. Ask Mexico, circa 1800-1835. The Filibusters who colonized Texas had no intention of becoming dutiful Catholic Mexican citizens and trouble was inevitable.

I am entirely sympathetic to the idea that Europeans, Guatemalans, Japanese, and Algerians are entitled to maintain the ethnic, racial, religious, and cultural balances inherent in their nations. Algeria would have every right to say "No" to masses of Poles pouring over their border and demanding an end to bans on pork, Kielbasa for everyone, and nude sunbathing on the beaches.

[The US was a special and unique case, with frequent long time-outs to absorb immigrants, an open frontier, and booming economy and culture that DEMANDED assimiliation "or else."]

hank_F_M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
hank_F_M said...

Baron

I found the source of the problem over at Little Green Footballs


Their protective head gear is defective.

:- )

Conservative Swede said...

whiskey_199: [The US was a special and unique case, with frequent long time-outs to absorb immigrants, an open frontier, and booming economy and culture that DEMANDED assimilation "or else."]

We used to demand assimilation in Europe too. But because Hitler was a Nazi this is nowadays considered illegitimate.

If immigrants are going to assimilate they will have to assimilate into something. And that something has to be the result if the country's history (otherwise it's something else than assimilation, typically centrally commended social engineering). In America that something goes back to a mix of settlers of different ethnicity. In a European nation, however, it's based on ethnicity going back to migrants coming just after the last ice-age. And that is evil, of course. So we may not demand assimilation in Europe, we have to adapt multiculturalism. The ethnic Europeans are now assimilating into multiculturalism.

Ed Mahmoud said...

C. Swede:


The liberal definition of multi-culturalism in the US assumes skin color alone assures diversity.

I will say, as a larger culture, while Western ('Judeo-Christian') Civilization isn't perfect (nothing of man is), I can't think of any culture that is better than it is, and many that are inferior. Of course, Islam, the culture of 7th century Arabia attached to pagan monotheism, is an inferior culture. (Note for example, one perceived sin of Western Civilization, slavery, was ended not by another culture, but by Western Culture itself, and that Islam has never really ended chattel slavery.)

The Aztec culture, of war against its neighbors, and human sacrifice, and the cannibalistic and warlike Caribe culture, were inferior to the Spanish civilization that replaced them, even if the Spanish also brought slave labor to the New World and might have been motivated as much by lucre and spreading Christianity around the world.


Not all cultures are the same. No matter what the multi-cultists want to believe.

Conservative Swede said...

Ed: "The liberal definition of multi-culturalism in the US assumes skin color alone assures diversity."

Yes, it's these guys who are truly obsessed with skin colour.

And as is also illustrated by your quote, a requirement for being an adherent to multiculturalism is to be devoid of knowledge about the actual content of different cultures. You'll have to be pretty ignorant to believe that different cultures are equally good, etc. And since they do not know what culture is, diversity can only be measured by a plurality of skin colours -- "Oh we need more people of colour code #336699!".

Ethnicity however -- to get back to that -- is not based on skin colour, but on the history of a nation. Take Spain for example. This is a good historical example of a mix of ethnicities and skin colurs. But ethnicities/cultures strive at growing together in to one. It can take some half a millennium. And (surely in the case of Spain) a lot of blood and violence. But the end result is very nice. Today.

Apart from Spain, Britain is surely the country with the most multi-ethnic history in Europe. In the case of Spain: Iberos, Celts, Romans, Arabs, Jews, Gypsies. In the case of Britain: Celts, Germanic tribes, Romans, Vikings, Normands.

It's notable how it's the languages of these two countries that are today world languages. That gives us something to think about. Ethnic mixing does not only improve the gene pool but ensures valuable cultural enrichment. But nevertheless, this molding together of the many ethnicities into one has in both cases been a painful, and sometimes horrible, experience. And surely, in none of the cases the original population would have chosen it voluntarily.

But surely ethnic and cultural mixing is good for a nation, as long as it doesn't go out of bounds, and is given proper time for assimilation etc. And the people are not abused by centrally commanded social engineering projects of racial mixing (which is not as bad as centrally commanded projects of racial purity, but of the same mindset).

Blondie said...

"As far as Black Pride, White Pride, etc, a general pride inone's culture seems a fine thing to me, although pride in an accident of birth (can't choose your parents, or your skin color) doesn't seem that productive."

Is 'productivity' very relevant here?
Are not many matters in which one may feel pride 'accidents of birth'? (such as beauty, natural abilities, etc.)

Conservative Swede said...

I have found that parents are generally very proud of their children. And surely children are an example of 'accidents of birth'.

Carl in Jerusalem said...

If DeWinter claims to have the support of the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp, perhaps he should give you his name. The last Chief Rabbi of Antwerp, Rabbi Alter Eliyahu Rubinstein of blessed memory, passed away in May 2006 after less than a year in the position. He was my neighbor before he took the position in Antwerp. The previous Chief Rabbi was Rabbi Chaim Kreisworth and he passed away several years ago. He taught my father in law in a Yeshiva in the United States before he took the position in Antwerp.

As far as I am aware, there has been no Chief Rabbi in Antwerp for more than year now. So if DeWinter says "He said, “Oh, yes, we already have those. I can show you.” He explained about the strong support that he receives from the Orthodox community in Antwerp, and the fact that the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp is one of his advisors." I'm really curious which Chief Rabbi is advising him.

RISE_UP said...

I sincerely WISH people would stop being hypocrites. In regards to the stupid questions asked of Dewinter about his daughter dating a black man or a lesbian. Any one of you who will say you have no preferences in your heart whatsoever is a liar. Dewinter has a right to desire WHATEVER for his daughter. No blog..no one man..NO ONE in the u.s.a. will have one single influence over the movement against islam in Europe.It will be the men/women on the ground, in the fight. So pale wimpy afraid of being called racist hyprocrites should stand aside and stfu. And by his fruits ye shall know him.And it is Flip Dewinter. Important to the coming explosion in Europe. And I dont mean by idiotic posts on some blog. Peace

Conservative Swede said...

@Carl

Hmm, that's interesting. That would make Dewinter pretty similar to Charles Johnson. In the way Charles always lists dead anti-Jihadists, such as Pim Fortuyn and Oriana Fallaci, when he wants to show what support he has.

This is an obvious advantage: dead people do not complain. And Charles just hates it when people complain.

Ed Mahmoud said...

A lot more is involved in children than merely any accident of birth. Even a child born with natural talents has to develop them, and the character and perseverance to do that are a reflection on the parents.

Homophobic Horse said...

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/11/making-filip-dewinter-dance.html#c487796303632323171

That's one subjective opinion heaped on top of another conswede. I mean, Britain, the second most mixed country in Europe according to Swede, has music greatly inferior to that of Germany/Austria, it's literature is boring, its language unmusical and made jagged with latinate french words, British people have bad teeth, they're also roughly a head shorter than the huge and terrible Poles who have recently arrived.. See what I mean?

But really, Spain is a good example of nationhood as opposed to "race". Incidently I should mention that there's a trend, which Sarkozy made explicit recently, that multiculturalism will lead to the creation of a multiracial superman of tolerance and diversity etc.

Which means that multiculturalism is disavowed racism of the most extreme kind.

The Spanish are a pretty good example of the falseness of this idea. Of all the colonial powers they were definately among the cruelest. And Russians (extensively mixed with Asiatic elements) positively revel in their chauvinism.

Ed Mahmoud said...

Well, if the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp has indeed been dead over a year, and a successor not yet chosen, and DeWinter mentioned getting advice from him this year, he doesn't talk to him that often.


BTW, the Baron gives fomer Exalted Cyclops and Kleage Robert Byrd a fair amount of credit if he assumes he has totally outgrown his racist views.

Byrd said in the Dec. 11, 1945, letter -- which would not become public for 42 more years with the publication of a book on blacks in the military during World War II by author Graham Smith -- that he would never fight in the armed forces "with a Negro by my side." Byrd added that, "Rather I should die a thousand times, and see old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels."


Link

Ed Mahmoud said...

David Lieberman is the current Chief Rabbi of Antwerp, per internet searching.

Ed Mahmoud said...

Full name- Rabbi David Moshe Lieberman.


So DeWinter may have indeed spoken recently with the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp.

Conservative Swede said...

Ed,

What's the weather like in Antwerp?

Ed Mahmoud said...

Antwerp is cloudy and 6º, showers earlier, winds from the NW.



Not unsimilar to Houston, TX.
7º, rain earlier, cloudy now, winds from the NW.


BTW, I think Carl in Jerusalem runs a good blog, from what I've seen, and I am certain he did not know that a new Chief Rabbi had been selected.

Ed Mahmoud said...

OT, or maybe not. French youth rioting again in Gay Paree, .

Ed Mahmoud said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ed Mahmoud said...

I'm doing something wrong with my links, unless Michelle Malkin is a bad word or something.


Ed Mahmoud said...

Or maybe the slash on the URL is messing it up.

Ed Mahmoud said...

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/11/25/is-paris-burning-again/

Conservative Swede said...

Ed: BTW, I think Carl in Jerusalem runs a good blog, from what I've seen, and I am certain he did not know that a new Chief Rabbi had been selected.

Yeah. And kind of interesting how he was neighbour with the former Chied rabbi. It's a small world.

And no, I'm not gonna ask about the weather in Jerusalem :-)


Ed: "OT, or maybe not. French youth rioting again in Gay Paree"

Precipitation of stones?


PS. The link works, it's just very hard to catch. It's just a dot. Anyway her e it is again.

laller said...

Ed Mahmoud

I believe you've veen looking at a glamor.
First of all, the vast majority of migrants don't migrate because they want to adopt the culture and customs of the destination country but for money. As such they are not gonna give up a lot of their own culture and customs willingly, which makes the process of assimilation a very slow process indeed.
Second, I don't know if you're American or not, but if you are it could explain why you don't notice that none of your ethnic groups are "fitting in quite well". As i wrote in an earlier comment, Robert Putnam conducted a study, which shows that multiculturalism causes lower levels of trust in society(and according to Putnam himself he used 5-6 years trying to come up with alternative reasons for the effect. In the end he had to admit defeat and publish his findings). Those lower levels of trust were even noticeable in communities where multiculturalism was "inviting a Swede to a Norwegian picknick"(not sure if I'm quoting accurately here, as it's been a while since I read the article. Anyway the point is that eventhough the "skin colour" is identical and the cultures and customs are very similar if not almost identical, it still has a negative impact on society). By European standards that's simply not "fitting in quite well", because we know better: We grew up with "better" and for the most part still live with "better".

TC said...

Baron B.

Screw this. The PC crowd of the Johnson is NOT going to understand, because they do not WANT to understand. All they want to do is be funny and growl at strangers and worship his majesty. I own a Golden Retriever, he's JUST LIKE THAT.
You're squandering your valuable energy on a fruitless cause.

Let's turn to more pressing and interesting things. There's plenty.

Ed Mahmoud said...

laller-


No, almost no group immigrates for the purpose of subsuming their culture into the culture of their new country.


But when there is no welfare state, immigrants must learn the language and adapt to the culture, or starve.



While there is a certain amount of tension between more recent immigrants, and there is an urban black underclass, there is no tension between most ethnic groups, and, in fact, a worry of some Orthodox Jews in this country is that the Jewish people are losing their identity to inter-marriage with Gentiles. Not so much among the Orthodox, but the less religious Reform, if I recall, have rates of intermarriage approaching 50%. Whites, Asians and Hispanics frequently inter-marry, a sign that any remaining cultural differences aren't as bad as you suspect. And among 'White People', while people of Norwegian ancestry might enjoy different foods than Fourth generation America-Poles, and many Irish drink on March 17th, there really is no clash of cultures at all among ethnicities of European ancestry.

Conservative Swede said...

I hate the expression "the truth is somewhere in between", but I like when I'm able to say "you are both right". You are both right Ed and Carl! Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Community_of_Antwerp
----
The religious community is represented by two religious councils, known as kehillas:

* The Israëlitische Gemeente van Antwerpen Shomre Hadass; primarily oriented towards the Modern Orthodox community. It is led by Chief Rabbi M. Lieberman. This council also espouses the values of religious Zionism, and maintains a pro-Israel stance in community affairs.
* The Orthodoxe Israëlitische Gemeente Machsike Hadass, represents the ultra-orthodox Haredi community. Since the death of Chief Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth, infighting and disagreements have prevented the Machsike Hadass from appointing a new Chief Rabbi.

Conservative Swede said...

Ed Mahmoud said...

A lot more is involved in children than merely any accident of birth. Even a child born with natural talents has to develop them, and the character and perseverance to do that are a reflection on the parents.


Aha, but in what direction goes the causality? Children do well in developing their talents, partly because their parent love them and are proud of them no matter what. Simply because they were born. As their children.

Of course, as you say, a lot more is involved in the raising of child, obviously. But the pride and love is pretty unconditional.

Anyway, my initial comment was merely meant to be humorous.

Sodra Djavul said...

It is up to Belgians to dictate their own future, and their own immigration laws.

It is not up to a West Coast blogger.

If Belgians wish to define who they allow to become citizens on any level, it is up to us to respect that.

These same commenters who scream foul when the Vlaams Belang advocate a policy of ensuring that their nation continue into the next century are the same who would advocate against the Palestinian "right of return."

If it is right for Israel, and I agree that it is, why is it wrong for Belgium?

- Sodra

SwampWoman said...

Second, I don't know if you're American or not, but if you are it could explain why you don't notice that none of your ethnic groups are "fitting in quite well".

I'm of French/German Jew/Scots/Cherokee ancestry myself, and those folks seemed to get along quite well as Americans. Neither German nor French was allowed in my mother's home, and my mother grew up monolingual in English. My ex-daughter-in-law's grandfather was of Russian descent and emigrated from Cuba, and she only speaks English and knows nothing of either Russia or Cuba, except that Castro should die painfully. My son-in-law's ethnic background is Italian/Irish and unknown other quantities and his culture is entirely American. Most of us, you see, are entirely composed of mixed ethnicities. We call ourselves "Americans".

Conservative Swede said...

I found this photo of Dewinter shaking hands with a rabbi, at the DowneastBlog in a post from 2004.

I'm quoting from the post:

>>Because a picture tells more than a 1,000 words, as the cliché goes, I provide here a photo depicting Filip Dewinter, VB chairman in Antwerp, shaking hands with the well-known rabbi Pinchas Meyers. In the former you will recognize the man on the poster from yesterday's article. In addition, I can tell you that Dewinter has also held talks with Jewish former town official André Gantman, in which he distanced himself explicitly from each and any form of anti-Semitism.

The VB itself does the same, but I’m giving this example because Dewinter himself is really the face of the VB, not only in Antwerp but also in the rest of the country. Scroll down this site, and you will find plenty of evidence of extensive contacts between the VB and Jews in Antwerp. In addition, I might add that Dewinter has given interviews to Jewish newspaper Maariv supporting Israëls cause, and that Dewinter on March 23rd of this year, upon introducing Israeli author Avi Lipkin, a former spokesman of the Israeli army, to a VB audience, said that Israel is "the vanguard of the West in a feudal Middle East."

He’s not the only one though: Marc Joris, another well-known VB figure from Antwerp co-runs with female Jewish filmmaker Tami Lorjé the site Kristalhelder, a site providing background info on Israël from the point where MSM info on that country STOPS... Such is the vigor with which Mr. Joris, a Holocaust Denier as the PC cabal would want us to believe, has committed himself to the defence of Jews in Belgium, that he is affectionately known among the members of that community as Yachem Joris , meaning "Little Jew Joris">>

Also:

>>In March 2004, Filip Dewinter held in a meeting organized by the Antwerp VB chapter a passionate plea for the State of Israel, saying that "Israel is the vanguard of the West in a feudal Middle East". Among those present was Avi Lipkin, a jewish author and former spokesman for the Israeli Army. Dewinter's speech was so eloquent and convincing, highlighting Israels brave struggle and its prodigious accomplishments, that after the speech Mr. Lipkin HEARTILY EMBRACED FILIP DEWINTER!!!>>

Carl in Jerusalem said...

Sodra writes:

These same commenters who scream foul when the Vlaams Belang advocate a policy of ensuring that their nation continue into the next century are the same who would advocate against the Palestinian "right of return."

If it is right for Israel, and I agree that it is, why is it wrong for Belgium?


I have NO problem with Belgium or any other country restricting immigration to maintain its ethnic or religious makeup. Any country should have that right and no country has completely open borders to all comers.

My ONLY problem is whether VB espouses Nazi (i.e. anti-Semitic) beliefs. If they do, I want them to sit on the sideline when it comes to Israel because my people have had enough experience with Nazis for ample distrust. We can each fight our own battles against the Jihad.

Henrik said...

"My ONLY problem is whether VB espouses Nazi (i.e. anti-Semitic) beliefs."

Sir, how about yourself? Can you prove that you're not doing that? That you have never done that? That you'll not do that at some point in the future?

We're listening.

OK, I'm not gonna charge you with anti-Semitism. Just wanted to show how tricky it is to prove a negative on this.

Vlaams Belang, as it has been repeated ad nauseam, has close connections to the Jewish circles and is one of the most Israel-friendly parties in Europe.

Still you suspect these people of anti-Semitism? That's just nuts.

Look at the 'left' (and read "What's left?" by Nick Cohen :) Here you don't have to suspect them for crypt-anti-Semitism. They are openly anti-Semitic, disguised as 'being critical of Israel'. Or you may look at the Islamists, who are doing to the Jews exactly what the Nazis did. There's a mountain of evidence.

Now, you may disregard the loads of evidence and try to look for anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist, hoping to find something sensational.

I think it's just dumb and discourage it.

laller said...

SwampWoman

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but is it rational to generalize based on ones own experience/situation? I know we all do it, but is it rational?
There are exceptions to every rule, but that doesn't negate the fact that American society as a whole "suffers" from its multicultural reality. Putnam's study was done in the US, after all...

laller said...

Ed Mahmoud

I didn't claim that the US was on the verge of an "ethnicity war", or that tensions were high. The effects of the multicultural US reality are more subtle. Let me just "quote" a few of the effects that Putnam found(it's from memory so don't shoot me if I'm slightly off):

The more multicultural a community is, the less people get involved in politics and vote.
The more multicultural a community is, the less people trust politicians, police and even their neighbours, even those of the same ethnicity/skin color.
The more multicultural a community is, the less people do volunteer work...

As you can see, the effects of multiculturalism are more subtle. You'd probably not even be aware of them. In my oppinion, those effects are proof that the various ethnic groups aren't fitting in quite well(though that is ofcourse a subjective evaluation). If they were fitting in quite well, then these effects wouldn't exist. Atleast not at a level high enough to be measured and attributed to the fact that various ethnic groups are living side by side.

Blondie said...

Is it always clear where 'pride' ends and 'supremacism' begins?
What exactly is always so wrong with supremacism?
Are not most of us supremacists in some ways (e.g. anti jihadists feeling superior to jihadists, non Nazis to Nazis, etc.)?

Archonix said...

It would depend on how that "superiority" is expressed. I mean, first there's the problem that simply assuming your own culture to be superior is automatically associated with deciding your race is superior by the multiculturalists, so that people are no longer able to effectively express the belief that their culture is superior without either feeling guilty of racism or - and this has a bearing on the situation in Europe - feeling that they have to associate with genuine racists.

But yes, it depends on how that superiority is expressed. There's a perfect example of a Victorian era man (and that Williams character had better take note of this too) who believed that the English were superior, that British culture was superior, and who went on to prove it was essentially true. His name was James Brooke, also known as the White Raja of Sarawak. He went in to Sarawak seeking a bit of adventure and ended up banishing piracy in much of south-east asia, introducing a fairly representative system of government to Sarawak and Borneo and, through the belief in the innate superiority of his culture (and, it has to be said, his race) dragged a hellish backwater filled with headhunters and savages kicking and screaming in to the 19th century.

You don't hear much about James Brooke these days, but he was a fairly typical example of the kind of man that drove the British Empire in its heyday. Proud, a little arrogant, but imbued with an absolute belief in the civilising mission of the English race.

Believing your culture to be superior means nothing. It's how you act on that belief that counts.

Ed Mahmoud said...

As far as multicultural in the US, yes, there are definite issues with black folks and white folks. But most Americans whose families have been here more than a few generations are of the same culture. There is no "multi" in the culture of 3rd and 4th generation Americans of almost any European heritage, or of East Asian heritage (except for the small percentage that still remain in 'Chinatowns', a vestige,, I suppose, of an eralier era when the Chinese did not or were not allowed to assimilate into the larger culture). The son of Indian immigrants, Bobby Jindal, has been elected the new governor of Louisiana, a state with an insignificant number of Americans of Indian ancestry.

Epaminondas said...

Too bad I missed so much yesterday...

My point in commenting what I did was of course, that if Mr DeWinter COULD have repudiated his call for White Europe, and White Flanders, he WOULD have.

He really might laugh. But impertinent, well, I think that's a bit much as description. Impertinent americans who think they can open their mouths about white europe?
Interesting.

Nor do I think it's your job. He had a chance on Shire Network News, and we all know what he said. It was more of a ... you know the guy ..you mention it. How could you NOT?

I have no idea why he couldn't repudiate 'white europe' as a goal in FACT.

But one can certainly look at Mrs. Clinton right now and manage a guess. The answer are universally unpleasant.

And now, let's see if self control trumps emotion and I can avoid commenting on this again.

There are other fish to fry

Henrik said...

"I have no idea why he couldn't repudiate 'white europe' as a goal in FACT."

I think he did already. Now, this quote is from the early 90's, where speaking a bit out of line wasn't punished so harshly, when racism was a non-issue, and when the EU had not yet started to remove words from our languages.

DeWinther has explained about that statement (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he meant a Europe adhering to ideals of democracy, liberty and freedom, not bogged down by reactionary and frequently violent reactionary religions. He is on record stating that it was not meant to be an issue of skin colour or the like.

The interview is somewhere in the pile of documents at Center for Vigilant Freedom. It is generally advised to read the entire collection before launching the lynch mob :)

Epaminondas said...

interview - his voice, his words, and all the time in the world to explain.

No comment.

ProFlandria said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou, SwampWoman, and others - here are two more problematic examples of dating preferences. I have to stress that I am giving other people's explanations for THEIR dating preferences:

One of my friends is a black woman. She refuses to date black people because they are cheap (until recently she was a waitress and knows of what she speaks!), and because they cheat and generate a superabundance of drama in general.

Two of my other friends are sisters of puerto-rican origin, and they refuse to date latino men because they cheat. Their brother has dated (what seems like) one of everything under the sun, except latinos - because they cheat and generate a superabundance of drama in general.

So, are these people "auto-racists"? "anti-racists?" "other-raced?" It boggles the mind...

Strangely enough though, I'm pretty sure they would never accept my making the exact same arguments to explain my preferences. I've known all of these friends for over ten years and our discussions range pretty far, so I have a fair idea how they would react!

Conservative Swede said...

Epaminondas: "interview - his voice, his words, and all the time in the world to explain."

...and the Dewinter Derangement Syndrome...

Ed Mahmoud said...

Puerto Ricans are one of the ethnic groups in the US that haven't assimilated as well as might be expected. Puerto Rico has a very fortunate situation in regards to the United States, they have the full benefit of US citizenship, except they can't vote in Presidential elections (and, IIRC, only have Congressional delegates, not voting representatives). They do not pay US income tax, but qualify for a wide array of welfare benefits.

In certain states, such as New York, welfare benefits are much more generous than back on the island, and may Puerto Ricans legally moved to the US for the sole purpose of going on welfare.


Every few years a new referendum is held in Puerto Rico, asking the people if they want statehood, independence or maintain the staus quo. A national Geographic article I read a year or two back states the bars are closed and alcohol sales prohibited on election day, because, emotionally, many Puerto Riqueños hate the US, but a majority receive benefits from the US government, so island leaders want people to vote with their heads, not their hearts.


I would say, in the US, multi-generation citizens of varying European ancestry wouldn't even consider their marriages to be mixed. I would dare say there are few American citizens whose families have been in the US more than three or four generations of pure ethnic ancestry.


BTW, even the vast majority of people of Mexican ancestry in this country, if they came here legally, assimilate, especially here in Texas. (I would almost dare say that the more conservative the state, and the less generous welfare benefits are, the more likely that new immigrants are likely to assimilate quickly).

Conservative Swede said...

Tundra Tabloids has a very good article related to this thread:

Quote:
"The picture on the left is from a scene in the Finnish film of the battle at Tali-Ihantala in the former Finnish area of Karelia. Taking a closer look at the Finnish tank one notices a swastika.

Shock and horror!

But hold on a second, the use of the symbol in the Finnish military predates the German use of it. It has absolutely nothing to do with German Nazism, but there you have it for the eye to see."

Read the whole thing: When Even Tarring Won't Stick.......