Monday, November 19, 2007

Charles Johnson’s Obsession

The Fjordman Report

The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.
For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here
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First of all I would like to say that I am at least as tired of this public spat as I suspect many of my readers are. I had no intention of writing a post about this topic today, and was in the process of reading Ibn Warraq’s excellent book Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said’s Orientalism and preparing a positive review of Robert Spencer’s latest book Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t. I guess that’s one thing Charles Johnson and I have in common. However, Mr. Johnson of Little Green Footballs apparently wants to keep this story going. It is tempting to ignore LGF completely, but since a few readers will probably believe some of the nonsense posted there about me and others, I guess I have to respond, however reluctant that may be.

Obsession For BloggersIn his post entitled Fjordman’s Obsession, Johnson claims that Fjordman “continues posting his melodramatic ‘Farewell to Little Green Footballs’ at every web site that will let him. This seems like the fifth or sixth site it’s appeared at, and it’s even been translated into German. It’s bizarre and obsessive behavior, bordering on character assassination, but it’s what I’ve come to expect; it’s how Fjordman and his fellow travelers obfuscate and divert attention from the real issues.”

I have several objections to this. When I checked the Global Politician website today, November 19th, there were no less than three articles of mine posted at the front page. One was my post about LGF, which had been published at the Gates of Vienna blog. Another was an essay where I warn against the erosion of political liberty and free speech caused by excessive government interference, a typically Fascist viewpoint if you believe my critics. Finally, there was the essay The Truth About “Islamic Science,” which was first published at Jihad Watch . If you look at the sidebar, you will also see the category “More by this author,” which contains links to other articles republished at the GP, for instance my essay entitled The Fatherless Civilization , originally published at The Brussels Journal.

The most interesting fact, however, is that not one of the above mentioned texts, nor the many, many other of my essays that have been republished at the Global Politician website, were sent to them by me. They republished the essay about Little Green Footballs on their own initiative and without consulting me, which is fine. They can continue doing so because I have repeatedly stated, I believe even at the comments section of LGF, that all of my essays can be republished online for free, or translated to other languages, by anybody who wants to. A few of my essays, for instance the one about Islam and science which was posted in stages at Jihad Watch and expanded into the booklet Islam, Christian Europe, and the Greek Heritage at Gates of Vienna, can also be republished in print.

Because of this, most of my articles are published at several websites. I occasionally come across some of my essays during web searches reposted as websites I haven’t even heard of before. I harbor no illusions that this is going to change the world, but as long as somebody likes my work, and as long as the impact of my essays is more than zero, I will continue doing this. I hardly ever communicate with the Global Politician and have to check my archives to see if I even have their email address. They republished that post because they liked it. I had nothing to do with it, which means that my supposed “obsession” in this case was nonexistent.

Regarding the German translation mentioned by Mr. Johnson: Some of my essays have been translated to Spanish, Italian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Polish, the Czech language etc. By far the most prolific translator, however, is the German blogger calling herself Eisvogel. A quick look at her website will reveal that she has translated literally dozens of my essays. She started out with this before I was familiar with her website. Unlike the GP, I do have email contact with her, but no, I didn’t ask her to translate the particular article about LGF. She translates whatever she finds interesting or relevant among my essays, which means that my supposed obsession in this case is, again, entirely nonexistent. The only website I have asked to publish that essay was Gates of Vienna where it was originally published.
- - - - - - - - -
Some of Eisvogel’s translations have been republished at the major anti-Jihad blog Politically Incorrect, perhaps the most pro-Israeli and pro-American German language blog in existence. They are in the process of establishing an English version of their excellent website. Their front page displays a photo of the late Italian writer Oriana Fallaci, just as Mr. Johnson does at his website. There is also an Israeli flag next to the text: “This blog supports a strong and secure Israel and appreciates its virtues.” They even link to LGF. Their editor Stefan Herre was supposed to represent Germany at the Counterjihad Brussels 2007 conference, which Charles Johnson and his Little Green Footballs crowd have spent the past month trying to discredit as a Nazi-infested meeting. Sadly, Herre was unable to attend, but his presentation can be read here, along with other national presentations.

According to Eisvogel, some of the most mentally exhausting problems facing anti-Jihadists are not caused by Muslims or the political Left, but by the constant infighting among those supposed to be Islam-critics. Even so-called conservatives call others racists, Fascists and Nazis if they disagree with them, which sounds an awful lot like what LGF has been doing for weeks now. Johnson still hasn’t answered whether it is OK to compare me, one of the most pro-Israeli bloggers in Europe, to Nazi apologists, nor does he link to most of the information carefully collected by Christine at the Center for Vigilant Freedom.

I would hereby like to make a challenge to Charles Johnson: You claimed in your latest post that I continue posting my farewell to LGF at every website that will let me. However, the truth is that I have never asked a single website apart from Gates of Vienna to post that essay. I like Global Politician and have no desire to swamp them with unwanted emails, but if you doubt the accuracy of what I just wrote, why don’t you send them an email and ask them whether I was “obsessive” about posting the article about LGF at their website. If you find that the answer is no, and believe me, you will, that means that you just made a post with the sole purpose of discrediting me and my character which was 100% flat-out false, totally invented and without any factual basis whatsoever.

On top of that, Mr. Johnson goes on to accuse me, on the basis of this fraudulent information, of “bizarre and obsessive behavior, bordering on character assassination, but it’s what I’ve come to expect.” I could say something about the pot calling the kettle black in this case.

The way I see it, there are now only two choices left for Charles Johnson: He can either admit that his latest post about me was based on false premises, post a retraction and perhaps issue an apology to me. Or, he can continue as if nothing has happened. If he chooses to do the latter, it will undermine his credibility in the long run since he presents his website as an alternative to dishonest reporting in the mainstream media, but fails to live up to his own ideals. If Little Green Footballs does not issue a retraction in this case, will “fake, but accurate” be the blog’s new motto?

Finally, before I get back to doing real work, I would like to say one more thing: Yes, I write under a pseudonym, not my real name. No, it’s not an ideal situation, but so far I have calculated that I can do more good by using a pseudonym than my real name. I have considered using my real name several times, and maybe I will some day. However, the treatment several people, including Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs, but especially Paul Belien of The Brussels Journal, have received is not encouraging. I do not agree with Belien on everything, especially since he is a deeply religious man and I am not. But he is not a Fascist, he is a good man and he does not deserve to be subject to the cyberspace witch-hunt orchestrated by the supporters of Little Green Footballs over the past few weeks. An anti-Semitic Fascist regime already controls Europe: it’s called the European Union.

Belien has been subject to death threats from Muslims, attacks from Leftists and police harassment by the Eurabian authorities in his country. The fact that he is now also attacked by so-called conservative Islam-critics speaks volumes about how totalitarian the political atmosphere in Europe is now becoming.

90 comments:

Charlemagne said...

Fjordman, I love your writing but must admit that I am indeed weary of the LGF debate. Perhaps it's my ADD!

I post occasionally on LGF and find that most posters seem to be there for a laugh and not much serious discussion seems to take place. Some posters attempt to take deep dives into topics but they regularly veer off into chit chat.

As an American who has lived and studied in Europe I am much more sympathetic, it seems, than some others to accept allies in the battle against Islam. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

I also just don't believe that neo-Nazis are more than a fringe and never will be. The fight against Islam is simply too important for 'cultural preservationists' to brush aside potential allies. As more and more Europeans look for parties that will defend Europe against the EU and Islamic colonization the "far right" parties will grow and the most extremist members will be pushed out. Adapt or die!

Let's move past this schism and get back to the real fight.

mpresley said...

It is interesting to note (but not surprising) that others copy and post Fjordman's writings. I believe it is because they are intellectually honest, well reasoned, and offer something worthwhile to think about.

As far as I know, Mr Johnson has written nothing, other than a few off hand comments. Perhaps he may be a bit irritated others are not so interested in copying and distributing what he has to say. But, first, he must make the effort to write something intellectually worthwhile. Off hand comments are OK for fans. But they will not create much respect among people looking for substantial ideas. Certainly his work on Rathergate was welcome. But when it comes to serious discussion of European politics he is simply outclassed.

Henrik said...

"But when it comes to serious discussion of European politics he is simply outclassed."

Which is probably why he's so pissed. He simply can't follow the discourse.

Count me in on those tired of this. I'm moving on already, fortunately.

One of the good things that came of this is the double-checking of the Vlaams Belang. Particular their abstaining from the EP Holocaust 'memorial' resolution was interesting. They had seen right through the obfuscated language, and rejected it because it was a disguised attack on freedom of expression - knowing well that they'd stand quite alone doing so.

So they did. Not for political games or gains, not to get approval or influence. They did so because it was the Right Thing to do.

I love friends like this :)

Homophobic Horse said...

So Johnson has attacked Fjordman as insane. He may as well call Fjordman "Islamophobic". I think maybe Johnson is desperate. If he continues on this road he will destroy his credibility, if he recounts his attacks he will perhaps destroy his self respect.

Alex said...

Matthew 7:15-20

“Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

AngleofRepose said...

I wasn't gonna put this out there, but in light of what's happened and reading this post, here goes, come what may...

I made a comment on Richard Miniter's post in which I said:

AngleofRepose :
Oh, and another thing. Richard has a point about Charles' using leftist attack sites to build his case.
Take for example his addition of those pictures of the rat: "LGF reader Killgore Trout scoured up two more images of the White Nationalist rat cartoon from other sources (Belgian far-right sites):"

NOT!
They're freaking socialists!
And he didn't provide a link to that site, either. Hmmm.. wonder why?


(my emphasis)

Note that nobody disputed my quote. Now take a look at the post I took that quote from:

"LGF reader Killgore Trout scoured up two more images of the White Nationalist rat cartoon from other sources (Belgian extremist sites):

(my emphasis)

Not that bigga deal, but isn't it blogger etiquette to note any alterations? And doesn't it speak to the larger issue here.. of honest reporting?

However, I do take issue with one thing you wrote, fjordman:

which Charles Johnson and his Little Green Footballs crowd have spent the past month trying to discredit as a Nazi-infested meeting.

I don't believe they're trying to discredit the conference. They're saying the overall effort could be tainted by supposed neo-nazi attendees.

The initial questioning of the VB was valid. The follow-up witch-hunt, absolutely disgusting. Dewinter et al may have some questionable past-time activities, but picking on Belien was utter shit.

Charles can pretend like he's been above the fray by not getting personal, but fjordman's link to that comment of his, and smear-by-association tactics used on Belien puts the lie to that.

Blech.

AngleofRepose said...

I should correct something I wrote above - it wasn't Charles' comment, but a re-posting of a comment by someone else, highlighted with approval I assume, by Charles.

Dymphna said...

henrik--

It takes a looong time to become even superficially aware of European politics and culture. We (the US) derive from them, but the best analogy I can think of are the Romantic languages. They all derive from Latin, but they are not mutually intelligible tongues.

We Americans *think* we know more than we do about our cousins, as they do us. Both sides reduce one another to caricatures on occasion.

I have been looking and listening a long time, but I seldom post on matters European. Unlike the Baron, I was not educated there.

In fact, I have been on the sidelines thru this contretemps, though I did try to answer the absolutely surprising criticism that arose immediately after I sent the link about the Brussels conference to LGF, as I had been asked to do by email from the conference.

Charles posted it, followed by an update by someone named Dave of (?from?) Sweden, who questioned the credibility of some of the attendees and the naive Americans who were taken in.

That was quite disturbing. There was no one to talk to since all the attendees had gone their separate ways and were essentially not available to ask. So I wrote Charles, to no effect, and I went on the comments to explain how carefully everyone in attendance had been vetted by both the American part of CVF, and CVF Europa. They spent months at it.

I was so dismayed, watching the Baron's months of hard work being trashed. No one listened. It was their way or the highway, with no other path.

Charles went on to block our registration and to de-link our site. It became more and more puzzling.

I watched Fjordman try to explain, since he had been there at the conference, and has certainly "studied" Europe, but he was attacked, too. It was like being in a large echo chamber in the middle of a maelstrom. I backed away.

Charles has had reams of charges to make. Attempts to answer them are ridiculed, questioned, or simply ignored -- with no background knowledge or information supplied.

The first, and most telling one for me, was poor Ted Ekeroth's attempt to show that SD was legitimate. The documents he sent in good faith to Charles were put up as target practice for his commenters. It was sad. Ted is either the secretary or treasurer of SD in Lund, and Jewish to boot. Why would he join an antisemitic political party??

Then the attacks against Paul Belien began. The Baron was in Yorkshire, his first "alone" vacation since 1985...he went back to see his old teenage haunts. I was darned if I'd let him know what was going on and ruin a good time.

I watched from the sidelines as the downward spiral continued. You will note during that time I simply posted without reference to LGF. What was there to say? Charles, who previously had seldom been in the comment threads on his blog, was there frequently, making bizarre statements. The first one I noticed was when several people were trying to defend the issues, and suddenly, the green comment (only Charles is green) came on, saying -- this is a paraphrase -- "something in this thread smells." At that point, I clicked off. It was beyond my ability or desire to deal with.

The following days were a frenzy of LGF posts against the Conference and its members. Almost everything else was ignored.

By then the Baron was home and gladly turned over the reins to him. He'd been there.

It's been a month today since the conference broke up on Oct 19th. And yet it still goes on. The constant stream of Fjordman bashing has become an undiminished flood. SD has been dropped; they couldn't find anything. But VB is still a hotwire, one that is constantly plugged in.

I'm glad Fjordman spoke. I'm not surprised it took two posts. And I would imagine that when he has all the information sorted to his satisfaction, the Baron will say something that he considers definitive and final from his point of view, whether it is for others or not.

It has been a learning experience, one which caused me some anguish till I moved beyond that to an admixture of amazement and amusement. It's surreal. Like being a character in a Fellini film.

But believe me, I understand your weariness with this and I wish it were over. However, some things must run their full and natural course whether I like it or not. There is a momentum to discord, conflict, and betrayal. There is a beginning, a middle, and an end. We are not yet in Act V, but it's close.

What's wearisome to all, audience and participants, is that there's been no intermission in this interminable tragi-comedy.

Soon...soon.
_____________

And then I get to move on to trying to understand the history and events in Morocco and Algeria...but that's in the future, when the sandstorms have passed.

BTW, I still believe that the essay from American Thinker that Andrew Bostom tipped us to is probably the best explanation:

Disinformation Being Spread by Belgium?

Why? Because it satisfies teh requirements of Occam's Razor for an otherwise opaque situation.

DP111 said...

AngleofRepose said...I don't believe they're trying to discredit the conference. They're saying the overall effort could be tainted by supposed neo-nazi attendees.

At this moment it is virtually impossible to say what the overall effect is likely to be. It is, at the very, least debatable in a calm manner, and should be so.

One of the problems we have in the UK (and true everywhere in the West), is that the main parties are all committed to multiculturalism, Islam is a religion of peace mantra etc. There is no place for anti-Jihadists, or those who clearly see the threat Islam poses to civilisation, to vote for.

This leaves the field open for the likes of the BNP. Let us suppose, that due to our efforts as bloggers, or just that the public gets wise to the threat of Islam, the BNP or the VB vote started go up rapidly. So much so, they became a real threat to the cosy power sharing of the main parties. What will happen then? If history is any guide, the main parties will quickly adopt the anti-Jihadi agenda, but without the racist plank. After all, loss of power is the greatest catastrophe, as far as any politician is concerned.

In that sense, offering VB or the BNP "promisory" support before an election, is a sound tactical ploy.

bryan said...

LGF is a little over the top on this one. Chuck's obsession with "others" too often takes a personal tack, where he paints himself as a martyr.

And banning people from posting seems almost Islamic and very un-American, which to me seems counter to what his blog is about. But then again, when your personality gets in the way....

I'll continue to to come here regularly for reasoned thinking.

LGF is going to the bottom of the bookmark heap.

Zonka said...

Dymphna wrote: It takes a looong time to become even superficially aware of European politics and culture. We (the US) derive from them, but the best analogy I can think of are the Romantic languages.

I think the fundamental difference here is that the US from its inception has been a melting pot of races, cultures and religions, and thus had to create an identity that trancends these factors, whereas Europe is a puzzlepiece of nations each with their own history, culture, very often same religion and a high degree of mono-ethnicity.

As an American one has to believe in the idea of America, the values laid out in the Constitution and the ideologies born out of the enlightenment (i.e. Classical Liberalism) and look past the differences in race, religion, culture and ethnicity.

As an European, you're almost literally born into a “tribe” where you're born with a nationality that comes with the full package of more than a millenia of history, a deep-rooted culture and religion and the “tribe” until recently were also rather ethnical homogenious. This have been the source of many wars in Europe and what have ultimately created the more of less homogenious nations of Europe with a few exceptions (notably Belgium, which can be said to still be in the interrim period of finding its own identity as one or more nations).

Thus when an American hears about European nationality, it is easy to get racism mixed into the blend, because of the ethnic boundaries that exist in Europe.

DP111 said...

On further thought, I shouldnt have included VB with the BNP, as the VB is quite clearly Flemish nationalist in origin and goals. And even the BNP is getting more nationalist by the day.

What I was trying to illustrate is that even if the BNP, VB or the SD, were out-and-out racist parties, the very hint that they could get power, would force one of the main opposition parties to adopt the anti-Jihad platform, and others to follow suit.

I do not believe that the BNP can make any real change in the direction we have been headed for the last 50 years without the support of the other main parties, which they would never get. In the end, it will have to be one of the main parties, who got us in this mess, to get the message, and get us out of it. That message they will only get when they are confronted by loss of power, or the prospect of power.

AngleofRepose said...

Actually, dp111, I wrote effort, not effect. But I get your overall point and you've given me something new to chew on.

Great. thread. people. The quality of the comments here compared to LGF... feh.

Rebel Radius said...

Like Bryan, LGF is off my menu altogether.

Homophobic Horse said...

Zonka, ethnicity does not "cause" war, you have been sold a lie (which incidently can be presented as anti-racist) by people who reduce all conflicts to race. You know, like the people who think that GoV is racist. They are reducing the current unpleasantness to race.. How very interesting.

For example, I for one believe it would be counter productive to look for the causes of the Crimean war in the racial qualities of 'dem Russki Slavs 'n' stuff.

But that's strange, the anti-racist multiculturalist line is that ethnicity and racism (chauvinism more accurately) causes war. How very interesting.

If you want to look for the cause of war how about territorialism? What if that is then contrasted with tribalism? Or Communalism?

john said...

Fjordman, excellent post, and I find it unfortunate that your creative thoughts are being side-tracked by an egotistical blog owner.
When the blog owner of lgf gets an idea in his head, there is no dissuading him, and he certainly won't accept your challenge, but impugn it.
As for his credibility, it has been in decline since the start of PJ Media, as he isn't a journalist or an essayist, but a commenter on other peoples reporting. The rathergate investigation was done by some of the lgf commenters, not by the blog owner.
As I doubt he will even respond directly to your challenge, continue with your reading, and excellent writing, and leave the lgf chat room to it's own devises.
I am a Christian American, a true conservative, and I support the work you folks in Europe are doing, to elevate the discourse on the threat of Global Hirabah.
If I believed for an instant that this blog or it's contributors were nazis, I would not be making this comment now.

john said...

For what it's worth, a reminder, that on this day 11-20-1945, the Nuremberg trials began. Another day that had a tremendous impact on Europe, and the world.

SorenK said...

Homophobic Horse (what a nic! lol) quote "I think maybe Johnson is desperate. If he continues on this road he will destroy his credibility, if he recounts his attacks he will perhaps destroy his self respect."

Hmmmm. CJ certainly seems to have 'painted himself into a corner' here and there's also a deal of irrationality in his actions. People may be tired of the 'spat' but I for one am fascinated as to how he will resolve this - if resolve it he can.

Does anyone have any knowledge of CJ's educational background? I think it's pertinent because although he is clearly very bright, his responses to Fjordman et al appear to suggest that he has little intellectual training. Ooops, I'm going ad-hominem, maybe I should stop here before CJ comes after me...

JDE said...

Many good observations here. Some of the self appointed gatekeepers of opinion, in LGF's commentary section, made an observation that is telling about their mindset. It basically amounted to "who are this long time registrants who suddenly have an opinion, they must have some unsavory agenda." A couple of individuals even alluded that these rare commentators must be closet racists.

The fact is a lot of older members felt it useless to comment at LFG over the last couple of years. The commentary section has been evolving into a cult of personality. It's troubling when a questions posed to some of the prolific posters there is answered by "Charles said." Whether Johnson wanted a clique of this type or not that's what he has now and it more or less forces him to keep playing to those commentators.

The hypocrisies continue with complaints of Fjordman's use of a handle. One of his greatest detractors bluntly refused to email another out of fear for his privacy. This passed, without the clique commenting in any fashion other than sympathetically. He was one of them afteral.Interesting, in the years Johnson and his merry team have battled Kos they've starting becoming that which they fought.

Passionate Conservative said...

I used to post on LGF for well over 4 years. I found the site after 9/11, and found a great number of people who were not ready to give in to PC baloney, and yet held to a (mostly) civil discourse. Then, slowly, Charles changed his blog. Was it the money that called out to him with its siren song? I don't know. I know that the blog began to get stale. Many of the posters had nothing to say, only that they professed their love an loyalty to Charles. Charles still posted plenty of relevant information, but the posters who made up the core of the blog commenters began to make Charles angry on a number of occasions because they dared to post their opinions. The opinions hadn't changed, to be certain, but the politics of the site had definitely changed. Was it "Pajamas Media" that changed it? Probably. The first (and to my knowledge) the only time I raised the ire of Charles, was when I brazenly (sarcasm) asked if a former Army sniper could be in town when Ahmadinnerjacket was in New York. Was that the cause of my banning? Heck if I know. I do know that there have been many people who have had their accounts blocked at LGF. My account was blocked for reasons unknown, except possibly because I voiced an opinion that there were too many hallelujah choir members over at LGF. Dissent from the "party line" was slowly becoming the cause for a person to fall out of favor.

Unfortunately, Charles shall reap what he has sown. His blog will weaken with all the sheep posting at his site. Too bad. It was a nice blog

CarnackiUK said...

AngleofRepose said...I don't believe they're trying to discredit the conference.

One poster at LGF described the conference as a 'hatefest'. Who was the hater and who the hated, I wonder?

Ironically, a few days later that same poster incurred the wrath of the 'Kvetch Klub' (don't know why)
and last I saw the pack were moving in for the kill...

Reading the comments over there these days is like watching a natural history show on rabid dingos without the civilizing presence of Richard Attenborough.

Stogie said...

I am a new member of LGF, and I didn't know anything about you, Fjordman, until this argument began. But now I do know you, and you seem fair, factual and articulate. I will gladly follow your essays in the future; you have my trust, because you have earned it.

CarnackiUK said...

Anyone know if the flood of refugees from LGF - banned or otherwise - has found a new home other than at GoV? I know about 'Discarded Lies'; are there any others?

David said...

" I like Global Politician and have no desire to swamp them with unwanted emails, but if you doubt the accuracy of what I just wrote, why don’t you send them an email and ask them whether I was “obsessive” about posting the article about LGF at their website. If you find that the answer is no, and believe me, you will, that means that you just made a post with the sole purpose of discrediting me and my character which was 100% flat-out false, totally invented and without any factual basis whatsoever."

I am the Editor-in-Chief of the Global Politician. It is true that we never received this article from Fjordman. Several months ago I discovered Fjordman's work and asked for permission to re-publish his articles, which was granted via email on 2/19/07.

Normally, GP sticks to submitted articles only, at the very least being the first to publish them. However, I personally very much enjoy Fjordman's work. When Christine asked me my views, I replied that they are the same as Fjordman.

Global Politician is picked up by online news wires such as Google News, which exposes Fjordman's views to the general public, not just conservatives. If you search for "fjordman" in online news wires, almost all the articles will be from the Global Politician. Personally, I felt I wanted to give him greater publicity.

I tried to create an account on LGF to post this there, but could not because registration is presently unavailable. I read through many of the reader comments there and find them unnecessarily brutal, especially considering that Fjordman began his farewell by stating the positives about LGF.

Finally, I find this dispute to be... sad. Charles Johnson does great work, as do Fjordman, Baron, Dymphna, Belien, Atlas, Spencer, etc.

- David Storobin
editor@globalpolitician.com

Ypp said...

The right-liberals (neocons) like Johnson did a great job, but their time is over. Johnson attacked Fjordman, but all this discussion only added number of Fjordman's readers. If he Johnson smart, he may have started this scandal deliberately, but played a bad guy. Or maybe he did it sincerely, but his real intentions are actually irrelevant. Alas, that's the way this world goes on - when old grass dies it serves as a fertilizer for the new grass. I wonder, if grass understands that.

Cincinnatus said...

On www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/009182.html there is what I find to be the best summary of Charles Johnson's conduct; it is a discussion between Lawrence Auster and reader James W. I excerpt the salient part:

James W. writes: It would appear (Charles Johnson's) forum has become a cult of small minds thinking alike. When all think alike, no one is thinking very much. ... Seeking truth is not necessarily seeking what is desirable, and more so because the road to truth is and must be littered with error. Johnson, believing he has shut the door to error, has closed his mind to truth. To borrow from Lincoln, most men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man, give him adoration.

LA replies: "The road to truth is and must be littered with error.... Johnson, believing he has shut the door to error, has closed his mind to truth."

James, you just hit it out of the park.

Also, I never saw that Lincoln quote before. I've looked it up, and apparently the original quote is: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." However, I think James has improved on it. Adoration in its own way has to be a greater test than power.
[end of excerpt]

So I think there is your best summary. CJ has closed LGF off from the truth, and is not well-handling the test of power/adoration.

Scientifically, there is an equivalent to this: in pursuit of comprehensive results, there is always a trade-off between ACCURACY and COMPLETENESS. It's easy to get very high accuracy if you exclude 99% of the data which is noisy. It's also easy to have total completeness if you simply include all the data, but then your accuracy is no better than you started with, and you'll not have achieved anything. So good science tries to optimize the combination of accuracy and completeness, and this furthers progress. Johnson, however, has chosen ACCURACY in his goldfish bowl over trying to achieve progress in the complete world. Clearly, in that small world, he considers himself a better man than the Pope, who was in the Hitler Youth as a boy, and so fails Johnson's world view test.

Anyway, how could anyone expect great things from a web site named after a booger. It outgrew itself long ago. Things with clay feet tend to fall over in the end. RIP LGF.

P.S. I originally posted the above at Brussels Journal. David Storobin's comment, above, reminds us of all the good work that Charles Johnson has done. But something has gone wrong now. Maybe he's fallen under the influence of a well-endowed leftie girlfriend? Who knows? But if you look at the earliest LGF pages, pre-9/11, it is immediately clear that LGF was meant to be only the gentle ruminations of an aging biking hippie. His thoughts. His, dare I say it, nose-pickings. Thus the name, "little green footballs".

Then, 9/11 happened. And Charles Johnson did something wonderful. He turned his gentle blog into a real force for good, and took the fight to the enemy. We all laud his tremendous achievements since those days.

Now, just as Muslims think there is a Jew behind every tree (does the Koran not say this?), Charles Johnson appears to think there is a Nazi behind every stone. Booga booga, Charles! And that is what Little Green Footballs has become, today it is BOOGA-BOOGA CHUCK AND HIS BOOGER ARMY. So much for those who fancy themselves "lizards", in the end, they were just boogers in the land of "little green footballs". Good-bye LGF, you were great, now the page has turned. And Charles Johnson can return to his bicycle, and relax, and be a happy man again.

Cc.

Charlemagne said...

Passionate Conv. - I was accused by some folks over at LGF of having BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome), the "Conservative kind" when I first started posting because I said that Bush has been a disaster for Conservatism. I still think that's true in spite of his good intentions. "The Road to Hell...". Since then I lost interest in posting over there as I'm not accustomed to group think.

USorThem said...

CarnackieUK

I find WeasalZippers reports as much up-to date and frequent anti-jihad events as LGF- but very little comment activity and short on the analysis.

DP111

I am glad your cleared that up on VB & BNP. There was a great thread at Jihadwatch over last few days on the LGF - VB dispute. Over 350+ comments. Many defenders and bashers of BNP were there. Boy did I get an education on european politics. Very interesting. Bottom line for me was BNP has a lot of work to do to clear its image. I believe it CAN be done, but much work and redirection is needed.

I was hoping that this dispute would be over by now. I believe it Charles is keeping it alive by his attack on Fjordman and guilt by association pics of those attending a funeral over the weekend

As long as he keeps at it, he has to be answered and dealt with. I know I have at my blog. In fact I created a page for anyone who was banned from LGF and wishes leave a comment to tell their story. I think its important to keep a record of his banning practices. Anyone feel free to add if you have been banned.

Charles making an issue out of Fjordman (or Conservative Swede) posting anonynous shows his desperation. It is the exception, not the regular practice, for coemmenters or bloggers to use their real name. There is nothing cowardly or improper about using just an online ID. Don't all of the lizards use psuedonyms?

Soren,

I am also curious CJ's education. I don't think it is necessarily ad hominen, but what is of concern is the absence of any written, articulated reasoned positions in his resume'. Christine at CFV and L. Auster (and myself) have written about CJ's absence of written material (essays, articles, books) and I have not seen anyone challenge the assertion that CJ has nothing to examine in the same way that he "fisks" or "dumpter dives" in his opponents written histories.

In my opinion he is a reporter, not a serious thinker/writer, or a leader, and he will remain a reporter.

Ed Mahmoud said...

I just got banned for pointing out that Fjordman may have his reasons for not wanting to post under his own name.

Ed Mahmoud said...

I don't know if 'guest Charles' fill in for Johnson or not. If not, he has posted from about 8 am Pacific to about 10 pm Pacific every day for over four years. He might just be getting burned out.

Michelle Malkin runs a pretty good blog, and she takes vacations and travels on business and turns the blog over to guest bloggers.


He seems to have an increasingly thin skin and delicate ego.


But no knocking the good work LGF did back during Rather-gate.

Zonka said...

@Homophobic Horse,
It wasn't my intention to state that ethnicity causes war, rather to give some of the explanation why CJ may have misunderstood statements coming from Europeans and VB in particular to be racist.

What's causing wars/conflicts in general is failure of communication and finding a common ground on which both sides can settle on. Throw fanatism in on either or both sides and you have a sure recipe for war. This happens both in personal relationships, between groups of people and between nations.

My hope is that this debacle can settle soon, so that both sides can continue to do the work they do best and fight the bigger enemy instead of fighting each other. But I fear that CJ has put too much personal interest in this matter, for a compromise to be found, which is a shame, because it benefits none but our common enemies.

And quite frankly the whole issue is absurd, we should work together with all that will work towards freedom and democracy, irregardless of their past affiliations or suspicions of ulterior motives, as long as they work within the accepted parameters we can work with them, if they deviate, our paths shall part. If one does this with eyes and ears open, the background of the warriors in this battle doesn't matter much, what matters is how each and everyone of us is conducting ourselves in the battle... and that have to be the guideline of whether we can continue to form rank or not.

Robohobo said...

From the LGF site:

"...nothing about the White Power symbol on Filip DeWinter’s bookshelf,..."

Darn it! That Celtic cross is a White Power symbol? Must make sure that the gov'ts of both the Republic and Ulster purge those nasty Nazi symbols from their country. I am sure the Republic will agree as they have gone batguano PC to the nth degree.

(Love the batguano term btw)

And I am going to have to do pennance this week to make sure that I purge it from all my ancestral documents being a 3rd gen. Irish immigrant myself. Who knew that we are Nazis because of the use of the Celtic cross?

I am going to have to apologize to my mate, M, at work for my Nazi proclivities, him being a fellow of color and all. Maybe he will forgive me.

okay /sarcasm OFF

But, good heavens, how far gone into PC delusion are some folks? That they become self hating morons? It is truly exhausting.

Anonymous said...

Zonka and others have stated that the difference between America and Europe is that we Americans have had to evolve a more universal identity because America was founded as a homeland for people of every ethnicity. This is simply not true. The people who founded America were white Europeans. Some owned black slaves, and referred to Indians as savages. Is that what people are referring to, when they insist on how inclusive we Americans have always been? The truth is, that until quite recently, America was a white majority country. Ted Kennedy's fantasy project of letting everyone in the world come here from the 1960's and on, has changed the country's ethnic makeup, and I suppose lots of well meaning people with short memories are making up a new narrative. So many people believe the new version of American history, that people on LGF are shocked that Fjordman and other Europeans prefer their countries to stay white . . . as if America were any different, until very recently.

Henrik said...

Dymphna, American interference in European matters have long been a pain in the neck here, and is often cause for an anti-Americanism I do my best to counter.

Particular the situation in the Balkans and the strongarming by the US to force Turkey into the EU are embarrasments. We handle this as well as we can.

For Charles and LGF, I think the best we can do is quite simple: Remove him from our blogroll. I really can't recommend his blog, and there are now many better places exposing Islamofascist matters.

I know it's a piece of history to discard. But it's time to move on.

Witch-king of Angmar said...

Charles Johnson is all over the place now, as I noted on my blog. First he claims he does not support the policy of preserving the ethnic make-up of European nation states then when Fjordman presses him says the opposite. Faced with strong opposition among American conservative bloggers to his recent behaviour he starts claiming he was never a part of the anti-jihad movement and then a couple of days later lays down his own premises to an anti-jihad policy. His thuggish attack on all those unwilling to tow to his party line exposes, above all, the fact that he is unable to make a coherent argument. Whether it's a general personal trait or simply a result of him having painted himself into a corner with outrageous charges later exposed to be based on half-truths and inaccuracies remains to be seen. I myself believe that his ego got the better of him and that he is not interested in advancing the truth but his own ideological agenda instead.

Anonymous said...

I begin to think that Johnson's Lizards are as delusional as he's saying Fjorman is. One of the Lizards wrote

"I'd have to say where Fjordman, Dymphna, et. al. have been offended the deepest is by rejections of the ideology of racial nationalism, specifically white nationalism. This is like an open, festering wound that is never going to heal, as their position is intrinsically wrong and we are sure to keep on insisting. It is their responsibility to reconsider their belief in the necessity of turning to an ideology of the white race as a solution to ending Europe's Islamization."

One wonders what the water at LGF has been spiked with...

kepiblanc said...

Applying Occam's razor to the Charles Johnson kerfuffle gives the short answer: cowardice. Charles Johnson got three invitations to the Counter-Jihad Conference, but answered no one. When he saw the list of high-profile attendees, he realized that every Muslim cutthroat in Europe would don his suicide vest and go to Brussels. And since Charles Johnson hates Europeans even more than Muslims he doesn't trust their security either. So, our Charles stayed home and waited for the big KABOOM. Alas, there wasn't one - thanks to the brilliant and ironic idea of the organizers and Vlaams Belang: arranging the conference right in the 'Belly of the Beast' where security is top-notch. The conference was a big success, so how can Charles Johnson explain his absence? - By telling the truth; "going to Brussels scared the little green footballs out of me"? - Oh no, better find something else, like: "Vlaams Belang are Nazis", that's why....

Homophobic Horse said...

Skin colour is a red herring. If we were all the same colour we (counter jihads) would still be saying the same things anyway. So knock it off.

Archonix said...

Kepi, if that turns out to be true it's a very interesting point... and it actually outlines one of the objections I have to certain portions of the blogosphere out there, who seem determined to wish another terrorist attack into existence in order to have something to justify their to the left. It's almost as if they lack the conviction to put out the message simply because there have been no successful terrorist attacks on a western country since the Madrid bombings.

stv said...

I don't get Johnson's logic therefore I don't bother reading him. At best he is irrelevant to the struggle in Europe at worst he aids the enemy. Forget him and get on with the job...

Homophobic Horse said...

Is Charlie J really so vain?

Anyway, if there's anyone oiut there wishing for another terrorist attack I want them to be given the VB treatment.

EtNorskTroll said...

I fail to see how calling other people ugly names who, in every other sense, are our allies. Why do this??!?
Is there anyone here who is going to be happy that they p!ssed off Charles as the "Jihadis" are sawing off the heads of you, your kids and your neighbors?
"Well, at least I got a final 'zinger' in on Charles at LGF before I was murdered!"

Yeah.

Right.
Does anyone know who benefits from this schism? I'll tell you: Those who would enslave the world to Islam.
I also cannot believe that this rift couldn't have been resolved 'behind the scenes' and without creating so many hard feelings. You, Fjordman, should know better than to do this! THERE IS WAY TOO MUCH AT STAKE...and you know it!

I also cannot understand why you and Pam cannot simply get a list of 'concerns' that Charles has and address them (all of them), one by one.

Why is this so difficult?

We can ill afford to cast aside the good will offerings of our allies in this fight.

Agreed?

~Norsk Troll

Archonix said...

I don't recall CJ saying anything like that, or ever implying that's how he felt. Although, that said, I do recall seeing comments along those lines from his commenters from time to time.

EtNorskTroll said...

I'd like to address one other thing: That Charles doesn't allow dissent.
This is nonsense and those who are writing such should be shunned. While I am not here to defend Charles (he's a big boy---he can fight his own battles), I'd at least like to see people tell the truth.
Does a guy who allows this to be posted (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27947 start at comment number 43 and read the whole thread) at his site sound like someone who squashes dissent?
I am a living example of the lie to that statement.
So let's stop saying it, OK? You who say such things are starting to look foolish, and I am living proof of that.
~Norsk Troll

Archonix said...

etnorkstroll, if you actually read the articles concerning this on GoV and elsewhere you'll see that:

Charles started this,
Charles has persisted in publicly posting his charges despite efforts by others to try and resolve the matter privately and,
Various posts on this matter have dealt with every substantive charge charles has made.

The only one carrying this on at this point is Charles himself. The articles from Fjordman et al are reactive to charges that Charles continues to make, not proactive in trying to attack him. Charles has refused to address the evidence presented that refutes his claims and has refused to address the fact that many of his claims are not merely provably false but possibly even libelous.

There are doubts over VB's character. These doubts can be dealt with in a rational way. They cannot be dealt with by screaming the charge of "nazi" at every group that might possibly have some members who could perhaps maybe have links to groups that might at one time have displayed some national socialist tendencies.

If you aren't here to defend him, why are you defending him? :) If you are here to defend him then by all means stand up for that principle and state that is your intention. Don't prevaricate. It's stupid.

AngleofRepose said...

Etnorsktroll,

It's quite simple. He could have emailed any one of the numerous attendees with his concerns.. PRIVATELY.

Instead, he went public immediately, without hesitation. People reacted. Was Pam's reaction a bit over the top?.. yeah, I would say it was. But ever since then there have been numerous blog posts written that calmly and rationally refuted much of his "evidence". He dismissed those posts.

For instance - I scanned the archives of that radio show that Dewinter appeared on. Guess who else was a guest? Jim Gilchrist - the founder of the Minute Men. Guess who approves of Jim - Stormfront. Does that make him a neo-Nazi?

Yes, there are other things - like that statue on Dewinter's bookshelf. Lizards think it's a WN symbol, others think it's a Celtic Cross. Who f*cking knows??

But you know what the biggest refutation is? The fact that they're still a political party. If there were any hint of the charges laid by CJ, the opposition in Belgium would've jumped on that evidence like flies on shit. They're afraid of the VB - so why don't they use the "evidence" of Dewinter being a racist White Nationalist and withdraw funding?

Cincinnatus said...

Norsk Troll, all this is Charles' own doing. This thread, after all, is Fjordman defending himself against Charles' totally baseless attack. An attack which Charles has not retracted, by the way.

This would have ended long ago, but CJ seems incapable of ceasing fire. Weird. So yeah, go tell Charles to cease and desist, or enjoy your membership in the booger army.

AngleofRepose said...

kepiblanc,

You're stepping into moonbat territory there. That's pure speculation on your part.. please, let's not go there.

PRCalDude said...

Anyone know if the flood of refugees from LGF - banned or otherwise - has found a new home other than at GoV? I know about 'Discarded Lies'; are there any others?

I think there's a bunch on Gulf Coast Pundit.

I got banned from HotAir, but since then I've kind of settled into the more traditionalist side of the blogosphere. I think several others did the same.

Dymphna said...

~Norsk Troll

If Charles permits dissent, why did he de-register me and the Baron? I never called names, I called into question the accuracy of the material one of his commenters presented.

The Baron hasn't been there at all, and yet he was banned. Our blog was de-linked from his site.

People who have been banned from his site have emailed us. All they said was "maybe Fjordman is wise to use an pseudonym" given the lack of free speech in Sweden. Bam! He was gone.

I am told that the commenters call me a liar and pose conspiracy theories about why I put up a post about the book the Culturists...I did so because I am trying to find a way through the maze of p.c. language and that was a good place to start. Somehow they found it suspicious because there had been ads for this book on some blogs and --gasp! -- now those ads had been taken down. Obviously I was in on some plot...

This is funny now. Charles appears to be afraid of Fjordman. He won't talk to someone who uses a pseudonym. Yet everyone of his commenters -- including you -- is free to use a nic. But not Fjordman. How come do you think that is?

I guarantee you Charles will never debate Fjordman. They're not in the same league and Charles knows it. What Mr. Johnson does, he does well. But analysis, synthesis, and argument are not among his talents. That's okay: I'll bet Fjordman couldn't do one per cent of what Charles can with a computer.

IOW, we all have different talents.

But each time Fjordman has asked him to address the issues between them, Charles thinks of another excuse. And thereby diminishes himself.

The choir continues to call people names with impunity. They are not banned. Only those who sing out of Charles' range are banned. Which is okay; it's a very narrow range.

Good luck over there. I hope it adds to you wisdom and knowledge to spend your time at lgf. For some it is a good place.

But for some it has been destructive. And some are embarrassed for Charles. Others are certain he can never be wrong -- kind of like Pope Charles I, speaking ex cathedra. I

It all depends on your perspective, doesn't it?

Here's one difference between us: any of the choir there is free to come over here any time they wish. As long as they don't swear (we are a site for home schoolers) or call names, they're free to comment.

However, it is not reciprocal: there is a narrow gate of registration at lgf, and a vigilant gatekeeper. The sad part about such an arrangement is that the fewer the people, and the narrower the scope of conversation, the less you learn.

OTOH, some people gain security from living in gated communities.

Ed Mahmoud said...

Of course Charles bans people for dissent. Why do you think Fjordman was banned.


When I questioned the rather sheet-y excuse for not responding to Fjordman, that Fjordman posted anonymously (like, say 'Zombie'), and that people in Theo van Gogh's Europe might have reasons to stay anonymous when discussing the jihadists, I was banned. (Well, officially, I was banned for copying my own post and pasting it on a blog he no longer approves of.)

He is very thin skinned, has a very delicate ego, and if there is any money left from Pajama Medias, a nice vacation to Europe while Roger Simon or Allah Pundit run the blog would do him a world of good. 4 years of 14 hour days running the blog without getting away, can't be good for him.

john said...

For any that remember the lgf massacre from last year, Charles (or Nancy) went on a rampage, banning many people at once for challenging or disagreeing with him, and even banned people that weren't posting, just because they were associated with those who were banned.
CJ isn't worth this much conversation or controversy. Let him continue to assuage his wounded ego, and please continue your excellent work here.
For some odd reason, Sura 109 springs to mind.

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Suffice it to say I don't agree with Fjordman on a lot of stuff, but he clearly is more intelligent and thoughtful than Charles Johnson ever will be. Unlike the LGF gang and like Robert Spencer, Fjordman is an honest debater, who will inundate his opponent with facts rather than insults. And that type of behavior is no longer welcome at LGF.

As for bizarre and obsessive behavior, bordering on character assassination, if Charles wants to see that on display he only has to come to nodrogsgreatesthits.blogspot.com. :)

Wired said...

"Fjordman" secret service plant, Counterjihad Summit sponsored and organized by secret services and extremists, says... German antijihaidst Udo Ulfkotte?!?

The link is in German, but - hopefully - needless to say his declaration has been met with ridicule and puzzlement by the audience of the largest German counterjihad blog Politically Incorrect and the Blog of Eisvogel, who translates Fjordman's essays (as he mentioned in his article).
http://www.akte-islam.de/3.html
Boy, now he really has jumped the shark. "Fjordman" is an artificial figure, a creation of a team of American secret services. Guess that makes Conservative Swede also a plant of the NSA and Bushitler...

Henrik said...

Wow. That Akte Islam piece is so braindead - I rarely saw anything like it. All concievable conspiracy points piled up in an ugly haystack. 'Fjordman' being a team created by US intelligence services? Come on...

I've posted Ulfkotte's webmaster a list of corrections - practically everything in that piece is false, except the links :)

EtNorskTroll said...

Archonix said...

etnorkstroll, if you actually read the articles concerning this on GoV and elsewhere you'll see that:

Charles started this,


This is some kind of joke, right Archonix?

Charles started it, neener-neener!
You sound like my 4 year-old niece.
Little kids say things like that. I say this to all of you who hold such thoughts in response to this situation.

It is children who say "He started it!"....adults say "how can we resolve this?".

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO IS BENIFITING MOST FROM THIS HATRED, NAME-CALLING AND HARD FEELINGS??!?

Yep.

The Jihadis.

Think about that.

Is it REALLY going to make you feel better, that you think that you were in the right and Charles (or whoever, for that matter!) was wrong when the Jihadis rule Europe?

Well?

Is it?

How about you, Fjorman? Care to see more of our 'sote lille norge' ran over by the Islamic loving horde while we cast away the help of former allies?

HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE????

Can anyone answer me that?

?

Did anyone go over to LGF and look at what I posted?

I doubt any of you took the time to read the whole thing before you started in on your name calling.

Am I right or am I right?

I think deep down you all know that I'm right.....and your pride won't allow you to admit it.

When Norway is completely ruled by Sharia law (because the Islamists have completely stuffed the Parliment with those who agree with Sharia law) and Norwegians are being arrested on the streets for being Norwegian, I want you to remember this day and how your pride kept you from resolving this.

I want you ALL to remember it well.

I know that I will.

~Norsk Troll

Henrik said...

EtNorskTroll, you're trolling. That is considered bad style throughout the Internet.

Everyone here wants to leave this schism behind and move on. Shouting, insulting and name-calling doesn't contribute. If you have any valid concerns, you are welcome to post them. But first, I suggest you go throught the documentation posted by Christine at CVF.

We have work to do. Enough of this rabble.

Conservative Swede said...

People are going crazy by the minute...

EtNorskTroll said...

I beg your most humble pardon, Henrik:

Who is calling who names??!?

?

~Norsk Troll

Henrik said...

Troll, you picked that name yourself. What I said, and stand with, is that you are 'trolling'. That is a common thing in Internet debates, and it usually leads to bad results.

OK, I could have quoted you for this:

"You sound like my 4 year-old niece."

I didn't. Neither did I take you to task for blaming us for benefiting the Jihadists.

I just said: You're trolling.

If you have something meaningful to post, like any further concerns about the Vlaams Belang, Fjordman etc., go ahead and post it for all to see.

If not, well, what to say?

Archonix said...

This is precisely the kind of behaviour that started this problem in the first place.

If you lose your rag at my pointing out that Charles did, in fact, start this particular spat then there's very little more to say to you.

However, for the record, it was Charles that made the initial accusations, it was Charles that persisted in those accusations when evidence was presented to refute them and it is Charles that continues to throw accusations and names around without evidence to back them up.

CS is right. We're all going insane over this. And you, etnorsktroll, are also right that the jihad will benefit from this. You're mistake is in assuming that we will be the ones to fall to it. Europeans of various nationalities are now starting the process to stem the tide of Islamic terrorism. That's what the conference was about; stopping terrorism. Charles could have attended and taken part in this, he could have put his ideas to the conference as a whole and been constructive about the whole thing. He chose to be destructive instead. If anyone bears the blame for this it's Charles.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

EtNorskTroll said...

Not name calling, Henrik: I'm making an observation.

Big difference.

Children do do those tings (call people names instead of working towards solutions). Adults do the other (Work toward resolving rifts without escalating them).

Just the way it is.

Just the way it be.

Do you think otherwise? Would you be willing to say here and now that calling people names and escalating the rift is good, acceptable behaviour?

Who's being the troll now, hmmmmmmm?

:-(

Conservative Swede said...

EtNorsktTroll,

It's great that you participate here so that we now get a good idea of the posture and demeanour of those taking a moderate position in the LGF vs. Fjordman/GoV/CVF/TBJ/Counterjihad-Summit affair. It's very enlightening.

islam o' phobe said...

And since Charles Johnson hates Europeans even more than Muslims

Bingo.

Is it REALLY going to make you feel better, that you think that you were in the right and Charles (or whoever, for that matter!) was wrong when the Jihadis rule Europe?

From an article by Mark Steyn written in August 20, 2002:

Or as Charles Johnson, whose excellent "Little Green Footballs" Web site turns up dozens of fascinating Islamic tidbits every day, suggested: "Maybe we should start a betting pool: Which European country will be the first to institute shari'a?"

This is not concern, it is gloating. If Chalres Lindbergh had suggested, in 1940, that Americans start a "betting pool" on which European country would succumb to Nazism first he would have lost all credibility and been universally reviled.

You are concerned about what will happen when the jihadis rule Europe. Some of us, who don't happen to be American, are worried about the period before that. To Orthodox members of Johnsonism the Islamic conquest of Europe is either a) desirable or b) inevitable or c) both. You're talking about the death of Europe as if it were an irrelevant talking point. Despicable. Hang your head in shame.

Cincinnatus said...

EtNorskTroll, you wrote: "Is there anyone here who is going to be happy that they p!ssed off Charles as the "Jihadis" are sawing off the heads of you, your kids and your neighbors?"

Cognitive dissonance, Norsk. Does that pass for thinking on LGF? I will give you a more likely scenario:

The jihadi approaches me, serrated knife in hand. Woe is me! Suddenly, a large tough German-looking fellow intercedes. Look, he has an Odin's Cross tattooed on his arm. He advances on the jihadi, who cowers in fear. I'm saved! Suddenly a long-haired guy jumps out of the shadows. It's Charles Johnson! He yells "Nazi!" and tackles the German-looking guy. The jihadi laughs and homes in on me again...

Thanks, Charles! Thanks, Norsk Troll... NOT.

Henrik said...

"Would you be willing to say here and now that calling people names and escalating the rift is good, acceptable behaviour?"

Why should I say that? I don't agree with it - you pressing me to lie?

This, as your previous posts, constitutes trolling, which you can read much more about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Enjoy!

EtNorskTroll said...

@ Henrik, Swede, the rest:

Fine.

Is anyone here going to stand up, then, and claim that the fighting, name calling and hard feelings that are being fostered is a good thing (both on the LGF board, BJ and here)?

Look: I'm not defending LGF or all of its posters. Some of the posters there at LGF are silly in the head (i.e. they demand perfection in purity before they will align themselves with an anti-jihadi group...silly, silly children).
What I am saying is that calling each other names (those who otherwise would be on our same side) is childish and puerile.
I can see the whole issue from a very special vantage point: I read,speak and write Norwegian--I can understand Fjorman when he writes in his native tongue! I have also lived in Norway and America both and have a reasonable understanding of both countries and cultures.
Terrible, terrible changes are happening to Norway and it's being driven by the Islamic horde. I care not what color skin the Islamic ideology rides into Norway on. If it were Islamists from Ireland, Eskimoland or any other white nation that were trying to change Norwegian culture I would be just as vehement in my protest.
What you people don't get is that we don't have the luxury of picking and choosing our allies in this fight. These blighters mean business~!

And I've noticed that not one of you has dared to address me on this issue, instead choosing to simply sit back and throw stones at me.

~Norsk Troll

EtNorskTroll said...

@ Islam 'o phobe

What??!?

You seriously think that if we, the anti-jihadi groups, keep fighting, bickering and hating each other that we will be able to stave off the advancement of Islam into Europe?

Hang my head in shame???

Are you joking with me?

Do you seriously tink that the Islamists DO NOT have world conquest in their sites when they are planting bombs in Madrid, London, Beslan...etc??

Your position is a confusing one, to say the very least.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten us all here about how our weakening each other is going to ultimately defeat the Jihadis in their STATED GOAL of taking over Europe.

I would simply be gob-smacked to hear about it.

~Norsk Troll

Henrik said...

Norsk Troll, jeg forstår egentlig ikke, at du taler med så store bogstaver. Du er den eneste lige nu, der virker ophidset.

"What I am saying is that calling each other names (those who otherwise would be on our same side) is childish and puerile."

Vi prøver at overtale dig til at tage det lidt med ro, koncentrere dig om de væsentlige ting, og lade vrøvlet med LGF ligge. Der er ikke mere at hente.

Translation:

Easy now, we're trying to talk you out of shouting and getting upset. We have more important stuff to talk about than LGF.

Yes, I can converse with Fjordman in his native language, too :)

EtNorskTroll said...

Henrik~

Nynorsk, huh?

Nice.

But have you lived in America, Henrik?

NB! Jeg taler med store bokstaver paa grunn av menesker vil ikke svare om det som jeg skriver. De helt ignorerer det...synes jeg.

~Norsk Troll

Cincinnatus said...

Norsk Troll, the problem was started by LGF, and continued by them. Look at this thread title, it is by Fjordman defending himself from false charges of Charles Johnson, charges which Johnson has not retracted even though they are patently false.

Why are you hassling us about this? Go to LGF and tell it to them. Be sure to use the same overbearing tone, the faster to get banned with.

Eisvogel said...

I confirm everything Fjordman has written about me and my translations. It is true, we have email contact occasionally, but we have never discussed which essays I translate, let alone he asked me to translate his essays or any particular essay. Indeed it's merely my own decision, which doesn't mean I find the ones, I haven't translated, less interesting. When I have time, I just look which essay interests me most at that particular moment and translate it.

But there's something weird: Charles Johnson mentioned the German translation on Sunday, November 18th - when I had not even started to translate this essay. I completed and published the translation on Tuesday, November 20th at 15.45 (3.45 p.m. German time) on my blog. Nobody could have known about this translation before and I have searched the internet, a translation to German by anybody else doesn't exist. Only after I had published it, it was linked by Politically Incorrect and some other German sites. And only after I had published it, Udo Ulfkotte's crazy and malicious conspiration theory was released.

I mentioned my concerns about the infighting within the antijihad movement in an email to Fjordman long before this LGF-quarrel started. Though I personally don't know Charles Johnson and have never been a LGF-reader (except when I followed a link occasionally) I am not surprised, that somebody did it. I still think, this could evolve into a great problem for us. It's a typical phenomena for people who are harrassed by a majority. And though infighting antijiahdists are not as physically threatening as Muslims and some extreme Leftists are, it could do much damage to our good cause. When people from inside call somebody "racist, fascist, nazi" it's much more credible than from outside.

We should consider the problem meticulously and find solutions how to avoid it in future. Unfortunately I fear, something like that could happen again.

Henrik said...

NorskTroll, det er dansk, du ser :)

No, I've never been to America. My brother is married to an American woman, that's the closest we'll get.

Eisvogel, thanks for the comments. I got reply from Ulfkotte's webmaster (an old friend of mine) who suggests me to mail him directly. I've done so. I think Ulfkotte needs a really nice holiday somewhere warm and pleasent...

I'm feeling good about the situation. Christine did the heavy lifting at CVF, we can brush off the crazies and move on.

Anonymous said...

EtNorskTroll- a little bit of LGF right here on GoV.

Jesus Christ Supercop said...

EtNorskTroll:

This is some kind of joke, right Archonix?

Charles started it, neener-neener!
You sound like my 4 year-old niece.
Little kids say things like that. I say this to all of you who hold such thoughts in response to this situation.

It is children who say "He started it!"....adults say "how can we resolve this?".


Who started what is quite relevant in the adult world, and I don't see why it wouldn't be equally relevant on the Internet. I think your attitude is just a method of diffusing responsiblity.

EtNorskTroll said...

Good.

I'm glad to see all of your posts.

Now that it is agreed that calling others names is no way to resolve this issue, let us get to the work at hand of doing just that: resolving this rift.

Any ideas (I'm speaking to the adults of this board, of course)?

Anyone?

I suggest humility & honesty...on the part of both parties.

(For those who AREN'T interested in resolving this rift and WANT to see it prolonged/fester: please toddle off. The adults have work to do. Thanks.)

~Norsk Troll

Cincinnatus said...

Well, first Charles needs to retract and apologize to Fjordman for his false charges (the subject of this thread). Once that's done, then we can talk.

Of course, it'll never happen, so that's that. Back to the real world.

FreeSpeech said...

Fjordman

The only thing that counts is that you continue to publish. I read some of your articles and I value them (and I particularly liked the ones about Science and the Greeks).

Your voice matters. Your analyses help.

Keep going.

Henrik said...

NorskTroll, you'll probably not like what I'll suggest now. But since you seem to be about the only one here who still has a living LGF account, and he doesn't bother respond to emails from me, I suggest:

Tell Charles that the big, bad WhiteSupremacy neo-Nazi movement that he believes will soon be devastating fo the image of Europe is merely:

A figment of his imagination.

That's good news, it's not name-calling, and it's factual.

Then lean back and see what happens...

Ed Mahmoud said...

ETNorsk

May I also suggest you ask Charles about his stated reason for not replying to Fjordman, that he doesn't use his real name, when LGF is full of anonymous posters using aliases, and the good work of one of them, 'Zombie', has inspired many an LGF thread.


You could also ask why Fjordman was banned, other than disagreeing with Charles.

Henrik said...

Troll, another, perhaps more discreet suggestion would be that whenever Vlaams Belang or the CJ summit is mentioned at LGF, you post a pointer to this JihadWatch thread:

www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018805.php

It has a lot of useful debate (some say it was the longest JW thread to date), as well as relevant quotes and links to the relevant documentation.

I expect that some lizards will dig through it and make use of it. It's a more indirect way to help Charles back on course.

sheik yer'mami said...

The canniballistic lizards are indeed unhinged, Charles Johnson poisoned the well and his sycopants can't up drink up the cool aid fast enough.

No answers, no solutions, no concept of how to deal with the islamo-fascist scourge.
We need allies, but these cyber warriors are obviously not on our side: they are the space cadets of another galaxy. Not impressed.

I also disagree with their arrogance, by which they try to force the American one size fits all idea on Europe. America will never be like Europe, and Europe is not America. Europe is not the dumping ground for the human refuse from the failed African nations, and Europe shall not become EUrabia by invading Muhammedans who come to conquer and destroy.

When you call for internment and deportations on LGF you will be deported, that is not the kind of people I would like to have next to me in the trenches.

Its a long hard slug before us, Fjordman. I appreciate your writing and I welcome you to post on the Winds of Jihad blog

Sheik yer'mami

Conservative Swede said...

Greetings Sheik Yer'mami. We welcometh thee, de-lizardization pioneer.

Chalons said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chalons said...

I too found the adolescent tribalism that erupted at LGF repugnant and repulsive.

Do people have the right to defend their culture, heritage, and identity? Absolutely! Were we Americans who just recently rose up against the US government's insane immigration proposals also labeled as racists, xenophobes, and bigots? Yes. we were. Was the smear attempt successful? No, it was not. Was it expected? Yes it was. Is it hypocritical for Americans to condemn Europeans who share the same outrage what is becoming of their societies? Absolutely!

I must admit that in light of the huge story immigration was in the USA this past summer, I'm a bit astonished that the LGF mob could so easily be played off as useful idiots. Emotions trumped intellect in the latest controversy at LGF. In accordance with politically correct indoctrinations they've received at university, a keyword was spoken and the lizards dutifully put on their myopic blinders. It was the death of discernment on full display. The idea that a society or people can only atone for any real, perceived, or alleged sins of ancestors by sentencing themselves to cultural extinction is absolutely ridiculous.

I too will be spending much less time at LGF.

Keep up the good work, Fjordman. You have a lot of support from this side of the ocean.

Ed Mahmoud said...

Chalons- I read your remarks before they disappeared.

adolescent tribalism was a good description, IMHO.

1389 said...

Ed Mahmoud,

I would like to get in touch with you. Please leave a message here.

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

I've never been at LGF, so I wouldn't really know what's going on. But, after reading all of this, I've come to realize one thing: they would call me a nazi now.

Why, you may ask?

Let me explain (and yes, this may take a while).

I've always been a left liberal. Live and let live. But a couple of weeks ago I was in Switzerland, in Bern. Beautiful little city. I had to go there as part of the job, but afterwards I decided to stay two more days, because, well, as I said it's a nice little city, with friendly people. So yeah, I stayed.

Well, then came the day when I decided to see more of Bern. I came down to the Bundesplatz and saw that there were a couple of guys working on a stage. Now I was getting curious. So I asked around a bit and was told that the SVP would be holding a rally there. SVP? What's that? I had no idea, after all, I barely watch TV (not that Austrian TV is showing much about Swiss politics anyway) and I don't read newspapers (most of the stuff they write about here is not interesting enough for me to waste money on it, and those papers I read usually don't show much about European politics in general (Japan Times, Asahi Shimbun, etc))

SVP, fine. So I moved on, not really caring about what was going on. I was a tourist, nothing else, why would I give a damn?

Well... I ended up giving a damn. Oh yes I did. Because after several hours of exploring the town, talking with people, sneaking around away from the typical tourist roads I returned to the Bundesplatz.

And suddenly I thought I was in the wrong movie. People with disguised faces were rampaging around, a small truck was burning and civilians kept a save distance from the rioters. What the F?

So those guys kept on rioting there and they also tried to demolish the SVP stage. For me, that ruled out right-winged groups. Why? Well, the only thing I knew about the SVP up until that point, was that they were "right wing extremists", according to German and Austrian media. And "right wing extremists" wouldn't really demolish their own stage, would they? So that left the left wing, and ultimately, that proved to be true.

So it seemed that I had just encountered the "freedom of speech" that fellow left-wingers have in mind. If you can't argue against them properly, use violence. Appalling.

Then, later in the evening, I turned on my laptop, and had a look at the SVP website, because I wanted to know how "evil" they really were. They must be really evil, if their opponents have to behave like this.

But wait!

While I was reading the program and ideals of this party it began to dawn on me that, maybe, they weren't really as evil as everybody liked to claim. The different points in their program all made sense to me, and I believe they were absolutely justified. And the only answer the left wing had for the SVP was uncontrolled violence?

That was, I admit, a quite sobering little event. So... good bye left-wing liberalism, you're quite ugly when looking closer. Hello right-wing liberalism, you actually don't look so bad.

That said, I am Austrian, not European. People in Sweden or Spain, they are not MY people. I have no problems with the Spanish or Swedes, but we're not one people. I'm Austrian (and part-time Japanese (long story)). I don't have a problem with foreigners, as long as they adapt to us and our way. There is no excuse for a foreigner spending 30 years here and still not being able to speak our language. I spend, at least, 6 weeks per year in Japan, I have to adapt there. If I don't, well, then I'm screwed.

I know, people quickly pull out the "RACIST!" mace and whack away. And going by the ideals of the university of Delaware... Well, I'm white, how dare I, and being white means being racist, according to them. Ironically, my ex gf is Japanese, definitely not an example of the white, aryan master race. The woman I'm currently "courting" is Japanese, too. Oh yes, I must be a horrible racist.

So yeah, I guess LGF would scream "racist" at me because:
I'm white
I agree with the ideas of the SVP
I wish that an Austrian party would have the guts to be like them
I'm tempted to vote for the FPÖ in future elections (especially after the SPÖ, which I usually vote for, betrayed us all (Eurofighter, university fees, and -worst of all- the EU treaty))
I think the VB has some valid points in their argumentation (and I can understand that they are angry)
I think that the SD are absolutely right
I'm appalled at what's happening in Norway (rise of rape and violence due to immigration)
I believe that, in Austria, the Austrian Way of Life is the way to live (just like I believe that in Japan it's the Japanese way)
I also think that a foreigner has to adapt to the country he/she visits/wants to live in

Yep, I'm a racist... And a nazi... and, while we're at it, I'm also part of the Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, not to mention I'm also a Free Mason and an Illiminati and... uhm...

WTF?

Henrik said...

After seeing the latest hate-post against VB at LGF, I've decided for myself to consider LGF a hate-site. The details have been rehashed so often they hardly need repeating.

I'd rather read The Daily Kos. Honestly.

And, I think we should stop linking to LGF. It's counterproductive.

FurCoveredCarrot said...

I'm sorry if this is a repeat post, but my first one is not showing up.

For Ed the weather guy (Ed Mahmoud): I'm dismayed that Mr. Johnson banned you.

You were probably the most innocuous, harmless poster there! From what I read, he had no basis to ban you.

I don't see how you defending someone for posting under a screen name instead of their real one is justifiable grounds for dismissal.

Cincinnatus:
Regarding your example of the big Nazi who comes to your defense before a Jihadi can harm you, but then Johnson of LGF tackles the Nazi guy.

I think the concern by most LGFers is more like -

After the Nazi guy tackles the Islamo-fascist guy, what's to stop the Nazi guy from then attacking or discriminating people who are not perceived to be white or of the "proper" or acceptable religious/ ethnic background?

Who says that Nazi types would stop just at eliminating the extremist Muslims? Maybe Jews would be next.

Other thoughts...

I'm a casual visitor to LGF. I hardly post there, and I can go for days/ weeks/ to months without visiting.

I still find LGF to be of some value and interest, so I like to glance over the home page.

However, I do agree to a point with some of its critics that there is 'group think' there at times.

On occasion, I think that Mr. Johnson's reasoning for banning someone or taking a certain stand on whatever issue was justified, and at other times, I'm not so sure.

I do not agree with or like Mr. Johnson's policy of banning people for simply posting at, or belonging to, blogs or discussion boards he personally does not like, such as "Gulf Coast Pundit."

As far as they (GCP) are concerned, to an extent I sympathize with them. I understand wanting to publicy air one's displeasure at being banned (especially for trivial reasons, or for not being warned before the banning), but some of the GCP crowd are quite childish, in that even a year later, they still call Mr. Johnson names and gripe about having been banned from LGF. They really make themselves look bad.

Some of the GCP crowd that was first banned from LGF were out of line, I believed, so I wasn't completely sympathetic with them.

I recall right before they were let go, some of them acted arrogantly. They behaved as though it were their blog, and they resented any and all new LGF members.

I was someone who was somewhat new to LGF, and I didn't like that mindset that only the veterans were worthwhile and the newbies could just take a hike.

They were very much a little clique, some of whom were quick to be rude to any newer members who didn't agree with them on every matter.

One habit I've seen of posters in this thread (and at GCP) is to insult every single reader at LGF. I for one am not a "sheeple," nor am I stupid.

So I do wish those who have problems with Mr. Johnson would limit their complaints to him alone, instead of casting blanket insults toward everyone and anyone who lurks at, or sometimes posts, to his blog.

I'm not even terribly interested in the Fjordman/ European debate.

Mr. Johnson posted about the Fjordman/ Nazi stuff a million times everyday for many days in a row, and I was thoroughly bored with it after the second or third thread.

I kept wishing he'd get back to 'regular' subjects.

Having said that, my own opinion is that... well, I see both sides.

I understand the European concern with being over-run with Muslims to the point that your own unique cultural/national identity melts away and is over-taken with Korans and minarets. I do not consider such a concern to be racist.

On the other hand, I totally understand the reluctance of your opponents to get involved with European groups who have any links to any Nazi/ anti-Semitic organizations in any way, shape, or form.

I'm in the middle on a lot of these things; I can see things from both sides.

One thing that makes me particuarly sad, though, is that if I were to admit that on LGF (that I'm not completely on one side or the other), I'd probably be banned for it.

My impression is that you have to be either 100% for Mr. Johnson's views, or you're not terribly welcome there. I'm not saying he's like that all the time on all topics, but I've seen it happen over the past couple of years.