Monday, August 06, 2007

The Strange Bedfellows Syndrome

Update: I failed to make my opinions about David Irving and Holocaust denial clear.

I consider Holocaust denial to be reprehensible. And I support unequivocally Mr. Irving’s right to say and publish his sentiments.

I have said before that his trial and imprisonment were a travesty. Besides being wrong, they aid the cause of anti-Semitism by giving it the cachet of the forbidden.

Political free speech must be unconditional.


If you’re a Counterjihad blogger — and especially if your blog features the writings of Fjordman — then you get used to being linked by some unsavory websites. Opposition to Multiculturalism and unchecked immigration automatically attracts the kind of readers with whom one would not want to be associated.

To put it bluntly, Gates of Vienna gets a lot of referrals from white supremacist, Nazi, and Jew-hating websites.

We oppose the Islamization of the West, and so do they. We oppose mass Third-World immigration, and so do they. There’s not much we can do about this, short of abandoning our position on immigration.

Arbeit Macht FreiNo matter how many times we state prominently our support for Israel and the Jews, no matter how many times we decry all the racism that masquerades as science, the representatives of the Master Race keep turning up here. Sometimes they leave comments, and when they cross the red line into outright racism, I delete their remarks. Occasionally they return with sneering anger and contempt for us and our foolish ignorance.

And so it goes.

I mention this because of an incident brought to my attention by IceViking. He discovered that Jan Milld, a writer for the Swedish magazine Blågula Frågor, had crossed the line into Holocaust denial. The relevant quote, appearing in a piece about the notorious Holocaust-denier David Irving, is translated thus:

There is no technical evidence regarding the presence of gas-chambers; what is now in Auschwitz was built after the war. The writing of history in this context is based entirely on witness testimony.

[…]

In this parcel is included the figure of 6 million — that many Jews were murdered by the Nazis. From the beginning however it was claimed that there were four million that were executed only in Auschwitz, subsequently official numbers for Auschwitz has been reduced with about 2-3 million. Does not simple mathematics tell you then that the total number of 6 million should be reduced to a corresponding degree?

When I read something like this, I immediately think, “This person is an anti-Semite, and is carefully cloaking it by taking a moderate and reasoned tone in his writings.” Very few people question the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz unless they are Jew-haters.

Jan Milld recently emailed IceViking about the issue:
- - - - - - - - - -
Subject: What to you mean?

To the responsible parties of the website “Icevikings”

You have on your website put out an attack on me, with an accusation of me being a “Holocaust-denier.”

Regarding this, a question:

What more exactly do you put into that notion?

What is it that I’ve denied?

Jan Milld

And Milld, in a public response to IceViking’s posts, has said this:

This latter quote of mine was possibly careless to have written, because I haven’t actually devoted enough interest to this issue so that I know this with a certainty. On the other hand: is there anyone who claims that the facilities that are now on display for tourists in Auschwitz were built before the war?

In that case then I back out from that claim — it is not an issue that I want to take a fight on. Overall I don’t see this as an issue for presently — more than 60 years after the Second World War — to be put high on the agenda.

[…]

Regardless how many Jews died during the Second World War and regardless in what way this happened, I regard this as horrible. And ditto for the death of 20 million Russians.

The most important thing is that we in the future try to avoid that more Jews have to die. As well as Russians, Palestinians or other people having to die.

OK, so now he’s trying to duck out of it. I would, too, if I were he. A little too mealy-mouthed for my taste, and a little too late.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

IceViking asked me to contact Fjordman and Steen about this issue, since Fjordman allowed his writings to be posted on Milld’s blog, and Steen has blogrolled him.

Fjordman was appalled by the passages mentioned above. He asked that his work be removed from Milld’s blog, which it was.

Steen is also disturbed by what has happened, and says he is looking into the matter (presumably in the original Swedish version).

This “Strange Bedfellows Syndrome” is an ongoing problem. We all have to be alert about it — I’ve had to remove links from our blogroll when certain passages in the linked blogs were pointed out to me.

I can’t kick them out of bed, but I can move as far as possible to the other side and put a bundling board between us.

34 comments:

Vol-in-Law said...

Real neo-Nazis side with the Islamists, and celebrated 9/11 - as far as they're concerned, Jews control the West, so anything that hurts the West is great with them.

Re the holocaust - my wife is strongly Zionist, but a little research by her revealed that the 6 million figure is derived from a several-stage calculation taking the highest possible figure at each stage, and is very unlikely to be the actual figure. It seems more likely that the Nazis murdered around 3-4 million Jews in Europe. I don't think saying so makes me anti-Semitic; I'm strongly pro-Israel.

YoelB said...

I did quite a bit of study at one point and every good estimate I ever saw was for 5-6 million. The 3-4 million figure is about right for the death camps.
It doesn't take into account the many hundreds of thousands killed by Einsatzgruppen, or who died of deliberately induced starvation and disease, or who were worked to death as slaves.
Yad vaShem in Israel has around 4 million verified names.

KG said...

Quibbling about the numbers is almost obscene--we all know what happened, we know why and we know who did it.
One million or ten, it makes no difference to the horror of it.

ZionistYoungster said...

On Up Pompeii, the thread about the racially-discriminated English girl got a link to Stormfront. Collateral damage, I suppose, resultant of the occasional meeting of interests. Like a link to an atheism site I once got to my blog (unexpected because most atheists readers would call me a religious fundamentalist--but kudos to them for being, like Hitchens, anti-Islam, unlike many of their peers).

spackle said...

2 million, 3 million or 6 million. I think the point here is that a lot of jews ( as well as others) were systematically killed for no other reason than hate and paranoia. The jews only "crime" was being adept and successful in business which some scholars say goes back centuries due to the diaspora. IMHO anyone who denies that genocide took place might as well deny the entire war. My grandfather ( a jew) who was one of the most honest people I have ever known had the pleasure/ displeasure of liberating a death camp. It haunted him until his dying day. He told me of one human skeleton who just kept wandering around weeping and repeating "why,why,why" until he dropped dead. And now we have Jews in England who are being harassed and attacked by Muslim youths. To deny the holocaust is just an example of what is killing us today. The denial that unmittigated immigration of the third world to the first is cultural genocide. That the EU is a benevolent institution with Europes best interests in mind. Denial that if pushed too far the Multiculturists could create a monster that would make Hitler look like a schoolgirl. I am frightend that 50 years from now another grandfather will be repeating the same story. Only this time he will have an answer for that skeletal figure questioning why? Denial.

Ypp said...

I believe, the lesson of WW2 is that nothing good can come from the mixture of despare inside and superiority complex as a governing idea. For counterjihad, the lesson is straitforward: we need hope but don't think that we are superior. We will survive not because we are superior but because we have the right to be ourselves. We are not teaching barbarians a lesson but protect our existance, which we have all rights to do. And nazis will only drag us into another desperate adventure, which will kill all our chances still remaining.

Uncle Pavian said...

Senator John Kerry has taken to denying the re-education camps, political liquidations, mass arrests and killing fields of Southeast Asia after the Communists took over. Since few Jews were living in that place, it's starting to look as if there's something more than anti-Semitism at work.
As for how many Jews Hitler killed, didn't Stalin say something about how one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic?

YoelB said...

The numbers are important, because each number was a living human being. In some cases, where entire families were wiped off the earth, the number is the only memorial we have.

I get very nervous when people start nickel-and-diming well established numbers down, because (speaking of strange bedfellows again) that is a common tactic of the pseudoscholars who are Holocaust revisionists.

I certainly don't hold with those who make the Holocaust into a religion, but we must exert ourselves to put the lie not just to the revisionists, but to Stalin: a million deaths aren't just a statistic. When a person starts saying "a million here, a million there, we all know what happened" he has started to think like Stalin.

Gringo_Malo said...

I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to argue the validity of the Holocaust story on the basis of the technical evidence. I am rather puzzled as to why Europeans find it necessary to lock people up for denial or miniminization of the Holocaust. You've selectively failed to mention that "the notorious Holocaust-denier David Irving" was imprisoned for several months in Austria, for words rather than deeds. That a Holocaust orthodoxy must be imposed by force of law makes me skeptical ipso facto.

In any case, Holocaust denial is not a crime in Sweden yet, as far as I know. We still have free speech in America, this week. Laws against free speech can be a double-edged sword. Should your opponents come to power, you'll find yourself muzzled.

By the way, I wouldn't worry about links from white supremacists. If you oppose any part of the multicultural agenda (e.g., open borders), you've probably been labeled as a neo-Nazi anyway.

Darrin Hodges said...

The first commenter is correct. The neo-nazi's do side with the Islamists as they share the same goals, conspiracy theories and to some extent, the same ideology.

Figures such a Duke and Toben use the defense of "free speech" as a fig-leaf for their own antisemitism. If one were really concerned about the diminution of "free speech" one would choose a topic other than the Holocaust. I, like most people I think, find it offensive to quibble over "numbers". Each "number" represented a human life, with connections to other human lives, connections that were brutally severed by evil.

I have to deal with being attacked by Neo-Nazi's in Australia, they are offended that I place them on the same level as the Islamists. Frankly, both ideologies have to be opposed, both ideologies are anti-western, anti-capitialist, anti-democratic and anti-Christian. They are being given oxygen by the stupidity of our governments and their commitment to open-ended immigration and multiculturalism and unless WE step up, people will increasingly turn to groups like the KKK or the neo-nazis, they will turn to anybody who will defend them against the predations of the establishment.

We have seen in history how people have turned to a saviour who promised salvation, only to find themselves being led into the abyss.

Conservative Swede said...

Well, regarding the 6 million figure, the average GoV reader here is obviously is on the same page as Jan Milld about this. It's a no-brainier that this figure is questionable as an exact figure. It has elevated into a symbolic, mythological figure, no longer connected to science. But the average GoV reader is too smart to fall for that, quite as Jan Milld. The figure is something we can agree to disagree about.

Regarding the fact that the case against Nazi gas chambers is based on witnesses and not on technical evidence, this is also what I found when I plunged into this issue some 4-5 years ago. The Germans destroyed as many traces as they could, and since all the death camps ended up on the Russian side whatever technical evidence that was remaining was lost. I feel that I might need to stress to the Baron, the very obvious, that pointing out (correctly or not) that a case was built on witnesses and not on technical evidence is not the same thing as saying that the verdict was wrong.

These are the only two things that Jan Milld claimed. Hardly incriminating. But the decisive blow against Jan Milld is of course how Inquisitor Bodissey looks with his inner eye and declare to the populace how he feels that Jan Milld is an anti-Semite.

Well, I didn't expect the kind of Spanish Inquisition!

Baron Bodissey is of course driven by fear here. And so is Fjordman obviously. They put their reputation at stake in what they do. And they fear to end up on the wrong side, or being perceived as doing so. This is bound to trigger wrongful and unreasonable knee-jerk reflexes. These kind of emotional reflexes is what constitutes the whole phenomenon of political correctness in our culture. I have encountered similar emotional knee-jerk reactions from Lawrence Auster recently. My conclusion is that Western civilization is pathetic, and that you will not find a single Westerner without these faulty reflexes. People all through history have been driven by fear, but Westerners are driven by fear of the wrong things.

And just to top the misery. Snaphanen just reported that Muslim immigration in Denmark has increased the last five years. All under the supposedly hard-hitting anti-immigration policy. Higher inflow of Turks and Pakistanis than before! Thank you Pia Kjersgaard.

All while Paul Belien is praising the Turkish Islamic party, AKP, for keeping Allah in the equation. To throw away Allah is not acceptable in the eyes of Belien, and it leads to evil secularism where the state is put in the place of god. What can I say, Christianity is our doom, our sure way to dhimmitude.

Bye bye Western civilization! We will live as Jews in the future, without a home, without a country. This is what all Westerners are programmed to work towards. Anyway, I have decided that I'm fine with that. The Jews have managed, so so can I. And there's nothing I can do, this is our destiny. As demonstrated by Baron Bodissey, Paul Belien, Jim Kalb, Lawrence Auster and even Fjordman (if I'm supposed to believe the Baron). All showing the wrong kind of reflexes, and the reflexes is all that counts when it really matters. And since these guys where the ones I thought I could trust, the creme de la creme of the West, I have decided to give up.

I will opt for living as a "Jew" where there are no Muslims. I guess I'll be heading for Latin America.

pleas said...

With regard to Pavian's remarks about Kerry, may I venture the opinion that "Uncle Pavian" is either half-literate, or a liar? This is what Kerry said, taken off a conservative blog:

KERRY:  Let me just say to the first part of your question with respect to boat people and killing, everybody predicted a massive bloodbath in Vietnam.  There was not a massive bloodbath in Vietnam.  There were reeducation camps, and they weren’t pretty and, you know, nobody, you know, likes that kind of outcome.  But on the other hand, I’ve met lot of people today who were in those education camps, who are thriving in the Vietnam of today.

Kerry is not denying the killing fields of Cambodia - he is rather stating facts about Vietnam. As for denying reeducation camps, Kerry actually does the opposite (affirming their existence) ,as opposed to Pavian's claim. Perhaps it's time for a little reeducation, Pavian? (It's called learning to read and interpret what you've read.)

ahmad said...

Let's subject your thoughts about keeping west free of islam and stopping immigrants from coming to west to : Where is the evidence that supports your thoughts.
First and foremost:
-West is not just christian today (wake up and think about this) and will never be just christian. West will always have sons like Ernest Renan(not immigrant nor muslim) who will justifiably and with very rational terms appose what your "thoughts" are.

-West needs immigrant. The economy is based on that. Next time the great economies of the west brags about their GDP...just remember how many immigrants contribute to it; once the canadians wanted to keep canada "white" but then realised that Asians(chinese) do a great job in building the much needed railway lines across this huge country. That is just the reality, schizoid disorders will always be disorders no matter how the sufferer supports their thoughts with words.
- West can be compared to an organization or company or in simple terms a work place...it is a workplace for muslims,and non muslims. Workplace has everything from culture to spirituality and if one group "thinks" or "believes" (those two words are different from KNOW) that they are THE righteous ones; it is sure that Titanic will sink again and again. my two cents and the other side of the coin

gun-totin-wacko said...

This post just brought to my mind a long-forgotten conversation I had. When I was a whippersnapper, back around 1980, I worked with a guy from Iran. We were talking once about his country, and the hostages there. He was anti-Shah and ant- Khomeini. In the course of the conversation, I made a comment about how I had read something suggesting the number of murder/torture victims of the Shah was lower than originally stated. He looked at me and asked "Can I tell you a story?" I replied in the affirmative, not sure what was coming. He told me a brief story of a woman who answered a knock at her door one day to find a mob there. The leader of the mob told her "we have come for your husband, because we found out that he killed 100 people." The woman looked at him in shock and said "That's not true. It was only 25".

I got the point immediately, and decided to STFU.

As for the 6 million figure, to be honest I never gave it much thought. It's such a widely quoted number that I always *assumed* there must be some validity to it.

Of course, I know that as a percentage of overall population, the Jews were not the biggest victims, so I guess I get a couple points for that.

Uncle Pavian said...

Hmm. Semi-literate, eh? I'm not the one who went to Nantucket Island Nantucket Island and delivered a limerick that was missing a syllable in the first line.Might as well call me a racist while you're at it.
Here's what James Taranto at OpinionJournal.com had to say about Senator Kerry's statement:
On Saturday The Wall Street Journal and this Web site published a letter to the editor from Sen. John Kerry, wherein he responded to the July 26 op-ed in which we took the senator to task for his statement: "We heard that argument over and over again about the bloodbath that would engulf the entire Southeast Asia, and it didn't happen."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010435
Not the same statement at all.
As Mr. Taranto points out, Mr. Kerry "faults [him] for taking what he said at face value and ignoring his unspoken nuances." Nuances, we should add, that only became apparent when people realized what he had said (as happened earlier with the "botched joke"). Unlike the Holocaust deniers, Mr. Kerry doesn't even have the courage to stick to his version of history.

ln said...

'Conservative Swede' is back -- and almost expressing my own (in Swedish) reflection from yesterday:

"These are the only two things that Jan Milld claimed. Hardly incriminating. But the decisive blow against Jan Milld is of course how Inquisitor Bodissey looks with his inner eye and declare to the populace how he feels that Jan Milld is an anti-Semite. Well, I didn't expect the kind of Spanish Inquisition!"
- - - - - -
"And since these guys where the ones I thought I could trust, the creme de la creme of the West, I have decided to give up."

That would be most tragic!
- - - - - - - - -
I just wonder why this probabely deranged ICE-VIKING (ascending from nowhere) succeeded in being so convincing!
- - - - - - - -
The following is the most ridiculous I have read in a long time.
Most old-womanish! or 'Ni betér er som riktiga kärringar!'

"IceViking asked me to contact Fjordman and Steen about this issue, since Fjordman allowed his writings to be posted on Milld’s blog, and Steen has blogrolled him."
and
"Fjordman was appalled by the passages mentioned above. He asked that his work be removed from Milld’s blog, which it was."

Conservative Swede said...

Dear LN,

I have seen you around, and I have appreciated your contributions a lot. And I'm not surprised that you saw the things in the same way, independently of me.

Sweden is the most developed stage of soft-totalitarian political correctness. Most Westerners have not really got a full sense of what this means. But as a Swede you can recognize the situation within a blink of the eye. You and I, LN, can see immediately if something is Sweden or not.

Last year the Faith Freedom International (FFI) forum turned into Sweden. Yes, the forum that was started by Ali Sina. It is now dominated by two gays and their harem of Britney Spears types. (I could add that I do not have a problem with people having homo-sex if the want to, the issue is when they adopt gay culture, and make it the core part of their self-image. These kind of gays always end up on the wrong side of all the important issues. It's a rule. However, homosexuals as Swedish blogger Dick Erixon, who is not flaunting it, has another type of self-identity, and is just like us).

So last year the FFI forum turned into Sweden. I took a tough position vis-a-vis Islam compared to the wimpy gays. Too tough for their delicate multi-culti sensibilities. So one of these gays took a text of mine and replaced every instance of "Muslims" with "Jews", and showed it to the others saying, look here how bad it really is. This old trick I have of course so often been faced with in Sweden. It's the oldest trick in the PC bag of standard tricks.

It was at this point I could see how the FFI forum had perfectly turned into Sweden. Yes, the forum once started by Ali Sina, which was a great place just a few years ago. Now it is Sweden. So I left, and never came back. It's of course completely pointless to secretly participate in an Internet forum, when I can get the exactly the same experience by just walking out of the door into the streets where I live.

I see that Baron Bodissey has posted an update about him being in favour of free speech, after I wrote my comment yesterday. I seems to be his way of answering my criticism. His update shows that he's completely tone deaf about the issue. But you and I know, LN. Because we see the very same instance when something has turned into Sweden. Declaring their allegiance to free speech while acting PC inquisitor and ostracizer of some innocent guy is typical typical PC behaviour. The herd mentality of Iceviking, the Baron and Fjordman running in the same direction without even checking facts is a very typical mechanism of the PC society. We have it all in display here before our eyes at Gates of Vienna. So yes, LN, we got ourselves a moment of Sweden here in an otherwise pleasant garden.

The Baron (as the inquisitor) and Fjordman (as the fellow traveler) I still consider the greatest of people. But this is also why this observation is so highly significant and devastating. Westerners simply have bad reflexes deep deep into their cores. The knot of the Western myths that makes us commit collective suicide is all tied up in these WWII events. If they cannot be discussed level-headedly, if these myths cannot be explored as myths, then this knot will not be untied. Appearantly, GoV is still far from being ready for that.

Conservative Swede said...

LN: "And since these guys where the ones I thought I could trust, the creme de la creme of the West, I have decided to give up."

That would be most tragic!


Actually I disagree. On the contrary, the tragic thing would be to continue. These things are not going to be solved with words anyway. And we see how one can be writing for many years, as Jan Milld, and then within the whim of the moment, everyone that are supposed to be his allies turn against him, ostracizing him (by not blogrolling him, asking him to remove their material, etc.). Just for being one tiny step ahead of the herd. Of course, probably already two years from now the Baron etc. will be on the very same page as Jan Milld about this, and also see the importance of questioning the holiness of the central myths that turned or civilization suicidal.

No one will ever thank you for being ahead of the herd.

So well, I have not exactly given up. I have just decided to wait for the other people to catch up with me. Things will turn ugly while they go through their transformations. Quite as we've just seen here with the Baron going ugly on Jan Milld. And most of the time it will be much uglier than this comparatively harmless incident. People with go through Linda Blair like convulsions. I just don't want to be around when they're spurting their vomit around. Only a masochist would want to be part of this "dialog". So, yes I have given up the idea of convincing people with words. It's clear to me that they will become convinced in other ways.

Now this is all clear to me. It's reached certainty. So finally there is no more doubt in my mind. This has been made very clear to me recently by Paul Belien, Lawrence Auster, Denmark and Baron Boddisey.

I'm sure I won't stop writing altogether since I enjoy it. But it is completely clear to me now that there is no mission in it.

So LN, let's enjoy life while we can. People are idiots, but what the heck. Life is fun. Leave the computer, there are so many great things that can be done! And we only live once. The tragic thing would be to waste our time on something that is futile. As I said, I'll now be waiting for the other people to catch up. And I intend to thoroughly enjoy my time in the meantime.

ln said...

Conservative Swede,

Com on now, do not be so bloody depressed!

You choose to appoint me to an understanding confederate, very nice of you, but in so doing I miss that sharpness of yours I used to admire in your earlier writings in topics of counterjihadism, often on a level far above my eyebrows. I do not part your opinion of GoV having turned into Sweden, not even for a moment. Let us go on with the Vienna 'Gartenbummel', it must not be limited to Schönbrunn or Belvedere, let us go over to the more sober Stadtpark instead. GoV (Garden of Vienna) is one of the effective lungs most needed in the struggel against Mohammedanism and that the gardener a very seldom time might make himself guilty of a misjudgement does not disturb the totale importance of neighter his work nor this garden bridgehead. I myself am an antiislamic nobody, I am just a sorry squirrel (Ratatosk) trying to do the best of my limited capacity to support the 'eagle at the top', and now and then throwing a stone here or there where I judge it could be effective.
CS, do not act as a primadonna threatning to leave for Latin America -- you are needed just here. Why not cooperate with Milld, Järvenpää and other crusaders?

Baron Bodissey said...

acting PC inquisitor and ostracizer of some innocent guy

Conservative Swede, I may be tone-deaf, but you've got a nerve pegging me as a PC inquisitor and ostracizer, seeing that you repeatedly insult me here in these comments and I don't even delete them.

Jan Milld can do the same thing if he wants.

PC inquisitor, my ass.

p.hanrahan said...

You start this post with a self righteous statement about absolute freedom of (political) speech and then promptly slander, denigrate and ostracise a colleague for making what must be seen as a political comment. He may not have considered it a political comment at the time, but it certainly has not been treated as simply musing about numbers. Querying numbers does not deny the horror, does not support what happened. The treatment of Jan Milld is shameful. You and the other PC inquisitors should apologise to him and stop being hypocritical.

gun-totin-wacko said...

So wait: Somebody said something the Baron didn't like, so he criticized it, and told someone else, who criticized it to someone else again, who insisted they don't like it. Then we have somebody who didn't like what the Baron said, and don't even get him started about what the other guy said. And finally, we have somebody who's now been proven to be better than anybody else because he agrees with what somebody else said, namely that he's better than anyone else, except the other guy. And they're especially better than the Baron and the other guy who said something that just proves that they're ignorant, and thus nowhere near as cool as the other guy who's really cool. And smart too. Unlike the Baron and the other guy.

This story started out confusing, and now has just become ridiculous.

YoelB said...

What Jan Milld's defenders are missing (I hope, else they are deliberately perverse) is the following:

In this parcel is included the figure of 6 million — that many Jews were murdered by the Nazis. From the beginning however it was claimed that there were four million that were executed only in Auschwitz, subsequently official numbers for Auschwitz has been reduced with about 2-3 million. Does not simple mathematics tell you then that the total number of 6 million should be reduced to a corresponding degree?

No, simple mathematics only tells you that if you are too lazy to do some elementary research, or else are deliberately denying historical truth. In this instance, Wikipedia gives a good summary of the field. There were nearly 4 million murdered and robbed in the death camps, and

In addition to those who died in the above extermination camps, at least half a million Jews died in other camps, including the major concentration camps in Germany. These were not extermination camps, but had large numbers of Jewish prisoners at various times, particularly in the last year of the war as the Nazis withdrew from Poland. About a million people died in these camps, and although the proportion of Jews is not known with certainty, it was estimated to be at least 50 percent. Another 800,000 to 1 million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories (an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen killings were frequently undocumented). Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.

If Milld, ln, and Conservative Swede are persons of goodwill, they should realize that their thinking is based on false and tendentious information. If their sources of this misinformation are decent people, they will be glad to learn the truth. If they are not, then Milld et al have some soul searching to do.

But decent people don't continue to defend the indefensible and try to minimize proven atrocities like defense lawyers. The verdict is in.

If it's any consolation, Gotz Aly's Hitler's Beneficiaries is a good account of how the Nazis created a good socialist welfare state for their Aryan citizens by plundering the rest of Europe (directly and through currency manipulation and banking skulduggery) in addition to their murder and robbery of European Jewry. So if you oppose socialism it's really OK to oppose the Nazis.

Conservative Swede said...

LN: Com on now, do not be so bloody depressed!

Actually, LN, I'm happier then ever. I see things so clearly now, and my mind is not troubled anymore. I think I have come to the end of the process, and I feel released and free.

I see so clearly that I no longer belong among the Christians and post-Christians (the hyper-Christians of the secular left-wing) of the Western civilization. Their problems, which they eagerly continue to create and re-create, are not mine. Under the surface there are many other things, but in the current theater I do not belong. The day our politicians stop talking about our shared Judeo-Christian values and start talking of our shared Roman values instead, that's the day I'll get back into politics. And I do not even think the civilization of ethnic Europeans will be called "Western civilization" any longer, by then.

And I agree with you, the Garden of Vienna is still a nice garden, and I will continue to come back for a good time every now and then. This place has many qualities.

And regarding your last comment. I'm not needed in Sweden. I gave up Sweden long time ago. Why do you think that I see any opportunity or feel any attachment for Sweden if I do not even do it for the Western civilization?

And "crusaders" are nothing but Christian wimps. Acting to lately, too weakly and with no lasting effects. You know, don't you? You've read the history, right? Still you're stuck in the mindset, using the word "crusaders" as there is something tough about it. Crusaders = losers. Big losers, all time.

Conservative Swede said...

gun-totin-wacko said...

So wait: Somebody said something the Baron didn't like, so he criticized it, and told someone else, who criticized it to someone else again, who insisted they don't like it...


Unfortunately this is not how it happened. If it had been, there would not have been a problem here.

This is what happened: Jan Milld wrote a book about mass immigration into Sweden in 1994. In the beginning he got some attention and backing from some of his left-wing friends, most notably Anders Carlberg. But soon it was decided among the establishment that he should be silenced. Journalist talked to journalist, editor talked to editor, telling each other the Milld is untouchable and should be blocked out. No op-eds, no letters to the editor, not even advertising in the media from him or people like him.

This is not disagreement. This is ostracism.

Jan Milld continued to write about immigration and other un-PC topics. Now Iceviking got PC fits about something Milld wrote. And blogger talks to blogger to tell each other that he's untouchable (Holocaust denier) and should be blocked out. The he should be taken off their bloggrolls, implying that he should not be published or referred to in a positive way, that he should be requested to take down anything from his site associating them with him, the untouchable.

This is not disagreement. This is ostracism.

I thoroughly appreciate the efforts of Baron Bodissey and what he do at his site together with Dymphna. GoV is one of the best sites for bringing up issues about Islam to a broad audience. I like the touch where GoV endorses provokations against Muslims, such as burning effigies of Muhammad. A necessary thing as part of effective counter-jihad, endorsed by too few. GoV is avant-garde in many ways. But still so far away...

When I criticize Baron here, I'm criticizing one of the best. Unfortunately "PC inquisitor" and "ostracizer" are precise and clinical terms of how he acted. As anyone how acted thusly, and gets it pointed out to him, of course the Baron takes it as insults. But they are not. They're purely descriptive terms. And the whole situation is a reflection of the society we live in. Most people that the Baron criticize himself has acted in precisely the same way, and for the same reasons, only at a different level. There's something to learn here for all of us.

Any good person, will at some point having made mistakes as these. We have also seen David Horwitz and Robert Spencer getting PC fits triggered by the Undercover Black Man with regards to Lawrence Auster. And Lawrence himself gets fits when Jim Kalb is criticized, or when something more than limited war is suggested against the Islamic empire.

Still I judge people for the net effect they have, and considering that, I should be sending big bouquets of roses to Baron Bodissey, Robert Spencer, David Horowitz and Lawrence Auster. Yes, even to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in spite of her many flaws.

ln said...

My impression is that ' YoelB' and the 'ICE-VIKING' have got lots in common.
Why does an orthodox jew far away in California or on Hawaii mean that he has to have an opinion about the importent and all in Swedish site 'BlåGula Frågor' and its instigator Jan Milld and what the same Jan Milld according to hearsay has said?
Sure we can come to an agreement about 6-7 millions!

If still anybody is interested in facts and the Jewish tragedy, the essay by Götz Aly 'Logik des Grauens' (english translation) is interesting. http://www.signandsight.com/features/800.html/

IceViking said...

For anyone reading this post and thread: You need to read my postings on Milld where I translate and explain everything in full. It is not enough by relying on Baron Bodissey`s quotes. You will find them online here, here and here.

Furthermore here is a quote from one of those posts where Milld first quotes briefly from the Swedish newspaper Metro then proceeds to agree with David Irving that there were no gas-chambers in Auschwitz. And in another translation of Milld we learn that Milld thinks that Sweden has a media dictatorship that is dominated by Jews:

"The second verdict was pronounced in Vienna, Austria.

Metro on the 21st of February 2006:

"HOLOCAUST-DENIER SENTENCED TO THREE YEARS IN JAIL

The British historian David Irving was sentenced to three years in jail by a court in Vienna because he 17 years ago... claimed there were no gas-chambers in the Nazi death-camp Auschwitz."

Relevant here is the fact that David Irving today says he has changed his mind. This was not enough for him to escape jail.

On the other hand his changing of positions is devoid of credibility. From the beginning this was less a matter of expressing an opinion than stating a fact
There is no technical evidence regarding the presence of gas-chambers, what is now in Auschwitz is built after the war. The writing of history in this context is based entirely on witness testimony."

IceViking said...

I just wanted to add that Baron Bodissey did link to these three postings of mine in his post above.

IceViking said...

I also want to make clear that in one of my posts about Milld (all of which I linked to above) I translated the whole piece of Milld`s from which I took the above quote, so it can`t be argued that I have quoted him "out-of-context".

IceViking said...

David Irving only changed his opinions for a brief period out of tactical reasons that he himself admitted later when he again "changed his mind".

ln said...

iceviking,

Your devotion to this matter initially made me assume that you were (1) a psychiatric case -- but I have changed opinion, you (2) must be running someone's errand and you most probabely are getting paid for your dilligent work.
Am I wrong -- is it after all case (1)?
You decide!

Conservative Swede said...

I know what Adbul Hassim would have said :-)

However, the psychological explanation is simple. IceViking is an adherent to any of the two Christianities. He wants to be a Christian hero and feel that he's full of Christian goodness.

Maybe our society is a psychiatric case? Maybe our elite is bribed to run someone else's errands? But in this society of the two Christianities, IceViking is a splendidly apple-pie fellow.

And who doesn't like apple-pie? The Baron does.

I especially like this apple-pie declaration by IceViking:

"In this context I would like to state however that while Holocaust-denial is a dangerous and despicable act I don`t think it should be against the law."

This is the blueprint of the reigning formula for hygiene against anything un-PC in apple-pie Sweden. Witch hunters disingenuously put an ostracizing label upon anyone who do not submit to the communist propaganda style dogmas. Such as how the labels "xenophobic", "racist", Nazi" etc. are glued upon the party of the Sweden Democrats. Quite as IceViking here glue the label "holocaust-denier" upon Jan Milld.

Next comes the apple-pie declaration that "While we think that the Sweden Democrats is a dangerous and despicable party we don`t think it should be illegal."

But it's mandated in Swedish media that whenever the Sweden Democrats are mentioned the epithet "xenophobic" must be inserted before. Quite as we learn from IceViking that "holocaust denier" should be inserted before mentioning Jan Milld. And Steen is put under fire from IceViking for calling Jan Milld honest/honourable. Which is exactly what he is. Surely naive, as the cousin from the countryside. But definitely "hederlig". But calling Jan Milld "hederlig" is like calling the Sweden Democrats good for the interests of Sweden. If you do that you're in collusion with evil.

In the final step the party of the Sweden Democrats, which is legal according to the apple-pie law, cannot get anything at all published in media, not even a single advertisement. The may not come an talk at schools. And if they have a public meeting in the town square, it's sabotaged by the leftists storm-troopers, all while the police look the other way. The same kind of ostracism IceViking has in mind for Jan Milld. And he got Baron Bodissey with him. But the last word is not said yet of how Steen and Fjormand are going to react.

I have two questions for IceViking. I think the most important events of our history deserves to be properly scrutinized. They should not be subject to dogmas of communist propaganda style. So now it's time for the witch hunters to show their true face. Do they have such respect for history?

These are simple factual questions, and not about opinion or expression of fidelity "the cause".

Question 1:
Are there technical evidence of the gas chambers, or is it so that we are relying on evidence of witnesses here? What's your claim? What facts and sources do you base your claim on?

Question 2:
Do you believe that the figure of 6 millions is an exact figure, or do you believe that it is more accurately expressed as an interval. Under which lower bound is someone labeled a holocaust denier? At 3 millions? How is that limit established? Is it "dangerous and despicable" to claim that 3 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, rather then 6 millions. If so, why?

Baron Bodissey, Fjordman and Steen are of course also welcome to answer these questions. If you have any intellectual honour you will at least attempt to answer these questions before ostracizing Jan Milld.

Of course, you can instead choose to completely ignore this as a factual issue, and just to float along with the apple-pie stream. It's up to you.

Aw, I'm hungry. I wonder where I can get some apple-pie?

ln said...

Yes, what would Abdul Hassim have said? Long before the apple-pie era. ;-)

Conservative Swede said...

I was thinking of Abdul Hassim of the Faithfreedom International forum.

Anyway, I'm holier than all the rest of you because I believe that the Nazis killed 7 million Jews.