Sunday, August 26, 2007

REAL Chutzpah

During World War II it seems that the Germans - always orderly and thinking ahead - stashed the contents of the Berlin National Library in a Benedictine monastery in Poland to protect them from Allied bombing runs. After the war, Poland removed what was left to its own archives.

The Germans are claiming they have the right to have the documents returned.

Incredible.

[the outrage ends here]

20 comments:

Archonix said...

In a sense they do have that right. It could be argued that the nazi government placed them there against the national interest. On the other hand it opens up precedents for the return of other national treasures... the elgin marbles, for example, which would have rotted to nothing by now if they were still in Greece.

ln said...

Incredible! Claiming they have the right to have the documents returned.

"May this wound "in Germany's cultural life" fester and become gangrenous. May the cultural life of the once Fatherland be eternally scarred by her Nazi past. May the Blood of the Innocents be upon Germany and its people" -- born long after the war, whose grandfathers were forced into that war -- even until the end of time, and let this people whithout end go on paying tribute to Israel and the Jewry for what their ancesters brought about and last but not least honour to all distinguished and plucky combatants of Nazism like Bomber Harris et all.
Did I say Bomber Harris? - sorry, I meant Butcher Harris.

Profitsbeard said...

The only reasonable reply?

Once the Germans return the millions of dead Poles to life, the Poles will return these pieces of lifeless paper to the small-souled Germans.

Mission Impossible said...

In ... I do admire your turn of irony. Dresden was indeed a War Crime, and it was also completely unnecessary. The deliberate use of Phosphorous bombs, not only on a once beautiful and very historic city, but also against German Civilians taking shelter after fleeing the barbarity of Russian Troops, was also sanctioned by Eisenhower, to whom 'Bomber,' errr, I mean Butcher Harris reported.

The estimates of those incinerated within the streets and buildings of Dresden (including babies still in their mother's arms) vary wildly. Historians who keep looking over their shoulders in fear of offending Jews, claim only 75,000. Others claim about 150,000. What is more likely is that the number who perished is actually closer to 300,000.

Remember, World War II (at least in Europe) was a fatricidal war. We were killing each other whilst Jewish interests prospered at our expense.

The Baron and Dymph are no dummies, but it is both amazing and sad to see just how far they have swallowed the Jewish versions of the Second World War, and of 20th century history.

Dymph writes: ... stashed the contents of the Berlin National Library in a Benedictine monastery in Poland.

What perhaps Dymphna doesn't understand is that the monastry in quesion is only in Poland according to today's borders. But prior to the Weimar Republic, that monastery was probably deep within the German Empire. This is why the contents were stashed there. As far as Germans are concerned, it lay within historically sovereign German territory.

It is sad to witness (and regularly) the amount of hatred and mocking contempt, white American citizens, even today, routinely display towards Germans and Germany. Me thinks my American Gentile cousins need to take a long hard look at themselves because if they keep viewing Western history through a Jewish prism, it will be their turn next.

ZionistYoungster said...

Looks like this post got linked on Stormfront.

Mission Impossible, I for one wish you luck in exposing the Jewish conspiracies, all the Stars of David lurking under every bed. It'll keep you occupied from seeing the crescent-shaped sword, the scimitar of Islam, coming straight before your eyes, approaching your neck, until it is too late.

Archonix said...

Well ignore all of that, there are other more rational reasons for considering the return. Germany today is not the germany that existed back then. It is not our place to continue judging a nation for crimes committed by its antecedents. There are a few germans who need to learn that lesson too, but the guilt of what happened has been hammered in to germans from birth for the last 60 years, as with many other western nations. I certainly agree up to that point that Germany should not be so routinely treated with such malice. She isn't the Germany that Hitler created.

The assumption that these papers are tainted by their association with the nazis is a little naive, I think. The nazis stashed various other national treasures in other countries too, which were later returned in varying amounts as the war generation died out and the next generation, wanting to get on with its life, saw that germanyw as becoming an economic powerhouse worth befriending.

Poland hasn't had that choice though. Poland has spent most of the intervening time under the thumb of the soviet union, which spent a lot of time talking up german crimes and denying its own. The current borders of poland are some several hundred m,iles to teh west of where they were before the war. The soviets arbitararily redrew them to take in a large chunk of Germany proper, within which this monastary seems to have rested. By that light it's more likely they'll have a claim no matter who actually put the stash there.

As many poles were killed by the Soviets as the Germans, and their country was raped and pillaged by russia after the war on the same scale, yet the soviet union got a clean pass and didn't even have to go through the painful moment of national rebirth that was necessary for Germany to excise its association with the nazis.

The sides are not clear-cut. Poland has real grievances with Germany but they need to be put in a wider perspective. Those same grievances are being used by Poland to try and get itself greater representation on the EU commission and in the toy parliament, and bigger voting rights in the European Council and the Council of Ministers. It really wouldn't surprise me if this spat is part of that larger diplomatic battle.

Archonix said...

Incidentally MI, I think you still owe me a grand for that little thing about India. :P

Ethnocentrist said...

I'll steer clear of the potential "anti-semitic" path this topic can lead us to and only ask a simple question. How long does Germany and Germans have to atone for the sins of the past? We are over 70 years past Hitler's rise to power and billions upon billions spent on war reparations. The Nazi regime is dead. The Nazi mentality...dead. The orchestrators of Nazi Germany...dead. The men and women of that time that had their hands dirtied, nearly to a man and woman...dead. We are getting to "sins of the father" territory now. I think people need to get a strong grip of their "anti-Germanicism" as it has become just a wee bit ridiculous. This well of easy vilification has run dry, IMO.

Certainly and absolutely not to apologize for Hitler and Nazism, however, let's see a show of hands that believe an argument is always one-sided as opposed to the tried and true two sides to every story. People need to read history and learn from the past. Not only spout knee jerk "outrage".

Dymphna said...

I don't have a dog in this fight so my response is not "knee-jerk." Nonetheless, the story of the Germans in the 30's and 40's is seared into the European memory. How many musicians and artists did it snuff? And now it wants back some papers? That's chutzpah.

The Poles did a good job of presevering the materials (if you read the whole story at Forbes) which otherwise would have been lost.


But then, down here in the south of the US, we're still fuming over Sherman's march thru Georgia in 1864 and the path of havoc and destruction he created in order to bring the South to its knees. It worked.

Old hatreds die hard. The Germans have always hated the Poles and now that the Poles are on more equal footing, it's payback time in the EU.

As for Russia, it goes to show how marginalized it is that the Poles are not paying attention And that would change if Russia started demanding anything.

In fact, depending on where Russia decides to use its oil leverage, things could get ugly.

Mission Impossible said...

Archonix ... your comment (8/27/2007 9:35 AM) was impressive. 'Twas a good read and also historically correct. Keep posting like that and I'll pay you a salary. Well, maybe not, but 'tis the thought that counts!

Mission Impossible said...

dear dymphna ... you have written many excellent articles in your time, but on this topic you are way out of your depth. You are simply reproducing tired old assumptions, historical distortions, downright lies, and cheap prejudice against the German people.

The story of the Germans in the 40s might be seared into European memory, but the story of the 30s is not. Indeed, one has to go back to the Paris Peace Conference and the 1920s to make proper sense of the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party. Naziism was born out of the despair and hopelessness caused by the activities and actions of a minority group; the very people you and others (because you all feel so intimidated) dare not criticise. That is a very unhealthy situation to be in when you are supposed to be a citizen of the "free-est" nation on earth.

Why do you think ignorant fools like 'zionistyoungster' (above) exist? It's because certain people are very, very scared of the truth ever getting out. There is a great deal at stake. Huge amounts of money, lifestyles, positions of power, and even life itself, all feel threatened whenever someone refuses to accept the orthodox dogma; which is what you were peddling in your original article.

======================

As far as Sherman is concerned, you Southerners should already know, as I am sure you do, that Britain did what it could to help the Confederates. We even built the best battleship afloat at the time for you, at Cammell-Laird shipbuilders, on the River Mersey. I believe you did a lot of damage using it. Everytime I see the Confederate Flag I get a wee lump in my throat. It is a pity that the same international media persists in misrepresenting your cause as one to maintain slavery. It wasn't, as you may know already, but that is a lie that has stuck. Your reasons were far more complex: just like the German situation was between 1920 and 1939.

ZionistYoungster said...

(By "Mission Impossible"--probably chose his handle to indicate the impossibility of the mission of letting him see reason) "Naziism was born out of the despair and hopelessness [...]" - hmmm... the same thing people say today about Muslim suicide-bombers.

"Naziism was born out of the despair and hopelessness caused by the activities and actions of a minority group; the very people you and others (because you all feel so intimidated) dare not criticise." - It's a conspiracy, then.

See, here is one of the things that infuriate me no end. All past accusations against the Jews, including the blood libel, and including the Protocols (or now its updated version by Walt and Mearsheimer), were about scheming behind closed doors and had absolutely no proof to back them up, yet that didn't do a jot to stop the masses, or the governments, from acting on them. But now the Muslims do all their deeds in front of seeing eyes, such as "Islam Will Dominate The World" signs in front of the TV screen, and support of suicide-terrorism in plain sight, and demands for cultural accommodation in your face, but suddenly the world isn't so keen on acting on it, even though there's every kind of proof you could ask for.

"[...] Dare not criticise. [...]", "It's because certain people are very, very scared of the truth ever getting out. There is a great deal at stake." - yeah, yeah, complain about being silenced while the media is full to bursting with the intimations you spout. Just like Jimmy Carter and the aforementioned Walt and Mearsheimer, who cry about "being silenced by the powerful Israel Lobby" while their vicious screeds enjoy best-sellers status. It'd be a great joke if it weren't such a serious matter.

A little more on topic: I agree with people here who say long-past grievances had better be laid to rest. In fact, I'm much less obsessed with the Holocaust than a lot of my friends both in real life and online. My chief concern is present matters: the threat of Islam, the Left/Islam alliance and the denial, much worse than any Holocaust Denial in my opinion, of Jewish nationalism (a.k.a. Zionism) as being an integral part of Judaism, framing it as a 19th-century innovation and thus making me out as a colonialist invader. Historical matters are usually important, but present concerns are much more so.

And to "Mission Impossible", who prompted me to comment here in the first place: again, may you enjoy life under shariah law while unmasking all the activities and actions of that scary, shadowy, spooky and powerful minority group. And after you're done with enjoying that life, long may you bask in the calent flames of the subterranean chamber into which you deserve to be flung.

Ethnocentrist said...

Zionistyoungster,

For starters, logical fallacies do not an argument make. Your examples above of Muslims does NOT preclude the very real possibilities of "conspiracies", as you put it. Oswald not being the lone gunman in the JFK assassination is a "conspiracy", yet any thinking person who has researched that tragic event knows with absolute certainty that Oswald was not acting alone. Further, it is a physical impossibility for him to have acted alone. Yet, to this day, we are fed that tripe because there are more pressing issues for the masses to occupy their time, such as Big Brother and American Idol, or whatever the crap du jour may be.

I also find it more than a bit disturbing for you to equate Walt and Mearsheimer's Israel Lobby with the Protocols in one of your logical fallacies. The Protocols, when researched, have been proven to be lies. The Israel Lobby has been researched with documentation by philo-semitic scholars that did not deserve the smears they received AND predicted they would receive simply by writing about a known truth.

You write above about your concerns being primarily about the Muslim condoned and even promoted invasion of the western world. My concerns are even more basic than that. My concerns deal with truth, no matter how unpleasant that truth may be. We can learn from our mistakes as long as we know what they are. I have yet to see where true progress is made on a foundation of lies.

ZionistYoungster said...

Talking of logical fallacies, Ethnocentrist... one of the basic rules of logical persuasion is that the burden of proof is on the positive claimant. Possibilities open the way to research, but they don't constitute proof, otherwise the 9/11 Troof ("9/11 was an inside job!") crowd would be getting instant credit instead of being asked to back up their theories. Worst is when people act upon unbacked conspiracy theories. I'm not into thought-policing; let people dream up any hare-brained hypothesis they so desire; but if they intend to act on their thoughts, such that others are influenced by that, then evidence is only a fair demand.

My concern about Islamic imperialism overlaps with the concern for truth, because the threat of Islamic imperialism happens to be very amenable to demonstration (see my comment above, about it being displayed in plain sight). That's why I care less about historical events, and even less about allegations of plots hatched in the dark and of shadowy organizations, which is what Walt and Mearsheimer's theory amounts to.

Ethnocentrist said...

I never said "possibilities" constitute proof. I said, given your Muslim example of their yelling to all who will listen what their intentions are does not, in and of itself preclude the fact that "conspiracies" do exist and may in fact be true. That was your fallacy, claiming that Muslims are brazen in their intent, therefore secret Jewish conspiracies are not true when in reality, they both can be true.

Second, the authors of the Israel Lobby have had their Chicago presentation of their book cancelled. I'm sure it has nothing to do with behind the scenes arm twisting by the Lobby.

Thirdly, the AIPAC is not anywhere near secretive nor shadowy. It is one of the strongest lobbies in Washington and it has been shown to have been complicit, if not the outright orchestrator in very anti-American activities for the benefit of Israel. These aren't secrets. They are facts and that is only one such organization which yields tremendous power over the US citizenry via US law makers for the sole benefit of a foreign nation.

I take it, from your description of the paper, that you did not read it.

The Dread Pirate Gryphon said...

I'm not a regular commenter, but I am a regular reader, and I'm quite disappointed to see this site deteriorating into a forum for the worst kind of self-important bigotry that seems to creep up on every decent corner of the Internet after a while.

Ignorance on the scale of that evinced by MI and Ethnocentrist should be shouted down at every opportunity. I'm not interested in hearing the anti-Semitic side of every argument. If Dymphna and the Baron can't keep order in their own house, I for one see no reason to continue to read their worthwhile posts. The aggravation far outweighs the benefits.

Ethnocentrist said...

Given the fact that I am so "ignorant"; would Dread be so kind and detail the "ignorance" he sees in my comments above.

The Dread Pirate Gryphon said...

Ethno:

No, thanks. You seem to have missed the point of my post.

I've spent countless hours engaging with your ilk. It serves no purpose. You may claim whatever fictitious rhetorical high ground you wish. I have no interest in correcting you. On the face of it, judging you by your own words, you are incorrigible.

My post was directed at Dymphna. She's under no obligation to allow you and whatshisname to spew, and I'm simply disappointed that she does. I'd like to continue reading her blog, but I don't wish to if I also have to avert my eyes from your bigoted filth.

Archonix said...

The Dread Pirate Gryphon:

You could always ignore the comments. :)

I should take my own advice now and then, especially when I was sparring with zerosumgame...

Baron Bodissey said...

Gryphon is right. This has all gotten rather pointless, IMHO.

Dymphna agrees, and has asked me to close the comments on this thread.