Tuesday, December 04, 2007

That Fascist Iron Cross

Alexis, a reader and commenter both here and at the Belmont Club, has composed a series of “Questions for Charles Johnson”. Below is the first group:

If Charles Johnson wishes to become recognized as the leader of any broad alliance of counter-jihad forces, he needs to answer the following question:

Should someone who makes an accusation be willing to be judged according to the same standards to which he judges others?

Lizardoid Iron Cross

Lizardoid Iron CrossThis is not a minor question. Charles Johnson relies upon leftist sources claiming to show Vlaams Belang supporters wearing neo-Nazi paraphernalia. Yet, if one inspects the following photos included here, Charles Johnson's supporters would appear to be guilty of wearing neo-Nazi paraphernalia.

Please note the Iron Cross underneath the “LGF Minion” insignia. According to the Anti-Defamation League and the Knights Hospitaller, the Iron Cross is used as neo-Nazi insignia.

These photos were found at leftist web sites known to be hostile to Little Green Footballs.*

Lest there be any doubt about the use of the Iron Cross in neo-Nazi demonstrations, below are two photos of a neo-Nazi demonstration in Berlin. (Each photo was resized. The originals can be found here and here.)

So, is Charles Johnson prepared to distance himself from men wearing the Iron Cross as part of their “LGF Minion” outfits, whomever they are? Are the lizards at Little Green Footballs prepared to denounce Nazis within their own midst?

I’m not holding my breath.

Real Neo-Nazis
These are very good questions.

Remember last night, when I posted about Odin’s Cross, also known as a Celtic Cross? According to the Anti-Defamation League:

“No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol.”

It’s important to remember that the ADL is a very, very liberal organization. And, despite being a bastion of politically correct Multiculturalism, it gives the Celtic Cross at least a partial pass.

So how does the same organization feel about the Iron Cross? Here’s the ADL’s database entry on that particular symbol:
- - - - - - - - -



Symbol Type Neo-Nazi Symbol
Also Known As N/A
Traditional Use/Origins The Iron Cross (without the swastika) was a medal that originated during the Napoleonic Wars and became one of the world’s most easily recognized military decorations.
Hate Group/Extremist Organization  Neo-Nazis
Extremist Meaning or Representation  Demonstrates a belief in National Socialism
Background/History Adolph Hitler renewed use of the Iron Cross in 1939 and superimposed the Nazi swastika in its center. Following the fall of the Third Reich, the symbol became strictly prohibited in post-war Germany. Today, the symbol is often displayed by neo-Nazi groups, especially as jewelry (e.g., pendants). The Iron Cross without the swastika is also frequently used as a hate symbol in the same manner as the Nazi-era Iron Cross. It is sometimes used for shock effect as it conjures up images of Nazi Germany and its military without being explicitly Nazi itself. In this guise, it is often displayed on clothing and accessories.

Hmm… No exceptions allowed for the Iron Cross.

So, if we use the LGF Standard of Symbol Analysis, plus guilt by association, there’s only one possible conclusion to be drawn about Little Green Footballs:

NAZI! NAZI! NAZI!

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

Seriously, folks…

One of the big problems with this whole stupid argument is the assumption that we know what any given symbol means in any particular photograph.

Someone finds photo of a Vlaams Belang member in which a Celtic Cross can be seen.

Conclusion: He’s a neo-Nazi.

Someone finds photo of a lizardoid wearing an Iron Cross patch on his jacket.

Conclusion: He’s NOT a neo-Nazi.

How do we know that? Remember, according to the ADL, no other meaning can be ascribed to the Iron Cross except that it is a Nazi symbol.

Why, presumably, because the lizardoid tells us so.

“I’m not a neo-Nazi,” he says.

OK, so we believe him.

But wait a minute…

Filip Dewinter says he’s not a neo-Nazi, too. Does that mean he’s not a neo-Nazi?

No it doesn’t. Why?

Because we know he’s lying.

And how do we know?

We know because we know because we know because we know.

We know because we’re the Guardians of PC Truth. We’re the Neighborhood Watch for Multicultiville.

We’re the Supermen of the Age of Aquarius who can look inside people with our special R-Ray glasses and see the SIN OF RACISM in the hearts of others.

That’s how we know that the lizardoid is not a neo-Nazi, and that Filip Dewinter is.

Q.E.D.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

The point of all this rigmarole is this: Let’s apply the same standards to everyone.

If we do, we have two choices:

1. Vlaams Belang and Little Green Footballs are both neo-Nazis, or
2. Neither of them is.

I vote for #2.

But then again, that may be way too commonsensical for a lot of people.


* The source for the first lizardoid Iron Cross photo can be found here in reference to this article on a leftist web site. The source for the last lizardoid Iron Cross photo can be found here. The middle image was created by cropping the image found at Indymedia.

43 comments:

Kafir Canada said...

I think, beyond that one shouldn't rely on guilt-by-association, this really goes to show that ADL is not dependable for determining what is a neo-Nazi symbol or not. I mean this such as when one cosiders that the iron cross is still used by the German military today. Does anyone think the current German military is still a Nazi organisation? Might make a good basis for a Tom Clancy novel or something like that, but not much else.

Sodra Djavul said...

And don't forget, Baron. Even though the Vlaams Belang and Dewinter actively oppose even keeping their current Muslim immigrants within their borders, according to LGF groupthink...

"They're practicing taqiyya."

Yes. Jihadist terminology being applied to the most anti-jihadist political group in Western civilization.

The more this goes on, the more I see the infiltration of leftist ideology at LGF.

Left is right. Right is wrong. Nationalism is racism. And appreciation of your heritage is fascist.

It was right what you and Dymphna did, despite the constant attacks.

Because LGF is poison.

- Sodra

Witch-king of Angmar said...

Baron, you said it. Imam al-Charles(peace be upon him) and his followers proclaimed themselves above all standards upon which they judge others. They are never wrong or misguided or mistaken and their actions and motives are nevr to be questioned. They took this kind of behaviour straight outof the pages of the Koran.

Anonymous said...

The argument you're presenting here is really a "stretch," to be honest. In two different ways.

First of all, there's a grand total of one jacket out there with an LGF logo on it and also an Iron Cross. It's being worn by two different people in the two photos, but it's same jacket each time, if you look. One. And from the looks of it, that's the LGF commenter "Iron Fist," recognizable by his shaved head, who I believe made the LGF patch to begin with, and who is pretty notorious for being just about the most extreme commenter left at LGF. Charles Johnson has publicly admonished him several times over the years, and this certainly isn't the only time that Iron Fist has sort of caused some embarrassment for the LGF reputation.

Be that as it may, we're talking about one guy here, a guy already acknowledged by Charles Johnson as somewhat of an embarrassment. Compare that one guy with the dozens of photos and images of hundreds of right-wing European party members displaying equally "problematic" symbols, usually in groups, or in official party publications or banners or whatever. It's no real comparison.

Every blog has all sorts of eccentric and often unwanted hangers-on that the blog owner did not choose nor give the stamp of approval to, so you can hardly blame Charles Johnson for the existence of one guy who reads his blog who also owns a jacket with an Iron Cross on it (which is also used by biker gangs, by the way, and which is undoubtedly the context it's being used in here). Having one embarrassing fan is completely different from having the core of your party membership being entirely the kind of people comfortable displaying those symbols.

You're just playing a game of "gotcha!" here that obfuscates the real issue.

Secondly, even if Iron Fist was a neo-Nazi, and even if Charles Johnson failed to completely repudiate him, that in no way disproves any of the claims about the connection between the symbols and extreme-right-wing or racist groups. If you were on trial for theft, and your only defense was, "Well, that other guy is a thief too," you've pretty much lost the case, because saying "You're guilty too!" doesn't magically render you innocent. In fact, it only serves to further indicate your guilt.

Get a grip. European political parties don't require the support of an American blog in order to exist. So, a blogger in the US doesn't like a political party in Belgium. So what? If you disagree with him, then just ignore him and build your own coalition. If he's wrong, and thereby irrelevant, then ignore him as you would any troll and let him twiddle away in his irrelevant little universe. But by constantly bringing the focus back to LGF, you're kind of giving the impression that you do very much want his approval, and are feeling spurned or hurt.

To "win" this argument, all you have to do is turn your back on LGF and stop worrying about their opinions. Go about doing what you think needs to be done in Europe, regardless of what a lone misguided blogger thinks.

pela68 said...

Well, the Christian cross is being used by white supremacists as a symbol too. Does that mean that all Christians are white supremacists?

Or the Thors Hammer, likewise used by white supremacists in the Nordic countries. Does it mean that al the Norse Gods believers (that still exists here) are nazis?

Me thinks not!

A "Celtic" cross- otherwise known as a "Sun Cross" is a SYMBOL. I own one myself. It was made in Ethiopia at the turn (of the last) century. Does THAT make the Ethiopians nazis? Does that make ME a nazi?

I think not!

So what we have here in all essentials is Charles building a case of guilt by association, and that is also what The Baron is trying to bring forward with his post.

Finnish fighter pilots had swastikas painted on their aircrafts during WW2. They fought against the Russians. Does that make the Finns nazis?

Well no frikking no! They were mearly trying to defend landareas from being annected by the Russian forces.

Do you ever rise your national flag (and shame on you if you don't), then THAT would be a symbolic action of nationalism- which can be seen as national socialistic= nazism.

Guilt by association is a double edged sword. And even though I respect Charles for all the good work he has done- he's the one who has come out "short handed" in this playground debate.

Archonix said...

PPP, in an ideal world I'd agree with you. However, the problem faced here is that LGF are refusing to acknowledge that they've been proven wrong, and further are continuing to spew out the same lies - which is what they are now - about this issue. As was pointed out in a previous post, it leaves a record of note, and if it isn't countered with other information then at some point people will only find that record and no other, and be swayed to false conclusions.

Another issue is that they're being hypocrites. I took a peek over there last night and several posters were making great pains to point out that the cross on this particular jacket is a "Maltese Cross", which has a long history external to the use of the similar iron cross as used by nazi germany. This is exactly the same argument used in regard to the Odin's cross, an argument they have dismissed with their usual "humour" and glib commentary when applied to various solar crosses. One way for me and another for thee seems to be the rule over there now.

In the face of that there's no choice but to answer.

Baron Bodissey said...

Q --

Every argument you make, with "Vlaams Belang" substituted for "LGF" and so on, applies exactly in the opposite direction.

You make my point for me: the same standards don't hold for LGF and everybody else. The assertions of CJ and the lizardoids are believable on the face of it, while everything a VB person says is assumed to be a lie. Guilt is determined by a photograph when VB is involved, but not when LGF is involved. VB as a party is condemned by association for the alleged activities of its members, whereas LGF remains pure as the driven snow despite the behavior of some of its members.

I could go on and on, but I'm increasingly convinced that engaging in rational argument with an Orthodox Lizardoid is like discussing Shakespeare with a duck.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

I would just like to know what kind of ass kissing sheep would wear a LGF (or any blog) jacket. All you have to do to be a lizard is never offend CJ.
That includes:
Don't argue with him
Stroke him on your every third post.
If he dissagrees with someone, go click the "-" sign by that persons post and then post to insult him.
Never, ever click the "+" sign by a post that you think CJ doesn't like.

I would love to know the loging of the skinheaded sheep wearing that jacket. Wait---CJ associating with a white man with a shaved head??? He must be a skinhead, because skinheads do that. CJ must agree with skinheads, because he affiliates with a skinhead.

Nyog of the Bog said...

Touché Baron, Touché!

Anonymous said...

whoah

just back from the range
and what did I see
through the lenses of MY scope?
a celtic cross
the cross hairs and
a circle

my, my,

doesn't that leave
a whole lot of room
for interpretation

sturm/ruger a nazi company
or is it just me?

or is the only thing that counts
that I put 30
in a circle
the size of my hand

KM said...

Baron

I would like to draw your attention to the following links of VB party members.

http://groups.msn.com/pietervanboxel/homepage

http://www.vlaamsbelanglokeren.be/temp_verkieAisha1.html

I spefically asked CJ on the following thread if he would have the intellectual honesty to post those links.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28132_Belgium_Coalition_Collapses#comments

No surprise that he didnt, even though he was participating in the thread.
The debate that followed with the ankle biting Lizards is also a classic example of LGF cacophany and group think.

Kafir_Kelbeh said...

Why, I own a Ruger Mark III with a pencil-neck barrel...that must make me a neo-Nazi. Or is Ruger a Nazi company for producing? Hmmm...

That's how dumb these symbolic arguments are. Such dufi...

Archonix said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sarah said...

I can personally vouch for two of the people in those pictures, that they are most certainly not nazis. Unfortunately the same doesn't hold true for DeWinter, no matter who vouches for him - the Lizards know better!

MJ said...

I hate to defend Charles but there is a bit of a difference between a leading politician who's party has very murky origins and some numbskulls who happen to post on a blog.

Pointing out that a politician may have a neo-Nazi symbol on his office bookshelf is a little more worrying, no?

Archonix said...

Unfortunately the same doesn't hold true for DeWinter, no matter who vouches for him

And you've decided this based on, what, a few symbols? That already have other, deeper meanings for the Flemish?

And if that argument is turned around to "accuse" your lizard friend of being a nazi, why, you can vouch for him, and fair dos. The guy isn't a nazi and nobody was seriously saying otherwise. The problem is, you've already convicted DeWinter of being a nazi, so why bother listening to any opposing evidence? Even when that evidence greatly outweighs anything you've brought against him? Oh but he must be a nazi. he's a european white male who expresses nationalist ideals.

My god! They're everywhere! RUN!

RISE_UP said...

qq: You said:
who is pretty notorious for being just about the most extreme commenter left at LGF. Charles Johnson has publicly admonished him several times over the years, and this certainly isn't the only time that Iron Fist has sort of caused some embarrassment for the LGF reputation.

Well,now isn't that just like a lgf lizard? Throw Ironfist to the dogs. Sacrifice him and maybe it will go away. And...he was all right up til now wasn't he? You hyprocrites amaze me.

Sarah said...

Two words:

Reading Comprehension

EtNorskTroll said...

Again with the insults, Witch-King?

There isn't enough strife, violence and hatred in the world for you that you must insult Charles with the 'peace be upon him'....?

This sounds childish.

What if Charles were to change his position tomorrow? Would you want to be found insulting an otherwise ally in the fight against the Jihadis?

I wish you'd give a little more thought to what you're posting before you hit the 'SUBMIT' button.

The Jihadi's mean business. Hating on people who are otherwise fighting with us helps nobody except "Abdullah the Jihadist."

Think about it....

~Norsk Troll

Anonymous said...

"baron bodissey said...

...Guilt is determined by a photograph when VB is involved, but not when LGF is involved. VB as a party is condemned by association for the alleged activities of its members, whereas LGF remains pure as the driven snow despite the behavior of some of its members."

Baron, it's a matter of degree. Weigh the evidence. On one side, we have ONE person with a single jacket shown in just TWO photos that contains one controversial symbol. On the other side there are probably HUNDREDS of photos showing in total THOUSANDS of people carrying signs and marching under banners and distributing publications and so on containing many controversial symbols. The two sets of evidence are unequal. If there were just one photograph (as you imply with your statement "a photograph") of a single VB member displaying one controversial symbol, then the evidence would be equal. Or if there were dozens of photographs of hundreds of LGF readers at a convention displaying many controversial symbols, then the evidence would be equal. But that's not the way it is. Juries convict on "a preponderance of evidence," and the jury of public opinion is just the same.

I've heard all the arguments, and I've seen all the evidence, and I have sympathy for the plight of Europeans, I really do, in that any attempt to stop the erosion of European culture is inevitably construed as "racist" by the left-dominated mainstream European media. I understand that. I also understand that European culture is something worth preserving. And that if nothing is done, it may very well indeed be overthrown.

However, although there may be many many non-racist, well-meaning people trying to preserve Europe, yourself included, mixed in amongst them are people who really do appear to be truly racist. And that becomes a problem of public perceptions, because then the accusations thrown by the MSM at right-wing European parties are to some small extent true. And once even a single bit of evidence along these lines is broadcast, the entire movement is dismissed as a bunch of nazis. And then all your effort will be for naught.

I'm not saying this is fair, but it's harsh reality. And unfortunately, the argument with LGF is doing nothing to help your cause, and even if you were utterly triumphant in your argument with LGF, you'd still be in the exact same pickle. The general public will have the exact same (mis)perception as it did before.

So, you're fighting the wrong battle. The left is laughing at us as we argue over the minutiae of what counts as racist and what counts as nationalist and so on, when meanwhile, we've ALL already been condemned by the mainstream left as outright fascists, and that includes LGF, GoV, VB, and anyone else in this dispute. Our arguments are inconsequential in the big picture.

I have no magic answer to solve all of your problems, but wasting your energy attacking LGF and Charles Johnson will get you nowhere, even if you "win" the argument and everybody gets back together in a conciliatory group hug. The people who want to save Europe need to take many steps that have nothing to do with trading jibes with a rival blogger. If you want advice, I could give it, but I'll hold off unless you request it.

It won't be easy. Politics never is.

Baron Bodissey said...

qqq –

First of all, before we get down to business, Charles Johnson is not a “rival blogger”. He and GoV are not in the same league, and I don’t aspire to play in that league. I know my place.

This is a small opinion blog, occupying a minor niche, and not a news aggregating blog. We serve a small number of readers who happen to like this kind of thing.

There is no rivalry, at least not from my point of view.

Consider a couple of telling phrases from your arguments:

Juries convict on "a preponderance of evidence"

Exactly.

The preponderance of the evidence includes much more than photos which contain symbols, especially since the existence of variant meanings for those symbols is acknowledged even by liberals.

The preponderance of evidence would also include all those things that you and Charles Johnson have chosen to ignore:

1. Public statements by leaders of VB;
2. Published writings by the leaders of VB;
3. Public policies enacted by VB via legislation and parliamentary initiatives;
4. The widespread support VB receives from the Orthodox Jewish community in Flanders;
5. The support of VB by fully-integrated members of the non-white immigrant community; and
6. The non-token membership of Dutch-speaking “brown” people in VB.

This particular “preponderance” has no weight for you at all. You, I assume, consider such things to be of no consequence, or to be lies, or in some other way easily dismissible.

You consider that these things are outweighed entirely by photographs.

And you call this “weighing the evidence”??

people who really do appear to be truly racist

Now we come to the heart of the matter. People who appear to be truly racist.

To who to they appear such? To themselves? To their countrymen?

To European left-wingers, maybe? This is an argument?

Or, perhaps they appear racist simply to you, and to a host of other Americans who remain deeply ignorant of the language and culture of Flanders, Belgium, and Europe in general?

From across the Atlantic, through the superior faculty of discernment conferred upon you by a Higher Power, you can see into their hearts and determine them to be racists, right?

When you refer to the opinion of the “general public”, which public is that? The American public? Outside of the tiny subset of LGF commenters and their host, Americans know nothing of these things, nor do they care.

Public opinion in Europe strongly supports positions like those of Vlaams Belang, and is confirmed by polls.

But I suppose in your book that only proves that the majority of Europeans are RACISTS.

Once again, attempting reasoned discourse in these circumstances is like debating Aristotelian metaphysics with an iguana.

Entertaining to watch.

Lacking in significant results.

Dymphna said...

The law itself describes its standards as those necessary to convince "the reasonable man."

The attacks on VB and SD have been neither reasoned nor reasonable. They are put out by the European Left, who are determined to shove thru a Constitution --oops, sorry, it's been reduced to a "Treaty" since they couldn't get the hoi polloi to sign on --

Europe is going down a dark hole of dhimmitude and there is no way for the average citizen to fight it without being demonized.

Raving over photos simply doesn't carry any gravitas except for those who need to be convinced of someone else's perfidy.

Dymphna said...

BTW, how come no one is raising a stink about those racist Japanese?

Try immigrating there if you want a fun time and second class membership.

Thanos said...

Well then I propose a couple of simple tests to back up your convictions.

You've argued extensively here that the Odin's cross / Sun Cross flavor of the Celtic Cross means nothing - it is just a symbol of Flemish Nationalism.
So, please put an Odin's Cross flag on your car for a month or so if you think it means naught. Wear an Odin's cross tee-shirt to church this Sunday.

Oh, you say it means something here, but something different in Flanders? Fine - there are two big gatherings for Flemish Nationalism and Solidarity every year. One is the Ijzerwake at Diksmuide, the other is Zangerfeest. Both have official webpages; and both have contact email pages.
Indeed, the foreign language pages for Ijzerwake specifically state that only flags for Flemish Nationalism are allowed. Why don't you email and see if you can bring an Odin's Cross flag next August? Contact Zangerfeest and see if you can bring one.

Anonymous said...

Well, you can't say I didn't try.

This will be my last comment here. I attempted to be reasonable and non-abusive, even if we differed on various points of contention, but there remains an air of hostility in your responses that I just don't understand the reason for. After I'm gone, you can say whatever you want about me.

To address a few points in your reply:

You say "Public opinion in Europe strongly supports positions like those of Vlaams Belang, and is confirmed by polls." If that is the case, then why are there no VB-esque parties in power anywhere in Europe? Spain: A Socialist government. Italy: a semi-socialist government. France: center-right; England: center-left. Germany: center-right. And on and on. I won't list every country, but you know as well as I do that all or almost all countries have governments to the left of people like Merkel and Sarkozy, who are as far right as current Euro governments go.

Which leads to only two conclusions: either the polls you cite are wrong, and VB-esque parties do not have nearly the widespread support that you claim; or, worse, that most people do support the same positions that VB-esque parties support, but there then must be something about the specifics of each party and/or their leaders that prevents people from voting for them. Perhaps voters find something distasteful about the leadership or the pasts of these parties that prevents the majority of people from joining them.

Which suggests exactly what I was going to recommend: That people in the various countries of Europe need to start forming new parties that don't have any of the baggage attached to many of the existing parties. Both the BNP in England and Le Pen in France are too burdened with fascist associations in the past to ever give themselves a complete makeover. And the same to perhaps a somewhat lesser degree applied to Vlaams Belang, which most assume is simply a new name and a new facade for Vlaams Blok, which was regarded at the time as being too extremist to ever be a viable mainstream party. If political activists in England and France and Belgium (and all the other countries with tainted far-right parties) simply formed fresh new parties with new names, new faces, new leaders that espoused many of the same anti-immigration policies as these older parties, then the voters would flock to them, because they would not be embarrassed to vote for the new party. I'm thinking of what Pim Fortuyn did in the Netherlands before he was killed: his new "orientation" resonated with the populace because it was not a leftover from a previous political era.

And as for what I meant when I mentioned the "mainstream left" in Europe pre-emptively dismissing as neo-fascist all the VB-esque parties, I say:

What political orientation does the EU, the overarching European government, have? Socialist.
What political orientation does the vast majority of top-level news media in Europe have? Far left.
What political orientation do all the "media elites" (i.e. filmmakers, writers, etc.) in Europe have? Far left.
Overall, if you were to combine all the national elections in Europe and categorize all the votes of Europeans for their own governments, what is the general overall orientation of the average voter? Centrist at best, and more like center-left.

Put these all together and what you end up with is a left-wing mainstream in Europe. Like it or not. And that's the reality you have to deal with.

On to another point: You fell right back into the trap of trying to convince me of VB's innocuousness. As I was trying to say, convincing me will do you no good. I don't control the political climate in Europe. Nor does LGF. The people of Europe who want to preserve whatever it is about Europe that you like need to sit down and develop a viable strategy that takes into account political and cultural realities. And I believe that would entail, first of all, creating fresh new parties with no ideological baggage; and elsewhere, where possible, supporting center-right candidates like Merkel and Sarkozy who do show some willingness to combat the serious immigration issue, and to press these leaders to enact policies that go in the right direction. And if that entails "throwing people to the wolves" (i.e. expelling overt extremists), then that's what needs to be done, difficult as it may be. For every far-right racist you expel, you'll gain two voters from the center.

But back to the beginning: I only made a comment here to challenge the non-productive attitude exhibited by the photo that this post is about, and also by the comment above, "BTW, how come no one is raising a stink about those racist Japanese?", both of which are a variation of the "tu quoque" fallacy of defending your position by accusing others of being equally culpable. Why can't you grasp that this form of argumentation only weakens your position?

I'll leave it at that. If you wish to mock or attack me at this point, feel free, as I won't be here to defend myself. I'm only trying to be helpful, so I do hope you cogitate about some of the points I've tried to make.

Good luck.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

In the middle 1980s during my liveaboard cruising days I was out hiking on the island of St. John in the U.S. Virgin Islands. NATO was conducting maneuvers in the northeastern Caribbean with naval and air force units. I heard a loud roar overhead and looked up to see a military aircraft fly over at an altitude of perhaps 500'. As it passed the crew waved to me and I observed the insignia on the tail fin to be an IRON CROSS. The aircraft was of the West German Air Force. Obviously unreconstructed National Socialists.

Baron Bodissey said...

qqq --

I acknowledge that your arguments are made in good faith.

Just two points:

1. The ruling parties in Europe do not reflect the will of the people because the deck is stacked against them. An illiberal system has developed over the last half-century, aided by the national governments but culminating in the EU, which makes it very, very difficult for anti-immigration parties to operate. The entrenched elites work against them through the government apparatus and the state media and every possible way.

Honestly, we've written about all this at great length many times; I can't recapitulate it all here.

It would have been good if you read some other posts here besides the LGF/Vlaams Belang ones. Believe it or not, there was a time (prior to October 19th) when we wrote about other things.

Fjordman's articles are a good place to start. There are plenty of them, and he knows what he's talking about.

2. "Start a new party".

This is virtually impossible to do in most European countries, if your ideology is not considered acceptable, since it is illegal for parties to fund campaigns except via the state. The hand on the spigot of state money tends to induce conformity of thought.

Once again, read our earlier posts.

Conservative Swede said...

qqq,

Starting a new party...

Read about the Swedish experience here, with more background here.

ΛΕΟΝΙΔΑΣ said...

Thank you qqq (whoever you are) for going to the trouble of establishing a google account for the sole purpose of treating us to your overweening arrogance. Now if only the Democrats and Republicans will just disband themselves and reform into parties acceptable to the European far left the current anti Americanism there will miraculously disappear.

islam o' phobe said...

The accepted European commenters on LGF have names like AshamedToBeDutch, FormerBelgium and EtNorskTroll.

That is, European commenters on LGF have a de-facto dhimmi status. They accept American superiority in all areas (moral, cultural, political) and bear the eternal shame of WWI and WWII.

I know this sounds unfair to EtNorskTroll who is very thoughtful at times but his alias is implicitly self-deprecating. How long would he last as ProudNorsk decrypting the various absurbities of the LGF crowd?

Conservative Swede said...

qqq,

If political activists ... simply formed fresh new parties with new names, new faces, new leaders that espoused many of the same anti-immigration policies as these older parties, then the voters would flock to them, because they would not be embarrassed to vote for the new party. I'm thinking of what Pim Fortuyn did in the Netherlands before he was killed: his new "orientation" resonated with the populace because it was not a leftover from a previous political era.

Did you notice the part where Pim Fortuyn got killed? Why don't they simply just start parties like Pim Fortuyn? Remember, he got killed. This is the political climate in Europe. We are in a situation of cold civil war. There are numerous ways of crushing new parties, by the establishment in symbiosis with leftist stormtroopers. The only anti-establishment parties that survived in this climate were the most stubbornly nationalist ones, many of which had opinions back in the '90s I definitely did not agree with, but many of them having changed today.

These are the pieces we have to play with, the game is rigged by the elites. Do you prefer we do nothing and just wait for the civil war to turn hot?

"Just staring a new party..." like if we had democracy... You need to read up some on Europe... Push it further, like they did with the Serbs, and this is the situation when a Milosevic is bound to appear. And I for one would like to avoid that.

pela68 said...

Thanos

It's funny that you mnention this. Let's do an experiment. You fly over to... Let's say Saudi Arabia wearing a tee with a Christian cross on it. Good luck!

I on the other hand have no problem at all with people sporting the Celtic/Odin/Sun cross.

These are ancient Europeian symbols of faith and are considered as lucky charms, and that also goes for other symbols like the Hammer of Thor and likewise.

Some national socialists has take up these symbols and therefore has tarnished their meaning. I've had my Ethiopian made suncross in a drawer for decades, but now I'm defenetly picking it out and will display it at my desk!

The symbols themselves doesn't mean that you are leaning towards either this or either that!

I have a friend that's a priest that have a tatoo of the celtic cross. I asked him about it and he said to me that: "For me it is a religous symbol. Even if I'm a protestant- it has no other meaning to me than respect for God, the love for god...

I don't care much for religion, and what I believe in is as far from racists believings as you can come, that is not why I have a celtic cross- I just think it's neat. (And it's one of the few thing I have left from my mothers belongings).

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

Could someone from Europe write up a nice, sweet explanation of the various systems of public financing for parties/elections? I ask because we have some politicians here trying to do that in the name of "Campaign Finance Reform".

I doubt that 2% of Americans are aware of the true threat that public financing poses to a free nation. Conswede's description of the Swedish system scares the poop out of me, and makes me want to buy another 1,000 rounds of .308, just in case it happens here.

1389 said...

To see what CJ and the lizardoids are really like, read this article and the accompanying comments. CJ never was a member of the counterjihad, much less a leader of it. He is a greedy blogger who uses terrorism stories to get page views, while serving the interests of the jihadists. He and his followers must be, and are being, discredited with the utmost thoroughness and finality.

1389 said...

Conservative Swede, Milosevic was no Serb nationalist, but a hapless appeaser who was repeatedly hoodwinked by the US and NATO, and ultimately disposed of. See Emperor's Clothes for background. That site has the whole history of MSM pro-jihadist taqiyya!

BTW, I have seen no evidence that any of these LGF stooges are arguing in good faith. Any leftist who argues in good faith will find no alternative but to abandon leftism.

Conservative Swede said...

1389,

That link of yours doesn't work.

"this article and the accompanying comments"

Conservative Swede said...

1389,

Regarding Milosevic: I have to admit that I wouldn't be the least surprised if it was exactly so. However, I know to little to form my own opinion.

1389 said...

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/12/wrong-on-serbia.html

1389 said...

WRONG ON SERBIA: in the comments the pro-jihadist lizardroids reveal, among other things, their own rabid racism against Serbs.

THEY, and only they, are the real racists, as shown by their own words. No need to rely on guilt by association or guesswork about symbols to prove it!

By spreading this libelous enemy propaganda, they are knowingly and deliberately giving a tremendous amount of aid and comfort to our AQ-affiliated jihadist enemies in the Balkans.

Last I checked, treason is a capital offense. Wien things deteriorate further, enforcement of applicable laws will no doubt resume.

Rope, tree, US Constitutional definition of treason...

Wimbledon Womble said...

Charles de Johnson is a pea-brain. Enough of him. Let's move on. He does not exist. Ignore him. Ignore his volleys and do not counter. It's a waste of time. It is counter-productive.

Moreover, he feeds off of this. Ignoring him would be much harder on his psyche than talking about him. This is a man who needs attention: sycophant lizardoids to feed his little ego or antagonists he can oppose and thus feel important. Ignoring him would deflate his ego. So why not ignore this irrelevant person?

Ginro said...

I agree with Wimbledon Womble, just leave it now. Why let him control your emotions in this way? You're in charge of them, not him.

On another topic, is there something wrong with TTLB? I've been looking at various sites listed there the past few days and, whilst everyone else's stats are up and running, LGF's (that's Little Green Footballs, not Lesbian and Gay Foundation but an easy enough mistake to make when you only type the initials into Google, lol) stats appear to have been stuck on 103,836 for over a month now.

RISE_UP said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Baron Bodissey said...

RISE_UP --

Sorry, that one violated the language rule here.

You can re-paste it if you want, adding asterisks where required, but I'm not sure it's worth the bother.