Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Faith of Our Fathers

An article in The Jerusalem Post sums up the future of Christianity in the West Bank and Gaza. It amounts to extinction by 2022 or so:

The ever-dwindling Christian communities living in Palestinian-run territories in the West Bank and Gaza are likely to dissipate completely within the next 15 years as a result of increasing Muslim persecution and maltreatment, an Israeli scholar said Monday.

The systematic persecution of Christian Arabs living in Palestinian areas is being met with nearly total silence by the international community, human rights activists, the media and NGOs,” said Justus Reid Weiner, an international human rights lawyer in an address at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, where he serves as a scholar in residence. [my emphasis — D]

[…]

“Christian leaders are being forced to abandon their followers to the forces of radical Islam,” Weiner said.

Palestinian Christians have decreased from fifteen percent fifty years ago, to about 1.5 per cent today. If they were spotted owls, there would be a huge outcry about their decimation. But Christians? Eh….
- - - - - - - - -
Meanwhile, they’re leaving Bethlehem, too — especially since it came under full Palestinian control …thank you, Oslo Accords. Of the 30,000 people in the town less than twenty per cent are Christian. They used to be in the majority, but that’s what happens in Palestine when the Jews cede control to the terrorists.

There are a few other Christians — 3,000 mostly Greek Orthodox — left in the Gaza Strip.

And who is to blame for this exodus? Why Israel, of course.

The town of 30,000 is now less than 20% Christian, after decades when Christians were the majority. Elsewhere in the Palestinian territories, only about 3,000 Christians, mostly Greek Orthodox, live in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, out of a strongly conservative Muslim population of 1.4 million.

… Weiner pointedly downplayed the effects that Israeli security measures, such as the security barrier being built between Israel and the West Bank, have had on the Christian Arabs living in the West Bank.

The barrier, which is especially conspicuous at the entrance to Bethlehem where it is a concrete wall, is an issue which many Palestinian Christian clerics have pointed to, along with the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as a central cause of Christian emigration.

Weiner argued there was a “180 degree difference” between the public statements coming out of the mainstream Christian leadership in the Holy Land — who “sing the PA’s tune” and blame Israel for all the Christian Arabs’ ills — and people’s experience on the ground.

“The truth is beginning to come out,” he said. “The question is what is being done with the truth.”

His comments come just months after a prominent Christian activist, Rami Khader Ayyad, 32, was killed in Gaza.

“For too long the plight of Christian Arabs has been put on the back-burner or ignored altogether,” said Rev. Malcolm Hedding, executive director of the International Christian Embassy, a Jerusalem-based evangelical organization.

The Evangelical leader, who has drawn the wrath of Catholic leaders in the Holy Land for his strong support for Israel, said that “power politics” has prevented the major Christian leaders in the Holy Land from speaking out on this issue.

“There is a one-sided debate in which Israel is responsible for everything,” he said. “The Christian world needs to stand up and speak out about this.”

The “Christian world” is sadly remiss in its treatment of its fellow Christians in Palestine. It’s just one more chance to bash the Jews, and mainstream Christianity never misses the opportunity.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Christians — the ones still alive — are voting with their feet. Soon they will all be gone and the hymn “O Little Town of Bethlehem” will become, like the Christians who used to live there, just another anachronism.

This silence is a crime and a disgrace for the Christian church world-wide.


Hat tip: Daniel

63 comments:

Holger said...

No one is to blame but we in the West who allow it to happen. A dog is a dog, a muslim a muslim. They do what they do and you can't expect anything else. But we in the west sell them out by pussy footing around Islam.

VinceP1974 said...

“The truth is beginning to come out,” he said. “The question is what is being done with the truth.”

====

Like they didn't know before...such frauds these Palestinian Christians are... they were all too willing to allow the Israelis to be brutalized all these years but now that the tables were turned on them suddenly the truth matters... it's all so self-serving.

Darrin Hodges said...

This bloke pretty much somes up the Christian response - http://www.fatherdave.org/friends/

Scroll down the page and look at his selection of video's and articles and which way they lean.

His Social Justice page: http://www.fatherdave.org/article/search.php?cid=11

and includes a touching tribute to Yassar Arafat.

islam o' phobe said...

No one is to blame but we in the West who allow it to happen. A dog is a dog, a muslim a muslim. They do what they do and you can't expect anything else. But we in the west sell them out by pussy footing around Islam.

The Muslim Arabs are to blame. This whole idea that Israel must abide by treaties and their Muslim foes can get away with anything because its what they'd do anyway is exactly the kind of passive attitude that lets them get away with anything and everything.

The secondary blame goes to Christians and Westerns worldwide for their moral failure which is I find really depressing.

islam o' phobe said...

"Westerns" should read "Western leaders". Should have read that over before posting. Ho hum.

Ginro said...

It is as if the world has gone completely mad, black is white, right is wrong, good is bad etc. Sometimes I find it hard to get my head around all this as it seems totally insane.

There are Christian organizations trying, but unfortunately you get the impression that it's like swimming against the tide. But one example is here:

Anglican Friends of Israel

KGS said...

I know professor J.R. Weiner, having spoken with him earlier this year about the Finnish Lutheran Church's attitude towards its co-religionists in the PA areas.

I have more on it here:
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2007/01/collusion-collaboration-and-betrayal.html

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

We can blame the atheists and liberal Jews who cheer on the demise of Christianity.

By liberal Jews I mean 90% of them.

Richard said...

This is the West's fault for we allow it to happen and are hell bent on giving these vermin a state.

Bush calls himself a Christian but hasnt lifted a finger to help oppressed Christians anywhere but loves to aid the oppressors of Christians

KGS said...

Hey Mr.smarterthanthou, why just mention Jews, why are you not including all the other liberals and their religious affiliations?

something seriously smells with your statement.

1389 said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou, if you make prejudiced remarks about Jews, it gives all of us a bad name.

On our own blog, that comment would not have been displayed.

We responded to a hate message from a Nazi.

Sodra Djavul said...

In order to hold a belief in a democratic form of government you must also hold the belief that the voting process dictates actual, real-world policies. In other words, voting has very real consequences.

So, I don't think anyone should shy away from stating what Mr. Smarterthanyou posted regarding voting patterns of Jewish Americans.

I don't think we should conflate political disagreements with prejudice. I disagree politically with Leftists of any stripe, and I think many find it insane that some of the most anti-Israeli voices out there, are, well...

- Sodra

spackle said...

And so will go Jerusalem if this madness continues.

1389 said...

Sure, you can find some atheists who are actively hostile toward Christians, but most of the atheists I have known tend to ignore religion. Similarly, if you look long enough, you can probably find some Jewish people who feel uncomfortable around anything to do with Christianity, but I have not found that attitude to be prevalent.

As far as demographics and voting patterns are concerned, if any large groups of people are voting for liberals, we have not done an adequate job of getting our message out.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

Imagine if the current legal and social attacks against Christianity all seemed to be headlined by lawyers named "Muhammed". Would you draw a connection?

I mentioned Jews because:
a) In the past few elections in the US, at or over 90% of Jews voted for Democrats, the party of Dhimmitude.
b) Every major anti-Christian lawsuit , every major anti-values lawsuit, and every major pro-Dhimmitude lawsuit seems to be headlined by a Jew or an overwhelmingly Jewish organization. To Wit: ACLU, ADL (none of the hate symbols on their page are commie symbols, wonder why, the lawyer for the flying Imams is a Jew who is also a top lawyer for the DNC, Micahel Newdow, who is trying to ban crosses, "In God We Trust", the Pledge of Allegence etc, he is a practicing Jew. Jewish faculty and parents are turning schools upside down with Christmas tree bans. A rabbi got the Christmas tree removed at SEATAC, but he backtracked after the outrage.

There is a liberal, secular Jewish attack on Christianity in the US. What you may not know is that most of these atheists are self-identified atheist or agnostic Jews. I never heard of an atheist Christian, but for some reason the cup runneth over with atheist Jews.

So, you would ban my comments for fear of me sounding Nazi (I'm not) and you or your blog being tarred with the same brush? Hmmm, headed down the LGF road with that attitude. Pretty steep slope, don't you think?

Baron Bodissey said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou --

Cool your jets. I'm not going to delete your comments; they are well within the rules of acceptable discourse as applied here at GoV.

Parts of what you say are worth considering, even if they are distasteful and run the risk of the dreaded "NAZI!" accusation.

Liberal secular Jews are over-represented in the most destructive leftist organizations. That's a fact.

But I think there's a relatively simple explanation for it.

Remember, Jews are also over-represented among mathematicians, nuclear physicists, historians, writers, movie directors, economists, business executives, etc.

What all these categories have in common are education and ambition, which Jews (for whatever reason) seem to possess in abundance.

Jews are better-educated than average, and are more likely to be intellectuals. And we all know the direction that intellectuals have moved towards ever since the days of Marx: The Left.

If you're an intellectual (especially in the Arts), you've got a 90% chance of being an active liberal. That's true of Jews or any other ethnic group.

I don't think we need to look for any more sinister reasons than this.

1389 said...

Mr Smarterthanyou, I woud never have banned you for that, but I would have blocked that one comment.

The people you mentioned need to be confronted as individuals. To lump them in with all Jews, or non-observant Jews, is apt to cause a lot of dissention.

ZionistYoungster said...

There's also the misconception--among Jews who haven't had an Orthodox upbringing, which is most of them today, including yours truly (was raised secular, got religion later)--that Judaism can be summed up as, "Making the world a better place", and then the gravitation toward Leftism is a natural.

And we can blame Leftists of all persuasions. And ostensible right-wingers who've been taken in by their assumptions, such as the current American President.

God bless.
ZY

jeremy said...

Well,
let's be brutally honest, those Christians mostly chose an Arab identity and an anti-Israeli stance, and have a lot of native anti-semitism too. One can argue that a millenia plus of dhimmitude molded this, but there are tons of Christian Palestinians in the west and how many of them spoke out?

jeremy said...

Smartypants has a good point and I am Jewish. I had a little religious upbringing but mainly superficial. But there was always this pervasive leftism in the background. Partly it had to due with the fact that the only parties that welcomed Jews in old Europe were either socialistic or the Communists. Jews often identify with the underdog or the minority and tend to see things in terms of bad majority oppressing valiant little people. All you have to do is look at the cheezy hypocrisy of some of the con theocons, who want to save the Nation for Jesus(like some Ark cracker preacher) or similiar twaddle like "America is a Christian Nation!", and you can see how that would upset us. But taking away creches in the park or a cross off of a town's seal isn't right either. Xmas never bothered me.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

I don't buy the "more Jews are intellectual" argument, although the more liberal professions do tend to require grad school (Law, Psychology, social work, art history...).

But while I would take any individual Jewish person as a person first, and any individual Muslim as a person first, I know that if you get 10 of either of them together, you have a group dynamic that says "Liberal anti-Christian" or "Barbaric anti-Christian".

Group dynamics are real, and you cannot solve problems involving large numbers and group dynamics if you refuse to recognize trends.

I think we all recognize the trend among muslims. We dare speak it's name (unless we attend an Ivy League school).

But when folks like me see the trend with Jews, it is wayyy too easy for the left to dump me in with neo-Nazis, and for the squeamish on the right to be afraid of associating with someone that the left dumps in with the neo-Nazis.

So we are back to where we began, with VB being slandered and put in the "Nazi" box, and squeamish moderates afraid to speak up for them, and willing to dump on them because they know they are being watched.

Not that I am any kind of Hero, it isn't like I post this under my real name, it would cost me my career, and keep me from ever running for office, which I may want to do.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

PS
The liberal Christian thing really has me confused. I knew a guy who was a minister, and was a big believer in "Liberation Theology". He was married for the third time, to a third black woman. All of them were at least 6" taller than him. He refused to admit that Carter failed at anything. He votes for Nader.
Couple that with the Dhimmis at the Church in Bethlehem, who let the Pali's wipe their butts on the curtains, and then still spoke against Israel, well, I cannot understand that. Profound cowardice and stupidity just doesn't catch all the loose ends.

jeremy said...

I'm starting to get tired of this smartypants rant stuff. I'm sure there are a few anti-Christian Jews in the US, but be real. You definition of anti-Christian is someone who isn't pro Christian. The Christians in the US are the freest, richests and most powerful ones in the world. To hear you whine about oppression like Al Sharpton is worse than Sharpton. At least he can make an honest claim about past oppression.
They didn't make your ancestors live in the ghetto, forbid them to own land or attacked them on holidays in the name of their savior. Jews don't sit around at night planning ways to stick it to Christians, nor do they want to burden you with our religion. You seem to want a version of Christianity that is devoid of the real message anyways.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

You trivialize it, and put up a strawman that is then easy for you to knock down.
Definition of anti-Christian being trying to ban Christmas Trees and cards, banning the 10 commandments (Yes, a Jew who is anti-religion in general is still anti-Christian), banning the singing of Christmas songs in schools, suing to remove crosses, to remove The Pledge, busting on the Boy Scouts because they dare oppose the homosexuality that seems to be MUCH more prevalent in the Jewish community than in the population at large. I call Gloria Steinham, and all the anti-marriage feminists "anti-Christian", and yes, she, and her buddy Gloria Alred, are both Jews. Moveon.org, and many similar groups, founded by George Soros, commie Jew.


It is more than a few. EVERY MAJOR ANTI_CHRISTIAN organization is run by people who happen to be less than 2% of the US population. That is statistically significant.
Christian America welcomed these people and treated them well, and gave them a free environment in which to succeed. And in return?
For every Einstein there is a Rosenberg. Every time we turn around some person of Jewish heritage is trying to ban some bit of our Christian heritage.

If I invite a Jew to dinner, and he doesn't like my prayer, he can sit silent. If he doesn't like my Christmas tree, or the cards on the wall, he can ignore them. But what we have now are Jews in the US demanding that we shut up lest we offend their ears, that we pull down our ornaments lest we offend their eyes.

Christianity didn't put Jews into ghettos, National Socialism did!! In Russia, Communism did it in different ways. The Christian is the opposition to these philosophies. If you look at who is attacking who during holy times, open your eyes, every Christmas some Jew and his lawyer is pissing on our holiday celebrations.

It doesn't matter if Christians are the "freest, richest...", that doesn't mean that we should sit back and be targets. It doesn't give anyone the right to take shots at us, to ban our customs, to be jerks and then pretend that it doesn't matter because we are the majority. We don't want to burden you with our religion, but if you don't like the nation that was created by Christians, based on Christian ideals, then freaken' leave it, go back to the nation that your (recent) ancestors fled, see how you like it there. If you keep trying to turn our nation into the shithole that your people fled, where will you go next?

ZionistYoungster said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

The way I see it, it's not about offense (I'm a frequent caller for discussions to leave feelings out of it all), but about the misguidedness of talking about Jews specifically when the blame is to be put at the feet of Leftism. The fact that Leftism has captivated many Jews is true and lamentable, but then that only makes the point stronger: Leftism is the culprit.

SouthernFriedBear said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

Just for the sake of argument let's say all of society's ills have indeed been caused by the Jews.

How then could 2% of the population force such things down the throats of the rest of the 98%?

If a piece of ground isn't defended it will fall, no?

The masses will flail and gnash their teeth and yet continue to vote into power those who do not defend their culture.

Why? Bread and circuses.

jeremy said...

"Christianity didn't put Jews into ghettos, National Socialism did!! In Russia, Communism did it in different ways. The Christian is the opposition to these philosophies. If you look at who is attacking who during holy times, open your eyes, every Christmas some Jew and his lawyer is pissing on our holiday celebrations."
Oh really, ghettos predated Nazism by 600 years. Jews were massacred in Germany during the Crusades, were routinely attacked and legally persecuted in Russia in the good old days of the Orthodox Czar. Banned from England for a few centuries as well as Spain. While Nazism was anti-Christian, they made no effort to murder people solely for their Christianity and they had a millenium of Christian taught anti-Semitism to draw on for help in the Final Solution. After all, the Nazis occupied Rome for a year; did they level the Vatican and send the Pope or his Cardinals to the camps? How many papal bulls were issued denouncing the Nazis versus the Communists during the War, if the Nazis were so anti-Christian?
Like I said, those people suing to remove the crosses are wrong, but to compare that to the cruelty that Christians, not just Nazis, visited on Jews in the past is absurd. No Jew came into your church and burned it down or demanded you cease worshipping.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

The Catholic Church is one of the Churches that our founding fathers were escaping from. I didn't want to go the whole "Protestant Christian" route, knowing that would trigger all the Nazi-Baiters. That the Catholic church was pretty tight with a lot of mass-murdering scum is no mystery to anyone, and the Catholic church was not a big player in the creation of the US, except as an example of "what not to do".

So back to reality, we have swarms of Jews trying to shut down all signs of Christianity in the US, even though we welcomed them from wherever they came from.


On a new note:
This is why Christians have to stop being so complacent. I have said for years that the left attacks us and sucks up to muslims out of sheer cowardice. This guy isn't Jewish, but you can bet his attitude is deeply felt by most, just as it was felt by the Jews who abandoned their own in WWII.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/12/11/larry-odonnell-admits-hes-afraid-to-criticize-islam-publicly/

ZionistYoungster said...

Mr. "We have swarms of Jews trying to shut down all signs of Christianity in the US" (even after what I posted) Smarterthanyou,

Go to hell.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

Hey ZY, what you wrote was good and reasoned. But sorry, you are just one of about 10% of all Jews who don't call Christianity their enemy. If you don't like it, maybe you can change some of them. But when the Sharia courts hit, they will put your name on a list and send it in to the Judge, if only to save themselves for a minute longer.

You believe in Israel? Read this and tell me if you trust Jews or Christians to keep it alive:
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders1.htm

ZionistYoungster said...

I don't see why you had to single Jews out when it's all liberal, Marxified people, of any persuasion or none, that are on the warpath to removing Christianity out of the US public scene.

I live in Israel, and no, I don't believe in Israel's current, dhimmi leadership, nor in the USA's leadership either. Israel will be on the royal road to peace and security as soon as this pathetic leadership is replaced by one that doesn't care about world opinion.

SouthernFriedBear said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

(continuing to hold to your premise)

"I would say that societies ills at the moment are largely caused by liberalism. Jews just happen to be at the vanguard of the attacks against Christianity. I don't say they are the blame, but they are a group to be reckoned with."

But as they are a minority, they would need enablers? The traitors you mention, perhaps?

Question: If these enablers did not have the Jews, would they just melt back into society? Or would they find some other group to "lead" them?


"Right now, we have a bunch of traitors holding that ground as a present for our enemies, even if only stupidly and unknowingly. They won't let us defend it, and we are too civilized to kick their asses off that hill so we can fortify it."

"They"? And how did they manage to get a hold of the levers of power?


"But we will have to do more than kick their asses, we will have to kill them or cow them, because anything short of that and they will suck the life out of us in the courts and in the halls of public opinion."

"Kill" duly elected officials?


"We turn the other cheek, and the leftists use that on us as assuredly as the muslims do. Tell me, how do defeat such scum as that guy? Every leftist who ever opened his mouth to a Christian patriot has the same bully streak, and the same cowardly streak. And they own the media and the message."

I've come to the conclusion that two legged trash, parasites, and vermin come in all colors and religions.

They are what they are and should be treated as such.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
jeremy said...

I give up, your right Smarter than You, your such a beaming, positive example of Christianity. I guess that I being a Jew makes me your automatic enemy. I guess that removing that cross is grounds to go out and kill Jewish lawyers and liberal lawmakers. I dunno, but I forgave the Christians for the violent persecution meted out to us in the past by some Christian zealots and I don't go around looking for anti-Semites under each bed. But I have heard a lot more ugly things about Jews out of Christians' mouths than the reverse.

Conservative Swede said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

Re Jews: You are focusing on a detail of no or little importance. Think away the Jews from our society, and we are still in the very same situation. Christan and secular Westerners are committing cultural harakiri en masse all by themselves.

There is, however, a couple of aspects which I think will make Jews more drawn to anti-Western liberalism than others. Being intellectual implies becoming leftist, this has already been mentioned. Another aspect is that they have another strong group identity (national/religious/ethnic). The particular Western country you live in tends to be of less importance if you have another original affiliation. This holds true also of other groups. They generally all, though, adhere to "Western liberalism" (or exploit it, as e.g. the Muslims), which however, together with its institutions (UN, EU, etc) also sees particular Western societies as being of secondary importance. Jews are also the inventors of slave morality, so Marxism (and actually Christianity) is more of a home game to them, than to other Westerners.

So, sure, we could talk about the Jews and what is special for their cultural expression, if you want to. Certain ethnic groups incorporate certain cultural aspects better wherever they are. Look at the Gypsies. They have this amazing talent for music. Go to Romania or to Spain and listen to Gypsy music. It's completely different. They have adapted Romanian and Spanish music and taken it to a new level. Flamenco is Spanish culture, but at the same time it would be nothing like we know it without the Gypsies. Certain ethnic groups have a talent for enhancing certain aspects of the culture where they reside.

Jews have many talents. Politically nowadays their talents are mostly turned against us. But this is just a reflection of the current state of our own society. The Jews are after all just a detail. The problem is with us. And the solution is to "change the music"!

ZY might protest that I refer to Jews as an ethnic group. In that case it would be since he has not understood how widely I use the concept. If there is some component of common decent, or several, and enough glue to hold it together, then that's a ethnic group. Common decent doesn't have to be the main component, and it doesn't have to be a one. If there is the glue to hold it together, it's an ethnic group. Spain comes to mind again.

ZionistYoungster said...

Conswede,

Good comment.

You wrote: "ZY might protest that I refer to Jews as an ethnic group."

No. I refer to Jews as an ethnic group myself. It's when people say Jews are a racial group that I voice disagreement. Jewishness is an ethnicity that spans multiple races.

God bless.
ZY

Baron Bodissey said...

Southernfriedbear is having trouble posting comments. He emailed me with this one and asked me to post it for him:

======================

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

‘They’ in this usage means liberals in general, and they got into power by being willing to use our freedoms against us.

But we have the same or similar methods available. Why aren’t they being employed?

The free press is now propaganda.

As it has always been.

Free speech is now only approved anti-capitalist, anti-Christian speech.

Bombast often has the opposite effect than desired when viewed by the undecided.

If Jews weren’t at the front, they would trot blacks out (we aren’t allowed to say bad things about them either, they have the ultimate “moral authority” card. Whatever trick the liberal cn use to subvert us, he will use.

Am I to understand that you’re saying that Jews have been used to further some other group’s goals?

We just tend to ‘turn the other cheek’ too much.

Yes. Luke 22:35-36 has been forgotten.

And yes, perhaps the day will come when we do have to kill elected officials and unelected bureaucrats. .... Read what conswede wrote about the swedish political system, and tell me that you would rather we end up with that, than to kill off a bunch of ‘duly elected officials’ beforehand.

You do realize such statements bring on the scrutiny of the feds?

Was that your intention? If not, mind the bombast.

The left knows that they cannot take their ultimate final steps without taking gun rights away, and so they are working on it. It should be pretty obvious from how the MSM plays all gun-related issues.

Yes.

Conservative Swede said...

ZY,

I wouldn't mind belonging to an ethnicity of many races, or a mix of races. I think it's fair to say that Spanish ethnicity is an example of this. But these are not things that have been created in laboratories of social engineering by Utopian ideologues. It's something that evolved over many centuries. History is the core aspect of ethnicity.

As shown with the Jews, race cannot be used to define their ethnicity. But it's actually the same with Swedish ethnicity. You are not Swedish because you are white. In once case it's to narrow, in the other too wide. European nations simply do not identify by race.

History is the core aspect of ethnicity. Sweden has a history of high genetical homogeneity. Germany or France are genetical hodgepodges in comparison. This is part of the history and the ethnicity. And sets the frames for how the ethnicity could further develop without breaking apart. Warfare and invasions have often changed this in history. The reason why Sweden is so homogeneous is that we have never been invaded before (too cold, too poor, to uninteresting).

This makes the Swedes more vulnerable and also more naive. Our nationalist narrative has never been about race, it's been all about mocking the Norwegians and fearing the Russians. When being told that we must adapt multiculturalism, we have no reference telling us that it might not be good for us. We are more clueless about what it means than e.g. an Italian, and we are more vulnerable to it's effects since our culture is based on the homogeneity of the population since many centuries back, in a way that it's isn't in other European countries. A German moving to Sweden will find himself in a very exotic place, and not at all what he expected.

Anyway, in spite of the big differences between European countries, it is true that historically it's been white. This is what makes the Bizzarro David Dukes, such as e.g. Epa, state that any sort of European ethnicity is shameful and illegitimate. The actual history of Europe and the fact that it (just as any other place in the world) was inhabited by people of a certain race, is such a horrifying thing to him that it burns his eyes out of their sprockets. And because this his obsession with whiteness, all European ethnicities have to be eradicated. You are automatically a white supremacist if you want to defend it.

In my view, obsession with race, either way, is utterly destructive. I'm neither with BNP nor with Epa. I take the moderate position.

While common decent is a significant aspect of the different European ethnicities, due to history (and why is that such a remarkable thing? So it is in 95% of the world), and has to be respected, it's not a constant. Ethnicity is always evolving. But here as with other things, the healthy approach is evolution; not revolution. People who call for ethnic revolutions are simply not conservatives, they are children of the French Revolution. But people who think that ethnicity is a constant are of the same ahistorical Utopian mindset. The David Dukes and the Bizarro David Dukes have more in common than first meets the eyes. Apart from their fixation with race (in both cases and obsession with white race), what's typical is how their Utopian dreams are always centrally commanded government plans of racial purification or racial mixing, as in Nazi-Germany and Multiculturalism, respectively. Neither respect history, both abuse the people of their countries.

Let people live according to local tradition and self-government, and do not interfere. If the result is homogeneity of the people, then so be it. I cannot see what's wrong with that. It works in Japan.

There will always be "educated" people, of course, who despise the unsophisticated peasants. We had enough Bizarro David Dukes in Sweden who thought that our historical genetical homogeneity was shameful and illegitimate, and that Sweden didn't look sufficiently like New York. So they changed this, and the result can be read about here at GoV.

Baron Bodissey said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou --

Bear is right. I'm glad he brought the matter it to my attention.

Not only does advocating killing people violate a GoV comments rule (#2, "must be temperate"), but it also puts this whole blog at risk. Blogger could shut us down for it.

If you meant your statement metaphorically, please say so explicitly.

If you don't, I'll have to go back through this entire thread, find all the "kill the liberals" statements, and delete them all. That will be a pain in the butt, and will make me -- ahem -- cranky...

I'll give you 10 minutes, and then I begin the laborious process.

Conservative Swede said...

Since I didn't spell it out explicilty enough in the previous comment:

Both centrally commanded government plans of racial purification or racial mixing are ethnic revolutions. Both are in breach of the only healthy approach to anything: evolution. And as all sorts of revolutions, both have their ideological roots in the French Revolution.

Both are at the other end of the scale compared to conservatism.

Baron Bodissey said...

NOTICE TO ALL COMMENTERS:

I just had to hunt down and delete some comments which were intemperate, and threatened GoV through their infammatory statements.

I will not engage in this kind of operation on a routine basis.

Since Blogger does not allow me to ban people, I will be forced to close posts to comments if this continues.

This is not what I want to do. I hope you all can control yourselves, because these comment threads are extraordinarily informative and valuable.

You have been warned.

Conservative Swede said...

Just to connect this discussion to another discussion involving Ethelred and Jason Pappas:

Western civilization does not consist of a set of universal ideas. It consists of a set of particular countries, with many different local traditions.

It is true that the vision of the Western civilization consists of a set of universal ideas. But remove the material foundation for this, and the vision is nothing but an illusion, that will be no more alive than a ghost.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

I just got home from work. Let me clarify my comments re the govt:

I support the intent of the Declaration of Independence.

I support the previously quoted Patrick Henry. The tree of liberty is wilting, and it we must be ready to nurture it, if needed. That may sound inflammitory, but if it is, then we have lost the freedom to quote our founding fathers. When that happens, we live in tyranny.

Baron Bodissey said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou --

You are being satisfactorily elliptical now. If you can couch your opinions in terms like this, all will be well here. :)

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

I somehow had faith that you would understand.

SouthernFriedBear said...

"That may sound inflammitory, but if it is, then we have lost the freedom to quote our founding fathers. When that happens, we live in tyranny.

Yes. But it is also good to be prudent.

I'm still wondering if I correctly understand that you’re saying that Jews have been used to further some other group’s goals?

(crossing fingers and hoping that blogger will let me post)

USpace said...

Mr. Smarter Than Thou -

Jeez, give it a rest with the Jews already! First of all, there are only about 16 million on the whole planet, out of over 6 BILLION people! That's only about .25% of the whole population! Only idiot thinking can lead to worrying about and complaining about the Jews. About half of those are in America, and what, maybe half or more of them can vote.

So if 75% have an 'appease terrorists' attitude then 3 Million Jewish voters are to blame for America appeasing Islamofascist terrorist monkeys and their monkey supporters? Get real man.

Antisemitism is what the monkeys believe. Do you agree with the terrorist monkeys? Are you a monkey?

So the Jews were the first to claim there was just one God and thus shake the beliefs of all the Polytheists. BOO HOO! Get over it!

This is shameful, all Christians should be ashamed for the behavior of their dhimmidiot Church leaders.

People should go up in their church when they are invited up to offer a prayer and say "I'd like to offer a prayer this Christmas for all the oppressed and harassed Arab Christians being driven out of Palestine." And the church won't be able to stop it, it will be too quick.

This will open some eyes and get some parishioners wanting to learn more about this.

absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
harass all Christians

drive them from your lands
or watch people leave Islam


absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
blame your failings on the Jews

for a few more thousand years
they are Earth's scapegoats


absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
give Israel away

to appease her enemies
dishonor America


absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
go ahead and blame the Jews

IslamoFascists and YOU
believe the same crazy shit


absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
blame a small population

deflect your people's anger
let them feel superior


http://haltterrorism.com/

http://www.warning1938alert.ytmnd.com/
.

latte conservative said...

Mr. Smarter than You posted: A rabbi got the Christmas tree removed at SEATAC, but he backtracked after the outrage.

Actually, the rabbi only asked that the airport display a menorah for Hanukkah, he never objected to Christmas trees. The airport chickened out over displaying the Christmas tree. Of course the rabbi was embarrassed, but he wasn't at fault, his request was innocent and not the least bit anti-Christian.

Conswede, I agree about Jews being an ethnic group. My Jewish identity is 100% ethnic, I'm not religious and was not raised in any religion. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've explained to a new acquaintance, I'm Jewish like an Italian-American is Italian. Lots of people don't get this. I also identify as white, because I am white. Lots of people don't get this either.

If anyone thinks the plague of liberalism is exclusively a Jewish thing, please visit San Francisco sometime. I live in the area, and the idiot liberals who run this place aren't very Jewish at all. Very gentile, some Jews but not as influential as New York, for instance, where I'm originally from, so I can see the difference in person.

Conservative Swede said...

But in both places they drink a lot of cafe latte, right?

Conservative Swede said...

Btw, Latte C,

In another thread David had referred to Jews as non-whites ("insult to Jews and other non-whites"), to which you pointed out that most Jews of European descent are white.

Facts matter little in the PC narrative, suggestion is at the core. Jews are seen as honorary non-whites, quite as women are seen as an honorary minority. Don't be surprised if you the next time hear David construct sentences like "...oppressed minorities such as homosexuals, blacks and women...". This is how their minds work.

ZionistYoungster said...

Conswede,

I think we find great agreement in that an ethnicity gains its basis from the historical events and not from top-down engineering by intellectuals. It looks likely to me that it is the foremost reason for the Transatlantic Gap: because the USA hasn't been around for long, American nationalism lacks the historicity of the others, therefore by necessity has to be based on ideas. Not that that's a permanent situation: American history too is building up as the years go by. But it does make for a gap in understanding.

And it looks like we both take after Friedrich Hayek in advocating localization. It's something I've thought about ever since I finished seeing all the Star Wars movies: the Galactic Republic became disorderly and corrupt, thus ripe for becoming the Galactic Empire, for the promise of restoring order and integrity. The Republic had gotten that way because it had grown too big. Why did a whole galaxy need to be a Republic all its own anyhow? What was wrong with the various planetary (i.e. local) democracies? In "Galactic" lay the seeds of the Republic's downfall. If no Galactic Republic, then no Galactic Empire.

God bless.
ZY

ZionistYoungster said...

I must be seeing things.

The Baron wrote: "I just had to hunt down and delete some comments which were intemperate [...] I will be forced to close posts to comments if this continues."

What is this?! GoV going down the same route as LGF?! Imposing constraints on discussion at a time when it needs to be free?!

OK, I've had it. The first sign of things to come from Charles Johnson was when he said that commenters needed to avoid "loose-cannon hate speech". This announcement here rings too similar in my ears for comfort.

An agora, they said. Yeah, some agora this is: a new kind, where discussion is supervised top-down. Not your old-fashioned Athenian agora, but the new, improved Web 2.0 kind.

I'm done wasting my time on this tomfoolery. "Blogosphere Counter-Jihad", sure. If only the Muslims confined themselves to cyberblabbering, we wouldn't have any need for counter-jihad.

Time for the feet to get back on the ground.

Greatly disappointed,
ZY

Baron Bodissey said...

THIS IS A COMMENT FROM DYMPHNA, USING THE BARON'S COMPUTER:

The Baron wrote: "I just had to hunt down and delete some comments which were intemperate [...] I will be forced to close posts to comments if this continues."

To which Zionist Youngster replied:

What is this?! GoV going down the same route as LGF?! Imposing constraints on discussion at a time when it needs to be free?!

Are you joking and I'm just too dense to get the humor?

****************

I wish there were some way to have a big sign at the top of each empty comment box to remind people who have something to say that it must be (1)temperate;(2)civil; (3)refrain from four letter words; (4)no ad hominem attacks.

What you are complaining about ZY, is the deletion of anti-Semitic comments and calls for murder. Do you consider those within the realm of free speech? I don't.

There are a few comments still up that -- were it up to me -- would come down because at the very least they skirt the edges of anti-Semitism...

"Free" speech, like "liberty" has its boundaries. If you think our rules are too restrictive to allow you to engage in a free-flowing dialogue, I would like to hear your argument. I'm willing to listen -- within the parameters of the rules listed above.

Dymphna

Baron Bodissey said...

ZY --

This is the real Baron back here, matching my own icon again, after D's brief usurpation.

I absolutely HAVE to delete comments that incite murder. Someone could report something like that to Blogger to get us shut down. If I had my own server, one that was totally under my own control, I might be more lax.

But I don't want to have our blog dropped out from under us, so I must maintain this standard.

We have our rules, and they have been clearly delineated any number of times. They demarcate the limits to our discussions here. Calling for the killing of liberals counts as "intemperate" in my book, and I won't have it.

It's not like I haven't told everybody the rules.

Conservative Swede said...

ZY,

I think you are really cool.

Conservative Swede said...

Btw,

While you find inspiration in Star Wars, I find it from the movie Life of Brian. Any important discussion of grand social theory, and it would suffice for me to strictly use examples from that movie.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

As a purely theoretical discussion:
Is it incitement to murder to say that tyrants should be shot? Is shooting tyrants murder? Would it have been murder if the plot to assassinate Hitler had been successful?

Or to say that our founding fathers would call upon us to shoot the SOB's?

My argument (theoretical in every way), was that we have people among us that are preventing us to respond to foreign threats, and are doing their damndest to bring that threat into our living rooms. Sooner or later that must be dealt with.

Is that any more pre-emptive than our founders firing on the British as they marched TO the arms caches? Was that murder, or should the Colonists have waited until the British had taken all our arms, muzzled us completely in the press, and began treating us as outright slaves before we fought back? What if the British were content to treat us only half way like slaves, like serfs. Should we then have only used the courts to secure our liberties? The courts were theirs, we would still be begging the courts for their indulgences.

SouthernFriedBear said...

Mr. Smarterthanyou,

Good evening.

We aren't dealing with tyrants presently. More like several cartels.

Drop one frontman and another takes his place.

Question: What would you propose doing with all of the people that voted in the targeted individual? Do you think your theoretical action(s) might galvanize them to march further leftward?

Nyog of the Bog said...

-ZY,




"It looks likely to me that it is the foremost reason for the Transatlantic Gap: because the USA hasn't been around for long, American nationalism lacks the historicity of the others, therefore by necessity has to be based on ideas."

It would seem unfortunate, that owing to decades of marxist indoctrination in our schools, media, etc, increasingly, the originalist ideas on which our American Nationalism are to be based, are no longer known to most Americans. Generally speaking, my guess is, most American Conservatives are self made and by that I mean, at least in regards their political philosophy and, outside their formal schooling, self educated, which also implies, disabusing ones self of said, same indoctrination, after the fact. That takes time and much effort on ones own time, generally arising out of some epiphany, reality-mugging, etc. where upon the true learning can only be beginning. Barring some unforeseen calamity or crisis, I don't see us out numbering our opposition anytime soon and looking at the current politics, it appears we are in for a long winter.

More over, you speak as if America will continue be. Sad to say, now in my 49th year and eight years into this increasingly frightful century, with each day I pass, I am reminded, if you will allow, of a self-taught truth (my own) of Rome's passing, how, what we think of when we think of Rome, never really fell, but rather, at some indeterminate point, simply ceased to be recognizable as Rome. Curious to think that only a few short years ago a viable secessionist movement here in The States seemed Birchian in its absurdity yet as has already been noted on this blog before, and by minds better schooled than my own, the ultimate outcome of the multiculturalism process is balkanization.

As for the Trans-Atlantic Gap, I blame it on the ocean of the same name and the fact of again, the time and effort required to become even passingly familiar with the culture and history, on top of one's own, of another Nation. Its just allot of work, its on your own time and for Americans, if there is one remaining cultural constant and saving grace that does show no sign of fading it is an ethic for work. But of course, thats for money and survival, leaving for the most of us, little time or energy for else.

Mr. Smarterthanyou said...

No, because liberals are bullys and cowards. When the right protested in Fla in 2000, it scared the shit out of them. If they realized that the liberty minded in the US were finally not taking it anymore, they would hide, or try turning on someone more passive.

Currently, the right is the most passive group out there. That is why they can attack Mormons, Catholics etc, because they arent fighting back. They suck up to mulsims because they do fight back

kahaneloyalist said...

ZY, I hope you will reconsider leaving blogging, I think you are probably the most articulate of the Zionist bloggers, and for legal reasons Baron does need to remove posts that call for murder. Under US law you can say basically anything shy of calling for crimes to be committed.

USpace said...

Of course the Left is the most "passive group out there" when it comes to dealing with Islamofascists.

The arguments of the Left don't hold up to logic, reason, and history. We must engage our Leftist friends and families one on one in debate. This is a way to start to change some Lefty minds, plant seeds for thought.

For example, make them start to see the truth in Hitler being a creature from the Left. They'll shriek, "NO, He's from the Far Right!" That's possibly the biggest lie the communists and the Left have brainwashed the people with.

When I was much younger I used to think that the biggest dangers were coming from the Right. How wrong I was.

absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
never debate moonbat thoughts

truth eventually wins
one on one they will fold
.