Wednesday, December 12, 2007

Is Ethnicity Irrelevant in the USA?

The Fjordman Report

The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.
For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here.



I know many people on the outside are puzzled by this fight with LGF and believe it is about personal egos alone. I disagree. There are very real issues involved here. Perhaps one of the most important ones is whether ethnicity matters or whether it is not just wrong but evil to talk about it.

Many Americans seem to believe it’s all about the Constitution, and that everybody who sets foot on US soil is equally an American.. Put in the extreme, this view would mean that you could exchange the present US population with 300 million Zulus, yet the USA would still remain as American as apple pie if the Constitution remained in place. I’m not so sure that is true.

I see no indication that ethnicity is irrelevant in the USA. On the contrary, I see indications that the importance of ethnic rivalries is growing within the US along with mass immigration from non-Western countries. The reason why this haven’t had serious repercussions yet is because the white majority clings to the idea that ethnicity doesn’t matter. But as the white majority grows smaller and eventually disappears, these ethnic rivalries could potentially grow a lot worse as there would no longer be a stable majority group in the country.

The USA, and Canada, Australia and New Zealand, were founded as modern states by people of European origins. European Americans made up almost 90% of the population in the USA until a few decades ago. I don’t know about a single example where a country has totally changed its majority population, and where the people who originally shaped the country’s institutions have been rendered a minority, and where this hasn’t resulted in a huge change in that country’s culture.

If the present immigration to the USA continues, the culture will change profoundly, and a few decades from now the USA will no longer be a Western country. Alternatively, the United States as a unified country could collapse. I’ve mentioned that option before. It’s perhaps not the most likely scenario, but it is one that Americans should take seriously. If the USA should, for some reason, not survive this century in its present shape, it will be because ethnicity does matter after all:

US minorities don’t trust each other

The three main minorities in the United States — blacks, Hispanics and Asians — have little trust for each other and hold prejudiced views about Americans of different ethnic origins to their own, a poll showed Wednesday.

“This extraordinary poll reveals some unflattering realities that exist in America today,” said Sandy Close, head of new America Media (NAM) which sponsored the poll together with ethnic media groups.

Forty-four percent of Hispanics and 47 percent of Asians are “afraid of African-Americans because they are responsible for most of the crime,” the survey of 1,105 adults drawn from the three ethnic groups showed.
- - - - - - - - -
More than half of black Americans polled and 46 percent of Hispanics said Asian business owners do not treat them with respect.

And half of African-Americans said Latin American immigrants “are taking jobs, housing and political power away from the black community.”

Hispanics and Asians, whose populations are made up mainly of immigrants, were positive about the American dream, saying that those who work hard in the United States reap the rewards of their toil.

In contrast, more than 60 percent of African-Americans dismissed the American dream as not working for them.

All three ethnic groups viewed white Americans in a more favorable light than they did members of another minority.

Sixty-one percent of Hispanics, 54 percent of Asians and 47 percent of African-Americans said they would rather do business with whites than members of the other two groups.

“The poll reaffirms that while race relations between ethnic groups and whites grab the headlines, there are also serious racial problems between minority groups in America,” said Sergio Bendixen, an expert on Hispanic and multilingual polling.

“Blacks feel they are left out of the American Dream and are being displaced by newcomers, and each group buys into the negative stereotypes about the other two,” he said.

The three minority groups did agree that the United States would be a better place if blacks, Asians and Hispanics held more authoritative positions at universities, in business, media and government.

They also said they believe racial tensions in the United States will ease over the next 10 years.

42 comments:

cadgbd said...

There was a study published fairly recently, that the forced multiculturalism we have today actually leads to distrust, and social isolation. People are not happy forced to live in socially engineered multicultural societies.

Somebody reading this might recall that report.

Sodra Djavul said...

Very good article, Fjordman. It certainly should be noted that such severe shifts in historically "minority" groups have only occurred over the last 60 years or so. Which of course begs the question, "Are these Zulus really equal?"

So many otherwise intelligent individuals misread the American Declaration of Independence, specifically the phrase "all men are created equal" to provide support for a colorblind society. It really is shocking to see just how deeply this politically correct brainwashing has taken hold. I can only compare it to the premise of "The Matrix."

So the minority activists at Al Sharpton's National Action Network and Charles Johnson's LGF would have us believe that the landed slave-owning white founding fathers of the United States were proto-human rights activists. They would have welcomed the third world in with open arms.

Never, of course, is that phrase put into context of opposition to the monarchy as a system of government. I personally believe the phrase "all men are created equal" was designed specifically as a provocation to King George, not an appeal to the "teeming starving masses yearning to breath free."

At any rate, my opinion is that the "politically correct" brainwashing inherent in American culture is far too widespread to salvage the nation as a whole. There are indeed dark days ahead. But splitting the country, which I would've considered unthinkable just 4 years ago, is no longer necessarily something I hold in natural revulsion.

Sadly, modern America is unworthy of her ancestors. And they were white.

- Sodra

Charlemagne said...

Fjordman - have you been reading my obscure blog?

March: http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/2007/03/history-multiculturalism-and-end-of.html

June: http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/2007/06/post-america-america.html

Great minds...

Anonymous said...

These people who think it's only about the Constitution probably don't have two sets of African neighbors, as I do. Sure, they're middle class and don't bother anyone, but they don't have the slightest idea about what it means to be a neighbor in America. Both families: televisions blaring most of the time, don't say good morning or make eye contact, etc. How many generations will it take for them to understand how to share space? Why should natives (me) have to live with Africans? My neighbors aren't bad people, but they're bad neighbors, because their culture is incompatible with mine. My once charming little beach community has been overrun with people from everywhere in the world, who don't know what this little town is about. They only squat here, they're not Americans, and only some of their children will become Americans in a cultural sense.

Archonix said...

Well... in this instance, I disagree with you all.

or let me put it another way, I can see why you would think this way - unassimilated immigrants cause what is often euphemistically described as "tension" and akrge numbers of immigrants in a short time will overwhelm the host culture - but I can't subscribe to this idea that minorities will inevitably overwhelm the host culture by their sheer presence. The problem is assimilation, as I just mentioned. In the 50s, the UK brought in a large number of afro-carribbean workers to bolster the population lost during the second world war. They assimilated, by and large, and their children are as English as any other native of these isles. The thing is, they were brought in, already quite immersed in English - as opposed to British - culture and generally willing to work. They assimilated. Of course they kept hold of their parent culture and that slowly blended into the host culture over time but, importantly, they didn't cling to it in defiance of th culture they were joining.

There will be similar stories in most of Europe. Of course their culture is different. There is more tribalism on the continent, that can't be denied, but that's born out of living in a land where national borders used to regularly shift a hundred miles in a week, where you were loyal to your city and your king and outsiders were shunned. Historically those outsiders were white or, at a pinch, moorish; the defence against outsiders was not based on race, it was based on them being from somewhere else.

Anyway that was a bit of a tangent. Even in that environment minorities can successfully assimilate. There's a sizeable African minority in France, for example, that is as French as any other frenchman. They assimilated into French culture is the point I'm making. The problem in France, as with all other places, is a very large, rapidly growing, unassimilated migrant population that is threatening to overwhelm the host culture and refusing to adapt to that culture in any way.

That is the problem. Where immigrants adopt the host culture there is no problem, or at least there are only problems that can be solved by a little bit of talking. Where, for example, migrants to the US adopt the culture - the flag, the constitution, rule of law, apple pie, baseball and a bunch of other things I don't have space to list - they will fit in. They will be American. Their race is unimportant.

Now, again, in Europe the barrier is considerably higher because of the "outsider! BAAAD!" mentality but that can be overcome by simply making yourself an insider. That means consciously adopting the ways of the people you're trying to join. It means being French or Flemish, or Bavarian, or a bunch of other things. There will of course be people who judge solely on skin colour, but that's just the outsider mentality expressing on the most obvious indicator, not racism per se. Seen in that light, comments like DeWinters take on a new caste (fhnar fhnar). They aren't nice, I don't necessarily agree with them (I would have said something along the lines of "I want a return to the values of the enlightenment... but it's hard to define "european" values without making reference to the superficial racial component really), but I can at least understand where they come from. If you were to, say, replace "white" with "French" and "Europe" with "France" the comment would be considered innocuous. "I want a French France!" is no less discriminatory - in fact it is even more arbitrary, but it doesn't have the keywords we've been sensitised to by multiculturalism. Without clarification, the phrase "a white europe" or "a french france" are almost meaningless in and off themselves. We will all ascribe a meaning to them based on our own cultural understandings but that meaning may well be nothing like the intended meaning. Clarification is the key. DeWinter strikes me as not the best public speaker at times.

Incidentally, latte conservative, have you ever tried talking to your neighbour about things like the television blaring? Just curious.

Anonymous said...

Archonix, yes, I've made several complaints to building management, and my neighbors have complied to the extent that I no longer feel compelled to break my lease, although I won't renew next year. I only gave my neighbors as an example of the general principal, that although African and other immigrants who are "making it" here and seem to be complying with cultural norms, like my neighbors are, cause they work and drive nice cars, they're completely beside the point and disruptive in an aesthetic sense of what my little town has always been about until recently. I see a charming, quaint, specific community being transformed for no particular reason, except to accommodate people who have no connection to this place.

I don't want to be a hater, in fact I like some foreigners personally, obligatory liberal disclaimer which happens to be true...But why is this happening, why do we have to allow and even subsidize these squatters? If large numbers of white people took over an African community it would be called colonialism and everyone would condemn it. Bonus question for pro-immigration folks: how is the non-white invasion of California different from the Zionist revolution in Israel or the white colonies of South Africa and Rhodesia? Discuss.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

...principle...

Speaking of everyday life as opposed to polls, I'd like to share something that happened recently in my formerly charming small town, Alameda, CA. On Halloween night, a gang of Vietnamese immigrant teenagers shot and killed a 16 year old girl, a Mongolian immigrant who was hanging out in a nice park in my neighborhood with 10 friends, also Mongolian immigrants. The entire community was outraged, and the punks were caught almost immediately. It was the first murder of the year. Alameda averages one murder per year, and it's almost always solved, because of the good relationship between the community and the police.

Right after the murder, the murdered girl's parents said something about how they were surprised America was so violent. No one protested this statement publicly, but I thought to myself, right, a Vietnamese shoots a Mongolian, and America gets blamed. Wait, it gets better! After the punks were caught, an Asian youth group from the notorious basket-case next town of Oakland, actually demonstrated in front of the Alameda Police Department, accusing the cops of profiling the killers because they were Asian. I'm not making this up. Do you immigration enthusiasts understand what I'm saying here? All of these people are American citizens. I'm sorry, but they aren't Americans, and I don't want them here.

1389 said...

Charlemagne,

When you post a link, you need to follow the instructions given at the beginning of the comments portion of the blog post. If you don't put in the HTML for an "anchor," the link will not be "clickable."

rohan said...

I think the important aspect of how immigrants impact the host country is the mindset of the immigrant when they come to the US. If they come here buying into the American Dream they will assimilate pretty quickly, and their children will be fully assimilated. I have to say, though, that USED to be the case. Immigrants were encouraged and expected to assimilate. Now, they are given every reason in the world not to assimilate, so they don't And if you're an illegal alien you really are coddled. The immigrants coming to the U.S. with the correst mindset have been overwhelmed by those who do not. Prognosis - not pleasant.

As far as the survey of minorities, every result of the survey appears valid to me in comparison to what I see in my every day life. The negativity of the black population can be directly attributed to the wonderful "Great Society" which destroyed the black family and created the culture of dependency.

Chalons said...

latte conservative..

I can understand your frustration with what you see with your own eyes, but I do not think it is the immigrants themselves that are at the root of the problem. I believe it's a larger societal issue and that is the failure to set expectations and expect results. It is liberal/progressive world view that is producing these miscreants by viewing them as members of a victim group and therefore not responsible for their own behavior. It goes back to the issues that Fjordman so ably addresses in many of his writings. The breakdown on our culture enables bad behavior. Theodore Darymple also has written excellently on cultural breakdown in the British experience.

America is dysfunctional on matters of race. Look at the Duke University Lacrosse team rape case and the 'Duke 88' professors. How the case against the white males got as far as it did is truly frightening and entirely racial. That's only one of many examples. Another might be the support for Obama as president. He is not getting support because of his wisdom, intellect, experience, or ability. Actually I think Obama is a fine example of how many Americans go utterly stupid when race becomes a factor. He is different, therefore he must be good. Nothing else really matters. Well, that's insane.

So again, the root problem is the identity group group politics and the victim mentality it promotes. We have universities full of 'Duke 88' type professors seeped in bias and prejudice.

The real racists in America end to be the ones who yell 'Racism!' the loudest. They are the ones who hold people to different standards based on skin color. They are the ones who hold groups of people to lower standards based upon their ethnicity. They are the ones who try to use race to excuse bad behavior. They are the ones who see race in everything. They are mentally ill.

I do believe that America is superior to Europe in some ways. But ALL those ways are attributable
to the 'dead white men' who produced the American Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

Contemporary American culture on the other hand is quite an embarrassment. I cite the lack of condemnation of the rap/hip-hop culture and the bankrupt narcissistic value system promoted by MTV and a relentless bombardment of commerical advertising as prime examples of what is wrong with America. It's inconsistent to be outraged by Islamic dysfunction and go completely silent on black hip-hop misogyny and a 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate and the crime that results from children raised in fatherless homes with the message that they cannot unless they get some sort of special consideration bestowed upon them by the white leftists.

Diana West is quite right in her book 'The Death of the Grown-up' subtitles 'How America's arrested Development is Bringing down Western Civilization".

You can see this adolescence at manifested in the LFG comments. The depth of their objections to Islamic radicals seems to be 'Hey, these guys want to mess up my fun and stand in the way of my narcisism!' Granted that is a huge improvement over those who label LFG lizards as racists and fascists (the DailyKos and DemocraticUnderground tribes) . At least LGF is generally on the right side of the fence regarding Islam, but they are still a long way from honest debate on other matters. You can see evidence of 'Duke 88' influence in the comment threads at LGF with out having to look for it. Arguments there tend rely more on other tribe members rallying to achieve 'We are right by consensus' result than being correct though logic, reason, and by way of evidence.

American culture has become a one of permanent adolescence. It does seem to be largely a generational phenomenon - and yes, there are exceptions to that. But overall, the trend does not bode well for future generations. We cannot cruise on the wisdom of 'Dead White Men' forever. Honestly, when I read the news today, I am astonished that they were able to produce a model that could withstand the relentless assault for this long.

We are in trouble.

Ed Mahmoud said...

Americans of African ancestry do commit violent crimes at wildlt disproportinate rates. I think if Jim Crow segregation laws had ended sooner, or the Johnson 'Great Society' welfare state, which rewarded irresponsible behavior, had started later, Black folks would be far better off.


That said, the leader of our neighborhood association is Black, nice older gentleman, has the bearing of retired police or military, and you couldn't ask for a better neighbor.

And my legally in the US Salvadoran next door neighbor is a fine person.

Charlemagne said...

March: History, Multiculturalism, end of the West

June: Post America, America

Anonymous said...

Somebody reading this might recall that report.

The study you are talking about was done by Robert Putnam, the Harvard sociologist. He found that "diversity" far from being a strength, actually destroys community cohesion and what he calls "social capital" and what we would probably call "the ties that bind." The study took something like seven years and surveyed hundreds of communities in the US and thousands of people. Of course, It is not rocket science that cramming people from all over the world, many from incompatible cultures, will seriously disrupt an established community -- but then Putnam is a liberal Harvard sociologist, so he had to have a study to "prove" what has been obvious throughout history for thousands of years.

The KnickerBlogger said...

Queen- the evidence isn't going to stop them from their agenda- the overall reaction has been 'okay so how can we make it work' and the answer of course, is more centralized power, more authority more forced diversity training.

Vergeltung said...

until immigration and "race" issues all lead to one thing; assimilation into one "american" culture, immigration and race will continue to be a problem here in the US.

My ancestors (Irish Catholics) and my wife's ancestors (Italian/Portuguese Catholics) came here to BECOME americans, not some disgruntled sub-group. That is the key issue, IMO.

Chalons said...

Queen,

Here is more on 'that' Putnam report

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x


here is the abstract found at the above link:

"Ethnic diversity is increasing in most advanced countries, driven mostly by sharp increases in immigration. In the long run immigration and diversity are likely to have important cultural, economic, fiscal, and developmental benefits. In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social capital. New evidence from the US suggests that in ethnically diverse neighbourhoods residents of all races tend to ‘hunker down’. Trust (even of one's own race) is lower, altruism and community cooperation rarer, friends fewer. In the long run, however, successful immigrant societies have overcome such fragmentation by creating new, cross-cutting forms of social solidarity and more encompassing identities. Illustrations of becoming comfortable with diversity are drawn from the US military, religious institutions, and earlier waves of American immigration"

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Fjordman, don't you think you are being more than slightly hypocritical?

On the one hand, you rightly condemn Charles Johnson and the ignorant Americans of Little Green Footballs for calling Europeans racists because their cultures built upon an ethnic and religious identity, which Americans are ignorant of.

On the other hand, you impose the same concepts of ethnic and religious identity upon a nation (the United States) that is built upon an entirely different cultural model.

The model of the United States, despite the periodic eruptions of ignorant nativist "know-nothing"-ism here (which, you notice, never lasts and never becomes the majority opinion), is one of assimilation. It doesn't matter what nation, race, or religion you have when you come to the U.S. - if you are willing to assimilate, assume American cultural values, and (very importantly) learn the English language, you will be welcome.

And if the immigrant himself has trouble fully assimilating, his children and grandchildren will not.

In the early 20th century major American cities had foreign language newspapers, notably German and Yiddish ones, with large circulations. Those papers are gone - the children of their readers didn't read German or Yiddish.

Recent studies show that 75% of all third-generation Mexican-Americans (the grandchildren of the immigrants) don't even speak Spanish.

Fjordman, next time you try to impose your views of culture and identity on the U.S., remember how Charles Johnson has imposed HIS views of culture and identity upon Europe.

Sodra Djavul said...

Gordon wrote:
"The model of the United States, despite the periodic eruptions of ignorant nativist "know-nothing"-ism here (which, you notice, never lasts and never becomes the majority opinion), is one of assimilation. It doesn't matter what nation, race, or religion you have when you come to the U.S. - if you are willing to assimilate, assume American cultural values, and (very importantly) learn the English language, you will be welcome."

With all due respect Gordon, this is nothing more than Leftist dogma trotted out as fact. If the American model really was as you suggest, you would never have seen Benjamin Franklin writing extensively over his concerns of unchecked Germanic immigration. If your views on the "model of the United States" were true, we would not have seen Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, deriding those of African heritage with such fury as is evident in his writings.

Face it. If the Founding Fathers of the U.S. were alive today, you would call them racists.

Repeating the Leftist mantra that the U.S. was founded on an idea over and over with your eyes closed and your fingers stuck in your ears does not make it true.

- Sodra

PRCalDude said...

Recent studies show that 75% of all third-generation Mexican-Americans (the grandchildren of the immigrants) don't even speak Spanish.

Fjordman, next time you try to impose your views of culture and identity on the U.S., remember how Charles Johnson has imposed HIS views of culture and identity upon Europe.


Speaking from Los Angeles, boy are you way off.

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Sodra - instead of looking at the mistaken writings of American founding fathers, why don't you look at FACTS.

FACT - despite Franklin's concerns, German-Americans are entirely assimilated in the U.S. The last outbreak of any significant anti-German feelings (toward German-Americans, not Germany!) was during World War I.

FACT - African-Americans remain marginalized in American culture - but since African-Americans can trace their American lineage back much longer than most White Americans into the 18th and early 19th centuries, the "unassimilable recent immigrant" theory doesn't quite wash, now does it? There's obviously something else going on here that has nothing to do with immigration. As, obviously, with an even more marginalized group of Americans, "Native"-Americans (formerly known as Indians)!

FACT - the ethnic/racial group in the U.S. that is scoring highest on standardized tests and is recording higher earning levels, levels of education, etc. are Asian-Americans, all of whom are 20th Century immigrants, and racially unassimilable according to some. They are supplanting the last century's stars, Jewish-Americans, religiously unassimilable according to the conventional logic of the early 20th Century.

FACT - the most "backward" parts of the U.S., in terms of income, education, violence, other social indicators, are those parts of the nation (the non-booming parts of the South, Appalachia) that have had the least immigration over the past two centuries. Most American Appalachian residents are the descendants of 17th and 18th century English, Scottish, and Irish immigrants. This is America's future if immigration is stopped.

And, Prcaldude, I am not way off. The Spanish you hear in Los Angeles is spoken by the actual immigrants, and perhaps their children. 75% of their grandchildren will not speak Spanish, if current trends continue.

Immigrants to the U.S. want to succeed - that's why they come here, not to collect welfare benefits. And, to really succeed in the U.S., you must speak English.

PRCalDude said...

And, Prcaldude, I am not way off. The Spanish you hear in Los Angeles is spoken by the actual immigrants, and perhaps their children. 75% of their grandchildren will not speak Spanish, if current trends continue.

Immigrants to the U.S. want to succeed - that's why they come here, not to collect welfare benefits. And, to really succeed in the U.S., you must speak English.

How is speaking English any indication of whether or not they've assimilated? Their kids still fly Mexican flags and cling to their racism and Mexican heritage as if their parents had never left Mexico in the first place. Their crime rates are disproportionally high and their educational achievement is low. I'm not sure which hispanics you've been paying attention to, but in Los Angeles, San Diego, and every other place in California, there's white neighborhoods and hispanic neighborhoods. I call that balkanization, not assimilation. In Los Angeles, almost all of the whites live north of the 10 and west of the 405 fwys, but definitely west of the 405 as you head south until you hit Carson, where it becomes entirely Mexican or black. In San Diego, all the whites live north of the 8 fwy. There's a racial division that's so obvious, I guess assimilation to you means only that their kids are learning English (somewhat). Mostly, it's a form of poor English spoken with a Mexican accent combined with some half Spanish.

Assimilation is not primarily a matter of whether one can speak the native tongue. By that definition we'd have millions of Indians and Chinese who've "assimilated." It's a matter of the degree to which immigrants conform to cultural norms and cling to the ethnic heritage of their home countries. If places like Los Angeles are any indication, then there is no assimilation going on, only dispossession of Americans.

Sodra Djavul said...

Gordon,

1)German-Americans are entirely assimilated into America because the America they immigrated into frowned on speaking German, as the original inhabitants viewed Germanic peoples barbaric. These "racist," or as I call them, "cultural preservative," tendencies of which you speak actually assisted German immigrants in their assimilation. But it did not happen overnight, and common ground could be found through religion and race.

2)How anyone in their right mind can think that African Americans remain marginalized in this society when they dominate sports, pop music, and entertainment is beyond me. They are given preferential treatment in educational opportunities. They are given preferential treatment in employment opportunities. The fact they remain addicted to crime and the lower economic echelons cannot be assigned to anyone but themselves. Again, what you are repeating is Leftist dogma, not fact.

3) Asian civilization has always been technologically advanced, even in ancient times. In fact, I am of the firm belief that Asians are inherently more technologically adept than Europeans. So to believe that they would succeed in an open political and economic environment, in stark contrast to their own home countries, where there still exists institutionalized repression is quite logical. How this buttresses your argument, however, is unclear to me. Am I better off because the immigrant next to me is making more money? How so? Not that I resent Asians of their accomplishments. But how is that relevant?

4) Non-booming parts of the country, which you reference as Appalachia and the South, were always economically depressed zones. Not because of their racial makeup, as you suggest, but due to their remoteness. Any student of marketing understands that transportation is the primary cost driver of most goods and services. Lack of access to effective transportation means less competitive ability. It's a geographical issue, and your assertion that it is based on their "whiteness" is, again, Leftist mantra, not fact.

So do you have any real, actual facts instead of opinions simply dressed up with your label of "FACT?"

- Sodra

The KnickerBlogger said...

Gorodon
Up until at least 1980 - at least 60% of the people in this country had English stock - before WWII it was even higher- but you're smoking crack, or reading little green footballs, if you think that genetically and culturally similar North Europeans assimilating to an Anglo-Saxon core culture is the same thing as africans, asians and so on.

And even with a heavy assimilation ethic it took years and in the case of the Irish centuries - to assimilate - and along they way they draft rioted during the civil war and tried to prevent America's entry into WWII not because of any interest in America, but to help Develara and Ireland. it is impossible for the current wave to assimilate without destroying our identity - oh that's what Neocons like David Horowitz want to do (we'll be a nation of 'cappuccino' colored people - could you imagine someone advocating a similar 'solution' say for Israel?)

Funny but not surprising that a neocon like you would call the founding father's views a mistake, that pretty well sums it up, I guess.

Michael said...

New immigrants, in my experience, are ALWAYS more suspicious of other minority groups than of the majority. My Slovak grandmother, when referring to blacks, would always whisper a certain word in Slovak (not sure of the spelling, sounded like "See-gonny") which I have since learned was first applied to Romany groups in Slovakia. My wife's Irish mother is still more suspicious of other immigrants and she has been a US citizen since 1962. How is this explained? Some would point to anecdotes like these to "prove" that Europeans are inherently racist. Could you say that it's because of how they were raised? How many people of African descent were there in Austria-Hungary in the 1890s? I also know that there were none in rural County Mayo, Ireland in the 1930s. Is it just easiest to denote "Other-ness" by using the most visually verifiable descriptors? All I know is, I was raised in this environment as was my wife and neither of us feel compelled to remark on the ethnicity of a person unless it is relevant to the story.

I did not read the whole thread but several commenters have broached the issue of assimilation. It should not be a subject of debate that the most successful immigrants have been the ones that assimilated most quickly. And this should not be used as a cudgel to beat "white" American culture with. Assimilation means that immigrants learn the ropes and share the best of what they brought with them to make us all a better culture. Someone pointed out that blacks have been here longer than any other minority group so assimilation does not apply. To be sure, blacks have contributed a huge amount of what is best about them to American culture but are now in the thrall of a power-hungry group whose very strength derives from convincing blacks that they will never succeed unless the government helps them. Any who have broken free of this system and achieved through their own hard work, just as other minority, and more accurately termed, immigrant groups, have done, are castigated as Uncle Tom and race traitors.

Having said all that, I stand against the idea that America will be split along ethnic lines at any time in the next 100 years. UNLESS the multi-culti PC powers that be succeed in eliminating every and all impetus for assimilation in the first place. In that case, we will have large concentrations of un-assimilated immigrants who will change the culture locally. We are seeing in Europe how large these local enclaves need to be befofre trouble starts. But when you all start shaving off parts of your own countries to accommodate your large unassimilated immigrants communities, then you can start speculating on the future dismemberment of the USA.

Michael said...

Knickerblogger,

If you care about the position on the "color wheel" of the average American's skin, then you ARE a racist. If you think it will stop being America when most Americans are not white, then you ARE a racist. The reason people are still trying to get here as they have been for over 200 years since the founding fathers is testimony to the strength of the system they created, not to the concentration of "white" in the blood of Americans.

Fjordman's admittedly extreme example of replacing 300 million Americans with 300 million Zulus is ludicrous. Substitute the names of any two ethnic groups in that example and what he says will be true. But give 300 million immigrants time and opportunity to assimilate into American society, and they will.

It's people like you that LGF is on about. I would not want to live in your America. Thanks God it doesn't exist.

O, and I'm sure Gordon is not describing ALL of the founding father's ideas as 'mistaken'. Try having an honest debate for a change.

And Sodra, if believing in the strength of the founding ideals of this country make ME a Leftist, then YOU are so far to the Right that it is no wonder you all hate LGF for questioning VB.

The KnickerBlogger said...

Gordon wrote "The model of the United States, despite the periodic eruptions of ignorant nativist "know-nothing"-ism here (which, you notice, never lasts and never becomes the majority opinion), is one of assimilation."

Actually Gordon it culimated in the 1924 immigration restriction act, which was supported by an overwelming majority of the people and only opposed by groups like the ADL who, forty years later had it deceptively overturned (the 1965 'reform' act, which was ONLY going to bring in 3000 families a year) which has led to the current problems today, but hey, don't let facts get in the way things, oh and don't forget to call me ignorant racist anti semite, whatever, its about the only ammo you have left.

No, really I am curious how does being a 'nativist' 'know nothing' make you ignorant. Lets say an Anglo Saxon like me wants to preserve our Anglo Saxon core and I don't want, say Britian to become an Anglo-Saxon minority. How does that make me ignorant? does the same thing apply to Israel supporters?

marginalizedactiondinosaur said...

Never mind exchanging 300 million Zulus Fjordman, if socialists are so intent on changing the country through demography why do they not just move to diverse utopias like, Timor, Palestine, Yugoslavia or holland, or Zimbabwe?

Then those who are left wouldn't have the hassle. Why move the mountain when you can move to the mountain eh.

I think in Canada it would be worth paying every ivory tower type who thinks that 10,000 to leave.

I don't know about all the countries you mention but in Canada most want immigration rates cut.

Plus the great depression happened just after north americas largest waves of immigration and that was at least people who looked the same.

When the next one comes I fear it will be worse.

Michael said...

Knickerblogger,

How long is too long to wait to restore the ethnic majority? Because if there is no time limit, I'll join the cause of wiping England off the map and restoring Prydein to the Cymri.

England stops being England when most residents don't consider themselves English. I will grant you that and good luck with it.

The point is that America will not stop being America because your Anglo-Saxon ancestors made the stupid mistake of letting in all those Krauts and Micks, who let in all those Itralians and Polacks, who let in all those etc, etc.

The KnickerBlogger said...

Michael wrote "If you care about the position on the "color wheel" of the average American's skin, then you ARE a racist. If you think it will stop being America when most Americans are not white, then you ARE a racist.

Michael, I really couldn't care less what names you call me. I am not even going to bother to respond , except to say this little statement:
Substitute the names of any two ethnic groups in that example and what he says will be true. But give 300 million immigrants time and opportunity to assimilate into American society, and they will. shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Lets start off by first saying you assume all immigrants are equal. They are not. 300 million immigrants from africa with an average iq of 75 or would not assimulate as fast as 300 million dutch men with an iq of 105...Not all human beings, immigrants or cultures or people from different cultures are the same - not to mention these days we have welfare systems in place that serve as prime motivations to immigrate - as is the case in Europe.

but it disturbs me you would even chose such a number? one of the main problems with neocon mass immigration is they have no perception or they simply don't care- that our land to population ratio is one of the key reasons for our high standard of living - and why for example states overwhelmed by immigrants - like California have the least affordable homes. Don't want to live my America? Pack your things and go.

The KnickerBlogger said...

The point is that America will not stop being America because your Anglo-Saxon ancestors made the stupid mistake of letting in all those Krauts and Micks, who let in all those Itralians and Polacks, who let in all those etc, etc.
So a Muslim majority America would be just the same? Yanks just like me. Pathetically out of touch with reality.
and if it means the displacement of their offspring, you bet that's patent insanity.
"one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs."

Michael said...

I have been reading and enjoying GoV for a long time. It really disturbed me that this Velaams Belang thing was splitting up two groups that have been (and still are) on the same side of the Islamic Fascism problem. One side says CJ has fallen for "Leftist" psyops. (I just got lumped in with Leftists here for the first time in my life so I'm going to take that with a 40 lb bag of salt). The other side says GoV risks complicating the task by welcoming any and all potential allies. I'm still not convinced of that but what I have read just in this comment thread is giving me the willies. The racial arrogance of these commenters is creepy. Do the Baron and Dymphna agree with you, or just tolerate you because you are on their side? Either way, I think I'm with Charles. We need to win the Long War, but if we can't do it without the jackboots, then it's Noah's Flood all over again.

The KnickerBlogger said...

oh heck maybe I will...
Micheal wrote "If you care about the position on the "color wheel" of the average American's skin, then you ARE a racist. "

So, I am an Anglo-Saxon, so if I am concerned that Anglo Saxons, oh heck Nordic/North Europeans in America will breed themselves out of existance through intermarriage and our genetic features will thus disappear (since many are recessive) that's the 'new' definition of racist?

Funny whites can devote their lives to saving obscure species of finches and salamanders but are not 'allowed' by pc jobworths like you, to even state they want to preserve themselves. I wonder how you and the other pc ninnies are going 'enforce' this ? Will dating preferences on match.com become illegal like roommate preferences now?

The KnickerBlogger said...

Michael wrote
The racial arrogance of these commenters is creepy."


Got any real response beyond name calling? Didn't think so. Explain how it is racial arrogance. I am simply want to preserve my own homeland (and for the record book, yes red indians and black americans descended from slaves are part of that homeland) I don't want to conquer, dominate, other races or countries, I simply don't want my own people to become a minority in my own land. How is that racial arrogance???

Michael said...

I simply don't want my own people to become a minority in my own land. How is that racial arrogance???

If "my own people" does not return the same character string as "my own land" then you have proven my charge.
Your own people should be ALL Americans and this is the only country in the world that you can say this about.

What I want is for immigrants to assimilate and be American like me. What you want is for all of us non-Anglos to remember that this is your damn country, by God.

Again, like Sodra, you are so far to the Right that you think I am a pc lefty. I am a Reagan Republican, not a neocon or whatever other crypto-antisemitic epithet you want to use.

I want LEGAL immigration and incentives to assimilate, NOT pc multi-culty coddling.

Charlemagne said...

Michael did you happen to read my 'Post America, America' blog from my earlier post? I consider myself a Reagan conservative, having come of age in the 80's and voting for him for the first time in 1984, but seem to differ with you somewhat on this issue.

The KnickerBlogger said...

What I want is for immigrants to assimilate and be American like me. What you want is for all of us non-Anglos to remember that this is your damn country, by God.
I find it funny that you can't respond to what i have said, but rather, you have to put words in my mouth and than triumphantly proclaim your moral superiority.

Try responding to what i actually said for a change, rather than name call as you have repeatedly done. Yeah, we 'get it' michael, you think i am an antisemite, racist, bigot, ect. Most people, I imagine, really don't care about your brilliant assessment of my character of me anymore than they care what sort of underwear I am wearing. Try responding and discussing the facts in a coherent manner...which leads me to my next point:
If "my own people" does not return the same character string as "my own land" then you have proven my charge.
Your own people should be ALL Americans and this is the only country in the world that you can say this about.

I am not terribly picky about grammar, and such on blogs, but can you try putting this in, well, English? I THINK you're trying to say that we're the only country that is a proposition nation, and of course the PC bureaucrats in Europe are trying to turn all nations into that, and, what a surprise! they now have levels of rape and violence greater than the US.

In any event the idea that we are a proposition nation has never been mandated only imposed on us.

The KnickerBlogger said...

Your own people should be ALL Americans and this is the only country in the world that you can say this about.
So an Englishman can say this and its not racist (trying telling the English this that - it is defacto illegal to say in England now) or a Frenchman (whoops! same problem) or someone in Belgium - well this blog knows all too well about that. But here and only here, its racist. And someone who speaks in broken English is just as AMerican as me whose ancestors fought in the Revolution and Civil war? Sure they can have reverence for our heritage, as I have reference say for the Spanish of the Reconquista (in spain, not here :) ) but does that make me just as Spanish as a Spanaird?

As with most of your posts this doesn't pass the reality test. Nations are much more than abstract concepts of law or principle. As the posts above point out and Putnam's study (see a few posts up) our little 'experiment' is failing beyond our worst expectations and will only get worse.

how do you propose to I want LEGAL immigration and incentives to assimilate, NOT pc multi-culty coddling this? If as you and Gordon claim everyone was coming here because, gulp they wanted to be red blooded Americans just like me, then why do we even have any problems to begin with?

Tell me, without name calling, in your own words, specifically who instigates all the lawsuits against a well over thousand year old anglo saxon tradition - Christmas (celebrated in other Christian countries, but I refer to our specific traditions)- how is it within a few short decades after the 1965 immigration 'reform' act that we fear to say what our ancestors said for generations 'merry Christmas" in your own words Michael, without name calling: specifically who initiates these lawsuits?

PRCalDude said...

The racial arrogance of these commenters is creepy. Do the Baron and Dymphna agree with you, or just tolerate you because you are on their side? Either way, I think I'm with Charles. We need to win the Long War, but if we can't do it without the jackboots, then it's Noah's Flood all over again.

I don't think you're seeing racial arrogance. I think you're seeing white people on this blog beginning to realize that they're expected to live by a different standard than everyone else with regards to issues of race, namely, that whites must practice colorblindness and anti-racism, while all other ethnicities that live in the Western world are allowed to unabashedly promote their own interests. Many are also accutely aware that they are faced with the prospect of becoming minorities in their own country very soon because of immigration policies enacted by their elites, while meanwhile the new majority will not be expected to give up its ethnocentrism (I'm thinking of the Mexicans, in the case of teh USA).

I'm not quite sure how anyone could object to this when seen through its proper framework.

Michael said...

I find it funny that you can't respond to what i have said

I was going to say the same to you. Still waiting for your advice on whether to send my contribution in money and arms to "Sassana back to Saxony".

We ARE speaking different languages because, if you think YOU are being clear you're wrong. The next thing will, no doubt, be your statement that this proves I am an idiot. This is the treatment I get from my Socialist adversaries on other blogs.

As to the USA being a proposition nation, I have no clue what this means to you. What it means to me is the same as it meant to Abraham Lincoln when he said:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Sodra Djavul said...

Michael,
Invoking a wartime President waging war on his own American people (Lincoln), does nothing to change my position.

Lincoln was not a great President in my opinion, and I don't look to him for any form of moral guidance.

That comes straight from George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and any other signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Invoke Lincoln all you wish for your moral compass. Lincoln caused the deaths of half a million uniformed American soldiers and untold numbers of American civilian casualties. Why? Taxes. Read up on it.

- Sodra

Epaminondas said...

"Many Americans seem to believe it’s all about the Constitution"

I never thought I would think of fjordman as a utterly, incomprehensibly, galactically, dead wrong.

It's either men or laws, dude.

I choose the Constitution.

Too bad fjordman apparently has no appreciation for the basis of the constitution as a document which pits human WEAKNESS against human weakness.

I note his lack of sources as well.

I really never thought I'd say this. It's a CCC 'sentimental' rant masquerading as informed cynicism about the 'crashing' american dream (which couldn't really exists because minorities really can't get along in the end?).

Apparently this schism has some real positive value after all.

His arguments are PRECISELY those of some folks across voter registration tables near Lynchburg and Wytheville in 1966, who seemed upset that some folks not like them might now be exercising political power.

Fjordman is making the arguments of those attempting to intimidate americans who wanted to vote.

Maybe if I watch that Kirk Douglas, Tony Curtis, Janet Leigh, Ernest Borgnine TRULY great movie of 1958, I'll vote white in order to defend the culture, and if that doesn't work ...

Another chisel width driven into what is now clearly soft pine, and not granite.

WOW.
Really.
WOW
5 SD's to the right of RR and still sailing off.

I actually am shocked.
Very sad.