But, in his defense, if you were a Jew in Europe, wouldn’t you be monomaniacal about anti-Semitism in Europe right now? The other night at the PJMedia event I had a brief discussion with Nidra Poller about anti-Semitism in France. She, like many other Jews in France, is worried about it.
Our Danish commenters, however, have been arguing vigorously that Denmark is different. The irrepressibly optimistic Phanarath, in particular, has been adamant about Denmark’s tolerance towards and defense of the Jews.
But last night, in a comment on an unrelated thread, he directed a sobering reassessment of the situation to Zerosumgame:
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It is getting harder to be a Jew also in Denmark now. Well, it seems to have been for awhile, but I didn’t realise before.
I read about it here almost a week ago. It talks about how much Jews have, for centuries, been appreciated in Denmark for their contributions in all fields of society. But now they cannot walk safely in the streets. It seems time has been turned back to WW2. “Det Mosaiske Troessamfund” Jewish faith community has had to hire an unknown number of security people for the purpose of keeping Jews in Denmark safe.
It also says that we are a new generation of Danish men ready to defend the Jews as we have before.
I am angry and shamed by this. I thought you should hear it from me, since I was so persistent in denying that this was taking place here. If we are unable to defend our Jewish citizens, then we deserve all the things you have been saying about us.
The story originated in B.T., but all of the information is in Danish.
Zerosumgame’s advice to Phanarath? Get out of Europe while the getting is good. Bring yourself and your family to the Anglosphere, where your talents and energy will be welcomed.
He quotes Nelson Ascher: “Anti-Semitism is the tool that the Islamofascists have given Europe to allow it to commit suicide”
29 comments:
Get out of Europe while the getting is good. Bring yourself and your family to the Anglosphere, where your talents and energy will be welcomed.
I strongly oppose that stance. Running away will only postpone the problem. And to the 'Anglosphere' ? - Pah !
Look at Britain. Even France can't compete with the dhimmitude of Londonistan.
Look at the good ol' US of A. The president's "religion of peace and tolerance", Foggy Bottom's smirking of its "allies" like Saudi Barbaria, Pakistan, Egypt and Turkey, "The war on Terror" (a war on tactics ???) and illusions of democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan, its MSM - where not a single paper dared to print some lame cartoons, its constant caving to CAIR etc., etc.... The list goes on and on. And imagine the next administration with people like Dhimmi Carter, Kelly, Bill - or Hillary - Clinton.... Good grief.
In the entire "anglosphere" only Australia seems to have a pair.
I have a better - and more manly - suggestion : come over here and help us stop barbary at the front door.
kepiblanc,
I agree completely. Cept we in the US have a growing POV problem. I think the lack of evidence from Denmark and the rest of the EU that you want to be defended is alarming. Where are the burning mosques and the dead imams? Either religious tolerance = suicide, or not.
And, we've got a lot more territory over here to defend.
The ever-more obvious capitulation over there, just makes US more isolationist.
Our soft approach to this threat means that the advice to Jews to come over here is the wisest choice, from a last man standing POV.
Most of you don't have guns. And, your authorities will be shooting you first, not the "enemy."
However, I surely do wish you well in your role as a patriot.
Phanarath,
The "fall" will be like watching Monday Night Football. How many carbeques in how many countries tonight? When does car burning deserve the shoot-on-sight order? Which of course, will cause more rioting by the youts.
Hence, the only way to keep score and determine who's winning will be the large scale killing of Muslims.
Pay us now, or pay us later.
Baron:
First of all, thank you for letting this topic stand on its own as a thread.
I don't think my bringing up anti-Semitism in Europe is any more a monomania than your always bringing up multiculturalism (except of course, it's your blog so you get the right to post what you want when you want).
Again, I want to stress that I differ with Fjordman and you as to the real "cultural AIDS" or "trojan horse" that brought Islamofascism to Europe and allowed it to incubate.
This really began with the PLO. Terrorism was allowed to grow since the 1960s in Europe (while the Islamic population was much smaller) because Europeans saw no problem with terrorism aimed at killing lowly Jews. The Muslim world knew this, and Europe did nothing, or even approved, as Islamonazis built up their terror network, all the while, Europeans largely thinking that it was all to finish off "those people" that Hitler should have finished off in 1944, or the Arabs should have finished off in 1948, or in 1973 (when Europe banned overflights of US arms to Israel, in the clear hope that the Jews would be annihilated once and for all).
By the time that native Islamic populations became large enough to cause trouble in Europe (in the late '90s), the Islamonazi terror network had exploited 30 years of European anti-semitism to build its terror network, before "multiculturalism" became an important enough factor for them to even start invoking.
Thus, multiculturalism may be shielding the Muslims now, but it was not the nutrient medium of the original petri dish in which this extremism grew in Europe.
Anti-semitism was the original growth medium.
Zerosumgame,
I appreciate your very keen insights. Standing outside, as we must (not allowed, by treaty, from helping you overthrow your governments), we will have to watch your struggle. Your country will not be alone. The ummah numbers in the hundreds of millions; maybe the high end.
It occurs to me that the absolute fastest way to stop this parasitic virus we've found ourselves infected with, is starvation.
IOW, 30 days max for the ME, and the rest of the Islamic arc, from start to finish. Western independence from OPEC oil, antiOPEC if you will, can get the smart oil producers in line, and starve Islamic oil. Ask Hugo's Citgo. Demonstrating this "independence" and committing to ever greater independence and efficiencies, initiates the start of the famine. Before we fire another shot.
Choosing sides get ever-more important, from a survival POV.
Zero --
What you say is probably true about Europe, but it's not true about the U.S.A. All that multi-culti crap we've had to endure for the last 30 or 40 years -- what has allowed the Jihad to come in the back door -- didn't piggyback in on anti-Semitism, it came in with Leftism.
Recent commenters (I can't remember who) have traced it back to Gramsci, and I think they're right.
Phanarath,
Sorry for the poor use of idiom as analogy. We over here, by treaty, cannot "assist" you in the overthrow of an allied nationstate.
Jeeeeeez, you folks over there, make it ever more difficult to save you. We'll be forced to watch the engagements 24/7, while dealing with 6-12 million of the same profile, over here, with no expectation of any help, from over there.
And remember, I'm on your side.
"I send greetings to the many Muslims observing Ramadan in America and around the world.
Ramadan is the holiest time of the Muslim year and an important holiday when Muslims take time for prayer, fasting, and personal sacrifice. According to Islamic teachings, this month represents when God delivered His word to the prophet Muhammad in the form of the Qur'an. Ramadan is also an opportunity to gather with friends and family and show thanks for God's blessings through works of charity.
Ramadan and the upcoming holiday seasons are a good time to remember the common values that bind us together. Our society is enriched by our Muslim citizens whose commitment to faith reminds us of the gift of religious freedom in our country.
Laura and I send our best wishes for a blessed Ramadan. Ramadan Mubarak." - GEORGE W. BUSH
And you want us to come over there ???
Animated 90 second map of 5000 year history of conquerors of the Middle East and surrounding areas. Pretty awesome to watch. Thought of you, Baron & Bloody Borders when I saw it!
kepiblanc
I have a better - and more manly - suggestion : come over here and help us stop barbary at the front door.
When our nation was only 25 years old, Stephen Decatur and the Marines were standing up to the Barabary Islamofascists in Tripoli while Europe was too busy paying tribute and letting its people be kidnapped.
Some things never change.
I don't agree with Zero in his assessment of how terrorism was tolerated in Europe. We've had home-grown terrorism in most of western europe for decades from various groups, leftw ing, anarchist or just trying to scare people in to giving their little spit of land independence. Perhaps the self-styled elites tolerated PLO terrorism because it was aimed at Israel, but the general population have tolerated it because they're used to it. We've been blowing each other up since the 50s, and our various wars were just larger scale and more organised versions of the same. The proof of it is that most people killed by terrorism within europe weren't jews. Terrorism within europe wasn't aimed at jews, and wasn't blamed on them either in case you were wondering. It's a horrible indictment of the european mindset, to be so completely immune to the horror of terrorism, but you mustn't dismiss it because of that. Simply put, we're calloused by centuries of war. And though I realise that the jes have been persecuted, in a larger sense it's all part of those same centuries of war that have so ripped the soul out of europe.
Arrogant, mercenary, decadent and wishing to hide away from the brutal realities of life, the nations that make up this continent are simply tired of war and want to pretend that it isn't happening and, given our history, can you really blame us for that?
In other words, never attribute to malice that which can be explained by laziness and fear.
Finally, remember where the threat to the jews is coming from in europe. It isn't europeans. The so-called elites of europe, those champagne socialists, condemn the jews in the same breath with which they natter on about multiculturalism and pluralism but they are not the majority. The majority don't know, or don't want to know for the reasons I've outlined above but they are more likely to react against muslims than they are against jews. You only hear abotu the jew hatred because that's what those talking heads want you to hear. It gives them an opportunity to bemoan people for their "obviously" widespread xenophobia, and at the same time it fits in to their world view, that most people must hate the jew because they do.
Never trust the media. And remember, a nation tired of war will expend an innordinate amount of time trying to pretend the next one isn't coming.
Could someone translate an excerpt from the article itself? The part about "new generation of Danish men" sounds fairly positive.
Zerosumgame --
I'm perfectly aware of the Tripoli incident, including the song of the US Marine Corps. But if we're going to poke eachother's heads with history, like the Frenchmen fighting for your independence we will get nowhere in the battle against Islam.
My point is that from my POV you're in a greater danger in the US then we are. By constantly caving in to the Muslims and turning the blind eye to the innards of that ideology you just encourage them to further demands and terror. They detest weakness. Like when some Koranimal enters a Jewish library and kills a pregnant woman and the US Police claims that it has nothing to do with Islam.
Your angst of 'racial profiling' will kill you. You invite 15,000 Saudi 'students' into you country, you invite some terrorist thug-in-chief to lecture at your finest university, you intend to let some Barbaristan run your main harbours, you let CAIR edit your newspapers and TV. Some - not so fine - day you'll wake up and wonder how New York City suddenly turned into a glassy parking lot. And the anwer will be : "It was full of Joooooos".
At least Europeans know the enemy and call him by his proper name : ISLAM. And we have - as opposed to you
- political leaders who dare speak up. May I mention my own PM, Mr. Anders Fogh Rasmussen and the German chancellor, Mrs. Angela Merkel - amongst others ?
I wonder what you would say if you had the chance to read some of our MSM like Le Figaro, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Die Welt or Jyllands-Posten. Especially letters to editors. Compared to your own dhimmi-papers.
As we say over here : "Don't throw stones if you live in a house of glass yourself".
G'night.
Archonix:
Ah, I knew we'd have our duel eventually....
Finally, remember where the threat to the jews is coming from in europe. It isn't europeans. The so-called elites of europe, those champagne socialists, condemn the jews in the same breath with which they natter on about multiculturalism and pluralism but they are not the majority.
I have been pointing out that the hatred is strongest among the elites. But it is not confined to them.
The majority don't know, or don't want to know for the reasons I've outlined above but they are more likely to react against muslims than they are against jews.
If that is so, why are all the demonstrations in Europe against Israel and the Jews? Where are the protests against Islamic terrorism and for Israel's right to exist (other than the ones that only Jews attend). And I'm not just talking about the Islamofascists attending. Perfectly mainstream (for Europe, anyway) Socialists are active in the efforts to demonize the Jews for defending themselves.
You only hear abotu the jew hatred because that's what those talking heads want you to hear.
That is pure BS. The elites in Europe sweep it under the rug. Remember how they tried to shelve an EU report on anti-Semitism, because it blamed Muslims? Then when they did release it, they clumsily rewrote the conclusion to blame all the crime on Neo-Nazis, even though it contradicted the body of the report. The attacks on Jews in Europe, Belgium and increasingly the UK get little or no press coverage. Europeans are more concerned with keeping Muslims from being offended than in saving Jews.
It gives them an opportunity to bemoan people for their "obviously" widespread xenophobia, and at the same time it fits in to their world view, that most people must hate the jew because they do.
The elites use Islamophobia as a way to tar people for xenophobia. The elites see anti-Semitism as justified, because the evil Joooos oppress the poor Palestinians, whose reasonable goal is to exterminate the Jews. How dare those evil Jews stop the poor oppressed Palestinians from killing them?
Never trust the media.
Agreed. Few people hate the media as much as I do.
And remember, a nation tired of war will expend an innordinate amount of time trying to pretend the next one isn't coming.
And when it does come, take three guesses who the Europeans will blame for it?
Kepiblanc
All I can say is that if you think Europe is more ready to fight Islamofascism than America, you are in the minority.
On both sides of the Atlantic.
Snaphanen has two interesting posts on this topic and I have translated them both here on my own blog.
http://jrc-1139.blogspot.com/2006/09/politken.html
I am Danish, and also half Jewish. I see evidence of rising anti Jewish hatred every where in Scandinavia and the culprits are Muslims.
I have never seen or heard any one in Denmark speek ill of Jews without they were either a Muslim or a socialist sycophant ranting about Israel.
While I can only commend the author of this "we will defend" line, I would feel uncomfortable on the receiving end of it. If Jews are seen as standing behind Danish backs for protection rather then shoulder-to-shoulder with them against any threat, it is either a perception problem, or a moral problem. By all acounts it is time for Danish Jews to declare their unconditional suport for Danish monarchy, Danish sovereignity and Danish values.
As far as other Europeans go, I this Australian "values debate" is an invitation. Not only to Jews (they still have Israel), but to indigenous population of Netherland, France, Sweden etc running from European flavour of multi-culturalism.
Kepiblanc,
You are right about Australia. Looks like our Government started to address the problem.
It doesn't need to be very good, it would be enough to be better then others.
As far as "get out" goes, I think it is absolutely right about any European country except Denmark. I think it would be absolutely unacceptable for a Jew to run from Denmark. It is practically the only European country unquestionably entitled to loyalty of its Jewish citizens. Join Army Reserve if you have it there, donate your time to a political party standing for Denmark, oppose loony Socialists everywhere...
Gaaaah
Zero is at 30 degrees from reality as usual. Denmark and Danes have nada, zip, zero to do with antisemitism. The entire phenom is associated with Islamoid immigrants who happen to be in Denmark. Or France for that matter, how many anti-semitic incidents in France can be traced to native French vs immigrants?
Its barely more sensible than claiming Seattle is increasingly anti-semitic cause that one Paki immigrant ran amok there a few months ago.
Speaking of Gramsci, you do realise that the reduction of the entire history of the world to anti-semitism is also a product of the Frankfurt school that gave us cultural marxism? After WWII, while Marcuse worked on cool things like "repressive tolerance", Horkheimer expanded German guilt to European guilt and recast most of history as a reflection of anti-semitism, just some university faculties now teach history as a shadow of blackness or feminism. Smile Zero, you're high on marxist propaganda, after all its the evil western civiliation that is at root guilty of anti-semitism, I guess it'll just have to go, right? (of course the US is very firmly a part of european civilization or vice versa, but that obviously does not bother people like Zero who fit the facts to their paranoia not vice-versa)
And hey, Zero, you really positively need to be (or can't avoid being) Jewish? Theres a whole country been set up for that, its called Israel. They can and have defended themselves by force of arms rather than hoping to be defended by others. You should try it.
I think looking to the future, America will indeed be the safest place for the Jews - certainly not entirely safe, but there is much less danger of genocide being allowed to take place in the USA than in the EU. The safest remaining places on Earth will be small rural Anglo towns in places like Texas, and it is notable that people who truly have an idea of the future, like the old hippy visionary Michael Moorcock (famous as a native of Ladbroke Grove, central London), are relocating to such places.
fellow peacekeeper:
Zero is at 30 degrees from reality as usual. Denmark and Danes have nada, zip, zero to do with antisemitism. The entire phenom is associated with Islamoid immigrants who happen to be in Denmark. Or France for that matter, how many anti-semitic incidents in France can be traced to native French vs immigrants?
The Muslims may commit the crimes, but the native Danish (or French or Dutch or Belgian) police do little to investigate it or arrest the criminals, and the native Danish (or French or Dutch or Belgian) media cover up the crimes.
They are complicit in this hate by doing and saying nothing; it shows their implicit support for allowing the Islamofascists to get rid of Jews.
Its barely more sensible than claiming Seattle is increasingly anti-semitic cause that one Paki immigrant ran amok there a few months ago.
That was one incident. Each European country has had dozens, or in France and Britain, hundreds of violent attacks on Jews and still the authorities do nothing. Muzzies commit the crimes, but again, by consistently doing nothing, the native population shows its support for attacking Jews.
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peacekeeper:
Smile Zero, you're high on marxist propaganda, after all its the evil western civiliation that is at root guilty of anti-semitism, I guess it'll just have to go, right? (of course the US is very firmly a part of european civilization or vice versa, but that obviously does not bother people like Zero who fit the facts to their paranoia not vice-versa)
And hey, Zero, you really positively need to be (or can't avoid being) Jewish? Theres a whole country been set up for that, its called Israel. They can and have defended themselves by force of arms rather than hoping to be defended by others. You should try it.
I think with views like that, you might want to post at antiwar.com, Commondreams, Rense, al-Awda, or Electronic Intifadah.
Peacekeeper:
You're posting from Latvia? It figures.
A nation that rivalled Nazi Germany and Austria in its hatred of Jews.
The Muslims may commit the crimes, but the native Danish (or French or Dutch or Belgian) police do little to investigate it or arrest the criminals, and the native Danish (or French or Dutch or Belgian) media cover up the crimes. Thats correct, but follow Brussels Journal (Belguim) and Fjordman (Norway) and one finds that the non-arrest and non-reporting is present for all muslim crimes against the indigenous population as well. To be fair without a detailed statistical breakdown its impossible to determine whether muslim v jewish crime is more underreported than muslim v white/native/christian crime (or muslim v muslim crime for that matter). But you have mentioned a handfull of countries in the EU, what about Spain, Portugaul, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Germany etc? Since when has France the UK and Belguim been more than a quarter of Europe? I also completely missed evidence of non-investigation by Danish police?
"...the native population shows its support for attacking Jews"
Zero, pick one please, is it the native population, or the elites, or the media? You seem to blame all three at various points.
I think with views like that, you might want to post at antiwar.com, Commondreams, Rense, al-Awda, or Electronic Intifadah.
O_o
Really, do they also advocate for defence of Israel? Or criticise tryhards who talk but won't walk?
You're posting from Latvia? It figures.
Is that meant to be racism, prejudice, stereotyping or just innuendo thereof?
And your argument, that muslims are being imported into Europe for the primary reason that this advances anti-semitism is not only laughable, but outright ludicrous.
Yes, they're being imported against the wishes of the majority in order to destabilise society (permmanent revolution taken to its logical conclusion) and create a voter base for the loony left. The fact that they the jews is just an added bonus for those people. IT IS NOT, I repeat, NOT the wishes of the peoples of this continent to have these mass-murderers living here. However the majority are also yet to learn that their trust in the state, something they've held for a long time, is an ill-founded trust.
People like you condemn people for making a mistake and, in doing so, prevent them from learning from it.
The overwhelming European support for the cause of Palestinian nationalism is proof that the Euros have found a way to finish the Holocause by other means.
As is true with the Muslims, obviously, there are good Europeans. However, as is also true of the Muslims, the good Euros are not represented in their governments. Other than Berlusconi and Aznar (who were both thrown out by the dhimmi electorates) and Merkel, there are no leaders in Europe which will oppose the Palestinian cause, which if you read the charters of both Hamas and Fatah, is the obliteration of the state of Israel.
And, that is genocide.
Americans are childish, arrogant and stupid!
Europeans are dhimmified, left-wingers and pacifists!
Muslims are peaceloving, devoutly religious and an oppressed minority!
Jews are behind all evils in the world today!
Men are evil!
Women are scheming!
Children are annoying!
I'm being sarcastic, and prejudiced!
Did I miss anything or anybody! Generalizations can be used to prove a point, but when they become "the truth" or your agenda they just become meaningless, because the reality is very different, there is many more shades than you'll see from afar.
Zero... you are committing the same mistake as many Danes and Europeans are doing when they get news about say America, through their own media, who are mainly using "New York Times" as their source, and not even telling that there is different opinions than what the NYT (or sometimes the WaPo) tells. And in this instance you're basing your whole argument about Denmark and the Danish Media on what was written in Politiken (A totally Dhimmified and on it's way to become totally discredited as a trustworthy newssource, with a chief editor who is very much like Walter Duranty on the Ukrainian famine).
Reality is much hard to know at a distance and without the proper background, which is why your remarks and points about Europe is often criticised because they are missing the target by miles.
Sorry I missed the pets, but I dare not criticize them for fear of revenge from PETA!
Phanarath,
It is not about the question of who asks what, it is about how you present your position. It is not about who is wrong - we all know who is wrong. It is about how to present the opposing view, how to do it better then we did before.
You can oppose anti-Semitism, or you can pro-actively promote historical national values, or you can think of some other slogan that would be more effective. While you will be opposing the same force, the outcome may be different.
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