Friday, September 08, 2006

The Danish Face in the NATO Picture

In a previous post, one which dealt with General Abizaid’s visit to the Middle East in July, there was a briefing in Kabul. There, the General was informed about a request for a U.S. military police battalion. Soldier-like, the Genral responded: “Bulls---! The alliance needs to start acting like an alliance.” He wants the NATO team to “have more than an American and British face.”

Hmm…some big ears in Denmark must have been listening.

Jægerkorpset logoIn what has been termed a “Commandogram from Denmark”, Danish special forces at home have requested to be sent to Afghanistan to support their fellow-soldiers currently serving as part of the NATO alliance which has taken over counter-terrorism efforts in that country.

Thus, at the behest of the men themselves, Denmark is sending a team of its Jægerkorpset (JGK) commandos to Afghanistan. Danish troops there as part of the NATO alliance already number about three hundred strong. Recently they have come under heavy fire from the local Taliban. The seventy or so commandos will take on the local terrorists to protect the Danes' position.

The Taliban are fighting a war of attrition. They figure if they can kill enough NATO troops, that like the Russians, the NATO alliance will cave. While that’s not going to happen, counter-terrorism duty is tough. The Danish base has been attacked over fifty times this season (the Taliban hole up for the winter) and eight soldiers have been wounded. So the Jægerkorpset figures it will set things straight:

The Danish special forces have been in Afghanistan before, as have those from most nations in the world that have special operations troops. Apparently the Jægerkorpset convinced their superiors that a few Danish commandos, with some knowledge of operating in Afghanistan, could go in and clean out the local Taliban forces that are attacking the Danish troops.

The JGK is a tough group, as are all special forces teams. Here’s how they are chosen, a process that begins with self-selection:

Jægerkorpset commando
The selection course to becoming a Jægersoldat (a member of Jægerkorpset) is extremely difficult. For a trooper to be accepted into the course, he must complete a shortened Patruljekursus (“Patrol Course”) of eight days in length, instead of the original eight weeks. He also has to be at least a Sergeant. The course focuses primarily on navigation and orientation skills. If this course is passed with a grade of “very satisfactory” (equal to 4 on a 1-5 scale), the applicant can then proceed to the Patrol Course. The Patrol Course lasts eight weeks; only if it is completed with the grade of “very satisfactory” can the applicant be part of the Aspirantkursus (“Aspirant Course”). If this is completed the applicant is considered “one of the family”, and placed on a “tryout” period of 11/2 years.

As a rule of thumb, only one or two out of each 100 applicants to the Patrol Course become members of the Corps.

As the Strategy Page noted —

The Jægerkorpset troops will have the benefit of American special forces in the area, who probably already have a good idea of which tribal groups are responsible for the attacks. The Jægerkorpset troops will have to go in and do some scouting, to identify exactly who is carrying out they attacks. At that point, the Jægerkorpset will probably ambush the Taliban and kill or capture them. Any who get away will most likely advise their friends that Danish troops be removed from the Taliban hit list.

The JGK has served in Afghanistan before, so they won’t need much help. Once they’re up to speed on the local situation, the Danish troops will be safer.

And the multi-faceted portrait of the NATO alliance which General Abizaid wants to see will bear strong Danish features.

38 comments:

Profitsbeard said...

We in the West were not and are not serious about opposing the root problem, in places like Afghanistan, et al, since our political leadership has allowed this defeated and reconstitutued government apparatus to install Sharia Law as their national guide, thus rendering the entire ousting of the Taliban a Tragic Farce.

One wherein we are made the butt of our own unintentional joke:

-fight terrorism, but not the Cause of the Terror.

The Koran.

The true generator of terrorism and terrorists.

Sending 300 (or 3,000) more Danes into a country pre-doomed to Islamic chaos and endless jihadist "insurgency" warfare... against "Crusader infidels"... all because we did not have the enlightened self-interest / survival sense to install a U.S. (or even U.N.) style Bill of Rights and secular Constitution, reduces the Danish commandos' valor and risk of death to a grandiose, irrelevant training exercise.

And ultimately addresses nothing, and wins nothing in this undeclared, undefined, generally unconscious World War.

Paltry numbers and incoherent battle ideas lead into an absurd impasse that disheartens and demoralizes the troops and the citizenry as it diffuses the white hot intent of 9/12/01.

The answer?

Islamic Law must be relegated to the dustbin of history.

The rest of our 'fight' is "sound and fury signifying nothing" until this central attack is begun.

We must defang the dogma, and drain the venom from the Muslim 'bible', or the rest of the effort is doomed to dueling with mocking shadows and not the hooded and deadly viper of the Koran itself.

Phanarath said...

I dont know if Nato being in Afganistan is doing any good in the bigger picture.

But the danes that are there now wasnt prepared for the fighting they ran into. As far as I have heard the base was/is being attacked several times every day. I am not saying that they cant handle themselves, just that it wasnt the mission they thought it would be. From what I have heard, it was considered a "police-mission" , but maybe the Taliban thinks they can preasure out a weak link in ther Natochain.

In the smaller picture, its definetly great that JGK is going. They can make it posible for the troops allready there to do what they where sent to do, to clean out opiumfields and create day to day security. Its logical that JGK should go since their training is ment for situations like this, and right now others are taking the heat. I dont think the bigger pictures should make us lose sight of the smaller ones.

Its deficult to discribe how much respect there is around JGK in Denmark. I think even military haters will feel and urge to stand and salute them.

Zerosumgame said...

I salute the Danish special forces. I hope their views represent most Danes.

On the subject of Denmark, here is what Bruce Bawer said of it yesterday in a symposium at Front Page magazine; I was wondering if the sizeable Danish contingent here could comment on it - Bawer lives in Norway, but visit Denmark frequently:

I agree that Fogh Rasmussen in Denmark has set a splendid example. His response to the Muhammed cartoon controversy was terrific. Of course, it was no more than one should have expected from the head of government of a democratic country with freedom of speech, but the whole point is that Western European governments today tend to be so cowed by Islam that, within that context, Fogh Rasmussen’s defiance was remarkable. Yet Fogh Rasmussen is a light in the dark. The reaction of much of the Danish media, academic, and political establishment to the cartoon crisis, and to his handling of it, was repulsive. Many ordinary Danes are proud of their prime minister for having stood up to intimidation and defended freedom, but the response of many other Danes has been to fret endlessly about the reputation of their country elsewhere in Europe, in the EU, and in the UN. Journalists and politicians have told them that the Muhammed cartoons, and Fogh Rasmussen’s defense of Jyllands-Posten’s right to print them, have given Denmark a reputation as racist, as “Islamophobic” – and they’ve bought it, and feel apologetic about it. Whether or not they really think their country is racist is irrelevant – they’re worried about Denmark’s image.

kepiblanc said...

Of course we care about our image abroad. But that image may be different depending on who see it : the Muslims and their useful idiots in your own countries or people who care about freedom and democracy. The Islamic boycott on Denmark doesn't seem too effective : Our exports are at an all-time high, especially to Western countries. And if people abroad see us as "islamophobic", that's all right with me.

Are Danes racist ? - I don't think so. We certainly welcome people from Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria,Bahamas, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Bhutan, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, North Korea, Laos, Latvia, Lesotho, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Serbia, Madagascar, Malawi, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia, Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Palau, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philipines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and The Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Seychelles, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Vatican City, Venezuela, Vietnam, Montenegro, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Where's the racism ?

Phanarath said...

What Bawer writes is true.

The left has attacked the goverment for how it handled the Mohamedcrisis and clamed that it has damaged our reputation. It seems they care more for our reputation then for our reality. The left live in a dreamworld and dont seriusly belive in any objective realety. So naturaly reputation to them is more important then anything else. And they have been good at convincing people.

But the majority of the danes still think that we have a fine reputation, with those worth having one with and/or they think there are things more important then reputation.

Asger said...

With all respect for Bruce Bawer, whom I really like – he is a courageous and inspiring voice in the face of creeping Islamism – I will try to draw a more truhtful picture of the situation here in Denmark.

It is right that ½ of the media and politicians attacked the Statsminister Anders Fogh Rasmussen – and shamefully so. They tried to use all kind of stupid arguments – like our “reputation”. But luckily the other half of the media and the politicians held their ground – and won a lot of admiration in Denmark.

But you should not judge Denmark on the reactions of the politicians and the media alone – the most important is the reaction of the people. And we are not naïve – we know that the terrorists, Islamic fascist, or whateever they are called – are out to get us – and we are fighting back.

What is interesting in this fight is the mindset of the Danes – basically Danes are vikings. It is not said out loud, but behind the curtains, in the families - we talk about our heroes – like Holger Danske. And our herous are killers - lethal and uncompromising killers. You can find a statue of Holger Danske in the cellars of Kronborg, the castle of Shakespeares Hamlet. He is there with his Viking shield, long beard and his killer axe. According to legend he will rise whenever Denmark is threatened.

So this spirit you will find in the fighters fighting in Afganistan, and Irak – and perhaps soon in a city called Vollsmose in Denmark.

It is a sleeping beast, but as soon as it is awake – I personally would not like to be at the end of that high tech, super efficient gunbarrel.

Zerosumgame said...

asger

But you should not judge Denmark on the reactions of the politicians and the media alone – the most important is the reaction of the people.

Almost all North Americans who write about Europe - at least those not on the far left (Bruce Bawer, Claire Berlinski, Tony Blankley, Mark Steyn and Victor Davis Hanson come to my mind in particular) and note two things about the European Elites vs. the "people":

1) They are basically aloof from the average European, and do not care what they average European thinks. This was one of the major purposes of expanding the EU bureaucracy - to create a supra-national government that did not have to responde to the lowly masses.

2) Europeans tend to follow and believe their elites far more than Americans do -- Europeans are more passive and basically let themselves be brainwashed by the elite media. Given that polls show the intense of hatred of America, Israel and Jews in Europe, this assertion would appear to be correct. Europe is not having a "culture war" of the kind being fought in the USA today.

Thus, it would seem, in most of Europe, the reaction of the people does not matter, even if it differs from the elites. The elites do not listen to the average European when they disagree, the EU bureaucrats just go on with their Socialism, their America-hatred, their Jew/Israel-hatred, and their multiculturalist surrender to Islam.

At the risk of sounding cynical, how does the average Dane make a difference outside of his little country?

Mackety said...

I agree that there is not much to be happy about in Europe right now, but things can change I think.

And they are changing....its just that the changes are not happening fast enough for my taste.

But notice for example that the multicultural ideal is going to its grave these years, slowly but surely. Policies are becoming stricter in many countries....nit strict enough for my taste, but its happening even if its taking its time.

What I am hoping for is a kind of snowball effect. At first its rolling slow and its tiny, but it picks up speed and become bigger, and at some point it cant be stopped anymore and has become so huge that it cannot be ignored anymore.

A kind of accelerating process, that is still under the surface, kinda like the sunami in eastasia a year and a half ago.

No one sees it untill it reaches the coast, and then all hell breaks loose.

Asger said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Asger said...

Zerosumgame

At the risk of sounding cynical, how does the average Dane make a difference outside of his little country?

Good question, I will try to answer it:

I think the answer is: Fighting

Why? Because it the right thing to do - and because this it might inspire other countries around us.

The next question is then: How?

Well, we allready fight on many levels:

1. The people
Organisations are emerging, like the organisation SIAD (Stop islamization of Denmark). If the state do not cope, SIAD will start fighting. Political ideal of SIAD: Winston Churchill.

2. Media
The largest newspaper in Denmark, Jyllandsposten, is a vicious fighter. It started the cartoon war – and though it has kept a low profile since, there are more punches coming from that newspaper.

3. Politicians
The government has at least two good fighters: 1. The Statsminister (PM) Anders Fogh Rasmussen. He has exchanged blows with the muslim world, and did good. 2. The minister of education and the church, Bertel Haarder – he is amazing in media and as a lawmaker.

4. Military
We are there in Afganistan and Irak, and the soldiers are not fooled – they are fighting Taliban because it is evil. The the regular soldiers already gave the Talibans some heat, and now the elites are coming in – the jægerkorpset. And that is a bad thing for the Talibans.

Archonix said...

"Europeans tend to follow and believe their elites far more than Americans do ... polls show the intense of hatred of America, Israel and Jews"

I've squished these two snippets down together because I want to illustrate a point, which covers both of these assertions. Simply put, the polls are a sham. Eurobarometer polls, as an example, cover about five thousand people from the entire EU and then extrapolate the supposed majorities from that. That's 5000 out of millions. Not only that, but 5000 split up across 20 different countries with radically different ways of seeing things. It's hardly representative. THe questions themselves are further tailored to give the "right" answer.

So, the polls are unreliable.

Europeans don't exist, except in the minds of the media and people viewing from the outside. In he UK alone there are four different nationalities, with very different ideas about how things are to be run. Within most euroean countries there are different people-groups. The EU as a whole encompaeses 24 countries, but those countries are made up of dozens of groups, with veyr, very different ideas about how the world should be. There's no european consensus except according to what the media and the politicians like to pretend exists. Most people on this side of the atlantic don't foloow because they're brainwashed. If aything they tolerate people whom they feel they are unable to remove. It's not brainwashing when people are resigned to being unable to control their leaders. It is apathy, but apathy is a different thing. Apathy can be broken much more easilly.

Remember, as I've pointed out before, what you see in the US is not even remotely like the reality we live in over here. Our medias are lying to you as much as they lie to us.

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix:

Our medias are lying to you as much as they lie to us.

That they may very well be doing, but since I basically ignore the MSM both in America and Europe, I don't think that point is valid in this case; my opinion of Europe has come primarily via the internet and the books written by the above authors.

In fact, given the left-wing, Europhile view of most journalists in our so-called Mainstream Media in the USA, if I did listen to them, I would almost certainly have a less negative view of Europe than I have now.

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix,

One more point - just about every poll shows that Europeans are far more anti-Israel than Americans. I would venture that polls would show them to be more outrightly anti-Semitic as well, since one prejudice tends to be closely tied to the other.

Write as much as you want about the inaccuracy of polling (and you can probably make the same criticisms of polls here), but I would venture that even you would concede that this prejudice is far greater in Europe.

Phanarath said...

Sometimes it seems very confusing to hear people from the US talk about Europe, as if it was one thing. If people in Europe talked about America as one thing, mening the whole thing from Chile to Alaska, making generalisations about how people think in "America" and "American culture", I am sure you would also find that a bit confusing.

In all of America you speak 5 different languages. In Europe we speak ten times as many. Every country has its own unik culture and perspective of things.

As a Dane i feel culturaly a lot closer to the US, then I do to Portugal, Hungary or Greece. And I know a lot more about how people in the US think and feel then I do about most of my fellow Europeans.

For me Antisemitism is something from the history books. I dont think I have ever meet anyone who hated Jews, nor have I ever meet anyone who could give a reason to why Jews should be hated. The Jews in Denmark, dont stand out in any way. Usualy we dont even know who are Jews and who are not and I dont think anyone cares other then maybe the Jews themselves and some Muslims.

Antisemitism might exist in Europe today. but if it wasnt for you Zero, I personaly wouldent know about it.

Sometimes, when Americans talk about Europe, I get the feeling that they are not talking about the Europe that I live in. Its sounds to me like "Europe", to may Americans, is a term that is part of the American language. So when you say "Europe" in America, other Americans know exatly what you meen. But to a European, who thinks you meen the actual Europe, it makes no sense at all.

Zerosumgame said...

Phanrath,

First, can we concede that Denmark is unique among European nations when it comes to Jews, both in how it saved its Jews and how it is willing to fight Islamofascism?

Now, let's move on past Denmark:

The rate of emigration of Jews leaving France, Holland, Belgium, and now even Britain is up considerably.

Last year, about 3,500 Jews left France for Israel. OK -- out of 500,000 Jews that is only 0.7%, but add in those who go to the United States -- emigration from France is up by about 2,500 per year since 2000 -- I venture most of those are Jews, and add in Jews leaving to Canada and Australia. Further, many Jews probably leave France on student visas or tourist visas and do not come back. Thus, probably more than 10,000 Jews -- 2% of the Jews of France -- are leaving each year. Let me put that in perspective for you -- that would be like 100,000 Danes emigrating each year, or SIX MILLION Americans. Jews are ecnomically better off than most Frenchmen, so they are not leaving for economic reasons. They are leaving because raw, violent Jew-hatred is back, and is indeed acceptable in Europe. And it will only get worse as Europe becomes more Muslim, and more Muslim it will.

Also, let me ask you this -- you say you have not heard an anti-Jewish remark, but I bet you have heard a lot of nasty anti-Israel remarks -- and when he get down to what people in Europe don't like about Israel, it boils down to the fact that Europeans do not think Israel -- and Jews for that matter -- have any right to defend themselves. For 2,000 years, when Europeans wanted to kill Jews, they were able to do it without resistance, and without punishment. Europeans cannot accept now, nor will they ever be able to accept the idea of a strong, fighting Jewish people. Europeans believe Jews should only live at the mercy of Europeans.

Phanarath said...

I have no reason to think you are wrong about France Zero. My point was that I dont know about the situation in France from being European. I know about it from places like this and people like yourself.

Also, I cant see the connection between what people think about Israel and how people feel about Jews.

To the best of my knowledge, people who are Anti-Israel are also Anti-American, Anti-Danish and generally Anti-Western.

The Mohammed/Cartoon incident made me understand a lot better, what Israel has been going trough for many years. And I also think that it shows that getting on the wrong side of UN, the MSM and the whole PC-circus isnt something restricted to Israel, but rather the target is any western country who dares to defend its own Soverenity.

Zerosumgame said...

phanarath:

Also, I cant see the connection between what people think about Israel and how people feel about Jews.

You can't be serious. If you are, it shows you that even rightist, pro-American people such as yourself have been affected by the virulent anti-Israel propaganda in the European media. I can understand it -- the propaganda and hate against Israel is unending, brutal, relentless.

The anti-Israel criticism is driven by a ridiculous, and indeed, ultimately genocidal double standard against the only Jewish nation on earth, one in which Europeans, Muslims, NGOs, and the UN make heroes out of Islamonazis who openly want to finish Hitler's work, and condemn, attack and boycott these Jews for trying to do anything -- ANYTHING -- even building a wall -- to stop it. The criticism of Israel is criticism of the Jews defending themselves. These critics want Israel and the Jews dead. Period.

Think there's no connection? Then why do attacks on Jews all around the world skyrocket whenever Israel is forced into war against these filthy Islamic scum, and the world media (especially Europe's) vilifies Israel for having the nerve to defend itself?

You have a lot to learn, my friend.

Baron Bodissey said...

Zerosumgame tends to be a Johnny-One-Note, but I think he's right on this one: People who oppose Israel generally do not like Jews. You can't have one without t'other.

If anyone here ever runs into somebody who is anti-Israel but pro-Jewish, please report it here, because it's rarer than a Republican in Hollywood.

But, Zero -- go easy on Phanarath and the others: those who haven't encountered much anti-Semitism and are not anti-Semitic themselves do not have enough experience with such things to grasp all these connections intuitively.

Be nice to the Danes. They are great guys, and they are on your side.

Zerosumgame said...

Baron,

I am not johnny one-note (I think that if you really look over my posts the past few weeks, the overwhelming majority have not dealt with the subject), but on the other hand, I will not shy away from bringing up anti-semitism when necessary, since it is a crucial element in Islamofascism's efforts to soften European resistance to the growth and eventual takeover of Islam in Europe.

And while I never will write as well as Fjordman, I very respectfully dispute that multiculturalism/PC is the "cultural AIDS" that is weakening Europe's resistance to Islamofascism; anti-semitism is; just as it softened Europe to a takeover by Aryan Nazis.

Read Nelson Ascher's fine piece a couple of weeks ago in Pajamas Media about this, where he called anti-semitism the weapon given to Europe to allow itself to commit suicide.

I concede that phanrath is on our side, but like a lot of Europeans, when it comes to Jews and Israel, they still need a reality check.

After all, there are perhaps only 7,000 Jews in Denmark, so he, like most Danes, really almost lives in a world without them.

Phanarath said...

Well I do agree that for Muslims there is a conection between Israel and Jews. I Imagine its mostly Muslims that attack Jews around the world. Muslims are a special case, since they often care more for Religion than Nationality, so off course they will always see Israel as the Jewish state.

There isnt anyone, other than maybe some Muslims, in my little corner of the world, that dont consider this kind of behaviour completely insane.

But we are all targets of this insanity.

Americans have been attacked just for being americans. Danes have been attacked for being danes. A swede was mistaken for a dane and killed in Somalia. All over the world people are being attacked just for not being muslim or not being muslim enough.

The completely unfair way Israel has been treated for years, will fall on anyone, who like Israel starts to do the necessary things to protect itself. And when this happens, and it will, more and more people will open their eyes to the unfairness that Israel has carried alone for so many years.

The Jewish people have an extremely painfull and heartbreaking history. But at least you managed to survive as a people and have a lot to be damned proud off.

I realise I have a lot to learn. My whole perception of the world has changed dramatically, just the last 6 months. Most likely it will continue to do so.

But I wish you would consider 2 things.

1. You; The Jewish people, are not alone in this fight.

2. There is no European consensus on these matters.

Phanarath said...

Didnt see the 2 posts before this last one.

I surpose I need to learn more about these things. All I can realy say, is how things are around where I live.

Dymphna said...

Baron--

I have your "Republican in Hollywood" example, my dear...

Remember my Hungarian Jew doctor friend who is a survivor of WWII and whose family escaped to the West? In his youth he was fiercely Zionist and lived in Israel. In his mature years, he is fiercely anti-Israel and has been thrown out -- or stomped out himself -- of his synagogue more than once for attacking the Zionists in his fierce Hungarian way.

Very smart, very erudite, very anti- Zionist Jew is my friend. I tell him he's suicidal. He tells me I do not understand -- well, he says more than that, but why repeat a rant.

Maybe it's from being Hungarian?...yeah, that's it -- he's meshuggah because he's Hungarian.

Zerosumgame--

Read the psalms: it doesn't say "other people's sins are always before me..." does it?

Your constant repetition of one theme: Jew-as-victim is eventually simply boring. I live in a black community and I know many of them are in the same boat as you -- or at least you as you express yourself here. When the Baron and I show up at a nearby black church for a service (a church so close to us that the property abuts ours) you can feel the anger; it's almost palable. But these angry ones are not from around here, mostly. They're from further north and they've come back to see the old folks. As far as they're concerned we don't "belong" in that church.

You are preaching to the choir here, Z. We know all the words to all your songs and could sing along with you if we wanted. But anything repeated too often makes one obsessive -- i.e., incapable of changing the conversation.

Zerosumgame said...

Dymphna,

You seem to get very agitated whenever I bring up anti-Semitism. You will find, upon review of my posts since coming back, that the majority of my posts do not deal with the subject, but since hatred of Jews is the core ideology, the great unifying force in the world today (what else can you get Muslims, Euroleftists and Pat Buchanan to agree on?), I will bring it up when I think it appropriate.

To have a blog on fighting Islamofascism that discourages talk of anti-semitism is to ignore the 800-lb. elephant in the room.

Profitsbeard said...

zero-

That's an 800lb. gorilla.

[An 800 lb. "elephant" wouldn't be more than a toddler.]

Archonix said...

"but I would venture that even you would concede that this prejudice is far greater in Europe."

It exists. I don't know if it's any greater than in the US, though I have met some pretty racist people in my travels. My experience has been that they're hearts aren't really in it though. They say things because they think it's expected of them rather than because they actually believe it.

You'll find that a lot of people publically express anti-american and anti-jewish/israel views because they're trying to appear as part of the crowd. They think everyone else thinks that way, largely because of what the media has been telling them since birth.

"if I did listen to them [te media], I would almost certainly have a less negative view of Europe than I have now. "

Is that really the case, though? Given that the media on both sides of the atlantic are quietly pushing the "jews are bad, israel is bad, muslims are victims" meme, and always praising the socialist ideas that come out of the EU, whilst dismissing anything that opposes the EU, islam et al as "racist" or "small minded", would you actually be able to look at that and have a more favourable opinion of a place bcause of it?

Let me tell you, the bias infuences everyone except, perhaps, a few hermits in caves. Even these authors of whom you speak so highly will receive a certain amount of influence from it. The information they use has to come from somewhere, be it government statistics or media reports, or even information gathered by private companies. There are just too many links in those particular chains. The result is either an overwhelming pessimism or increasing cynicism. I've gone for the latter most of the time, since being cynical is better than deciding there's nothing I can do about it. My cynicism is tempered only by the fact that I've spoken to a lot of people and they all say similar things. They all think similar things. The only reason they don't tell the world is because they're afraid of being called racist. Very few people can deal with that sort of accusation. It loses its power if enough people ignore it but for that to happen a few people will have to be hit with the accusation, and nobody wants to be. As an analogy, think about how a man can control a whole crowd with a pistol. No more than a dozen bullets, yet he can make hundreds of people do what he wants. They culd bring him down any time they wanted, as a crowd, but each individual doesn't want to be one of the people that gets shot in the process.

Zerosumgame said...

archonix:

You'll find that a lot of people publically express anti-american and anti-jewish/israel views because they're trying to appear as part of the crowd. They think everyone else thinks that way, largely because of what the media has been telling them since birth.

Then what you are saying is that irrational anti-semitism, vilifying Israel for defending itself is fashionable. That is rather a strong indictment of Europe, no?

It makes me wonder how Europe will think when Netanyahu becomes PM, since Bibi has been quite open about how he thinks Europe is a cesspool of incurable anti-Semitism. How enraged will the Euro-elites and media become at Jews then?

Given that the media on both sides of the atlantic are quietly pushing the "jews are bad, israel is bad, muslims are victims" meme, and always praising the socialist ideas that come out of the EU, whilst dismissing anything that opposes the EU, islam et al as "racist" or "small minded", would you actually be able to look at that and have a more favourable opinion of a place bcause of it?

While I think that the US media is not sympathetic to Israel, it is nowhere as bad as in Europe. One can compare the basic evening newscasts of ABC, NBC and CBS (all left-wing by our standards) with the BBC news, which is shown on PBS (government-funded noncommercial television) to see that. The BBC is far worse.

Even CNN has admitted for example, that it takes a more pro-Arab stand at CNN International than CNN USA. And this also brings up my earlier point that even this milder anti-Israel position is not popular with Americans -- polls at the end of the Lebanon war actually showed support for Israel went UP among Americans. I don't think Europeans appreciate the disgust that most Americans (especially conservatives) have for the media, it is one of the least trusted institutions in the USA; and the drop in TV viewership of the evening network newscasts has been precipitous -- down by more than half in 25 years. Most newspapers have also suffered almost calamitous drops in circulation.

The only reason they don't tell the world is because they're afraid of being called racist. Very few people can deal with that sort of accusation. It loses its power if enough people ignore it but for that to happen a few people will have to be hit with the accusation, and nobody wants to be.

So, out of fear of what a small, left-wing anti-American, anti-Semitic, Euro-bureaucratic elite might say, millions of Europeans will allow themselves to be bullied by Islamofascists and surrender their culture? To allow a second Shoah? (And remember, this one's a little different, since this time, the Jews likely have a lot of nukes.) My original post quoted Bruce Bawer talking about a lot of Danes supporting banning the MoToons out of fear what others would think. It's probably not true of most Danes, but you said right here that such fear does motivate a lot of Europeans.

Look, I know I am harshly critical of Europe on a blog where many European posters seek refuge from the PC-insanity they face in their daily lives. I am fully aware that the Euro-posters here are on my side in this thing. But I am not optimistic about the future of Europe. I think that Mark Steyn has this one right; much of what we know as Europe today will cease to exist later in this century. Baron and Dymphna will not like that assertion, but I see no Jan Sobieski (or Charles Martel, or Winston Churchill) coming to save the day.

Good people such as the ones who post here should plan accordingly.

Baron Bodissey said...

Zero --

Baron and Dymphna will not like that assertion

Not true. Your monomania is what I find objectionable. However, like you, I'm not sure that Europe can be saved. Its end will not come in my lifetime, but it may well come, if average people don't wake up in time.

But, if this is to happen, it will happen because of Socialism and Multiculturalism, not because of anti-Semitism. Europe would be just as doomed even if it didn't hate the Jews.

I realize that runs against the central tenet of your creed, but it seems evident to me.

The Jews are the canary in the coal mine, but there is a coal mine, and a lot of doomed miners are in it, not just the canaries.

Archonix said...

So, out of fear of what a small, left-wing anti-American, anti-Semitic, Euro-bureaucratic elite

You moron, these people control the entire continent. They've had people locked up for trying to audit their damned accounts, never mind standing up to them in any meaningful way. People have been murdered for standing up to them. Don't you get it? You seem to have skipped my analogy completely with your reply. A man with a gun can control an entire crowd He might only have one bullet, but he can still control them because people don't like getting shot.

These eurocrats may be few, and their ideas are laughable but they have the ability to smear and literally destroy anyone who criticises them. Individuals don't want to suffer through that. They don't want their lives destroyed when there's little reason to think it will make any difference You live in a free country, but you seem unable to see that freedom doesn't exist on this side of the atlantic. I've said it before, I'll say it again: you don't live here. You don't know what they can do to people. They don't disappear, they suffer something far worse. Their lives are destroyed by ridicule and innuendo through a compliant media. They are treated like scum. Beurocrats suddenly make it very hard for them to get the right forms, passports are cancelled, assets are frozen, their tax band mysteriously changes. Their accounts are audited. Accusations of mental illness are thrown about.

Journalists who have investigated corruption in the commission, or in the EU hierarchy, have been harassed, arrested, and then libled and slandered by a media that generally doesn't want that corruption known, because it threatens the "project". People who try to explain out that the EU is wrong are called racist, bigoted, anti-european. Little englanders is the common phrase around here.

So, god yes, we live in fear. You would too. The only reason I don't call this the new USSR is because people can still leave, there is still hope to change things, but it takes a long time to galvanize people to it. It would be done sooner but people like you keep criticising people like me without knowing a damn thing you're talking about.

Dymphna, baron, I'm sorry for doing this in your comments aga again. I'm off. I'll keep reading your articles but I won't touch the comments anymore. It's not worth the heartache for anyone here. Sorry.

Phanarath said...

But then you will miss all the clever things I come up with :-(

Zerosumgame said...

Baron:

But, if this is to happen, it will happen because of Socialism and Multiculturalism, not because of anti-Semitism. Europe would be just as doomed even if it didn't hate the Jews.

I beg to differ, for numerous reasons:

1) Anti-semitism has been exploited for centuries by European totalitarians, from the late Roman Emperors to Hitler, it is and tried, tested and invariably successful tactic. Basically, a group of non-Islamic Nazis used it 70 years ago to weaken resistance to their takeover of Europe; this is being repeated now by Islamic Nazis.

2) Palestinian terrorism began in the late 1960s, before Western Europe had much of an Islamic population; and it was tolerated, even embraced by much of Europe. Why? Simple -- it targeted the lowly, subhuman Jews. The Israeli "occupation" gave Europe the excuse it needed to stop pretending it cared about the Jews, and to justify to itself that the Jews were such filthy animals that the Holocaust was justified. Thus, Islamoterrorism grew to critical mass in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s because Islamonazis exploited the deep and insatiable anti-Semitism of Europe. Once it grew to critical mass, it turned on other targets. Europeans certainly feared OPEC, true, but not their native Muslims populations then. But make no mistake, it was their exploitation of European anti-semitism that allowed it to be born and to grow. I assume you've read Eurabia; then you would know that the alliance with Islamists in no samll part rested on European hatred of Jews among the European elites.

3) Political correctness and multiculturalism developed as reactions to the Holocaust -- Europe so reacted against the racism shown in WW2 that it created mechanisms to prevent what it saw as any resurgence of such racism. Of course, Europe being Europe, it soon found a way to make hatred of Jews an exemption. But the whole PC movement was birthed from genocidal anti-Semitism.

I don't expect Europe to ever shake this sickness off. It is too deeply ingrained in the culture; it occurs across all nationalities, across the political spectrum, and across the span of European history. Whether a state has been run by the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran church, the Nazi church, the Marxist Church or the Islamic mosque, hatred of Jews has been common to them all. It is simply not possible for European culture to accept Jews as anything other than evil people who exist solely at their mercy, and who should die when Europe deems they should die.a Unlike Americans, with their belief in self-reliance, self-defense and the underdog, the EU (and I think many if not most Europeans) find a capable, strong Jewish state as something that just does not belong; it is too much of a historical aberration for them to accept.

And this hatred will kill the old Europe. Not that the new, Islamic Europe would hate Jews any less. But Europe would probably be free of Jews.

And for a fair number of Europeans (let me stress -- NOT the ones who post here), that will be consolation enough.

Baron Bodissey said...

Archonix, you'd better not stop commenting.

I'll forgive you the epithet; you were in extremity.

Also, Phanarath needs you. :)

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix:

I read your post, and re-read it. I did not interpret it the way you wanted me to, but read it I did.

Your situation stinks. I don't dispute that. What can I say? Sometimes life is a choice not between a good alternative and a bad one, but between a bad alternative and an even worse one.

You have three choices:

1) You can fight the overwhelming power of the EU, try to change it, knowing that you will likely lose.

2) You can accept your fate and hope the deluge and bloodshed comes after you die.

3) You can leave.

Guess what? Jews in Europe face that choice today, and have faced it for 2000 years. 75 years ago, we didn't have ANY of those choices. We had no choice but to die.

Welcome to the world of the Jews.

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix:

You moron, these people control the entire continent.

Do you see me calling you names? I have written again and again that the posters here do not suffer from the delusional hatred of many other Europeans. I have stated that despite some differences, they are on my side. Granted, I do not care for Europe, but you don't seem to be such a big fan of it either.

How do you expect to fight Islamofascists, armed and ready to die, when you get so upset at criticism of Europe from a single poster 4,000 miles away?

Archonix said...

I get upset at peope sitting right next to me who complain about America and democracy. Very upset sometimes.

The point is this, though: "criticism of Europe from a single poster 4,000 miles away"

You are a long, long way away from here my friend. Your first mistake, which you keep persisting in, is to look at "europe" and assume it's a homogenous single area. That's what the EU wants you to think, that's what they want *us* to think, but they - and you - are wrong. The second mistake is to assume, based on that first mistake, that europe and the EU are synonymous. They aren't. THe third mistake, based on the first two mistakes, is to then assume that because some people within this construct of Europe are anti-semetic then all must be. Our media and our left-wing are anti-semetic, in western europe, to a large degree, but they're a minority. They do not make up the majority. I fully accept that a silent majority is as bad as no majority at all but I find it a little disturbing that you are so keen to paint all of Europes peoples as rabid anti-semites. If anti-semetism has existed in the past it's because people have simply not been given the chance to think otherwise by their leaders. Most of the continent had no idea of democracy until the 20th century, and even then but briefly in a lot of cases. HOwever, look at the countries that have had it the longest (the UK, basically) and you'll find that this anti-semetism you're talking of is much lower. Freedom shows people the truth. The idea you should get from that is that most of Europe simply isn't free.

But you, 4000 miles away, can't see this. ALl you see is a big lump of French blue with yellow stars, called "europe", full of jew haters and communists, and so you tell everyone you can hear about it. People like you are making it so hard for people like me, because the people I'm trying to help pint at comments like yours and say "see? We're right, they're saying this about us and you sympathise with them!" or something similar.

The irony is, I agree with just about everything else youv'e said. THe problem you have is that you put it across in a way that leaves people only one assumption: that you see no hope for us. Baron and others have made exactly the same points in the past, but they put it across in a way that gives people the incentive to try and change things. You put it across in a way that makes people wonder if it's even worth bothering to breath.

Pharanath, I like your cool things but there's a principle at stake here, now. I will return at some point, until then you'll just have to live without me. ;)

Signing off...

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix,

But you, 4000 miles away, can't see this. ALl you see is a big lump of French blue with yellow stars, called "europe", full of jew haters and communists,

First, it seems like many Europeans have no problems making statements about the USA, and outrageous ones at that, even though THEY do not live here, and many are probably more ignorant of the USA or have a more skewed view of it, (thanks to Michael Moore & CNN). I am entitled to give an outsider's view of Europe. You know the saying "He can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, at 4,000 miles, maybe I can see the forest in a way that you can't. As Americans, we are expected to tolerate indefinitely the criticism that comes at us from Europeans, or to apologize for the Bush Administration and admit Europeans are right. But when we Americans legitimately criticize the EU and Europe for its cowardice, its bigotry, its hate, its moral inversion, it seems like most Europeans blow a gasket.


People like you are making it so hard for people like me, because the people I'm trying to help pint at comments like yours and say "see? We're right, they're saying this about us and you sympathise with them!" or something similar.

Look, if you think that fighting Islamofascism is the right thing to do and that it will save Europe, you will fight it regardless of whether I like Europe or not. If you think that remarks from a single cynical Jewish poster at a blog read by 4,000 people per day(or from some journalists critical of Europe like Steyn, Will, Krauthammer, Hanson, etc.) is going to undermine the entire effort by Europeans to fight off Islamofascism, then either your commitment to fighting it is very weak, or Europeans have an even bigger problem with Jews standing up for themselves than I even imagined.

Again, I will stress that most of my posts until this thread did not deal with European anti-Semitism, and going forward, most will not either. Despite the perception that I am "monomaniacal", I am really not (although perhaps it would not be a bad idea if more of use were -- let's not forget we face hundreds of million of monomaniacal anti-Semites who want to wipe us off the face of the earth). But I will not shy away from bringing up the subject if I think it important. It is perhaps THE crucial device by which Islamofascism spreads its influence around the world, and it is foolish to think that these beasts can be defeated without dealing with this poison.

Phanarath said...

well..

Lets cross our fingers for the election in sweden.

You never know if a miracle might happen and people like Archonix will get a well deserved breake.

Mackety said...

Miracles happen, but I dont think its miracle time just yet.

I share to some extent the pessimism of Zero..., but I have to say though that the future is NEVER foretold, and when things DO change, they can change a lot faster than you would think.

I dont think its time to give up yet, allthough if the day should come where Europe is lost completely, I sincerely hope that USA will not have given in to the multi cult, that you will allow a fellow traveler like me to join your great country and to fight the good fight on your side.

But untill I feel Europe is lost I will remain here and fight with what weapons I have, mainly I suppose with my words and my will!

Archonix said...

I wish to make a point here, and then I'll depart this thread again.

If you think that remarks from a single cynical Jewish poster at a blog read by 4,000 people per day(or from some journalists critical of Europe like Steyn, Will, Krauthammer, Hanson, etc.) is going to undermine the entire effort

MNy exact words were "people like you". IE People with your patricular defeatist attitude. All those others you mention, critical as they are of the european reactions to Islam, at least phrase their criticism in a way that allows for improvement. As I said already, you, and people like you, counc their criticism in a way that sucks out morale and leaves people wondering if there's any reason to go on fighting. After all, according to people like you, there's no hope for us.

In a nutshell that's what I've been trying to say. Defeatism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your cynicism in this case doesn't just affect you, it affects everyone who reads it, and that in turn affects everyone they associate with. By yourself, you probably don't have an effect, but think about a dozen people like you, or a hundred, all saying similar things, and moral the affect that will have on people.

I criticise everything you have about Europe. I agree with the general thrust of your arguments but I prefer to leave people with the idea that they can improve, instead of just beating them over the head until they give up and die.