Those who wish to exchange epithets, and you know who you are, should move on to other blogs.
The deafening silence you heard last week was the sound of the world’s “human rights” NGOs and the major media of Europe condemning the barbaric torture, mutilation, and murder of American servicemen in Iraq. Or maybe their condemnation was drowned out by the wailing over the poor Gitmo detainees, or the outcry about the horrors of extraordinary rendition by the CIA, or the protests over hideous tortures inflicted on terrorists at Abu Ghraib prison, or some such. In any case, there was no evidence that people whose primary concern is human rights had even tertiary concern over the human rights of Americans in Iraq.We posted a couple of times about this issue, and the resulting comment threads became quite contentious. Anger at the hostility of “Old Europe” — and its indifference to American casualties in the struggle against Islamofascism — eventually boiled over into recriminations against Europe in general. Some of our commenters have gone beyond pessimism about Europe, and have ended up in dogmatic certitude that the continent is a lost cause, mired in a mixture of dhimmitude, passivity, and anti-Semitism.
The arguments became so toxic that they drove away at least one of our frequent Danish commenters. He emailed me yesterday to say this:
Well, most commenters here are Americans and accordingly it seems to me that every discussion winds up in a cul-de-sac, namely:
1. Europe is doomed and lost, no matter what.
2. All Europeans are anti-Semitic dhimmies.
3. No European will stand up for Israel.
Okay — I’m a busy man. I have a job and a family. Not much time for rubbish. So, in my spare time I’d prefer to concentrate on the task at hand — which is to help revving up the momentum of European resistance in general and Danish resistance in particular.
You may call it “friendly fire”, but taking flak from remote echelons stateside forces me to fight a two-front battle. And I don’t want that. There’s a war going on over here. So far it’s quite “phony”, but when things start to roll I won’t waste too much effort in guarding my rear…
It pains me that this doughty Dane was forced to defend himself against attacks by those who should be his allies. I’m not talking about trolls here: the folks who were arguing so strenuously are in broad general agreement with one another. None of us wants to see the reign of Multiculturalism extended. Each of us is primarily concerned with the struggle against the Great Islamic Jihad. And all of us are pro-Israel.It may well be that Europe is completely lost, and there’s no hope, and the vast majority of Europeans are imam-appeasing anti-Semites. But I don’t think so, and, in any case, the evidence isn’t all in yet. You can’t go by the major European media, which are firmly controlled by the socialist appeasers. And you can’t even go by public opinion polls — not only are the questions in MSM polls always phrased in such a way to evoke the “correct” response, but many people are afraid to display their true opinions, even in a supposedly anonymous poll. The true feelings of Europeans will not be evident until the real crisis comes.
In the meantime, the people who show up here are a self-selected group who are already standing in opposition the smelly little orthodoxies of our time. Some have painstakingly acquired English so as to engage in conversation here, and many of them go to the trouble to translate Danish, German, Swedish and Norwegian sources so that we monoglots can find out what’s going on outside the Anglosphere.
We do a disservice to these brave and dedicated people by lumping them in with the dhimmis and Jew-haters. If change is to occur in Europe, it will come from people like them, people who are primarily from the “New Europe”, with Denmark leading the way.
And I hope the New Europeans who have honored us here with their presence will continue their patient and civil arguments against the nay-sayers. I hope their optimism eventually will infect us all.
No one’s mind has ever been changed by insults and angry accusations. If the anti-Semitism of Europe is to be overcome, it will happen in the same way that anti-black racism was overcome here in America, by decent-minded people speaking out opposing it, by patient repetition of the moral case against it, and by reasonable and humane argument. Invective convinces no one. Racial prejudice in America is still with us, but it was made vulgar and publicly unacceptable by the efforts of the non-racists among us.
The change starts out small, and then grows. It starts out with ordinary, average people taking a quiet stand.
I won’t have an effect by screaming at people who will never listen anyway. I won’t make a difference by calling you or Nils or Friedrich or Stanislaus or Henrik or Pierre an anti-Semite. I will make a difference by saying this:I Stand With the Jews.
The world can only be changed incrementally, one mind at a time.
Update: Exile has responded to this post. A quote:
If ‘divide and conquer’ is still the same tactic that it has always been, then this has worked. Is there a hidden agenda here? Or have these people merely been so blinded by their own obsessions that they don’t recognise support even when they see it?
He also has advice for our Danish commenters.
54 comments:
I can understand the European poster's frustration, coming from a state that is seen as the epitomy of fruits and nuts (The People's Republic of Kalifornia).
Conservatives write this state off all the time. That is a huge mistake, there are many, many people here who are unhappy with the status quo, although we are not yet in the majority.
Frustration is understandable, angst is understandable, but the simple truth is that we need each other, and we are more alike then different.
How many Americans and/or Europeans really wish to live under Sharia law?
BTW, I stand with Israel.
Dymphna, Baron and others -- I thank you deeply for your support. But..... (Warning -- long post)
No one’s mind has ever been changed by insults and angry accusations. If the anti-Semitism of Europe is to be overcome
It won't be overcome. Europe does not want to overcome it. Neither Old Europe NOR the New Europe.
I don't wish to anger people here, especially Baron and Dymphna, who hope and pray for a spritual and moral redemption of Europe, but I'm going to have to rain on the parade here.
60 years after the first Holocaust, the Europeans are aiding and abetting the Palestinians, Iranians, Syrians and Saudis in bringing about another one. They sold Saddam the means to make chemical weapons. They sold the Mullahs nuclear technology. They have consistently vilifed Israel for having the nerve to defend itself. The ENTIRE EU (and that includes the NEW Europe for which you have invested so much hope) voted at the UN to condemn the building of this anti-islamofascist terror wall. If there is one thing Europe hates more than a cowering, scared Jew, it's a brave fighting one. Jews are fine when they are dead, or willing to march meekly to the gas chambers; but nothing is as outrageous to the European as a Jew who does not roll over and die when Europe thinks it's his turn to die. This is not just my view. It has been expressed by the likes of Charles Krauthammer, George Will, and Mark Steyn, to name but three.
2000 years of deeply inbred hatred is not going to ever leave Europe. Ever. If the Holocaust could not exorcise this demon, nothing will. This is a hatred that has been a common thread throughout European history -- from the destruction wrought by Romans in 70 CE to the massacre of Jews in Alexandria and the Theodosian Code of the 5th century, to the massacres by Heraclius in the 7th century, to the massacres of Rhineland Jews in the 1st Crusade in the 11th century, to the extermination of 50% of the Jews of Western Europe during the Black Death in the 14th century, to the massacres of hundreds of thousands of Jews by Ukrainians in the 17th century, to the Tsarist pogroms of the 19th centurty, to the Shoah of the 20th century, to the impending second Shoah in the 21st century by Ahmedinejad, which Europe has no intention of helping to stop.
In fact, this latest chapter by a supposedly reformed, post-Holocaust Europe and its desire to destroy the Jews goes back to the early 1970s, less than thirty years after Hitler. Remember that after intial setbacks in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel needed an airlift of weapons to survive; and Nixon (much maligned by Jews, but in this case, may have saved 3 million of them) was ready to deliver it, BUT NO EUROPEAN NATION WOULD ALLOW PLANES TO REFUEL! Kissinger was even then told by France's wonderful diplomats at the Quay d'Orsay that Israel was just too much trouble, and it would be best if the Jews were gone for good. Only by severely twisting the arms of the Portuguese generals were the planes allowed to refuel in the Azores.
By 1982, when Israel invaded Lebanon to stop attacks, Europe had reverted to its old, irrational, insane Jew-hating self.
Fast forward 20 years, with a large Islamist population in their midst, and decades of brainwashing by a Marxist media that simply relabeled Jews as Zionists and fed the same poison to a European population. Is it any wonder that scores of Jewish leaders have compared Europe today to Europe of the 1930s? That Israel's Chief Rabbi Lau, after travelling through Europe last year, said the the final chapter of European Jewry is closing?
And we cannot blame this on just the EU elites. In a 2003 poll, 59% of Europeans believed that Israel was the greatest threat to world peace. All for trying to defend itself from a savage culture that glorifies their Nazi children as they commit genocide, piece-by-piece.
The New Europe (and let's focus on Poland)? Yes, I will grant these people do not share the anti-Americanism of "Old" Europe. But they share its anti-Semitism. Even today, a common way to slander a political candidate in Poland is to accuse him of being a secret Jew. Traditional far-right parties of Slavic xenophobia (or in Hungary's case -- Magyar xenophobia) have made increasing electoral gains. And while I am not a big fan of the perpetual poll-taking of the ADL, they do show very high levels of anti-semitism continue throughout Eastern Europe.
It's too late when it comes to Europe. The Jews look at the demographics and the hatred, and they KNOW it's over for them. Hitler will gain at least one final victory. Europe will be Judenrein in 30-40 years. And I don't think most Europeans will be particularly upset by that.
The future of Jews lies in Israel and in the Anglosphere.
The European chapter will close. And in my opinion, the sooner the better.
Baron, Dymphna, if you wish me not to come back, I will understand.
Well, I for one do NOT wish zerosumgame to leave and though I disagree with parts of his analysis he brings a much needed flinty eye perspective to the European theater. And make no mistake, Europe is the principal theater in this relentless war against Islam (not Islamism, not radical Islam but ISLAM!!) Islam as spelled out immutably in the Koran is the enemy. And how could it not be so. The religious obligation of ALL good Muslims is to conduct jihad against the west. And with the price of oil escalating they have nearly inexhaustable resources to conduct jihad. Not unlike the Ottomans of yesteryear.
But let us not forget the heroism of so many who have fought this war in EUROPE for 1600 years. The Europeans have paid dearly for the freedoms we all enjoy as Westerners. We cannot give up Europe without a fight. Eventually, if only a small percentage, some will come to their senses. Europe has been fighting Islam for 1400 years in an unrelenting and ruthless war conducted by the Muslims against the West. The list of atrocities is too long to even contemplate. The heroes are too numerous to count but include El Cid, Jan Sobieski, Charles Martel, Don John, the defenders of St. Elmo on Malta, King Louis and his sixteen thousand Magyars, Queen Isabella, Janos Hunyadi, Giovanni Giustiniani, Don Francesco of Toledo, Constantine XI, King Sigismund of Hungary - to name but a very few of the heroes of the Western Resistance whose names should be on the lips of every Western school child.
The time is growing shorter and shorter. Europe hung on to Malta but lost Constantinople. The Muslim animals were driven out of Austria, Hungary, Poland and Romanianot but incompletely driven out of the Balkans. And each one of these strategic realities based upon the countless sacrifices by men who we fail to honor at our own peril, has ramifications which have echoed to the present day. We cannot afford the luxury of giving up on Europe. The Reconquista will be long and painful but certainly no more so that that the Spanish undertook for over 600 years through the 15th century. Certainly not as difficult as that undertaken by the Hungarians. Europe, or what is left of Europe, will remain our ally in this war. And they will fight - eventually. Mark my words. Despite the nearly unimaginable damage done by PC, socialism, relativism and multiculturalism Europe WILL come to its senses.
And just as the Hungarians needed help expelling the Muslim savages, just as the Spanish needed help, just as Don John of Austria defeated the Muslim savages at Lepatano leading a multinational naval force and just as a multinational force successfully defended Malta through unbelievable sacrifices at St. Elmo so too will we eventually help Europe. For we must.
Zerosumgame --
I don't want you to stop commenting here -- anyone who is civil is welcome to argue here.
I just don't think you or I are equipped to know for certain that Europe can be written off. We do not have enough knowledge to be able to say that. The presence of those who think differently -- i.e., the New Europeans who come to visit here -- attest to the existence of at least a faint hope.
I simply wish that you would change your emphasis from time to time, just occasionally, once in a great while, and welcome those who are willing to stand against the Jihad and support Israel, even if they are too few, even if they are doomed to fail.
They deserve our thanks, just as the men who died at the Alamo deserved our thanks.
And we don't yet know that their fate will be the same as that of the heroic Texans.
Scott:
I'm a non-observant Jew, but a staunch Republican in a family full of liberal Democrats, and share your disgust with the political blindness of most American Jews.
Baron:
Ultimately, you are more optimistic about the future of Europe (or at least part of it) than I am.
You therefore believe that the goal of morally upright Europeans is to stand and fight.
That may work in some of Europe (namely Poland), but demographics is just working too much against much of the rest of Europe.
You have no doubt read statistics that say that about 50,000 native-born Dutch leave Holland every year. That translates to about 900,000 Americans, if you scale up in proportion to the population. That is a staggering figure. That figure alone speaks volumes about what Dutch themselves think of the future of their country. And I venture that those leaving are generally the ones who are more conservative, more philo-American, philo-Semitic and traditionally religious. In other words, the very ones you would hope to stay and fight the Islamic menace.
(Any Dutch on this forum, please feel free to chime in.)
I say to those Europeans who are pro-American, pro-Israeli and (preferably) anti-Socialist -- "I give you credit for holding such positions in Europe, where they may not only be illegal, but dangerous to your well-being."
I would also tell them to have an exit strategy ready. Just like many of the Dutch have already exercised.
It may well be that Europe is completely lost,
***********************************
Very possible for instance the demographic age group 20 and below in France is 35% immigrant nationwide and 45% in the large Cities, extrapolate that trend one more generation and tell me what YOU think the results will be?
***********************************
and there’s no hope, and the vast majority of Europeans are imam-appeasing anti-Semites.
***********************************Not I, atr least not the majority of the people,just the majority of their political leaders and academic intelligensia.
That is why I have a weekly post expressing solidarity with Denmark as regards Freedom of Speech and the Press.
Find out how it will be in Europe under Islam.
Read: "Hatred of the Angels"
After you read this e-book, I think you will understand what Europe has in it's future if we don't help them.
It will be in our future too if we don't help them and destroy Islam.
Islam is the Enemy.
Papa Ray
Please don't allow the idea that Europe is lost to gain any ground. I live in Western Europe, in Birmingham which is destined to become the first city in Europe where whites are the minority. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but as the majority of the ethnic people will be muslims, this worries me. Before I entered the Blogoshpere, I beleived some of the nonsense the MSM and especially the BBC spouted about multiculturalism. And I was puzzled by such things as the fatwah on Salman Rushdie. But now I have learned the horrible truth about islam, where it comes from and what its deranged followers believe in. So we must all stand up for Freedom !
I understand that it's the natural tendency for the United States to draw within its borders and create a fortress for itself there. Previously this has worked. It would have worked very well in both world wars, because neither the japanese nor the germans (imperial or otherwise) really wanted to attack America - Japan only attacked the US because FDR managed to sufficiently reduce their oil supply. You would have been safe, and history would have progressed, after a fashion, with freedom coming to Europe at some point and the asian co-prosperity sphere collapsing, as all empires eventually do. The thing is, you didn't choose to remain in your fortress then, because you knew that a line had to be drawn somewhere. Freedom had to be defended, because it's the right thing to do.
Now, we face a completely new war. Once again the states has to choose between defending the freedom of others or withdrawing in to its fotress. This time the war has taken on a completely new dimension. The fotress is already breached, and withdrawl to its walls will only keep America free for as long as it takes Islam to subjugate the other major powers. You need to defend us in order to defend yourselves. It's that simple.
So yes, most of us are probably arrogant and acrid toward the US, and there is a sizable minority in most of the world that simply spews hate toward you, but nevertheless you have to defend them from their fate at the hands of Islam. I believe this is akin to the staunch support for Israel over the years. More painful for you, perhaps, but at the same time much more important because, if we fall, it's only a matter of time until you join us.
While the U.S stands willing to help, I'm not so sure that you can count on American aid immediately. The principal responsibility for ensuring your own safety falls upon you. I'm sure there will be money for opposition groups, but troops? Weapons? I don't think so. Americans are fed up with the attitudes of Old Europe governments, and that will make any response slow and grudging.
Europe is not lost, but things will get a whole lot worse before they get better. Those trying times will be fundamental in rousing the populace from their apathy and blamestorming.
Does anyone have a clue as to how we can even begin to fight islam? How do we purge this evil from our countries?
The Reconquista will not be pretty. Just as the Greeks purged the acursed Muslims from their country in the early 1800s, the Hungarians expelled them in the 1600s, the Spanish over 600s finally rid themselves of the Islamic curse in the 1400s etc. etc. etc., we will be forced to do so in the future. That task will be monumental and will require actions unthinkable still today. And yet, failure to undertake these tasks will earmark the end of our civilization. Istanbul is a prime example of what happens to Western civilization when we shrink from our duty to protect ourselves from the Islamic tsunami. Milosevic's tactics, though harsh, will eventually be seen as an unfortunate necessity. The Islamic savages have meted out violence and savagery of unimaginable proportions since its inception. They will reap what they have sown. It will not be pleasant.
Birmingham which is destined to become the first city in Europe where whites are the minority. This is not necessarily a bad thing,
Yes, it is necessarily a bad thing. For the last salvation of mankind, of WHATEVER stripe, is Western Civilization as embodied currently in the United States. When that civilization is undermined due to the deceits of multiculturalism, socialism and PC we ALL loose, not just whites of European extraction, but ALL of mankind. When we dilute our civilization and allow aliens in our midsts who refuse to share our values then the cause of our superior civilization is lost and mankind will enter a new dark age considerably worse than that we previously experienced.
"Birmingham which is destined to become the first city in Europe where whites are the minority. This is not necessarily a bad thing..."
I agree with Charles, although perhaps for different reasons: it is indeed a bad thing.
We have been so bombarded with the notion that "racism" is an evil in and of itself that we have become blind to anything having the taint of it.
Of COURSE its foolish to hate people on the basis of their skin color, if that were all the issue was about. But is it so foolish to note that the flood of non-white immigrants do not assimilate and that it is unlikely in the extreme that they ever will, given the critical mass and ghettoization built up in formerly caucasian nations? Is it foolish to be angry that no discussion, no studies...indeed very little thought at all was put into the notion of happy multiracial multicult coexistence before it was acted upon? Is it foolish to note that the culture Europeans fought for and built over millenia, out of the ashes of Rome and Greece, is in danger of being submerged in cultures that have not yet even succeeded in feeding themselves?
The true danger lies in our inability to face the truth. We, as a society, cannot even bring ourselves to name the current enemy, Islam, much less the greater enemy, multiculturalism, which is itself a mere euphemism.
Of course the foregoing will be immediately branded by some as "hate" or some such nonsense, and to those I say...whatever. Come back when you are willing to argue rather than toss about slogans and silliness.
scottsa,
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Multiculturalism is the cancer destroying our culture. And as other more articulate than I have said, Islam is a secondary infection. But secondary infections can kill as this one has done for 1400 years. Our civilization, our culture, our values are superior to those of the Islamic savages. And while many shrink away from such statements, it is such pride on which our survival will ultimately be based.
"According to this (in Swedish) recent poll, only 7% of the Swedes are positive towards Islam, and 50% are negative."
Ah-hah, a chance to try out my swedish!
Interesting results... 58% undecided about judaism, 29% negative and 13% positive. I've met one of the 29%, but she was more of the general "the jews control the money and it makes me jealous" sort of conspiracy rather than particularly hateful toward them. It strikes me that the recent popular portrayal of Sweden as anti-semetic is, at the very least, more than a little bit of spin by the local media...
Come back, Mr? Mrs? Miss? Ms?Dane. Please. People like you are our eyes and ears.
In fact, please bring your friends
Maybe gloomy Dr Zerosum's prognosis is correct; just in case it isn't, like minded (well, more or less like minded) Americans and Europeans need to consult, advise and plan. We don't have the luxury to bicker.
Santiago y cierra España,
eatyourbeans
Perhaps emphasizing the distinction between the behavior of the European governments/elites and middleclass would be useful. Most of us here in the states realize that the majority of middle class Europeans hold the same beliefs and goals that we do, but their political systems do not allow the sort of heterodoxy prevalent in the US. And the EU is steadily eroding what power the middle classes still wield in Europe. Otherwise, we're all people concerned with the negatives of Islamic influence on our liberal western societies.
It simply doesn't make sense for the peoples of the west to give up on each other when we already have demographic and political disadvantages.
Thanks for that post, Baron. Couldn't agree more.
"It would have worked very well in both world wars, because neither the japanese nor the germans (imperial or otherwise) really wanted to attack America"
Archonix, I have to disagree. The Japanese sent thousands of balloon bombs to the U.S. (managing to kill several people and start some forest fires) and submarines shelled the west coast several times. But more important was that Japan had a large biological weapons program (tested in China) that was eventually destined for the U.S. Hitler had an ongoing program to bomb the U.S. with large bombers and missiles, and a large amount of shipping was sunk by U boats on the east coast in plain sight of people on shore. Time was the only reason that kept multiple types of attacks from occurring on the U.S. mainland.
Europe is a complex place. I was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland and I currently live in Budapest, Hungary. Thinking about, for example, support for Israel in both countries shows some interesting things.
In Northern Ireland there is a big difference in political outlook between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants (55% of the population) almost entirely support the state of Israel. The level of support is such that people often fly Israeli flags in Protestant districts of the country. Catholics (40%) are more divided about Israel, Sinn Fein (20%) is completely pro-Palestinian, the SDLP (18%) contains supporters and opponents of Israel.
Hungary would probably be quite a surprise for US or Western European residents, as there the Left wing parties (Socialists and Liberals) largely support Israel. The Socialist/Liberal coalition was recently re-elected, the first post-communist government to serve more than one term of office. The Hungarian Right, on the other hand (the main opposition party, Fidesz and the tiny fringe group MIEP) are opponents of Israel. MIEP members of (Left wing controlled) Budapest Council made speeches congratulating Hamas on ist victory in the Palestinian elections. Ironically, several of the leaders of MIEP were communist secret police spies reporting their neighbours during the bad old days.
If I go into a bookshop in Europe I can buy lots of books criticising the US and very few supporting it. Strangely, however, most of the anti-US stuff is written by Americans themselves, Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky and the like.
It is too early for Americans to give up on Europe. This battle is not one between between the US and Europe. The real battle is within both societies between those who stand up to evil and those who appease it.
Ruben, I agree. No one wants Europe lost to Islam but you got to help yourself. It starts with reality, Europe is being invaded by a hostile civilization that wants to enslave or kill them. Getting over that hump is a major problem, the US included. The US save Europe? Who will save the US?
The demographic trends for Europe are utterly depressing. Everyday the Muslim population is breeding like mad, and the Crackers go barren. They are parasites accelerating the bankruptcy of Europe. I don't want Eurabia to come into existence, but the trends are depressing. The US has its own problems. What can we do for Europe? The leadership despises the US. I know not all EU leaders hate us, Denmark, Poland, etc., but the overwhelming majority would like nothing better than for the US to have another terrible setback in the war against Islam.
I am doubtful about Europe, but at the same time, I detest those who slander me, and I refuse to condemn ALL Europeans when there are quite a few who are standing up and trying to fight, and who clearly seem to be our friends.
I am also seriously concerned about the US. I'm not certain, in another generation, that there will be anyone here able to help Europe. I had given up on Americans and left the country in the '90s. I just came back last year because I discovered there were a lot of people I had overlooked. A slim majority, in fact. I had ignored signs that things were changing.
There are now signs that some Europeans are changing. I have no idea of the percentages, but then, I had no idea of the percentages in the US before Bush's re-election. There are changes happening over there, and if there's a chance it could turn around, then we have to fight.
We could use some help, some allies, in this war. Specifically, we need to develop communication and support networks with anyone anywhere who is our natural ally. We can find them via Internet, work to understand each other, coordinate efforts, and help each other build change in the world.
Even if we lose, giving up is idiocy.
Live free or die. It's not just a pretty license plate decoration.
Nic Fan:
RubenRussell: How can you base your opinion on one interview with a stupid Danish journalist. What he is saying is a downright lie and it's just to put Denmark in a bad light.
I have read the Bruce Bawer book, too. The two journalists/writers in question are Lars Hedegaard and Helle Brix. Are you familiar with them? Apparently they wrote a book which called Muslims in Europe "a third Jihad", which was enough to get them thrown out of your writers' union. These journalists appear to "get it" - they appear to understand the threat and are not afraid to write about it. I would not dismiss them so easily. Besides, how many Europeans base their ideas about America on Michael Moore?
Read this report "Commissioned by the E.U. Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia"
Are you serious? That report is an excellent example of why Americans and Jews think the EU is sick. First, they tried to shelve the report without even printing it, because it put the blame for most of the Jew-hatred on Muslims. Then when a copy was leaked to the World Jewish Congress and printed, they released the report -- changing it to blame the attacks on Neo-Nazis!
Blame Muslims for their hate? By the EU? No, they can't have that now, can they? Better for the EU to be quiet about beating up Jews in the streets and burning down synagogues than to offend their own Islamic Nazi thugs.
A bit of advice -- don't ever offer that EU report as evidence again. On this side of the Atlantic, the report is a joke and has no credibility whatsoever.
nic fan:
One more thing:
So will you please stop the slandering of your allies!!!
OK. Can we dispense with this once and for all? Our criticisms of Europe are NOT slanders of the Europeans who post here. We realize that the Europeans who post here agree with us more than they disagree with us.
These criticisms, however, ARE legitimate criticism of the EU, your media, your academics, and many millions of Europeans who still believe the Socialist, multiculturalist garbage they read.
Some of these people may be your friends and family, so the attacks hit close to home. But they are still legitimate criticisms.
"Some of these people may be your friends and family, so the attacks hit close to home. But they are still legitimate criticisms."
Many of the criticisms are legitimate. It is correct to warn of the possibility that Europe may become part of the Islamic world. It is right to warn of the complacency of European populace and the complicity of their ruling elites.
The problem with the "Europe is lost" line is that, fortunately, Europe is not yet part of the Muslim world. Until it actually becomes Islamic Europe can be rescued. Historical trends can be reversed, there is no inevitability that Europe will become Muslim.
The "Europe is lost" line is incorrect. More than this it is completely defeatist. If you abandon Europe who do you abandon next? Israel? New York? California? Oregon?
It isn't over until it's over.
David:
The problem is not Americans abandoning Europe. The problem from this side is that it seems Europeans are abandoning Europe. The posters here seem to represent an exception. But European "elites" have abdicated any role in defending it and seem very intent on silencing those who do. And millions seem happy to go along. Many don't have children. So they just want "pre-Islamic" Europe to hang on until they are dead or too old and sick to care.
I have written off Europe, Zerosumgain hits the nail on the head better than I could ever say.
In an odd way, the Euro's, by murdering thier jews, have brought the moslem hoards onto themselves....
It's karma actually...
If europe is to get a spine, it will not be to be "pro-jewish" but rather for it's own survival and it will be nationalist and xeniaphobic and bloody, making hitler and stalin look like school kids.
I do not see any hope for europe to learn not to hate it's jews... I just hope it learns how to hate the evil of islam that seeks it's destruction
Will you people stop this f-ing bickering? Or go find a boxing gym somewhere and get it out of your system. The rest of us got a war to fight.
Nic Fan said...
There is NO anti-semitism in Denmark apart from the bloody muslims. Can't you get that into your bloody thick skull???
Ok, this is the end for me, I will not take being called an anti-semitist or that Europe killed the jews, the germans yes, but not Europe!! Read up on your history! I take the "educated" statement back again!!!!!!!!!!..
nic..
Europe with small exceptions in time and places did in fact murder it's jews, true in ww2 denmark acted with honor, however the history of europe and the jews is full of so many bad examples to mention the mindset of most jewish people is why bother? after 1500 yrs most are moving away since they still dont feel safe.
Not all Euro's are anti-semitic however if you watch world politics and the euro support of "palestinian" issue, from Hamas to it taking how many years for the International Red Cross to accept Israel (still not the red mogen david symbol) as a member you might understand a different point of view.
I personally have traveled from the ghetto of Venice, to the Jewish quarter of Paris, the history is deep with pain.
Europe (not you personally) has done great crimes to it's jews... not just germany... please learn actual history
Europe has also been a safe-haven for jews. We rescued them from Islam several times.
I won't deny that anti-semetism has inflicted itself on this continent time and time again, but I DO NOT subscribe to the idea that it's somehow a base-state for this place. NEVER. Call it denial if you like, but history bears me out. For every attrocity comitted against thew jews there are numerous examples of our help to them. The murders were coommitted in the name of political expediency; teh jews held a lot of money, and were very visible in the community, so they were easy marques. The same attitude is part of what drive Henry to establish the church of england and sack the monastaries way back when. It wasn't hate. It was lust, if anything. Coveting thy neighbours goods.
Reuben: "This is the kind of remark that drives many American up the wall. It drips with arrogance."
Well call me arrogant then, I'm not the one saying that we should abandon our allies in their most desperate time of need. Frankly you and zerosumgame, and all you people, can go take a hike. Don't want to help? Fair enough, but don't come crying when that black flag is flying over the whitehouse, because that's what will happen if Europe is allowed to fall.
zerosumgame said
"OK. Can we dispense with this once and for all? Our criticisms of Europe are NOT slanders of the Europeans who post here. We realize that the Europeans who post here agree with us more than they disagree with us.
These criticisms, however, ARE legitimate criticism of the EU, your media, your academics, and many millions of Europeans who still believe the Socialist, multiculturalist garbage they read.
Some of these people may be your friends and family, so the attacks hit close to home. But they are still legitimate criticisms."
In what way does any of this distinguish 'millions of Europeans' from 'millions of Americans'?
The attacks are entirely legitimate insofar as they excoriate stupid, uninformed, knee-jerk, left-wing, ideological responses.
It seems to me, however, that many of you forget what Europe has been through.
You might, for example, note that the UK alone has suffered more killed in the "Long War" than the USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_ii_casualties). Speaking as an Australian living in the UK, it's also rather galling to read that the USA was 'alone in Vietnam'.
On the subject of anti-semitism and (lack of) support for Israel, I agree that it seems a deep sickness of Europe; however, the puritans were rather worse than the average and I seem to recall that they had some involvement with the USA. You might also like to see what the USA did in 1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_crisis), which might, in retrospect, be regarded as a very bad move.
archonix
Europe has also been a safe-haven for jews. We rescued them from Islam several times.
OK. Name them.
I only know of two cases where Jews fled Islamic persecution into a Christian Land --
1) 12th & 13th century Spain when Jews fled the fanatic Almohads of Southern Spain into a then tolerant Catholic Spain.
But we all know what ultimately happened to the Jews of Spain, don't we? Those that weren't murdered or forcibly baptized ended up -- fleeing right back to Islamic rule under the Ottomans.
2) Jews fleeing post-WW2 Independent Arab states in the Maghreb to go to France. And you see what's happening to the Jews there now, don't you?
canker
It seems to me, however, that many of you forget what Europe has been through.
I haven't forgotten that Europe went through the Holocaust 60 years ago. Although it often seems like Europe sure has forgotten.
Speaking as an Australian living in the UK, it's also rather galling to read that the USA was 'alone in Vietnam'.
I know Australia fought with us in Vietnam. Australia has been our staunchest ally since its independence. There are just two problems with your statement:
1) I have never brought up the issue of Vietnam in any post here.
2) It has nothing to do with arguments over anti-Semitism in Europe.
On the subject of anti-semitism and (lack of) support for Israel, I agree that it seems a deep sickness of Europe; however, the puritans were rather worse than the average and I seem to recall that they had some involvement with the USA.
I will admit that I do not know too much about specifically about how the Puritans viewed the Jews, but was not Cromwell a Puritan? And did he not let the Jews back into England, after Catholic and Anglican kings had kept them out for 366 years?
zerosumgame said:
'I know Australia fought with us in Vietnam. Australia has been our staunchest ally since its independence. There are just two problems with your statement:
1) I have never brought up the issue of Vietnam in any post here.
2) It has nothing to do with arguments over anti-Semitism in Europe.'
Quite right! My apologies. I'm afraid I confused what you were saying with some of the comments in the article by New Sisyphus (http://newsisyphus.blogspot.com/2006/06/srebrenica-kosovo-unknown.html).
I don't think this dialog is helping anyone. People, don't you think that the resistance in Europe knows that the EU sucks? Don't you think that they know they have a serious problem on their hands? Excoriating those awake is not helpful -- waking up the sleepwalking is, however. The circular firing squad behavior here depresses me even more than the grim reality that we're all facing.
Russet shadows:
I'll move on to another thread if you do the same.
I, for one, do not stand with the Jews. I do not stand with Organized World Jewry, which is blatantly anti-white, anti-Christian. I do not stand with Israel's foreign policies. I do not agree with "THE Holocaust" as the only holocaust to ever grace this planet when 3 to 10 million Christian Ukranians were genocided in a faux famine thanks to leftist totalitarianism, yet hardly anyone mentions them. The same leftist totalitarianism that was originated by Lenin and his band of over 80% Bolshevik Jews which led to untold millions of deaths of gentile Russians. I do not agree with the mentality of "is it good for the Jews" by many, many Jews, even ones of the conservative mindset like "zerosumgame". I do not agree with books still in circulation like Germany Must Perish written in 1940 or so by Theodore Kaufman where he advocates the complete genocide of all things German, including all Germans. I do not agree with anti-American and anti-white organizations like the ACLU, ADL, AIPAC, JDL, and Hollyweird where they advocate the destruction of European white racial and nationalistic identity as well as normal family structures. I do not agree with attacks of "anti-semite" towards known philo-semites like John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt who wrote the paper, The Israel Lobby, where they factually showed that this lobby is quite detrimental for the US, nationally and internationally, just because they had the nerve to shed light on it. I do not agree with schools of thought spearheaded by Jews such as the Frankfurt school and Franz Boas where racial and nationalistic identity was chipped away and eventually led to the "no such thing as race" mindset of today and changes in immigration policies of western nations that changed from European white and merit based to third world, family reunification. I do not agree with Jews being a religion or a race, depending on the circumstances and how it benefits them. I do not agree with how Jews lobbied to remove "Jew" as a category in government statistics such as their attendance in prominent universities, law firms, government agencies and the like so the "fear of persecution" is avoided. I do not agree with a separate identifier of "anti-semite" for people who proffer criticism against anything Jewish, rightly or wrongly. I do not agree with "hate speech" nor "hate laws".
I agree that Israel has the right to survive as an independent state and sovereign nation, though do not agree with the ideology of "multiculturalism and border erasure is good for thee and not for me" that many in Organized Jewry and Israel hold.
I, like many here who are advocates of Jews, know many Jews who are the nicest, most decent, generous, hard working, family oriented people. Many are simply blind to what is going on underneath the radar and what their organizations are doing to the western world and buy into the propraganda foisted on them by not so nice and powerful Jews. That is why I cannot, in good conscious, blame ALL or even most Jews for the harm that Organized Jewry has had on whites and the west. However, they and people like "zerosumgame", need to educate themselves in the harm that their brethren have done and try to change it in order for healing and peace to have a chance between Jews and non-Jews. They need to break away from the mindset that they are looked upon suspiciously just because "they are Jews". Simply bringing attention to Europe's anti-semitic stance and laying the blame for it at the feet of all gentile whites is not only wrong, but a propagation of this very same anti-semitic stance. If a people cannot see how THEY have affected the current state of affairs and view themselves as the perpetual victim, then they are only laying the ground work to be "victims" once again at some unknown point in the future. One thing about human history is that it relentlessly repeats. Lawrence Auster is one Jew, though of Christian faith, who clearly writes on these topics and how whites need to break their anti-preservational funk as well as how Jews need to stand up to the nefarious effects of Organized Jewry.
Unlike many White Nationalists, I like most Jews that I've come across and think they should be welcome in western nations. However, a thorough cleansing of the tribalism mentioned above and an honest analysis of what has happened needs to be done before we can move forward against the "War on Terror" and Islam etc. Multiculturalism and Islamization of the west is just a manifestation of a very deep problem that is only starting to rise to the surface.
Dymphna, Baron:
Please delete the Nazi garbage above, or you and I may get in trouble with my retort to this degenerate Nazi animal.
zero--
It's the Baron's post, not mine, so I will leave it to him to decide. While I agree with your sentiments, I find the paranoia and the internal contradictions in his arguments pathological enough to leave up for display...unless it started attracting flies.
Instead of going off, though, just as a mental exercise, you might take each of his points and use them as the starting point to make your own case...though I will say I'm not inclined to do so myself.
He needs professional help, not argument. This is a case of the less attention, the better.
At any rate, it's up to the B. to decide.
We're all adults here. Either riposte in a sensible and logical manner to disprove my assertions, which in reality are not mine per se but have been thoroughly documentated by historians and Jews themselves, or simply drop the pleading for thought and speech suppression.
Histrionic "moral idignation" is unbecoming. So are ad hominems which do not equate to refutation.
Hitler was a socialist. Did you know that?
Check it out.
We're all adults here. Either riposte in a sensible and logical manner to disprove my assertions...
What you've got here, Mr. White Nationalist, is a syllogism missing its middle term:
1. We're all adults here.
2 ________________________
3.Riposte in a logical manner to disprove my assertions.
See, you don't have a middle term, and thus your syllogism is invald, guy.
Yeah, we're all adults here. But this blog is founded on the fact that we stand with the Jews. Thus, the adults would be neither inclined to argue with you nor congenial to your position.
I, personally, find your points either invalid vis-a-vis the mission statement of this blog, or simply wrong-headed. But I am in no way obliged to grant you the time it would take to refute, discredit, or -- in the case of your irrelevancies -- bracket your terms.
Put simply, your arguments aren't worth refuting. Not everyone who shows up making claims I don't agree with gets attention to his deathless prose....
In this case, you fall into the category of the ones who don't.
Just because your threadbare, tiresome assertions make zero jump up and down doesn't mean they make us all angry.
Surely you have something better to do with your time than come here? Like perhaps registering for a Rhetoric 101 class? You're not nearly as smooth as you think you are, chum.
But this blog is founded on the fact that we stand with the Jews.
Touching. A real tear jerker. Noble, even. But alas irrelevent to the points above, again thoroughly proven and not by "neo-nazis" as the esteemed Dershowitz spewed out at Mearsheimer and Walt, and their veracity.
I posit, with your logic above, that we need to stand with Muslims since there are more than a few "moderates" and it is only the "islamofascists" that are the trouble makers. I mean really, why blame an entire religion of people who are smeared as anti-west when it is only a few bad apples? We must stand with the Muslims!
No need to worry that I may unbalance this lovely ship of blind philosemitism and "free speech". I was simply joining in the discussion that was quite on topic. I didn't see where it was stated that only assenting views, specifically on Organized Jewry and Israel, is required. My apologies...
The Blind Philosemite-in-Chief weighs in here...
I have a rule here: If you remain civil, and your language remains temperate, then your comment can stay.
I can't stand up for free speech if I'm going to censor people for the content of their comments. I do, however, reserve the right to delete anything that gets really nasty and mean-spirited (i.e. ad-hominem attacks, name-calling, etc.). And that's my judgment call.
Ethnocentrist hasn't met those criteria yet. In the meantime, for those so inclined, I suggest that you use your skills to refute him. Demonstrate that Islam and Judaeism are not moral equivalents, citing the relevant scripture from each. Use statistical evidence about the behavior of each religion's adherents to show why the Jews are worthy of our support against Islam.
But I don't have the energy for it. Sometimes I argue with, sometimes I ignore those with whom I radically disagree.
Oh... and, by the way, I stand with the Jews.
I stand with the Jews.
Russet Shadows said...
"I don't think this dialog is helping anyone. People, don't you think that the resistance in Europe knows that the EU sucks? Don't you think that they know they have a serious problem on their hands? Excoriating those awake is not helpful -- waking up the sleepwalking is, however. The circular firing squad behavior here depresses me even more than the grim reality that we're all facing."
I couldn't agree more. We're faced with a consensus acceptance of the EU by politicians across the spectrum, but I believe that they're not exactly representative - certainly not in the UK. However, it's extremely hard to fight the Establishment-particularly when the MSM is 100% behind them on an issue. Having our American allies slang us off for being stupid is no help.
Baron,
I will not argue with a Nazi bigot like him. I will not dignify a POS like him. (In fact, he would consider Nazi a compliment, just check out his website.)
And if you want to banish this post because of its "uncivil" tone, remember, it is not 1/100 as uncivil as the vile, genocidal lies of ethnocentrist.
Obscenity is often far worse and far more deadly in the essence of an ugly idea than in the uttering of a few insults and profanities.
As for "freedom of speech", let's remember that this is a private forum, not the government. You are not required under the constitution to let him speak. He has hundreds of forums he can go to where he will be with like-minded bigots; and these places would ban you or me in a heartbeat.
"He has hundreds of forums he can go to where he will be with like-minded bigots; and these places would ban you or me in a heartbeat."
Baron probably wants to be the better man... ;)
I agree, though, there's little point debating people like this. Though it's worth pointing out that the jewish scriptures contain nothing even approaching the hateful calls to murder and rape that exist in the koran, it's unlikely that even a detailed comparative study that conclusively proved this fact would sway such a man one iota from his position. The solace we can take is that the nazis are, and always have been, an isolated minority.
And again I would like to point ethnocentrist to the link I posted previously, and anyone else who is interested. Hitler is potrayed as right-wing, and the deception is so complete that parties such as teh BNP are referred to as right-wing when they espouse socialist policies.
Archonix,
Hitler was not only Socialist, he was a gay, vegetarian Socialist who hated Jews with a passion.
In other words, he would have made a perfect head for today's European Union.
Zero, Archonix --
It's not whether this is a private or public forum.
Freedom of speech is my principle, and I have to stick by it. It's especially important to do so when I vehemently disagree with someone.
It's easy to let those you agree with speak freely; even the Pharisees do that. How much harder it is to let those whose opinions you consider vile have their say!
I do delete comments when they get vituperative, though. Discourse here has to be civil and temperate.
BTW, Zerosumgame -- your last comment was not uncivil. Not at all.
Ethnocentrist,
I removed your comment for two reasons:
1. The long polemic you pasted in from elsewhere. Cite somebody with a link or a precis; don't clog the thread up with long blocks of text copied from elsewhere.
2. The name-calling following the paste. As I said before, I don't want that here.
You are welcome to make your own arguments in a temperate fashion.
It would also help if you realized that the others here are commenting in good faith, and are just as certain as you are that they alone have discovered the truth.
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