Thursday, June 22, 2006

Giving and Taking Offense

Frothing at the mouthDymphna’s post on the barbaric slaughter of American servicemen, and New Sisyphus’ take on it, sparked a lot of controversy in the comments. What I noticed was the offense taken by some of our regular European readers, and their unhappiness with the contempt for and dismissal of Europe.

First of all, let’s clarify that it’s “Old Europe” that we’re holding in contempt here. Newly assertive European countries from the former Soviet Bloc (or even from the late unlamented Soviet Union itself: Fellow Peacekeeper, this means you) are not included in this contempt. And not all of “Old Europe” should be included, Denmark being a case in point.

And another important thing to remember is that Dymphna and New Sisyphus are referring to the governments and major media of the European countries. After all, those are the filters through which most Americans understand Europe. I presume that, like their counterparts in the USA, they do not represent the people of their respective countries very well. Based on the European blogosphere, or at least the English-language portion of it, the opinions of the people and the opinions of their elite gatekeepers are quite divergent.

But you, who come here to Gates of Vienna to argue and discuss, are a self-selected sample of your respective countries. You come here, for the most part, because you can find intelligent conversation with like-minded people on topics of mutual interest.

How representative of your home countries are you?

Zonka, kepiblanc, Fellow Peacekeeper, Exile, and others whose names I can’t think of right now: Do your fellow citizens line up mostly with you? Or do they mostly sneer at America, hate George Bush, and back the Palestinians?

We know what your media and governments say, but how do your fellow citizens feel?

Dymphna and I are members of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, and thus in a small minority here in America. I don’t confuse our opinions with those of most Americans. We’re fighting a rearguard battle against overwhelming opposition, what with the permanent bureaucracy, the Academy, and the Legacy Media all in the hands of the Treasonous Left. Americans may wake up eventually to the Islamist menace, but they won’t be giving up their Medicare prescription drug plan or state-subsidized day care anytime soon. I’m under no illusions about that.

If it’s the same in your countries, then we’re not talking to you and you have no need to feel insulted; you are in opposition to the PC power structure, and we are on the same side.

If we’re wrong, and the vast majority of Europeans are ready to rise up as one against their elites, assert their rightful claim to govern themselves, and throw their support behind the United States of America, then…

Well, then Gates of Vienna will have to eat some crow.

43 comments:

Exile said...

I am victim of my own experiences and conviction. I can therefore, only speak for myself.
Those who do not agree with me do not remain long in my circle of friends. I am too outspoken.
However, though I hear doubts about the legitimacy of the war in Iraq, I hear no denigration of the men fighting there. Nor would I tolerate it.
Generally, people here can differentiate between the politics and the individuals on the ground.
War is merely an extension of politics.
We too suffer the same leftist idiocy that you do in the USA. We too have a biased press. But, despite all that, our government is for the moment more right wing than left by European standards, and the USA is viewed as being "the big nasty" by about 30% of the population. At a guess, I would say that Bush is more popular here than he is there.
There was some sort of poll on this recently, blogged by a Danish blogger. I have contacted him and he has kindly allowed me to translate and quote him. I will do this at a later date.
Putting that aside, I will always defend the troops. They are there because they were sent there. I too was a soldier. I have seen combat. They have my sympathy and my utmost support. Never doubt that.
Discuss the politics, yes. But leave the troops out of it.
As one great poet said; "Theirs is not to reason why.."

Zerosumgame said...

And another important thing to remember is that Dymphna and New Sisyphus are referring to the governments and major media of the European countries. After all, those are the filters through which most Americans understand Europe. I presume that, like their counterparts in the USA, they do not represent the people of their respective countries very well.

Baron,

I think that when it comes to America (and certainly when it comes to Israel and the Jews), the general European populace is more in sync with the elites than you care to admit. No doubt you remember that infamous poll where 60% of Europeans felt that Israel was the greatest threat to world peace. The belief that Bush's foreign policy is the work of "Neocons" (code word for a Jewish cabal) is not limited to the elites.

The other thing I don't understand is -- if you do not believe that the average European is anti-American (and I think that the Europeans who post here are NOT average -- they are more conservative and far more skeptical of the garbage their media puts out) why did you and Dymphna put that blog posting on the previous thread about how "It's over, over there." Is it not inconsistent that you are willing to make distinction between the Islamonazi animals who run Iran and the general Iranian population, but then not make the same distinction for Europe if you think that the same dichotomy exists there between the elites and the populace?

Based on the European blogosphere, or at least the English-language portion of it, the opinions of the people and the opinions of their elite gatekeepers are quite divergent.

Baron, I think everyone here is agreed that the average European is further left than the average American. The difference in opinion is perhaps not so great over there as you think. However, outside of Britain, conservatives in Europe have almost no media outlet to act as a voice, so of course they are going to turn to the blogosphere to express themselves. And they will also select politically sympathetic sites such as this one. My guess is that Europe has just as many, if not more, left-wing bloggers than conservative ones, but they just do not feel the need to come here, or to LGF or any other like-minded site.


Dymphna and I are members of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, and thus in a small minority here in America. I don’t confuse our opinions with those of most Americans. We’re fighting a rearguard battle against overwhelming opposition, what with the permanent bureaucracy, the Academy, and the Legacy Media all in the hands of the Treasonous Left.

Baron, this media is in very sharp decline and they know it. At one time, they had 100% of the media, and everyone watched them. Now, they still hold perhaps 80% of the news media, but they have lost more than half their viewers. Newspaper circulation is down about 20% in raw numbers since 1980, but it's actually much worse than that for them, as the USA population is up by a third.

Academia? Well, the left will blow up their campuses rather than give up control, but as O'Reilly showed with the Ward Churchill incident, their lunacy will no longer go unchallenged. Enrollment in the liberal arts and humanities is way down, precisely because people do not want to pay $100,000 to get an indoctrination, unless they are already politically inclined that way.

Oh, and if the VRWC is so small, why do we control the White House, Senate, House and a majority of governorships?

Sure, we've got a tough battle against a ruthless foe (in this case, I mean the far left, not Islam), but they are losing ground in America and will continue to do so.

anti-uffe said...

I wrote some comments about this earlier today in the "Breaking the rules of engagement" thread. Briefly, I stated that the anti-dhimmitude of Denmark is likely to be overstated by you and others, however proud it makes me. That being said, there is an undercurrent of anti-Islamism here that is being underrepresented by the MSM, but nowhere, nowhere near the situation in dhimmi nightmare states Sweden and Norway.

My feeling is that the media do more reporting on the existence of and reactions to islamohatred than on the validity of such opinions themselves.

Where Denmark may be slightly in advance of others is the prevalence of such opinions in letters to the editor of newspapers. This has been the case for many years, but a concerted anti-dhimmitude (mostly about the abuse of our welfare system) campaign around 1998 by the tabloid Ekstra Bladet was probably instrumental in bringing such opinions more to the fore.

No Danish newspaper would ever print editorials denouncing Islam per se, rather than the mythical few extremists who have hijacked etc. etc. ad nauseam. Not even Jyllands-Posten; certainly not them, I should stress, because this would be seen as confirming claims of them being bigoted and islamophobic. The flak they would take would be devastating, maybe even on a global scale (again). Now, do the editors hold such opinions in private? I don't know, really. They most definitely wouldn't dare print them.

So am I, and those believing like I do that Islam is the new fascism, belong to strata of the Danish society in opposition to that of the elite? I would say yes, since only members of the Danish People's Party would ever say something so drastic openly. And while everybody outside the government coalition (and many inside it too!) wish for them to remain the pariah of the Danish parliamentarian system that they once were, the fact is that with the current distribution of seats in the Parliament they are more mainstream than they have ever been, as they provide the mandates needed for the government to remain in power. Come the next election all that may change. Danish anti-dhimmitude is a fragile entity, not cast in stone.

NewSisyphus said...

This is about more than the Iraq War or expressions of support here and there, though I find it very typical that the moment an American dare open his mouth and criticize Europe at a level one-tenth of the daily level of criticism leveled by Europeans at America, the Europeans posting here are reduced to shaking anger and indignation.

Just another example of how our sheltering of them has not done them any favors.

And I strongly disagree that it is just the governments and the media that we have a problem with.

Yes, there are good people in Europe. Do a search on my blog for the terms "French" or "Paris" or "european" or my comments at Little Green Footballs (where I post as "KevinV") and you will see the lengths to which I have gone to defend the good, decent European people I have had the honor of living and working with.

But the overall political environment that has been allowed to exist over the past 60 years--for which America deserves its fair share of the blame--has been one where America and her soldiers are criminals no matter what we do.

If the Europeans posting here find my comments objectionable, I'm afraid they are in for a big shock when push comes to shove. I'm positively pro-European when it comes to the common view here.

Fellow Peacekeeper said...

Ah, its the day before Midsummer so I fired that first offending comment off rushed - poorly targeted and badly edited, apologies. However :

I realise that was not aimed at New Europe, but having served in a couple missions (SFOR and KFOR, and ISAF maybe real soon) and working continually to prepare folks for OIF, with both Old Europeans and Americans in all these cases, I have fairly strong views on the trans-Atlantic alliance. Pretty much all positive. So despite maybe having relatively little in common with them day to day, I get shirty when the fine Spanish, Danish, Swedish, Italian, Brit, German, French or US soldiers I serve with get gratuitously besmirched.

"remember is that Dymphna and New Sisyphus are referring to the governments and major media of the European countries."

Partly agreed - Dymphna yes, however Sisyphus I interpreted otherwise, and he himself now says :

"And I strongly disagree that it is just the governments and the media that we have a problem with."

Well, IMHO the problem is not with the populace at large. The problem is with ill informed and badly formed attitudes that confuse the populace with crypto-traitorous media nd political elites (and that goes both ways across the Atlantic) and its those people I have an issue with.

I still think that post of Sisyphus was a rubbish (horrible atrocities committed against US soldiers by Arab terrorists somehow become a source of anger against eeeevil Europe?), cheap (baseless cheap shots), uninformed (unjustified generalizations throughout), nonsensical (many internal contradictions with nary a hint of resolution) prejudical rant (baseless euro bashing for the afore mentioned reasons fueled by anger/grief/whatever).

Sisyphus : "I'm positively pro-European when it comes to the common view here."

Now THAT indicates there is a serious problem.

And if a bad emotional rant attacking friends for illogical reasons* feels** right, then I'm sorry but yes, YOU have an irrational problem.

* Shroeder and Chirac mouthing off? That British marxist newspaper that well, does the NYT write better?? German pseudo-hippies in coffee shops expressing concerns about the war??? And thats equivalent to half the Palestinians in Gaza dancing in the streets on 9/11 is it?
** Letting emotion overcome logic is natural at times of course. But justifying emotion overcoming logic is very PC.

Epaminondas said...

Talk to me when the birth rate of certain euopean nations exceeds the death/replacement rate.

I don't want to hear about somebody feels this or that..I don't want hear about polls...

We have several inarguable criteria
HISTORY
NUMBERS

The reproductive rate of western european nations are the root cause of the mess in europe. Why is it so low?
WHO CARES?

It is a sign that these societies are now so decadent they have decided by ACTION to stop being in existance.

I am certain we have many friends, but as we saw beginning with the Reagan deployment of the Pershing (in response to the Soviet SS20 or 25) and demonstrations - europe (western...old europe?) decided the americans were simply too much of a bother. We were insistent on counterforce, and deterrence. We were insistent on talking about it, and doing things, and making people think about it and worrying.

And now we are not only doing it again, but INVADING places.

We are pissing off a lot of people who admire Hamlet, and those pesky jews are worse. It's so BOTHERSOME, isn't it? When you are cassandra, YOU are the problem, even if you are right.

Worse, Guantanamo was such a good talking point against the cowboys, and now the very people who are in the caribbean prison with their honeyed chicken and rice pilaf are busy taking american uniformed prisoners of war, and gouging out their eyes, cutting off their fingers and toes, and heads and privates in a grotesque imitation of 1942, and skewing the word torture away from the tight t shirted female interrogators of the yanquis, eh?

Listen, the real problem is that we really are NOT like Europe. We are filled with those who were unsafe in europe, and who rejected the oppression and greed, and ran to the former colonies to escape the very things which makes europe today, a withered ancient tree...whose existance as it has been since the dorians came south to Sparta.. in perilous question. We created, to Frances Trollope's dismay a society where 'any man's son may be the equal of any man's son' (the horror, the horror).

Talk to me when the birth rates exceed the replacement rate. Until then, the place is dying.

Dying.

So sorry, but that's the way it is.
Those who wish to live, ACT. Those who don't find comfort in dithering.

And I love it in Oc, so.

Baron Bodissey said...

Zerosumgame,

A lot of your points I'm in agreement with.

First of all, it was Dymphna, and not I, who chose to post "it's over, over there". Just as I am not yet ready to give up on the idea of a "moderate Muslim", I'm not yet ready to give up on Europe; that's why I pay so much attention to Denmark.

And I don't know how well our European readers represent the spectrum of opinion in their countries. That's why I'm asking them. But if 30%, or even 25%, of their compatriots feel like they do, then it's enough to give me hope.

Like you, I'm unhappy with the level of anti-Semitism in Europe. That's one place where we Americans are really different: I think far fewer of us are Jew-haters (though we do have our share).

And even worse are the people who are indifferent to what happens to Israel and the Jews, as if the fate of the Jews is not important to them, no big deal. That one really gets me steamed up.

But where I differ with you is on the idea that the VRWC controls the White House and Congress. We have a big-government free-spending President who is also strong on national defense, but he's not what I call a conservative. We have a profligate, corrupt, and cowardly Congress. Maybe 25% of elected Republicans could be called conservative. THROW THE OTHER RASCALS OUT!

kepiblanc said...

Baron --

You asked a direct question : How representative of your home countries are you?

Let me try to comment on a few accusations concerning Denmark : newsisyphus seems to believe all our newspapers are utterly dhimmified and anti-American. Rubbish, pure and simple. Denmark's largest newspaper, Jyllands-Posten can hardly be described as dhimmified - what with all our über-dhimmies constantly screeming islamofobia at it. And it is as pro-American as can possibly be. Compare that to any American MSM...

Let's take the No. two, Danish newspaper Berlingske Tidende. Yes, it is a wishy-washy, this side and that side, moderate paper, but anti-American ? - No way. And it regularly prints anti-Islamic columns that no US MSM would even consider printing. Todays poll "Do you think that private, Islamic schools are given too much leeway ? Yes : 91% - No : 9% (2137 votes, 1058 p.m.).

Then, Okay - there's Politiken. That one fits newsisyphus's desription. It is only No. three of the major papers. And its tabloid, Ekstrabladet is very Islamocritic indeed.

In short : it it meaningless to state absolutisms about a people by its newspapers. If I had to judge the American people by its MSM I'd probably consider you all impotent, lunatic dhimmies.

Of course anti-uffe has a point : The present Danish government could lose the next elections. Not likely, but in theory. But so could yours. Then what ? - Would that imply that the US suddenly caved in to CAIR, dissolved its military and jumped into bed with Saudi Barbaria, Pakistan and Egypt ? - Oh...sorry, you're already there, aren't you ?

Lastly : I consider myself fairly average when it comes to Danish politics. Matter-o-factly I was left-leaning most of my life - until the 'left' sided with Islam. And I used to be a soldier as well (professional for seven years). I'm no conservative either as long as our conservative parties are pro-EU. So, like many formely mid-stream Danes I'm now voting for the government-supporting party, the Danish People's Party.

To sum it up : I think you're gravely mistaken about Europeans. We might even 'take the heat' for you in this war, because if we fail, you're next in line....

whit said...

Here is an interesting Pew Global Research Poll:
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=252

Favorable Opinion of the US:
Great Britain: 56%
France: 39%
Germany: 37%
Spain: 23%

From the article:
Other Major Findings


There has been a marked change in views of the Middle East conflict in both Germany and France. In both countries, increasing numbers sympathize with Israel; Germans now side with Israel over the Palestinians by about two-to-one (37%-18%).

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is enormously popular in France as well as in Germany. Fully 80% of the French express at least some confidence in Merkel.

Positive views of the American people - along with the U.S. - have declined in Spain. Just 37% of the Spanish feel favorably toward Americans, down from 55% last year.

Turks are increasingly turning away from the war on terror. More than three-quarters of Turks (77%) oppose the U.S.-led war on terror, up from 56% in 2004.

Negative views of France have increased over the past year, especially in Muslim countries. In Turkey, 61% feel unfavorably toward France, up from 51% last year.

Baron Bodissey said...

Fellow Peacekeeper,

I'll let New Sisyphus speak for himself, and Dymphna for herself, but here's my contribution:

We need to distinguish between Dhimmi Europe and the rest of the continent. In the former I include France, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, and, more and more these days, Britain.

The other Europe is represented by Poland, Denmark, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Rumania, and others. Except for Denmark, these are the nations whose people have only recently acquired liberty, so that they value it still and are willing to defend it.

In order to be positive and optimistic about this part of Europe, I have to put aside my distaste for the anti-Semitism which seems to exist everywhere (based on public opinion polls). There is a correlation among the level of political correctness, the number of Muslim immigrants, and anti-Semitism; however, it is still widespread all across Europe.

I don't expect to see significant publicly-expressed support for Israel in Europe during my lifetime.

But the Berlin Wall came down, which I also didn't expect to happen in my lifetime. So anything's possible.

kepiblanc said...

Baron --

As I've stated many times : There is no anti-semitism in Denmark - None, nada, zilch, zero. If you can show me just one example (aside from Muslims) I'll eat my kepi. Denmark is probably the safest place on earth for Jews - Israel included.

Zerosumgame said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Fellow Peacekeeper said...

Baron,

While its true that there is a divide in Europe, its hardly black and white. National generalizations are always dangerous, that was my main issue with Sisyphus.

"I don't expect to see significant publicly-expressed support for Israel in Europe during my lifetime."

I presume meaning "old europe" - but how significant would that have to be? Does a speech like this count - or are we talking UN general assembly significant?

Speaking at the American Jewish Committee (AJC) annual meeting in Washington, German Chancellor Angela Merkel denounced Iran and the Palestinian militant group Hamas for questioning Israel's right to exist.

"The right of existence of the state of Israel must never be questioned," Merkel said at a gala event in Washington celebrating the 100th anniversary of the influential American Jewish Committee. "This is why it is intolerable for any German government when the Iranian president questions the right of Israel's existence."

Baron Bodissey said...

Zerosumgame —

Your long URL messed up the post width. I turned the URLs into links. Please make links if you have long URLS.

Zerosumgame said...
kepiblanc:

There is no anti-semitism in Denmark - None, nada, zilch, zero.

You just waved the red cape in front of the bull when you said that:

1) Survey of Danes,showing a lot of them hold negative stereotypes of Jews.

Link.

2) Survey in 2003 of the virulent Jew-hatred expressed in Denmark after Israel's anti-terrorist incursion in 2002, and not just by Muslims:

Link.

3) More about the fanatic, insane level of Jewhatred in your country with no anti-semitism when Israel tries to defend itself:

Link.

Shall I go on?

Baron Bodissey said...

Fellow Peacekeeper --

You're right; that's pretty good support, coming from a European. I am pleasantly surprised.

Zerosumgame said...

Baron,

I'm actually technically fairly competent, but have not posted links on a Blogger blogsite before.

How do I do it?

Baron Bodissey said...

To add a link in a comment, use this format:
<a href="http://mywebsite.com">My Title</a>

If you ever look at the post separately (i.e. using the permalink), you'll see this instruction in the top of the comments. But I haven't figured out a way to get it to appear in the popup comment window.

War. On Tv. said...

Off topic, but could any of you teach me a bit of Danish? I'm doing a post-grad degree in Viking and Anglo-Saxon studies and need to learn a Scandinavian language, but ironically, since I have an American passport, I won't be permitted to live in Denmark for any considerable period of time.

However, on topic...I think European press is to blame. I've lived in France and Britain, and every day you can find pages and pages on the threat America poses to Europe...but the recent anti-terror arrests in Canada, Britain, and in America barely make the cut. No wonder my British roommate said tonight, "I'm much more afraid of Bush and Blair! I'd rather live with more terrorist attacks than intrusive security." I'm assuming that she means it's ok as long as she only sees them on tv...War on tv is much safer. You can change the channel before you hit the bad bits. Or before the bad bits hit you, I suppose.

Zonka said...

I like to tackle this from a slightly different perspective. If you look at the Danish situation from the surface, it will seem as Anti-Uffe said that there are some anti-dhimmitude events but there are also quite some dhimmitude events... But the main difference here is that while there are a few true multi-culturalists and very few totalitarians as such, most of those that expresses the views of the multi-culturalists and totalitarians do it out of expedience, not because they necessarily believe in the sentiments... kind of running with the crowd!

But where my hope for the Danes lie is that Danes in general don't just buy the party line from the politicians, they are a sceptical lot, which is seen in the various EEC later EU referendums where the politicians were (almost) unitedly for and yet the people voted no!

With the issue of Islam, most of the time when I talk to Danes about this issue, I encounter people who aren't aware of the roots of the problem and as they are unaware they speak the party line (It's only a few extremists, Islam as such is a peaceful religion but being hijacked by... you know the rest...) but when I explain things, putting stuff into context, showing the appropriate Qu'ran verses that supports the views of the terrorists, etc. I usually see people change their views and start to get interested in knowing more. So the dhimmitude-layer on many Danes are very thin, and vanishes quickly with even a quick rub of facts. And the Motoon affair did a good job of waking up a lot of Danes, and those that aren't completely awake yet they are slumbering uneasily.

So Anti-Uffe is right to point out that Denmark is not a haven of anti-dhimmitude, but at the same time there's a large undercurrent of unfocused dissatisfaction or "fed-up-ness" with Islam and the whining of the muslims... A common attitude is "Why don't they just get a job, take care of their family, and try to fit into society -- instead of living on welfare, let their children run rampant and trying to make society fit them!" And as I said above it generally doesn't take much to get a Dane to brush away the political correct ideas about Islam, just arm him with some information and facts!

Which brings me to another point... The Political Correctness movement never really caught on in Denmark, sure we have multi-culturalists, cultural-relativists, fringe leftists etc. But the linguistic part of the PC culture never found a solid foothold here, which means that it's easier to debate things without being derailed by the PC culture.

As for the anti-americanism, yes it exists in Europe and Denmark, just as anti-europeanism exist in the US. Personally I think in Europe (at least, can't talk for the US) it is mostly about politics -- most European leaders don't want to be caught agreeing with the Americans too much and thus have to regularly issue anti-american propaganda, and the same is true for the regular Europeans -- but one has to make the distinction that it is not an all encompassing anti-americanism, it's directed towards the american politicians not the people. I hope the same is true in the US. Personally I am a bit disgusted though with the way certain European governments and politicians are, not just disagreeing with the US government, which is their right -- but to openly urinate up and down the legs of Americans and then tell them that it rains is just downright disgusting and appalling -- and unfortunately the same happens the other way around... Time to grow up on both sides of the pond, because frankly we need each other more than most of us probably care to admit!

Europe most likely won't last without a strong America, and if Europe falls it's only a matter of time before the US falls!

Zonka said...

PS. War.ontv...

You might want to read: Studying in Denmark from the Danish Immigration Service.

Archonix said...

Lets be clear, polls are easilly manipulated to say anything you want. Even these polls that seem favourable to us, the ones that show europe becoming more sane, are probably the result of some manipulation at some level. I don't trust polls any more than I trust the tax man.

Further, I want to make it absolutely clear that European nations, by and large, are not free as most people would understand the term. Our media companies march in lock-step with the big subsidised media companies, policy is decided by those same media companies on and off, and the people are kept asleep by a continual drip-feed of sedatory trivia and intrigue. I have said this before, and I will say it again: the peoples of this continent are living under a deception. When they spout anti-americanism it's because they don't know any better, because all the year from the media is how evil america (and, to a lesser extent, the jews) really are. And despite all of this there is still a much larger minority supporting the US stance than the media folks would like.

I've heard it estimate that in the American war of independence about a third of the peple were opposed, a third supporting and a third uncaring. I have no absolute proof, but I suspect that you'll find about the same split here concerning the war on terror.

Now I gladly accept that our governments are in various stages of dhimmitude - especially the EU itself - which is why we have this problem. The people themselves simply haven't learned the truth yet. Despite what we bloggers like to think, the vast majority of people don't read us and hear our views, or if they do they're filtered through the lens of the media that fear us. It is not, therefore, a surprise when most people, who have known nothing but the drip-feed of the msm for their entire lives, mindlessly spout the same rubbish over and over again. The simply don't know any better. They are literally children in this regard.

Now the thing about children is, they grow up. Eventually this infantile europe will grow up, and I would hate to think that you have abandoned them merely because they acted like children.

Going back to my comment about freedom, I suspect it must be strange for a lot of people to realise this. The nations of western europe appear to be free, affluent democracies but they are nothing of the sort. Life is regulated and legislated to a point where it is not possible to break the law simply doing things that people would do every day. Freedom of speech is no longer guaranteed, human rights legislation has put paid to any kind of equality before the law and the governments of europe, to a greater or lesser degree, passively monitor most forms of communication all the time. It came as quite a shock to me when I realised it, because I had assumed that we were free people. I had learned some history from books, about the great kings of old, the civil wars, magna carta and all that stuff and assumed it was still that way today. I was a child, up to about the age of 18, and I had picked up that vague anti-american sentiment.

Two things shocked me out of it. The first was learning that, while I was still a child in the early 80s, my parents had been terrified of social services coming to take me away. The had gone so far as to draw up an escape plan if they ever came calling. Thatcher was in at the time and was half way through making her reforms of the country, but the socialist rot that had lead to that fear had set in during the 50s and reached a peak in the late 70s. The DSS was, at that point, a thoroughly socialist organisation conducting a literal witch-hunt.

The second was finding the internet, which led me to find out the true nature of the EU, alternative media and just how little of what I had been told about the outside world was really true. The net saved me from my dellusions. Thanks to my parents I was not the most deluded out there to begin with, yet I had still succumbed to the lies of the BBC.

In western europe the word "freedom" has quietly been substituted as a synonym for "choice". We have "choice" when it comes to picking which channels we watch, but we don't have the freedom to watch tem without paying a tax to the government. We have "choice" when it comes to choosing schools, but we don't have the freedom to send our children to any school we like thanks to certain legislation that forces you to send your children to schools in your ill-defined educational authority area or move house. We have choice in lots of things, but when it comes to the crunch we don't have the freedom to pick an alternative that isn't offered by those who claim to know what's good for us. And where we do have that freedom, we're quietly but persistently discouraged from making the choice by the verbal equivalent of a mild electric shock until, like rats in a maze, we follow the course those over us want to follow, not quite understanding why we can't take this path instead of that one, yet fearful of doing so because we know what might just happen if we do. Not death. If it was death that was offered, people might be perversly less afraid to fight. What we face instead is the worse fate of thousand tiny humiliations at the hands of an uncaring beurocracy and the label of social outcast, racist, bigot or just plain old bastard.

And that is why we're not truly free, and why the people of europe cannot, and should not, be held responsible for the actions of our "elite" governments. Those dhimmi countries you mention are simply the worst afflicted.

Archonix said...
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Archonix said...

I should add, for the puposes of the fight, as it were, I do belive it's fair to assume that most people on this side of the pond will pick the wrong side, not through free will but because that's all they know how to do. I hate making matrix comparisons, but this one stands: while they are under the system they are either powerless, or agents of that system. As long as they're not for us, they are effectively against us.

Inside, most people know that socialism, multiculturalism and the like don't work, but the follow along because they don't know of anything else. They're trapped in the system, so don't know any better, and in that sense it's fair to dismiss and ignore them. Don't make the mistake of assuming that those criticising America are doing so through their own free will. Without the full gamut of information their "choice" is really no choice at all.

kepiblanc said...

zerosumgame --

You just waved the red cape in front of the bull when you said that: There is no anti-semitism in Denmark

I finally got the time to read all of the links you provided. And I don't regret it. After reading them I feel even more confident than ever about my above statement. The bull certainly ran for the red cape, but missed the toreador....

The polls in your first link are about beliefs, thoughts, feelings, opinions, mainly concerning Israeli politics and whether Jews are responsible for this and that, including the death of Jesus. I guess you would get exactly the same numbers if you polled about Swedes being responsible for this and that, including poisoning our air with exhaust from Volvo's and Saab's - maybe even the death of Jesus. Not one single example of manifest anti-semitism.

The second link is about various Israel-related, political issues. True, some political parties, organizations and NGO's in Denmark are opposed to Israeli politics. But so are a lot of Jews, including Israeli ones. Trying to establish an unbreakable bond between Israeli politics and Jews all over the world and call every opposition outside and inside Israel anti-semitism is nothing but a cheap trick. And it merely weakens your argumentation.

The third link made me very proud, indeed. This link is about real anti-semitism, reporting actual threats and violence against Jews for being just that. And all - all - incidents described therein are committed by Muslims. Not a single one by Danes !

Today I went to my daughters graduation ceremony at her school. When all this was over several hundred parents joined socially on the lawn. A rather broad representation of a typical Danish populace. I asked something like 30 people if they had ever encountered the slightest incident of anti-semitism among Danes during their lifetime ?. Guess how many had : NONE.

I guess our discussion can move on to something less irrelevant...

Zerosumgame said...

Archonix

Inside, most people know that socialism, multiculturalism and the like don't work, but the follow along because they don't know of anything else. They're trapped in the system, so don't know any better, and in that sense it's fair to dismiss and ignore them. Don't make the mistake of assuming that those criticising America are doing so through their own free will. Without the full gamut of information their "choice" is really no choice at all.

Archonix, you are contradicting yourself in that paragraph. In the first sentence, you say that Europeans know socialism and multiculturalism do not work, yet in the next two sentences you say "they don't know any better" and that they are not choosing to criticize America of their own free will. If they know their system does not work, if for no other reason than what they see around them, they are certainly observant enough and (hopefully) smart enough to figure out that maybe Americans have a better way.

After all, even the most ideologically blind leftist European knows which way the brain drain is going, and it ain't toward Europe. They know which way the Jews will be going (although as good Europeans, this likely makes them happy).

Look, I have run into enough people that fled the Soviet Union (and Poland) here in America to know that even with the far more total control of information that the Soviets had, even most Russians knew America was a far better place.

If the Western, Northern and Southern Europeans really think that America is as bad as their media tells them, when their elite do not have as total control over the flow of information, then I think it is because it is really what they want to believe; not because they are forced to believe it.

Zerosumgame said...

kepiblanc,

OK, let me try and explain this one last time.

This anti-Israel hatred IS anti-semitism. Over what other country do Europeans get so angry because it wants to defend itself from Nazis (which is EXACTLY what the Palis are). When Europe has a double standard that does not allow the only Jewish nation on the planet to defend itself that is anti-semitism!

This is why your statement about anti-semitism cannot be taken at face value. You think it is OK for Europeans to irrationally bash Israel without calling it anti-Semitism. For the millionth time, it is anti-semitism. Jew-hatred. Judenhass.

Finally, with regards to Muslims, you can't just dismiss the attacks on Jews because Muslims do it. These Muslims are on YOUR soil. Many are Danish citizens. You can't just dismiss it because they are not blond-haired, blue-eyed, and nominally Lutheran.

Jews cannot take comfort in that these people are not native Danes. No matter who does it, if Denmark tolerates it, then all of Denmark is guilty.

kepiblanc said...

zerosumgame --

No one in Denmark questions Israel's right to exist - aside from Muslims. And Muslims are NOT Danes.
A lot of Danish Jews (yes, they're Danes) oppose the politics of Mr. Olmert, others that of Mr. Peres. That hardly makes them anit-semitic, does it ?

And Denmark does NOT tolerate violence, no matter who is the doer and who is the victim.

BTW : By the end of next week the trial of an entire Pakistani family of nine who executed a newly-wed daughter will come to a verdict. I'll try to keep you posted.

Archonix said...
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Archonix said...

Gotta check my posts before I hit submit...

Archonix, you are contradicting yourself in that paragraph. In the first sentence, you say that Europeans know socialism and multiculturalism do not work, yet in the next two sentences you say "they don't know any better" and that they are not choosing to criticize America of their own free will.

It isn't a contradiction to consciously say one thing and subconsciously believe another. The very fact that it's subconscious would mitigate against it being openly expressed, and the concomittant subconscious guilt felt by that person would make their conscious decision-making even more opposed to their subconscious knowledge.

I realise I made a long post, and that this probably isn't teh best forum to answer it, but you could have at least made an effort to look past your increasingly obvious prejudice* and actually answer some of my points.

And yes, prejudice. Pre-judgement. You've made up your mind and no amount of argument seems able to sway you. In that sense you're in the same position as the "europeans" you're so quick to dismiss as a lost cause. When the black flag of islam is flying over our capitals, then you'll have reason to judge europe as a lost cause. Until then you should be putting effort in to assisting those of us who know the truth to help our people.

If the Western, Northern and Southern Europeans really think that America is as bad as their media tells them, when their elite do not have as total control over the flow of information, then I think it is because it is really what they want to believe; not because they are forced to believe it.

The government doesn't need total control over information to achieve that particular goal. All it needs is the ability to twist and twitch the information in subtle ways. Those living under the soviets knew something was wrong because it was so blindlingly obvious and unsubtle; soviet propaganda had very little relationship to the reality they lived in. The propoganda put out by the BBC and its relatives is close enough to reality to seem plausible, and has had that advantage for the last 50 or more years. When you're working with such subtelties it's not necessary to totally control information; all you have to do is put about the idea that you are the final, trusted authority for information and that the other information is incomplete. It's very easy to do this when you have a state broadcaster with enough money to drive the others out of business. Nobody is forced to believe anything. They've given a choice, that pseudo-freedom I spoke of before, though in reality it's no choice at all.

eatyourbeans said...

This is a fascinating discussion. May I offer one American's perspective?

To begin with, I love and revere Europe as the source and parent of our civilization. In many ways I like it better there than here. That said, you couldn't pay me to change lives with you.

As I understand it, you Europeans do not have our Bill of Rights, and must watch what you say. It's even possible that some of you could be hauled into criminal court for what you might write here. Is this true? This would intolerable to us! Sorry. We're just too used to our 1st Amendment to change our ways. (By the way, can you blame us for NOT submitting to the whims of so-called international tribunals?)

In this connection I'd like to mention our 2nd Amendment, the right to possess firearms. I hear this issue drives you Europeans nuts, but we consider it to be the protector of all our other freedoms. If our elites tread more softly than yours it's partly because they know we won't stand for it if they get too uppity.

Hopefully, our Moslems are bright enough to understand this too, but I doubt it.

Lastly, I'd be interested in hearing how you think things will eventually turn out. For all your refined ways and fancy talk, you have a very bloody history.

Please don't take that as a reproach.

Archonix said...

Further, as I said in my post, it's highly likely that there are more people who don't believe that rot about america than you give credit. The left controls the flow of information enough to make sure that the dissenters don't get to say their piece. The idea of the state as the trusted authority gives these people more than enough power. THey don't need to beat people over the head with blatant propaganda; they simply need to keep inserting subtle digs and sly remarks in to their output, leaving those of us who believe differently to think that we're alone. Even with the knowledge that we aren't alone, the ingrained idea of the BBC, or whomever, as the trusted source is hard to shake off, and there's the latent fear of being "caught" frequenting other sources of information, and being "outed" as a bigot or racist. IT doesn't matter that this is as likely to happen as a cheesecake is to gow wings and turn in to a flying pig, but fear is a very powerful emotion, and the fear of being socially outcast is perhaps worse than the fear of death in a lot of people.

bordergal said...

From National Review-

Thought this was interesting with regards to the current disucssion.

"I have a friend who attended an academic conference in Scandinavia, and I thought you’d enjoy — or at least be interested in — what she had to say:

“Over lunch, I asked one of the sharper guys about the problem of Islamic fascism in Scandinavian cities. He admitted that there are now no-go areas for police in certain cities. He said that no one in mainstream society will talk about it. They’re all too afraid.

He said,‘The only ones who are writing about what’s happening in European cities are American conservatives — so, please: Keep up the good work.’”

Archonix said...

Wow, I'm commenting so much today...

For all your refined ways and fancy talk, you have a very bloody history.

I reckon this is to our advantage, oddly enough. Yamamoto called America the sleeping tiger. Europe, I believe, is a qiescent lion. We're certainly a lot harder to rouse than the americans but, when roused, we fight like demons. This has pros and cons, the largest being that we're very uncivilised once we turn to war. I suspect, though, that an uncivilised war is what is needed to rouse us in the first place.

It's hard to predict how things weill turn out. The EU will play a huge factor in this, simply because those driving the project, as it's called, are attempting to fragment the old nations of europe in to smaller, easier to handle chunks for administrative purposes, but also in order to break down the traditional ties to the nation-state that bind people together. Without those ties they reason that the people will be easier to keep in line and less likely to try and leave the union. They're probably right, but there's the unintended side-effect of creating ten small nations that are easier for an islamic takeover to pick off, when one large country would be very hard.

The EU coule collapse. If it goes fast and hard, there might be war, but the countries involved will recover much faster. If it takes a long time and flops around while it dies, there will be war at the end, and it will devastate the continent as badly as the last two. In both cases I see Islam playing a large part.

The ideal situation would be the dissolution of the EU and the re-imposition of effective immigration controls - that are currently completely ineffective because they're controlled by the EU - followed by a period of consolidation, where immigrants are asked to assimilate or leave. The way things are I don't see that happening...

Baron Bodissey said...

Folks, I just wanted everyone to know that this is a great discussion thread; lots of things to think about here. I hope Zerosumgame and kepiblanc can find a weltanschaaung that can encompass both their viewpoints -- for now, though, they seem mutually exclusive.

My own personal view is that anyone (Jews included) who holds Israel to a different standard of behavior than other contries vis-a-vis its national defense is, de facto, anti-Semitic. You can dress that pig up in a bow and put lipstick on it, but it still goes "OINK!"

Archonix -- you might want to consider gathering up your material here to make a post on your blog. It's very good.

Zonka -- I like your update take on things. One can only hope that you're representative of the Danes in general!

Thomas said...

Is Europe dying?

Yes, in some areas. In Germany, for instance, the areas which once comprised the former East Germany have extremely low birthrates. However, other regions, such as Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, have birthrates above the replacement rates. These regions are Germany's high-tech powerhouses, and are inhabited by conservative, hard-working people.

While it may provide a delicious frisson of anticipation (similar to watching a slasher flick) to imagine a future Europe dominated by hordes of Muslims and containing only remnant populations of native Europeans, the reality is more complicated.

Even now, there are more Germans under the age of 17 than there are Muslims in all of Europe.

And do not imagine that all of these countries will allow the Islamic conquest to proceed peacefully. There is already a mounting tension and resentment by ordinary Europeans against the perceived giving away of their countries. Europe has a history of bloody wars; why should the leopard change its stripes?

One thing that amazes me about "Gates of Vienna" and similar blogs is your silence on Kosovo. The Serbs were responding to what they perceived as an Islamic threat to their homeland. In the distant future, this may be viewed as the first of many wars to decide the fate of Europe. What really happened in Kosovo?

Archonix said...

Baron, thanks for the suggestion, I've been thinking about exactly that. I don't want to monopolise the conversation now.

For the record the blog is now here.

bordergal said...

The EU is going to be hard to kill....from the Brussels Journal.


So we’re all agreed. One year after the “no” votes, the leaders of the EU have decided to make the text binding by 2009. The new Italian government says it interprets the “no” votes as “a demand for more Europe, not less”. The Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt suggests changing the rules so that the European Constitution may be adopted by a qualified majority vote. The Austrian Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel says that ratification should be completed in 2007. Angela Merkel says the text is “vital to German interests”. The European Commission plans to push ahead with as much of the constitution as it can, with or without formal approval.

Baron Bodissey said...

Thomas,

We haven't been "silent" on Kosovo -- it's been mentioned here ant there on this blog -- but we haven't focused on it yet, either.

We're getting to it, though. I happen to know that Dymphna has been researching the destruction of Orthodox churches and cathedrals in Kosovo by the Muslims. We'll cover it eventually.

So little time, so many Muslim atrocities...

eatyourbeans said...

Thomas, Kosovo. Damn good question!

Personally, I sided with the Serbs, but when your soldiers are in battle, your duty is to pray for their good success, which I did. And do.
Sometimes it's hard being on the (in the American sense) "Right"; we're still bound by the rule "My country, right or wrong."
In Kosovo we were cynically, foolishly wrong.

Thomas said...

The destruction/desecration of cathedrals and Christian holy places would not excuse the wholesale slaughter of civilians, as the Serbs were supposed to have done.

I've wondered if the MSM reported Kosovo accurately, since they get so much else wrong. Most of the civilian death toll, the "ethnic cleansing" was attributed to the Serbs. While I'm sure that natives of the area can tell a local Moslem from a local Christian, to the rest of us they seem pretty similar. Dead Moslems, dead Serbs, or ????

BTW, I'm not a big fan of the Serbs. Their antics caused WWI, broke up the Austro-Hungarian Empire, resulting in my family's expulsion from a pleasant, fertile area of Central Europe.

eatyourbeans said...

Those Serbs. Hmmm...I'll defer to you on that one.
RE: Austria-Hungary. It was my impression that the Allied powers were behind the dismantling of the A-H empire. Some crappydoodle about national self determination. Boy, did that one bite them all in the arse 20 years later!

Also, it's funny how the EU is a sort of Habsburg empire, only without any of its class.

But this is a digression. Sorry.

War. On Tv. said...

Yeah, I've tried that link. The problem with a lot of it is that in order to take Danish classes, you have to already possess a visa for Denmark. Same for study at a University...You are elligible for Danish classes only if you already have a visa to live there. The Danish classes I can find are only for migrant workers. Furthermore, I can't sign up to do a PhD course there, because I have to first pass a Danish language course.

To be perfectly honest, I've already given up on the idea of living in Scandinavia. If you're American and not working in science, the chances of getting a visa are virtually nil. It seems that I've started an area of study that politics won't allow me to finish. It does amaze me that Scandinavia, with such strict politicies for non-EU westerners, can have such a large number of immigrants from moslem countries. Are they mostly illegal? Or are they family members of legal immigrants?

At any rate, it is clear to me that European press has done it's best to shill for the EU in an attempt to promote Europe as a good counterbalance to American power. I'll give a good example...I was living in France during the tsunami crisis. Granted, Bush was a couple of days behind realizing what we should do. But, in the end, he helped organize a massive aid relief plan outside of the UN. Europe was much slower in coming to help...All over the French press, in both left wing and right wing papers, America was being vilified. I saw cartoons pointing out that this was just America again being unilateral (ignoring the fact that Britain, Japah, and Australia were all earnestly involved), because we were power hungry. One op-ed in a paper in Lille actually said that Americans were only interested because "we loved seeing the death and carnage on our tv screens." After all this bluster, France only managed to toss $30,000,000 into the coffers. It's worth noting that this was also the sum given by China, a country that isn't widely known for it's humanitarian relief efforts.

Of course this media bombardement leads to silly ideas like "Iran is often more liberal than the United States." That's a quote from one of my flatmates. Or "The Americans only got involved with WW2 because they wanted to make money off of us." That's a quote from a
French friend. Or, one of my favorites that I've heard many times "The Jews are the cause of all the world's problems. They didn't learn anything from the Holocaust." That one is also from the French...No wonder the general perception is that Bush is a religious maniac, but Adolfdinijad is a freedom fighter. I personally think that modern european anti-semitism is more of a symptom of a bigger problem than the problem itself. Europe needs to come to grips with who it is, and with how their American cousins fit into the picture before they can focus on the future. I thought the French and Dutch rejection of the constitution would bring some much needed soul-searching (and open democracy) into the european dialogue. My question is why does the EU seem to have such disdain for its citizens? We can speculate all day about why they don't like the US, but why do they hate themselves? It seems like the entire continent is filled with this self-destructive punk anarchy teenage angst. Is this all post-WW2 malaise?

Archonix said...

It does amaze me that Scandinavia, with such strict politicies for non-EU westerners, can have such a large number of immigrants from moslem countries. Are they mostly illegal?

By and large the scandanavian bloc are all signatories of the schengen agreement (which is disturbingly similar to the customs union that Bismark used to unite the german federation, now that I think about it). Travel between schengen countries is completely unmonitored and open, but there isn't an equivalent EU-wide immigration agreement in place - and I hope to god there never is, because it'll be a shambles. Anyway, what this means is that immigrants can land in, say, southern spain or southern italy, claim asylum and then, once past that hurdle, move anywhere within the EU to actually claim their citizenship. Schengen countries have a hard time throwing them out because they simply move to another country where they get an easier time (Great Britain in this case, since our immigration service is in a complete mess these days thanks to the EU), tget their citizenship and then move back. Once you're a citizen of a schengen country you can become a citien of any other schengen country with relative ease. Not that you actually need to do so unless you want to join the army or something.