Sunday, June 18, 2006

Denmark is a Symbol

Reader Zerosumgame writes in the comments of yesterday’s translation of the Bertel Haarder editorial:

Baron & Dymphna:

Map of DenmarkI understand the symbolic, psychological and significance of the Danish cartoons.

Having said that, I’m not sure that posting so much on this one issue is really providing an accurate reflection on the state of European resistance to jihad, Islamicization, anti-Semitism and the defense of “old European” culture (of which, actually, anti-Semitism is an integral part).

As I have stated before, I think it is foolhardy to invest too much hope in the Danes “holding out” against the Islamofascist tide, and getting the rest of Europe (or at least its Western, Northern and Southern parts).

Denmark has perhaps 5 million people. The EU in its entirety probably has 400 million. Among the large population EU countries, only Poland is likely sympathetic to the Danish struggle against the Islamofascist tide. The rest see the Danes as the bigots.

I don’t see much hope for Denmark holding out against all her neighbors as they fall to Islam, unless she becomes an armed nuclear fortress like Israel, and I think even the Danes here know that THAT is not going to happen.

Zonka answered the above comments with this:

What you have said would make sense if it was truly Denmark’s 5 million people vs. the 400 million of Europe, but it’s not! Large segments of the European population are more aligned with the Danish sentiments than with their governments! And the cries of Denmark being bigoted, islamophobic and generally xenophobic are becoming fewer than it was just a year ago!

So Denmark is not a big powerhouse or fortress, but it is a symbol to the rest of the Europeans that there is another alternative than the one followed by their governments and it is working, albeit slowly — So don’t discount the value of symbols! Use it instead, to make it much more powerful than the demographics suggest!

I have to admit that I’m with Zonka. It may well be that we’re focusing too much here on Denmark. But, from a viewpoint across the Atlantic, Denmark is an inspiring example.

The leaders of most of the other European nations, regardless of what their citizens may feel, fall all over themselves to appease the Muslims. Their public utterances are so full of multicultural pieties that you and I can recite them in advance. They are unwilling to name the enemy and confront the grave problem facing them.

But Denmark… Danish leaders and public figures openly say what the rest of Europe dares not. In some of the stricter PC regimes, such as Belgium, they would likely be under legal sanction for what they say.

It may be that Denmark will not withstand the Islamic onslaught. The Danes may well cave to anti-Semitism, or be cowed into submission. They may only hold out a year or a decade longer than Sweden before they are overrun.

But they hold up a mirror to us here in America, and remind us of the future that is careening towards us, and demonstrate a way to face it with dignity.

It may be that the Danes as a nation are the equivalent of Fabrizio Quattrochi. Are they in fact doomed hostages, held captive by violent and barbaric thugs? If so, they are ripping the hoods off their heads and showing the world how a Dane dies.

They deserve our support. And, in any case, their situation is instructive.

So I’ll continue to follow affairs in Denmark until the star-and-crescent flies over Christiansborg, and the mermaid statue is blown to rubble as infidel idolatry.

With the that in mind, here is a translation from the Danish sent by reader jdm, prefaced by his notes in italics:

The following was published as a letter to the editor of Jyllands-Posten on June 17th. It is apparently not written in reaction to Haarder’s column of June 15th. This letter is, however, certainly a part of the Danish national discussion.

If the sentences seem overly long, they are. Danish is prone to run-on sentences and many Danes, like this writer, take full advantage.

NB, Uffe Elleman-Jensen is mentioned. I don’t know if it’s important or if anyone even cares, but UEJ was the foreign minister in the first “right-wing” or, as they say in Danish, bourgeois government of the 80s after many years of a Social Democrat monopoly of power. A strong supporter of NATO and the EU while a foreign minister, he seems confused by the present enemy, Islamism. He has made a number of rash statements recently that indicate that he either doesn’t understand the nature of the enemy or refuses to accept it.


*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

If Haarder is Laying Down His Weapon...

It seems like there is no more hope: now Bertel Haarder has laid down his weapon and surrendered to the dark powers which will destroy freedom of speech through threats and violence against those who will not recognize the demands of some religious fanatics to decide what may be said or drawn in the Danish media.

That someone like Uffe Elleman-Jensen does the bidding of these Islamists cannot surprise anyone.

He has probably been promised a position as arch-imam from the Saudis after Islam takes control of Denmark.

But that Bertel Haarder has given up under the pressure from those immigrant groups who have declared as their goal the destruction of democracy in Denmark — the man, who more than any other, has been a guarantor for many Danes that things will never get so far [out of hand] — this is too much to bear.

Bertel Haarder, do you remember Nicolas Blaedel, the journalist of whom the Germans in the 30s, that is long before the German occupation, demanded and won his removal from the editorial board of Berlingske Tidende because he wrote the unpleasant truth of the Nazis’ devastation of Germany? It’s true, is it not, that there are certain similarities with the situation we’re in today?

You are not just anybody, Bertel Haarder. You are a member of the present government and therefore an important voice in the public debate.

Your recent admissions will, with an unfortunate guarantee, be welcomed with satisfaction in Riyadh and interpreted as an expression of Danish capitulation to the Islamic operations here in this country.

These words are hate speech. They are doubleplus ungood. The Thought Police will surely find this letter-writer and escort him to Mandatory Diversity Training.

33 comments:

Exile said...

Having read both comments from Zonka and Zerosumgame, I feel I need to add my 2 cents..
Evil can only succeed if good men stay silent. If only one good man stands up and says plainly what is true, then we still have a hope of exposing islamic evil for what it it is.
There are luckily, more than one good men left here in Denmark.
And they will not be silent. The Danish approach to these thugs is working. We do not have the problems that Sweden and Germany has. It could be, that if they followed our lead, they too would make greater progress in the undeclared (or unrecognised) war that is being waged against us.
I for one, will not sit idly by and let them take over. And I do not believe that the other 5 million good people in this country will either, when push finally comes to shove.
Do not underestimate the Danes. National pride is rife here.

Dymphna said...

Dane-doubters would do well to read of their record against the Nazis in WWII when it came to "rounding up the Jews." The Jews who weren't able to get to Sweden (with the Danes' help) were sent to a Czech camp where the Danish Red Cross closely followed their progress and stayed on the situation like -- like, say, chocolate on New Orleans -- with the result that few died in captivity (the elderly and infirm) and NONE were sent to extermination camps.

The Danes know there is more than one way to skin a cat. This particular cat -- fascistic impingement from outside groups -- they have already done once within living memory and will do again.

Some of us stand with Israel. Some of us are beginning to stand with the Danes.

The numbers of Danes vs the numbers of Euro sheep are not relevant. Those Euro sheep are looking for sheep dogs, and the Danes may be their answer.

And, yeah, the Baron may be posting "too much" on the Danish situation, but what do you expect after the scorched earth policy of its traitorous imam instigators? Or the incredible international pressure on Denmark to give up its separation of state and journalism? This mau-mauing by Middle East groups, by Denmark's own retired diplomats, and some of the diehard Danish socialists needs a strong light to kill off the virus.

Besides,if we keep it up, maybe I can get a "Danish Freedom Medal" award (surely there is such a thing) and a free trip to Denmark. Preferably not in January.

Danes rock, from the Queen all the way down.

And congratulations to any Muslim who has decided to integrate and become a proud Danish citizen.

Now: wouldn't you have liked to have been a fly on the wall when President Bush and Anders Fogh Rasmussen were chatting recently? I'll bet Bush got to learn a few things about clear communication.

kepiblanc said...

Dymphna, my house will be open to you and the Baron anytime. And in Denmark January is a good time for sitting at the fireplace talking about this and that and one thing and another....

And I agree with exile and Zonka : I travel a lot around Europe and never encounter any hostility towards Danes. To the contrary, in fact. The problem with Europe is that governments are so completely disconnected from the average citizen - and reality.

But maybe Danes differ in at least one respect : We tend to be rather easy-going and don't take ourselves too seriously. Sometimes that trait can be a disadvantage, but more often than not a healthy laughter puts things in a proper perspective - thus giving the Muslims here a run for their money with their seething, screaming and behaving generally. Likewise with our local moonbats ad useful idiots : I think most Danes fit in nicely with "The Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto" (for those who don't know that term, please go to Wikipedia).

And, yes there is such a thing as a Freedom Medal. In fact several. One of them (The Freedom Prize of Danish Liberal Party) was awarded by PM Fogh Rasmussen to Ayaan Hirsi Ali in 2004.

We appreciate your support very much. - Oh...and : We will NOT surrender.

Adaneshju said...

I saw a Dick Morris interview once in which he stated that roughly "The thing to keep in mind about the French electorate is that about 15-20% of them vote for far-right holocaust denying parties, and another ~30% vote for what are basically communist parties. You've got to startoff with the assumption that almost 1/2 of the French electorate is just crazy!" (rough)

I often keep this in mind when considering european politics because I think to us Americans, it's safe to assume that a large percentage of European politicians ARE "insane"--at least when we're talking about the French, Germans, Spanish, etc. Things just don't make sense to us.

In short, I hope Dymphna and the Baron and various contributors to the blog are 100% right about Denmark and the EU as a whole, but I ain't holding my breath..

Scott said...

It may well be that the Danes, or a
Danish company ( no not ARLA) will
really free the west from Islamo-
fascism. Novozymes is a big Danish
outfit with global reach in biotech
for industrial uses.

I bought some Novozymes ADS last
year because of its expertise in
making cellulosic ethanol via an
enzyme that will break down the
organic material absent heat. Sort
of like making whiskey without a
still. Vary efficient and judging
from the movement in the stockprice
( gone from $52 to $66) others with
a lot more expertise than I seem to
agree.

I was a bit disheartened by Danish
PM Rasmussen's visit to the US. His
focus on Guantanamo is all so very
EUish. Guantanamo is becoming like
Dachau or Auschwitz in the minds of
Euroleftists even if it is by any
reasonable standard a model prison.
Koran's are not 'flushed down the
toilet' nor are prisoners tortured.

We would release large numbers of
these louts but we can't find any
country to take them other than the
ones they came from and if we send
them there they will find out what
real torture is all about.

Its way past time for the Europeans
to get real and realize these are
not just 'innocent Muslim travelers
scooped up by the US armed forces
but folks whose 'suicides' would
have been far more devastating had
they not occured in their US prison
cell at Guantanamo.

Zerosumgame said...

First,

I must express my thanks to Baron and Dymphna for highlighting my comments respectfully, even though I know they do not, for the most part, agree with them.

I also noticed that someone likened Denmark to Fabbrizio Quattrocchi. This analogy may prove to be more apt than you realize.

While Fabbrizzio died a hero, he still died in vain. He is dead, his murderers are still alive and killing, and Italy thanked his memory by electing a cowardly, spineless, Islamofascist-appeasing leftist government that is now rewarding his killers by turning tail and running.

I think the same will happen to Denmark. Yes, some in the West (outside of the leftist elite) will say "Oh, wow, what a brave litte country." And I think, Denmark will pay with Islamofascist terrorism killing large numbers of Danes.

But Europe as a whole, (just like Italy did), will capitulate. The Danes, just like Fabbrizio, will die in vain.

Zerosumgame said...

And let me add this response to Zonka, who said:

Large segments of the European population are more aligned with the Danish sentiments than with their governments!

Zonka,

If they are so aligned with the Danes, where are their protests in support of them?

Why is it the French can take to the streets to defend their pensions, but won't take to the streets to defend their heritage and freedom? Why are we not seeing protests by non-Muslims -- and I mean LARGE protests, with thousands of people -- in the streets of Paris and Brussels and Rome and Frankfurt, waving Danish flags, saying "No, we won't submit to Islamofascism!"

These same Europeans seem ready to denounce Israel for defending itself against a second Holocaust, or against America for freeing tens of millions of people from brutal tyranny though, don't they?

I think there is an answer for this, and as much as people do not want to admit it, they know what it is -- most of Europe has already surrendered; has already consigned "pre-Islamic" Europe to the dustbin of history.

That is why people care about pensions, even if it bankrupts the future -- because they are not having children whose future they are endangering. So what if they bankrupt the next generation? That next generation will be Muslim; today's Christian/Leftist/agnostic/aetheist Europeans do not consider that next generation to be a continuance of Europe. They see that the Europe that they have known is going to die with them, and they want to be sure that nothing is left to the "barbarians" who will control the next epoch of European history.

The most basic vote of confidence that a people can have in their future is to bring children into the world to inhabit that future. The fact that Europeans (and this goes for Eastern Europeans as well, especially Russians) are bringing in children at a rate far, far below replacement levels tells you what they really think of the future.

Therefore, why are they not protesting against Islamofascism? Simple - most won't have children living under it. They are just hoping it holds off until they are dead.

kepiblanc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Baron Bodissey said...

kepiblanc --

We try to keep our blog PG-13, which is American for "no bad langauge".

This is because some of the homeschoolers, e.g. the Common Room, send their older children over here to further their education.

Therefore I have amended your comment slightly:

kepiblanc said...

Scott--

Fogh Rasmussen didn't critize the Guantanamo for its facilities, but merely advocated that the scumbags should be tried in a court of justice. And he certainly learned his lessons about Gitmo :

About two years ago the Danish Parliament urged the US State Dept. to hand over a "Danish" citizen captured in Afghanistan or Pakistan while living in a "mujahedin training camp". Shortly after his tranfer from Gitmo to Denmark he was released ("lack of evidence"). Of course the Danish Broadcasting Company (regarding bias almost on par with the BBC) made a big show by letting the tumble****, Mr.Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane appear on TV,prime time.

He made two statements : 1. He intended to go to Czechnya in order to kill Russians (this was shortly after the Muslim massacre of 300 children). 2. He claimed it "justifiable" to kill "a legitimate target" - namely our PM and other politicians.

I don't think Mr. Fogh Rasmussen is especially eager to let any GitMohammads at large....

Zonka said...

Zerosumgame wrote: “The Danes, just like Fabbrizio, will die in vain

Aren't we being a bit dramatic here... Sure there might be some terror attacks on Denmark but a large scale ethnic cleansing of Danes... not bloody likely... There will be a full scale war before that happens, and that would take place all over Europe. The combined forces of Islam, doesn't have the strength to make a military conquest of Europe, and can only attempt to do it in a backhand way, and yes they will try and they will lose. The only question is how bloody it will be!

Zerosumgame wrote: “If they are so aligned with the Danes, where are their protests in support of them?”... I didn't say that they were falling over their own feet to express their agreement with the Danes, particularly when it's not well seen in their own countries. But if you talk to the average joe in most other European countries they would like their own governments and press to be more like the Danish ones... politicians in some European countries are starting to implement some of the same restrictions on immigration and arranged marriages etc. that the Danes have had for a long time and which drew a lot of flack from the same countries (examples are the Netherlands and even to some extent the U.K.)

So you might not see a lot of Europeans out protesting their Governments for being out of alignment with the Danish system, and frankly a lot of Europeans doesn't even know that there is a problem, because their government and press doesn't tell them... in fact they go to great lengths to decieve their own population -- when they fail to report the whole story and talks about "youths rioting" and such, instead of telling the truth "Muslim rioters"!

Secondly when for example the British police, are showing extraordinary concern for the sensitivities of the muslim protesters in the streets, and arresting peaceful protesters who are carrying "Support Denmark" banners, it makes the average Joe a little less likely to show support for something that could a) cause him trouble with the police and authorities and b) make him a target for radical muslims who would take revenge.

To sum this all up, the views that you're attributing to the Europeans are the views of the governments and the intellectual elite which unfortunately are the ones that runs for government, runs the press and pretty much is out of touch with the common people.

Denmark is unique in that respect that there isn't as wide a gap between the views of the politicians and the common people in Denmark. And that is why it is important to get the message out about what is going on in Denmark by any way possible (and I'm grateful the the Baron and Dymphna is giving the information the space here). Because the voice of Denmark can be silenced, not so much by the muslims but by not reporting it, and that is what is happening in Europe. When Denmark is being mentioned in the press, it's usually to criticize it for being bigotted, narrowminded and xenophobic, not to give a fair description of what is really going on.

And it's only by spreading the information and letting people know what it is that we're all up against that we can wake up the slumbering Europeans (including some Danes as well).

And lastly if it is our doom to die... I can tell you that we're not going silent into the night, we will make it a tale that will be remembered!

Zerosumgame said...

Zonka:

Obviously we are in complete agreement about the threat posed to Europe by Islamofascism, but in complete disagreement about Europe's ability to withstand it.

I do not therefore want to sit and rebut your entire posting, but there are several points to which I do feel a need to respond:

1) I am not advocating that there will be "ethnic cleansing" of Danes -- but I think you could see a series of bombings in public places that kill 20, 30, 40 or so people each, until Denmark gives up on its legislation that Muslims don't like. That is not "ethnic cleansing", but it is certainly meant as "cultural cleansing" -- forcing the Danes to drop any measures that would prevent Islamist culture from taking over.

2) You then go on to say that many Europeans don't even know there is a problem, because their governments and media don't tell them. How can they be in agreement with the Danes if they are not being told why the Danes are taking these measures to control Muslims? How does the typical European stop Islamofascism when he is not told about the threat? Or, if they know about the threat of Islamofascism, but try to say anything about it, they are jailed for hate speech. Belgium even banned the far right Vlaams Bok as racist because it attacked Muslims -- never mind that those same Muslims are mostly Nazis who want to see the world's remaining Jews wiped off the face of the earth. Somehow, to the EU, these Muslims are not racist, which probably says more about how much Europe still hates us Jews.

3) You point out again that the views of the elites are out of touch with the people. Again, I ask you what are "the people" doing about it? . They are not protesting, they are not rioting or revolting, they are not going on strike, they are not willing to risk going to jail, they are doing nothing to save their history, their freedom (what they have left of it) and their culture. Either the "typical" European:

a) is a coward
b) has been so brainwashed by Marxist Multiculturalism that they no longer think their culture is worth defending
c) does not really think very differently from the elites -- and in the case of America, Jews and Israel, we know from opinion polls that this is the case, and finally
d) all of the above

I know you want to believe that somehow Denmark will get through all this. I'm telling you that it won't. Neither will the rest of Europe.

Those such as yourself who cannot bear the thought of living under these Islamofascist thugs will seriously have to consider leaving. This is not an outrageous statement; more than 50,000 Dutch-born citizens leave Holland every year for good; they already see the handwriting on the wall.

kepiblanc said...

Baron --

Sorry, I must try to control my keybord better than my big mouth.

Zerosumgame --

Your pessimistic view of Denmark - and Europe - simply escapes me. Come over and you will certainly cheer up.
BTW : those Dutchmen, to where do they leave ? - Do they really think America is any safer ? - And rather than leave my country in the illusive hope that islamofascism will stop when EUrabia is defeated I prefer to stay and fight. Bo doing so I may save America as well. You deserve it.

Archonix said...

erosumgame, you forgot an option in your "masterful" assessment of this european continent: that the people are simply decieved. Why do you have so much trouble believing that this could be so? People don't protest because they are deceived by the government and the press about the real scale of the problem, and about the real scale of the opposition to islam and islamic immigration. Remember, in almost all of these countries the state controls or funds at least one broadcaster, and often several; with a guaranteed income stream they quickly become far left liars, twisting the news to fit their agenda, and with that same income stream they become behemoths and colossi, able to effectively dictate the direction of reportage in their sphere of influence. Terms like racist and bigot are bandied about whenever someone criticises their view of the world. We "europeans" (and I feel at this point I should add that this is a continent of 30 or more unique and distinct nations, not a homogenous mass to be asessed in a single fell swoop as you are doing) generally liv in various states of fear. Yes, there are cowards and yes, there are the brainwashed multiculturalists, but the rest are against it. Polls indicate that the vast majority of people in the UK, for instance, are against untramelled immigration, yet we have untramelled immigration because the majority are deemed to be "obviously wrong" by the elite. The polls are simply not reported, or twisted to show how endemic racism is in society.

Can you imagine what it must be like for these people? They are a majority, yet each and every one feels that there can't be more than a dozen close friends and family members who agree with them. You forget how utterly pervasive the arms of the state and the leftist media are in these countries.

I speak as one who has found this information. I know that there is a silent majority out there opposed to this, and once the fur starts to fly they will rise up to defend themselves. I also know that your abject dismissal of these people is quite insulting to me personally, as you assume assume that, first, all europeans are alike and, second, that they are all cowards or brainwashed. Well I'm not. My family isn't. Everyone I know isn't. Most of the people they know aren't.

I try not to take offence. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Don't judge these nations from what you hear in the media because that same media is working against us.

Zonka said...

Zerosumgame,

Yes, we do agree about the threat, though as kepiblanc also pointed out Europe isn't the only one threatened here, neither is Europe the only one that sticks its official head in the sand. So while we do not disagree on the intent of Islam (Islamofascism is redundant) we certainly do not agree on capability!

The worst thing that the muslims could do is to start a series of terrorist acts in Denmark, as it would backfire on them pretty bad, for several reasons. The harder they hit the more they'll lose. Not because Denmark is a super power, but because it will open the eyes of the world!

As for your second point, yes it seems like a conundrum doesn't it? But the answer is easy... knowledge! Most people both in the US and Europe is blissfully unaware of Islam and the intentions of Islam and have bought into the story of Islam being a Religion of Peace, they know that there is something wrong, but they cannot put their finger on it, and their governments and press doesn't help either. But when you talk to these people and you give them enough information to connect the dots... most people come to the same conclusions as have been found in Denmark!

As for the third point “what are "the people" doing about it?” -- no they are not revolting or rioting, thank God! But that doesn't mean that nothing is being done, slower than you and me would like but wheels have been set in motion, you just have to look at the bigger picture. The rejection of the new EU treaty is one step, the popular opinion to keep Turkey out of EU is another. This might seem unrelated but it is not, it's simply a snowball starting to roll and gaining momentum.

I know you want to believe that somehow Denmark will get through all this. I'm telling you that it won't. Neither will the rest of Europe.” Feel free to lie down and die! I certainly don't share your doom and gloom. Things might get bad, they might even get really bad! But there is no way that Islam can prevail in an open conflict with the West, and every violent act from the muslims will open the eyes of more people and the bring an open conflict closer.

Zonka said...

Archonix wrote: “I try not to take offence. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Don't judge these nations from what you hear in the media because that same media is working against us.

Couldn't have said it better!

Zerosumgame said...

kepiblanc

My pessimism on Europe is shared by many in America, mostly on the right, but not exclusively so.

Three prominent books have been written in the last year or so by Americans about the Islamofascist threat to Europe, by people with different backgrounds and political viewpoints -- Tony Blankley (white male Catholic conservative), Claire Berlinski (center-left Jewish woman), and Bruce Bawer (gay, white Catholic male). The latter two have lived in Europe for a long time; Blankley has traveled extensively in Europe.

None of them seem optimistic about Europe's chances to withstand the Islamofascists.

I could go on:

Melanie Phillips? Thinks Britain and Europe has been destroyed by Marxist moral inversion.

Mark Steyn? Always comes backs to the demographics -- unless gentile Europeans start having a lot of children very quickly, they will be a minority in 30-50 years.

Charles Krauthammer? He is so disgusted with eternal European Jew-hatred that he wouldn't even care if Europe was overrun by Islamofascists, so long as the Jews get out.

I would guess you read LGF (I know that Baron and Dymphna do.). For years, Charles Johnson has posted about Europe's ever increasing cowardice, Judenhass, and Amerikahass(?).

I understand that I cannot judge Europe based on anecdotal evidence, but the evidence here is not anecdotal, it is systematic and overwhelming.

Claire Berlinski, in her book, points out how polls show that continental Europeans are very pessimistic about the future. Polls show a large and growing minority of Dutch believe that they or their children will have to leave.

If you wish to defend your country, your courage is admirable. I just think it will be in vain, though.

eatyourbeans said...

Kepi, Archonix, Zonka. I hope to God you guys are right, but as Zero says from over here it looks pretty alarming.
We Americans shouldn't be too self-satisfied on this point. We also have immigration problems and an elite with its own agenda.
I wonder how it will all end.

Zerosumgame said...

eatyourbeans

The difference is that 1) the power of our leftist elite is on the wane

2) Americans increasingly distrust the so-called MSM, and

3) The leftist elite media has serious and growing competition here.

In Europe, the media is almost 100% center left to far left, almost 100% anti-American and (yes) almost 100% anti-Semitic. Further, the Europeans, whose political views are further to the left than those of most Americans, have a much greater tendency to believe the PC garbage that spews from their media, no matter how outrageous and contrary to fact it is -- especially when it comes to vilifying us Jews.

kepiblanc said...

zerosumgame --

I respectfully disagree to all of your statements above. Over here the 'lefties' are on retreat in most countries. Europeans don't trust the MSM any more than Americans do - probably less. the European media are far more diverse than the American ones - you just don't hear about them. Just take the Motoon intifada : the cartoons were printed in lots of MSM media over here (even French ones like Figaro), displayed on TV etc... whereas NOT ONE US MSM dared to do so.

And I can honestly tell you that if any Danish daily tried to display anti-semitism - even if it existed, which it doesn't - it wouldn't survive another sunrise. A Muslim homepage tried it (Hizbut-Tahrir or some such) and they have been suffering from the backlash ever since.

Zerosumgame said...

Kepiblanc:

Foxnews showed the cartoons various times, but otherwise you are right, our media is mostly a bunch of far-left, America-hating, terrorist-appeasing cowards.

And while I cannot speak about Danish media, the truly vile anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian ranting coming out of most European media IS anti-Semitism.

And this opinion is not just the elites; typical Europeans are very much in alignment with the media in their hatred of Israel and the Jews.

This is why all of your Holocaust ceremonies in Europe are phony. Europe pretends to remember dead Jews, but becomes insane with rage and anger when the live Jews who survived the Holocaust try to defend themselves.

Archonix said...

I realise that, again, from your side of the atlantic this continent looks like one large mass, but it isn't. Despite what the EU and its proponents are trying to achieve, "europe" isn't a homogenous mass. It's very diverse in opinion, and I would submit that most of the continent simply doesn't fit in to the view you're recieving. The problem you face, and we too, I should add, is that the left, though slowly loosing ground, is far more pervasive in our society than it is in yours. There might not be many of them, but, as I pointed out, the media and the "elite", for want of a better word, control everything in a way your Democrats can only dream about, from education to government to the media. Even Massachussets is a libertarian utopia compared to some countries here.

Like I said, opinion is diverse. The picture presented by the media is nearly uniform, because most of the mainstream media takes its cue from a a very few universally left-wing organisations. Even those on the right, living in the rarified world of the media, tend to see things through a left-wing prism.

Frankly I find your fatalism disturbing. You assume, wrongly, that because something is so it must always be so. I certainly agree that things look bad, but you are ignoring the fact that we live in a society where information is highly controlled to a degree you simply aren't familiar with. It's getting to soviet levels in some areas.

Lets take France as an example. I imagine, over there, you see France as a place where people protest whenever the government teat starts to run dry, correct? Well, that isn't the case. There was a demonstration a couple of months ago by students who were protesting a government plan to reduce employment regulations. Those were the ones who liked being on welfare. It was well reported in the media, because it fits right in to the statist socialism espoused by that media. What isn't mentioned is the much larger counter-demonstration, by students who want to work when they've graduated, who were demanding that employers be given more rights. They had about twice the number of protesters, yet nary a peep from the media. It's but a single example, yet it should serve to illustrate that these countries aren't the uniformly socialist hellholes you seem keen to protray.

The peoples of europe are slow to anger, but when roused they are swift and deadly. Rather than writing us off, you should start tryihng to inform people about the threat they face. Rather than simply telling us to run away from the threat, you should be trying to get the message out to those that don't know: you aren't alone. That's what I do whenver I get the chance. When the peoples of this continent realise that they aren't in the minority, they will take back their lands as they have always done.

kepiblanc said...

zerosumgame --

Okay - Let's narrow this thead to the subject of Jews. Please give at least one example of a major European daily or magazine printing anti-semitic stuff ?

Your remark "...typical Europeans are very much in alignment with the media in their hatred of Israel and the Jews is way, way over the target. I think you've just fallen victim to the same illusion as your president when he speaks of his "war on terror". As have been repeated over and over again, terror is a tactic, not an enemy. The enemy is Islam. You make the same mistake when you confuse Israel with Jews. Israel is a Jewish nation-state, not an ethnic term. And aren't Arabs semites as well as the Jews ? - If yes, I'll admit there is quite some anti-semitism at large here...

You're right in referring to some MSM media here (and in the US ?) being anti-Israel. Does that really make them anti-semitic ? To the best of my knowledge some political parties in Israel oppose the politics of Mr. Olmert and some Jews in the diaspora oppose Isrrael's policy as well. Does that make those Jews anti-semitic ?

I'll give you an example : Denmark's most prominent anti-Israel newspaper Politiken is the quintessence of dhimmitude, moonbatism and left-leaning foolishness. It constantly finds itself on the verge of high treason i.e. when it some 60 years ago sided with Hitler and warned those stupid Danes against "nazi-fobia". See the pattern ? - Well, the former editor-in-chief of this fish-wrapping garbage, Mr. Herbert Pundik is prominent and outspoken Jew. During the Motoon affair he suddenly came up with an idea : Let's start a nation-wide collection in order to donate the Muslims a big, shiny mosque - Of course the reaction to this ridiculous proposal was nothing but disbelief : "is he crazy, has he lost every remaining bit of common sense ?". So now, when someone mentions mr. Pundik people just point their index finger to the front in a whirring movement. Do we become anti-semitic by doing so ?

Zerosumgame, your last remark about "phony ceremonies" is disgusting. What ceremonies might that be ?

Zerosumgame said...

kepiblanc

Please give at least one example of a major European daily or magazine printing anti-semitic stuff ?

I first refer you to the website "Little Green Footballs", where the proprietor of that website has been reporting this anti-Semitism since 2002. I also refer you to many other Jewish and Israeli websites -- Israpundit, Israellycool, Yourish.com, atlasshrugs, to name a few.

The enemy is Islam. You make the same mistake when you confuse Israel with Jews. Israel is a Jewish nation-state, not an ethnic term.

You're right in referring to some MSM media here (and in the US ?) being anti-Israel. Does that really make them anti-semitic ?

You are using the word games of our enemies. Israel is the target of venomous hatred and an impossible double standard by Europe primarily for one reason -- it is full of Jews! Do you see the EU or the UN screaming about what the Russians do in Chechnya? What the Chinese do in Tibet? About the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia or the Sudan? Do they pass 50 gazillion UN resolutions about Mugabe starving his own people? NO!

But let Israel kill an avowed genocidal Nazi like Sheikh Yassin, and Europe goes nuts. I know that you are a supporter of Israel, and as a supporter of Israel, I ask that you please stop using the same phony distinction between Israel and Jews as the left-wing European media and bureaucrats.

Anything that Israel does to defend herself against these Islamic Nazis (and that IS what the Palestinains are -- NAZIS!), and the Europeans tell Israel it is bad. Well, if Europe believes that Israel has no right to defend itself against those who wish to destroy it, what does that say about Europe?

Zerosumgame, your last remark about "phony ceremonies" is disgusting. What ceremonies might that be ?

All those Holocaust remembrance ceremonies that Europe holds, where the leaders attend with the local Jewish community, pretending that they are sorry that Hitler wiped out the Jews of Europe, then after the ceremony, those same European officials then go and figure out how to help the Palestinians and Iran to destroy Israel.

If the Jewish leaders in Europe had some courage, they would boycott these cermonies, or give speeches in front of these same Europeans telling them what a bunch of bigots and hypocrites they are.

Zerosumgame said...

kepiblanc

Please give at least one example of a major European daily or magazine printing anti-semitic stuff ?

I first refer you to the website "Little Green Footballs", where the proprietor of that website has been reporting this anti-Semitism since 2002. I also refer you to many other Jewish and Israeli websites -- Israpundit, Israellycool, Yourish.com, atlasshrugs, to name a few.

The enemy is Islam. You make the same mistake when you confuse Israel with Jews. Israel is a Jewish nation-state, not an ethnic term.

You're right in referring to some MSM media here (and in the US ?) being anti-Israel. Does that really make them anti-semitic ?

You are using the word games of our enemies. Israel is the target of venomous hatred and an impossible double standard by Europe primarily for one reason -- it is full of Jews! Do you see the EU or the UN screaming about what the Russians do in Chechnya? What the Chinese do in Tibet? About the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia or the Sudan? Do they pass 50 gazillion UN resolutions about Mugabe starving his own people? NO!

But let Israel kill an avowed genocidal Nazi like Sheikh Yassin, and Europe goes nuts. I know that you are a supporter of Israel, and as a supporter of Israel, I ask that you please stop using the same phony distinction between Israel and Jews as the left-wing European media and bureaucrats.

Anything that Israel does to defend herself against these Islamic Nazis (and that IS what the Palestinains are -- NAZIS!), and the Europeans tell Israel it is bad. Well, if Europe believes that Israel has no right to defend itself against those who wish to destroy it, what does that say about Europe?

Zerosumgame, your last remark about "phony ceremonies" is disgusting. What ceremonies might that be ?

All those Holocaust remembrance ceremonies that Europe holds, where the leaders attend with the local Jewish community, pretending that they are sorry that Hitler wiped out the Jews of Europe, then after the ceremony, those same European officials then go and figure out how to help the Palestinians and Iran to destroy Israel.

If the Jewish leaders in Europe had some courage, they would boycott these cermonies, or give speeches in front of these same Europeans telling them what a bunch of bigots and hypocrites they are.

Zonka said...

Zerosumgame,

That is just lame! Kepiblanc asked you for just one example, and you instantly refer to second hand sources! If you want to be taken seriously, you need to offer more backup for your arguments! It's not enough to point at a haystack and say -- it's there find the needle... Back up your words with proof and/or fact and don't expect us to do your research for you!

Just to put things into perspective, you're trying as a Jew in America to tell us Europeans that you know the situation in Europe better than we do! I wouldn't presume to teach Americans about the situation in the USA, and frankly you would probably be offended if I did... I have a lot of knowledge about the US situation, but not nearly as much as any American who has taken just a slight interest in what is going on in the US. And you're talking to some Europeans who have invested quite some time in educating themselves about the situation in Europe! So drop the antagonism and and arrogance, and we might get somewhere... instead of just airing hobby-horses!

Hodja said...

According to this Denmark is doomed already no matter what one does:

http://danmark.wordpress.com/2006/06/20/prognose-pa-korrigeret-befolkningsgrundlag/

falling curves: danes, exponentially rising curves: immigrants (non-western)

as you can see, danes will be a minority in their own country no later than 2038-2043. And stopping immigration will not help. Immigrants reproduce by 4% yearly.

Zonka said...

Hodja,

Yes those graphs are showing that if the current trend continues, Danes will be a minority in their own country... However, such graphs are both a good way of presenting trends but also deceptive, as they are projections built on the data known to be valid here and now, and naturally cannot foresee changes that will upset the pre-conditions. e.g. making it less economical favorable for immigrants to have more than 1-2 kids, making it more economically advantageous for danes to have more kids, mass deportations of immigrants or something else not foreseen. So yes the graphs can tell us what will happen if nothing happens, however knowing how volitale the situation is I'm certain that something will happen sooner than 2038-43.

Zerosumgame said...

Zonka,

As I have learned internet courtesy, when asked for an example, it is perfectly acceptable to refer people to internet links or websites.

Or use a search engine. I'm sure if you "Ask" (I don't use Google because they aid the Communist regime in China, amongst other reasons), using "anti-semitism European media", you will get more examples than you care to know about.

kepiblanc said...

zerosumgame --

I'll refer you to zonka's post. He answers you much better than I possibly could. And just to emphasize : Yes, I am a 112% supporter of Israel. As are the overwhelming majority of Danes. Some are not. And I happen to know quite a few of them, so I can honestly say : I know no one - not a single one - who deserves the label 'anti-semite'. Jewish or not - being Jewish is a non-issue here. Who cares ? We're Danes. Period.

hodja --

Denmark is doomed already no matter what one does
Yes....unless we do something about it. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I have a strong conviction and faith in education, enlightenment, science, common sense, rationality....you name it. And I don't advocate 'ethnic cleansing', forced deportation, sterilisation and whatnot - thusly lowering ourselves to their level. But nevertheless there is not even the slightest trace of doubt in my mind that Islam is doomed. Not Denmark. Not Europe. Not civilization. Islam will loose this war - if not by anything else, then it's own inferiority, stupidity and incompetence in everything. Every thing. Muslims are what they are : loosers.

Muslim immigration to Denmark is halted. That's a first. OK, the remaining Muslims can try to outbreed us. But Muslims are just as greedy and lazy as you and me. They'll realize that having 10 or 12 kids won't bring them on par with those Danes living in nice, private houses with just 2 or 3 well-educated children. Nor will it in any way secure their life in old age - if 6 out of 12 offsprings are in jail at any given time - and the remaining 6 are out of jobs. And those Muslims who don't understand it will try to carry on. And they'll encounter a force they don't understand and accordingly can't fight : humor, ridicule, satire, social humiliation....defeat.

Zerosumgame said...

kepiblanc:

Even if I accept your assertion that most Danes are more pro-Israel, it can safely be said that most other European nations are not.

Zonka said...

Zerosumgame writes: “As I have learned internet courtesy, when asked for an example, it is perfectly acceptable to refer people to internet links or websites.” ... Yes it is acceptable, when you point people to a specific source of information, just saying LGF doesn't count it's only slightly better than say "ask.com" or "google" -- it's the haystack thing again. And I have better things to do with my time than to dig through the haystack to find your needle, which I to begin with don't think is in the haystack to begin with!

Zerosumgame further writes: ”Even if I accept your assertion that most Danes are more pro-Israel, it can safely be said that most other European nations are not." unless you can back that up with proof, I suggest that you preface such statements with In my opinion: or I believe that:, because merely stating an opinion doesn't make it true! Continuing to state opinions as facts with no sources or independent verification doesn't help your case and makes your statements less credible!

Joern said...

Denmark is on a suicide drive:

So-called refugees get the cars at lower valued added taxation in Denmark

- will be forwarded to Daniel Pipes blog. The Americans need a free laugh.


September 6th 1999 TV (2) News announced that the former Secretary of State (Taxation) Ole Stavad intended to introduce a new duty on car-accidents - the 79th duty on driving in Denmark.


The effects of this duty, push: Status and effects?


But could TV (2) News think of throwing light on the following :


Asylum-applicants do not pay the full duty on cars in Denmark – and you have to sit down: The Danish pay 175 p.c. duty on new cars plus VAT.

Until November 29th 1997, when the law was changed, the asylum-applicants drow in cars they brought with them without paying car-duty at all.

Most Danish cannot afford to buy new cars – as you may understand – but they would certainly like drive taxfree in their old ones.

Asylum-applicants pay only 1 p.c. of the total duty a month following the legislation.

1/3 price of the car for the asylum-applicants (when they sell the car in time).

We wonder if the asylum-applicants perhaps should have a duty-reduction if the tax on car-accidents passes too.
Extracts of the negotiations May 6th 1998 in the Danish Parlament (Folketinget) of L76 about removing the discrimination against the Danes:


Erik Mortensen (socialdemokrat):
"I do think that this proposal is based on the fundamental difference of the view of human nature generally...."
(We have to say we agree but....)


Morten Helveg Petersen (Radikale Venstre):
"We think it is ok the the asylum.applicants like other foreigners at a shorter stay in this country have the right to pay the duty 1 p.c. of the total a month...."
(70 p.c. remain here permanently until now)


Kim Behnke (Fremskridtspartiet):
"This arrangment is totally wrong...I have to remind you that until June 1983 all asylum-files were finished the border-station. It ought to be like that again...."

Ole Stavad (Secretary of State (taxation)):

"I want to underline that it must be very few cases in reality. First asylum-applicant arrive with money of any significance, second it is impossible to the own a car according to the modest welfare payment they receive...."

(My God, where have you been?)
(unquote)


Car-duties were of no significance to asylum-applicant, if they did no stay in Denmark while the long and slow case-considerations are going on even with the opposite production of evidence. Complaints and new files on still new basics going on for years.


The Danes in Denmark have to earn nearly 10 times the price of a car to buy one. If the price is $20,000 you have to pay $60.000 (duty and VAT added). But to pay $60,000 you have to earn $180,000 before income-tax. 'We wonder who are driving the other 9 cars'.


Now they introduce one more car-duty that means that if the car has lost the half or more of its value in an accident the insurance-company have to replace the old with a new car. That is the thougts of of Ole Stavad following TV (2) News.


Higher premiums, higher import of cars, if the Danish can borrow more to pay a higher yield of taxation to 1 mill. employees in the public sector. There are less than 5 mill Danes all in all. 600-700,000 unemployed (including individuals on social security) and 500-700,000 foreigners mostly from South Asia, The Middle East and Africa with domicile outside Denmark, and we have a state-debt of almost $ 100 billions, close to that of Russia’s.


They still teach that debt means nothing. Somebody knows better, for sure. "Car-Accident-Duty has to be reduced for asylum-applicants too". "If it is not, perhaps they will look for their own country for a change".

Joern & Sonia
http://Danmark.wordpress.com

Zonka said...

Joern,

What is your point with the drivel you posted? Outdated information of dubious veracity for unknown purposes is what it is!