Monday, October 10, 2011

Are Critics of Islam the Nazis of Our Time?

Editor’s note: The following article was a response to a piece in Aftenposten that likened Fjordman to a Nazi. The paper denied him his statutory “right of reply”, so he is publishing his prepared response here and at other online locations instead.

The Norwegian version of this article was published previously here. Many thanks to our Norwegian correspondent NA for translating it into English.

We encourage as many blogs as possible to mirror these posts. Our goal is for more people to read this article than if it had been published in
Aftenposten, as Fjordman originally intended. The Norwegian MSM will discover that they no longer control the flow of information to the public. We will demonstrate that the “new media” can do a better job of disseminating news than the newspapers can.

Fjordman

Here follows the translated text of an essay that the newspaper Aftenposten has now refused to publish. According to the ethical guidelines of the Norwegian Press Association, one has the right to reply to accusations put forward about oneself in the press. Aftenposten, a few days before I went public with my real name, posted a notorious article about “Islamophobes” such as Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or and myself (Fjordman) where we were presented as the new wave of right-wing extremism. The photos in the print edition were particularly nasty, where I was put next to Vidkun Quisling, Anders Behring Breivik and several neo-Nazis who are convicted murderers. I think they owe me for that. They were very close to a libel suit back then.

I sent them this essay a few days ago (as Peder Jensen, of course) for review. They rejected it. I’m not going to claim that it is the best text I have ever written, but I think it is at least as well-written, well-researched and logically coherent as the countless mediocre and easily-forgotten essays that very same newspaper has published about racist white Islamophobes and right-wing extremists.

I was first told that the text didn’t match the title. I think it does. I linked it to the Nazi sympathies of Islamic organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood and showed how the authorities and the mainstream media have appeased the real Nazis of our time. However, they wanted me to remove the second part. I refused, and argued that the examples I had used were relevant. The same journalist then changed tactics and stated that my arguments were not new and had been used before. I suppose that means that Aftenposten will reject all future essays about Islamophobia or xenophobia, since most people have heard those arguments hundreds of times before, if not more. Somehow, I doubt that will happen.

Aftenposten asked me to remove the reference to my upcoming book The Curious Civilization from the text because this could be seen as a commercial of some kind. I admit that was indeed part of the reason why I put it there. That is the one change that I would have been willing to make to the text, to cut out that particular reference. Also note that they didn’t dispute a single factual claim that I wrote in the essay. I can easily document all of them.

The bottom line is that one has the “right to reply”, but apparently only as long as the journalists agree with your reply, which isn’t very helpful. I can accept being rejected if I simply don’t write well enough. I am not claiming that every single text I write is a masterpiece. Perhaps this one isn’t. But I cannot live with being turned down because of ideological censorship, and will not rewrite an essay to please those doing so. Perhaps I am wrong, but I personally sense an element of that motive here. If that is indeed the case then I will not accept it. That is why I started blogging in the first place. I therefore publish the text here to highlight censorship in the press.


Are Critics of Islam the Nazis of Our Time?

by Peder Jensen, also known as the writer Fjordman on the Internet

On the 30th of July of this year, Aftenposten printed the article “They are the third wave,” in which they harassed people such as Bat Ye’or, Robert Spencer and myself. The illustrations in the printed edition were particularly appalling. One was shown a picture of Bat Ye’or, and on the next page a picture of the convicted Nazi traitor Vidkun Quisling. This is extremely tactless, especially considering that the Nazis were responsible for the genocide of about six million Jews and the fact that Bat Ye’or is Jewish. Besides, Aftenposten‘s own historical relationship with the Nazis is far from pretty.

The message that is now being presented in the mass media after the atrocities committed by Anders Behring Breivik is that critics of Islam like myself are the Nazis of our time. But is this true? The Nazis were national Socialists, even though many people would now like us to forget the second part of their ideology. I have personally never heard of a totalitarian movement that could not also be partially described as Socialist. Is it a coincidence that a disproportionate number of Western converts to Islam are neo-Nazis or Marxists? Do they share a common totalitarian DNA?

In 2008, Marte Michelet from Dagbladet startlingly enough made common cause with Islamic organizations, Communists and neo-Nazis in favour of a new, large mosque in Cologne. German neo-Nazis regard Islamic organizations as allies in the struggle against “Jewish-Zionist dominance.” This did not lead to critical remarks from other media in Norway. There is more inbreeding in the Norwegian press than amongst Pakistani cousins.

As I mention in my upcoming book on European culture, The Curious Civilization, Muslims have a choice between Mozart and Hitler, and often choose Hitler of their own free will. In sharp contrast to the East Asian passion for European Classical music, Adolf Hitler’s autobiography Mein Kampf was number two on the bestseller list in the allegedly moderate NATO member state Turkey as late as in 2005. The book is still popular in parts of the Arab world.

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by Hassan al-Banna in 1928, grew in parallel with the Nazi movement in Europe and was inspired by this in addition to Islam. Their leader Mahdi Akef has reassured his followers that Jihad “will smash Western civilization and replace it with Islam, which will dominate the world.” Akef stated in 2007 that if Muslims are not able to achieve this in the near future they are “obliged to continue Jihad [holy war to expand Islamic global rule], which will lead to the collapse of Western civilization.”

The Islamic Council of Norway, which is being funded by native Norwegian taxpayers, receives guidance from the European Council for Fatwa and Research about issues such as whether or not to support the death penalty for homosexuals. The Council is led by the powerful Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the spiritual guide of the Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi, who supports marriage with underage children, has openly boasted that Muslims will conquer Europe, spoken in positive terms of the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis, and suggested that the next mass murder of Jews will come at the hands of Muslims. As Walid al-Kubaisi points out, the Brotherhood has a big influence in many countries, the West included. Representatives of Jonas Gahr Støre’s Foreign Ministry have met members of the Muslim Brotherhood for talks in Oslo.

In 2007 under the government of Jens Stoltenberg, Norway was the only Western country to recognize the Palestinian government that was then led by Hamas. The ideology of Hamas has many similarities with Nazism. This move was widely applauded by the Norwegian press at the time. People within the governing parties and the political Left wanted to support such a government financially, which would imply that Norwegian taxpayers had to fund terrorists.

In September 2011 the Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) asked the cartoonist Kurt Westergaard to leave Norway because they feared that an assassination attempt would be made against him. According to Islamic sources, critics of Mohammed were killed by his followers. Given that his personal example, or Sunna, which along with the Koran constitutes the teachings of Islam, this remains a valid principle to this day. Those who want to kill Theo van Gogh or Geert Wilders are therefore acting in full compliance with traditional Islamic theology.

This is described in Halvor Tjønn’s surprisingly realistic Norwegian biography of Mohammed. Ibn Warraq, author of the book Why I Am Not a Muslim, is a man who was born in Pakistan but has to write under a pseudonym in order to avoid the death penalty for apostasy. Islam is the only religion on Earth that prescribes death to those who criticize or leave it.

Thomas Seltzer, a host on NRK3, has presented a caricature of me as a multi-handicapped writer in a wheelchair. I presume that this makes me the Norwegian equivalent of Stephen Hawking, which I take as a compliment. Alternatively, one could imagine it to be an insinuation that people in wheelchairs are drivelling fools, which is not particularly tasteful.

The difference between a humorist and a bully is that a true humorist makes fun of the powerful, not the weak. Seltzer can ridicule people like me because he knows that we will not assault him, but he does not dare to show a drooling Yusuf al-Qaradawi in a wheelchair explaining to Muslims that paedophilia is OK. By so doing he has himself indirectly admitted who the real successors to the Nazis in our time actually are. I can inform him that genuine neo-Nazis do not like me at all and have circulated rumours on the Internet for years about me being an Israeli agent because of my clear pro-Israeli line.

Some people might assert that I, who stretch the boundaries of freedom of speech, should put up with as much. Perhaps. The difference is that citizens do not have to pay for my writings. Through the TV license they have to pay for what is broadcast on NRK, whether they want to or not. In an age when a heavily left-leaning press looks like as a wall-to-wall carpet of Multicultural propaganda, one has to ask why. Hundreds of thousands of Norwegians are fed up with the fact that those who are deeply concerned for the future of their children because of a mass immigration that is unprecedented in human history are harassed by their own press corps and labelled as extremists, racists and Nazis.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has spoken in favour of more openness and democracy after Breivik. One of the most important things one could do to get a democratic debate going in Norway is to remove press subsidies and to abolish NRK in its present form. The question is whether the Labour Party is willing to do this as long as NRK constitutes an integral part of the Left’s grip on power.

62 comments:

Gregory said...

Critics of islam are no more the nazis of our time than are critics of Christianity. Plain and simple. Enough said.

Muninn said...

If our civilization ever manages to pull out of its nose dive, I'm sure Mr. Jensen will finally be recognized for his tremendous contributions to reclaiming Occidental sanity. I found Fjordman's writings when I started to realize something is rotten in the West. His lucid style and meticulous research showed me just how precious our civilization is and just how far it has fallen.

At the moment however, the Left thinks it has us cornered. The great press machine has all but said that anyone who has a problem with Islam and demographic changes must have the same mental disorder as Brevik. In essence, their goal is to put Brevik masks on us all. Right now is the worst time possible to back down and apologize for some imagined guilt for having the opinions we do.

I don't hate anyone, I believe that every human life has inherent value, and I believe that everyone has the right to keep their way of life in peace on their native lands without being subject to colonialism of any stripe (as long as said ways of life don't infringe on anyone else's right to do the same). It is because of this I believe that our rights as a people are being denied and I cannot abide the loathing for Europeans and European civilization I see every day in droves and approved by our institutions no less. It sickens me to the core.

I have a conviction that there is deep discontent with the current state of affairs within the unconscious mind of the West. I think underneath all the "official" opinions, the natives are restless.

Our governments have deliberately changed our countries drastically and then said those changes were "inevitable." It's a bit like kicking your own front door down and then saying the draft is inevitable.

I regret that I am unable to help Fjordman financially at the moment (buying a degree today carries a hefty price tag), but I wish him luck in his move, wherever that may take him. I sincerely hope he keeps writing, because we need his intellect now more than ever.

"Here I stand, and cannot do otherwise - so help me God" - Martin Luther

"Truth never triumphs, its opponents just die out" - Max Planck

Cyrus said...

Before reading what is sure to be a great read: Is Fjordman planning to take his complaint to the Norwegian Press Association? Or would doing so merely fall on deaf ears?

Benge Runfalk said...

Thank you Peder/Fjordman for keeping on being our beacon of nordic light. Hope you have found a peaceful place to keep up doing the good work!

/Kalle

Lawrence said...

No. Islamists are the Nazis of our time. But that isn't what people want us to believe so they change the message to make us look like the bad guys.

In other words, saying that Islam promotes violence isn't news. It isn't sensational, it is the norm for Islam.

Saying that some instance shows non-Islamists in a bad light... that is sensational... that runs against the norm, and that makes for great sell-able news.

Condor said...

Peder/Fjordman is way out of line in the new posting of his cronicle that was refused by Aftenposten. First: Neither the mass murderer or Peder/Fjordman is compared with nazism in Norway. What has been stated is that the methods used by the mass murder, Peder/Fjordman, as well as the old nazis (ref. Julius Streicher)and also som islamic groups (ref. Amadinejad) in order to create hatred by the use of generalizations and undocumented sayings, are comparable.

Second: Peder/Fjordman has been challenged to stand open debate over his issues, but has so far refused to do so. Instead it seems that he continues to hide himself behind his screen and computer, which by many in Norway is considered to be cowardly.

July 22nd made a change. A huge part of Norways 105.000 registered moslems took to the streets to suport the victins of the terror act. They acted first as Norwegian, more than moslems. And for the first time in Norway, etnic Norwegians and moslems stood shoulder by shoulder in condemnation of the cruel act.

There has been, and will be also in the future, debates in Norway over islamic related issues. If Peder/Fjordman thinks his ideas holds water, he should allow them to be confronted in open debate. If not, it leads most other to think that Peder/Fjordman himself has too less confidence in his own ideas to risk them being confronted by others in open debate.

jeppo said...

"There is more inbreeding in the Norwegian press than amongst Pakistani cousins."

That's a clever and witty example of how to kill two birds with one stone. Glad to see our old pal Fjordman hasn't lost his touch :)

nimbus said...

Peder, I do believe you will be remembered by history, when all is said and done. And in a good way.

Baron Bodissey said...

Condor,

I think you are either being disingenuous, or are quite unfamiliar with what was printed, broadcast, and posted in the Norwegian media in the days following July 22.

For example, consider this photo from the original article in the paper edition of Aftenposten. It shows Breivik, Quisling, three well-known neo-Nazis (out of which two are convicted murderers), and a blank face for Fjordman.

That speaks for itself, does it not?

Or this newspaper report from August 6: “Fjordman wanted to employ a Nazi-solution”.

The fact remains that the Norwegian media were in lockstep at the time: Fjordman was just like Breivik, and he was also just like a Nazi. Hence “Heine Fjordland” on NRK.

costin said...

Voice of The Copts cited Gates of Vienna

magooey said...

The patent abuses by the european press in the immediate aftermath of the Breivik massacre resulted in a dangerous and threatening environment. Perhaps it pays to consider Takuan Seiyo's essay on Freedomia. To what extent is it already necessary to have a territorial base to continue with the mere exercise of freedom of speeech?

Martin Luther's Princely backers come to mind.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Condor
Re: “Peder/Fjordman, as well as the old nazis .... etc. ...in order to create hatred by the use of generalizations and undocumented sayings, are comparable.”
To the contrary, Fjordman’s writings have been extraordinarily well referenced, based on stated and even electronically linked sources and quotes, exemplified with hundreds of concrete cases and so on. It’s your and your side’s allegations v. Fjordman that hold no water.

Re: “Peder/Fjordman has been challenged to stand open debate over his issues, but has so far refused to do so.”
For as long as I have been reading Fjordman, which is six years, his writings have begged for open debate. Will you kindly direct us to the books and essays that have been written to debate Fjordman’s ideas? Any forum of debate that has been opened for Fjordman in a Norwegian newspaper? Any European newspaper?

Re: “A huge part of Norways 105.000 registered moslems took to the streets to suport the victins of the terror act. They acted first as Norwegian, more than moslems.”
No, they acted first as Muslims, and as any sane people would. They showed their solidarity with the modern-day Quislings who brought them to Norway and who reshaped Norway for that purpose. It’s called self-preservation. On the other hand, it’s the ethnic Norwegians who in following their multiculti Socialist trend-setters acted as deranged, suicidal aliens-from-space first and as Norwegians not even second but fifth: like in 5th column. Kudos to Norway’s Muslims for at least knowing which side their bread is buttered on.

De Olho na Jihad said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
De Olho na Jihad said...

We have followed the writings of Fjordman in Brazil. And soon publish his writings in Portuguese: http://olhonajihad.blogpost.com

Jacques Nunes
Eye on Jihad- Brazil

sgt.red.blue.red said...

The mos-slums, demokrats, MSM media apologists and other politically correct useful idiots are the Nazis of our time. Just ask Hank Williams, Jr.

Condor said...

B.Bodissey.

Once more: My point is here:

"What has been stated is that the methods used by the mass murder, Peder/Fjordman, as well as the old nazis (ref. Julius Streicher)and also some islamic groups (ref. Amadinejad) in order to create hatred by the use of generalizations and undocumented sayings, are comparable."

The methods used by the mass murder, by Peder/Fjordman, the nazi propaganda (Ref. Julius Streicher and his "Stürmer" in the 1920s) as well as certain islamic groups, to create hatred are comparable. The mass murder, as well as Peder/Fjordman has also used rethoric and hinted to a way of "removing islamists" from Norway that makes certain mind connections to the "Final Solution" from the nazis.

These are facts, not fictions. And just what the newspapers in their freedom of speech writes about. Peder/Fjordman has been challenged to stand debate with opponents, but has refused to do so. As long as he hides away, most people regards him to not stand by his writings in open debate.

Condor said...

Takuan Seiyo.

Since July 22nd, both the mass murders "manifesto" as well as Peder/Fjordman's writing has been scrutiniced and simply pulled apart as mostly undocumented sayings, conspiration theories as well as free fantasy, in the press, in academia and by researchers. Just to give a hint: How do Peder/Fjordman, ore anyone else, try to eksplain in a truthfully way, how 105.000 moslems in Norway, 1/6th of all immigrants, will be able to "take over" Norway and create an islamic state ? This is just one example of undocumented sayings.

Peder/Fjordman has several times been challenged to stand open debate face to face with opponents, among others in Litteraturhuset in Oslo, as late as ultimo October this year. If Peder/Fjordman belives his point of wiews hold water, why does he refuse to take part in the open debate he has been invited to?

You are completely wrong when you say that anyone in Norway "brougth" moslems to Norway, ore even "reshaped Norway for that purpose". Another example of undocumented sayings. As I was in the streets of Oslo during the great manifestation of the will of the Norwegian people, what was the most surprising was not the participation in itselv. It was what happened when the official program was ended, and around 300.000 people of all kind suddenly and simultanously startet to sing the Norwegian national hymn. Never in the fields of human relations were the Norwegian peoples more united as in that moment.

These changes are what Peder/Fjordman and others so far have not catched.

Hall Var her said...

why cant you guys see that you are buying in to the anti-muslim propaganda after 9/11? so you guys are the real suckers of the media... and you are buying what the handfull of extreme muslims are selling! they are trying to make a gap between the west and the rest and you guys are eating it up raw! the real problem is immigration, not muslims, but that is about to change. take danmark, they have had one of the most liberal immigration laws, but are now tighten it up. like more and more europen countries. so the hate that you guys are spreading is not good for anything, it just makes people with a screw loose hate more.....

bulbasaur said...

The comparison is pretty simple:

1930s = 2010s,
Jews = Jews (plus whole Western civialization),
Nazism = Islam,
Chamberlain = Multiculturalists,
Churchill = Critics of Islam.

Morgan said...

Just posted the essay on my own blog, along with my brief 2¢ and credit going to you guys, Baron. If you have any problems, let me know, and much thanks for posting it.

Egghead said...

Condor: The Trilogy of the Koran, Sira, and Hadith have been fully documented for 1,400 years - and NONE of them contain the words to the Norwegian national anthem. Ahem.

But, the Koran, Sira, and Hadith instruct ALL Muslims to use both "peaceful" and violent means to impose worldwide Sharia Law at the direct expense of the life, liberty, property (where non-Muslim women and children are defined as war booty), and sanity of all non-Muslims.

Your 105,000 Muslims are the tip of the spear pointed at the throat of your branch of Western civilization - instructed to puncture defenses and bleed the Western host dry in order to weaken Norway for further - and final - Muslim occupation and rule - cemented by Muslim influence over the creation of one world law by the United Nations.

Your Western naivete of Islam combined with your Christian-theology-derived "good intentions" are very useful to Mohammed's army of Muslims who have been conquering non-Muslims in foreign countries for 1,400 years.

In the eras without television and the internet - when Muslims hid their documents and intentions from non-Muslims, then non-Muslims could be excused for ignorance.

But today, it is fully possible for non-Muslims to face and fight their awful fate under the rule of Sharia Law:

The Center for the Study of Political Islam: Statistical Islam

urah2222 said...

ABSOTUTELY NOT!!

If anything they are the Churchills of our time, warning us of the angers of the cult that calls itself "surrender."

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Condor + Hall Var

Thank you for the interesting feedback.

Re: “Pulled apart in the press, in academia and by researchers.”
You have just iterated the main categories of what Lenin called “useful idiots” –and the more so in a socialist society like Norway’s. Except now the useful idiots no longer work in the service of far-away manipulators of a class war, but far-away manipulators of a race/religion/culture/gender war. So whatever these gentlemen came up with is of no value to us who look at the world through a quality pre-1965 prism.

Re: “Try to eksplain in a truthfully way, how 105.000 moslems in Norway, 1/6th of all immigrants, will be able to "take over" Norway and create an islamic state ?”
Fjordman must have written tens of thousands of words on this specific subject, so I’ll not try to summarize his views here. But I’ll give you my own truthful view that I believe Fjordman would agree with.

First, and this refers to Hall Var’s comment too, the issue is not the sixth of the immigrants who are Muslim, but all the immigrants, especially so-called “refugees.” The importation of large numbers of Third-world people has disastrous long-term implication for any Western society that indulges in this practice. In North America a few academics and “researchers” still survive who have not succumbed to the nouveau-Stalinist purges and lawfare practiced in Europe against their non-PC kind. If common sense, old Norse aphorisms and folk wisdom will not suffice for you, I’ll be glad to refer you to academic studies showing the adverse effects of Third-World immigration on social capital, crime, average IQ, decline in productivity, measures of unhappiness, emigration by autochthons etc. Note however, that if someone voiced a truthful objection to the presence of Muslims rather than Islam, and black Sri Lankans and 65-IQ Africans rather than “immigrants,” in your PC-regime he would be prosecuted for “racism,” destroyed and silenced long before one would who engages merely in a critique of Islam.

Second, Muslims and Islam are a special case beyond the above consideration, and none has shown it better than Fjordman. Your “only 105k” argument is irrelevant. Consider how many Bolsheviks there were in Russia in 1904, or Nazis in Weimar in 1920. People like Syed Farasat Ali Bukhari or Yusuf al-Qaradawi versus an average Norwegian voter or even Prime Minister are like a hungry fox in a coop of capons.
BTW, you seem to misattribute a generalization to Fjordman that he has not made, nor has any other major writer on this topic. The argument is not of the “All Muslims are terrorists” kind, which it would be proper to compare to Nazi writings. Rather, it is of the “All terrorists are Muslim” kind, and that applies to a host of issues, not only terrorism.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Condor

Re: “Peder/Fjordman has several times been challenged to stand open debate face to face with opponents, among others in Litteraturhuset in Oslo.”
This is totally disingenuous. First, if you provided a bulletproof transportation and armed police escort throughout the event, plus 24-hr police protection for Fjordman and his family, I am sure he might consider a debate face to face. And since the issue is so hot in Norway, why wasn’t it a TV network that came up with an offer of such a debate? And what percentage of the audience do you think would support Fjordman, thus giving him an emotional equal chance to succeed in the debate?

Second, there are intellectuals who write, and there are populists who speak. Fjordman is a prima facie intellectual. If such a desire to debate Fjordman exists, six years have passed in which he has been writing and publishing steadily, and no media outlet in Norway offered him a debate platform with worthy opponents. From an executive POV, a stupid and cowardly omission too, for such a debate would sell newspapers or bring more viewers in its time slot.

Re: “You are completely wrong when you say that anyone in Norway "brougth" moslems to Norway, ore even "reshaped Norway for that purpose ... 300,000 people etc."
No, it’s you who are wrong. You simply don’t know enough about how mass media work, how Comintern works, how Socialism International replaced race/gender/GLBT warfare for class warfare etc. And you are probably too young to remember Norway and Europe as they were 50 or even 45 years ago.
I grant you that the great majority in Norway supports your immigration policies and the related cowardly refusal to identify the related societal problems. I believe that the great majority is also against Fjordman’s position, is pro-Socialist, pro-Palestinian terrorism, anti-American (excepting Norwegian Americans like Obama) etc. But that is because those positions are in the brain content you are fed since kindergarten, with no alternatives available except for the tiny Nazi fringe, and the weird Knight Templar.
Fjordman challenged that Eloi paradigm, and for that you punished him. To remind you, when the prophet Jeremiah warned his people what would be their fate unless they changed their ways, they threw him into a well and continued in their ways. A few years later, their country was destroyed, their holy city, Jerusalem, set on fire, and all of them killed or exiled.

Lawrence said...

Condor said... "These are facts, not fictions. And just what the newspapers in their freedom of speech writes about. Peder/Fjordman has been challenged to stand debate with opponents, but has refused to do so. As long as he hides away, most people regards him to not stand by his writings in open debate."

What is also fact is that, under the circumstance, Fjordman isn't safe presenting himself openly in public.

You are demanding he present himself in public and face these Islamist threats, which in nearby countries have resulted in the death of the person standing up in public against Islam.

Why would you question Fjordman's credibility based simply on his decision not to risk such Islamist retaliation?

Know that his credibility isn't measured solely on his choice of privacy from public assault via media character assassination, or from physical violence from followers of Islam.

Condor said...

Takuan Seyo, 1.
Takuan Seiyo is unfortunately falling to replace documented arguments with adjectives, when he compares everyone who tear apart Peder/Fjordmans sayings and reveal them to be nonsence, with Lenins "useful idiots" without presenting even a tiny bit of evidence to make his case.

Peder/Fjordman may have written "tens of tousands of words" about moslems in Norway, but still he has so far not even presented one single bit of documentated evidence that there even would be a lowK risk in the future of any kind of islamic influence of Norwegian governing. In academia there is a well known wrong scientific method of socalled "ring-arguing", that is using spurious (non-correlated) connections to "prove" whatever. As revealed in the third chapter by Takuan Seiyo.

And by the way: Only 6% av all terrorist acts in Europa were performed by islamic groups over the past years, so it is also statisticly wrong that "All terrorists are Muslim".

Still, I have not heard or seen any significant evidence, statistics or liable facts that even are in the neighbourhood of empowering the myth of how the 2,5%muslims in Norway should be of any threat in the future. This myth is therefore nothing but a myth, in spite of being repeated over and over again by Peder/Fjordman and his companions.

Condor said...

Takuan Seyo 2.
First: Peder Jensen/Fjordman are walking the streets of Oslo today, without any police or other protection. If he should attend a meeting, of cource there would be security. Real intellectuals are usually capable of both writing and speaking. Peder/Fjordman prefer to write his opinions where he receives no opposition, and most people find that highly revealing of the substance of his writings.

Still I cannot see any evidence, proof or documentation from Takuan Seiyo giving any credibility to his allegation that anyone in Norway "brougth muslims to Norway, or even reshaped Norway for that purpose". In the 1970ths I wrote my Bachelor Laureate in history about the growth of totalitarian ideologies in Europe during the 1920-30ths, among them the Fascists (Italy) the Nazis (Germany) and the Comintern (USSR, and I cannot find anything there indicating that the Socialism International even considered to replace race/gender/GLBT warfare for class warfare etc. What I do find, is the very strong opposition from the International Socialists towards the totalitarsim of both the Comintern, the Nazi and the Fascists. And paid a severe price for that. If Takuan Seiyo want to have more evidence, the list of the first inhabitants of Dachau, the first nazi concentration camp, may be very useful to state what I say here.

No-one in Norway, as far as I know, refuses to identify the social challenges created by an immigration of almost 600.000 (of them 105.000 muslims)first and second generation. (SSB, Norwegian Bureau of Statistics). On the contrary. There has been instituted a lot of legislation and decisions providing: Ban on female suppression, ban on FGM, ban on "arranged marriages", establishing equal rights, kindergarten, language learning, education etc. etc.for all types of immigrants to Norway.

Peder/Fjordman has challenged nothing, he has just performed a lot of myths and hatred against the society that fed him, educated him and, so far, has given him the opportunity to work for his visions, however wrong they may be. I have never seen any polls, or any other research giving any credibility to Takuan Seiyo's allegations that the vast majority of Norwegians are, quote: "Pro-socialists, pro-Palestinian terrorism and anti-Americans". So I would appreciate if Takuan Seiyo would be so kind to present any documentation for this.

Condor said...

Lawrence tries to pretend that Peder Jensen/Fjorman would be assaulted if he should stand debate over his allegations.

This is completely twisted. Peder Jensen/Fjordman presented himself openly in public with name and photo in the largest Norwegian newspaper, and he is still walking the streets of Oslo.

He has been challenged to stand debate over his issues, with all security granted. So far Peder/Fjord has refused. Instead he prefers to continue his writing on websides where he so far has met no opposition or have been confronted with facts.

That leeds most of us to anticipate that Peder/Fjordman has so little confidence in his own allegations that he does not risk being dismantled in an open debate where he would meet his opponents on equal terms. Regarding the lack of credibility in Peder/Fjordman's writings, I can well understand his hesitation.

Fjordman said...

Condor: As a matter of fact, I haven't been in Oslo for one second since the VG interview was published a couple of months ago, partly for security reasons. This is also publicly known. You have obviously not read my texts, either, and have thereby disqualified yourself from further debate.

As for participating in the public debate: I am a writer and participate by writing texts. In case you haven't noticed, this post is dedicated to an essay I wrote under my real name for the largest newspaper in the Oslo region, which they refused to publish. Press censorship is the very reason why I started blogging in the first place. If you are referring to Abid Raja, I consider him to be a clown, not an intellectual, and debating him on TV would make me a circus clown as well. I write essays, end of story. And for the record: All of the articles about me in the mainstream media target me personally. They never try to disprove anything I write about Islam, mass immigration or the EU. Do you know why? Because they can't.

Egghead said...

Condor: I have a "peace" of property in a French no-go zone that I would like to sell you....

Condor said...

Fjordman 1:
The whereabouts of Peder/Fjordman is not publicly known. But, Peder/Fjordman, as far as media is concerned, they all dismantle your allegations, which is quite different of targeting you personally. Abid Raja is a lawyer, so some intellectual capacity may even Peder/Fjordman grant him.

But, I do read your writings. And so do other media as well. That is also why Aftenposten find similarities in your rethoric, compared to rethoric made 70 years ago, which is the issue of the article you disliked. To prove my point, I here refer two quotes:

"Islam, and all those who practice it, must be totally and physically removed from the entire Western world."

"This is our mission at home, to approach these future decisions without hesitation, to do our duty and to remain strong. We know the enemy, we have called him by name for the last twenty years"

Maybe Peder/Fjordman can tell us when and where the quotes are from?

I make the final with the following quote, also from Peder/Fjordman:

"My advice to Westerners in general is to arm themselves immediately, first of all mentally with knowledge of the enemy and pride in their own culture and heritage, but also physically with guns and the skills to use them."

This is one of the statements Norwegian media has critisized most. Can Peder/Fjordman now tell us if he has been misunderstood, or is he still supporting his own statement in his essay in GoV September 19th 2008 ?

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Condor
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but when you have your own facts (e.g. 6% of terrorists), it’s time to recognize that there is an unabridgeable gap between us, and that further discussion will not be useful. I wonder BTW how the “researchers” who came up with the 6% figure defined terrorism, and how they even obtained reliable data given that indications of religion/ethnicity are forbidden in crime reports in most Western European countries, and the MSM purposefully obfuscate reports by referring to "les jeunes," "Asians" or omtting any such indication altogether, including pictorially. I believe that your opinions have merit as indicators of the Norwegian zeitgeist shared by the majority of Norwegians. I take great exception to that set of mental constructs, but it suffices I conclude our exchange with the statement that time will tell who is right. Let’s revisit the same issues around 2041.

syntec said...

Candor, upon reading this article from top to bottom, I can only come to the conclusion that you are either an extreme Marxist who may well have converted to Islam or you are a Third World Muslim planter trespassing on indigenous White European Christian territory.

You can try as you might to insult the intelligence of the world's non-Muslims as you are currently doing, but you will never succeed in deceiving them all on the question of Islam, its methodology, its real agenda both in Muslim and non-Muslim lands, and the violent and barbaric manifestations of its conquest throughout history.

If you don't wish to be named a Left-Wing Nazi, (National Socialism is Communism under a different guise just like Multiculturalism is, by the way and is not Ethnonationalism), then stop behaving like one.

Fjordman said...

Condor: Not a single person in the press or elsewhere has ever managed to find anything substantially wrong in the factual information I have published about Islam. No, I do not think that Islam can be reformed or belong in our societies.

Having an armed populace is one of the best guarantees for freedom. That would still be true if Islam didn't exist.

Egghead said...

"My advice to Westerners in general is to arm themselves immediately, first of all mentally with knowledge of the enemy and pride in their own culture and heritage, but also physically with guns and the skills to use them."

Condor: I, for one, FULLY agree with the statement above.

What's your specific problem with the statement?

My guess is that YOU are a Muslim who wants non-Muslims to follow Sharia Law which gives supremacist Muslims the permission and duty to violently attack non-Muslims - and non-Muslims must accept the Muslim attack without fighting back.

Yes, we know very well WHO (jihadi Muslims), WHAT (implementation of Sharia Law), and WHY (edict of Mohammed pretending to be Allah) Islam is the absolute enemy of Western civilization.

ZZMike said...

Takuan Seiyo: "First, if you provided a bulletproof transportation and armed police escort throughout the event, plus 24-hr police protection ..."

Two names: Theo van Gogh, Geert Wilders. Others may suggest themselves. Those Who Are Easily Offended (i.e., Muslims) tend to bypass the civilized aspects of debate and rebuttal.

Mr Condor repeats himself

Takuan Seiyo said...

Re: Allegations of face-to-face debatability with Muslims and Useful Idiots

Fjordman has already addressed here his specific circumstances in Norway. I would like to add a general observation.

This is how a debate with Muslims and white useful idiots for Islam looks.

And this is how a debate looks between a white intellectual with his brain still untainted, and Antifa types.

And that’s in countries (U.S. and Canada) where a far smaller share of the population has had its brains laundered with the Nordic type of We Are the World wash, and freedom of speech has much more stringent protections.

Condor said...

Peder/Fjordman say: "Not a single person in the press or elsewhere has ever managed to find anything substantially wrong in the "factual" (!) information I have published about islam".

No ?

Well, let's start with the article starting this debate. Last sentence, second chapter:

" Is it a coincidence that a disproportionate number of Western converts to Islam are neo-Nazis or Marxists? Do they share a common totalitarian DNA?"

Would it be possible for Peder/Fjordman just to reveal a significantly piece of evidence of this allegation ?

Here is another one:

"In contrast, Eurabia - which asserts that the Islamicization of Europe didn't happen merely by accident but with the active participation of European political leaders - is hardly ever referred to at all, despite the fact that it is easier to document. Does the notion of Eurabia hit too close to home? Perhaps it doesn't fit with the anti-American disposition of many journalists? Curiously enough, even those left-leaning journalists who are otherwise critical of the European Union because of its free market elements never write about Eurabia."

Where may Peder/fjordman find any piece of significant dokumentation for his allegation that "Islamicization of Europe didn't happen merely by accident but with the active participation of European political leaders?" Or is the statement another example of Peder/Fjordman's nonsence he hesitates to defend?

Peder/Fjordman, you are here not exposed to any other "threat" than being confronted verbally about your allegations, so you are completely free to give an exact answer. Which you did not give to the questions I sent you about quotes commented in the Aftenposten article mentioned above. I therefore allow myself to repeat them:

"Islam, and all those who practice it, must be totally and physically removed from the entire Western world."

"This is our mission at home, to approach these future decisions without hesitation, to do our duty and to remain strong. We know the enemy, we have called him by name for the last twenty years"

The question is: Do you still support these statements?

Condor said...

Dear Takuan Seiyo.
If you do not believe in the facts that only 6% of terrorist acts in Europe were committed by islamic groups, there would be an unabridgeable gap between you an the International Police Association, as these are official statistics from the European Police Authorities.

But I was a little bit wrong, the percentage of Islamic terror acts in Europe the last 4 years are less than 1%. Sorry for exaggerating the figure of islamic terrorist acts. Here you have the actual statistics from Europol:

"The last four years 1890 planned, opposed or committed terrorist acts are registered in EU. Of these only six - 6 - were connected to militant islamics.
99,7 % of the terrorist activities have nothing to do with Islam, say Europol. Most terrorist acts are committed in Spain and France. In 2009 they accounted for 237 of total 294 terrorist acts. In 2008 515 were registered: Separatists: 397, left-wing radicals: 28, single acts: 5, unspecified: 11, islamists:0."

I hope this piece of facts may be helpful for Takyan Seiyo in his struggle for thruthful information.

Condor said...

Syntec and egghead: I hope you forgive me that the use of meaningless personal labels and adjectives prevents me from commenting most of yor writings. But I would sincerely like to ask if egghead could provide any significant documentations for his following allegations:

"My guess is that YOU are a Muslim who wants non-Muslims to follow Sharia Law which gives supremacist Muslims the permission and duty to violently attack non-Muslims - and non-Muslims must accept the Muslim attack without fighting back.

Yes, we know very well WHO (jihadi Muslims), WHAT (implementation of Sharia Law), and WHY (edict of Mohammed pretending to be Allah) Islam is the absolute enemy of Western civilization."

Would that be doable?

Takuan Seiyo said...

Condor,
As I alluded before, you are too young, too foolish, too uneducated and too brainwashed to merit a debate or even a response from a person probably twice your age and experience, three times your education (assuming you are a university graduate) and six times your other attainments in the world. But such exchanges are useful for those who may be reading them. And thank you for venturing into unfriendly territory; it’s instructive for both sides.

--Please relay Europol’s definition of “terrorist act.”
--Please relay Europol’s figures for acts of terror committed by “nonmilitant” Muslims.
--Please relay Europol’s definition of “Muslim.”
--Please relay specifically whether a pervasive pattern of rapes of European women by Muslim males, beatings, assaults with weapons (including knives, sticks and stones) and intimidation of European men by Muslim men, razzias targeting European Jews, violent attacks on police, firefighters and paramedics (including planned ambushes), large scale arson and thrashing of European property, loud disruptions of political debates, ostentatious displays of Islamic ritual in public Europeans spaces etc. are included in Europol's definition of Muslim terrorist --for deliberately terrorizing-- activity.
--Please relay the names, ethnicity and political party affiliation of Europol’s top 30 executives as well as those in a higher authority approving Europol’s budget.

Hall Var her said...

Eurabia is a political neologism that refers to the perceived Arabization and Islamization of Europe.the theory is that because of continued mosque constructions, immigration, high birth rates, and European leaders perceived capitulation to Islamic influences, the Muslim population in Europe will become a majority within a few generations...(i hope i got that right!)

im not the smartes guy on on this blog, not by a loong shot, im at most average. but even i can see that the Eurabia teori for what it is, a conspiracy theory. is just like beliving that the US goverment did the 9/11 attacks themselves or beliving in the loch ness monster!!it just dont hold any water!!! its paranoid jibberish! yeah, you could probably find "evidence" that it is happening, but you can also find "evidence" that the story behind loch ness monster is true.....

and like i said, im not the smartest guy around, so my english is not good enough to really explain my train of thougts about that subject in english.

like i said, for me the paranoid Eurabia theori is jibberis and you should rather focus on the real problem...mass imigration!
i dont see myself as a racist, for me its a question about economics, not who is the "master race".(hehehehe). for when you get a large number of unemployd, uneducated people and from a diffrent culture it breeds poverty and povertry breeds discouragement and out of that you get anger. look
at the riots in france and england(IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION), that was a sign of things to come if we dont change that policy. but more and more europen countries are realising that so they are tighten up their borders. but im not against all imigration. in my country, norway, we need imigigrants to fill all jobs.so its not all bad, but we need more control on who we let in.....and it proably would be a boring place if everyone where like "me".

i probably could go on and on about both Eurabia and imigration. i like a discussion. but i sence that discussing whit some of the people on this site is usless. not becuse they/you are dumb. its rather the opposite. it probably would be easier to dicsuss and get trough with som points to a girl with pms...than very smart people who has brainwashed themselves;)

(and like i said, my english aint that good, so dont hate on spelling errors)

Fjordman said...

Condor: I have written tens of thousands of words on those very subjects. Start with my Eurabia Code, which is available online. The fact that you have not read this reveals that you are lazy in addition to being ignorant. Read my stuff first. Come back when you have done so. Otherwise, you are a troll and should be treated as such.

Condor said...

My dear Peder/Fjordman, you boasted that no-one ever had been able to contradict your writings about islam. In my first dismantling of your writings, I simply quoted a few lines from your socalled hoax "Eurabia Code", and asked you to bring forward just a single piece of significant dokumentation for your allegation:

"Islamicization of Europe didn't happen merely by accident but with the active participation of European political leaders?".

In an intellectual debate, your credibility is relayed upon your ability to documentate your statements or allegations. Tens of tousands words are worthless if they are without substance.

Peder/Fjordman's responce with adjectives and none-whatsoever attemt even to try to give a credible answer, is a strong indication that he may be unable to do so. It also gave me a better understanding of why Peder/Fjordman feared he would be "a circus clown" in an open debate, as he wrote earlier.

Condor said...

Takuan Seiyo, your responce here:

"Condor,
As I alluded before, you are too young, too foolish, too uneducated and too brainwashed to merit a debate or even a response from a person probably twice your age and experience, three times your education (assuming you are a university graduate) and six times your other attainments in the world."

to the data from Europol I presented for you, telling that the last four years, out of 1890 planned, opposed or committed terrorist acts registered in EU, only six - 6 - were connected to militant islamics, tells me that the statistic facts I presented for you, may have been a severe blow to your perception of reality.

If you want to, I can follow up with statistics from the Norwegian Bureau of Statistics (SSB) telling that the immigrants groups in Norway have a lower average crimerate than ethnick Norwegians. Data collected over a 15 year period tells this very clearly. And muslims are have an even lower average crimerate than the other immigrant groups.

So I still wander where you find your "sources" for your allegation that "all terrorists are muslims".

Condor said...

Hall Var her said...
42 Eurabia is a political neologism that refers to the perceived Arabization and Islamization of Europe.the theory is that because of continued mosque constructions, immigration, high birth rates, and European leaders perceived capitulation to Islamic influences, the Muslim population in Europe will become a majority within a few generations.

Here I find another allegation often used to create a monstrous image of muslims, and I would just challenge Hall Var to give just some pieces of evidence, or other significant dokumentation, to try to give it at least a tiny little bit of credibility.

To make it easy, I will use Norway as an example, since writers like Peder/Fjordman and others have put forward fear of Norway being an islamic state within 50 years of time.

First: Norwegian population totals almost 5 million. We have 600.000 first and second generation immigrants. 1/6th of these, ca. 105.000, are muslims. The birth-rate of second generation muslims in Norway is about 2,1, the birth rate of ethnic Norwegians is 1,9.

I would appreciate if Hall Var, or any other, could present any credible account of how the muslims in Norway could grow to a majority within, let us say, 100 years from now, with the figures and birth-rates involved.

Hall Var her said...

Condor:I`m no supporter of the Eurabia theory!! like i wrote, for me its paranoid jibberish! the biggest red flag is "European leaders capitulation to Islamic influences". its just so far out that i dont wanna waste time looking for evidence. i havent red much of fjordmans writings, ive just looked at it with half an eye. so im noe expert and have realy no good comments. maybee i`ll come back later when ive looked more into it. and like i also wrote,"im not the smartes guy on on this blog, not by a loong shot, im at most average". so dont hold your breath waitng for me! hehehehe!

Egghead said...

Condor: How about we switch this up, and you provide us with links to unbiased sources that verify your claims - especially your ridiculous assertion that Muslim immigrants and second and third generation immigrant heirs show lower crime rates than others.

Only a Muslim practicing taqiyya (religious lying to advance the Arab supremacist goals of Islam) could be as deceitful as you.

Please supply actual links versus simple statements.

Muslims born and raised in violent and/or war-torn Muslim countries following 1) the violent example of Mohammed and 2) the violent instructions of Sharia Law, those Muslims perpetuate that violence when they enter the West - and refuse to assimilate - instead demanding 1) separate enclaves that become violent no-go zones for non-Muslims, and 2) Sharia-compliant accommodations outside of their violent no-go zones.

Egghead said...

Hall Var her: You also appear to be practicing Muslim taqiyya.

Your first sentence is perfectly written at a very high level of grammar and comprehension whereas the rest of your comments appear folksy. He he he.

Your claim that poverty is the cause of violence is a favorite excuse of Muslims who know very well that the Koranic mandate of jihad is a call to arms against non-Muslims - violent arms rather than peaceful introspection.

Your claim that the French and English riots are independent of religion is laughable. First of all, which riots? There are so many to choose from including the escalating French Muslim New Year Car-be-ques and English Muslim demonstrations against soldiers returning from Muslim countries.

Your juvenile "insult" comparing anti-jihadis to a girl with pms smacks of Muslim views of women.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Egghead
I don’t believe that the Norwegian gentlemen are Muslims practicing taqiyaa. They are products of Norwegian multiculti Socialism, and that’s a religion. It is not allowed in that cult that Reality interfere with the faith. They are nice young men who went through the brain rearranging plan at Utoya and elsewhere since they were children.

To bolster your argument, one should mention that Mohammed Bouyeri, the slayer of Theo Van Gogh, was a born Dutchman. And the argument that not all rioters etc. are practicing Muslim is true, but that weakens the position of your interlocutors. Many of “les jeunes” in France or “Asian” gangs in GB are non-religious, but they hail from barbarian Muslim countries and express the barbarian sediments of both Islam and their much older and inferior to Western, native cultures. Which means that the West is better off without any immigrants from Muslim countries, whether religious or secular, nor can it trust that the weakening of religious Islamic influence in future generations will bring relief.

The claim that poverty is the cause of violence is a favorite excuse of Socialists, not of Muslims. Muslims have been suffering great poverty in their countries of origin without a peep, for they know what’s the price of complaining. Now it’s different -- they have a “Spring” -- for they have been egged on by the Socialist ruling elite in Europe and America. And that’s why they complain, riot, etc. in Europe too: it’s the Muslim –Socialist alliance, and you cannot delete the native European or American useful idiots from the equation.

As to Mr. Hall Var, he also ridicules “Eurabia” as a conspiracy theory and kook thing, which makes plain that he has not read or read and not thought about either Fjordman's or Bat Ye’or's writings. Nor can he acknowledge instances in which the destructive scheme has been brazenly acknowledged, for the Snatchers-in-charge are now so rooted in power that they don't need to hide their designs. Examples include the “Mediterranean Initiative,” British Labour’s plan of population replacement via immigration, and recorded utterances of U.S. parliamentarians’ asking in meetings with Mexican gov. officials: “Send us more; we like them.”

Had out Norwegian visitors treated this website seriously rather than just dropping in for a troll session, they would have known that in my last essay I summarized all these and provided evidentiary links.

Condor said...

Egghead said:
"Condor: How about we switch this up, and you provide us with links to unbiased sources that verify your claims - especially your ridiculous assertion that Muslim immigrants and second and third generation immigrant heirs show lower crime rates than others.

Only a Muslim practicing taqiyya (religious lying to advance the Arab supremacist goals of Islam) could be as deceitful as you."

As I always deal with facts and not fictions, it is my great pleasure to provide egghead with the figures and statistics from the Norwegian Bureau of Statistics (SSB) here:

http://ssb.no/a_krim_tab/tab/tab-2009-03-17-01.html

where data tells the truth about crimerates of ethnic Norwegians, immigrants in special, and also muslims, where the two last groups have a lower average crime-rate than ethnic Norwegians.

The rest of eggheads comment holds a lowK level I will ask the editor to forgive me for not giving any more attention, simply because it has a vast distance from any reality.

Condor said...

Oh, mr. Takuan Seiyo, I really threat both this webside, and all the debate participants, very seriously. Therefore I build my arguing on bolstered facts, and regards everybody else to do the same, in what is a good debate culture inherited from the Greek orators two and a half millenium back.

As Takuan Seiyo has provided no evidence or anything else to defend his saying that "all terrorists are muslims" we may conclude that his allegation was nothing but a hoax, confronted with the facts I presented him from Europol.

Takuan Seiyo set forward a new allegation:
" West is better off without any immigrants from Muslim countries, whether religious or secular, nor can it trust that the weakening of religious Islamic influence in future generations will bring relief."

So, in deep respect of argument documentation, I once again politely ask mr. Takuan Seiyo if he is able to bolster this statement with any significant evidence, statistics, crime-rates or anything else.

And in the same moment, maybe Takyan Seiyo may help Peder/Fjordman to bolster the allegations about what we regard as the hoax about "Eurabia", more spesific the sentence:

"Islamicization of Europe didn't happen merely by accident but with the active participation of European political leaders?"

Would that be doable ?

Hall Var her said...

Muslim taqiyya? is that conceling my relgion or beliefs? i was thinking you got no sence of humor Egghead,"Your juvenile "insult" comparing anti-jihadis to a girl with pms smacks of Muslim views of women", but boy you got me laughing:)
i am as hardcore atheist as they come and im always willing to stand up and for my belifes. ive been called racist and nazi for my oppinons on immigration, but that is from people who cant back up their oppions so they label me as such to rise above me. but i dont care, they just show how ignorant they are!
and for the riots i was thinking about is what happend in paris\france when police where accused for chasing 2 young men to their death( they hid from the police in a transformator) and in london when cops shot and killed a man in a shootout. i dont remeber where, but i have red somwere that
it was a evidence of the eurabia therory is happening. for me that has do with poverty and discouragement. and you also got a large number of young 2 and 3 genertation muslim immigratns who supports "the jihhad movment against the west", not because they are hardcore muslims , they just do it to piss off the "establishment", similar to what punks did in the 70/80`s and goths in the 90/00`s...so probably you get smaller riots that i dont know of.

and you Takuan Seiyo you may be a smart guy, but come on! "They are nice young men who went through the brain rearranging plan at Utoya and elsewhere since they were children." that really, really rubbed me the wrong way! so you are saying that most children in norway are beeing indoctrinated to some kind of politcal movment?? the reality is that most kids i norway dont give a damn about politics! i bet fjordman can back me on that one. look at the
election polls after 22july, poeple where saying it was going to be the higste number of voters in norweigan history, but what happend? almost nothing;)
and mr.Takun, "Muslims have been suffering great poverty in their countries of origin without a peep". that claim is as lowbrow as they come. how do you know that that i true? most of them are living under corruput and realy domintant regimes. and for most of the 2-3 genertion muslim in europe, they arent realy practising islam and going to mosques, they are listing to rap music, drinking and hooking up with girls in the weekend and supports the jihad movement just because they are kids with a bad attiude. and i admitted that i havent read most of fjordmans or Bat Ye’or's writings, i also
amitted that i probaly are far from the smartes person on this site and that im going to look into the eurabia tehory more, so that i know more and can discuss on a "higer level" . i hate when people say an oppinoin and cant back why...so i cant discuss on the level i want yet. and where not planing on commenting anything more on the euarbia theory before i got more knowledge about it, i juts know it in general.. but you and egghead rubbed me a bit
the wrong way, so i could not help myself.

Egghead said...

Condor: The link that you provide appears to me to be a "product" of the Norwegian government. In my cursory search, I did NOT see the name Interpol anywhere.

Also, the cited crime data is from 2004 and 2007, and thus is dated.

Unfortunately, I cannot open the various PDFs on this particular computer. I will try on another computer later and comment again if I can open them.

Now, it is YOUR turn to make a good faith effort and read through the two links that I provided above for The Center for the Study of Political Islam (showing that Islam focuses on murdering and/or enslaving the non-Muslim) and The Religion of Peace (showing the extremely high incidence of Muslim generated terrorism in the world).

"From the establishment of Statistics Norway [1876] and towards the turn of the century there was a steady drive to centralise the production of official statistics, meaning that the production of statistics, often a by-product of other activities in different government agencies, was moved to Statistics Norway. This changed in the period 1900-1920 when the production was decentralised. From the 1920s and onwards, however, the production of statistics was again centralised and today Statistics Norway produce about 85-90 per cent of official statistics in Norway."

...

"Norway`s first Statistics Act provided the legal basis for compiling information from private citizens and businesses directly for statistical purposes. The law also maintained that this information could not be used for any other purposes than the production of statistics, and was not to be made public in any way that could harm the individual citizen or business."

Egghead said...

Hall Var her: I may have rubbed you a bit the wrong way, BUT at least I fight to let the Muslim "girl with pms" to keep her clitoris.

It rubs me the wrong way when "Westernized" Muslims force their pre-teen girls to go "home" to Muslim countries over summer break in order to cut off their pre-teen clitorises.

What PROOF do you have that second and third generation Muslim immigrants are just "acting out" rather than believing in Muslim jihad?!

Various recent mass media surveys of Muslims indicate that a handy majority of Muslims in the West (and in Muslim countries) fully approve of the use of terror and the institution of Sharia Law - as directed by Mohammed in the Koran, Sira, and Hadith.

Before you research Eurabia, you should research Islam at the Center for the Political Study of Islam.

Muslims have been conquering naive and innocent people for 1,400 years. It's time to take the blinders off and see the truth about Islam.

Islam produces poverty - especially for non-Muslims enslaved by Sharia Law.

Look to the Christian Copts to see your future under Islam.

Condor said...

Egghead....
Yes, the link I provided for you, is from the Norwegian Bureau of Statistics (SSB) which is not the government, but the center of statistics of Norway. And when you read and understand the graph and figures I provided for you, you will clearly see that Norwegian muslims have the lowes average crime-rate of all Norwegian people groups.

If you want to be more updated on the terrorist side of statistics in Europe, you wil find here:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

that only 0,4% av all terrorist acts in Europe was related to islamic's. And more about this statistics you will find here:

www.europol.europa.eu

and after this I assume we can conclude that "only a tiny fraction (0,4%) of terrorists in Europe are muslims".

Based on hard facts and no assumptions or hoax.

Condor said...

Egghead...
Now, it is YOUR turn to make a good faith effort and read through the two links that I provided above for The Center for the Study of Political Islam (showing that Islam focuses on murdering and/or enslaving the non-Muslim) and The Religion of Peace (showing the extremely high incidence of Muslim generated terrorism in the world)."

I have already done so, but this is another example of twisted presentation. Simply because most islamic terrorism is aimed at and strikes fellow-muslims, but from another branch of the religion. If you look at the statistics of terrorist attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places in that area, you will se that more clearly.

Nilk said...

LAte again, but never mind.

Hall Var her, with respect to the case in Paris where the police chased two young men who hid in a transformer and subsequently got electrocuted.

Perhaps if they'd not run from the police in the first place they would still be alive. They were not just some innocent passers-by that the police decided to harass.

In London, the man shot in a shoot-out was likewise no mere bystander. And in a country where guns are outlawed, how did he manage to find himself in a gunfight? Oh, yes, he had a real gun and was shooting real bullets.

At the police.

In cases like these, there are elements who stir up the hatred and jealousy of the population. they want to bring on the Revolution, whether it's a socialist one or an islamist one.

If it came to a showdown between the socialists and the islamists, my money's on islam every time.

We're in a war that's not exactly cold, and definitely not hot - maybe tepid - and people like you will find yourself without the means to defend yourself.

If you think that Fjordman's theories are wrong, please read the quran and the Reliance of the Traveller, then have a look at historical reports from before about 1980 so that they're not too politically corrected.

Why was Bouyeri happy to declare that he'd kill Van Gogh again? Because he is. He's supporting islam and allah.

It's very difficult to remove the blinkers, because once you do, you can't put them back on, and to admit that your country has gone to the dogs and maybe, just maybe, you've been lied to by the government and other authoritarian figures is devastating.

When you can do that, you can know true freedom of the mind.

Welcome to the debate. :D

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Nilk
Well said. One thing to remember in all debates with the Left of all stripes, and that includes the average Northern European, is this:

We think they are wrong. They think we are evil.

We live on two different planets.

Egghead said...

Condor: Does it bother you at all that the French government currently provides an official government list of 750+ Muslim no-go zones which are sovereign Muslim territories containing millions of Muslims where Muslims are free to initiate severe physical abuse or death to non-Muslims who dare to enter?!

Does it bother you at all that millions of Muslim immigrants and their second and third generation heirs are also devising no-go zones in the rest of Europe?!

Does it bother you at all that these no-go zones act as operating bases for Muslims to commit serious crimes that specifically target non-Muslims for violent rape - often gang rape directed at young teens and women - and theft based on the direct instruction of Sharia Law to exact jizya from non-Muslims?!

Jizya

Doers it bother you at all that these no-go zones are considered to be like the game of connect the dots where Muslims plan to expand their no-go zones from each dot until all of the dots finally connect into a worldwide ummah?

Ummah

Does it bother you at all that the bellwether Jews are moving OUT of countries with substantial Muslim populations due to substantially increased violent threats and assaults perpetrated upon them by Muslims?!

Does it bother you at all that Arab Muslims have a well-known saying, "First the Saturday people, and then the Sunday people" that is often chanted by the Western-jizya-supported PLO/PA at anti-Israel rallies?!

Then the Sunday People

"Jews at the mercy of Muslims have Israel and the Law of Return guarantees sanctuary to them. Coptic Christians in Egypt, however, and other Christians in Muslim countries, often have nowhere to else to go."

Does it bother you at all that you are already a low class dhimmi in your own country - spouting Muslim taqiyya without even realizing it?!

Dhimmi

E.J. Bron said...

Dutch translation:

http://ejbron.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/fjordman-zijn-islamcritici-de-nazi%C2%B4s-van-nu/

ZZMike said...

Condor: "As Takuan Seiyo has provided no evidence or anything else to defend his saying that "all terrorists are muslims".

I heartily agree. 99.99% of Muslims worldwide are peaceful.

But 99.99% of all terrorists are Muslims.

For every Anders Breivik you bring up, I can post 100 Muslim names. Add to those the names of fathers who kill their daughters for being raped, or who force their 11-year-old daughters into forced marriages.

Condor is a lost cause. Let him go. Perhaps he will find peace in a banlieue.

You might also want to know about "loonwatch":

"Loonwatch.com is a blogzine run by a motley group of hate-allergic bloggers to monitor and expose the web’s plethora of anti-Muslim loons, wackos, and conspiracy theorists."

That's their only identification. No names; hiding behind anonymity.

Take a look, if you've got the stomach for it. Everything there is dubious.If they reported that the Sun would rise tomorrow, I'd go check with the weather service first.