Saturday, March 12, 2011

Does Islam Belong to Germany?

For many years it was forbidden to have a serious public debate about the Islamization of Germany. Pointing out the growing presence of a parallel Turkish society in many German cities was considered off-limits. The fact that a substantial number of Turks in such enclaves were becoming Islamic militants was also to be brushed aside — let the security services handle it; it was not a topic for public discussion.

All that has changed over the last few months, with Thilo Sarrazin’s book leading the new wave of glasnost concerning immigration. Mr. Sarrazin’s book became a best-seller overnight, and everyone is now talking about immigration and Islam.

The new openness does not mean the rules of discourse have changed — glasnost has yet to be followed by perestroika. Much media coverage is devoted to the attempt to demonize and suppress anyone who dares depart from the politically correct multicultural “narrative” that has been dominant in Germany for the last two generations. Politicians — many of whom rely on the Turkish vote for their margin of victory — continue to repeat the mantra that “Islam is a part of Germany” in an attempt to dispel any lingering public misgivings about the long-term consequences of such an assertion.

Yet the dissenting voices are being heard in ever-greater numbers. The Minister for the Interior, Hans-Peter Friedrich, is the latest to break out of the straitjacket and express heretical doubts about whether Islam really is a part of Germany.

Even Mr. Friedrich, however, confines himself to the mildest of anti-PC statements. He hastens to assure his audience that “people of the Islamic faith who live in the federal republic… naturally belong to the country as citizens.”

In other words, those who made it to Germany in the past and continue to reside there somehow belong there, despite their parallel society and enmity to German culture. In a sense, the Greens are right to say that “[a]ll Friedrich has to do… is go out on the street in Berlin and see who is living here” to realize that Islam belongs to Germany — the facts on the ground prove it.

So there’s a long way to go before a prominent politician in any major party is willing to plunge into the deep waters of Islamophobia and assert that it is the presence of Islam in Germany that is the problem, and not how long the immigrants have been there or how quickly they learn German.

Many thanks to JLH for translating the following article from Die Zeit online:

For Friedrich, Islam Does Not Belong to Germany

Thomas Peters, Reuters

Hans-Peter FriedrichThe new interior minister had barely received notice of his appointment from the Federal President when he contradicted the head of state: Islam is not a part of Germany.

Federal President Christian Wulff unleashed a debate in Germany with the statement: “By now Islam belongs to Germany.” Now the new minister for the interior, Hans-Peter Friedrich, has contradicted him. During the press conference shortly after he assumed office, he said: “That Islam belongs to Germany is not proved by history.” The CSU politician said that people of the Islamic faith who live in the federal republic, however, naturally belong to the country as citizens.

Friedrich continued that he stands by the opinion on the subject which he had given voice to in the Bundestag in the Fall as chief of the CSU state group. At that time, he had commented on Wulff’s speech on the Day of Unity, that the guiding culture in Germany is the Judaeo-Christian culture. “It is not the Islamic culture and it will not be in the future either.”

The Greens reacted with outrage to Friedrich’s comment.

“Hans-Peter Friedrich has not yet been interior minister for 24 hours and already he is already smashing the china,” Said fraction head Renate Künast. All Friedrich has to do, she said, is go out on the street in Berlin and see who is living here. For a long time, there have been many people who have the central point of their lives here. “That is why Islam belongs to Germany.”

Greens chief, Cem Özdemir explained that Friedrich apparently has “a crude understanding of society if he accepts that people of Islamic faith are part of Germany in 2011 and simultaneously declares Islam not to be, on historical grounds.

Friedrich’s reply was that, as responsible minister, he intended to accord the Islam conference a high value. It is, he said, matter of utilizing the different potentials of a society. Part of that is “bringing things together and not driving them apart and polarizing them.”

The German Islamic Conference is a platform for a dialogue between the state and the representatives of about million Muslims in Germany.* It was started in 2006 by then Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU). Friedrich emphasized immediately that anyone who lives or grows up in Germany and wants to be integrated here, “must above all else know German.” With that, like other representatives of the government, he contradicted the comments of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. , who had told his compatriots this past weekend in Düsseldorf that Turkish children in Germany must first learn Turkish and then German.


* As noted in a previous posting on Gates of Vienna, one problem with the conference has been its domination by militant groups, like Milli Görüs, to the exclusion of individuals and dissenters.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

I feel that Erdogan's blustering arrogance is also playing a useful role in stirring up the debate about Islam in Germany.

Anonymous said...

Having consulted with my favorite german translator, i am still of he opinion that the title has been mistranslated. it should be "belong IN Germany". Come on! Why would Germany take possession of Islam, as "belong to" suggests?

goethechosemercy said...

Does Islam belong to Germany?
Not if the Turks can help it!
If anything, Germany will belong to Islam!

urah2222 said...

As Germany did in WW II to primarily assimilated Europeans, just imagine what they are capable of against Turks if "the baloon goes up."

Dr. Shalit

Zenster said...

The Minister for the Interior, Hans-Peter Friedrich, is the latest to break out of the straitjacket and express heretical doubts about whether Islam really is a part of Germany.

Herr Friedrich commits a fundamental category error in even bothering to consider “whether Islam really is a part of Germany”.

ISLAM IS “A PART OF” NOTHING. According to Qur’anic scripture everything is, or will be, part of Islam. Any confusion or lack of clarity regarding this only serves the ends of Islam.

Once this fundamental mis-perception is eliminated, all sorts of meaningful conclusions become feasible that could not possibly have been reached before. Islam brooks no co-opting and those who envision any sort of equitable relationship with it are in for the very worst sort of disappointment. The graveyard is filled with such delusional types and Islam continues to fill coffin after coffin with starry-eyed newcomers who cannot bring themselves to believe otherwise.

Zenster said...

Dr. Shalit: As Germany did in WW II to primarily assimilated Europeans, just imagine what they are capable of against Turks if "the balloon goes up."

Good Doctor, I have tried to make this point myself and run into some opposition. Would you please be so kind as to elaborate upon this for the enlightenment of others?

Equally welcome would be your own views about those Jews who are participating in the Coordinating Committee of European Muslim and Jewish Leaders. I believe that these are some seriously misguided individuals who could just as easily help precipitate some exceptionally dire consequences for both Muslims and themselves alike.

Anonymous said...

When one has a malignant tumor they have cancer cells in their body. So I guess technically the cells "belong" to the body. Only problem is that they will eventually kill that body.

English Pensioner said...

Surely it is not a matter as to whether "Islam belongs to Germany" (I thought it belonged to Imams and Mullahs), but whether "Germany belongs to Islam" which is far more worrying. Clearly there are many here who seem th think that "Britain belongs to Islam" when you look at the way we seem to keep giving in to their every whim.
Look out, America, here they come!

Blogger said...

Islam, by its very nature and doctrines, can NEVER belong to anyone or anything, especially part of Dar El Harb.

We are seeing a very positive trend as more and more discussion is brought out into the open and into the mainstream. Let's all of us encourage it to continue.

LAW Wells said...

Indeed, I recall Mahatma Gandhi outlining the four-step process of winning a culture war like this - first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they attack you, and then you win.

Seems we're moving into the second phase.

laine said...

How long can Muslims like Erdogan get away with their double standard? They demand that Muslims in the West be able to live their lives for all the world as though they were in a Muslim country without taking on any duties toward their adopted lands including even the bare minimum of learning to speak the hosts' language! Clearly these are not immigrants but colonists. But move to Turkey or Saudi Arabia and see how far you get demanding an education in German or the right to build your places of worship. How many Muslims have been imprisoned in the West for the mere act of carrying a Koran, or proselytizing for their religion? How many Muslim civilians have been killed in cold blood by people of any other faith for insulting their religion?

The West is absolutely idiotic in not highlighting this double standard. Instead of constantly playing defense, they should be giving Muslim leaders the contempt they deserve for their constant demands without a scintilla of RECIPROCITY.

The Greens (really watermelons, total communists on the inside) should be shut up in the same way by redirecting them to protesting on behalf of non-Muslims suffering harassment, loss of property and life in Muslim lands before vociferously defending Muslims against relative hangnails in western countries. Western leaders are utter fools not going on the verbal offensive. Chamberlains all, and silencing the few sensible voices that are raised against their cultural suicide and homicide.

hadley said...

@Zenster: "Equally welcome would be your own views about those Jews who are participating in the Coordinating Committee of European Muslim and Jewish Leaders. I believe that these are some seriously misguided individuals who could just as easily help precipitate some exceptionally dire consequences for both Muslims and themselves alike."

Zenster, it is generally accepted by Jews around the world that the Muslim domination of Spain for 700 years was a golden era of Jewish life and scholarship. Jews were wealthy in Spain and treated quite well by the Muslims. In fact the Jews preferred dhimmi status since it guaranteed respect and equal treatment for them as a minority.

In the dominant Jewish view it was better to have dhimmi status under Muslim domination than be constantly proselytized by Christians.

The same calculus applies to the thinking of modern Jews who recognize they will always be in the minority in Europe.

From the perspective of permanent Jewish minorityhood, white nationalism is a much greater threat than dhimmihood under Muslim rule.

From their perspective it is much better that the whites of Europe be trained to act like the Muslim rulers of Spain: let minorities run their own colonies/ghettos as long a they pay a nominal sum every year. Jews were always able to pay the jizya under Spanish Muslim rule. They greatly valued the power to rule their own people under Jewish law.

Fro mtheir perspective, who cares if Islam or Christendom rules Europe as long as the rulers permit self-ruling minority colonies as the Muslims did in Spain -- the Golden Age of Judaism.

They would rather have Muslim domination by strong Muslim rulers who keep Muslim peasants in line than live with Southern Baptists constantly trying to proselytize them. You know what Jews call intermarriage? "The Second Holocaust".

So please, there is nothing misguided about all the organized Jewish groups joining together to fight for alien colonies in Europe and America. Better a Muslim ruler who lets all nations live in his land by paying a small tax than rule by Christians with their "assimilation" (i.e. cultural destruction) foolishness.

How many Jews were killed by Muslims last year? 10? 100? 1000?

How many Jews were genocided by marrying non-Jews last year? 10,000? 100,000?

Which is the greater threat to the Jewish nation?

laine said...

Hadley's comment adds another piece of the puzzle toward solving the question that comes up over and over again in conservative blogs about why are diaspora Jews so stubbornly left wing with their votes and monetary support long after the Left has turned on Israel and made pets of the Palestinians? According to Hadley, they think they'll be better off as they once were under Muslim rule, even in a Golden Age. This belief is arguable. Some historians Bostom? have said the good treatment of Jews by Muslims was more myth than reality, more exceptional than the norm. If you look at the Koran and Mohammed's example, Muslims' guideposts, it's hard to believe the eternal enmity expressed toward Jews therein is so softened by willing dhimmitude as to be preferable to living among Euro-Christians who have all evolved secular government. The Christian proselytizing that supposedly goes on appears undetectable. Is it really so large an irritant and are Christians being blamed for Jews' intermarriage with non-Jews? However, all that matters is whether Jews believe these things to be so, however unlikely it seems that the second coming of the Caliphate will put them in a better position overall. It fits with Michael Medved's comment that Jews abhor Christianity in a way they do not other religions and Dr. Kevin MacDonald's observations that Jews work for their own ethnic survival and their interests can be contrary to the interests of Euro-Christian survival as a culture.

Zenster said...

hadley: From the perspective of permanent Jewish minorityhood, white nationalism is a much greater threat than dhimmihood under Muslim rule.

I thank laine for having capably taken this dubious proposition to task.

laine: If you look at the Koran and Mohammed's example, Muslims' guideposts, it's hard to believe the eternal enmity expressed toward Jews therein is so softened by willing dhimmitude as to be preferable to living among Euro-Christians who have all evolved secular government.

However, perception can be everything to some people and, therefore, the following pertains:

However, all that matters is whether Jews believe these things to be so, however unlikely it seems that the second coming of the Caliphate will put them in a better position overall.

This is why I maintain that Liberal Jews who facilitate Socialist protections for European Muslims may find themselves stepping into the crosshairs and, quite possibly, straight into Muslim shoes when, as Dr. Shalit said, "the balloon goes up."

While America need not become Nazis or terrorists to defeat Nazis and terrorists, there are no such assurances that Europe will not descend into its traditional mode of resolution.

It is also important to note that nowhere have I made direct reference to death camps. When I referred to "cattle cars" in another thread, it is only in the context of concentration camps that will pose a convenient way of facilitating mass deportation of Muslims from Europe.

Whether those modern day concentration camps attain parity with Nazi Germany's will depend upon the recalcitrance of current European leadership and how severely the overall lack of Second Amendment rights affect the response of ordinary citizens across Europe.

Zenster said...

laine: The West is absolutely idiotic in not highlighting this double standard. Instead of constantly playing defense, they should be giving Muslim leaders the contempt they deserve for their constant demands without a scintilla of RECIPROCITY.

Worth repeating. Reciprocity, linkage, or whatever you wish to call it, is going to be the ultimate measure of when the West finally sprouts a set and gets some lead in its pencil.

Anonymous said...

Rather then speak about "muslims" or islam they should be speaking about NON-WHITES including jews who do not belong in germany.

Strange how you jews love to ignore how you cause the "anti-semitism" in the first place.