Monday, June 07, 2010

A Thin Veneer

Below is an op-ed from Svenska Dagbladet by Willy Silberstein, the Chairman of the Swedish Committee Against Anti-Semitism. Our Swedish correspondent Freedom Fighter has kindly translated it for Gates of Vienna:

Anti-Semitism in full bloom

Published: June 4, 2010, 04:33

SHIP TO GAZA The last few days show that the of Jews in Sweden are struggling against serious prejudice. Anti-Semitism exists among MPs, academics and on the internet, writes Willy Silberstein, Chairman of the Swedish Committee Against Anti-Semitism.

[…]

I read on the Socialist MP Veronica Palm’s blog: “Wondering who the chosen people will burn next time?” The quote is from a song by Bjorn Afzelius.

“The chosen people” does not refer to a country, but to the Jews as a group. And in this context — and in line with traditional anti-Semitic arguments — it aims to depict Jews as superior and evil.

After what has happened, how can more prominent Social Democrats in Parliament ask the question: Who are the Jews going to burn next time?

Veronica Palm quickly got cold feet. But not because of her own insight, but because she was criticized on her blog.

So a little later she writes: “I have now understood that the song quote, taken out of context, can be perceived as bordering on anti-Semitism.”

No, Veronica Palm, it is not on the border. It is anti-Semitic. Following events in the Middle East in general terms while pointing out Jews as wanting to burn, is actually putting collective blame on a particular group.

So thin is the veneer. I’m pretty sure that Palm is not anti-Semitic. But her ignorance is serious and worrying. Veronica Palm is vice-chairman of the parliamentary social committee. She is chairman of the Social Democrats in Stockholm. To ask, Who do the Jews want to burn next time? On the border with anti-Semitism?
- - - - - - - - -
On Newsmill, Torbjorn Tännsjö writes that Jews should distance themselves from Israeli government’s actions against the Ship to Gaza. Muslims must renounce terrorism where Muslims are involved.

This will eliminate any anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

Torbjorn Tännsjö’s writings instead are an opening for anti-Semitic reactions if Jews do not reject Israel.. As every burqa-bearing woman we meet in the street must be able to produce proof that she has distanced herself from al Qaeda and so on. Otherwise, she is apparently to blame.

The veneer is thin. Tännsjö’s ideas are of the same character that we heard some time ago. Then the Jews in Malmö were told that to avoid harassment, they should condemn Israel’s war in Gaza.

Is the philosopher Tännsjö responsible for what philosophers around the world doing? If a philosopher goes berserk and kills a group of students, is it a moral duty for Tännsjö to act, or otherwise he himself will be subjected to harassment?

Through Facebook I received the following message from a person with a typically Jewish name: “For the last 48 hours, my children (who are adults) and I received about 45 phone calls on how we will be treated when they get hold of us Jews and finish the job that Hitler did not have time to do, how my children and grandchildren (and they knew the names of the children and grandchildren) should be killed in the square.”

On the Web prejudices are also in full bloom. “I hope this ends up in history books alongside all the other things about Jews and the Holocaust, that the Jews fought for ‘Democracy’ and ‘freedom’ through the pirate-like activities and murder.”

Among other things, the Swedish Committee against anti-Semitism arranges field trips for school children to concentration camps. It works not only against anti-Semitism but also against Islamophobia and homophobia, and works for people taking personal responsibility.

Nor does it escape criticism: “It is said that school children who travel to the concentration camps are paid by Israeli interests, and the ongoing abuses in the present day are not spoken about in school”.

It may be added that the trips are paid for by the schools and no one else.

Someone on the internet finds inspiration in an old Hollywood star: “I know it was Arnold Schwarzenegger who, when asked a question about why Jews have been persecuted for 2000 years and why people have always had problems with them, answered simply, ‘Where there is smoke, there is fire.’“

I think most Swedes believe that they live in a country where Jews, a small minority, have very few prejudices to contend with. But events in recent days show that under a very thin veneer there flourishes prejudice against Jews. Among MPs, academics, and hordes and on the net.

Willy Silberstein
Chairman of the Swedish Committee Against Anti-Semitism

33 comments:

kritisk_borger said...

What’s the difference between anti-Semitism and Islamophobia?

Aren’t both terms meant to stifle and deflect any criticism directed at Muslims and Jews, just like the term racist is meant to stifle any opposition to the current immigration trends in the west?

And what’s the difference between a Muslim accusing someone of Islamophobia for pointing out that a large inflow of Muslims into the population are bad for the western world, and a Jew accusing someone of anti-Semitism for simply criticizing or blaming special Jewish interest groups for working to facilitate Muslim and third world immigration to the western world?

And why is wrong for people to harbour ill thoughts towards Jews, but completely acceptable to harbour ill thoughts towards Muslims? If the majority of the Jews in the western world are liberals who supports and actively work to change the demographic make-up of Europe and America and who actively work to introduce new anti-discrimination laws aren’t they then just as dangerous to the west as the Muslim immigrants who insist that we change our ways to facilitate their needs? And if this is the case why should we then be p...yfooting around that particular issue?

Why is it ok for Jewish special interest groups to ‘destroy’ our societies, but not ok for special Muslim interest groups to do so?

There’s also a lot of talk about third world immigrants not assimilating and joining the mainstream community in the west, but the fact is that both Muslims and Jews to a certain degree resists this assimilation and prefer to be recognised first as a Jew/Muslim and then secondly as a citizen of their adopted country. By doing so they stand out and draw attention to themselves, and as we all know anything that is different will be the target of potential discrimination and scepticism.

Another thing worth pointing out is that ‘anti-Semitism’ (for lack of a better word) and a change in current immigration policies will most likely go hand in hand in Europe, as this change will go against the interests of liberal Jewish special interest groups who actively work to open up the borders to immigrants and refugees in Europe. This change will no doubt be described as or be explained as having ‘anti-Semitic’ overtones.

This has also by the way been pointed out by other conservative blogs on previous occasions.

K'thardin said...

Oh look. A moral relativist. Not seen one of them in awhile.

Tell you what, Kritisk Borger, I will give your point of view the attention it so richly deserves when the Jewish acts of terrorism and mass slaughter of the innocents reach the same number as that little ticker further down the page that says, 'Islamic Terrorists Have Carried Out More Than...' well, you can read the rest for yourself.

Until then your amateurish attempts at drawing a moral equivalence between some nonexistent Zionist secret totalitarian conspiracy to rule the world (COBRA!...yes, I'm a geek) and the actions of Islam whose members come out and say pretty much that, 'Yeah, we're going to rule your kuffar a$$, and all the world' will only draw me and those like me to continue to point out the obvious fallacy's of your rhetoric.

While we're on the subject, I'll restate my new favorite questions. Man, that David Horowitz came up with a fun one. You wouldn't believe the response I've gotten with it...actually you probably would.

Do you personally condemn Hammas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations? Failing that simple yes/no question; the leader of Hammas once said he wished for all the Jews to come back to Israel so he didn't have to hunt them down and kill them world wide: FOR OR AGAINST IT?

I'm very curious as to your response.

kritisk_borger said...

Ohh what cute little rant and you’ve even managed to completely ignore the main point of my post.

As I’m neither a Jew nor a Muslim, the Israel/Palestinian conflict interests me just slightly more than the Tibet/Chinese situation, which by the way doesn’t interest me at all.

However I’m a westerner and I do care a lot more about what happens to the west. Yes, it’s bad that the west has to deal with a rising number of Islamic militants and third world immigrants. But a lot of those have managed to come to the west courtesy of some very liberal special Jewish interest groups with a multicultural agenda doing their lobbying.

So yes, the question I raised in my post is very timely indeed.

rebelliousvanilla said...

ha, I usually don't side with kritisk on things, but on this one he is FLAWLESSLY SPOT ON! That saying with Muslims being skinless people in a sand paper world characterizes the Jews well too.

And yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, but that's beyond the point. I already said that the Jews ethnically cleansing their own country wouldn't bother me that much. Still, a return to sanity in the West would pretty much harm Jewish interests too, which is 'antisemitic'. Racist, antisemite and islamophobic are all words with no meaning anymore.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Oh, and another thing, kritisk on this one is consistent, you are the relativist. He is FOR his own people AGAINST any people that isn't his own and due to their own interests does harm to Europe.

Who is a relativist is you, since it's relative based on if you like a certain group or dislike the other.

Paardestaart said...

What in god's name are 'jewish interests' Vanilla?

And how is critical Borger standing up for his/our own people by attributing 'special interests' to jews? How are jews acting against 'our interests', when the majority of our people act against our own interest? Do not most young educated people think with their leftlobe nowadays, even if they think themselves conservatives?!

It is true, many jews vote left, and against the interests of the western world - but then so do most westerners. Why?
Because they, like everybody else have been brainwashed with marxist hogwash. They have been taught that the poor and the downtrodden of this world are poor & downtrodden because the others, i.e. western capitalists, are rich and powerful.
They have been taught that the poor are being exploited, that redistribution by the state will put an end to this injustice, and they have been taught that israel is the capitalist oppressor of an peaceful indiginous arabic people.., although at the same time the jews are to blame for communism..

I ask you: what does being jewish have to do with anything? The jews are just as much against their own interests as most westerners are, or even more - so I do not understand why you have to single them out - again! Like our and their enemies do!

Except maybe it’s because you are eastern-european..In eastern-europe the jews are even less liked than in the States or western-europe which, since the arabs managed a UN-decision which equals zionism to racism can finally and shamelessly be anti-semitic again and 'criticize' Israel. Oh, and pro-islamic of course

For the muslims nowadays are the niggers of the world, as you know - the jews can go screw again, not so long after they were almost extinguished. It is incredible that people buy this anti-semitic, evil, paranoid drivel of jews being racist oppressors, guilty of bringing communism in the world, while at the same time they are seen as sinister puppetteers who secretly move and shake our world, in their special-interst groups; the same Stürmer-filth that the nazi's spread. I can't believe that only sixty years after a war which nearly finished them the jews are accused for their own murder, and of harbouring special interests!

The 'critical citizen' from Sweden you so inexplicably defend is a typical result of a bad education and leftist brainwash: he does not have the mental equipment, nor the discriminatory powers to tell which is which.

You do. What's wrong with you?

Rollory said...

A noticeable majority of the Bolshevik leadership was Jewish, and remained so until well into Stalin's reign. This is a fact. How one interprets it can vary.

The problem is not that they have special interests. The problem is that they are hypocrites about it. Liberal powerful Jews want to make sure European white Christians are never again in a position to to try to exterminate Jews; thus the constant harping on ant-semitism - they are very very watchful for it. The most obvious method of preventing a white majority population transmutating into nazis is to make sure there is no white majority. Minorities have rights that must be respected (so nobody can oppress Jews), freedom to immigrate to a country (so nobody can try to restrict Jewish freedom of movement), and so on and so forth. It is all completely logical. It is also short-sighted. The individuals advocating these policies advocate them with the claim that they are good for the nation as a whole, when in many cases they are instituted specifically to prevent the Jewish population ever again being in a position to be victimized by the white Christian majority. That's the lie that is causing the trouble.

If they just came out and said, "Jews were better integrated in Germany than anywhere else, and look what happened; we just don't trust you", the cards would be on the table and everything would be much clearer. But that requires admitting that there is "you" and "us", and that also is something they don't want to admit. Maybe not even to themselves. Also such an admission might result in the majority populations saying, "So you want us to utterly remake our countries to suit your sense of security? No, we won't" and then the Jews would be face to face with their own helplessness and dependence on the goodwill of the majority.

Said goodwill has been essentially automatic throughout the memory of most people now alive; it is only evaporating as a result of the actions some Jews take because they can't believe in it. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Also tragedy, in the true sense of the term.

There's nothing wrong with RV, or Kritisk.

Rollory said...

Gah I wish blogspot allowed editing. Under "freedom to immigrate to a country", I meant to also have: this also creates multiple other minorities, diluting any majority population and making the Jewish minority less conspicuous.

Rollory said...

Actually, a few other points:

"It is true, many jews vote left, and against the interests of the western world - but then so do most westerners. Why?
Because they, like everybody else have been brainwashed with marxist hogwash. "

"The jews are just as much against their own interests as most westerners are, or even more"

Yes. This is true. Most Jewish people are victims of the "official Jews" just as much as the rest of us. They're not the problem and never have been. THe problem is the ones with a messiah complex who think they can heal the world and they're darn well going to do it in spite of anybody who is too beetle-browed to go along. You find non-Jews in that group too; the exact strength of the correlation with being Jewish and with being a liberal bent on destroying the world while claiming you're saving it isn't clear, but I do think it exists. Pretending there can not possibly be any connection and it is just evil to think about it does no one any favors.

Ram said...

"So what is the difference then? Aren’t both terms meant to stifle and deflect any criticism?"


Good God no. The term "islamophobia" is meant to obscure the legitimate fear of what Islam seriously mandates toward non-muslims - hatred, indignity, violence, and conquest - simply stated, grievously evil things. And there is no actual "Islam-phobia," to my knowledge.

Antisemitism is a term for the unique phenomenon of boundless blamefare hate and demonization of unqiue depth and scope, sometimes acted on upon a tiny group, Jews. On its account, Jews live in fear. Expressions of hatred and blamefare inspire fear that it might mushroom and become more mainstream.

Let's try exposing you and yours to that threat, Kritisk, and see if you find it objectionable. And then dismiss your (understandable) objections as a ploy a la "islamophobia." See how you like that.

As for Jews and multiculturalism:
1. I see no sign of that in the Swedish MP's statements. It's more likely just a combo of popular enthusiasm for Islamic/lefty destruction of Israel and fear of her Muslim neighbors who are touchy.
2. I believe all minorities - including Jews - have long felt reassured by the meme of the "rainbow" of tolerance of differences. And so multiculturalism is supported by pretty much all minorities, but more strongly by those who feel more potential for insecurity and danger. I don't believe it ever occurred to any minority that the majority could ever be threatened by expressions that meme. The majority seems perfectly permanently secure to minorities, who can't imagine that any harm could result from extolling tolerance. The "too much of a good thing" pattern of error is common in life.

And I think most would oppose it, if they understood it. On encountering the idea - after overcoming its considerable counter-intuitiveness - I oppose it (and I'm Jewish and know well the minority view I described). A thing with good in it has been overextended to where it's harmful. Many people don't easily look at things in a new way, though, and strong emotions (worry of feeling threatened) make that harder still, it makes the mind shut down.

kritisk_borger said...

I’ll give a few examples of what I mean when I say Jewish special interest groups contributing to an increased immigration to Europe and America. I’ve taken this information from a Norwegian post I wrote about 5 years ago dealing with this particular issue.

These facts can easily be verified by doing some research online.

* The NAACP (national advancement for coloured people) was started with the backing of Jews.

* The American Jewish Committee worked tirelessly and was instrumental in creating the UN’s Human Rights Charter. They also managed through extensive lobbying to create the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

* The American Jewish Committee is also a strong supporter of allowing family reunifications for immigrants residing in the US and sees these family reunifications as a positive thing for the US.

* CEJI (centre europeen juif’d information) is a Jewish special interest organization consisting of prominent Jewish individuals and business leaders from all over Europe. In 1997 during the European Year against Racism, the EU decided to introduce article 13 to the Amsterdam treaty. This article gave the EU greater powers to combat racism and discrimination within the membership countries. In the 10 years leading up to this event the CEJI had used extensive lobbying to convince the EU to do so.

* CEJI has also toned down their support for Israel as this makes it more difficult for them to get approval for their anti-discrimination views in the EU.

* CEJI was also tasked to restructure ENAR (European Network Against Racism) in 2001. One of ENAR main focuses in addition to combat racism and discrimination in Europe is to ensure that immigrants in Europe are given the same rights as native Europeans within the EU area.

* CEJI also work closely with the ADL (anti defamation league) and the Jewish world congress. These two organizations support and work actively to strengthen multiculturalism. The ADL has also lobbied the US government and the EU to allow Turkey to join the EU.

Today’s immigration policies, at least in Europe rely heavily on EU and UN human rights legislation, and some big Jewish special interest organization have been instrumental in implementing these policies, so I guess it’s fair to say that these organizations have worked tirelessly to open up our borders. They have also been instrumental in introducing hate speech laws which have greatly curtailed our freedom of speech.

Of course non-Jewish organization and non-Jews have also been heavily involved in this work, and it doesn’t mean that every single Jew is supporting their work, but it does make you wonder why the Jews as a people are being singled out as a people who should be given preferential treatment and who should never be criticized, and whenever such criticism is directed at them it is somehow anti-Semitic.

laine said...

It is easy to determine what is antisemitism. It is criticizing Jews for something for which one doesn't criticize anyone else. Examples of leftist antisemitism abound:

Israel alone must return territory won in a defensive war to the aggressors.

Ten baton wielding activists killed by Israeli soldiers defending themselves is a "massacre" but half a million civilians including women and children slaughtered in Darfur by Muslim militias at the behest of a Muslim government is crickets chirping.

Israeli Jews building housing is worse than Palestinians launching rockets at civilians etc.

On the other hand, criticizing Jews for behavior that one would criticize in any other group is NOT antisemitism. The holocaust cannot be used as a permanent get out of criticism card for Jews as other peoples have had their holocausts and no such card is issued to them. Jews have done things both before and since their holocaust that deserve criticism. They are not angelic. Until recently, they have managed to malign and shut up all critics with the antisemitism and Holocaust card, just as blacks and their supporters use the racist and slavery card.

Jews are disproportionately represented in the Democrat party, as voters and financial supporters, in all leftist parties actually just as they were among the Bolsheviks. They were very influential in opening up the gates of the West to multicultural (non-white, non-Christian immigration) because it made them feel safer than in a monolithic Christian culture i.e. even those countries who sacrificed millions of lives to defeat the Nazis were treated like so many incipient Germanies that had to be weakened. Kritisk is absolutely right in this and as he would criticize any other group who tried to do this, he is not antisemitic but defends his own "tribe" and society that treated Jews decently. Too many Jews hold a double standard there, behaving very tribally themselves but denying that right to Christians, tarring them all with Germany's sins.

Jews are over-represented in all the leftist agitators like the ACLU which was founded by communists and wages constant lawfare against Christianity trying to squeeze it out of the public square. In Canada and elsewhere, they are founding members of misnamed Human Rights government funded groups where again Christians are the main scapegoats, hauled in for criticizing gay promoting policies in schools etc. Ezra Levant, a rare politically conservative Jew has done much to uncover this scam when a Muslim imam tried to use the same machinery to impoverish Levant for publishing the Mohammed cartoons. What Levant calls "the official Jews" argue vociferously for retaining the restraints they have succeeded in placing on Canadians' free speech. A poor thanks indeed to the Canadian people whose interests are being sacrificed to assuage Jewish anxieties.

laine said...

I would also like to mention a complicating factor that gets too little recognition. Israel is in existential danger because Jews are divided, with the majority of diaspora Jews lined up on the Left and its anti-Israel policies.

It is simply shocking that the backward Palestinians and their amateurish Pallywood efforts have succeeded in trumping any PR for Israel. The only reason it's possible is because diaspora Jews with the means to shape public opinion (academia and the media-entertainment complex) are not just standing aside but are actively promoting the Arab/Muslim fiction of Palestinians as being victimized by Israeli Jews.

They have become so blatant in this support, even adopting the blackest of terms "apartheid state" and "nazi-like" that people like Helen Thomas mistakenly thought they could join in. Now she's been correctly pilloried, but for behavior that is common among the Jewish intelligentsia leading the pillory committee. Unlike many of them, she at least didn't call Israeli Jews Nazis.

Zenster said...

rebelliousvanilla: That saying with Muslims being skinless people in a sand paper world characterizes the Jews well too.

While I should be pleased that my description of Muslims is being used, the comparison that you draw is uncharacteristically off base.

Yes, Jews can be a bit thin skinned but that is more than a little understandable after being hunted down for centuries and nearly exterminated in the process.

Muslims, on the other hand, have for many centuries been exterminating Jews and everyone else.

Furthermore, Jews do not fly fully loaded passenger jet airliners into occupied skyscrapers nor do they riot, murder and whine like a million colicky little babies over some cartoons; And if you think the Mohammad cartoons were offensive then I'd enjoy hearing what you think of those published in Iran's 2006 Holocaust Cartoon contest.

Muslims are, indeed, skinless people in a sandpaper world, let there be no doubt about that. As to Jews, Paardestaart has addressed that rather well.

One major issues that continually forces me to recalibrate my support for Israel is how they sell advanced military technology to both America's and their own enemies alike. How stupid do you have to be to do that?

More cartoon links

Dogdylan said...
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laine said...

Zenster, "recalibrate my support for Israel ...sell advanced military technology to both America's and their own enemies alike. How stupid do you have to be to do that?"

Jews whether in Israel or the diaspora act in what they perceive to be their own interests (and sometimes they misjudge and it bites them in the a**). That's natural. What isn't natural is that Christians have been sold the illusion that their interests and those of Jews always coincide. It's some form of universal psychological penance for the Holocaust, even if our fathers were on the anti-Nazi side.

Well, truth be told our interests often diverge, most strongly on the official multiculturalism that is undermining only Euro-Christian founded countries. (No such demands are made on Japan, China, India etc.) Everyone else gets to keep their country for themselves, including the Jews in Israel. Only white Christians must be diluted to the point of impotence in their homelands. In fact, whites will be roaming the earth homeless at some future date).

Ironically, while Israel moved from socialism with kibbutzes toward grand economic success with capitalism, diaspora leftist Jews strain might and main to turn their capitalist societies toward failed socialism. The explanation for this is elusive, but one proffered by non-liberal Jews is that liberal Jews have corrupted the meaning of "tikkun olam" to a feel-good therapy for themselves by promoting any underdog labeled fashionable by their fellow leftists, even when it's rabid and snapping at fellow Jews as in the case of Palestinians.

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Paardestaart said...

"Most Jewish people are victims of the "official Jews" just as much as the rest of us"

But there are no offical jews, and you should not say things like that - it is racist! It doesn’t matter whether leftists are jews or hottentots, because among jews ànd among leftists you'll find every creed and every colour of the rainbow, just as there are among us!
It is because jews are prominent in society, and prominents unfortunately stand a very good chance of having been turned into leftards - against theri own interest, against all reason, contrary to reality and impervious to the facts.
It is a fatal thing, and it has to do with the deliberate marxist infiltration of our educational system - if you've studied a liberal arts subject you'll have been douzed with marxist opinion.

Dogdylan, as you hopefully understand by now (Dogdylan??!): nobody is saying “that “Jews” are innocent of multiculturalism” No sane person would say something that foolish; jews are not a monolith; they are individuals, just like the rest of us. Only people who indentity themselves as an ideological unity may with any justification be adressed as a group: so f.i. could a country with right and reason stricture communists, or nazi’s or muslims - because they have chosen a belief system as identifying trait.

Paardestaart said...

O Dogdylan, with regard to your "one Jew, who has been a critic of multiculturalism": there are many more of course, but I'll give you the name of a very articulate and well spoken one, and the link to one of his blogs: he's David Horowitz. He spends his life writing and lecturing about his communist upbringing and his life among the new left activists in the sixties and seventies, denouncing the creed he now feels is on the verge of destroying America and the west. I very much recommend his autobiography Radical Son - it may clear your thinking about jews and multiculturalism. It's also very wel written, so there :-)

laine said...

When you name David Horowitz, you obscure the fact that he is by no means representative of mainstream Jewry and in fact is sneered at by them, especially academe. Among other projects he is conducting a one man campaign against the leftist professoriate's (many being Jewish) penchant for indoctrinating their students instead of teaching them critical thinking, making the classroom actively hostile to any conservative and marking down their work for not agreeing with leftist cant.

I agree he's a near heroic figure but the point is that there are many more Jews lined up against him than support his work. He is the exception, not the rule.

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rebelliousvanilla said...

Paardestaart, like any group of other people residing in the space of another group, that group acts in its own interests. And the Jews are leftists for way more than Europeans. Heck, it goes to the mid of the 19th century and they devised the conceptual framework of our suicidal nature, even if it's our fault for listening to them. And yes, Hamas is a terrorist group that should be obliterated from the face of the Earth. I'm actually very Zionist. And by the way, 80% of the Jews vote left. I hardly think that Europeans or Americans do that.

Zenster, give me a break with being hunted down for centuries. Your point is like saying I should hate the Jews for their communism and Bolshevism and how they killed 100 million people or more with their pet ideology in the 20th century. I should just about start an anti-gentile smear, like theirs. And I should hate Russia, Austria, Hungary, Poland and the Ottomans/Turks forever, since well, they were at war with my country and so on. I don't start screaming smears each time I see a Polish person say something I don't like. I also agree with you about us helping both sides in the Israel issue. I don't get why we don't support Israel alone.

And kritisk in this case makes a very sane point. I'm amused that you people don't see it. I have no problems with Jewish individuals, I have a problem with them being granted a separate identity in different countries. As someone in the past said Jews should be granted everything as individuals and denied everything as a group.

Oh, judging by my country, Jews are even more skinless than the Muslims. I never heard of Muslims cry and complain, I heard a lot of Jews do. I'm glad that we are sane and don't care about the feelings of neither group though. I don't get this fetishism with other groups though. Jews are my people in the same way that Somalis are. And by the way, I don't blame Jews for all the world affairs and anybody who reads Mangan's blog knows it.

Dogdylan, you don't have to rationalize it. Any person that puts the interests of another group in front of his own is a fool.

NorseAlchemist said...

It must be said that there are many interesting points and I doubt anyone here is entirely right or wrong.

As a person who walks Asatru, I am willing to admit that I have benefited from "multiculturalism" weakening the Tyrannical hold of Christianity almost as much as I have suffered for its constant attacks against peoples of European decent. In some ways it is the ultimate irony, that the very thing that destroys the West is the same thing that permits me to rediscover and live the original Western way. However, I feel that the best way for us to continue is to follow the path of the founding fathers: i.e. the path of Freedom, rather than Tolerance. Tolerance means that the bigger power lets the lesser do as it pleases, rather than all powers living in the freedom to do as they please so long as it doesn't impose upon the rights of another.

That said, I do agree that there are interests special to the Jews. To be honest, it is so for all people and groups and this makes them no more good or evil than any other. People here have made very good arguments as to why some Jews act the way they do. It is true that the religion of the Jews does lend itself to taking the Liberal side of things. However, one must remember the history of the Jews at the hands of both Christians and Muslims, and I personally recognize that it is almost as terrible as what happened to followers of Pagan/Heathen religions at the hands of Monotheists. I'm not saying they were to blame or were blameless.

If it is true that some or most of the liberal Jews are working to destroy the so called "Christian West" (an idea I find laughable since Christianity is an Eastern Religion) I would surmise that they're desire to destroy Christianity is the same reason Islam and Christianity have historically tried to destroy all non-believers: the problem with having One God, who has One Chosen People, each who has The One Correct Way, is that any other religions are a threat to their claims of religious supremacy. And, be they Jews, Christians, or Muslims, those monotheistic, Abrahamic religions have always claimed divine supremacy. If the Jews seek to destroy the West, it is because it threatens the belief/concept that they are the Chosen People of the One God. The fact that they've not had the numbers to really do anything about it matters little. The Bible has many stories of the Jews/Original Israelite people commuting genocide against Polytheistic nations.

But that is just my personal opinion. I've studied a fair bit of history, and I've seen the patterns taken by those who worship the One God. The Jews, like every other race, wishes to survive and thrive and as a whole will attempt to preserve its life and power, even if it means sacrificing the well being of someone else. Doesn't make them any better or worse than the rest of us, however much they (like every other group) feels like they are superior.

I leave these words as food for thought.

Paardestaart said...

Vanilla said "people residing in the space of another group act in their own interests"

As a group?But why should they? To which group do you belong?? Which interests do you have which would be against mine, for instance?

Why would jewish interests among other people be any different than those of anybody else, except for unimportant details like maybe wanting different houses of worship, or special foodstuffs they catered for themselves??

Normally most immigrants silently integrated in American society, and being well integrated they had no reason or motive to hold on to their own group; no more than others, that is - not in ways that were contrary to indiginous interests..
The Jews from German-speaking lands f.i. who came to the US at the start of the 20th cy had totally different traits - being well-educated, genteel and usually well off than later immigrants, who predominantly came from Russia and eastern Europe, who were poor, socialist and very suspicious of their own hoi polloi.

So how would they act as a group?

It is true: Jews lean inexplicably and overwhelmingly to the left, possibly because of being underdogs, and also because of the concept of Tikun Olam - 'the healing the world' - but then almost all of the western white establishment leans left, as do third worldlings ànd almost everyone who feels a misfit.
But how did jewish leftism ever work in their interest? And how did it work against ours?

You say 'they devised the conceptual framework of our suicidal nature' - which of course was already in place because of christanity - but then I have to ask you again: how did they do that as jews?? How did it serve their jewishness, or their special interests?

Marx certainly did not write for jews, he wrote for all the world - more's the pity, and besides: he despised his own group.
And Stalin and Lenin, Gramsci and Mao spread the word ànd the works, and had they any special regards for jewish interests, other than suspicion and contempt?

And you Borger - how did 'Jews act against gentiles in a hostile way, with no consideration for their/our well-being"???

Please - just give me one example??

rebelliousvanilla said...

Paardestaart, besides blowing themselves up, Jews are no different than Muslims or Africans. It's obvious that I will waste my time trying to explain it to you though since you are too invested in how things are right now.

And the Jews acted against gentiles in a hostile way with no consideration for their well being in a lot of cases. Opening the gates of the Spanish cities when the Moors invaded, Bolshevism, Frankfurt school, all the Jewish organizations and multiculturalism. Jews are as invested into MC as Muslims, actually. I mean, their special courts would and should go away with the Sharia ones.

And Hitler didn't really care about Germans either. I mean, he sent them to their death without care. Your point about Marx is exactly which?

Oh, and yes, the interests of Jews are no different than the interests of Muslims, Africans or whatever living in let's say Sweden. They are against the interests of Swedes though. Heck, if I move to Sweden, unless I fully identify with being Swedish, with no other qualified(consider myself ethnic Swedish and be culturally Swedish), I will work against the interests of Swedes more often than not. It's not really about the Jews being different, I don't treat them as such. From what I saw, it's you who make a special case for them.

Paardestaart said...

My point about Marx was of course that he, despising his own people, can not have been very keen on furthering specific jewish interests; what he advocated went for everyone, not especially for jews, unfortunately

And you're darn right Vanilla - I do make a special case for jews. They are a great, couragious and brilliant people and I see no harm in them. No more than in everybody else that is, unless of course they are communists, fascists, or muslims converts, in which case the problem lies in their political programme. Totalitarians are their programme before they are human beings, and to those you can only relate if you submit to the same program.

I think that every country kicking out it's jews stands to lose a great deal - a fact that is demonstrated pretty tellingly if you ask me, when you compare Israeli society with that in Africa or Islamia...
Amazing, that you do not see the difference.

And why should the special courts of jews go, because sharia courts can not be tolerated?
There is - again - a big difference, you know!
For unlike muslims or other totalitarians: every jew can leave his religious community without fear for his life or his reputation, and furthermore jews don't proselytize and they do not reject the state, nor do they try to supplant it - so what's it to us? They harm no one, and they are not overriding secular, real law :-)

Shariacourts however very much do, which of course you know.
Or maybe you don't?
Otherwise why would you say there is no distinction between jews, or muslims & africans..?

Then there is the matter with the gates: I suppose they let in the muslim armies because they hoped the moors would treat them better than the spaniards had, which they didn’t, of course..although I’ve never heard the story
But if it’s true: would the jews have welcomed the moors if the catholico’s had not persecuted them for being jews and ‘christkillers’?

rebelliousvanilla said...

Paardestart, so you see, you don't mind multiculturalism per say, you just mind Muslims. This was the point I was getting to. You must make your decision for yourself since you can't have your cake and eat it too. You either destroy multiculturalism or not and this includes the Jewish courts, for example.

Sharia courts don't override the real law. They act as more or less outcourt settling and have the same status as the Jewish ones.

I also didn't say there is no distinction in between Jews, Muslims and Africans, I just said that neither of them is my people and neither is exempt from criticism. Well, except the Jews in your case.

The Germans are a great, courageous(well, were, now they're pretty much women with penises) and brilliant people, yet they get the blame for Hitler. I don't get why the Jews wouldn't get the blame for Marx, Lenin or Trotsky. And no, I wouldn't have that much to lose if Europe didn't have any Jews. The scientific revolution wasn't done by Jews and we were fairly well before their emancipation.

Since you like making excuses for the Jews. Why were they in Spain? Would have they been discriminated against in Spain if they would have stayed in their home place? And Jews act in the same way they did in Spain, right now. I don't see why I wouldn't blame them for it.

Zenster said...

Paardestaart: I think that every country kicking out it's jews stands to lose a great deal - a fact that is demonstrated pretty tellingly if you ask me, when you compare Israeli society with that in Africa or Islamia...

This is reminiscent of a quote by Isaac Asimov: (from memory)

Kill all the politicians and everybody is happy.
Kill all the engineers and everybody dies.


This applies to the Jews as well.

Kick out all the Jews and lose WWII.
Kick out all of the Muslims and narrowly survive jihad.

Paardestaart said...

Vanilla,I heartily detest multiculturalism, because it is a kitschy ideology being used as a means of demolishing western culture; and I hate the fact that the influx of third-worlders hasn't been an organic event, but one which was orchestrated to destroy us.

But you're right - I have no beef with immigration per se; if the immigrants' background is more or less compatible with western society, if they are planning to make a reasonable succes of their life and if they do not keep a hidden agenda to wage war against us, that is.
Jewish immigrants have been loyal citizens: they brought us no grief, on the contrary, and I can't really hold them responsible for leaning left, because almost everybody does, nowadays.
And no - I don't believe they are responsible for the Frankfurther Schule, and I do not see how the tenets evolving from it furthered 'jewish interests' - to the contrary.

In case of muslim-immigration we could have known; they even warned us in the UN..: "One day millions of men will leave the south to go to the northern hemisphere. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory."
Well, nobody knew of course - 'cause nobody told us, and we had ahabit of trusting our rulers; something we won't do again for a long time

Blaming 'the jews' for communism surely isn't the same thing as holding the nazi state responsible for an idiot war and millions of dead - I'm sure you understand that.

I think I understand what you mean, but I don't understand how you can mean it.

Dogdylan said...
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