Wednesday, July 22, 2009

The Revolutionary Vanguard

The IslaminternSeveral years ago I wrote about the Islamist Manifesto — the blueprint for a worldwide Islamic revolution as laid out by the radical international group Hizb ut-Tahrir (“The Party of Liberation”).

If you examine their proclamations and manifestos, you’ll notice that Islamic extremists have adopted large chunks of communist rhetoric and methodology. Marxist-Leninist thought can be adapted very easily to the purposes of the Great Jihad, with just a few substitutions in the core jargon to make it fit.

The modus operandi for both groups is the same: the suppression of all dissent, the rewriting of history to accord with the exigencies of ideology, an all-encompassing explanation for all events that occur, a chiliastic promise of a glorious future for everyone who abides by the doctrine, and the use of extreme violence to attain ideological ends. Exchange the Communist Manifesto for the Koran, and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat for the Worldwide Caliphate, and you’re in business.

When I posted about Hizb ut-Tahrir back then, I quoted from one of their websites (which has since been taken down). Here are some excerpts from the party manifesto:

The work of Hizb ut-Tahrir is to carry the Islamic da’wah in order to change the situation of the corrupt society so that it is transformed into an Islamic society. It aims to do this by firstly changing the society’s existing thoughts to Islamic thoughts so that such thoughts become the public opinion among the people, who are then driven to implement and act upon them. Secondly the Party works to change the emotions in the society until they become Islamic emotions that accept only that which pleases Allah (swt) and rebel against and detest anything which angers Allah (swt). Finally, the Party works to change the relationships in the society until they become Islamic relationships which proceed in accordance with the laws and solutions of Islam. These actions which the Party performs are political actions, since they relate to the affairs of the people in accordance with the Shari’ah rules and solutions, and politics in Islam is looking after the affairs of the people, either in opinion or in execution or both, according to the laws and solutions of Islam.

What is manifested in these political actions is culturing the Ummah with the Islamic culture in order to melt her with Islam and to cleanse her of the corrupt creeds, false thoughts and erroneous concepts including the influence of Kufr thoughts and opinions.

[…]

[Hizb ut-Tahrir’s] aim is to resume the Islamic way of life and to convey the Islamic da’wah to the world. This objective means bringing the Muslims back to living an Islamic way of life in Dar al-Islam and in an Islamic society such that all of life’s affairs in society are administered according to the Shari’ah rules, and the viewpoint in it is the halal and the haram under the shade of the Islamic State, which is the Khilafah State. That state is the one in which Muslims appoint a Khaleefah and give him the bay’ah to listen and obey on condition that he rules according to the Book of Allah (swt) and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and on condition that he conveys Islam as a message to the world through da’wah and jihad.

The Party, as well, aims at the correct revival of the Ummah through enlightened thought. It also strives to bring her back to her previous might and glory such that she wrests the reins of initiative away from other states and nations, and returns to her rightful place as the first state in the world, as she was in the past, when she governs the world according to the laws of Islam.

It also aims to bring back the Islamic guidance for mankind and to lead the Ummah into a struggle with Kufr, its systems and its thoughts so that Islam encapsulates the world.

As you can see from the above, Hizb ut-Tahrir is a dangerous and subversive organization. Despite its disclaimer of non-violence, it’s obvious that the party’s stated aim is to overthrow all existing secular governments and replace them with a single Islamic state. It’s no wonder that HuT is banned not only in major Islamic countries, but in many Western nations as well. Great Britain and the United States are exceptions.

Hizb ut-Tahrir was back in the news a couple of weeks ago when the party announced a conference in Chicago on “The Fall of Capitalism and the Rise of Islam”. Later reports said that the event had been canceled, but it seems that it took place last weekend as scheduled, after being moved to a different venue.

If you relied on the MSM for your news of the Chicago conference, you wouldn’t know that there was anything special about Hizb ut-Tahrir. As Newsbusters reports, the media did their best to make HuT seem like any other religious or charitable organization, just like Presbyterians only wearing funny hats:
- - - - - - - - -
Little has been made about yesterday’s “The Fall of Capitalism and the Rise of Islam” conference that was held at the Hilton Hotel Grand Ballroom in Oak Lawn, IL. The conference was held by the group Hizb Ut Tahrir; a group that has been banned in Germany, Russia, Pakistan and several other Middle Eastern countries. Yet most mainstream media organizations in the United States didn’t even bother to mention the event.

Indeed. Although the story did appear in Chicago’s suburban Southtown Star, the paper’s sister publication, the Chicago Sun Times penned it as an “economic session” and homogenized the coverage as follows:

The estimated 800 attending the conference discussed issues related to the global capitalist economic system and Islamic alternatives to that system, said spokesman Mohammad Malkawi. Opinions about Hizb ut-Tahrir varied widely. Outside the hotel, protesters said the organization is simply another terrorist group. — Chicago Sun Times, Muslim group’s economic session draws opponents

So opinions “varied widely” and only the protesters thought the group had anything to do with terrorism. But the Investigative Project delves into the matter in a bit more detail:

Hizb ut-Tahrir: Shariah Takes Precedence Over U.S. Constitution

Imam Promises to Fight “Until Islam Becomes Victorious or We Die in the Attempt”

Oak Lawn, Illinois — Hizb ut-Tahrir (HT), the international movement to re-establish an international Islamic state ­ or Caliphate — kicked off a new campaign to win American recruits Sunday afternoon in this Chicago suburb. Nearly 300 people packed the Grand Ballroom of the Hilton Hotel for its Khalifah Conference on “The Fall of Capitalism and the Rise of Islam” to listen to HT ideologues blame capitalism for World War I and World War II; the U.S. subprime mortgage meltdown; the current violence in Iraq and Afghanistan; world poverty and malnutrition and inner-city drug use.

Like the Left, Islam is out to destroy capitalism, but for slightly different reasons:

A speaker identified as Abu Atallah even blamed capitalism for the late singer Michael Jackson’s decision “to shed his black skin.”

Hizb ut-Tahrir aims to restore the Caliphate that existed during the Ottoman Empire in Turkey. Turkish leader Kemal Ataturk abolished it in 1924 in an effort to create a secular, Europeanized state.

It’s interesting that gender-related conflicts between the sponsors of the conference and their useful-idiot allies on the Left have come out into the open:

In the ballroom where the conference took place, men and women were largely segregated, with men in the front and women in the back. This became a significant point of contention between HT supporters and several members of the audience who objected to this arrangement. At one point, an unidentified Hizb ut-Tahrir speaker became flustered over this line of questioning.

“Men and women,” he blurted out, must be kept separate “to prevent people from behaving like animals.”

So there you have it: men and women must remain apart so that the “catmeat” won’t drive good Muslim men insane with lust and cause them to sin.

The conference was sometimes poorly organized. There was no list of speakers, forcing reporters to sometimes guess at the spelling of speakers’ names. But HT certainly appeared to be serious about working for the larger goals of the conference: abolishing capitalism and imposing Caliphate rule over the world.

According to Hizb ut-Tahrir, the world’s social and economic problems will not be fixed until the world is governed by Shariah and the government controls all major industries. Lenders would no longer be able to charge interest, which one speaker decried as a “poisonous concept.” Charity, or zakat, was advertised as the way to alleviate “economic inequality.”

Is Barack Hussein Obama the solution for these problems? Hardly:

“Secular capitalism has made me devalue my skin” and “has kept my family in ghettos,” said one speaker, an African-American who went on to blame it for the fact that he smoked marijuana and his grandmother played the lottery. Capitalism, he added, is a form of economic “terrorism” and “causes us to be sent to mental hospitals.” Barack Obama’s presidency, he said, “is only a scheme or con” to trick people into thinking that things will get better under capitalism.

So not even the One is good enough: only the full Caliphate will do!

And there’s another resemblance between radical Islam and the communists. Remember back in the sixties, when you confronted a communist with the mass murders committed by Stalin? The stock answer was always: “Real communism has never been tried.”

It’s the same with Islam. Despotism in Saudi Arabia or Libya? Real Islam has never been tried!

But time and again on Sunday, Hizb ut-Tahrir officials seemed to be playing slippery rhetorical games of their own — particularly when it came to the behavior of despotic Muslim regimes and terrorists. When a few skeptical audience members pressed speakers over the fact that Islamic governments in Iran and Saudi Arabia are despotic, conference speakers claimed those weren’t “authentic” Muslim governments and that the CIA (and by implication, the capitalist U.S. government) was to blame for the problems in those countries. In an interview with WBBM-TV in Chicago, HT deputy spokesman Mohammad Malkawi refused to specifically condemn Al Qaida and the Taliban.

Zuhdi Jasser calls it right:

“Hizb ut-Tahrir preaches an ideology that calls for the destruction of the principles that America is founded on,” said Zuhdi Jasser, president of the American-Islamic Forum for Democracy. “While their words are protected by our First Amendment, their actions and movement must not be allowed to take hold. The silence of American Islamist organizations like [the Council on American-Islamic Relations] CAIR and [the Islamic Society of North America] ISNA in condemning the ideologies of Hizb ut-Tahrir and their agenda of insurgency in America speaks volumes to their own, albeit, more camouflaged Islamist agenda.”

HT’s efforts to rehabilitate its image won’t be helped by the menacing tone on display Sunday. One late-afternoon panelist suggested that modern industrial powers could fall to Muslims the way Mecca fell to Mohammed nearly 1,400 years ago…

The panelist is right. This is exactly what can happen if enough infidels don’t wake up from their snooze in front of the TV and realize what’s happening.

Large parts of the Western establishment — and these include the U.S. State Department, half the Pentagon, the E.U., and many other governments — are acting out the role of the Imperial German General Staff in 1917. They’ve already put Lenin into the sealed railway carriage and are sending him on his way to the Finland Station.

Like the Germans, they’re playing a devious and cynical game for short-term political objectives. They don’t care to contemplate the fact that Hizb ut-Tahrir and similar organizations have a wider perspective. Like Lenin, Islam takes the long view.

The world had to undergo 74 years of brutality, slaughter, and moral darkness before the German mistake of 1917 was undone. How long a twilight will we have to endure before the Islamintern is finally destroyed?


Hat tip: Paul Green.

23 comments:

Zenster said...

The modus operandi for both groups is the same: the suppression of all dissent, the rewriting of history to accord with the exigencies of ideology, an all-encompassing explanation for all events that occur, a chiliastic promise of a glorious future for everyone who abides by the doctrine, and the use of extreme violence to attain ideological ends.

Well alrighty then! Perhaps we should deal with Islam much as we did with Cold War Communists. Namely, use the threat of total nuclear annihilation to keep any overly aggressive tendencies in check.

[Hizb ut-Tahrir’s] aim is to resume the Islamic way of life and to convey the Islamic da’wah to the world. This objective means bringing the Muslims back to living an Islamic way of life in Dar al-Islam and in an Islamic society such that all of life’s affairs in society are administered according to the Shari’ah rules, and the viewpoint in it is the halal and the haram under the shade of the Islamic State, which is the Khilafah State. That state is the one in which Muslims appoint a Khaleefah and give him the bay’ah to listen and obey on condition that he rules according to the Book of Allah (swt) and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and on condition that he conveys Islam as a message to the world through da’wah and jihad.

Is it just me or have most sane people had their fill of this Islamic crap? As Robert Marchnoir noted over in "The Islamic Singularity" thread:

One of the most obnoxious things about Muslims is that they force you to talk and think extensively about Islam, even when they are only a "tiny minority of moderates" among Western countries.

Soon, without realising it, you eat Koran, read Koran, speak Koran, debate Koran from dawn to midnight.

Soon, you find yourself engulfed in backwardness, dragged down to Islam's level, and forget everything about beauty, goodness and your own civilisation. Which, obviously, is the aim of the game
.

Imam Promises to Fight “Until Islam Becomes Victorious or We Die in the Attempt”.

Again, I vote for the alternative to "Victorious".

The conference was sometimes poorly organized. There was no list of speakers, forcing reporters to sometimes guess at the spelling of speakers’ names.

I'm willing to guess that this is a new favorite Muslim past time. Make the kufr guess how many different ways there are to spell Mohammad. If forged passports are any indication, this certainly seems to be the case.

Lenders would no longer be able to charge interest, which one speaker decried as a “poisonous concept.”.

Especially if your major goal is to keep a nation in the stone age. Compare Spain to Holland for a glimpse of what happens when interest and dividends are forbidden.

Capitalism, he added, is a form of economic “terrorism” and “causes us to be sent to mental hospitals.”.

The usual cart-before-horse problem. Actually, Capitalism is what helps finance the mental hospitals that this monster raving loon belongs in.

When a few skeptical audience members pressed speakers over the fact that Islamic governments in Iran and Saudi Arabia are despotic, conference speakers claimed those weren’t “authentic” Muslim governments and that the CIA (and by implication, the capitalist U.S. government) was to blame for the problems in those countries.

Hokay, so what about that "Land of the Pure", Pakistan? Few more pure Islamic countries are to be found and no better example exists of what to expect from "pure" Islam than Pakistan.

How long a twilight will we have to endure before the Islamintern is finally destroyed?.

Quite possibly just for a few short minutes after some fed up Western president finally hits "The Big Red Button" because of yet one more Islamic terrorist atrocity.

Solkhar said...

Zenster, actually on blog sites like this the subject of the Qur'an (note correct spelling that represents phonetic pronunciation) that it is raised constantly because it is being discussed and attacked. Thus it is people like yourself that raise the profile and of course if a Muslim comes accross he/she will defend it.

So either stop discussing it or accept that the topic will be raised ....... that is more than logical.

As for the conference - for me it is a worthless activity and should be carefully watched by authorities which I am sure it will. Any such discussion about a world Caliphate means that they are extremists and by their nature do not support national interests and that for me questions their right to exist as an organization.

Funny that you mentioned nukes here, in a lot of your postings, on your blog and even as the summary to that blog.

As if a western president will use the one thing that probably will turn his/her country into enemy number one by the rest of the planet, do the one thing that no nation would actually ever consider, was not done even in the Cuban Missile Crisis (though close), was not done in Korea or Vietnam, Chechna but you think would do it for a religious ideological battle that only a minority like yourself thinks actually is a global threat ..... well your entitled to your opinion.

Robert Marchenoir said...

All right then, Zenster, I might even give a try to your pot-au-feu with pig's ear some day.

Solkhar, you say :

"On blog sites like this the subject of the Qur'an (note correct spelling that represents phonetic pronunciation) that it is raised constantly because it is being discussed and attacked. Thus it is people like yourself that raise the profile and of course if a Muslim comes accross he/she will defend it. So either stop discussing it or accept that the topic will be raised ....... that is more than logical."

More veiled threats, hey ?

Your chutzpah is breathtaking. Gates of Vienna exists because of the Muslim invasion of the West, and their global attempt to impose Islam upon it.

So, no, we are not willing to discuss the Koran day in, day out : what we want is that you Muslims stay in your countries where you belong, and keep your Koran to yourselves. Is that clear enough ?

Failing this, of course we will work to expose the pack of lies that you try to impose upon us, and the backward, violent, psychopathic drivel that the Koran is.

Muslims always seem offended when Westerners have the gall to defend themselves against their attacks. Prepare yourselves to be much, much more offended. You can't stop a bullet once it has been fired. You have pulled the trigger. Now you'll have to face the consequences.

All the people around me, actively discussing Islam and the Koran, did not give a hoot a few years ago. Nay, they barely knew that Islam existed. It registered on their radar like the existence of Inuits or something.

We are having this discussion because you imposed it on us, because you immigrated in droves in our countries, because you insisted on being served hallal food in public schools, because you took to insulting our women when they went around without a veil.

It is astonishing how a seemingly intelligent man like you can pretend to comment on a blog of a certain intellectual calibre like Gates of Vienna, and still hope to deceive readers with such a blatant inversion of responsibilites.

I maintain my judgement, Solkhar : not only you're not the moderate you pretend to be, you're an all-out djihadist. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was right when she looked you in the eye.

Note the preposterous "spelling correction" about the Koran you attempt to foist upon us once again, despite having been warned we don't care about your spelling da'wa.

That's so Muslim. It's the same as insisting on seemingly inocuous details : being served "carrots which have been properly slaughtered" at school (a genuine grievance from a "French" Muslim pupil), women-only days in swimming-pools, the veil, etc.

That's part of the tactic I described earlier : attempting to saturate the public debate with Islamic issues, whatever they are, whatever the outcome of the discussion.

Next thing you know, you're watching yourself, a Westerner, a Christian, discussing Islam all day long.

Then, Muslims (and Western traitors) can say : see, Islam is a natural thing in Europe, it's part of the landscape, Europe has Muslim roots, it has always been thus.

Then Sharia can be imposed. Without a bomb ever being set off. In a very "moderate" and "liberal" way.

Has Islam brainwashed you so thoroughly you're unable to understand that this trick won't wash ? That we see right through it ?

Solkhar said...

Robert M, I found your posting to be very funny indeed! Your constant presumptions that you know me, what actually is Muslim or Islam let alone the reality around you and the world not only stinks but reeks of school-yard agenda.

"what we want is that you Muslims stay in your countries where you belong, and keep your Koran to yourselves. Is that clear enough ?" So you wish me to go back to The Netherlands? So for you there is a distinct border on what is Christian land, Muslim land - do you have a home that Jews must only go to?

I just love how you shurked your way out of the point that the Qur'an is raised time and time again on blogs like GoV and thus it is the subject of the day if you like it or not. You do not have to read or post you know... oh, perhaps you do not. You even attempted to turn the subject into claiming my response was a threat.

"Muslims always seem offended when Westerners have the gall to defend themselves against their attacks", actually it is the other way around. You appear to love being in some boy's only playground were you can brag dirty little secrets and BS and get all upperty and defencive when it is actually noticed. Rather like a little boy being caught out cursing. Remember that it is you who says "the backward, violent, psychopathic drivel that the Koran is" and then expect a Muslim not to tell you that you are wrong?

"We are having this discussion because you imposed it on us, because you immigrated in droves in our countries, because you insisted on being served hallal food in public schools, because you took to insulting our women when they went around without a veil."

That certainly is an issue Robert, work on it, point out the errors on immigration laws that allowed extremists into your country and also why they are not welcome in the "real Muslim world". But what do you do, you attack the entire religion and then expect no feedback. That is striking coming from "a seemingly intelligent man like you".

Solkhar said...

....continued...

"I maintain my judgement, Solkhar : not only you're not the moderate you pretend to be, you're an all-out djihadist. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was right when she looked you in the eye."

Well I maintain that your language says that you hav a rather sick agenda that really is an embarassemnt to the great many millions of actually sane and good peoople in the west. That because in the end you are "caught out at the back of the shed" you have to go to the agenda based answer that if a Muslim disagrees with me then he must be a jihadist.

I stand by my anti-extrimst line each and every time but also do not forget sell-outs like that lady you mentioned, remember Robet that when I said what I did the bulk of the audience (non-Muslim) clappped and agreed and she had to stand their red-faced. It was in the press at the time and note she does not live in Holland because she backed herself into a corner with the locals, not the Muslims.

It is plain your words are not serious, I am not a native English speaker but I take to international standards over pronunciation because that is what intelligent people do, your claim that I do so for religious reasons does not sit - go to Oxford or MacQuarie dictionaries and check it out.

Sharia Law as you like to put, along with Eurabia and some global Caliphate is a joke, unatainable for countless reasons, like the fact that you admit that a few years back Muslims were unknown like the Unuit People goes to show that it is pushed, splattered over the internet and saturated by - western agenda based people with a personal issue or two.

Certainly there are anal-retentive extremists who want war, global Islam in their image and they are more than dangerous, they should be targetted and the efforts should be on them. They are considered fools and criminals in the real Muslim world and that for me says it all. The Muslim world has enough issues dealing with these low-lifes, trying to stimulate the rediculous and pathetic "do nothing" and the total lack of support from mainstream theocracy schools - not to mention their complicity - then to have to note how this extreme-right-wing agenda based minority deals with the issue. Muslims here say amongst themselves, they invite trouble, cannot deal with it and then allow bigots to gain power. My neighbour said that to me last week in our local café. He is right.

Robin Shadowes said...

"Funny that you mentioned nukes here, in a lot of your postings, on your blog and even as the summary to that blog."

Zenster has also mentioned quite a few times, that if it where YOU and not us who had ALL the nukes, neither him nor I would be writing this at this very moment. And to quote him again:

ISLAM WON'T HAVE IT ANOTHER WAY

Zenster said...

Solkhar: Zenster, actually on blog sites like this the subject of the Qur'an (note correct spelling that represents phonetic pronunciation) that it is raised constantly because it is being discussed and attacked. Thus it is people like yourself that raise the profile and of course if a Muslim comes accross he/she will defend it.

If you bothered to pay attention instead of letting your skinless hypersensitivities run wild, you'd have noticed that my first comment's mention of the "Koran" is in italics because I am quoting someone else.

Furthermore, I routinely spell the word as "Qur'an" so you really should keep your criticisms and general Islamic da'wa to yourself. Perish the thought that you might forsake drilling your Muslim agenda into every exchange.

Solkhar: That certainly is an issue Robert, work on it, point out the errors on immigration laws that allowed extremists into your country and also why they are not welcome in the "real Muslim world".

As if Western immigration laws are the source of extremism. What will it take for you to finally admit that the vast majority of this world's religious extremism originates with Islam?

No other group sponsors so many violent and fatal attacks around the entire world. You claim that the extremists "are not welcome in the "real Muslim world". So, where are the average Muslims who should be reporting these jihadists to the authorities. Where are all of the executions of Muslim terrorists that should be going on if law enforcement were doing their job?

Islamic terrorism exists because the jihadists are able to swim in the Muslim ocean of tacit or overt support in the form of zakat and other material resources. Little, if anything, is being done to halt this from happening. Pakistan and Iran are bulk sponsors of international terrorism and both nations need to be dismantled as failed states.

Finally, do you honestly think that if the Palestinians possessed Israel's military might and skill that the Israeli Jews would even be alive today? Similarly, do you maintain that the West would still be free of Islamic domination if Muslim majority nations had all of the nuclear arsenals and we did not?

The reason why I continue to mention nuclear weapons is because Islam drools at the very thought of deploying them against dar al harb. Iran's headlong rush to arm itself with nuclear weapons represents one of the single greatest threats to global security and yet the bulk of Muslims refuse to criticize Khameini or Ahmadinejad for imperiling the entire MME (Muslim Middle East).

Are you familiar with the "Sansom Option". A single WMD attack upon Israel could result in massive Israeli retaliation that would glass and Windex™ the entire MME. This is what Islam's genocidal hatred of the Jews is leading towards.

Once again, if the Palestinians stopped all aggression against Israel, do you honestly think that the conflict between them would go on for another minute?

Why haven't far more wealthy and prosperous Arab nations simply absorbed the Palestinian population and resolved this crisis overnight? Even Arafat admitted that the entire Palestinian people and their perpetual "crisis" was made up from whole cloth.

The endless strife that manifests around our world so often seems to have Islam as its root cause. Why is that? Why do Muslims expect that they should be able to build mosques throughout the West when churches and synagogues are forbidden in most Muslim majority nations?

One single distinguishing hallmark of Islam is that it is a one way street. Reciprocity plays no part in Islamic culture and the West should feel no obligation to accommodate one whit of Muslim needs so long as that reciprocity is not forthcoming from Islam.

Marian - CZ said...

Solkhar: global Caliphate is a joke, unatainable for countless reasons

A joke? Yes. A ridiculous joke, just like global communist classless, moneyless society.

Nevertheless, millions of people perished in the last century, because the push of the ideological fanatics towards that unattainable goal exceeded all reasonable limits.

People who primarily think with their brains tend to underestimate the power of strong faith - and its ability to ignore inconvenient reality, even paying the price with blood and death.

I am tempted to say that the whole problem that Europe has with political Islam stems from the inability of the previous generations of rank-and-file Europeans to imagine the sheer absurdity and irrationality of Hizb-ut-Tahrir and their ilk.

TB said...

If the muslims ever make it to the end of the world, they will find a mirror which they will have no clue, what so ever, as to what to do about. I really really REALLY hope to live to see it. THAT would be the best laugh I'd ever had!

Solkhar said...

Marian C-Z, well put and you are spot on.

The focus should be on the reality of terrorism, its structure, its support base and its methodology but mot of all a realist view of what it is capable of and doing. Then it can be tackled and dealt with.

Not the crazed frenzy of either misinformed and confused bloggers or the disruptive agenda-based spoilers who feed that confusion.

Certainly you are correct in that the ideology if not checked will not work and fail for so many reasons but how many people will suffer or perish if it gets out of hand?

A Caliphate cannot happen because simply put - which variant? I am in the business of tracking terrorism-financing thus I think I have a good idea and background knowledge of their structures. The first thing you will notice is that there are many, many groupings with different sponsors. Though the Wahhabist based are more organised such as Al Qaeda, most are not and are sourced back to some schoo lof thought and they are ideologically apposed to eacher at various levels. Thus, to even attempt some coordinated conflict, they have to deal with each other first in some purge/pogrom and the "winner" is then free to attempt to take over the world. You can see already how impossible that is.

Add to that the fact that we are talking about only a small portion of the radical groups that espouse the Caliphate concept. Most do not and most are exiles from the actual real Muslim world. Then there is all the Muslim nations that appose such a concept, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. Do you see Ahmadinejad agreeing to seed Iran to a Sunni Caliph?

Terrorism is real, we need to deal with it, extemism as well, but the Caliphate is more alive in the mind of western fools.

Solkhar said...

Zenster mentioned that if Muslims had the nuke it would be used and has forgotten that Pakistan has them.

In all his postings he has talked about Muslims as if they are a singular political entity and that is perhaps why in his mind he can imagine a Caliphate. He apparently forgot to study one subject before starting on his personal crusade .... he forgot to actually study and know what is Islam and its variations and what real life is like in the over 60 very different countries that are Muslim.

His imagination has gone so far as to assume that say the Grand Ayatollah has influence over Sunni Muslims and thus the Pakistani nuclear arsenal is controlled by a Shi'ite cleric in Iran. Perhaps he imagines the Mullahs controlling Mecca chair some secretive committee like in a movie with Tom Hanks, plotting and sending covert instructions to "their man in Afghanistan" (Bin Laden).

The assumption that there is coordination and unity amongst the various Muslim factions and varient schools of thoughts is so great and apposing, that it is in fact probably why Islam is not more dominant in the world today - they cannot unite. Also there is a lot to say that if there was the unity, as there has been centuries ago, it has been dominated not by extremism and puritanicals but by academics and liberals. So there is a strong argument that says if unity actually starts to happen between the religous leadership that it would automatically pull down this orthodox extremist element that is destroying so much right now. Of course this is only on the religious side and we still would have to deal with political disunity between Muslim states - another subject altogether.

Zenster said...

Solkhar: Marian C-Z, well put and you are spot on.

Like many Muslims, you seem to be displaying a degree of immunity to the sarcasm I detect in Marian - CZ's comment. I think that what was said more likely reflects how those who seek the global caliphate will cheerfully do it while marching over corpses piled a thousand deep. However, I'll invite the author to claify for us all.

Marian - CZ: Nevertheless, millions of people perished in the last century, because the push of the ideological fanatics towards that unattainable goal exceeded all reasonable limits.

I interpret this as a not-very-flattering comparison between communists and Islamic supremacists. Also, the number is more likely tens or hundreds of millions, just as Hizb-ut-Tahrir would like to have it as well.

Solkhar: Zenster mentioned that if Muslims had the nuke it would be used and has forgotten that Pakistan has them.

Please pay closer attention and try not to distort my points.

My speculation dealt with what would have happened by now if the Islamic world possessed the West's nuclear arsenals and not Pakistan's dog's breakfast of low-yield warheads mated to IRBMs.

I welcome you to try and convince even a single person at this web site that the West would not be an Islamically dominated realm pockmarked with glassy ruins of its once great cities.

His imagination has gone so far as to assume that say the Grand Ayatollah has influence over Sunni Muslims and thus the Pakistani nuclear arsenal is controlled by a Shi'ite cleric in Iran.

More distortions or are they just outright lies?

My only mention of Pakistan and Iran was as bulk sponsors of international terrorism. I made no connection of their nuclear weapons programs. That is your own fabrication.

Perhaps he imagines the Mullahs controlling Mecca chair some secretive committee like in a movie with Tom Hanks, plotting and sending covert instructions to "their man in Afghanistan" (Bin Laden).

This is more crude speculation that is entirely without basis and constitutes a violation of the rules of conduct here at Gates of Vienna. You are not a mind reader. What you increasingly appear to be is a dishonest player which throws into question all of your statements about Islam.

Zenster said...

Solkhar: The assumption that there is coordination and unity amongst the various Muslim factions and varient schools of thoughts is so great and apposing, that it is in fact probably why Islam is not more dominant in the world today - they cannot unite. Also there is a lot to say that if there was the unity, as there has been centuries ago, it has been dominated not by extremism and puritanicals but by academics and liberals.

Equating adherents of shari'a law with "liberals" would be hilarious were it not so offensive. Islam contains so many deal-breakers that it defies imagination:

Abject Gender Apartheid - Islam's institutionalized misogyny is so reprehensible as to disqualify it from any part of civilized society on that basis alone.

Shari'a law - This brutal and savage penal code is so riddled with opportunities for vendetta and revenge that it makes a mockery of justice. There is no way to reattach someone's hand if they are proven innocent of theft well after the fact.

Capital Punishment for Apostasy - This sort of "cut in stone" thinking exemplifies much of what is so deadly wrong about Islam. It also highlights just how fragile and brittle Muslim faith must be.

Dhimmitude - A two tier society is no sort of civilized society at all. It is institutionalized bigotry of a sort that has no place in the modern world.

I could go on but hesitate to consume the Baron's bandwidth.

In your reply to Marian - CZ, you state that:

Add to that the fact that we are talking about only a small portion of the radical groups that espouse the Caliphate concept ... the Caliphate is more alive in the mind of western fools.

The concept of the global caliphate is written into the Qur'an:

"God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will cause them to accede to power on earth, even as He caused [some of] those who lived before them to accede to it; and that, of a certainty, He will firmly establish for them the religion which He has been pleased to bestow on them; and that, of a certainty, He will cause their erstwhile state of fear to be replaced by a sense of security [seeing that] they worship Me [alone], not ascribing divine powers to aught beside Me. But all who, after [having understood] this, choose to deny the truth - it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!"[24:55] (Surah Al-Nur, Verse 55).

Belief in the Qur'an is a belief in Islamic supremacy and its eventual domination of the entire world. Nowhere do any of the major Islamic authorities deny this and minor figures like yourself who protest otherwise are not very persuasive in the face of such moutainous evidence to the contrary.

Solkhar said...

Zenster, I think it is for Maria-CZ to comment, so who is reading who's mind?

What a laugh, someone trying to quote and interpret the Qur'an to a Muslim. I have over 30yrs have read that surah and I can even now read it in Arabic.

Extremists both Muslim and non-Muslim read everything in a literal "now" fashion and that is why they feed off each other.

What is also funny is how you try to put your agenda-based falicies as being facts.

Islam has no "Abject Gender Apartheid", it recognizes that men and women are different by their biological makeup and thus their respective responsibilities based on them. Of course what cultural/tribal sexist men do is a nother matter but it is not Islamic principles.

Shari'a law - which one, time and time again I have pointed out that there are so, so many varients and anyhow, the large majority of Muslims countries do not have it but have secular legal systems. Your repeating the same error is really embarassing...for you.

Capital Punishment for Apostasy is not practiced in the vast majority of Muslim countries and the Qur'an does not proscribe it, a number of Haddiths don't. If your understanding was correct, all Muslim states would do it and would be under Sharia Courts - why aren't they Zenster, please try and answer and not hide from that one.

Dhimmitude is not even known by almost all Muslims unless they are theology scholars or members of radical extremist groups. That reality has also been explained but is repeated by you. The word is simply used more by agenda based blog sites and their strange guests than by the avarege Muslim.

But the most funniest of all the remarks is that you have claimed my breaching the ethics of the GoV blog. I did say that "s" word and I do regret it and that post was cut - so be it. But claiming mind reading though is incorrect and you have done so as much if not more than I have in these postings.

Solkhar said...

erratum

"vast majority of Muslim countries and the Qur'an does not proscribe it, a number of Haddiths don't"

it should be "....a number of Haddiths do."

I regret the error.

Zenster said...

Solkhar: What a laugh, someone trying to quote and interpret the Qur'an to a Muslim. I have over 30yrs have read that surah and I can even now read it in Arabic.

Your arrogance is showing and it is particularly ugly.

Islam has no "Abject Gender Apartheid", it recognizes that men and women are different by their biological makeup and thus their respective responsibilities based on them. Of course what cultural/tribal sexist men do is another matter but it is not Islamic principles.

Then why do so many Muslims practice these supposedly non-Islamic principles? You keep insisting that it is the actions of Muslims that must speak for them and not the Qur'an's immortal doctrine.

The vast majority of male Muslims oppress women in innumerable and horrid ways. Regardless of whether or not such prescriptions can be found in the Qur'an, that is what is happening in the world today. Muslim actions speak louder than the Qur'an's words.

Sean O'Brian said...

Solkhar,

When discussing the Koran, what is gained for English-speaking readers by the use of the Arabic apostrophe and the use of the exotic "Q" instead of "K"?

You haven't insisted that we refer to "sharia" as "shar'ia". If your motive isn't religious then you are at least a pedant albeit an inconsistent one.

Robert Marchenoir said...

"What a laugh, someone trying to quote and interpret the Qur'an to a Muslim." (Solkhar)

There you have it, Solkhar. That's the exact reason why, despite your claims to the contrary, you're a fundamentalist and a supremacist.

That's the exact reason why, despite your claims to the contrary, Islam is an intolerant, backward, violent, totalitarian and supremacist ideology.

You keep repressing it, and it keeps showing.

You're in denial, Solkhar, and that's the kindest assumption I can make. As many, many Muslims are in denial, and not only terrorists.

Not even Hitler pretended that "nobody but a Nazi can quote and interpret Mein Kampf".

But Muslims all over the world routinely engage non-Muslims with this weel-known drill :

1. You are ignorant about Islam (or the Koran).

[Opponent's arguments make it clear that this is not the case.]

2. You are quoting the Koran out of context (or misinterpreting it).

[Opponent's arguments make it clear that he knows the context and interprets the scripture the way millions of Muslims do.]

3. Your translation of the Koran is not a good one (or : you can't really understand the Koran unless you read it in Arabic).

This last "argument" coming from a supporter of a religion which has forbidden the printing press (contrary to what the Black Messiah said in Cairo), and from a people whe has practically never translated a foreign book into Arabic (contrary to what non-Muslim Westerners have done during their history, translating and reading and studying millions of foreign books from thousands of languages, including Arabic, of course).

That's called projecting your own shortcomings and failures upon others, and it's a typical Muslim attitude.

That's one of the main reasons why Islam breeds failure, backwardness and poverty, as a simple study of history obviously shows.

Solkhar said...

Robert M is having fun trying to throw implausables and falicies into the argument, the sign of someone defending the imppossible.

His argument returns to the ideal that all Muslims are alike and gang together in one great conspiracy, his knowledge of the Qur'an is not pathetic, but typical of someone who reads websites only and knows not a single Muslim personally nor has he travelled. Television for him - be it a documentary or an action film, is simply evidence to behold!

I know many non-Muslims who post on blogs who know Islam well, the evidence is those that do not fall for the verbatum and cut & paste quotes - they know the difference.

The contexts are well-known and only the agenda-based bigots in the west or the most extreme of the hard-liners claim the contexts that suit them.

The translations are out there, there are three that are accepted by Islamic schools as good - all easily found on the internet, reading it in Arabic is still better because then it has a poetic touch that is lost in translations (though I understand the Persian transation does to a degree).

The best example of Robert M's drastic holding on to some form of argument - and failing - is his comment about banning the printer. Where? Mogadishu perhaps? No translations into Arabic? This is proof of the agenda-based rant. To practice my Arabic reading skills I go to the "corner" bookstore where I can now get Angels & Demons in Arabic. I put an order for the Lord of the Rings trillogy in Arabic, I am keen to see how that pans out in the language.

Robert M thinks that this is a game of Dungeons & Dragons, believes that Muslims sit in the desert or a jungle, has a towel on our heads and that somehow my communiciating on the internet must be via stickls banging on a drum with a flashcard attached to it?

Get real, no books and no printing presses! As Bill Engvell's comic line goes - "there's your sign!"

Solkhar said...

Sean,

the reason I place emphasis on the spelling standards is two-fold.

1) sticking to accepted international norms, since this is a published blog for all to see.

2) the ' is a pause so it is Sharia ' a, thus you say it more corretly. Same with Qur'an ... the Q is a glotal sound from the back of the throat and then there is that slight pause - Qur .. an. I simply think that any names, words or the like should be pronounced correctly, it is not for Islamic reasons at all.

Solkhar said...

Sean, should add that I type fast and often have to go through a French or Dutch - English translator before posting, even I fall for just copying what the person rights. If it seems pedantic, so be it.

Solkhar said...

Zenster, your repetition is nausiating but at least confirmation of what you do not know or chose not to.

You still ask the same questions that were answered before on other threads, why, why, why?

My argument stayes the same, what people do for their extermist, radical goals is clear, has been so since time began and every culture, faith have had it.

The issue now though is that certainly the extermist clergy many linked with radical militants dominate the theological schools, madrasas and are well planted amongst western Muslim immigrants (because they were not accepted in the actual Muslim World).

Moderate Islam does nothing - I am the first to admit it and show my disgust. Moderate clergy are drowned out and condemned in their schools by the radicals if they say anything and governments the same because of the iliterate masses in their countries who are schooled by these people.

The focus should be what to do, not misdirection that only makes things worse or wastes effort.

The first thing is to make a big deal about radical Islamists in Europe and either expell them to their fate back home or imprison them. Make it clear to the bulk Muslim population to integrate and be supported (including allowing free practice of Islam within norms of that country) or if you are not a citizen - be expelled. If the support is offered, the Muslims will turn away from the readicals.

At the same time, each time there is a open hand and constructive engagement with the Muslim West, it smacks in the face of every argument and lie that the extremists and militants (like Bin Laden) claims is a western conspiracy. What is happening in Iran with the demonstrations is a direct result of the dialogue offered by Obama in Cairo - from just one speech.

Solkhar said...

Zenster, to add one more thing - and the war in Afghanistan is critical and has to be one, Muslim nations do not but they should be in there along-side the US and others in culling once-and-for-all Al Qaeda from existance.