The same pattern can be observed in any kind of information system, particularly within political systems. Islam acts as an ESS by a variety of behaviors:
- Demanding the death of those who attempt to leave it.
- Declaring its core scripture (its DNA, if you will) perfect, immutable, and unquestionably correct.
- Requiring its adherents to marry within the system and have as little contact as possible with outsiders.
- Mandating coercive proselytization, through violence if necessary, in order to enlarge the system.
This creates a kind of homeostasis within the Ummah, which can thus remain unchanged as long as its environment stays the same.However, because the system is parasitic — it produces no wealth, but depends on booty, slave labor, and tribute to maintain itself — the environment must eventually change. When the host dies, so does the parasite. The ESS fails, and Islam reaches a dead end.
Laine is a regular commenter here at Gates of Vienna, and raised similar points on a thread from earlier today in a comment which deserves its own post (edited slightly for punctuation and spelling):
Devout Muslims are not immigrants as the West understands the term, and have no intention of assimilating when they go to Western countries. They are barred from the normal spirit of immigration by Islamic injunctions that Muslims have no business living among heathens (for fear of contamination), only converting, dhimmifying or killing them. There is to be no true collaboration, only a sham to advance Muslims’ interests.- - - - - - - - -
The only sharia-compliant way they are allowed to live in foreign countries is as infiltrators, would-be colonists whose intention it is to overwhelm the host culture and suck it into the Ummah (world wide Muslim community). They are infecting bacilli.
The pattern is clear. Every Muslim individual and family is to use the host country’s tolerance, push their boundaries to obtain elements of sharia for first Muslims, then force the larger society into complying as well (e.g. no depictions of Mohammed allowed, segueing into no cartoons by infidels to no criticism of Islam or Muslims of any kind allowed, e.g. steadily enlarging demands from halal meals on a university campus, to separate dining room for Muslims, to demanding no alcohol be served to anyone including non-Muslims on cafeteria premises etc.)
Every mosque is a community and indoctrination center run by Saudi imam-agents, claiming as big a physical footprint as possible, surrounding itself with Muslim ghettos that become no-go areas for the host population and ruled by sharia. Entire sections of cities are taken over this way. Eventually, all the dots coalesce and countries will be balkanized by large swathes of Muslim controlled territory.
This process all starts with thousands of individual acts promoting sharia creep.
Those Muslims whose children find the host culture attractive get sent back to the mother ship to get their Islamic brain chips more firmly implanted. Those who assimilate in even the most innocent of ways are exterminated in “honor” killings.
Islam is an inexorable one-way ratchet tightening its parasitic grip on any host society unwise enough to consider Muslims immigrants like any other.
Islamic glory days were due to dhimmi and slave labor being appropriated by a warlike people who could not create what they coveted. Muslims think they can recreate that history, that Westerners will continue to slave away and pay confiscatory taxes to support their Muslim layabout “masters”. They have reason to be encouraged by the present supineness of taxpayers as the Left impoverishes them to reward their constituencies. Muslims think they can just substitute themselves for the Leftist exploiters.
Neither Muslims nor Leftists understands the psychology of achievement and inevitably kill the golden goose, ending up with a dismal standard of living for all but a small elite wherever Muslim or Leftist ideas predominate. They’re like evil children who destroy the things they have no idea how to build or repair.
Leftists are the stupider of the two, thinking that they are using multicult and Muslims as a battering ram to break down Western institutions and defences, and that the Arabs will fold their tents and silently steal away leaving ungodly Leftists in the catbird seat instead of as dead catmeat.
Notice that what Laine is describing is similar to the process that Srdja Trifkovic wrote about, “The Green Corridor in the Balkans”.
48 comments:
Points of Importance
Laine is absolutely right. In addition, we see in the 21st Century something new-- The plan to apply Shariah to all the modern technology of the World. Why? Well, the Modus Operandi is to have everything submit to the Shariah and Deen of Islam. Thus, the ulema simply use analogies to apply Shariah to modern items. For example, there were no airplanes in the middle ages, but people did travel by donkeys and camels. They just derive rules from that transportation that are applicable to air travel, and presto! we have shariah-compliant air travel for the 21st. Century!
The plan for taking over the West by migration IS NOT new. It is called Al-Hijra. Historically, Malaysia, Indonesia, parts of West and Eastern Africa, and large parts of Central Asia were islamized, NOT by the sword, but by a disciplined migration strategy. I recommend the book Modern Day Trojan Horse, by Sam Solomon, {endorsed by Geert Wilders), if you want to read about this in some detail.
The West is so vulnerable to Al-Hijra because its people (especially its leaders) have come to believe that we have created a universal culture that cannot be destroyed. Thus, we expect muslims to fit in to our "universal culture" somehow, and don't understand the danger. However, Islamic civilization has developed very differently. With the collapse of colonial rule, and the cultural collapse of the West, Muslims believe that they now have the strength to restore the Caliphate on European soil.
One final point: Often people ask "What portion of Muslims are moderate and what part are 'radical'? The answer is not fixed in time. Rather, the answer is as follows: As conquest seems more likely, Muslims will become more purist; if they are stopped (by a functioning, strong culture[Such as the West had before the Western Cultural Revolution (1963-1979)], their faith will become diluted, and expansion will stop.
The West needs to know itself again and fix itself (Recover the baby we threw out with the bath water). The Real question is this-- How can we expect Muslims to agree with the West instead of pure Islam IF we don't stop 'Progressive" Traitors from hating the West, and betraying both the West, and "moderate" Muslims??
Once again we are into borg-, nanite, Ori and Wraith-territory. Resistance is futile, Hallowed are the Ori or allahu akhbar makes no difference here. It all ends the same, either the host dies or the virus is destroyed.
Robin Shadowes --
It could be both. In this case, since the host is the entire civilized world, once it dies the virus will have nowhere left to spread.
The corpse turns into a skeleton and... then what? Maybe the virus will encyst and wait a few millennia for another civilization to arise.
Has anybody ever read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson?
Makes one wonder if Islam simply isn't a manifestation of something older and far darker than we could possibly imagine. Something that has infiltrated itself in our DNA since the time the first amino acid came into being. Life harboring the seeds of its own eventual obliteration (which is not the same as death) manifesting now in this new form since life gained this level of sentience.
Even if we did manage to eradicate this scourge, it'd appear again...in another form; though perhaps horrifyingly familiar.
If Islam weren't around, we'd be compelled by this legacy to invent it.
Heh, sorry...was reading some classic sci fi of the type that posed questions such as this. Was wondering if perhaps we as humans are, for some reason, compelled to our own obliteration by these means...and if so, to what purpose?
Baron Bodissey: Has anybody ever read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson?.
Yes. While possessing a particularly high Geek Factor, Stephenson's work is usually based in sufficient fact (e.g., "Cryptonomicon"), or solidly constructed speculative fiction that the end result can be a rollicking bit of reading.
I can only assume that you are referring to the character, "Raven" who is just as ready to destroy the world that created him, much like Islam is prepared to suck dry the husk of Western civilization even though millions of Muslims will die of starvation and deprivation once the necessary high technology of advanced medicine and agribusiness are snuffed out.
PS: Baron, if you enjoy Stephenson's work, I urge you to peruse Peter Hamilton's various trilogies. The man is a master of high technology and uses it as a mere platform for even more complex and well-fleshed out plots.
Dymphna, has a detailed reading list of Hamilton's works. Despite the tremendous length of the book and its companion volumes, I still recommend starting with, "The Reality Dysfunction".
The title alone should induce a few who read this to investigate.
Watching Eagle: Points of Importance
One of your very best posts. Please consider using this writing style as a model for your future contributions. It was exceptionally readable and very communicative.
Congratulations.
Churchill said once that "if you look hard enough for something, eventually you will find it - even if it is not there".
This item is simply that, as is most of this website.
There is no denying that Fundamentalists in the Muslim World are a huge danger, problem and it is the Muslims themselves that live in those countries dominated or run by them who suffer the most. It is an issue and it is the Muslims themselves that must change it.
But the article is simply another one of those attempts to simplify, generalize and imagine rather than reflect any reality.
There was no reflection in the item that the bulk of the Muslim world lives within the developing world, harsh lives, poor education - that results in their reliance on the only form of education - madrasas and ironically - do not care for nor are bothered to even think about world domination, Caliphates and all the paranoid west thinks about. But having said that, they believe what fundamentalists clerics tell them.
The real Muslim world is something very different to that article.
....(continued from above)...
Most Muslims wherever they are, live their life, try to improve it, only turn up at a mosque at prayer times and go back to what they are doing and only a handfull remain to "chat" to the Imam or Mullahs there.
The article assumes that the Muslim world is dominated by these Fundamentalists and that their actions represents all of Islam and Islamic ideals - it is simply not the case.
They are prominant because of their violence and because the very foolish western governments in the 1970s let the real nasty ones into the UK, US and other countries without thinking why the host country was targetting them. They did so as a political game that backfired.
30 years of establishing themselves, building networks, targetting conservative immigrant groups. These fundamentalists you see in these countries demand things that are NOT ACCEPTED in the actual Muslim World and yet it is writters, blogers and other agenda based groups that seem to think that they represent the entire Muslim World!
This article assumes that some 70yr olf Berber lady in the Atlas Mountains with her apple trees along with some 70yr old Indonesian rice farmer and a 10yr old boy in Bangladesh with his oxe are all conspiring somehow.
re: what Robin Shadowes wrote...
Mahound et al fabricated a religion called Mahoundianism, which his followers successfully use in an attempt to conquer and to control non-ascended beings - also known as Dhimmies and Kafirs. The Mahoundians attempt to destroy any planet and any civilization that reject Mahoundianism. A central theme in the show is that although the Mahoundians practize assidous unrationality and confessional stupidity, they, as Sciontologists of yestermillenium, succeed in arousing esteem and admiration and even collaboration among the blurred non-ascended masses. Why?
The Return of Enlightment?
For Freedom of thought and independent thinking among Mahoundians...
Interesting you should cite Churchill, Solkhar...
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”
—Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).
Zenster, have you read Diamond Age? It was hinted to be a sort of kind of sequel to Snow Crash by virtue of the presence of a single character who might be a character from the previous book, aged and fairly elderly. Possibly. Interesting book though.
I can second the recommendation for The Reality Dysfunction and the "commonwealth" books - Pandora's Star and Judas Unchained - but Hamilton seems to have jumped the shark a bit with his latest series. They didn't grab me at all.
I cited Churchill Graham because everyone loves to through that quote that you just did. I am a fan of Churchill in the sense of history, his efforts and I studied him at Masters level. Though I could admire the man, he also represents a culture and attitude of more than a century ago, the Empire, colonization, catastrophes such as Gallipoli and even to a point the formation of Yugoslavia under Tito. He represented in many fashions the best and the worst of his society - resilliance and bigotry.
Oh, the quote/comment above yours appears to be a work of fiction.
sorry, "Scientologists" were meant!
- a late correction is better than none.
"This article assumes that some 70yr olf Berber lady in the Atlas Mountains with her apple trees along with some 70yr old Indonesian rice farmer and a 10yr old boy in Bangladesh with his oxe are all conspiring somehow".
But they are conspiring, wittingly or unwittingly as long as they are guided by the supremacist take-over documents the Koran and hadith. They are a part of the billion whose sheer number is used to boggle the western elite's mind.
And the other necessary half to bring the plan to fruition is the nativete of Solkhar assuming he/she's a westerner and if it is in fact naivete and not deliberate takiya to advance the Muslim cause.
I lean toward takiya artist because of the manifest manipulation of choosing three thumbnail sketches of Muslims designed to make them look innocent as lambs. The 10 year old Bangladeshi may well end up in a Pakistani madrassa, still illiterate but indoctrinated while memorizing the Koran in Arabic of which he cannot understand a word to become a human bomb. The rice farmer may have joined the Muslim street in the semi-regular protests against the latest Western "insult" to his religion like cartoons or Teddy bears. The old lady's zakat goes to arm the militants etc.
But Solkhar sings his Lorelei lullaby. Everyone go back to sleep until western civilization founders on Islamic rocks. Listen to the fairy tale that Muslims are just old and young people in far off places, living pastoral lives of simplicity and grace...and conversely, anyone who lumps these people in with the activist fundamentalists whom Solkhar minimizes as so few in number (instead of at least 10% of a billion) is way off base.
No mention of the much more typical Muslim with whom most westerners now have personal experience:
He's urban, congregates in Muslim ghettos, knows of suspicious types hanging out at his mosque but lets them and the imam get on with it. She's mummified to her eyeballs and wears the religiously unnecessary "uniform" to get in westerners' faces and occupy territory visually. The daughter rebelled briefly against the hijab, but was brought into line with news of honor killings in her city. The son gets his hours of hate lessons daily on the Internet. The uncle has initiated a frivolous human rights complaint that will cost taxpayers thousands and advance the constraints of sharia on non-Muslims. With his multiple wives and children all drawing Welfare he is a one-man drain on social services that the rest of the family will never make up in taxes.
No mention of the Pew poll showing over 20% of young American Muslims agreeing that suicide bombing is justified and those were only the ones who admitted it.
Conversely, the mythical moderate Muslims who do NOT work toward sharia in every Western country have yet to show up in any numbers. They are a brave few but impotent, shunned by the ummah as apostates. Not a single congregation has ejected their Saudi-provided firebrand clerics as "too fundamentalist" for their tastes. Instead, the few moderate members of the congregation who speak up are ostracized or ejected.
Give it up Solkhar. The training manual and blueprint for Muslims is the same no matter how old they are or how far away. That you refuse to read them is one thing. That you try to throw desert sand in the eyes of those who have read and understood their significance makes you either a liberal whose sloppy sentimentality and refusal to do his homework endangers all of us or more likely committing takiya for the unholy alliance of Islam and Leftism.
Zenster --
No, I meant the Snow Crash itself. IIRC, it was an encoded digitized set of instructions genetically replicated in the neural programming of the human brain. It had been artificially established there thousands of years ago, and became active when a person viewed a certain visual pattern which triggered the buried instructions.
When the Snow Crash awakened within a person he became terminally and violently insane.
To use the same language style, give it up Iaine. The training manual and blueprint for agenda based bigots is the same no matter how old they are or how far away.
Your arguing about the unwitting masses of Muslims supporting the consipracy theory of yours falls flat based on two simple points - the Qur'an does not support supremicist views nor a desire to take over the world. To argue such would also condemn the Torah and the Bible for using the same language. All three talk about utopias, the afterlife, fire and brimstone and that they are correct, etc, etc.
The typical and predictable use of taqiyya (ie no matter what I say you will thus say I lie) does not stick, it denigrates the common sense of readers and is just a last resort and rather lame excuse that somehow you know Islam better than Muslims themselves.
As for westerner, born in Leidschendam near Rotterdam in The Netherlands. Educated at Errasmus College Den Haag, member of the foreign service for 22 years, serving in numerous postings representing my country which I am proud of - your fear Iaine is realised, a Muslim who was brought up in the west AND represented it and yet is a Muslim is able to read through your hype.
The examples of a Moroccan, Indonesian and a Bangladeshi stick - and your retort only shows you have no knowledge of the real world. A Bangadeshi boy in a village would rather drown in a pond then ever turn up in Pakistan, he is more likely to die of a water-born disease or drown in the next cyclone. The old man in Indonesia may perhaps only visit a big city once in his life and the old lady in a berber village in the mountains gives her zakat to a poorer neighbour. Your lack of awareness of the life or plight of other people is an endemic example of western ignorance.
I have made it clear in all my postings that fundamentalists are a real and present threat, particularly to those that have to suffer its day to day abuse. What I am saying and have made it just as clear is that the arrogance and bigotry of those that push the paranoid agenda that you are, distracts from the real threats, proves the arguments that some of them give to the conservative mass that westerners hate Muslims and wish to start a holy Crusade. Thus you wittingly or unwittingly (to use your phrase) is in fact supporting the efforts of fundamentalists. Great, thank you on behalf of humanity!
.....continued/
The reality of fundamentalists in Europe and the US is a very sad case, whom much of the blame should be on the authorities themselves. Why is it that in the 1970s that thousands of asylum seekers from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, PAkistan, Iran and other locations were allowed in without check? It was a political game and it has backfired. These refugees were in fact hard-liner fundamentalists who were a danger to everyone.
What you avoid in your ranting is the fact that the fundamentalists in the west are demanding, pushing and demonstrating for so-called "rights" that in fact are not accepted back home in the Muslim World. That says it all.
Your simplification of issues is just as bad as your painting broad strokes, you cannot claim that the emotions of youths are are a reflection of one issue.... the argument of Israel/Palestine automatically produces extreme opinions on most people, the war in Iraq, 9/11 or simply unemployment in France and so forth - then you have an understanding of "opinion polls".
Lastly, I have stated it already twice now on this blog - yes there is no excuse that the moderate Muslim is not fighting back adequately or overtely to battle against fundamentalism. They are as human as the rest of the world, their own politics, nationalism (which shows the concept of Caliphate is a pipe dream and boogey man only), ethnicities and sheer desire to survive all have an input into why they stay silent - still no excuse and I certainly am amongst the first to condemn that.
To thus repeat - give it up Iaine, your repetative and rather nauseating agenda is clear and does not stick as valid but rather stick as something that smells on an out-house door. In the end, the subject is about fundamentalism and right-wing bigotry versus liberalism and people trying to get on with their lives......
"Has anybody ever read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson?"
I read a lot of sci-fi when I was younger but nowadays consumes the genre via movies and tv-series instead. But now you had me curious and I might check out this Stephenson on my local library in the close future. Right now I'm waiting for a batch of cd's that will keep me busy for a while.
Your arguing about the unwitting masses of Muslims supporting the consipracy theory of yours falls flat based on two simple points - the Qur'an does not support supremicist views nor a desire to take over the world. To argue such would also condemn the Torah and the Bible for using the same language. All three talk about utopias, the afterlife, fire and brimstone and that they are correct, etc, etc
Condemn the Torah and the Bible if you wish, it means nothing to a man such as I who cares not about either. Nor do I have to, the followers of such religions haven't shown anything more than being occasionally annoying with a few nut jobs here and there (and are rightly called such by EVERYONE). If anything watching the shear number of nobel prize winners, alternate schools of thought (such as yours), technological advancements...hell, the idea that people create wealth from their own actions and mind come from these societies; while putting said ideas in practice and creating wealth, homes, food, etc. in abundance for all is most telling societies that spring from such mindsets. The same cannot be said of the Islamic mindset or society.
I'll eagerly await your correlation does not equal causation and further moral equivalence arguments...starting with the inquisitions (over, done with, and condemned for the monstrocities they were...centuries ago).
In regards to the Qur'an not supporting supremicist views...I'll admit to not being able to quote verse for verse of said book, but I have read it, as well as a bit of the Sunnah and Hadith (my appologies for the likely mispellings) and I'm going to have to conclude that if you HAVE read it, the book you read and the book I read are two entirely different things. Given also that Islam is also their oral tradition and the path Muhammad was said to walk (Sunnah and Haddith), not to mention the shear number of wack jobs terrorist organizations, terror attacks, attrocities, and just the way the countries that Islam controls are run, I'm going to have to conclude that not only are you blinder than a bat, but that you are actively not seeing objective reality in front of you. A typical liberal problem, which is sad as it seems you are both intelligent and articulate...not very discerning though. They really DO want to do take over the world and have told us so on several times, citing previously mentioned documents, along with the applicable sections of said documents to justify their behavior. Again, having read the Koran and said passages of those other docs, they are not lying or misrepresenting their faith in the least, and are acting as they should by the tennants of their faith.
With that in mind, you have a pretty way of writing, but one only needs to look at the world and watch what is happening to know that your arguements are not correct in their ascertations.
Be blind if you wish, I care not. Continue to show us your world view...it's quite instructive, though not in the way you wish to be sure. Do not expect us to believe anything you say about the safety of the tracks though...especially not while we're all watching the train coming right for us.
Karjalan Sissit is the main musical project of Markus Pesonen. He combines neoclassical orchestral arrangements with elements of noise, power electronics and dark ambient.
On one of his albums he has a track called ESS. I have been wondering for quite a while now about what this is actually supposed to denote. And now I know, thanks to you !
Many thanks for clearing that one up !
http://www.discogs.com/Karjalan-Sissit-Karjalasta-Kajahtaa/master/39521
Hell hath no fury like the takiya artist scorned.
The "credentials" you present are irrelevant when you tell a whopper like Islam not being a supremacist religion and comparing the Koran and believers' attitude toward it to the Bible or Torah. This invalid comparison of the Koran set in stone in the stone age and believed to be the immutable word of Allah by every practising Muslim, to be followed slavishly along with the warlike example of Mohammed in the hadith, this comparison to how contemporary Christians look and act on the Bible and Jews the Torah is shameless. It has been refuted thousands of times by people well versed in these matters. There is not a single Muslim country that is not ruled by sharia except for Turkey strong armed by Ataturk into the twentieth century and even it keeps trying to revert. Conversely, there is not a single majority Christian state where there is NOT secular government. Do not take other people for fools especially on this site.
You embroider the alibis of your three unrepresentative Muslims to no purpose. You chose them to illustrate the canard of Islam as a religion of peace. Every day's newspaper brings fresh evidence of that lie, evidence, not fairy tales of how you perhaps would personally like Islam to be (your truculent attitude hardly deserves the benefit of a doubt).
As soon as Jews and Christians go about blowing up civilians including women and children in thousands of incidents in dozens of countries around the globe in the name of their Gods without the worldwide Jewish or Christian community raising their voices except to whine about disrespect to their religion, then they can be described as "crusading". Even the original crusades were merely an attempt to take back by force what Muslims had stolen by force. You cannot use "crusade" as shorthand for Christian wrongdoing here as on a leftist site. Your fellow Muslims are committing ongoing racial genocide of Sudanese blacks of all religions with a death toll over 400 000 and counting which perturbs you not a whit. Historical Christian sins pale by comparison.
Oh and let us not forget the obligatory name calling of bigot (definition: non-Muslim who's winning an argument with a Muslim).
If you are indeed a western Muslim, you are part of the problem. Your pretense of disapproval for fundamentalists and chiding of the mythical moderate Muslims for not doing more (LOL how about doing ANYTHING) to counter their bloodthirsty brethren is hardly convincing when you simultaneously and aggressively promote takiya 101, the basics, not even an advanced form to non-Muslims at a site named Gates of Vienna for a purpose that appears to escape you.
I could almost feel sorry for you if you actually were one of the largely mythical moderate Muslims and felt caught between a rock and a hard place, afraid to confront the Muslim majority threatening your cushy western life by drawing westerners' attention to Islam but resenting the justified suspicion their actions bring on their co-religionists. Islam just does not stand up to close scrutiny, does it, so you do your part to distract from its tenets and habits. However, your bullheaded Groucho Marx approach "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" and sense of entitlement to have your fantasies believed mitigate against sympathy. I know of some moderate Muslims by name and read their sincere and informative warnings to non-Muslims, and you are no moderate Muslim but an enabler of the fundamentalists on the front burner by fuming on the back burner at uppity infidels instead of the supposed "hijackers" of your religion/ideology.
And if this is your idea of serving your birth country, the Netherlands as a Muslim, then it goes a long way to explaining their present problems.
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – Malaysian police Wednesday freed nine Christians who were arrested and held overnight after a university official mistakenly accused them of trying to convert Muslim students.
The nine were released without charge, but their arrests could deepen frustrations among religious minorities who feel authorities in this Muslim-majority nation increasingly ignore their rights in favor of Islam.
Proselytizing of Muslims is forbidden in Malaysia, although the reverse is allowed. Muslims, who comprise nearly two-thirds of Malaysia's 28 million people, are also not legally permitted to change religion.
Christians arrested
So many Muslims seem to completely misundestand that Islam allows religious pluralism and freedom. I wonder how they get so bigotted.
Christians and other non-Muslims living in Muslim countries are the most persecuted people on earth. The tragedy is that the West, for political, or PC reasons, seems quiet unable to offer these poor people even the comfort of words. It must be pure hell to live in a country where at any moment you could be arrsted for defaming the Koran, or slandering muhammed.
Laine,
Your use of the word taqqiya is always going to be your lame excuse no matter what I say, so why bother responding. This is your obligitory name calling, taqiyya or bigot as you mentioned.
If anyone has their facts wrong, I find giant gaping holes in your fictional work here. For a start most Muslim countries do not have Sharia courts, but have secular courts with Sharia inspired moral legislation. Turkey has secular courts but it should be pointed out that its moral code is still spelled out based on the "strong principles of Allah and common decency". I was posted for two years in our Embassy in Ankara.
The language, emphasis and conceptuality of the Torah, Qur'an and Bible are much the same, to say otherwise just shows that your just another western arm-chair pretend-theologan. Just as Christianity followed the Hebrews, Islam continues the faith of the People of The Book.
The Haddith should not even be uttered in comparison with Holy Books and has no relevance, it is the words of men of the time and depending on which community/sect/region you are from, its importance varies.
I suggest you study history before you even start the game of justifying acts of men from one time and not from the present, emotionally giving examples of attrocities now as some rediculous proof. We should all be honest with ourselves, the acts of men of all religion has caused countless "hell" for everyone at various times through history and to make something horrible in a simple phrase - right now it is Muslim fundamentalists who are doing so.
I find your presumptive position that you can tell a Muslim what his or her religion is rather pathetic just as much as your assumptions about what my contribution to society is. To add to that your question regarding why I even post on a blogsite like Gates of Vienna is more than obvious - the time for self-confirming, self-feeding paranoia is over - shock/horror a real Muslim is watching and he can point out all the gossip, confusion, lies and myths.
solkhar.blogspot.com
David,
First of all I do not condemn the Bible or Torah at all, a Muslim recognises them to various degrees. What was my point was that if you condemn the Qur'an then by default you must condemn the other two. The link is clear.
I agree with you that there are nutjobs in all religions, throughout history and right now the most prominant (and dangerous) are those in my religion. There is no question there at all.
The choke-hold by fundamentalism in Islam is what has stopped the progression and periodic ages of enlightenment with the last one in Islam being a very, very long time ago. As for prosperity, there are way to many factors to simply put it to the Islamic mindset, it has a lot to do with global history, the results of colonization and even the efforts of a few nations over the cold-war - AS WELL as the politics of dictators, corruption etc. It certainly is not alone in the Islamic world, take a look at almost all of Africa and the rest of the developing world.
"moral equivalence arguments" is always thrown in and thus returned in fashion, it fails simply because it has nothing to do with the religion but always comes back to the actions of men abusing whichever religion. I rather hate the use of examples, it results in many tit-for-tat and is endless.
Regarding supremicist views and the Qur'an and the Haddiths, yes I have studied it and now I am able to read it in Arabic as well. The important point here is that the first thing is to separate the Haddiths and the Qur'an which are two very separate items. The Haddiths are followed, disputed and there are variations depending on what community, part of the world and variation you belong to, that is part of why there are Sunnis, Shi'ites etc, and variations of each.
The Qur'an as a holy book is divided into three categories, the Message, Examples to be learnt from and historical events. Most people confuse the history as being the message, when it gives examples of the hardship, wars that were waged and the hard reality of those times. Of course agenda based antiIslamists carefully quote only those versus that suit their point, carefully sidestepping those that actually answer the point in question. IE "kill them all" which was a battle order but ignoring "God loveth not the oppressors" and "God loveth not the aggressors" which gives clear instruction.
To finish, it is worth repeating that there is no doubt that fundamentalists have hijacked much of the lives of millions of Muslims, are present in the West making threats and demands (that are mostly not accepted in the Muslm World) and of course are amongst real and dangerous terrorists. What is important here is that they do not represent the Islam of the majority of Muslims and Muslim countries. To target Islam (and thus all Muslims) creates both hate and confusion as well as a misdirection by not targetting the real and dangerous enemy - fundamentalism in all religions.
Solkhar,
To finish, it is worth repeating that there is no doubt that fundamentalists have hijacked much of the lives of millions of Muslims, are present in the West making threats and demands (that are mostly not accepted in the Muslm World) and of course are amongst real and dangerous terrorists. What is important here is that they do not represent the Islam of the majority of Muslims and Muslim countries.
Whether these fundamentalists represent Islam or Not-Islam they ought to be deported either way. According to what Wilders recently told a Dutch-Morrocan journalist, only those who commit criminal acts or call for the instigation of sharia law would be made to leave if he became PM. The rest could either repatriate voluntarily or stay if they behaved themselves.
I'm sure a lot of these fundamentalists would be better off in their countries of origin, restrained from using violence under the local dictatorships. Incidentially I much prefer "fundamentalist" to "Islamofascist" - the latter sounds like a Muslim follower of Mussolini.
Islam o phobe (an appropriate name if ever).
A number of clear points comes out of your posting.
I am the first to agree that Western governments have made some very serious blunders. Allowing in persons who clearly will not support integration, codes of conduct and the laws of a country is self-defeating for the state. I would go as far as to demand it by contract with the punishment of deportation.
Another point is to realise the history of fundamentalists in the West, particularly the UK, US, France and The Netherlands. In the 1970s they allowed any so-called political assylum seekers from Egypt, Saudi, Iran and Pakistan (and others) as a political statement against those countries. It backfired because these people were in trouble in their own countries because they were religo-political trouble makers - ie extremist fundamentalists and future terrorists. They have now had 30 plus years to set themselves up, find ignorant and uneducated immigrants to follow and build their networks.
Now the last point is that you refer to Geert Wilders who is nothing more than a power-seeking bigot who relies on scandal to ensure popularity. He has crossed the line to many times, has been hypocritical to a point of absurdity and has been charged with two counts of insighting hate and will suffer accordingly.
He for example says that he has nothing against Musims but that the Qur'an is evil and should be banned. Anyone with the smallest of understanding will know that if you have no Qur'an you have no Muslims.
He also claims as his weapon - "freedom of speach no matter what" but when recently the debate about holocaust denial was raised in Holland - he said nothing instead of supporting it under his freedom of speech ideal. Why not?
Simply because he is supported by and a friend of the Jewish People - well that is not even true, he is a friend of the right-wing Likud party and stays on a Kabbutz when he visits frequently. So he is unable to support his own ideals.
The last thin you should do is make Wilders and example to prove a point other than supporting proven bigotry.
Muslims Set Church Ablaze
(AINA) -- In a continuation of the ongoing wave of arson attacks on Coptic places of worship, the Church of St. Abaskharion Kellini, in the village of Ezbet Bassilious, Beni Mazar, was burnt down at noon on July 11 by Muslim village inhabitants. No one was injured.
A source in Bani Mazar Diocese told Free Copts advocacy the fire was instigated and directed as usual by State Security, aiming "to prevent prayers in new churches throughout both the Upper Egyptian provinces of Minya and of Beni Suef."
Reverend Abraham Phillobos, pastor of the torched Church told Coptic News Bulletin that the Security authorities are trying to falsely implicate the Copt Reda Gamal.
The Church was officially inaugurated on July 3 by the Bishop of Beni Mazar and was licensed for prayer. It was closed on that same day by State Security 'for security reasons and to avert a sectarian crisis,' and was placed under continuous guard.
Eyewitnesses named three Muslim village inhabitants Ahmed Abdelghani, Ahmed El-Qatawy and Eid Sayed Ahmad of torching the Church after spraying it with kerosene, according to Mikhael Fares of Copts United advocacy.
"The State, the Security authorities and the Muslims all do not want any Churches, and the Muslim village inhabitants torched it because they just do not want any Churches," an eyewitness who wished to remain anonymous told Coptic News Bulletin. "We have been warned by security not to talk to anyone especially with the Coptic media from abroad."
Muslims Set Church Ablaze
The persecution of non-Muslims in Muslim countries continues - from the state, or from ordinary people, it is general and ongoing. No such general persecution exists in any western country.
The Barnabus Fund is one of the few organisations that atleast brings to light this ghastly ongoing tragedy.
Solkhar,
That's the only truth that you've spoken, that you're a real Muslim.
And that's your only worth at this site, to demonstrate what the West is up against, another type of actor who is no less damaging than the fundamentalists you pretend to decry while defending their koranic script. Are they or their educated handlers so stupid they've misread the script? If so, where are your religious authorities denouncing them in unison and repeatedly to get things back on track?
Let a Muslim run on long enough as you now have and the hatred of Jews starts seeping through. Your main objection to Wilders besides his being another truth teller about Islam is that he is a friend to Israel. Your own words betray you.
You are not even embarrassed at the logical incoherency of comparing what Christianity did centuries ago to what your ideology is doing in the present. What can that be termed but bald-faced takiya, comparing centuries' old apples to contemporary oranges?
You have no moral explanation for the silence on Darfur of the same Muslim umma that has no trouble getting thousands to riot on streets around the globe about teddy bears and cartoons insulting your warlord prophet. Obviously Arab Muslims killing hundreds of thousands of other Muslims because they're black does not insult your prophet or religion. In fact, Muslims are the largest killers of Muslims in the world today. They are also the largest persecutors of every other faith. Your illusion that the best defense is to go on the offense fools no one. Your religion is the one busy offending and physically attacking adherents of every other faith in every Muslim dominated country and even non-Muslim countries now (e.g. Mumbai, India) in thousands of documented incidents.
You express contempt for anyone who dares to make factually based observations on Islam that you prefer to keep in a cognitive "no-go" zone. You keep repeating how nervy it is for a non-Muslim to tell a Muslim about his own religion while making pompous pronouncements about Christianity and Judaism yourself. Hypocrite.
In fact, your vast sense of entitlement is also Muslim/Arab. You are not the almighty representative of all Muslims who cannot be contradicted and most of my information comes from trustworthy Muslims who unlike you are not continually trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and dressing up the wolf of Islam in sheep's clothing.
I take it as a given that there are nice Muslims who wish the West no active harm but they are part of a system that very much wishes us harm and if they do not stand up and oppose sharia creep in Western countries, they are part of the problem.
You are not even in that relatively benign category as you are actively trying to gain strategic advantage for Allah by misrepresenting Islam as you likely did during your entire career "serving" the Netherlands. Why you come here to the very Gates of Vienna where there's a shortage of the gullible and the dhimmi-spirited is a mystery.
First of all I do not condemn the Bible or Torah at all, a Muslim recognises them to various degrees. What was my point was that if you condemn the Qur'an then by default you must condemn the other two. The link is clear.
Yes, they sure do, don't they? When they're not persecuting the Jews, they're torching Churches as fellow 'children of the book'. From the Copts in Egypt being persecuted and their churches desecrated to Iran's 'Mad Jad' saying he's going to nuke Israel...yeah, they recognize it. What was it that Muhammad said there near his death? Oh right...
Hadith Malik 511:1588 -
"O Lord, perish the Jews and Christians. They made churches of the graves of their prophets. There shall be no two faiths in Arabia."
That's how they recognize Christians and Jews.
But let's play a little more. The Link is Clear? By your extremely limited statements of before, yes, those are similar. I even think the Church of the Spagetti Monster has stated similar, to comedic effect. Also, THETANS! >_> Yes, I went there.
Getting back on track, as we all know, the devil is in the details, and when you start further examination we see God described by the Torah as a just and somewhat vengeful diety, the Bible as a loving yet stern father figure, and by the Koran as a creature who'd create a beatle, tear off all its legs, and then burn it to slowly to death because it couldn't walk...and was a beatle.
I could go on, but there are others far more versed in this than I, and could do better. Perhaps Fjordman could get in on this one since he's far more knowledgable than most of us about said details.
As for your lack of condemnation, agreed, you didn't explicitely condemn them, but you tried to draw the same parallel most Mohammedians and their liberal enablers have drawn for awhile to distract from the more pressing issues. The one that laine already so eloqunetly noted was a logical fallacy given the behaviors and achievments of said groups of people.
I agree with you that there are nutjobs in all religions, throughout history and right now the most prominant (and dangerous) are those in my religion. There is no question there at all.
Ah, I thought you were liberal, not Muslim. I'm sorry, I'll have to adjust myself accordingly. Unfortunately, due to the nature of your religion, I have to assume that there's everything you say is a lie, and all actions are a trick. All is permitted if it advances the Umah, so even a truth stated by you must be met as the threat it will become. Your religion threatens the lives and freedoms of me and, more importantly, my loved ones. Islam will only get to them over my dead body and a mountain of theirs...which means I will die, since life is meaningless in Islam (and there are far more of you than me), only submission to Allah, who is described more as the Devil than as any loving God.
-continued-
As for prosperity, there are way to many factors to simply put it to the Islamic mindset, it has a lot to do with global history, the results of colonization and even the efforts of a few nations over the cold-war - AS WELL as the politics of dictators, corruption etc. It certainly is not alone in the Islamic world, take a look at almost all of Africa and the rest of the developing world.
Ah yes, blame everyone else but yourselves for the problems you created for yourselves. Also, this is true about Africa, but we know what's causing their problems...just as we know what's causing those of the Umah. You're trying to draw an equivlance where there isn't one, or should I say, there is, but it's not the one you're trying to draw. However, I'll let those who are more versed in that little problem called Tribalism discuss THAT.
I rather hate the use of examples, it results in many tit-for-tat and is endless.
Your problem is, that you HAVE no examples, where as those on this blog are posting examples of Islam's barbarism in real time...on this thread for further amusement.
Regarding supremicist views and the Qur'an and the Haddiths, yes I have studied it and now I am able to read it in Arabic as well.
That's funny since I hear a lot of the original text is actually in several mixed up languages and grammar rules and thus is pure jibberish.
Of course agenda based antiIslamists carefully quote only those versus that suit their point, carefully sidestepping those that actually answer the point in question
Pot. Kettle. Black? Mind you, again, there are several examples a day of Islamic terrorism, sudden Jihad syndrome, things like that. At this point, I really don't need to quote verses and such; I need only let the actions and words of your fellow Mohammedians speak for themselves.
To target Islam (and thus all Muslims) creates both hate and confusion as well as a misdirection by not targetting the real and dangerous enemy - fundamentalism in all religions.
When other religions start blowing up their sons to kill the infidel and sacrifice their daughters for the crime of being raped, we can talk about that. At present though, this is a rather transparent attempt at misdirection, which would work on a liberal blog, but not here. Again, keep talking, I find this very instructive, though again, not in the way you intend.
David, re Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
Mohammed says in the koran that:
1) Judaism has a Messiah named 'Ezra'.
2) Christianity says that the Trinity is composed of 'Father, Son and Mary'
This means that there is an obvious legal argument in Islam that the people calling themselves Christians and Jews today are fake Christians and fake Jews.
Either all Christians today are fake christians or the koran is wrong.
David, you stated "That's funny since I hear....." I think that says it all. Your choice to only hear and read what you like makes for bad academia. Quoting Haddiths (by men) of the politics of centuries ago and yet in the same message telling me that I avoid the "now" is not only a skewered view but simply shows an agenda.
I have made it clear on numerous postings that the acts of political man and fundamentalists abusing religious texts is the great problem of "today". I also have and will continue to condmen the disasters caused by these people in my religion. Unlike most of you, I have travelled and seen them with my own eyes.
The best example of your seeing only what you want in my text is regarding the condition of the Muslim nations where you say I blame everyone else but the Muslims themselves, though in that very statement I refered to dictators, corruption - I find your perverse agenda rather low - are you not embarrassed?
There is no denying "all the effects" of history, politics, fundamentalism, corruption, greed, other countries influences, economic factors, natural colamity. I noticed also how you avoided the fact that these same categories affect nations just as badly that are not Muslim. Are you saying that the developing world is only Muslim or have you just carefully forgotten your geography and world politics?
Laine, I think lost it some time back.
In your previous post you already showed how mixing fact and fiction with a serious lack of international politics, history and a presumption of a knowledge of religion - not to mention the fools rant of telling someone that they know someones religion better then them.
Wilders is a bigot that is clear and he publically acknowledged that he is a "friend of Israel", has lived there at times and visits the location regularly. That he is linked to Likudist extremists is also a known fact and they are anti-Islamists. It is Wilders who brings that fact above. I never said anything about being anti-Jew or anti-Israel - that was you.
To make things clear - though you will always bring the taqqiya card since you play it at your leisure - Jews, Chistians and Muslims are all considered The People of The Book and it says clearly in the Qur'an - not Haddiths - that all Good Jews and Christians will sit shoulder-to-shoulder with Good Muslims at the Gates of Heaven on Judgement Day. Secondly, do not assume that all Muslim Nations go around chacing Jews, I live in Morocco with the largest Jewish community in the Muslim World, with tourists direct from Israel coming each year for both pilgrimage, beaches and shoping. A country where the senior advisor the King is a Jew.
I just love those agenda based nutjobs that read crap, post crap and then believe their own crap.
Liane, simply put your full of it. You start and end each of your message with "no matter what you say you are a liar and I will not believe you anyway" - so why you post in the first place if your initial posturing has your head already well shoved in the sand - or somewhere a bit more humid.
Ursus Maritimus - needs to get facts straight but then you used the phrase "is an obvious legal argument in Islam" which means they are not serious anyhow.
The actual theological setting is clear and always has been:
Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they accept the Torrah as the Old Testiment and thus they believe that all Jews should have accepted Christ. The New Testiment was created and the book was called the Bible.
Needless to say, since there are still Jews, it can be said that many did not accept that.
Muslims believe the same as the Christians and will add that later came Mohammed and that there was some corruption to the texts of both the Torah and the Bible and that the new holy book - The Qur'an explains it all. They believe of course that all those Christians and Jews who did not become Christians should all become Muslims.
Again, needless to say that many Christians and Jews stil exist and thus they did not chose to agree.
It is as simple as that, to add rediculous if not down-right-funny comments like "is an obvious legal argument in Islam that...." just goes to show how far some fools will go.
Solkhar is so splutteringly enraged with anyone who dares to contradict his bumpf that he lets rip the fart-like litany of invective that all Muslim supremacists reach for sooner or later since the facts are not their friends.
Didn't take too long at all for Solkhar the bully and mud slinger to emerge.
What an apt demonstration of what's in store for uppity infidels if Solkhar's type get to be in charge anywhere. In fact, this rage at non-dhimmis who won't genuflect is directed at non-Muslims in every Muslim dominated country. Bringing up one or two dhimmi infidels whom their Muslim masters find useful as advisers does not change the rule:
Muslims live well in non-Muslim lands with equal rights under the law. Non-Muslims live poorly in all Muslim lands and Solkhar should put his money where his potty mouth is and name the Muslim countries out of 57 where non-Muslims have equal rights under the law.
Behold your would-be master in all his corrosive venom while claiming vast superiority of intellect and knowledge that has yet to make an appearance.
As usual with someone with an agenda that has no substance, they can dish out crap but get all stuborn and victim-like when on the receiving end.
But keeping to the substance of the thread rather than only making personal attacks - only those so-called theocracies, ie Iran and I guess a few districts in Somalia are non-Muslims actually discriminated. The concept of dhimmitude is one discussed almost entirely in the west and in those radical mosques.
I find it rediculous that people presume that the rhetoric in radical mosques have an impact on governments - even in Iran it is only the rhetoric in the main mosque frequented by the leading ayatollahs would have any impact.
If you mentioned that this rhetoric is viewed by westerners as important, public servants and those attached to government would laugh and say - "really? how odd!". If you ask the average Muslim anywher what is dhimmi, they would simply not know, someone who went to an Islamic school (not a madrassa but a university) he would tell you that it was a structure created from Haddiths (not Qur'an) to work out a calculation of how to provide a fair taxation system to ensure that non-Muslims paid as much as the Muslims did since they do not have to pay Zakat and other obligitory alms.
I find it also really stupid or ignorant to think that non-Muslims live poorly in Mulim lands. I guess if you think that the entire world is Sudan or the mountains of Pakistan then you may think so but that would also say much about your understanding of geography and the world in general. The reality is of course something else. Apart from the life of many westerners living in countries that they get great benefits from (Morocco, Tunisia, UAE etc), I presume the question is about locals who are not Muslims. Morocco as mentioned above has a large Jewish population who chose not to migrate it Israel. It would be correct to argue that Copts in Egypt live their lives just fine with a significantly higher level educated and public service in government. A former foriegn minister who later became Sec Gen of the United Nations amongst them (Bhuttros Ghali). Jews and Christians in Tunis are the same, Algeria has a pretty large Christian population mostly in Oran, the Hindu Balinese are there and even though you here of many horrible cases say in Indonesia, it is still a minority. Malaysia has both a Hindu Indian and Buddhist/Christian Chinese population - that country thrives on its multiculturalism and has Sharia courts - for Muslims, the others go to secular courts - if you consider that discrimination.
Of course some who are perhaps showing anal-intentive agenda - you will ignore the reality of most Muslim life and concentrate on the sad and terrible cases only.
Ah, another rant by the fantastic, all-knowing Solkhar at the mere mention of Geert Wilders' name. How predictable!
Sadly for Solkhar, every assertion he makes about Geert Wilders is tainted by his earlier attempt to substantiate his allegations - Solkhar was caught trying to shore up his smears by lying about his own religion.
The whoppers just keep on coming from Solkhar. Guess he believes that chap who recommended that if you're going to lie, lie big:
"only those so-called theocracies, ie Iran and I guess a few districts in Somalia are non-Muslims actually discriminated".
This is so patently ridiculous a statement that it insults everyone's intelligence and would be a waste of time correcting the shameless author. This isn't even takiya 101. It's grade school level magical thinking "I want it to be so, it must be so".
Either he's never left his armchair despite the world diplomat he claims to be or he lives in denial.
And this is the man who presumes to lecture us.
Poor Laine must have soiled himself when he thought he found something - but he yet again has to be dissapointed.
The phrase is in response to your incorrect statement - so I will explain it in full for you.
As for constitutions and laws that discriminate - probably the two and I further explained it later on - to David I think - to ensure it was understood.
Kenny obviously is a fan Nick who enjoys playing grammatical games to ensure he looks intelligent on the Frozen North.
Go ahead all and study the Frozen North site - I obviously rattled his cage so much that he now has to write articles about me which I find flattering considering that he picks purely on my language style as cause for argument rather than substance - and to top it off - English is not my first (or infact second) language.
Want to discuss Wilders? - Kenny does that possibly mean that your some supporter? I find that rather funny, a border-line criminal, dispised by just about everyone in his own country - his supporters jumped and celebrated that he will be prime minister because his vote jumped 1.2 per cent earlier this year - to 8.2 - as if a take over requires that much.... go ahead Kenny - give us your case!
Check solkhar.blogspot.com - he is in there.
So is it true that you lied about your own religion in an attempt to smear him?
It's all right Solkhar, you don't have to answer that. Check out The Lambeth Walk and The Frozen North. You're in there.
No I do not have to answer that because it does not make sense and begs the question why it was said at all.
I think the Nick ravings on The Frozen North should be read, somehow Nick argues that the late Professor W.M.Watt makes a good criticism of Islam when he probably is the foremost non-Muslim scholars on Islam that most Muslim Scholars accept. So Nick should have noted about Watt that:
"His books have done much to emphasize the Prophet’s commitment to social justice; Watt has described him as being like an Old Testament prophet, who came to restore fair dealing and belief in one God to the Arabs, for whom these were or had become irrelevant concepts. This would not be a sufficiently high estimate of his worth for most Muslims, but it’s a start. Frankly, it’s hard for Christians to say affirmative things about a religion like Islam that postdates their own, which they are brought up to believe contains all things necessary for salvation."
Also that "Watt believed that the Qur'an was divinely inspired, though not infallibly true..."
All is easily available on wiki or the like.
It certainly knows that The Frozen North loves to say lots of things without actually saying anything of real substance.
And anyone reading those posts on The Frozen North can see that "Nick" (i.e. me) simply applied basic logical principles to what you had said, and if that ended up with you looking less intelligent than me, well, there you go.
If you believe that any of the arguments put forward on The Frozen North about your lying about Islam in order to smear someone are incorrect, then try to put forward your own argument demonstrating that.
If you believe that anything said on The Frozen North about what you had said on your own blog about the owner of The Lambeth Walk is incorrect, then try to put forward your own argument demonstrating that.
If you think there are any logical problems with my analysis of what you said in the opening paragraph of your first comment on the "Lambeth Walk" thread, then try to put forward an argument showing that.
If you can't do any of those things, then those arguments on The Frozen North stand against you, now and forever, and anything else you say about the person who put those arguments together, the owner of The Lambeth Walk, or about Geert Wilders, only serve to make you look even more unintelligent than you already do.
No I do not have to answer that - Solkhar.
Oh,go on: Is it true that you lied about your own religion in order to smear Geert Wilders?
You're a funny guy, Solkhar.
You make assertions about Geert Wilders citing the Koran, you make assertions about a particular passage in the Koran - and "Nick" uses one of the foremost non-Muslim scholars of Islam that Muslim scholars accept to show that what you had said was wrong, and somehow in your twisted thinking that's not perfectly good practice?
Man, you're a real hoot! Keep it up!
It is Solkhar who soils any argument he touches in an attempt to obfuscate.
"As for constitutions and laws that discriminate - probably the two and I further explained it later on - to David I think - to ensure it was understood".
Those weren't agreed upon parameters of the discussion at all. You chose them to narrow down the discussion to a meaningless definition of discrimination and even there you lie. There are all kinds of laws that discriminate against non-Muslims in Muslim countries.
By any western definition of discrimination, ALL MUSLIM STATES DISCRIMINATE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS IN WAYS THAT NO WESTERN COUNTRY DISCRIMINATES AGAINST MUSLIMS.
THAT'S THE CRITERION you mangler of the obvious.
You're not even good at takiya. Can't they send someone better?
I've quoted you and linked to you here: Re: "Killing the Golden Goose"
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