Our Swedish correspondent Henrik W. has translated an article from today’s
180Grader (Danish), which informs us about principals of Arab-dominated schools in Denmark who warn Jewish children to stay away:
Jewish children must stay away from schools with many Arab students
“There’s plenty of aggression in the air,” a school leader says about the Arab pupils who would give Jewish students a hard time if they dared to enter the school.
Yesterday Humlehave School in Vollsmose made it known that it wants to dissuade Jewish children from attending the school on account of the many Arab children who attend it. Now two other schools with many Arab children have announced the same thing in Jyllands-Posten.
“I don’t have anything against it, but I would not advise Jewish parents to send their children here. The well-being of the children must come first. We have a large group of Palestinian students, and, particularly at this time, there’s plenty of aggression in the air,” says Lise Egholm, principal of the Rådmandsgade School in Nørrebro, Copenhagen, to the newspaper.
Her colleague at the Klostervængets School, in Nørrebro, Karen-Margrethe Grønlund has the same message:
“There is no doubt that a Jewish child would be bullied and have a hard time at our school.”
- - - - - - - - -
In Århus, the schools don’t plan on recommending that Jewish children use other schools.
“We must defend the openness that we have, and work with the mutual understanding of the children. You can’t do that if it means beginning to say no to some pupils,” says Anne Graah, principal of Skjoldhøjskolen.
According to Chief Rabbi Bent Lexner the question is entirely theoretical. Jewish parents simply keep their children away from Arab-dominated schools.
“In reality, of course Jewish parents don’t send their children to school in, for instance, Nørrebro. They simply choose another school. But for democracy, it’s a problem”, Bent Lexner says to Jyllands-Posten.
He is, however, often sought out by parents who ask for advice about which high schools their children should avoid.
43 comments:
Ahh, how silly of me to think that it was a duty of schoolteachers to ensure the safety of schoolchildren. How intelligent of these principles to dump such responsibilities on parents. Well here is a prediction for all the non-Jews. What happens first to Jews will be shared by their children later. So unless they are ready to give up on sending their own kids to public schools, there has to be a strong rejection of this insane cowardice. How dare they! If these principles fear violent arabs in the class, then send them home or place an armed police officer in each class. Tell the world they will not tolerate such violence. Insead they reward it and consequently legitimize and perpetuate it.
Parents are responsible for their children's safety.
They should be required to take shifts showing up armed in school to prevent their children from being harmed, if the state will not protect them.
kbarrett is wrong. It is the responsibility of the school to maintain a safe environment for all students. Fighting and bullying should not be tolerated. The instigators should be suspended/expelled. Parents need to insure, since they are paying for the school to educate their children, that the school takes appropriate action to end threatening actions by one group of students against another. The idea that parents should be expected to arrive at school armed in order to protect their children is ridiculous.
London too
http://www.thelondondailynews.com/london-jews-under-attack-p-2095.html?osCsid=f1189c42e85a6a20ccda6b2058c7c3ff
I bet the teachers are afraid and have been bullied themselves.
It is time to send these haters backing back to another continent....and not mine.
Sorry.....
It is time to send these haters 'packing' back to another continent....and not mine.
To a certain extent, this just makes Danes more honest than their European counterparts. In practice, school authorities all over the continent already advise Jewish parents to keep their children away from "zone" schools. But you will certainly not find anybody who'll admit to that in the UK, the Netherlands, France or Sweden...
Of course it's a total capitulation before the forces of primitivism. In multiculturalist Europe, what else is new?
Nation building takes place in the schools...but infidels bowing, Jews kept out - the islamic society is in making.
Clearly this is the time to deport those who revert our rules.
Whats the problem? Everyone knows there is no Islam problem in Europe and that their numbers are too small to cause a problem! This is just more right wing Nazi nonsense trying to blow this out of proportion.
The dhimmitude is growing day for day. Our politicians are commiting high treason in front of our very eyes and they will get away with it too.
"There’s plenty of aggression in the air.
(...) I don’t have anything against it, but I would not advise Jewish parents to send their children here."
It may look bad but let's face it. If the air is that heavy, to aloud Jewish children to share the same space with muslim thugs is not a good idea and must be prevented if possible. After all, "The well-being of the children must come first." Or so it should...
If the Jews are a minotity when compared to muslims, it is good sense highlight the danger.
It is noticed however how society gets a cold when "minorities" open a window.
Ex Dissident,
"Well here is a prediction for all the non-Jews. What happens first to Jews will be shared by their children later. So unless they are ready to give up on sending their own kids to public schools, there has to be a strong rejection of this insane cowardice."
And you think that only happens to Jews hmm? In case you haven't notice Jews are being targeted because they are repetadly killing Palestinians, that is, Arabs, that is, muslims for 50 years... that makes the muslim rage somehow understanding, don't you think?
But Europeans... Danes, Serbians, whatever, those are "targeted" by "ethnic minorities" in their lands without apparent reason, at least, they are not attacking "ethnic minorities" for long... do you want some stats that Europeans are targeted more than Jews... in Europe and all over the world... and it's rather rare for the TV cameras to show up just because the victim is European...
Anyway, when you speak of "insane cowardices" you should have had the perspicacity to notice that things like this happen to Jews because the society has aloud for it (violence and suff) to happen against "the European majority" first.
So, your little prediction is a little nonesensical... and unless you live in Israel - where I believe there are not many non Jews - it is difficult to understand your belief that the poor Jews are always the ones to suffer first, like canaries in coal mines or something... I think to say that nowadays is even offensive.
"Jews are being targeted because... "
Uh huh.
A single question is central to understanding the conflict between Israel and "the Palestinian people": Do non-Muslim peoples have the right to sovereignty? The answer is "No, not in mainstream Islamic thought." So the Israelis need to emphasize an Arabic term in talking among themselves and to their allies: "darura"; that is, "necessity."
The word is used in Islamic religious thought. For example, a believing Muslim can purchase a home with an interest-bearing mortgage only in a dire situation: only in the case of "darura." Similarly, to the folks in Hamas, the jihad can be suspended only under conditions of darura; and then, only for a time.
Here is a pithy 2009 article that says much the same:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGVhYjVlNGMxNWQ2MjYzNGZiNzg2MGYxNGE5NjU4NjI=
Afonso,
Are you saying it's alright for Muslims to rage against Jews and Jews should not have any legal recourse?
It sounds like it.
It also sounds like you are saying that it's alright for Jews who live a thousand miles (give or take) away from Israel to suffer for what Jews in Israel are doing.
I'm sure you wouldn't think it was alright for Muslims in the U.S. to be suffering for what the Muslims in Afghanistan are doing.
Spinoneone,
It is the responsibility of the school to maintain a safe environment for all students. Fighting and bullying should not be tolerated.
I agree! In our town, the bullies are suspended, after an investigation, with only one offense. Parents are asked if they would like to press charges with the police and bullies are identified as bullies. It's up to them to change, not to everyone else to accommodate them.
The message it sends to a community when a "minority" that is not causing any trouble themselves - no harm or disruptive behavior - is one of legitimized exclusion based on public fear, race and faith. Everything the PC crowd has so loudly preached against.
Weakness through and through.
This story makes me physically ill, and Afonso makes me think that Iberia still reacts to Jihad by throwing the Jewish baby out with the Muslim bathwater. You learned nothing in 517 years.
Abraham,
I do not agree with Afonso as regards Israel. He is very wrong.
However I think there are misunderstandings about why Europeans in general are sceptical of Israel's right to self-defense and will try to explain.
I think that the situation in Israel is often seen, wrongly, as a matter of injustice.
One of the most useless pro-Israel arguments is the oft-repeated one that Israel produces many Nobel prize winning scientists and therefore people should support Israel for that reason. But as Caroline Glick has said, people in general will not care about such things if their basic misgiving about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is that the Palestinians are being treated unjustly.
Now a particularly erroneous counter-argument to this is that Europeans are ill-disposed towards Jews for genetic reasons (which cannot be true or else European-Americans, sharing their DNA, would be the same) or that they (we) are atavistic, bloodthirsty savages who get pleasure of the deaths of innocent people.
The latter view is a permanent feature of the (American-orientated) conservative blogosphere in general and quite popular on this blog. However if this were true then it would make media indoctrination superfluous. CNN, BBC and the New York Times would be wasting their time in their tireless efforts to convince that Israel is in the wrong.
In reality the world (Communist-infiltrated) media spin lie after lie because they hope to convince everyone that the Palestinians are being unjustly persecuted. It is precisely because most people want to be moral, want to be good, that this propaganda effort is so effective.
"Iberia" has naught to do with it.
The alternate theory - that Europeans are in thrall to a kind of mad, unceasing bloodlust that totally permeates their being is a very poor explanation. I doubt you believe that or you would not have engaged Afonso at all.
Some commenters here are too busy playing with their Panzerdivisions and baying "Judenrein" at the moon to engage in a serious discussion on the cause of anti-Israel sentiment in Europe but I trust you are not in this camp.
The Islamorealists among us will recall that Arab armies took the area now returned to Israel by force from the Byzantine Empire at the Battle of Yarmuk in 638AD, or thereabouts. The inhabitants had a choice: convert, be enslaved, or die. Most converted; some paid jizya. The majority rapidly "Islamized."
Fast forward to 1947. The UN declared Israel a state on 5/14/47. Five Arab armies immediately invaded. The Israelis won; many Europeans were astounded and disappointed, the recent evidence of the Holacast not withstanding. However, Europeans still believed that territory won by war became the victor's, and acquiesced both to Israel and the realignment of Europe's borders/peoples.
Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Jews in the Arab world. Most of today's European peoples and media seem to agree. Israel should tell them all to go jump into the Med - or, alternatively, go ahead and convert to Islam. Most of the Europeans don't profess a religion any more anyhow.
Spinoneone,
Fast forward to 1947. The UN declared Israel a state on 5/14/47. Five Arab armies immediately invaded. The Israelis won; many Europeans were astounded and disappointed, the recent evidence of the Holacast not withstanding.
What are your sources? How do you know that "many" (how many?) Europeans were astounded and disappointed at the creation of Israel?
The Arabs are saying that violence would most likely occur by Arabs attacking Jews. This war is on many levels. Our enemy is willing to take it to the schools.
This is one of the more important reasons for waging offensive warfare.
I'll bet that these schools have policies that state their commitment to providing a safe and positive environment for all.
It's the standard PC leftard doctrine.
It's just that when they actually have to do something other than bully well meaning parents or their unfortunate offspring .... well ... it's just too much to expect.
Europeans, Canadians, Americans, etc. might as well just throw in the towel, because when people are afraid of the children of these Muslim nutjobs, then we really can't sink any lower or become any more cowardly. We are going to have to fight the good fight sooner or later; we might as well start putting our foot - this is all too absurd for words.
"...we might as well start putting our foot 'down'...."
Achristiandilemma,
"Are you saying it's alright for Muslims to rage against Jews and Jews should not have any legal recourse?"
No, I never said that. I just said that rage is comprehensible. It is indeed understanding.
"It sounds like it."
Pff...
"you are saying that it's alright for Jews who live a thousand miles (give or take) away from Israel to suffer for what Jews in Israel are doing."
No, but is understanding that muslims see a Jew when they see a Jew, does not matter if it is here or in the other side of the world.
"I'm sure you wouldn't think it was alright for Muslims in the U.S. to be suffering for what the Muslims in Afghanistan are doing."
One situation has nothing to due with the other. Are you serious? You cannot understand the "Palestinian cause"? Do you hate islam that much??? Most people in America who support Israel, apearently support it for two reasons:
1) They are Jews themselves;
2) Jews are always the poor victims because of the Holocaust and as such, Europeans are to blame and as such the Jews must be supported... because they are the good ones.
(This philosemitism is as nonesensical and destructive as the usually comdemned irrational anti-Semitism)
None of the above fits for me. I wonder WHY you support Israel... Especially if you think the Palestinian Arab population has no excuse to be mad with the Jews...
Now that I read your nick, the way some people see Jews is really derived from AChristianDilemma...
Islamophobe, I think you're pratically the only one writting constructively in this comment's section. However I get disappointed when you say "I do not agree with Afonso as regards Israel. He is very wrong." What is it that you do not agree? I hardly spoke about Israel at all...
What appalls me here is the semi-divine status of the Jews ever since the II World War.
And you can read in the great comments of the ones like Abraham and Spinoneone that although the trouble is between the Semitic Jews and Arabs in the Middle East, the fault is somehow of Europe and Europeans...
What does Europe have to due with it? We offered the Jews great conditions to live in all European Nations where they did prosper, after the Second World War the British (EUROPEANS) gave them that strip of land that today is Israel... I don't know what the hell do they want Europeans to do... it appears that some people want Europe, pardon me, The West to secure the right os Israel to exist above all. Why Israel? Why not, say Tibet? Why did the Timorese had to wait 25 years?
I don't think the Nation X, Y or Z has the absolute duty of being Israel's German Shepard.
" However I think there are misunderstandings about why Europeans in general are sceptical of Israel's right to self-defense and will try to explain."
It is simple, Europeans do not like to see dead children at the dinner table. If you regularly put dead children at the dinner table with the mensage "Israel did it", Europeans will become anti Israel. It does not need much explanation; if Israelis were white or Africans or Asians, that would be easily understandable, but because they are Jews, we must come out with lunatic theories of "anti-Semitism".
Add to that the general anti-white sentiment in European societies and the fact that Jews are somewhat more Europeans and white when compared to third world Palestinian Arabs which gives us the illusion(?) that Israel is part of European Civilisation.
- Nobody gave the Serbs the warm love and understanding they are always giving to the Jews -
Of course, add to that the factor of "desproportionate response" or "injustice". When you see a Palestinian throwing a rock to a Jewish tank, you will notice the disparity of resources and feel "fascinated" by the poor, weak but brave Palestinian, opressed by all the forces of evil that a big tank represents...
"Now a particularly erroneous counter-argument to this is that Europeans are ill-disposed towards Jews for genetic reasons (which cannot be true or else European-Americans, sharing their DNA, would be the same) or that they (we) are atavistic, bloodthirsty savages who get pleasure of the deaths of innocent people."
... innocent Jewish people. That is what outrages me the most. And it is this little Semitic feeling and world view that I despize the most. I don't know how people who fall in this hole can consider themselves to be "right wing" in any European Nation (including those out of Europe). I'd really like some explanation/justification for the semi-divine status of Jews.
I am not Jewish. I do not support Israel because I beleive them to be victims. I support them because they are much more like us than Muslims.
I dislike Islam because of many of the 'authentic' laws of the Koran and the behavior of Muslims worldwide.
Many issues are worth waging war over. Most wars only need one or two good basic issues to begin and make worth the destruction and waste that is inherent in all wars. Islam has many more than this, which helps explain the constant violence throughout the Islamic world. That in and of itself is worth waging war to put to an end. Particularly when considering how WMD will eventually be used.
Afonso --
I see your point, and it is a good one. Jews are an ethnic group, and Israel is the nation of the Jews. Why should they be different from, say, Armenians? After what happened in 1915, we would have just as much reason to protect the Armenian nation and be vigilant against anti-Armenianism in countries where Armenians are in the minority.
But there is ONE major difference, and that is anti-Semitism itself. The Jews -- who are a tiny minority in the world -- engender vast and virulent hatred, which far exceeds in its intensity and worldwide distribution the hatred of any other ethnic group. You won't find mobs in Karachi or San Francisco shouting "Death to the Armenians!"
So the Jews are special, in the sense that they are especially and irrationally hated the world over, and that no other ethnic group has to face that level of hatred.
Not even the Portuguese. ;)
Palestinian is a term from and after 1967 so not 50 years.
If Palestinians have been killed for that period it is because those people in the Elite of Arab society that care only of their Petroleum and private Business.
It means Arab Elite wants war, in fact they attacked Israel in fully declared WARS 5 times and 5 times ISRAEL won.
It is not casualty, NASSER was a fully irresponsible person that still sending people to war even the war ends.
Many ARAB Politicians just want Arabs become victims so they can control PETROLEUM, and business in the area.
Arab Elite are not one, same reason every of those families make their own paratroops and their own religion over the only ONE, Allah.
Those families are not friend among them, Hamas, Fatah, etc are all enemies each other. But they say ISRAEL is the problem.
Well is exactly the opposite, Israel becomes the perfect excuse to continue utilizing their own people with NO SALARY to combat their wars.
It is a cyclic problem because Those Families are the ones who sponsor Hospitals, and Schools, but NOT SURPRISE for anyone, THOSE ARAB ELITE FAMILIES do never sponsor superior education, not UNIVERSITIES, guess why????
THEY need young soldiers that has They have nothing to lose.
ALEX of COSTA RICA
The only country with no war and no army has written this article.
Joe Six Pack,
"I support them because they are much more like us than Muslims.
I dislike Islam..."
Great! No, really, great that you do.
However, I do not believe that because we dislike some underdeveloped barbaric tribes that we should automatically support another tribe to wage a war on them. This being said, the same is valid for the other side; the fact that one tribe has more in common with us than another does not legitimate the first tribe to wage a war on the second one.
If you want to be "fair", I think those points you presented are not reasons to *support* Israel in a war against Palestinian Arabs; those are only valid and very good reasons for you to prefer Israel to the Arabs, for you to nurture more sympathies towards Isrel than towards the Arabs.
I support the right of Israel to exist because Jews have the right to their own "fatherland" and they have already shown they diserve it. Another thing that Jews have showed is that it is not a good idea to not have a homeland at all.
Also, another reason for me to support Israel's right to exist is that the process of the Jewish colonisation of Israel was pretty "clean". Then, its neighbours did not think it was a good idea to let Israel live but notwhithstanding Israel prevailed in a (several) "just" war(s) for it's survival. So, I think Israel has the right to exist because of all this. There is a people conected to a land and a people who have fought hard for its land and culture. That is why I support Israel.
Unfortunetley, this offensive has little to due with "Israel's right to exist" and that is why I am neutral on this. But my impression is that many people here support Israel for the wrong causes, and that "semi-divinity" of the Jews really is scarry. Especially because the Jews are... well... Jews...
Baron,
Thanks! I feel less lonely now that someone understands me here...
But Baron, I don't know if we can compare Jews to Armenians and Portuguese for many reasons I can highlight if you want.
The Jews have been wondering in other people's Nations. That and some favoritism towards the Jews eraged the very different peoples that once harboured the Jews. We can compare the Jews to people who have behaved somewhat similarly like... the Gypsies. And I think most can argue that the Gypsies also have (been having) had a hard time like Jews.
So, I am not so certain of the existance of Anti-Semitism. It's like... you see... some say white people are racists because Europeans enslaved black Africans. I think no one putted themselves in the position to be enslaved in mass like black Africans did. And, that would happen even to highly Civilised people like the Chinese or Japonese if, read if, they had behaved like black Africans.
So, we should, should not, we must try to find the roots of Anti Semitism and I believe that we should even defy the very existance of anti Semitism as pure hatred of Jews.
I've looked for information on the treatment of Jews and Gypsies here and in Spain, which is pratically the same with the exception of Andaluzia. Jews were prefered as diplomats and "burguoise" (they were pratically the only ones to mannage money), the gypsies were barely aloud to grow their own food. While entire sectors of towns were built to the Jewish community (judiarias) though the Jews were forbidden to get out of there without license; the Gypsies were ordered to be killed if they stayed in some areas for more than five days and were not aloud to enter in the majority of the villages...
In Andaluzia the gypsies prospered because there was a great muslim population and after the expulsion of the muslims, many muslims found a safe port in gypsy acampaments.
My entire point however is that some people are supporting the Jews and Israel for very dubious reasons, some of them derived from a scary mindset where the Jews are putted in a semi-divinity status. And some are even obtuse to the point that they cannot see any motif for the Palestinians to get mad with the Jews, for instance. If you were to make a thread so that people could expose reasons to support Israel, I fear that thread would be very empty or filled with not so good to nonesensical reasons.
Afonso,
No, I never said that. I just said that rage is comprehensible. It is indeed understanding.
OK, that's why I asked. There can always be a sender/receiver problem in communicating and I was trying to figure out where you were coming from.
You've explained yourself in your responses to Baron and Joe Six Pack and I agree with much of what you say.
To be clear on my end:
I support Israel for the same reason you do. They should have a homeland.
I do not hate Muslims, but I do hate what fundamentalists in any religion can do. Islam doesn't have any "outs" to being a fundamentalist, so I think it is one of the most destructive belief systems - not because I hate it, but because of the outcome of being faithful.
Baron said:
So the Jews are special, in the sense that they are especially and irrationally hated the world over, and that no other ethnic group has to face that level of hatred.
Yes, yes, yes. Afonso, I don't see Jews as having divine status and I do think some criticism of some Jews is legitimate. Every group has its quirks and the Jews are not excluded. BUT, I would also not compare Jews to Gypsies because, having had personal experience with both, they do not behave in any manner alike.
Yes, the Jews have been wandering, but not for lack of wanting to settle. They lost their homeland. Since then, everyone wants the gifts they bring (they have consistently been an asset to the countries they inhabit and a good reading of Jewish history will tell you that), but when things get tough, they point their finger at the Jew. The Gypsies have not been an asset. I do not hate Gypsies either, but history (and personal experience for 9 years) show that as a group they did not add to their surrounding community, but quite the opposite.
I'd like to address this comment, and questions, you made:
One situation has nothing to due with the other. Are you serious? You cannot understand the "Palestinian cause"? Do you hate islam that much??? Most people in America who support Israel, apearently support it for two reasons:
1) They are Jews themselves;
2) Jews are always the poor victims because of the Holocaust and as such, Europeans are to blame and as such the Jews must be supported... because they are the good ones.
You are right about the first statement, the situations are different. My point was that it is pointless for Muslims to be acting out against Jews in other areas of the world period.
Yes, I understand the plight of the Palestinians.
I understand the source of the anger in Muslims around the world. The same thing was done to them after 911 - random hate crimes increased dramatically, but understanding it doesn't make it a viable course of action in a society trying to be civil with one another. Instead of understanding, pressure needs to be put on the Muslims to behave according to the Western standards, just as those who committed crimes against Muslims after 911 were treated in accordance with the law - even if the judge and jury understood.
Your understanding of why Americans support Israel is interesting. You may be right about those, but my experience is that most Americans who support Israel do so because it is recognized as a country and because our country was instrumental, whether right or wrong, in establishing it as such, we have a responsibility to help protect and defend it against those whose sole purpose is the annihilate it. Tibet is a totally different story. :)
(I am trying to get used to this WP thing coming from Blogger so my name keeps changing with log in attempts...from now on I'm using Blogger and my name will appear as Jennifer - sorry for any confusion!)
joe six-pack: Many issues are worth waging war over. Most wars only need one or two good basic issues to begin and make worth the destruction and waste that is inherent in all wars. Islam has many more than this, which helps explain the constant violence throughout the Islamic world. That in and of itself is worth waging war to put to an end. Particularly when considering how WMD will eventually be used.
The foregoing is as good of a summation as one can hope for. It is of particular import to note how the sheer existence of WMDs makes this entire issue one of the very greatest urgency.
The basic nature of Islam reflects a total lack of hesitation in using WMDs. Mired in its cultural relativism, the West simply cannot conceive of an ideology so predisposed towards slaughter and genocide in the way that Islam is.
The inability of Muslim nations to manufacture large quantities of atomic weapons almost automatically implies that Islam will somehow manage to trigger nuclear retaliation against itself.
The "slow jihad" of demographic displacement simply will not be rapid enough to suit the tastes of Islam's many ultra-violent components. It is these same violence prone types that will also seek out and obtain WMDs in whatever quantity to use against the West. They will sow the nuclear wind and Islam will reap the Muslim holocaust.
Islam's essential doctrine and the inaction of Western politicians with respect to decapitating jihadist leadership literally assure that a far more lethal and devastating outcome awaits us. While Western inaction is reprehensible, it must never be forgotten that Islam alone is responsible for its own violence and intolerance.
This is why Islam cannot be allowed to exist in a civilized world.
Well Jennifer, what to say? You're name sounds much better now and I agree with virtually everything you pointed out in your first comment as Jennifer.
My entire point however is that some people are supporting the Jews and Israel for very dubious reasons, some of them derived from a scary mindset where the Jews are putted in a semi-divinity status.
Honestly, pragmatically and perhaps cynically speaking, the main reason for which I support Israel is that, having a homeland, the Jews don't live in large numbers in the European nations and they have a space on their own. European history, since the Greeks and the Romans (the first pogroms took place long before Christianity, in the Hellenistic world), teaches us one lesson in this respect: that whenever Jews have strong communities in Gentile nations, the mutual resentments become unavoidable and sometimes with tragic consequences.
The Jews give many assets to their host countries, but at least an equal amount of troubles. One of the unfortunate consequences is a reciprocal jealousy and envy. The Jews, being often more versatile, on average, than the natives, will become objects of hate, particularly in times of crisis. In their turn, many Jews are aware that no matter how much they try, they won't be an intrinsic part of a nation, which is first of all a spiritual unity, in spite of the modern concept of the social contract as the foundation of a state. They can be good citizens, but not part of a people attached to a common land, language, ethnicity, history and religion. Realizing this, the resentments against the host nations will lead many of them to revolutionary leftist anti-national movements, as we can see in many situations, from the Bolshevik Revolution to the 60s movements in Europe and the US, not mentioning the tendency of the majority of the Jewish organizations, lobbies and associations - from ADL to the World Jewish Congress - to align themselves with the minorities, including the Muslims, on the expense of the ethnic majority. Yes, many individual Jews can be loyal to their countries or patriotic: but they organizations and group interests, for the very reason that they are built on minority premises, are not.
So, not only that Israel is a good idea, but in my opinion it should have been created and encouraged earlier, by the end of the XIXth century, since the first Zionist organized movements. Such a lack of vision and intuition of the XIXth century's European leaders is infuriating. Some tragic events of the XXth century would have been surely avoided by the creation of a Jewish state as early as possible.
The first Zionists were equally pragmatic regarding the creation of Israel. I trust people who act for their own interest and survival, and not out of love or hate, admiration or contempt.
That's why I support Israel for pragmatic reasons. The most pragmatic in this regard was Theodor Herzl himself, the father of the Zionist movement. First, he understood the incompatibility between the Jews and the Gentiles and the illusion of making them live peacefully together. And he came with the idea of creating a Jewish state exactly to make mutual respect possible. Sometimes distance is better for both parties involved.
Armance, I think you've summed up the need for a Jewish state very well. Jews and non-Jews don't inhabit a nation-state comfortably together. BTW, the tendency of too many diaspora Jews to be liberal and subversive isn't deliberate, I think it's mostly unconscious. People who don't have their own space don't respect others' space. With far left Jews, it's conscious and explicit, but with liberal Jews, they just act out without knowing the real cause.
I'd add, though, that no matter how well Israel does militarily, it will always be surrounded by hostile Arabs. The Arabs, as a whole, will never accept Jews living next door to them. This is why I think the original Zionists made a mistake in returning to the Middle East. They knew, even then, the Arabs didn't want them there, but wishful thinking made them rationalize that eventually, the Arabs would change their position. They never have.
Why should we be stuck with this impossible situation? Smart Israelis are voting with their feet and moving to the US. It's not unsupportive of me to say that the Jewish people would do well to shop around for some other land for a safer and more prosperous state. West Sahara looks sort of available. I support Israel unconditionally in this current military action and all others, but I feel even the friends of the Jewish people on this blog are setting the bar too high. Maybe there's really no point in this constant war, if there is some way to separate peoples who will never get along. This isn't merely my fantasy, Israelis themselves are leaving.
I hope the Jewish people will create something better, before we lose everything.
I'd add, though, that no matter how well Israel does militarily, it will always be surrounded by hostile Arabs. The Arabs, as a whole, will never accept Jews living next door to them. This is why I think the original Zionists made a mistake in returning to the Middle East.
That's why we need much more support for Israel. I don't give a damn about the Arabs. There are dozens and dozens of millions of them, from Gaza to Paris, with tons of children per family, yet they make a global noise about a small portion of land which they would trash in a few years if they occupied it anyway. If the Westerners - from Washington to Moscow - were not such wussies and blinded, the hostile ones would be transformed into lambs on the spot.
I don't think the place of Israel is a bad idea, the only problem is the political order in which we live, that condemns as to bootlick some savages and take their wishes as honorable. If we go back in time, the so-called Muslim Palestinians themselves stole that land from other populations whom they exterminated or forced to convert. What the heck? In normal circumstances, I wouldn't even discuss the existence of Israel: it's in our interest to exist so it should exist, period.
One of the reasons the Zionists chose that place was that it has a symbolic meaning for the Jewish people and thus they would feel more inclined to love and to defend it. So, I don't find the idea in itself bad at all, on the contrary. Besides, in Africa the new state would be surrounded by Africans, many of them Muslims also (and even the non-Muslims are not a good choice to live near). Think about the white farmers in Zimbabwe or South Africa. These people are able to cross the whole Sahara in summertime just to loot and kill. Coming to think of it, no place is completely safe, especially nowadays.
The problem is not the place of Israel, but the international political circumstances. One more reason to change them.
The location of Israel is only essential for religious Jews. The rest of us (the majority) can take it or leave it. Even Herzl said something like, the holy land is the Jewish people. (Not an accurate quote, but I'm on my way out the door and can't look it up now.) However, even he understood that it's not place but people that count.
The idea that the world should support us more is frankly a terrible idea. You're not in the US, so you don't see how much the White Nationalists, and I mean quite reasonable and mainstream ones, resent American soldiers being used as a support for Israel. They make up conspiracy theories that the neocons are all about supporting the Jewish agenda. It sure doesn't help that many neocons are in fact Jewish.
So it's best that Israel have an isolationist policy, because this involvement with America causes hostility, some of it justified. Also, the other side of this is that America sets Israeli policy. Why do you think that all of these little military actions have premature cease-fires where nothing is resolved? It's because America puts pressure on Israel to stop fighting as soon as some Palestinian kid gets killed. Jews can't fight back. It's theatre. We don't need any more of this "support."
As for Africa, it is actually safer than the ME. Africans may be hostile, but not in the special way Arabs are. And South Africa and Zim weren't defeated by blacks, but by their own white liberals. As long as a country has secure borders and a self-confident people, that doesn't have to happen. The South Africans gave their country away, and it didn't help that the US pressured them. The Israelis are in the process of giving their country away, for the same reasons: liberal guilt and American pressure.
Alex Schultz --
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Alex Schultz said...
Well that is a fact UN does not consider to Israel a country:
Israel is the only country in violation of the spirit of the Charter of the United Nations, not a full member of one of the five regional blocs - Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, Latin America and Western Europe and Others ( WEOG) - determining the eligibility for nomination to the key posts of the UN. While Israel achieved a breakthrough in 2000 and joined WEOG, their membership is limited to the headquarters in New York, and no other centre of the United Nations, and in turn is temporary and conditional.
Chavez possibly as many people in the world think ISRAEL is not a country, reason why Israel does not have the right of Sovereignty reason why is prohibited to execute that right and defence their Land.
Remember as happend in Lebannon, United Nations also think ISRAEL is not a country it is semi-country, just when UN need it for.
Originally, the control of South of Lebanon was given from Israel to United Nations as part of Peace Agreement, but that organisation of terror called United Nations is non-functional and completely negligent. WHY?
Well UN were in possession of controlling and patrolling the South of Lebanon, but curiously all buildings for that purpose were with NO ONE, I mean with no UN staff at all. It was the exact reason all attacks on Northern Israel were freely prepared with the sponsoring of the United Nations.
VENEZUELA:: and the particual right to self defence of a country, Well IS ISRAEL conider a country????
Mr Chavez said he had "no interest" in maintaining relations with Israel, whom he has accused of committing genocide.
link
Venezuela ordered the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador on Tuesday to protest Israel's military offensive in the Gaza Strip.
link
WOW!!!
I can remember same CHAVEZ supporting STRONGLY and firmly to ECUADOR for the Colombian intromission
saying that ALL COUNTRY must execute his RIGHT of Sovereignty and do all what it is needed to defence that right.
It is same CHAVEZ the one said that it’s true Venezuela got some new military equipment from Russia as well as nuclear submarines. He also added: Military weapons are of course to be used and if I [Chavez] need to defend Venezuela from any attack I will use that military equipment.
-ALEX
I am not a Jew, I am not a gentile. Rabbis and other Jews are friend of mine.
Costa Rica, my country with no army and no much of money is particularly the second country in Latin America with lot of Jew influence, in fact we have a neighbourhood specially made with Synagogue and NOBODY cares, in fact there are Lebanese restaurants inside those areas that customers are 70% Jews.
In the beach we have New Jerusalem Project where a big portion of Land has been bought by Orthodox Israeli and... No problem they make good bread too and everybody buys from them.
We are also a country with no mesquite, and the Lebanese people here are all Catholics, reason why I think there is no big deal with the Jews. In fact some of them are awarded politicians or part of the economic system.
Well the fact is 'TICOS' how people call citizens of Costa Rica really do not care who you are and what religion you like to, not even what business you do or if you are good person or not.
Here the common capital is well regulated, well distributed, the social programmes depends only on a very socialism practice, and the businesses are quite well regulated in terms of taxes, and papers, just like Europe.
Well that is the other reason, we are not Europeans, even we know we are mostly white ones, we don't feel the necessity to feel we are white power or this or that, we really don't care.
Europeans are very egoistic, evil ones too, Americans are too moralists but too strict separating black from white, yellow from European descendant, English from French, Latino from black etc, etc.
Arabs are Arabs, and they follow supreme orders from their leaders, problem is that IRAN manipulates too much their soul, and all of you must remember that IRAN is not an Arab country, IRAN hates ARABS, but support war among Israel and Arabs, in fact they pay for all this party of no-sense.
In the old times ARABS lived together with the JEWS, even in SPAIN Arabs divided the main churches in 3 so Jews, Arabs and Christians pray together, exactly as we the TICOS do, like I DON'T CARE just go and pray.
Iran in fact is the big influence in the Middle East for this war, do you think is because the ARIAN RACE is Iranian and not German???
Afonso,
Communication is a great thing, I'm glad we got that all ironed out.
Latte Island,
So it's best that Israel have an isolationist policy, because this involvement with America causes hostility, some of it justified. Also, the other side of this is that America sets Israeli policy. Why do you think that all of these little military actions have premature cease-fires where nothing is resolved? It's because America puts pressure on Israel to stop fighting as soon as some Palestinian kid gets killed. Jews can't fight back. It's theatre. We don't need any more of this "support."
As an American I totally agree. I would like to see what happens when Israel makes its own decisions and acts on its own behalf. I do wonder, though, what the difference would be between support and alliance? It would seem that with demographic realities Israel would benefit from allies.
Would the situation in the EU be any different now if Israel didn't have the past support of Britain and the U.S.? Would it be better or worse or not matter?
The idea that the world should support us more is frankly a terrible idea. You're not in the US, so you don't see how much the White Nationalists, and I mean quite reasonable and mainstream ones, resent American soldiers being used as a support for Israel. They make up conspiracy theories that the neocons are all about supporting the Jewish agenda. It sure doesn't help that many neocons are in fact Jewish.
So it's best that Israel have an isolationist policy, because this involvement with America causes hostility, some of it justified. Also, the other side of this is that America sets Israeli policy. Why do you think that all of these little military actions have premature cease-fires where nothing is resolved? It's because America puts pressure on Israel to stop fighting as soon as some Palestinian kid gets killed. Jews can't fight back. It's theatre. We don't need any more of this "support."
Unfortunately (or not?) I think you are right.
The main problem with America is that it is completely confused and incoherent, on any subject they approach. The main power of the world acts like a drunkard. On one hand they spend billions to liberate Iraq, on the other hand they accept Sharia-inspired articles in the new Iraqi Constitution and are unable to defend the Iraqi religious minorities. On one hand they claim to fight religious fanaticism in Afghanistan, on the other hand they support the creation of Kosovo or the human rights of the Chechens. Not mentioning that the new great liberator of nations is unwilling to liberate itself from waves of Mexican immigrants. I don't say that Europe is more reasonable, but at least we don't have the military power to impose any stupidity might cross our minds on international affairs - even if we do our best. Gee, it looks like the Russians drink tons of vodka and the Americans get drunk.
When I was talking about more support for Israel, I was referring to a possible sane America and a sane Europe, with coherent goals on the international scene and knowing very well their interests. But I agree that for the time being it sounds like science fiction.
The location of Israel is only essential for religious Jews. The rest of us (the majority) can take it or leave it. Even Herzl said something like, the holy land is the Jewish people. (Not an accurate quote, but I'm on my way out the door and can't look it up now.) However, even he understood that it's not place but people that count.
It's true. However, talking about the spiritual dimension of the nations, I think that it is very important for a community to have a narrative, a founding story behind it (I don't care if it's true or not, as the postmodern thinkers trying to deconstruct the national myths. It's good enough if it works for collective self-confidence. I merely honor the gods of the city, not necessarily intimately believing in them). It's people that counts, but Israel already has 60 years of existence based on the narrative of the wandering Jews finally arriving in their ancient land. I think it's a very powerful story unifying both the religious and the non-religious Jews.
Jennifer, it is really so.
These thread originated a very interesting last conversation with a very good flow of ideas and, in my opinion, a very sane dose of reality. Unfortuneteley, it is getting out of fashion and I will cease to visit this as soon as it sweeps away from the Gates of Vienna main page. Thank you people! That's why I love this blog!
However Armance, you rule! Seriously, best phrase of 2009:
"it looks like the Russians drink tons of vodka and the Americans get drunk."
It looks like my new year eve: We drinking champagne and pouring down bottles of Vodka and the Vegetarian Hindu friend of ours is the one who gets drunk by tasting Pissangabon...
Man, you really must have a gift in English because I could not even come with that - and I second you with that sentence - in my very own Latin/Romance language, what about this strange Germanish thing people call Inglês.
"it looks like the Russians drink tons of vodka and the Americans get drunk."
And Obama is the "puke"! Armance, you're a poet!
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