The brief Interfax news article below doesn’t specify what the offensive art is, but I assume it refers to the photographs by Sooreh Hera, which are currently on display in Gouda. Ms. Hera is an Iranian expatriate who has created a series of photos of homosexual men wearing masks that depict the face of Mohammed. Her purpose is explicitly political, and is aimed at the despotic regimes in Iran and other parts of the Muslim world. According to Sugiero:
Our new brave woman, Iranian born artist Sooreh Hera, is decided to expose the hypocrisy regarding homosexuality and Islam. She says it is frequent that married muslim men have sexual relations with other men (she mentions specifically Iran and Saudi Arabia).
If you check out her pictures you’ll see that homosexuality is a major part of her work.
When she invited two Iranian men to pose they asked to wear a mask in order not to be recognized. The masks she chose were the ones you see in the pictures below: Muhammed and his son-in-law Ali.
Needless to say, the Muslim world is outraged. But now it seems that Russia is also weighing in on behalf of the Prophet. According to Interfax:
Moscow Alarmed by Exhibition of Prophet Muhammad Pictures in Netherlands- - - - - - - - -
Moscow, November 1, Interfax — Moscow is alarmed by an exhibition in the Dutch city of Gouda displaying what is sees as provocative pictures of the Prophet Muhammad and his followers.
“Russia harshly condemns this action and calls on all parties to refrain from steps that could complicate inter-civilizational accord,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement posted on its official website.
“In fact, this is a further attempt at a cartoon scandal, which has already blackened relations between the West and the Islamic world,” it said.
Hat tip: TB.
107 comments:
Hahaha - jealous of islamic mentoring. We get two warning fingers in one package.
"She says it is frequent that married muslim men have sexual relations with other men (she mentions specifically Iran and Saudi Arabia)."
This is common in macho cultures. It's probably the secret to pacifying them a well. Let them know your the biggest man on the block and they will go all sweet and feminine.
Any comments from Whiskey?
This time I really don't understand the Russians' mind. I mean, an official declaration from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs - when nobody has asked for such a declaration? And not aimed at hitting the US or the EU, but a small country with huge Islamic immigration problems as Holland and an Iranian apostate. Perhaps the reason is appeasing the political ally Iran - but the method is despicable. My very short time of trying to accept the new Russia is over. If the self-entitled "great power" is fighting an art exhibition, defending a religion that in not theirs, through an official statement, I guess they are now in the same rank with Brussels and Washington.
До свидания!
Afonso-
As the bully Nelson in The Simpsons says.
"Ha-Ha"
Crap :(
I think the Putin regime has one thing in common with Islam here: The lust for power.
But they don't need to do boot-licking in such appalling fashion.
A fast comment:
"This is common in macho cultures."
I don't know what you mean by macho cultures. Does italy/Spain/Portugal are included? If so it's a lie.
However I heard in an anti-islamic blog that in North African who penetrates a male is not gay, only the "more passive" homossexuals are considered gays. It also said that North Africans were gays behinde close doors. I thought it was just bashing them, and I still do... though the only muslim I've hapened to know is indeed gay.
"This time I really don't understand the Russians' mind."
"As the bully Nelson in The Simpsons says."
It is simple: Iran is our boy. They are protecting Iran against an indecent work. Big deal!
Spackle,
as Homer before strangling Bart:
"You little..."
"It is simple: Iran is our boy. They are protecting Iran against an indecent work. Big deal!"
Youre telling me that Iran is "Our boy" and that is no big deal? And that a piece of art against Islam is "indecent"? Come on Afonso, you have got to be kidding me? Are you that in the tank for Russia that anything is excusable? You have railed before against other countries clamping down on Fitna or the Motoons but Russia gets a pass? Come on man!
Let me re-phrase from clamping down to criticizing. Just admit that Russia is wrong on this one. It wont hurt. I promise you.
I guess that sentence of Afonso was directed to my comment, in the sense that "it's not a big deal to understand what's in the Russians' mind in this case". I hope so: otherwise the whole idea about protecting Iran against an indecent art work, taken literally, would be too absurd.
Ha, ha, ha!
They will save Europe from Islam!
Remember Lenin's Useful Idiots!
Ha, ha, ha!
after kosovo why not
Armance, Henrik
Their basic rule is being unpredictable. Even a little dog biting with no obvious reason gets lot of attention and respect. These guys always combine it with brute force, apathy and treason.
They are not licking boots, they just do something next time in totally opposite direction. Maybe they combine it with some other great deal - like refusing to sell toilet paper to the Iranians.
Do I like what the Russia say in this regard? No I dont, my personal views on islam is that Islam totaly hostile towards anythin un-islamic. If Russia trully felt European and had strong solidarity with Europe, then their actions would have been trully dispeakable. However if Russia sees Europe as a competitor, and not an ally, whom Russia doesnt trust to be inline with their interests, then...
I personally doubt that if Serbs for example made fun of Muhammad, Russia would have said anything against the serbs.
The other aspect of this is this: Russia has a sizable Muslim minority population, on to whom various aspects of Russian Culture as well as Cristianity are being slowly imposed on. Russia has to be carefull of how it keeps this people pro-russian. For instance if Russia said anything really unislamic, then these people inside Russia, and other Central Asian Republics would have thought that Russia is really against them and their culture.
So to summarise:
Russia doesnt see western europe as its friend, so what it does by defending muslim sensibilities in europe doesnt contradict its own project of demuslifying Russia.
This is not an Ideal World, In the Ideal World, the Non-Muslim World would unite to defend ourselfs against the islamic enemy, but do you expect that to happen if the people of europe think that america and Israel and Russia are bigger threat to world stability then the Islamic worl?
Russky:
You sound mean and callous: many on this forum worship Russia, they keep a picture of Putin and Czar Nicholas on their nightstand and waiting to be liberated by Ivan the terrible.
Russia doesnt see western europe as its friend, so what it does by defending muslim sensibilities in europe doesnt contradict its own project of demuslifying Russia.
The manner of action here was pathetic, ridiculous and unworthy of a country that pretends to be a power. Did the Muslim world ask them to protect their sensitivities? No, they did it by their own initiative, simply sucking up to the Mahommedans. It is as lame as the US trying to appease the Muslims by bombing a small defenseless country - Serbia. If they want to protect Iran as the older, more powerful brother, they should confront Western governments, not an artist from Holland. It's like an elephant harassing a fly.
Well, I should add: like an elephant scaring a fly for the satisfaction of a tiger.
Spackle,
"And that a piece of art against Islam is "indecent"?"
I am very relutant to consider that "art". It was simply provocative. Imagine if instead of Mohamed it was about Jesus, would you call it "art", then? I don't see why I should consider it art just because it is bashing muslims. Try to be a bit more neutral when it comes to Russia and also to islam. If I were a Dutch, I probabily would laugh about that because it is bashing muslims, but would certainly consider it "wrong" nonetheless.
And of course Spackle, Russia is wrong on this, that is beyond debatable. There's nothing to debate about it. But... why is it wrong?
In my view, it is wrong because Russia has nothing to put its nose on the Netherlands's internal affairs. Simple as that. Russia is not wrong on calling a pig a pig just because the pig happens to bash muslims. I also have to add, though, that, as Armance said it is also "too heavy": "It's like an elephant harassing a fly." Indeed. But that's not a big deal.
NATO (America plus the E.U.) was the one who destroyed Serbia and created both Bosnia and Kosovo. I don't see America defending Armenia from the muslims as well.
And armance, I don't think it is that absurd.
And about the "Iran is our boy" thing: That's how I really think the Russians see things. You see, America has been taunting the bear everywhere. Especially disgusting was to turn Ukraine against Russia. Much worst than that was what happened with Georgia. Russia's response?
Russia will be strenghtening his relations with anti-American States: Syria, Venezuela, Lybia, Iran stating something of the like: "if you don't start respecting us, we will help these boys." And from those boys, Iran is the big one, is the one who really is a stone on the American shoe. This is just a cry from Russia: "Look, you don't behave well so we may side with Iran." And as such it is not a big deal. Russia knows what she's doing and she is the last to want a nuclear Iran under its belly. Russia does this favour to Iran and kills two rabbits: It keeps the Iranians happy and scares the hell of the Europeans. The Iranian girl gets smached, big deal! The Serbian Nation was destroyed, that's a great, great deal. See the difference?
So, honestly Spackle, don't you agree with me?
"It keeps Iranians happy" This is non-sense. The Iranians are not mullahs. They are proWestern unlike your Russians.
I totally miss Russian outrage about the miserable condition of the Iranians versus some exhibition in Holland, probably some 100 m2. These Russians trust and respect only dictators.
This is highest degree of cynismus - absolutely devoid of any trace of humanity. No wonder Ukrainians want to be free from this robotic monstre. As for Russians in the East Ukraine - my guess is this is an absolute mix like in other industrial places - Ostrava/CZ, Košice/Slovakia. Heavy industry in Basque before Franco - immigrants diluted/ threatened local population, same for Sorbs in Germany (mining).
And the wife of Saakashvili is Dutch! This must be the Kremlin Court intrigue!
I got it. It is more than nasty.
Why the Russians target Holland?
Why Holland? To punish in islamic style via islam. Mind your weakpoints when you deal with Russia.
afonso h
Please don't take it personally but after having read your upside down twisted rant on behalf of the barbarian Russians, I am more than convinced that the European rotting is irreversible and I can hardly wait till Sarko will finish you off with his Mediterranean Project.
Vive la France! Le jour de gloire est arrivé, nous sommes tous Arabes a partir de maintenant.
""It keeps Iranians happy" This is non-sense. The Iranians are not mullahs. They are proWestern unlike your Russians."
Yes, you're right Czechmade. However it makes the mullahs happy, who are the ones who rule Iran and who are the ones who Russia deals with.
"This must be the Kremlin Court intrigue!" Yeah, it must be that...
"As for Russians in the East Ukraine - my guess is this is an absolute mix like in other industrial places"
Whatever...
"I can hardly wait till Sarko will finish you off with his Mediterranean Project."
Bela, I don't really take it personal. I understand what you mean. But you know, it is exactly because you say this that you are kown as an anti-white racist in this blog.
Don't take it personally and please, please, don't victimise yourself in that traditional Eastern European way.
"Só tem pátria quem sabe morrer, só tem pátria quem sabe lutar".
Bela, you Eastern Europeans should really put that in your heads. Nations are costy and demanding.
Bela, put this in your Eastern European brain. The Anthem of the Portuguese Marines:
Como outrora cruzámos os mares
e lutámos em terras sem fim
bóinas negras na clara alvorada
entre o rio de lodo e o capin
Nossas bóinas são negras, tão negras
como as trevas da noite no mar
bóinas negras, manchadas de sangue
dos amigos mortos além mar
Desfilai ó Fuzileiros mortos
E juntai-vos ao nosso cantar
Há mil sonhos ainda a viver
Mil batalhas índ’há por ganhar
Recordai companheiros Bolama
recordai Cantanhês e o Cacheu
onde um dia acendemos a flama
que nos Céus da Guiné se perdeu
E o Zaire ainda ao longe nos chama
Chinuango pergunta por nós
nessa Angola onde a dor se derrama,
fomos dignos dos nossos avós
Moçambique nunca esqueceremos
quanto sangue deixámos por ti
do Zambeze às terras do Niassa
tua voz nos dizia venci!
Quer na paz quer na guerra, cantemos
o orgulho de quem sabe ser,
marinheiro e soldado na terra,
que jurámos querer defender
Como sempre gritemos presente!
Como sempre marchemos a par
Só tem Pátria quem sabe morrer
Só tem Pátria quem sabe lutar.
Como sempre gritemos presente!
Como sempre marchemos a par
Só tem Pátria quem sabe morrer
Só tem Pátria quem sabe lutar.
--------------------------------
Like in other times we crossed the seas
And fought in endless lands
Black berets in the bright dawn
Between the river of muck and grasses
Our berets are black, as black
As the shadows of the night and the sea
Black berets, tainted with blood
Of the friends fallen overseas
March oh dead Marines
And join our singing
There are one thousand dreams still to live
One thousand battles still to be won
Remember Bolama companions
Remember Cantanhês and Cacheu
When one day we started the flame
That was in the skies of Guinea lost
And the Zaire still from far way for us is calling
Chinuango asks for us
In that Angola where pain is shed,
We worthed our grandparents
Mozambique we will never forget
How much blood we left for you
from the Zambeze to the lands of Niassa
Your voice said to us I won!
Whether in peace or at war, we shall sing
The pride of who knows to be,
Sailor and soldier on the land,
We swared to defend
As always we shall yell We're Present!
As always we shall march two by two
ONLY WHO KNOWS TO DIE HAS A NATION
ONLY WHO KNOWS TO FIGHT HAS A NATION.
As always we shall yell We're Present!
As always we shall march two by two
ONLY WHO KNOWS TO DIE HAS A NATION
ONLY WHO KNOWS TO FIGHT HAS A NATION.
Think about it Bela before hating Western Europeans. And don't take it personally
afonso h;
Anti white, racist, means what?
It doesn't make sense.
"I can hardly wait till Sarko will finish you off with his Mediterranean Project.
Vive la France! Le jour de gloire est arrivé, nous sommes tous Arabes a partir de maintenant. (Long live France! The day of glory has come, we are all Arabs starting tomorrow.)"
Bela, 2008.
"I feel and even think that the white race is inferior in every conceivable way is natural with regards to its history and current actions. Let the Western countries of the white race perish in blood and suffering. Long live the multicultural, racially mixed and classless ecological society! Long live anarchy!"
Tobias Hübinette, founder of Expo, 1996.
I don't know Bela, tell us the difference.
afonso h;
What the hell do I have to do with Tobias?
I noticed that some of you are developed a mysterious and irrational worship of Russia which is not supported by facts or cogent reasons.
In those cases cold shower, electrical shock therapy, Valium, or similar medication is necessary.
Given your dislike of the French I suggested having a visit by the French Foreign Legion under the direction of Abu Kadher Mohammed el Fukri. Sarko is Hungarian so I have strong influence on him: he will do me any favor I ask.
This move is totally consistent with Russia's continued triangulation against the West. Enabling Islamic terrorist regimes can be done by suppling them with weapons or arming them with a (false) sense of moral validity that will only lead to further attacks against the West.
Either way, Russia wins and the West continues to hemmorhage money as it fights an even stronger and more motivated Islamic threat. All of this works only because Russia is a dysfunctional entity. Any sane country that had undergone an Islamic atrocity on the scale of Beslan would know damn well to halt all conciliation of Muslims.
America has yet to learn this important lesson as well and Russia simply refuses to in the name of fostering further emnity between Islam and the West. I think we can safely assume that none of the odds-makers in Las Vegas were taken by surprise about this. I certainly am not.
Yes, this is very disappointing, and completely against our ideas here at GoV.
But while this is bad, people are jumping way too far in their conclusions about it. Most probably due to faulty preconceptions about Russia, one way or the other.
Russkiy has already touched upon where Russia is coming from in all this. I would like to add how Russia is deeply conservative and surely genuinely find these leather-gay pictures obscene (there's even people who want to forbid The Simpsons and South Park in Russia). Also Russia has dealt with Islam since hundreds of years back, by expanding and imposing Russian imperialism into Muslim land. As Russkiy has described elsewhere this Russification has been successful and Tartars Kazakhs etc. are naturally converting to Christianity, etc. It has not been part of this concept to provoke Muslims.
Provocation only makes sense in a Western context. Where it has the potential to wake people up, when people see Muslims react outrageously. From a Russian perspective, such provocations does not make sense.
So why does this comment come now? Frankly speaking they had a great opportunity to shut up here. It's a cynical diplomatic game as far as I can see. Since there are countries trying to isolate Russia since the Ossetian War, Russia is struggling for geopolitical "market shares", i.e. ensuring trade relations around the world. And to expand here means expanding among the scrap.
As Russkiy said, this is not an ideal world. In an ideal world I would have liked to see Russia reaching out a hand to Denmark, instead of biting their hand. But then again, I never imagined anything like that would happen. So in spite of my disappointment, of course hasn't change my general view of Russia.
And the allover point is this:
Unlike the Western countries, Russia is not waging war against its own people.
This incident does not counter this fact. There's no attack on Russian people here.
Again, repeating: The Western countries are waging war against their own people. Russia is not.
I am very relutant to consider that "art". It was simply provocative. Imagine if instead of Mohamed it was about Jesus, would you call it "art", then? I don't see why I should consider it art just because it is bashing muslims. Try to be a bit more neutral when it comes to Russia and also to islam.
Art exhibitions depicting Jesus in the most horrible imaginable manner can be seen all over the European continent. The latest one - in Austria, if I am not wrong - showed Jesus having homosexual intercourse with the apostles. Yet, Russia, a country with an overwhelming Orthodox Christian majority, chose to protest against a blasphemy directed at the prophet of Islam.
Does it make any sense?
No. This is definitely a political statement whose aim is to "win the hearts and minds" of the Muslims, not the outraged expression of some sensitive religious Russian officials.
The Iranian girl gets smached, big deal! The Serbian Nation was destroyed, that's a great, great deal. See the difference?
It's a big difference in the amplitude and the effects of the action, but the principle behind the action is the same: hit the weak to appease the strong; crush the weak and respect the thug.
Maybe the "Russians" think it is a low form of behavior. I mean to be against Islam and to be disrespectful in the leftist way of being disrespectful are two different things. Behaving like rude, blasphemous leftist is a undesireable way of proceeding, even if it is towards an end we believe we want.
It is that mode of thinking, I mean the one that uses homosexuality as a battering ram against conservative ramparts of culture, that has brought Western Civilization to the state which we lament.
So could it possibliy be the Russia is not quite as perverted as we are and therefore does not see such vile crap as a legitimate political statement. Or is that thinking to highly of others?
I would like to add how Russia is deeply conservative and surely genuinely find these leather-gay pictures obscene.
Actually, so do I. I find it rather distasteful that people flaunt their sexuality in this way. I consider it a degrading frivolity.
That probably makes me a Conservative, too :)
So far I haven't taken a position on Russia, since I don't know enough. But this is too bad. As for their "not making war on their own people," is this not making war on their own people? Russia is courting Muslims by disavowing Western values such as freedom of expression. Is this not a form of making war on their own people, if Russia is part of Europe, as we hope?
Also, I like the 2 photos that are linked here. Especially the one with the two guys wearing masks. It's not suggestive in any way, just ordinary and dignified. Their wearing masks reminds me of the typical political protest, in places where protesting is punished. The artist may be alluding to the custom of dissident Iranian students who woreplain paper masks when they demonstrated against the secret police of, I don't remember whether it was the Shah or Khomeini, but I saw such a demonstration in NYC a long time ago. Using Mohammed masks is very clever. There's a lot going on here in one photo. If all her work is like this, it's pretty good.
Latte,
"Taking care of your own" means just that, and not to adhere to some universalist ideals. Failing to adhere to some abstract universal principles simply does not constitute making war on your own people. But the tyrannical and brutally oppressive anti-white racism of the West most certainly does.
Traditional Jewish nationalism differers from other traditional nationalism in that its adherence is to something transcendent. We saw this conflict already in the old Greek/Roman city states. Where the citizens had their loyalty to the city, while the Jews had their loyalty to something far away, something they considered universal etc.
Your other cultural influence is America. And we see in the other thread how e.g. Zenster conflates "American interests" and "global interests".
Russia is courting Muslims by disavowing Western values such as freedom of expression.
I do not share your enthusiasm about the universal validity of Western values of freedom etc. Instead it's exactly these values that is bringing us down in the West. It's not that these "fine ideals" have been "hijacked" by leftists. It's the ideals themselves that lead us to where we are. This is the conclusion of the development starting from the Enlightenment, the French and American revolution. It's important to see this.
if Russia is part of Europe, as we hope?
Russia is not part of Europe as in Western Christianity and Enlightenment (and consequently not of EU). Which is precisely the point! However, Russia is part of Europe ethnically and with Roman and Greek heritage. But this has nothing to do with abstract enlightenment concepts of metaphysical freedom etc.
Latte, you are giving "making war on their own people" an abstract interpretation, meaning failing to comply with certain certain universalist principles. But the war, and genocidal policy, against their own people of the West is precisely literal.
And as for "courting Muslims". Well, Russia, quite correctly, does not see Islam as the top threat to their national interests right now. Compare this to how America, during the Cold War, under Reagan, quite correctly didn't see Islam as the top threat. Also then there were great opportunities to shut up, but Reagan decided to call the Talibans "freedom fighters". And not only that, he armed them.
So the actions by Russia here, under Putin/Medvedev, is completely paralleled by the actions of America under Reagan. If we are going to tear down Russia just based on this, then Reagan comes falling down together with them, and with an even bigger crash.
And unlike America (under Reagan and otherwise), Russia has never fought any wars for the Muslims. In fact, Russia is the only European country that never in history have sided with Muslims, allied with Turkey etc., such as Britain, France, Germany, America etc. have done. That's good karma! (quite as we find good karma in Denmark).
Study question:
Did Reagan wage war against his own people during the Cold War?
CS, I'm a primitive when it comes to history and culture. My Jewish nationalism has nothing to do with anything transcendant. I just want some safe land for people who are physically related to me. Loyalty to transcendant universal principles is what gets Jews killed. Americans too.
Also, freedom of expression isn't abstract for Western people. We need it to breathe. If this isn't true of the Russian people, I wish them well, but how can I possibly make common cause with them? Maybe they aren't "us"? I see that Russia is on the side of its own people, but if they don't see how important it is for people to be free to make decadent, blasphemous art, they aren't anything like me, and this isn't abstract, it's personal, and that is probably true for most people in the West.
I was an apolitical slacker during the Reagan administration, but from what I remember, he liked Americans more than Bush.
latté island:
You - and others too - might have been offended because of my sometimes harsh opinion concerning the majority Jews. I needed some comprehensible facts to demonstrate the underlying motives for it and today I got some demo tools.
Unlike some posters abstract, walking above the cloud, esoteric intellectual meandering, those who lived under Russian brutality know the true face of the monster.
We are happy that finally we are free from the Red Army and the KGB thugs.
Today at Pamela's Atlas Shrugs Nadler (Jewish) said:
"Dem. Congressman: "Let [Russia] Invade Georgia. It's Right Next to Them."
Earlier:
Russia Can Be Part of the Answer on Iran
By CHARLES SCHUMER
"....The antimissile system strengthens the relationship between Eastern Europe and NATO, with real troops and equipment on the ground. It mocks Mr. Putin's
dream of eventually restoring Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe."
http://online.wsj.com/article/
Amazing, isn't it?
Schumer, Nadler the Jewish Dem. Senators of N.Y. want to deliver Eastern Europe back to Putin after they freed themselves from Russia.
Can you now understand the pent-up hatred by the people of E. Europe against the Leftist (neo-Marxist) Jews?
We are the victims of the Bolshevik Jews and not the other way around
Nadler, Schumer, Soros, Axelrod etc. they represent the true Evil on earth.
And now OBAMA!
Latte,
Also, freedom of expression isn't abstract for Western people. We need it to breathe.
I'm not talking about the genuine freedom of expression of European cultures (including Russia) that we inherited since the Greeks. What I refer to as abstract is the artificial universalist ideals, regarding freedom etc., from the Enlightenment, French revolution etc. (It's precisely what is abstract that I refer to as abstract!)
Of course, these ideologues have fooled the people that anyone protesting against their artificial universalist concept of freedom, is against freedom as such. But in real life it's exactly the other way around. It's only by opposing this Utopianism that we can get real freedom. Not universalist metaphysically unfettered freedom, but real practical freedom, real breathing.
I see that Russia is on the side of its own people, but if they don't see how important it is for people to be free to make decadent, blasphemous art, they aren't anything like me, and this isn't abstract, it's personal, and that is probably true for most people in the West.
Decadent, blasphemous art (in general) is only important from the aspect of abstract and metaphysically unfettered freedom of expression. But generally not for real freedom of expression, real breathing.
As I alluded to in my previous comment, in what you wrote here you came out as a New York Jew (you do not generally do). Also as an "art critic" here you do. So for you decadent art etc. is personally important (and as you said so it is for many Westerners of today). But it has no bearing on what is a good society or not. Instead in most societies not to accept decadent, blasphemous art etc. is what complies with the will of the people (sophisticated enlightened people however like to reprogram the minds of such "primitives", as a way the create the "new society" of the "new man").
And the whole thing about how not approving of blasphemous, decadent art constitutes waging war on your own people, is, well, nonsense.
You - and others too - might have been offended because of my sometimes harsh opinion concerning the majority Jews.
Bela,
Has there been, or will there be, any popcorn eating involved, on your side, regarding the tragedies that have stricken the Jews?
Bela, believe it or not, I understand and share some of your concerns about liberal Jews, and I'm not offended. I'd only say that not all Jews are devoting their lives to destroying the West, and we aren't all plutocrats. Most Jews are ordinary working folk who may vote Democrat but really aren't commies. But I read and enjoy White Nationalist sites, so I know the difference between a real hater and someone like you who can sound harsh but is basically on my side.
CS, getting back to specifics, I found the picture of the two young men wearing masks a beautiful, moving political statement. It's also decadent and blasphemous. When art like this is suppressed, we are all in big trouble.
Latte:
When art like this is suppressed, we are all in big trouble.
Yes, so says the dogma of Western liberalism. But instead it is this very Western liberalism that puts us all in big (BIG!) trouble.
Whether decadent, blasphemous art is accepted or not in a society is irrelevant with regards to "trouble".
C.S. and latté island:
I never ever said "Jews" in general.
I am talking about the B O L S H E V I K Jews, the Rosenberg spies, ACLU, Soros, etc. I properly name, define individually everybody.
Haven't you noticed yet?
Have I ever conflated Solzhenitsyn with Brezhnev? Saharov with Khrushchev? Boris Pasternak with Putin?
Have I ever mixed up the Hungarian Jewish E.Teller, (H-bomb) John Neumann (math. computer) Leo Szilard (Manhattan project) with George Lukacs the Hun. Red Commissar and founder of Western Marxism?
Never ever, Sir!
I deserve the recognition of my careful and deliberate distinction between good and evil.
75% of the Jews will vote for Obama and a mere 20% are against him.
Answering your question: I feel no sorry for the demise of the leftists but the fact is that
THEY will eat the popcorn and WE will go under in this round ahead
Latte,
I was an apolitical slacker during the Reagan administration, but from what I remember, he liked Americans more than Bush.
But Reagan was "courting Muslims", arguably more than Bush. Bush never called the Talibans freedom fighters.
What's your comment on that?
According to your logic Reagan was waging war on American people, right?
I never ever said "Jews" in general.
No you didn't. You did however say "majority". You have motivated your popcorn allusion with "I have no sympathy, nor compassion for SUICIDAL people". And this seems to apply to the Jews as well, so this triggered my question with regards to them. It seems logical that you would eat popcorn to Jewish tragedies.
Or is it that you consider there to be sufficient number of "valiant fighters" among the Jews, while you consider this not to be the case among Western Europeans, so that Western Europeans are suicidal all across the line, and therefore deserves to be stricken by tragedies; which you will sadistically enjoy while eating popcorn?
C.S.
You have a deep seated affection for abstract, intellectual meandering what Proust probably would have liked and many antique Greek philosopher as well.
I have no propensity nor ability to delve into sophistry because I had read someplace that "we cannot state anything without being able to prove the veracity of it's outright opposite".
If you follow the situation in Israel you can see that the Left is working on the dismantling of the State.
If the people don't protest but accept it, then to me it is SUICIDE and they should eat what they cooked. I feel compassion for the fighters but not for the sheeps.
Same for America: If the majority wants Obama, so be it, then live with the consequences, they deserve nothing better.
Your statement is false:
"deserves to be stricken by tragedies"
Tragedy is something that happens Deus ex Machina like earthquake or hurricane.
When your home made bomb blows up in your face it's being called "mishap".
I am perfectly convinced you understand my mindset too well only you enjoy the thrill of intellectual dueling; my life is too short to indulge in things like that.
"this Russification has been successful and Tartars Kazakhs etc. are naturally converting to Christianity"
Conservative Swede. That is not realistic. Those conversions came from mixed marriages mainly and all that entails. Also, those minorities keep growing to such an extent that any eventual conversions en mass are largely surpassed by new little muslims...
And also, the jump of those minorities into mainstream will only strenghten one thing: The Asianisation of Russia. Even (non European) Jews and Christian Caucasian peoples influences on Russia may lean it towards a "less European" path (and I consider Georgians and Armenians and Ossetians Europeans, I simply recognise that "life in the Caucasus" must be hard as hell).
The Ukraine and Belarus are what can really influence Russia positeveley.
I also find funny (actually, quiet disturbing) that you are all worried with Russia's relations with the muslim world while what you should fear is the so called Moscow-Beijing axis. Think about it. Ah, Conservative Swede, the rest, I pretty much agree with you.
Armance,
"The latest one - in Austria, if I am not wrong - showed Jesus having homosexual intercourse with the apostles. Yet, Russia, a country with an overwhelming Orthodox Christian majority, chose to protest against a blasphemy directed at the prophet of Islam.
Does it make any sense?"
No it doesn't. But, how sure are you that Russia did not protested? Or the Orthodox Church? Anyway, who cares?
"This is definitely a political statement whose aim is to "win the hearts and minds" of the Muslims"
Or to keep the Mullahs happy... they don't care with "muslims", they care about the muslim leaders. The West, on the other hand, seems to be very keen on "muslims" and other Third Worlder masses.
"It's a big difference in the amplitude and the effects of the action, but the principle behind the action is the same"
Tecnically truth. But pratically that's like saying that "the principle behind the action is the same" if I kill my brother because he is annoying me, just like I killed that other fly who was annoying me as well.
I understand why many people (perhaps a majority) might find such an "art" exhibition repulsive, but this is not the point here.
My question is: in this particular case, how did Russia protect the interests of her own people, issuing a statement against a private exhibition held in Holland, whose author is an Iranian immigrant? They have a lot of space to close decadent art exhibitions in their country or sphere of influence, demonstrating to the Muslims how much they respect their religion.
latte,
When art like this is suppressed, we are all in big trouble.
Not at all. It would not have been allowed under the Production Code. Your ideas about freedom seem narrowly limited to post-1968 culture.
Sebastian, that is indeed to think too highly of others. However, that was also what happened (also). That's why I am not going to make a big deal of it.
"I see that Russia is on the side of its own people, but if they don't see how important it is for people to be free to make decadent, blasphemous art, they aren't anything like me, and this isn't abstract, it's personal, and that is probably true for most people in the West."
Unfortunately, Latté, unfortunately. I mean, I found this too decadent. A little bit off the line it's okay but this particular case is just offensive. And not charming.
Like, you have to draw a line between sensuality and promiscuity. Do whatever you want but that differenciation between good/acceptable and evil/too far is imperative. In my view, at least. It seems that most of the European youth today, just don't have a clue when they are doing bad things. I say, do it, but be aware of what you're doing. At least.
"in what you wrote here you came out as a New York Jew"
LOL! Latté, me too found this a little too Jewish if you aloud me to say this and don't get offended. Really, it's nothing personal against Jews or you (and you know it) but in the metaphysical sense (take this Bela!) Europe has turned "too Jewish", too Semitic. That's how we have to be anti-Semitic, not against other Jews but against our Civilisational big bad jew.
(Really people, sorry for the Anti-Semitism but I feel it must be highlighted once in a while.)
"approving of blasphemous, decadent art constitutes waging war on your own people"
In a way, I'd say exactly this.
"I deserve the recognition of my careful and deliberate distinction between good and evil."
Yes, Bela is fair on Jews. What Bela really hates is Western Europeans, that's why he lives in America (Half kidding, but let the irony flow...)!
Armance,
My question is: in this particular case, how did Russia protect the interests of her own people, issuing a statement against a private exhibition held in Holland, whose author is an Iranian immigrant?
The answer is simple: It didn't.
But at the same time it didn't go against the interest of its people. This thing neither added nor subtracted anything with respect to this.
Afonso,
The point is that the Muslims in Russia are well integrated in general since long time back (Chechnya being the exception). This works when there is a strong and self-confident national culture. We see the same in e.g. Bulgaria. The ease with which some of them convert to Christianity is an indication of this.
Anyone understanding the nature of Islam knows that in a Muslim community where people convert to Christianity at ease, not considering it a big thing, it tells something about that Muslim community as a whole. So I assumed that in a forum like this, that statement would suffice to give the whole picture.
afonso h;
My resentment against W. Europeans rests with the fact that during the height of the Cold War, they massively supported the URSS when Solzhenizyin served his 25 years in the Gulag and the East Germans shot at the refugees at the Wall.
I was in jail and many young Hungarians were "stored" there until they reached age 18 to be hanged afterward for taking part in the '56 revolution.
At the same time W. Europeans burned the US flag, protested against Reagan's Pershing defense and hailed the murderer Russian Communist.
Don't you think my dislike is well justified?
And what positive accomplishment Europe can brag about since then?
Eurabia?
Loss of freedom of speech?
Bela,
If you follow the situation in Israel you can see that the Left is working on the dismantling of the State.
If the people don't protest but accept it, then to me it is SUICIDE and they should eat what they cooked.
And that's when you go to pop your popcorn, right?
Did you read at all this by the Baron?
"The current plight of the Europeans is frequently dismissed by some of our American readers, who say, “It’s their own fault. Europeans repeatedly vote to keep the socialists in power, so they deserve what they get.”
The above information illustrates why this is not true."
What's the difference between your popcorn eating and someone eating popcorn having sadistic fun over the plight of the Hungarians 1945-89? For 45 years the Hungarians were "sheep", not much of a fighting spirit there, they just let themselves be oppressed - POPCORN TIME, right!!?? And you let them throw you in jail. I'm sure there was someone eating popcorn celebrating your weakness.
It would not have been allowed under the Production Code. Your ideas about freedom seem narrowly limited to post-1968 culture.
Very good point, Islam o'phobe.
Armance, pay atention:
"how did Russia protect the interests of her own people"
Russia is sorrounded by NATO in its three former Baltic States where there are many Russians, Russians who are treated as second rate citizens. The Balts are destroying everything that is Communist/Russian/Slavic there, and highlighting everything that is Nazi/German/Germanic in it.
They know they have no future, they are chosing to be rulled buy the Teutonic Knights instead of the Czars. I wouldn't judge them if they hadn't done exactly the opposite when the Germans were there. They expelled the Germans from there as well. When the time comes, they will cry for Russian help and then will do the opposite ad aeternum untill they cease to exist.
NATO and the E.U. border the old Soviet Union nowadays.
In Moldova, Russians and Ukrainians have been fighting a war against the European (United) and NATO-ish Romanians. The Ukrainians and Russians there wish to be part of Russia and that land is Traditionally Russian land.
In Belarus... well Belarus is a white Russia.
In Ukraine you better know what is happening.
In the Caucasus Russia faces many islamic peoples who ardhently desire a muslim Caucasus. The independent Christian States of Georgia and Armenia lie there as well as muslim Azerbaijan. In Russia, if we don't count the Russians, only the Ossetians there are Christians and Europeans.
Russia has helped a lot Armenia who's like a thorn stuck deep in the muslim flesh (get a map and paint green the muslim areas. You will see what I mean). America has ignored Armenia. Russia has been the machine that alouds Armenia to breath.
However, America has had great relations with Azerbaijan, even after Azerbaijan had behaved in a "jihadistical" way against little Armenia.
In Georgia, Saakashvili was speaking under an European Union flag and selling his soul to be accepted in NATO; He was also the product of an American backed anti-Russian revolution which happened inmmediateley South of the Russian border. That is, Russia's very Mexico.
Russia made a war on him after Saakashvili had started to kill Ossetians and Russians. Russia DID NOT DESTROYED GEORGIA but liberated the ethnic minorities who were in their homes opressed by Georgia; The all West called Russia "bad girl!" from the astonishing hight of their non existant high ground. Especially after Serbia. Not Serbia. Bosnia. Not Bosnia, Kosovo. That is, Serbia. It also happens that those minorities were Christian and prefer Russians to Western (and Caucasians who identify as) Europeans.
In the far East, Japan and South Korea are close to the Russian border and are nothing but powerfull American pets.
In ex Soviet Central Asia, there is a potential hostile-to-Russia islamic population. The Russians have managed to get along with those Turks but Americans have since 9/11 created bases in various of those Republics.
Now, pay atention. In an outer area, though very close to Russia, America has recently stored a great amount of HARD POWER.
It started with Afghanistan. Then, NOBODY RALLY KNOWS WHY, it was Iraq.
Meanwhile North Korea started playing with nuclear weapons, even claiming they could reach the city of Angels but all Americans could care about was an hypotetical nuclear Iran.
The "pet-ification" of Musharraf's Pakistan to Americans feet, happened long ago. Turkey, also, is a member of NATO.
So, the American attack on Iraq WAS REALLY ODD. NOBODY REALLY UNDERSTOOD WHY. But it passed. Then, EVEN MORE PUZZLING THAN THAT IS AMERICAN INTEREST ON DOMINATING IRAN.
FOR THE RUSSIANS, IT BECOMES OBVIOUS: AMERICA IS JUST ENCROACHING RUSSIA.
IRAN IS THE LAST NON PET-IFIED COUNTRY IN THE AREA. Iran is also a Greal Regional Power.
RUSSIA CAN SIMPLY NOT ALOUD AMERICA TO CONTROL IRAN!!! AND AS SUCH RUSSIANS HAVE TO PLEASE THE MULLAHS IN IRAN!!!
If they can do it by "issuing a statement against a private exhibition held in Holland, whose author is an Iranian immigrant" great! IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL!!!
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOICED BUT AMERICANS ARE ALL PARANOYED BECAUSE RUSSIA WAS SUPPOSED TO GIVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO IRAN!
So THIS IS NOT A BIG DEAL!
What are we, five? Is this that difficult to understand?
P.S. - That's how Russia is protecting the interests of its people, both at home and abroad. They do it by not allowing a Great Regional Power like Iran to fall in American hands.
-----------------------------------------------
... or maybe this is just nonsense and I am, am Bela has repeatedly stated, a crazy demented person with too much free time...
Also: Dymphna, please, do not erase me! I know the 500 hund... b... please??
Afonso,
Why don't you just split up your rant into two separate comments?
Conservative Swede,
"Muslims in Russia are well integrated in general since long time back (Chechnya being the exception)."
I'd even say that Russia does not interfere a lot with the peoples it has dominated. The Chechens are not different. The problem is that Russia offered independence to everybody in the region but the Chechens. That was wrong but simultaneously, very right. How would Georgians, Armenians and Ossetians live with a big Chechenia-Azerbaijan-Iran-Iraq-Turkey surrounding them from everywhere?
The Georgians however, have a very peculiar way to say, thank you, though.
---------------------
"Don't you think my dislike is well justified?"
Yes I do Bela, I just think you should watch your mouth. Not that I think that you not have that right but as we say here, "those who speak too much, hear what they don't want to".
The answer is simple: It didn't.
But at the same time it didn't go against the interest of its people. This thing neither added nor subtracted anything with respect to this.
Then they did it for nothing. Perhaps the subconscious reason was to emulate the US or France, in their attitude of super-powers on the international political scene. Clownish. Though I admit, the US - the specialist in such foolish statements asked by nobody - unlike the Russians, is unable to take care of the American people's interest.
So, this is what happens when the Russians try to walk in American out of fashion shoes.
Armance, I'd like you to at least read my comment.
Con Swede, it flew that way. Usually I think and write almost simultaneously...
OK, Afonso, I'm reading it right now. Takes a little while, seems to be long.
C.S.
"If the people don't protest but accept it, then to me it is SUICIDE and they should eat what they cooked - "
And that's when you go to pop your popcorn, right?
Yes Sir!
"Hungarians 1945-89? For 45 years the Hungarians were "sheep", not much of a fighting spirit there<
What are you talking about?
Did you forget the '56 revolution?
1000 Russian tanks invaded, Budapest were bombed, thousands hanged or jailed...
200.000 refugees to the West...
I understand your esoteric, abstract philosophy but time to time please descend down to earth and Google up Hungarian Revolution '56 and see the pictures...LOOK FOR THE SHEEP AMONG THE BURNED CADAVERS!
And you let them throw you in jail.
What's your point? Most smart guy left for the West but I kept the fight on and lost. Such is life.
Sadistic pleasure is the wrong word, for it's implies a degree of sickness: I am not sick nor pervert just hardened by what I had survived and I am finding some fairness in Devine retribution when it happens to the guilty.
Russia is sorrounded by NATO in its three former Baltic States where there are many Russians, Russians who are treated as second rate citizens. The Balts are destroying everything that is Communist/Russian/Slavic there, and highlighting everything that is Nazi/German/Germanic in it.
They know they have no future, they are chosing to be rulled buy the Teutonic Knights instead of the Czars. I wouldn't judge them if they hadn't done exactly the opposite when the Germans were there. They expelled the Germans from there as well. When the time comes, they will cry for Russian help and then will do the opposite ad aeternum untill they cease to exist.
NATO and the E.U. border the old Soviet Union nowadays.
In Moldova, Russians and Ukrainians have been fighting a war against the European (United) and NATO-ish Romanians. The Ukrainians and Russians there wish to be part of Russia and that land is Traditionally Russian land.
Afonso,
a comment on this:
I guess any sympathy or mere understanding for Russia shouldn't make us oblivious to other nations' recent history. Somebody here on GoV (don't remember who) came once with the good argument - replying to the accusations against some Russian leaders with KGB past, particularly Putin - that a whole generation cannot be made extinct and replaced by night with other pure citizens. Those Baltic states and the "NATO-ish" Romanians had a tormenting experience with the Soviet Union which, in spite of its existence as a conglomerate of nations, was carved mainly in a Russian linguistic and partly cultural shape (for example, in the 50s, after the Soviet invasion, children were taught in the schools of the former Communist block how the first and best inventors and scientists were Russians, in spite of the historical truth).
So, the same as Russia cannot be replaced by magic with a new generation, those countries bear with them recent memories and fears (like the experience of the Gulag or thousands of women raped by the Red Army soldiers by the end of the WW2; not talking about the example of Estonia, a nation whose more than a quarter of the population was killed, deported and replaced with ethnic Russians).
Given the historical record, I guess their reticence - to say the least - towards Russia is perfectly justified and understandable. I appreciate that Russia finally understood their wish to be a part of a different military and economical alliance, because, realistically speaking, this is the desire of the majority of the population. It's almost impossible nowadays to have even the least amount of sympathy for Russia in the countries of the former Soviet block or Warsaw Pact. I guess if my colleagues, family or friends find out what that I feel some appreciation for Russia, they might think to confine me to a mental institution - just half jokingly here.
Sadistic pleasure is the wrong word, for it's implies a degree of sickness: I am not sick nor pervert just hardened by what I had survived and I am finding some fairness in Devine retribution when it happens to the guilty.
Its not divine retribution. You're projecting your own ego and revenge fantasies onto God. Its not a good idea to try and balance out evil in the world with more evil.
Afonso
"How would Georgians, Armenians and Ossetians live with a big Chechenia-Azerbaijan-Iran-Iraq-Turkey surrounding them from everywhere?"
I know very little, but you know nothing: Georgians have a special relationship to the Chechens.
Georgians have a very special relationship to the Jews as well.
Google "Bergjude" mountain Jews, they were so grateful to the Georgians that they built a church in Israel for them. Can you imagine??? A Jew loving you so much he feels compelled to build a church in Israel for YOU only.
HAHAHA This is unic.
islamo'phobe:
"Devine" is an aphorism and nothing to do with religious meaning; just like saying Oh my Good. Why are you trying to twist, nag at every word, verb, adjective, noun in order to discover some hidden nefarious message?
I recompose my opinion only to match your level of thinking:
I found a well deserved smugness in the failures of the f***d up bastards. But I did not reach an orgasm by doing so and I dont project anything at all neither my ego nor my fantasies.
Close to like schadenfreude.
Sounds better for you?
Afonso,
just a brief comment regarding your theory about the US trying to encircle Russia through the Iraqi war: if there's a seed of truth in it, the only thing left is a demonstration of how to fail miserably. Besides, I should credit the neocons with some intelligence, which would be in disagreement with reality.
Bela,
Why are you trying to twist, nag at every word, verb, adjective, noun in order to discover some hidden nefarious message?
When somebody invokes divine retribution I assume they are talking about divine retribution. What could be plainer than that?
Bela,
Did you forget the '56 revolution?
Oh, the glorious revolution when you liberated yourselves from Communism? No wait, you didn't. It was just a 2 week interlude of hand-waving in a massive 44 years of sheep-like submission to Communist tyranny. (Here have some popcorn).
Well, 2 weeks out of 44 years, that's 0.09%. So you were only sheep 99.91% of the time. (Here, cheer up, have some more popcorn).
Armance,
It's almost impossible nowadays to have even the least amount of sympathy for Russia in the countries of the former Soviet block or Warsaw Pact.
This is indeed very different from country to country. And for valid reasons. And that's something to digest for Russophobes and Russophiles alike. It's a very mixed bag.
The general pattern is that the countries with short history under Russian rule, i.e. under Soviet Communism, associate them with that and fear them (as well as having recent memories of Russian invasions). This applies to the Warsaw pact countries in Eastern Europe. Except for Serbia.
But the former USSR republics all have a longer history with Russia and have mostly accepted their imperialism (quite as Europe have accepted American imperialism). For many of them Russia is associated with liberating them from the Turks or similar.
Out of the 15 republics of USSR, 10 prefer to stay close to Russia. Two are torn: Ukraine and Georgia. And three of them, the Baltic states, really belong to the previous category (i.e. with a short history under Russian, Communist, rule).
Possibly Moldavia could become torn too. But it isn't today. In spite of being Europeans and Romanians, they have a longer history with Russia, since the 18th century. So they belong in that category.
However, due to ethnic and language differences I find it more likely that Moldavia would "join" the West (in the longer run) than Ukraine (as a whole). If Ukraine would "go west" it would first be split up, and it would the Galician part (which used to be part of Austria-Hungary) that will go.
So even Romanians view of Russia seem to depend on which country they happen to be born in.
I guess if my colleagues, family or friends find out what that I feel some appreciation for Russia, they might think to confine me to a mental institution - just half jokingly here.
Maybe you should make some friends in Moldavia and discuss the issue with them. At least they wouldn't consider you a mental case.
Armance,
"Given the historical record, I guess their reticence - to say the least - towards Russia is perfectly justified and understandable."
I believe you're Romanian. And your right on this. However, I was not picking sides on those excerpts. I was stating facts.
You see the Balts really have to chose if they want to be rulled by the Czars or the Teutonic Knights. It's been like this since Prussia was invented. I think we can see a pattern on this. I would not like to be on their position. It's like Malta. They are faced between Italy and Lybia... but Italians are nicer than Germans and Russians...
Concerning Moldova it's a stupid post Soviet State. Give the Romanian part to Romanians and the other part to Russia or make them independent. I think that's what will happen in long term. It's stupid that the average Moldovan has such a hard existance while he could be part of the Land of the Eternal Happiness, also known as The EUSSR.
-------------------------------
"Georgians have a special relationship to the Chechens."
Yeah right. Are you saying that nobody is islamisation the Caucasus as we speak? Are you saying that Georgians could live well under muslim domination? As dihmis?
That is unhealty multiculturalism Czechmade.
And with Turks, do the Georgians also have especial relation with the Turks? I thought Sheverdnadze had said it clear that Georgians had Historically had to sell his daughters to the slave markets of Istambul to survive... it must be nice, right? He also said that Russia is a "Natural Ally" of Georgia and has save it many times in the past. Probabily a cold blooded Communist...
Actually, I am (still) reading Oman Pamuk's book (a Turk) about Istambul and he says that his grandmother family descended from "Circassian Slaves" or "Circacian Concubines". Pretty.
Afonso,
you nicely extrapolate
"And with Turks, do the Georgians also have especial relation with the Turks?"
No.
I quote a Georgian proverb:
"The Turks kill the body, the Persians the soul, the Russians kill both."
It is however interesting that Erdogan (coming from a special Georgian muslim minority) claims in Germany that "integration is a crime against humanity".
haha this guy has nothing to do in Turkey as a "Turk" overintegrated.
Afonso,
consider that islam in some regions is very deluted (naked girls taking bath/swimming in Senegal). Chechens used to be Christians, to fight the Russians they turned to islam...which might be before the advent of the wahabis few years ago something very strange and ridiculous. You know "Caucasian" Let us learn more.
So, in case you haven't seen it, here is the vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX6IdufsHSo
Allat,
Nice video. And she's such a cute little creature. But I think she has been breathing helium.
This works in the West: young(1) female(2) flimsy artist(3) from Iran(4) speaking of the Pedophile Prophet. 1+2+3+4 makes Westerners lower their guard regarding their Nazi ghost detectors, and at least the have listened to someone saying that Muhammad was a pedophile, instead of being in reptile brain cyborg-lynch-mob mode.
This is how Westerners of today are wired (and must be unlocked). And it's not a compliment to us.
Unfortunately, this is Russian art show. Nobody protests:
http://www.russiatoday.com/entertainment/news/31451
The whole outrageous text. Notice how the author is not sure about his art work's favorable receiving in the West - perhaps everybody has his standards of decency:
Entertainment
Islamic terrorists as ‘heroes of our time’
October 6, 2008, 19:59
His theory is that Islamic terrorists are the new heroes of our times and one of the most ubiquitous images in modern mass media. Russia's young and promising artist Pyotr Aksenov has displayed his controversial series of works called "Golden War" at Moscow’s RuArts gallery.
Bold, contentious or thought-provoking?
The glitz and glamour of the West with the traditions of Islam – Aksenov is trying to blend things that seem to have nothing in common.
"War now is just another ever-lasting series on TV for us, we take it for granted, and we see all these warlords on TV, in magazines, in movies,” said Aksenov. “They are just another kind of tabloid fixtures like Angelina Jolie and Tom Cruise," the artist believes.
But he adds he's not trying to offend anyone with his pictures of war-like men in glamorous setting and he definitely can't be blamed for disrespecting religion.
Aksenov graduated from a theological university and obtained a degree in religious studies.
"I greatly admire Islam,” said the artist. “I think that Islam and Christianity are the most powerful religions in the world and that we should consider both of them while taking any political decisions".
Aksenov has been extensively exhibiting in Europe, Asian and the US over the past few years. However, he's not sure that this series will meet a favourable reaction from audiences in the West, so the only chance to see it is to visit the Moscow-based RuArts gallery.
The exhibition is on till October 25.
Afonso,
"In Belarus... well Belarus is a white Russia".
And Austria might be blue Germany.
Ukrainians used to be called "Small Russians" too. May I call you "Little Spaniard"?
This is a real Western hahahakindergarten
In Belarus Lukashenko banned Belorussian from TV and administration. I can read in Belorussian, since I learnt enough Ukrainian. It is more than close. Apart of that the West of it has Catholic churches. A Russian friend of mine a pianist went there for organ playing, since orthodox churches have no organ music.
Baltic states, Belorussia and Georgia were the most prosperous places under USSR rule.
Ossetians are majority Christians but also muslims. Their language is close to Persian.
Very interesting question would be how many live in Georgia now. If more than 50 000, they might easily ask for one more Ossetia, like Albanians for one more state Kosovo with purely Albanian flag. The Ossetians could outdo them by asking for a third state! The Russians would love it.
Bela, Afonso, & all: Before I even read through all the comments, please respect and trust me enough to speak your mind about Jews without asking me not to be offended. I'm giving you both my official non-antisemitic seal of approval. I like Majority Rights, so you guys don't even register on my Jewish paranoia meter. Well, sometimes, but it's okay. I myself want liberal Jews to wake up, and I have occasionally been called a self-hating Jew or a nazi and other things by people who don't respect my right to free speech. Who cares, that's their problem. And if I think someone's antisemitic, don't worry, I won't have Morris Dees tap your phone.
Armance,
Unfortunately, this is Russian art show. Nobody protests:
http://www.russiatoday.com/entertainment/news/31451
Well, after all the Russians are Christians too. Maybe we shouldn't expect too much.
Both the exhibition and the reporting of it are very Western. Disgusting! And people say Russia does not have "free press" and "freedom of expression"...
CS: But Reagan was "courting Muslims", arguably more than Bush. Bush never called the Talibans freedom fighters.
Yes, I don't have a problem agreeing with that in hindsight. I was a conventional apathetic liberal in those years, not a Reagan fan. When, after 9/11, I suddenly turned right, I re-evaluated Ronnie but never got into the cult. I still don't have a detailed memory or understanding of the 80's, because I was incredibly busy working my way through school, so I didn't notice politics and I still haven't made up for it. But I agree with you, arming the Taliban was probably a bad thing, after all.
As for the art thing: 2 more points. I don't care what used to be allowed or not allowed by the government. Even though I'm not religious, I find it useful to think of human rights as coming from God, i.e., inalienable and not subject to some bureaucrat's opinion. Maybe the Production Code was a drag and good riddance to it. Not that I like sex scenes in regular movies, but if that's what people want, they can watch and I'll choose not to watch.
Also, one thing I don't like about some of the blasphemous, nasty modern art is that it's funded by the government. I am totally against any public funding of anything but basic services. If people want to be vulgar, that's their right, but we shouldn't be taxed for it. Bottom line: I hate unfair taxes and censorship. I'm not exactly a libertarian, but some of their ideas work for me.
Latte,
I find it useful to think of human rights as coming from God, i.e., inalienable and not subject to some bureaucrat's opinion.
Fair enough. However, what when the will of the people of a nation is at odds with the decrees of human rights, coming from a higher being, be it God or the UN? Must the people submit to the "will of God" then? Which principle is more dear to you, the sovereignty of the people or the unlimited right to decadent art?
And while at your metaphor. It seems strange to me so see something as "coming from God" that was thought out in the 1968 cultural revolution. Makes it hard to imagine them as eternal values.
When for example John Stuart Mill talked about political freedoms, there were clear common sense limits to them. E.g. he didn't consider standing on a soap box outside a factory agitating the crowd as covered by free speech. Quite as shouting "fire!" in a crowded movie theater is not.
The 1968 culture revolution hijacked these good principles, and turned them into something undermining civilized society instead of supporting it (Frankfurt school style).
latté island:
I appreciate your understanding my stand pertaining to the Jewish people.
What I say about the Commie Jews is not much different from what Pamela Geller (Atlas Shrugs) or the Israel paper Arutz Sheva says.
Unfortunately the best list on the self-loathing Commies now became defunct:
"SHIT LIST...7000+ Self-Hating Israel-Threatening Jews
Self-hating, Israel-Threatening, Israel-Bashing Jews are a threat to Israel. This page lists 8000+ of the worst offenders.
www.masada2000.org/shit-list.html"
As we differentiate between Leftist/Rightist Americans, Hungarians etc. so do I concerning the Jews.
The Ynetnews, moderately leftist Israeli papaper published an article:
Stalin's Jews - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews
Opinion, Sever Plocker: We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish.
www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
So it's time to have an open mind and discard the PC rule.
I stated earlier that Hungarians are political scumbags because she is the only country on earth which accepted Commie rule 4 times;
in 1919, 1945, 1956, and present.
Those who resisted and fought against the Russians and their satrap were killed, exiled, jailed or turned into no-person
(Demote into low level position where he/she will die without noticing: see Dubcek the Czech leader)
Bela,
My resentment against W. Europeans rests with the fact that during the height of the Cold War, they massively supported the URSS when Solzhenizyin served his 25 years in the Gulag and the East Germans shot at the refugees at the Wall.
And because of that you have decided to become just as much of an @sshole in return. (Did you truly find this so inspiring as to emulate it in return?)
At the same time W. Europeans burned the US flag, protested against Reagan's Pershing defense and hailed the murderer Russian Communist.
May I suggest that you reserve your hate for the people who were actually involved in these things, instead of telling in the face of people, who are actually trying to do something, how much you wish for their countries to perish and how much pleasure you will take in the suffering of all the innocent under the brutal violence of Muslims (Are you seriously going to eat popcorn to underaged girls being brutally gang raped by a whole crowd, including torture? This is already happening. Are you already eating popcorn to this? How did these innocent girls deserve so much hate coming from you?)
Just an aside; the USSR did not represent Russians, it represented Communism. The USSR is gone now and Russian's have been liberated like a decolonized people. These days the objectives of the KGB and the USSR are pursued by corrupted Universities.
Also, human rights are a renaissance idea. The idea of the "Dignity of Man" is actually heretical. Man has no dignity, he killed/kills Christ.
For more information read John Salisbury, Renaissance England's Pat Buchanan.
C.S.
were actually involved in these things, instead of telling in the face of people, who are actually trying to do something,
Care to name those who protested AGAINST the Russian atrocities in Eastern Europe.
Care to tell me more about those who "tried to do something" (like what) against the Berlin Wall and Gulag?
Anticommunist protest in Sweden?
Ever?
Do you have a new version on the events that unfolded during the Cold War?
You make me evoke Don Quijote's story whose mind is full of heroes that exist only in his imagination...like Putin the Muslim loving Savior.
Haven't you noticed that others politely laughing at your adulation of Russia; apart from afonso who is perching on the very ending tip of Europe, nobody is sharing your convoluted love ideology about Russia.
It's possible I might be an @ss*le but are a certified idiot is for sure.
Will you place a protest post on Margot Wallstrom's home page or only ranting overe here? -
Keyboard Warrior.
Bela,
Care to name those who protested AGAINST the Russian atrocities in Eastern Europe.
Quite as in America, most people did. All the political parties from center to right across Western Europe. What was notable in the cold war was America's weakness in this. And compared to that, in the post-WWII world order, Western Europe was even a hell of a lot weaker. So not much got done except for petitions, wakes etc. Neither from Europe nor America. Until Reagan.
Care to tell me more about those who "tried to do something" (like what) against the Berlin Wall and Gulag?
The Westerner that did most about this was Ronald Reagan. But number two after him is a Western European: Margret Thatcher.
But I can see that your deranged hate of Western Europeans is so twisted that facts doesn't matter. In your mind all and every Western European were vicious pro-Soviet Communists during the cold war.
Nevertheless, I still do not see how you get from there to the sadistic joy you express over the W. Europeans that gets struck by Muslim violence today, since it mostly hits young teenagers who were not even born during the cold war.
Innocent girls, as young as 12-14, get gang raped for hours, under torture, and eventually have acid poured over them, and the kind, and have their skin, body, mind and life completely wrecked. And you are enjoying this while eating popcorn? Because in your twisted mind the parents of these girls were all Soviet collaborators, you think its fun and divine retribution? You a truly a deeply sick person.
Bela,
take into account how many Russians were killed and suffered during Communism, like so many of your and mine fellow countrymen. As a nation and on the spiritual level, I consider the Russians brothers and sisters in sufferance rather than objects of hate and contempt. I realized this after a long time of hatred towards them. After all, Solzhenitsyn was a Russian patriot.
It's true that many Westerners don't know today and are not interested in what really happened here, the level of de-humanization in Gulag and the Communist prisons (though definitely not the type you can encounter on GoV). But in the same way they are oblivious to many things, beginning with Islam. Yes, perhaps the anti-Communist protests in Sweden during the Cold War were almost non-existent, and this is part of the explanation of the events of today.
An important part of the solution is here, on GoV: my hope is that at some point in the future, when the Europeans will regain the pride in their cultural heritage and civilizational values, they will find interest also in recent Eastern European history. There is no reason for resentments against Westerners, on the contrary, we should feel affection for them especially after the strange discovery that while we were living in such a hellish society, they seem more damaged and weaker than us. It's like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son: they had all the freedom in the world, they were spoiled - and yet it's them who need mostly support and compassion to find their ways. When you feel like eating popcorn when Westerners are victims of their own deranged politics and policies (like in the case of the Western girls raped by immigrants), please meditate about the Prodigal Son. It makes you understand the whole meaning of the story.
Armance,
Yes, perhaps the anti-Communist protests in Sweden during the Cold War were almost non-existent, and this is part of the explanation of the events of today.
Seriously, I do not know where you Eastern Europeans get your strange ideas about the West back then.
It's the same story as always: media was flirting with communism (and university people, activists etc.), but the whole rest of the Swedish society was turned against communism. Schyman's old party was not considered acceptable (quite as the Sweden Democrats are not today). 80% of our troops were up north in order to protect us from any Soviet invasion. And back then we had an impressive army for a small country. Communists were registered, considered security risks, and monitored. Etc.
What was the problem with Sweden was the same as with the whole West, when it came to international affairs it was just word, words, words. Not until Reagan was proper pressure put on Soviet Union.
But then came Olof Palme and destroyed anything that was left of Sweden's honour. The opposition was of course still taking the right position. But media was firmly on the red side. And it's the same as today: media decides. The same mechanisms were in operation then, as the ones that lifts Obama to presidency today. So when Reagan eventually came, media across the West were all against him.
Bela and Armance,
Regarding Sweden and support to eastern neighbours against Soviet invasion, read about Sweden and the Finnish Winter War 1939.
Finnish immigrants in the United States and Canada returned home, and many volunteers traveled to Finland to join Finland's forces: 1,010 Danes, 8,700 Swedes, 895 Norwegians, 372 Ingrians, 346 Finnish expatriates, 366 Hungarians and 210 volunteers of other nationalities made it to Finland before the war was over.
I.e. 75% of the were Swedes.
Sweden contributed military supplies, cash, credits, humanitarian aid and some 8,700 Swedish volunteers prepared to fight for Finland. The Swedish Army sold large quantities of Swedish M96 6.5 mm rifles and surplus stocks of ammunition to Finland. Perhaps most significant was the Swedish Voluntary Air Force, in action from January 7, with 12 Gloster Gladiator II fighters, five Hawker Hart bombers, and eight other planes, amounting to one third of all the Swedish Air Force's fighters at that time.
I think we could have done more. But it is also true that if Sweden had officially declared war on the Soviet Union, we would have ended up on the wrong side in the world war. So compared to that, staying neutral was clearly better. The Finnish winter war illustrates why Sweden was truly torn in WWII. And not helping the Finns at all was not an option.
What countries came to the help of Hungary and Romania against Soviet intrusion, like Sweden did for Finland? Is there any Western country who did more to oppose Bolshevik invasion of an eastern neighbour?
Conservative Swede, except the Soros-sponsored Radio Free Europe (fact about which I found out much later after the fall of Communism) there wasn't any beam of light reaching here. None - total darkness and any shade of hope, except Radio Free Europe until late in the 80s.
Only words equals zero action and we needed action. The 50s, immediately after the Soviet invasion, were perhaps the darkest years in Romanian history, with hundreds of thousands of people forced to follow the path of the Gulag. Some survivors remember how many of them went optimistically and joyfully to the concentration camps, mocking at their torturers because "anyway in a few years the Westerners will come here and will save us, you will see. They cannot allow such a massacre to happen in the heart of Europe". Almost 40 more years passed; many of those imprisoned in the Gulag died still hoping until the last moment that "Western liberators will come".
It doesn't make any difference for us if some words were uttered in the West.
And what happened here it this:
http://www.thegenocideofthesouls.org/public/the-last-witnesses/
(this link was provided some time ago on GoV, if I remember well, by Homophobic Horse).
Please follow the link: what would words change in such circumstances?
armance:
I perfectly understand your argument but it will be more valid in 50-100 years from now when all the victims - just like the victims of the Holocaust - will have departed for good.
With the Nürnberg trials and following de-Nazification process the German Fascism somehow reached a legal closure and redemption: it was condemned physically and morally by the Humanity as a whole and we regard it with contempt.
The Communism and the world wide genocide it caused has not reached a closing conclusion: not a single criminal is held to account and as ideology it's alive and well, murderers like Castro, Che is admired and respected.
Do you regard the German people, including the Whermacht as victims too? I am talking of the WWII generation not today's Germans.
The current Russian upper echelon is full of KGB agent who were active criminals 18 ago.
Do you condemn Mengele and absolve the butchers at the prison Lublanka?
Those Russian tank crews who destroyed Budapest are victims and I should feel brotherly love for them? This is what you say?
I have no right to forget nor to forgive in the name of the victims of the Holocaust: these decisions belong to them.
No one shall have the right to forgive the crimes of the Communism: only the victims have the moral right to do or not to do.
Armance,
What you just wrote just underlines the importance of having helped Finland from being occupied by Soviet Union; something they mostly helped themselves to, but at least 5% of the troops were volunteers from Sweden.
One would hope that Bela could be able to see how the Finns would have suffered the same way as his own people did, that he would have a fragment of empathy in him, a tiny shred of the golden rule, and would be able to see the value of the support that was given from so many Swedes to Finland here. An effort, which as far as I know is unmatched. All other countries invaded by Soviet Union was left alone to their darkness, by their neighbours.
armance:
Off topic: Romania is a beautiful country. I remember Doi May at the Black sea near the Bulgarian border, Brasov, Lacul Tei, Constanca, mamaliga etc. in 1970.
Mulcu mesk.
Bela,
The current Russian upper echelon is full of KGB agent who were active criminals 18 ago.
Do you condemn Mengele and absolve the butchers at the prison Lublanka?
Those Russian tank crews who destroyed Budapest are victims and I should feel brotherly love for them? This is what you say?
It's just so much simpler with jingoism isn't it, Bela? Why look for the real reasons behind Hitler and Stalin. Easier, and more emotionally satisfactory, just to hate Russians, hate Germans, hate, hate, hate.
Don't analyze. Pick an ethnicity and hate it! Hey, pick a whole bunch of ethnicities to hate. And grab a fist of popcorn while you are at it.
C.S.
When you say Finnland, I say Urho Kekkonnen with the Lenin prize and vomit.
======================================
P.S. I did not pick on Sweden because France, Italy, W. Germany were the chief appeasers.
But I am glad you recognized the Western Europeans Leftist support for the URSS.
Why should I feel any empathy for them now? They did not care about us then, I don't care about them now.
Isn't it a fair deal?
C.S.
I wrote it aformentioned that Germany closed the book on the past and I DO NOT hate the Germans nor any other nations for that matter.
But I do hate the Russians.
As the Poles about it or the Estonians.
Bela:
When you say Finnland, I say Urho Kekkonnen with the Lenin prize and vomit.
OK Bela, this proves beyond any doubt everything I ever needed to show about you. Nothing more needs to be said.
Not a single positive word about how the Finns opposed a Soviet invasion. I guess you would have eaten popcorn if the had fallen under Bolshevik occupation and tyranny.
Bela,
Brasov (actually a German city whose name about 800 years ago was Kronstadt) and Doi Mai are among my favorite places in Romania and I was born in the Constanta county.
So, glad to hear about your preferences!
Besides, I have to confess, as a Romanian, my admiration for Hungary and the great Hungarian nation. I cannot tell you how many here found inspiration in the great 1956 Hungarian revolution. For me, it is one of the greatest events in the recent history. The first nation in Eastern Europe to revolt against the Soviet occupation. Blessed be the martyrs of 1956 Budapest! They didn't die in vain, believe me: they will always live in the souls of the people living in this part of the world.
So there is an example of successful fending off of a Bolshevik invasion: Finland. But clearly that is of no interest to any of the Eastern Europeans in this forum. Is this a measure of how serious they really are, after all...?
There's a twisted mentality in today's society. All the attention that McCain gets for having been a prisoner of war. Sure he deserves attention for that. But people of today have all forgotten that you are a better soldier and more honourable if you do not end up as prisoner of war.
To the modern mind it is more heroic to having suffered under a danger than it is to having fended it off. In the old days, when the concept of honour was intact, it was the other way around. The dangers that were avoided, by true bravery, become forgotten by the modern mind. True bravery is not appreciated any more.
Surely a prisoner of war, and similar, should be commended and praised to the degree that he has acted bravely. But there is only so much that we should celebrate losses.
Conservative Swede and Bela,
let's all remember the parable of the Prodigal Son. I am glad the Finland didn't share the same faith with us, Eastern Europeans. If Sweden contributed 5% to this (or even 0.000001% to it), it would be enough reason to be appalled by the fate of the Western girls brutally raped by third world immigrants - not counting the most important aspect that it would be inhumane not to be appalled by it.
Besides, in the eve of electing The One as the leader of what used to be named "the free world", I believe that even a great thing as the history of the latest 50 years become irrelevant. Now we face a common enemy more pervert than the Gulag itself.
armance:
I have NO admiration for Hungary, I left it for good, I am "American" now: it's an alien country for me, I have no personal ties with Hungary. As a young student I took part in the '56 revolution after which I got 3 years jail time + 10 years loss of civil rights after the jail.
Of course, in my latest post it should be read "fate" and "becomes".
Sorry, I'm drinking some tonic gin following in a bitter mood the latest developments in the US elections and the way the media reflects them.
C.S.
The Russo-Finnish war lasted from Nov.30 till March 13. that is barley longer than 3 month; about 100 days in all.
You tend to overblow its significance. Kekkonnen however sucked up to the Russians from 1950 till 1982 - a BIG difference.
3 month resistance versus 32 years of collaboration.
Bela,
The Russo-Finnish war lasted from Nov.30 till March 13. that is barley longer than 3 month; about 100 days in all.
You tend to overblow its significance.
Okay then, I guess it's not such a big thing if you have Soviet tanks in your country or not. Well, you know best. You have had it. So it wasn't the Soviet tanks that bothered you then?
Kekkonnen however sucked up to the Russians from 1950 till 1982 - a BIG difference.
I guess you were better off in Hungary than in Finland, silly me.
I have NO admiration for Hungary, I left it for good, I am "American" now: it's an alien country for me, I have no personal ties with Hungary.
So you dumped Hungary too (I guess that's why you didn't think that Soviet tanks was of any matter to the Hungarians). And now you will dump America as well tonight. The only thing left for you to love now is your big bitter mean-spirited ego. I feel sorry for you.
Bela provides an example of what happens to a person who lets himself be consumed (devoured!) by bitterness. I have never been close to that, but my bitterness over the acts of Sweden in recent history has truly been immense (people who followed me the last few years know this well)
But I'm learning and mature. And I can start seeing things from a new perspective (I always do). Olof Palme destroyed Sweden. But before Sweden was a great country. Consider not only the support for Finland in the Winter War (which singles Sweden out as unique, and also makes me understand the background of neutrality policy better). Consider also this:
Denmark is always, rightly, brought up as the country that saved it's Jews end helped them escape to Sweden.
But hey there are two countries involved in that story! Surely, as in the Finnish story, Sweden played the lesser part, but nevertheless a pivotal part. Where would the Danes have found a refuge for their Jews if it hadn't been able to send them to Sweden? (and not only bad sides of a neutral, unoccupied Sweden)
However, quite as with America during the cartoon crisis, there was a discrepancy between the acts of the government and the acts of the many voluntary Swedes.
C.S.
Raul Wallenberg is recognized in Hungary as savior of the Jews. there are statues and streets named after him - and the Russians killed him.
I dumped Hungary as many, many more did it before me. Like the guy who developed your software you are using now.
(From Wiki:
Charles Simonyi (Hungarian: Simonyi Károly; born September 10, 1948) is a Hungarian computer software executive who, as head of Microsoft's application software group, oversaw the creation of Microsoft's flagship office applications.)
Or who made your CPU - From Wiki:
Andrew Grove
Born September 2, 1936 (1936-09-02) (age 72)
Budapest, Hungary
Occupation Senior advisor, former Chairman and CEO,
Intel Corporation
Andrew Stephen Grove (Hungarian: Gróf András István) (born 2 September 1936) is a Hungarian-American scientist. He was one of the earliest employees of Intel Corporation and ultimately played key leadership roles in its success. Grove was born to a middle-class Jewish family in Budapest, Hungary.
During the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 he left his home and family ...
CS: ...when the will of the people of a nation is at odds with the decrees of human rights, coming from a higher being, be it God or the UN? Must the people submit to the "will of God" then? Which principle is more dear to you, the sovereignty of the people or the unlimited right to decadent art?
The highest principle is the conscience of the individual. Here, God is the God in everyone. Not the UN or any other entity, even one's own church. There is no "submission" to one's conscience. Only to outside authorities, who can only coerce outward submission. Depending on who is right, you go with your people or against them, or sit it out if possible. Free speech, including decadent art, isn't negotiable. I'll shut up to the extent that I'm afraid of other people. Fear of bullying or unemployment isn't a good basis for a state.
Latte,
Free speech, including decadent art, isn't negotiable.
But the will of the people is?
CS, I'm not sure what you mean by the will of the people. Maybe I need a context. For instance, we don't always know what the will of the people is until we vote, and that can be manipulated by elites, so is it really the will of the people? That's one reason we need to consult our conscience. Even ordinary soldiers can disobey orders legally, if they're ordered to do something wrong. Ditto for the will of the people.
If the people of Iran would execute the artist whose work we're discussing, because she is pro-gay and anti-Mohammed, the people are wrong. Even if they were my own people, they'd still be wrong. How do I know who's right, maybe gay people and people who disrespect the "prophet" are evil and deserve to die. I don't know for sure. This makes the individual conscience even more important, because no one can prove these things.
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