Over the last few months Dymphna and I have discovered that the only Gates of Vienna posts that are virtually guaranteed to get massive numbers of comments are the ones that discuss Russia. What is it about Russia that elicits such extremes of opinion (and invective) among our readers?As regular readers know, I am no Russophile.
But many commenters here seem to be unable to distinguish among America’s interests, Russia’s interests, and what is morally right or wrong.
America’s interests and Russia’s interests (surprise!) do not coincide. The behavior of both countries may or may not be morally right, but that is irrelevant to the argument at hand.
Actions which are moral for an individual or a small group may be immoral if taken by the leader of a nation. This is what makes statecraft so difficult: a leader who truly represents his people may have to do appalling things on their behalf. When “Bomber” Harris instituted the mass bombing of civilian targets in Germany during World War Two, it was in what he judged to be the interests of the British people to do so. He was looking after their welfare. One may disagree with the wisdom and/or the effectiveness of his strategy, but that is the reason it was undertaken.
What would be an abomination for an individual may be an obligation for a national leader.
There is no escaping this dilemma. Any great leader will face it, and if he places the welfare of his own people ahead of his own, he may commit acts that will haunt his conscience for the rest of his days.
All of this is an attempt to bracket the behavior of Vladimir Putin (and Dmitry Medvedev). To regard their behavior as an affront to morality is to miss the point.
- - - - - - - - -
The moral obligation of an American leader is to look after the well-being of the people of the United States. The moral obligation of a Russian leader is to look after the well-being of the people of Russia. A leader of either country who fails to do these things is acting immorally.
President Bush has acted immorally towards his own people.
It is arguable that Vladimir Putin has acted in a more moral fashion with respect to his own people than George W. Bush or Bill Clinton has with respect to Americans. This is because the forty-second and forty-third presidents of the United States placed “international law” ahead of the welfare of Americans.
Not to see this is to be obtuse.
It doesn’t mean that Vladimir Putin is a good person. It doesn’t mean that he hasn’t acted cynically (and against American interests) in Iran and other places. It doesn’t mean that he hasn’t been brutal.
It means that he has taken care of his own.
George W. Bush has not taken care of his own. He has taken care of Mexicans, the UN, the OIC, the Saudis, the Shiites of Iraq, and the trans-national oil companies.
Not to see this is to be obtuse.
God help me, but Vladimir Putin has been a better leader of his own country than George W. Bush (or any president since Reagan) has been for the United States of America.
It’s an ugly and unpalatable fact, but it is true.
121 comments:
What would be an abomination for an individual may be an obligation for a national leader.
At the same time, what is a virtue for an individual can be a vice for a politician. E.g. generosity. A politician when being generous is giving away someone else's money (i.e. the taxpayers money, i.e. your money).
Baron:
You succeed correctly define the separating principle of the two countries; to wit, there is no direct connection between the two model because both are following two different and antagonistic path.
Soviet Russia believed her "exceptionality" role - as do the US today - and wanted to export her system to the world as the best that humans can dream of. It included the "proletarian internationalism" which meant the right to invade where the Dictatorship of the Proletariat found itself threatened. They failed, and ended up in economical and social ruins: hence 180 degree turn: mind your own business and use Machiavellian methods to maximize the return: do business even with the Devil himself and support your own citizenry above all.
A clear cut authoritarian system which keeps on tight leash the anarchistic element like the media.
The caveat: the jury is still out, the country is still in constant flux so let's judge this phase as good for them until now.
Our situation is antiquated with the present leadership in which I include Bush, the multiculturalist Left and Right, the PC crowd, the media, the ethnic strife, globalism etc.
We are behind Putin's Russia and Obama is following the old pattern therefore it's only logical that we as a country must reach a crush landing at some point just like Russia did under Yeltsin.
Since we are still living in a dreamland and captivated by cultural Marxism, not a single political figure dare to step up and say that many tenets of the Constitution is now obsolete or at least, many of it's Present Interpretation by the Courts is like that.
We have to make a much higher and more difficult jump to catch up with Putin's mindset than the Russian people needed to.
And we haven't even started yet.
You know what make me go for Russia? Just one thing, it dosen't suffer (if it has the illness it is in its beguinning) the illness that is killing europe and its midway in USA. My own country Brazil is suffering it, it just don't have massive immigration, yet. Russia has the will to live that i don't see in ANY of the west.
And more i would love to see Russia expand into Kazakhstan, Georgia (They deserve it), Ukraine, Belarus and maybe Armenia (if they want to). Having a powerfull Russia into the neighborhood again WILL make wonders into Europe, USA mindset.
Newly liberated Russia can't even compete with the NWO "Liberal Democracy" for the trophy of sheer destructive evil.
"And what are the goodies to be force fed to us all? According to Samuel Huntington (a man who explicitly puts Orthodoxy in the same league with Islam vis-a-vis ‘the West’) the core concepts of our civilization are supposed to be individualism, liberalism, constitutionalism, human rights, equality, liberty, the rule of law, democracy, free markets, the separation of church and state.
The corollary of such ‘core concepts’ is an array of secondary ‘isms’* and movements, which my friend Jim Jatras lists as feminism, environmentalism, homosexualism, consumerism, evolutionism, hedonism, educationism, antidiscriminationism, eroticism, etc., “which are used to further break down traditional moral restraints and national identity, leaving an atomized population without resistance to ideological direction.” Notions which would have struck our grandfathers as eccentric at best, demonic at worst, but at all times insane, now rule the ‘mainstream’. To them any notion of an ethno-religious culture, inhabiting a homeland, is verboten.
But to ‘them’ - neoconservatives and liberals alike - the enemy is still in the East. The Serb today, the Russian tomorrow… and the Greek had better take notice, lest the Turk be unleashed for another bout of ethnic cleansing, the likes of which we’ve seen in Smyrna in 1922, in Constantinople in 1955, and in Cyprus in 1974. In their heart of hearts the globalists fear the revival of Christianity, and want to perpetrate the old Schism that has done so much harm to us all. They are not content with the moral, spiritual and demographic wasteland they have created in what used to be Christendom; they are plotting the final showdown - in the tradition of the infamous Fourth Crusade, almost 800 years ago, which allowed the Ottomans to sweep across Asia Minor, the Balkans, and up the Danubian plain all the way to Vienna. What else is the meaning of not merely preserving NATO - now that the threat which created it is gone - but extending it eastwards? It is seen as a hostile act in Moscow, and it IS a hostile act, a logical follow-up to the ongoing plunder of Russia’s natural resources, in conjunction with the treasonous gang of recycled apparatchiks who currently run that country. One supplementary motive for the kind of policy the U.S. government has pursued in the Balkans was to set up the political, legal, military and psychological precedent for the demolition of Russia as a great power, its permanent exclusion from ‘Europe’ and its consignment to the depths of the Eurasian land-mass, with a cordon sanitaire of NWO satellites around it.
Sadly, such declarations are there for all who care to read and listen on both sides of the dominant political spectrum. The “neo-conservatives,” having kidnapped the name of those who resist the neoimperialist trend, have promptly proceeded to aid and abet the enemy. Bill Kristol and Robert Kagan, for instance, gloat in what they call “benevolent global hegemony.” The world is America’s ‘domain.’ Other powers, notably Russia and China, will bristle at this, but who cares: we should take their ire ‘as a compliment.’ They call for an indefinite massive military build-up unconnected to any identifiable military threat, and for ‘citizen involvement,’ in effect, militarization of the populace. The traditional ‘citizen soldier’ concept is reversed - their goal is to get suitably indoctrinated young Americans to go and risk their lives not for the honor and security of their own country, but for the preservation of some new "multiethnic" Bosnia thousands of miles away."
Taken from a speech written by Srdja Trifkovic in 1998.
Now that the establishment has the "great unifier" Obama, the American establishment now has the charisma to do what it could never have done with George Bush - militarise and regiment the entire populace.
*Regarding the popularity of ism's I wrote: The long slow decline of the West can be attributed to the Catholic Church who erroneously taught that the logical syllogism is consistent with divine revelation. The Catholic church, being a Western church, has always contained that special feature of the Western mind: reliance on the logical syllogism. Having divinized human thought the decline was inevitable. In the scholastic Middle Ages, Christian theology became "systematised" and subordinated to logic. Logicalness becomes the first test of truth.
For this reason the Renaissance could only have happened in the West. Logic is a form of measurement performed by man, logically, man becomes the measure of all things, theology becomes "scientific method"; this follows to the "Enlightenment", with its profoundly naive optimism in the unlimited progress of man's reason. This logical "mechanicalness" also fired the ideas of mechanist thinkers like Newton and Descartes. Rationalism reached a dead end with Hume and Kant, who show that "pure reason" cannot exist by itself: all "truth" is subjective. Having dethroned God through the centuries and put reason in his place, Western man is now left with nothing--save himself. An infamous and disastrous attempt to regain order was attempted by Hegel, which Marx took and turned into "Dialectical Materialism" - a last attempt at trying to make the logical syllogism sympathetic with (material) objective reality-the "objective reality" that now serves as a God substitute (the divine true and beautiful higher future of humanity.). The pseudo-religiosity of Marxists, and the popularity of Marxism with lapsed Catholics (and vice versa) is well known and supports the above regard.
"And more i would love to see Russia expand into Kazakhstan, Georgia (They deserve it), Ukraine, Belarus and maybe Armenia (if they want to). Having a powerfull Russia into the neighborhood again WILL make wonders into Europe, USA mindset."
No, there are serious objections to this. Georgia has been saved from itself we can safely say that.. But the other countries are only better stuck in the oppressive Russian mire because "The West" will destroy their souls.
Welcome to the forum Rocha,
But Geez. Is there something in the Portuguese language or what? I love playing Risk, but I definitely do not want to see Russia expanding territorially, only as CIS.
However, if the Orange minority somehow would push for NATO membership for Ukraine, with a marine base in Sevastapol etc., then Russia will be forced to enter. And important part of the Russian nation resides (and resides traditionally) in Ukraine.
But as is, Russia operates (quite as the USA) through its supernational organization (commonwealth), as in the recent cases Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Fine so.
Russia has the will to live that i don't see in ANY of the west.
Well, we can agree about that.
Strangely enough I agree with most of hat Bela wrote here.
But not this:
A clear cut authoritarian system which keeps on tight leash the anarchistic element like the media.
Putin is not at all as omnipotent as people imagine. In fact very far from it. Media is as free as in the West, if not freer. And I don't see it as an authoritarian system, unless that's a synonym for traditional style rule in accordance of the will of the people and for the common good for the country.
H. Horse,
Amazing Trifkovic quote you provided. This man is brilliant, so insightful. He wrote that 10 years ago.
Now that the establishment has the "great unifier" Obama, the American establishment now has the charisma to do what it could never have done with George Bush - militarise and regiment the entire populace.
My God, could this be the meaning of the Obama presidency? And he would unify and militarize the whole West. I have always thought of McCain as the reckless warmonger, who might very well have trigger a war with Russia. But what you point out is that Obama has the capacity to do much more harm, to hit much harder against Russia.
Shrudder...
"My God, could this be the meaning of the Obama presidency? "
Yes. I've been saying it for quite some time. That Obama is most pernicious development in American politics since Dubya said "You're either with us or against us."
Also, Jared Israel accurately predicted wars in Afghanistan in 2000, and Georgia in 2002.
They intend to destroy Russia because of it's independence and strength. The former Soviet states have a huge and educated workforce, nuclear weapons and tonnes of mineral wealth.
H. Horse,
Yes, Obama is the height of Western NWO ideology, and Russia is the greatest anomaly to this (being essentially a pre-WWI entity).
The only good thing I can see coming out of this is all GoV commenters coming together in a giant group hug.
Let me say this:
Unlike many on this forum who proclaim himself to be a Russian expert par excellence (like Congo Liza) I am not privy to the inner workings of the present Russian State and I shall never dispense absolute knowledge on many things that enshrouding that huge country.
I prefer to refrain from turgid, bloviating pontification on the greatness of a country where I have never lived.
I do have personal experience - just like many other E. Europeans have - and I would not recommend to live over there for Russia is a rough, violence ridden place even with money. She is not for sensitive souls.
By saying "authoritarian" I did not convey negative feelings: I meant that there is a certain transcending line as to how far one can go by trashing his own country. That is, there is no reward in rudely defaming one's homeland which is the case in the Western public arena.
CS,
However, if the Orange minority somehow would push for NATO membership for Ukraine, with a marine base in Sevastapol etc., then Russia will be forced to enter. And important part of the Russian nation resides (and resides traditionally) in Ukraine.
According to the maps that you and Afonso provided previously the political power of the Orange faction is decreasing yes?
Putin is not at all as omnipotent as people imagine. In fact very far from it. Media is as free as in the West, if not freer.
Yes but its just that contrarian journalists in Russia seem to have a nasty habit of falling off buildings, getting in the way of bullets etc. If Putin and his cronies are not responsible then who is?
BTW, I mostly agree with you that Russia has been much wronged in terms of NATO expansionism. Bush the Elder told Yeltsin in 1991 that NATO would not expand into the former Eastern bloc.
I-phobe,
the Orange faction is decreasing yes?
It actually broke in half after the Georgia war and the bigger part (Timoshenko) started heading "eastwards".
Yes but its just that contrarian journalists in Russia seem to have a nasty habit of falling off buildings, getting in the way of bullets etc.
You are right. This is something I will need to look into when I find the time. There are quite a number of cases...
Bear in mind, though, that a contrarian journalist makes many enemies. Russia is still largely in the hands of oligarchs and mafias. Putin is not as omnipotent as people think. Far from it. Had he been he wouldn't have assassinated journalists, but put them in jail, mental asylums, or similar.
Baron -- I heartily endorse everything you said.
C. Swede please note that the countries i cited were russian-aligned or had large russian minorities in it. Per Example Belarus is orbiting Russia for quite a long time, if Russia don't swallow it soon it may just slip from her grasp. As for freedom in Russia the russian state looks like being very serious in not being poisoned by the west disease, so it kills anyone contrary to its wishes. I'm not a fool Russia is not the good guy but in a world full of bad guys (EU, ISLAMISTS, Cultural Marxists, Multicuralists, etc) Russia being a normal country (taking care of their own) is an oddity and the last chance (in my humble opinion) of an ethno-religious-cultural survival of the west. Sad.
Haha, I have noticed this too--the fact that pretty much every post on Russia generates quite a number of comments.
I personally find Russia to be a fascinating country. I study the Russian language and I love Russian history. It has played an important part in history and will no doubt play an important role in our future.
As for why so many comments are generated on Russia-related posts, I have absolutely no idea. Personally, I think it's a rather strange phenomenon.
Oh no, someone who has linked to this article is pro-BNP--by the logic of certain individuals in the blogosphere, that must mean that we are all BNP supporters on here, which also means we're fascist.
Just thought I'd share.
C.S.
Have you heard?
"Vladimir Putin completed his grand plan to retain power in Russia by assuming formal control of the country’s largest political party yesterday. He became chairman of United Russia and confirmed that he would serve as Prime Minister when he steps down as President."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
So believe me Putin nearly not as impotent as you want us to believe. Before you engage into ritual whitewashing, please check out the news about Putin and Medved's legal maneuvering to return to absolute power.
Please DON'T read your OWN news, try other sources time to time.
Alrighty, then.
Call me obtuse.
The interest of America extends beyond our borders. It has since Thomas Jefferson was President.
W entered office with a mostly domestic agenda, focusing on education, saving social security, and lowering taxes. The international challenges were forced on him.
I would like to see any evidence that Putin is acting in the best interest of anyone other than himself, and his friends. Exactly what has improved for the Russian people? New markets in weapons sales? Life expectancy? Health care? Birth rates? Infrastructure?
POSH!
There is a twenty three minute documentary, about how Putin has stifled free speech in the media.
/ruck fussia
I must admit that being completely objective is not an easy thing. For instance, when the war in Osetia Started, I couldnt entirely separate myself from my Russian Identity and look at things objectively, however without much knowledge of Osetia-Georgia-Russia history, the first thing that came into my head is: why the hell do Russians want to get into another Caucusus War?
I do try to be objective, however It is beyond me, why do the Poles insist on that Missile defence. If I understand the Russian mentality correctly, The dont want Poland or Chechoslovakia. To us those countries are alien and have nothing to do with us. The different story is Ukrain. The thing about Ukrain is that Russians think that Ukranians, Belorusians and Russians are the same people. Russians dont hate Ukranians we love them. To Russians we are one people, and probably that where the problem lies. Ukrain lies on the land that Russians consider their motherland. Its comparable to something like Australian-British Relationship, Where Australians still see Britain as the land of their Fathers. Moscow is very Young whilest Kiew is an antient capital of Rus. The Western Ukranians developed a separate Identity from the Rus Identity.
To sum things up:
Russia is a huge country with pleanty of land and Resources, The Russian Population is declining (we dont need to expand further). Russia doesnt have any Ideology except for our attachment to our country and the Idea of it.
Russia sees America as a hostile entity, that tries exploit our resources.
From that follows that we dont mind countries like poland to have their (rightly deserved) self determination, As long as it is non hostile to our interests.
{Exactly what has improved for the Russian people? New markets in weapons sales? Life expectancy? Health care? Birth rates? Infrastructure?}
What is the meaning of that? alot of things have improved, every single criteria you mentioned has improved.
Well, I know the weapons sales have improved, but there is much documentation to the contrary on the other.
Any reliable government sources of info available?
Russkiy,
I do try to be objective, however It is beyond me, why do the Poles insist on that Missile defence.
The (British) newspaper reports I read made it sound as if the Poles were reluctant and the Americans talked them into it.
I have been sceptical of Putin for a long time, I used to believe atleast to a large extent in Western liberalism, but now I am not so sure. The support for Putin on the ground is at least high 60%.
You think people are so stupid and completely brainwashed? In any case majority of Russians who have been to Europe would make exactly the same observations as have been made on this site. They know what is happening in the west.
no2liberals,
Well, I know the weapons sales have improved, but there is much documentation to the contrary on the other.
Any reliable government sources of info available?
Like Australia and Turkey, Russia is running a campaign to increase birth rates. They give out prizes to couples who have the most children.
Natalie,
As for why so many comments are generated on Russia-related posts, I have absolutely no idea.
Its a contentious topic and disagreement is one way to keep a conversation going. We all know that Islam is bad and so reaching a consensus on Islam-related posts is not difficult or time-consuming.
islam o'phobe
I'm well aware of the efforts of the Russian government to hand out door prizes for giving birth. I haven't seen any evidence that this plan is or will make a dent in their disastrously low birth rates. What about the alarming HIV/AIDS epidemic? The alcoholism? The high abortion rates?
I would like to see the government figures, but I don't have much faith that the info they would release for public consumption would be factual.
As for the matter in Poland, if B-HO is actually certified as the winner in the electoral college, and is inaugurated in January, he has already preemptively surrendered to Russia on the missile defense shield, even though the Polish government thought they had an agreement with B-HO to allow it.
I just hope B-HO defies the SCOTUS over his December 1 deadline to produce his birth certificate. The riotous proceedings would make for some interesting blogging.
"Russia has the will to live that i don't see in ANY of the west".
Russian demographics are among the worst in the industrialized nations. Mean age of survival for Russian men has dropped like a stone to the mid-fifties while in the rest of the West it has risen to the high seventies. Those "happy" Russians are drinking themselves to death. The birth rate has also plummeted (for non-Muslim Russians) for the same reason as women do not want the burden of raising children alone.
"Media is as free as in the West, if not freer".
Oh this is really rich. Maybe you could check out with journalists' own organizations how free they rate a country where criticizing the Supreme Leader gets one a bullet in the head?
I do not understand the warm approval of a country because the leader is imagined to be looking after his people (Putin was doing a terrible job and was saved by oil money gushing in). That leader is acting in non-democratic ways and has made rule of law in his country a joke. Many of you are also willing for him to invade his near-abroad at whim, whenever he deems his country threatened, regardless of what those recently freed populations desire. These are not regions that are yours to gift to your hero.
Germany had such a guy whose stated priority was looking after the interests of his people and who deemed it necessary to invade neighbors out of national interest and that didn't work out so well.
What is causing this blind spot and giant double standard? People who can see Obama for the fraud he is hold Putin up as a role model to world leaders, especially the POTUS?
The Russians will always act in their own interests, and sometimes do things I believe simply to make the West scratch its head. Putin is a realist, if nothing else.
I believe what Russkiy here said to be largely true. Russia is not an expansionist empire. No country with a declining population is.
However, I would not count out "legitimate defense of Russia's security interests". I am particularly worried about the Baltic republics that are currently the target of hostile Kremlin propaganda. If the US lets it slip, it is possible that Baltic republics will be finlandized.
And I must say that the russophilia expressed here is a bit disturbing. There is little reason to fear or loathe Russia, on the contrary. However, I would not treat Russia as a shining example of the way country should be run.
For me traveling to the USSR for the first time was the biggest culture shock of my life. It is therefore difficult for me to look at Russia without thinking the Soviet Union first. When Putin says that the breakup of the Soviet Union was the biggest tragedy of last century, I believe him and I also believe that majority of Russians agree with him.
29 comments already? Here we go:
One reason I always point to the usefulness of some of the things Putin etc. do is simple: We can learn from it. We can care better for our interests if we refrain from being global police and look to our own interests first.
Another is that the successes of the Putin regime (take Georgia) often point back at failures of Western / American ones. Again lessons to be learned.
Also, Russia has a functioning market economy, with sound finances and freedom to do what one wishes. They refuse to take the Western path of nationalization and state control, for which I commend them. State control was ugly in Soviet times, and it is ugly now.
As for the firebombing of Dresden and the like: Yes, I hold that there are absolute moral rules to obey, even during wartime. One is to not deliberately target civilians. We broke that rule, which I think was wrong.
Russia is an interesting place. Freedom at the lower level is, in my opinion, greater than in the US, and (from what I've heard) debates in Russian Internet media are much better than in American ones (Daily Kos, LGF, anyone?).
We need to brush away the prejudices that were useful during the Cold War, and assess the situation with fresh eyes. Cautiously, for the Russian Bear is awake and strong, and mistakes will be exploited.
@no2liberals:
"The interest of America extends beyond our borders. It has since Thomas Jefferson was President."
The interest of America may well do but don't excpect other nations like China and Russia to accomodate those interests. This is the point the Baron succinctly made. Your comment now equally applies to Russia who have just given the US and its puppet regime in Georgia a tanning and to the Chinese who, when they aren't busy flooding the world with cheap products and colonising Africa, have just made off with the lion's share of the oil in Iraq.
"The international challenges were forced on him."
What tosh. What threat did Iraq pose to the US? None. Did Iraq attack the US on 9/11? No the Saudis did. Yet W attacked Iraq and Afghanistan to secure the oil. This was a choice and certainly not forced and again shows how the US will act in what some would call an immoral manner - including a President lying to his own people - to justify an invasion of a sovereign nation to steal its resources.
That the Chinese have done this without bombing anyone or sacrificing a single one of its citizens is damning. Strange how the media who are anything but free in the west, kept quiet about this.
What I've noticed when debating with many Americans is that they seem stuck in a time-warp. They still harbor hatred for Russia, a legacy no doubt of the cold war and the hysteria surrounding communists. But the game has changed. The US is now a failed state, a bankrupt nation with a terminally sick economy and now facing domestic turmoil. China is now the emerging super-power, a super-power that is easily out-manouvering the US and unless the US gets its act together soon - unlikely - then the US is going to face a catastrophe as its global influence shrinks.
What's missing from the ongoing debate is a way for non-Russians to evaluate the state of their internet and other popular culture. Can some Russian experts here provide a few links to English language sites that exemplify typical Russian free speech, for example what would be the Russian equivalent of GoV or South Park? Or if translation problems make this difficult, what about a summary of what's available to our Russian counterparts, or maybe someone could translate an internet discussion that exemplifies what we'd admire about them.
Most of the killings of journalists and political figures in Russia could be tracked to monetary interests of oligarch’s groups, not to their political affiliations.
As it was mentioned before, Russian economical landscape is dominated by extremely brutal semi-mafiosi economical groups. As such, authoritarian and brutal government power is a given to maintain minimal law&order in such environment.
The real trouble could emerge if authoritarian government will move to execute totalitarian power. So far, with all my despise for former KGB thug, it is not the case in Russia.
Most of the killings of journalists and political figures in Russia could be tracked to monetary interests of oligarch’s groups, not to their political affiliations.
As it was mentioned before, Russian economical landscape is dominated by extremely brutal semi-mafiosi economical groups. As such, authoritarian and brutal government power is a given to maintain minimal law&order in such environment.
The real trouble could emerge if authoritarian government will move to execute totalitarian power. So far, with all my despise for former KGB thug, it is not the case in Russia.
Question to Russkiy:
During WWII the Ukraine people greeted the Nazi German troops as liberators; - with salt and bread.
I saw some old footage where this was presented.
What is the truth about this event and if it's true why did it happened?
Baron,
Pupils should study this kind of logic in high schools.
Great small little article.
"But Geez. Is there something in the Portuguese language or what?"
Yes. Usually, foreigners, maily English, love our intrejection: "Fogo!" meaning "fire!".
It is used as Geez, as the f word, as damn it, as you want...
Now seriously, remember why you want the NATO to cease to exist? Yeah, we are confortabily sitting outside the theatre. Some of us are in the Oestremini (the Extreme West of Europe), others are in America...
And Belarus, Eastern Ukraine, if there is a majority European part of Kazakhistan, South Osseta, could all go to Russia. It will be "new blood", it will dinamyze it and it will do wonders to its self esteem.
I cannot see many cons on that.
Homofobic Horse,
I had to read your first comment twice. It sounds like poetry to my hears.
It's great, man, great. Very true... I'll translate it to my native tongue when I have the time and keep it as one of the best pieces of information... I just think you're unfair to the Catholic Church but you made some points there as well.
Thanks man, great comment.
"The pseudo-religiosity of Marxists, and the popularity of Marxism with lapsed Catholics (and vice versa) is well known and supports the above regard."
I just want you to note that before the Vatican II, the only thing bounding Catholic Doutrine and Marxism was that the Church had the "social obligation" of taking care of the poor... like a Social Care institution. That's how the posion of Marxism infiltrated Catholicism.
Russia being a normal country (taking care of their own) is an oddity and the last chance (in my humble opinion) of an ethno-religious-cultural survival of the west. Sad.
I'm coming to think so too, but hesitate to draw the obvious conclusion: That our loyalty should go to Moscow, and to not our own governments, which are dismantling our countries and our civilization for the sake of the NWO. I suspect I'm not alone in having this at the back of my mind. Maybe that's why "Russia" is such a popular topic here?
I started out as a Reagan Conservative; now I'm calling for a ConIntern. Strange times!
defiant lion,
"have just made off with the lion's share of the oil in Iraq."
Yes, and you can thank the leftist U.S. Congress for that. China is another topic, and believe me, I am not a big fan of the ChiComms, either.
"What threat did Iraq pose to the US?"
This again? PLEASE!
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq.
"Yet W attacked Iraq and Afghanistan to secure the oil."
And just how many barrels of oil does Afghanistan pump each day?
War for oil, hunh. Weak.
"including a President lying to his own people - to justify an invasion of a sovereign nation to steal its resources."
Repeating a lie, that W lied, makes you a liar.
"The US is now a failed state, a bankrupt nation with a terminally sick economy and now facing domestic turmoil."
I see you are contaminated with BDS, and antipathy towards the U.S.
Good luck with that.
We have our challenges, but we ain't dead yet, not by a long sight.
We've a long way to catch up to European standards, in those regards.
Islamophobe,
"According to the maps that you and Afonso provided previously the political power of the Orange faction is decreasing yes?"
Yes, and in such a way...
But Ukraine is a very big country (the bigger in Europe after the great four: Germany, the U.K., France and Italy) and the Western part of Ukraine is as anti Russian as the Eastern part is pro Russian. That said, one should also know that the "core" of Ukraine is in the East. (four out of the five + one million big cities, the other being the capital; the most of the industries are located in the East; Ports and military instalations; etc.)
Western Ukraine is, I guess, mainly agricultural lands, traditionally Polish, that is.
But the power really rests on Kyev and Central Ukraine. And while they may be classified as "a subdivision of Russians" or "Little Russians", they for sure do not want to be part of Russia (unless something catastrophic happens).
From the maps I showed, what I think Conservative Swede highlighted is that Central Ukraine (Kyev's little kingdom) is leaning more towards Russia after having its heartbroken after its love affair with the "West"/U.S.A./NATO.
So, we have three distinct Ukraines. And that is a potentially dangerous situation, especially because Central Ukraine has proved to be very imperialistic towards both, Eastern and Western Ukraine.
"Yes but its just that contrarian journalists in Russia seem to have a nasty habit of falling off buildings, getting in the way of bullets etc. If Putin and his cronies are not responsible then who is?"
And I agree more with you on this than with Conservative Swede. The Media in Russia apears not to be as "free" as in the West. But, for what I have seen, it looks much more imparcial and apears to have been done a much better job than Western media.
And then, the people who "have accidents", as you described happen to be anti-Russians in practice. For instance, supporting Chechnya, attacking the Russian structure just because its fashionable, etc.
I would say - and this is very polemical - not that those people disearve what happened to them but that in a "sane" Nation, purely destructie behaviours like those of these personalities must not have a place in mainstream means of information.
Natalie,
"I study the Russian language and I love Russian history."
About Russian History, I thought they had some problems like we had with North Africans / Middle Eastern muslims but their case was much worst:
Mongols; Tatars; Kazhars; The Communists... wow... and it apears that the Turkic/Mongol peoples quiet Turkified for ever great part of former "European" lands...
Some Historians claim that the Mongols killed half of the Russian population, and they also used the "Black Plague" (Bubonic, you know..) as a biological weapon and after that, one third of the European population perished (Conservative estimates).
I think we as Europeans have a great debt for Russians as "guardians of the East". And Bela, I read that half of Hungarian population were people fleeing the Mongol invasion of the East...
Man, my History is as romantic as their's are bloody...
--------------------------
Bela, Putin is in charge, and will be for many years (he hopes) without doubt. However he's not that present as Conservative Swede has already said. We had here a man like that: António de Oliveira Salazar.
When he died the man who replaced him said: "We have had an extraordinary man in power for 28 years, now it's time for us to get used to normal men in power".
I'd say that more than a Tyran, Putin is an "extraordinary man".
Vasrahammer,
"I am particularly worried about the Baltic republics that are currently the target of hostile Kremlin propaganda."
The Balts have been behaving in a very Nazi way towards Russia. Literally. They have chosen to be on the E.U., friends of the Finns, Swedes and Germans.
I believe that if they don't go Saakashvili, there won't be major problems there.
And I doubt that Germany, Sweden and Finland aloud such States to go Saakashvili because those States will suffer in the long term.
So the Balts will tend to behave. And they are getting richer which means that Russians there can have good lifes instead of a need to rebel.
However, if the Russian population gets too numerous in some regions, interesting things may happen there.
Those peoples are doomed to live under Germanics or Russians. I do pitty them. They have to be clever enough to contain the two "evil empires". They really do.
Bela,
"During WWII the Ukraine people greeted the Nazi German troops as liberators; - with salt and bread.
I saw some old footage where this was presented.
What is the truth about this event and if it's true why did it happened?"
Of course it happened! I think that if Hitler had just treated Slavs a little better, he could pretty much have conquered all Eastern Europe. Many people on the West were eager to destroy Communism as well, including the British elite; Churchill had more in common with Hitler than with Stalin.
If Hitler had presented himself as a liberator to the East...
But didn't he believed the Slavs were inferior beings? Of course, inferiors to Germans I can understand, but low, low people?
It's interesting to notice that from the deaths caused by Nazis in Poland, some 60 to 75% were Jews, and the rest were mainly the "inteligentsia", the more learned and culturally active Poles.
To me, it looks more like a replacing of elites, aka as Germanisation (The Romans did the same to conquered tribes which rebelled often) than a war of extermination against Slavs (which undoubtedly happened against Jews).
Just some food for thought. However, this may be too... extreme (though real) and if you Baron (or Dymphna) want to dele it, please do it, I will understand.
Oh man, I really have to go... but it's so interesting here...
Eatyourbeans:
"That our loyalty should go to Moscow, and to not our own governments, which are dismantling our countries and our civilization for the sake of the NWO."
My loyalty is towards my Nation. I really do not care about my government. Sometimes, I think we are occupied (if only, I did not know the people in the street and the average opinion and lack of... well.) or under occupation.
However, I do not really care about the government. My loyalties are towards my Nation. If that means Moscow, so be it. It has been London and Oviedo and Rome in the past.
"And I doubt that Germany, Sweden and Finland aloud such States to go Saakashvili because those States will suffer in the long term."
Finland won't go Saakashvili, because the political elite grew up in the Finlandization era and still has a reflexive appeasement mode towards Russia.
And the Finns also know what it is like to be left alone to fight the Russians. The help that never came in 1939 is not easily forgotten. That's one of the reasons why people here don't necessarily trust NATO security guarantees. NATO membership doesn't score very well in the polls.
afonso h:
I understand what you say but my question was not the German but the Ukraine people's position.
Why were the Ukraine so hostile to the brotherly Slavic Russians, what is the basis of their animosity then - and now? At least in Western Ukraine...
@No2liberals:
"This again? PLEASE!
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq."
What an absolute joke. Please do not tell me you swallow this:
"Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated; "
Lies. They found nothing. To date. Cheney also stated that Iraq could launch a strike at the US in 45 mins. Lies. Lies. Lies. Go google what happened to Dr David Kelly in the UK for the truth.
You then say:
"And just how many barrels of oil does Afghanistan pump each day?
War for oil, hunh. Weak."
Erm, duh, try thinking about strategic military presence in a certain region where not only Iraq pumps oil and not only the US wants it. Something the Black Messiah is soon going to have a severe headache about. Pull out? Let's see.
As for:
"Repeating a lie, that W lied, makes you a liar."
Oh please, don't be so naive. He lied. Cheney lied. Rice lied. To deny it is to be obtuse. Or terminally ignorant. To suggest the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were to do with a threat, chem/bio weapons or to stop Saddam really does insult the intelligence and that the west has weak leaders who treat their people with such contempt explains much.
And you then commit the same redundant accusations as our common enemy with this tripe:
"I see you are contaminated with BDS, and antipathy towards the U.S.
Good luck with that.
We have our challenges, but we ain't dead yet, not by a long sight.
We've a long way to catch up to European standards, in those regards."
Why you mention Europe I have no idea. We are talking about the US. But Europe is indeed in dire straits, no worse than the US although it comforts you to think it. We in Europe have nationalist parties who are fighting back. The US has no such similar movements. I am not anti-US or a US hater, again you'd love it were it so but I am a realist who is very aware of the situation the US is now in. So lose the BS snidey digs and let's see why I say the US is a failed state that isn't as far off from dead as you think:
1. The US is bankrupt. It cannot pay its debts, it is impossible.
2. Tax payers have bailed out the banks whose greed and incompetence has caused a gloabl economic crisis. What a gloabl mess. Except for China who are now going to inject 375 billion dollars into improving their infrastructure, productivity and energy efficiency.
Nice timing.
3. Democracy is dead in the US. The media have just conducted a bias anti-white racist campaign to get what THEY want, a black president. The seething anti-white racism is so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it. Had McCain won, the riots would've still been going on now.
This election shows how clearly race is a divider in the US and I think it could well herald a second civil war. Add to this that US democracy is now controlled by the media and the money men, you have the death of democracy there.
It is ironic that the voters who have been most hurt by the credit crunch have elected a racist who was an activist in forcing banks to lend to poor blacks way back in the late seventies as their saviour, sorry, President.
4. The US is dependent on hostile nations for its energy needs. It is fighting wars it cannot afford against - well what? A security threat? Obviously not. So it has to be for energy. That their war has backfired spectacularly and was barely reported in the media during the second coming of Christ shouild sound an alarm. Should.
5. Mass immigration is going to cause the race that built a once great America to become a minority in their own land. All paid for by welfare where the productive have to pay an increasingly high price to support the ever demanding unproductive just as is happening here.
I could go on - about the influence of marxism and the emergence of China especially - but there is enough there I think to illustrate my point. I strongly believe that this is all part of a deliberate attack to destroy the west and I think what happened in South Africa and Zimbabwe is now coming to the US and we are now at the start of the demise of the US imperium.
These are not good times for western civilisation that's for sure.
Alfonso said:"The Balts have been behaving in a very Nazi way towards Russia. Literally."
This is as offensive to the Baltic portion of Russians' one hundred million victims and descendants as claiming that: "Jews have been behaving in a very Nazi way towards Germany".
Within living memory, Russians invaded and exterminated 10% of Baltic peoples overnight, mostly the intelligentsia, then sent another 10% including women and children on cattle cars to Siberia to slow death in work camps of starvation and exposure. Thousands of Balts escaped to the West with only the clothes on their back but they were the lucky ones compared to those left behind who lived under decades of repression the likes of which few of the posters above can even begin to imagine.
It takes a certain breed of people to sustain an inhumane regime of gulags, state snitches and imprisonment of dissidents in psychiatric hospitals, enslaving neighboring countries for DECADES until the whole rotting edifice crumbled. Not every nationality can manage it. Many Russians in fact long for those "good old days" of ruling others and have shrines to Stalin in their homes. Putin is also rehabilitating Stalin as a great Russian.
So by all means, give your own country over to the Russians to run. Those who have already had the experience don't wish to be selfish and deprive you of the same "privilege".
Talk about looking for salvation in the unlikeliest places.
Bela,
"Why were the Ukraine so hostile to the brotherly Slavic Russians, what is the basis of their animosity then - and now? At least in Western Ukraine..."
as I think I've said previously, Communism was a big beast. To Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Poles, wherever.
In Western Ukraine, especially anti-Russian feelings were high because those lands were Historically Polish (from Poland).
Ukrainians always thought (I think) that they are "better" Russians than the Russians themselves; just like people from more Northern lands here (and Spain as well) call people to their South "moors" in a depreciative way. This combined with Communism may have made Nazism quiet apeeling I think.
One even more strinking example is that of Italy. The richer Northern regions believe they are somewhat better than the poor Sicilians and South Itanians. They don't want to contribute ad aeternum to poorer regions once it prevents Northern Italy to achieve its "full potential". Add to this the fact that the "centre" of Italy is Rome, that is, the capital its not in the Northern Regions (in Europe it matters a lot. In the Americas I think this happen more in Argentina then in other big countries). You see, that's how Lega Nord started, a party for the independence of North Italy which is somewhat cultural distinct and is the "economical engine" of Italy. You can see that in football. Maradona did a lot for the South Italians who felt they were finally proven they were not that worst than Northern Italians.
Ukraine has also Historically been one of the richest Russian regions. Especially before the Industrialisation (that happened after the Communist revolution) The craddle of Russia itself. And somewhat distinct (as Belarus, as Saint Petresburg, as Moscow or Novgorod or Vladivostok are distinct from each other. In my view, not that distinct to form a separate Nation.) from the rest of Russia.
I think these are the reasons for what you mentioned.
laine
Your stated fact mean nothing to some people on this blog. They are captives of an insane worship of a country they never visited, know nothing about, much less lived in and whatever mass genocide the Soviets committed is justified because it was for a good cause and - anyway it has no bearing on the glorious present or may be never happened.
Not even witnesses like Solzhenitsyn can shed light to the darkness they live in. They would not read it.
It reveals the mindset of the deniers of the Holocaust when seeing the corpses proves nothing to them.
It's a good psychological study as to why people suddenly develop inexplicable admiration for things that exist only in their imagination.
It started with Cervantes' Don Quijote but still lives on forever.
Laine.
Stalin was not Russian. He was a Georgian. However, he was able to make Russia win what they call "The Great Patriotic War" and I understand people give credit to gim for it.
You see, what happened to the West of Germany since 1933 was a children's thing when compared to what happened in the Eastern front(s).
"It takes a certain breed of people to sustain an inhumane regime of gulags, state snitches and imprisonment of dissidents in psychiatric hospitals, enslaving neighboring countries for DECADES until the whole rotting edifice crumbled. Not every nationality can manage it."
Try to put a Communist in power and you'll see for yourself, China, the USSR, Cambodja came to mine. It apears that there are plenty of Nationalities that do indeed manage it.
And please, cease to blame the Soviet Union on Russians. I heard there were more Russians supporting the whites than the reds. Talk to Bela about the inhumane people's ethnicity. Or Winston Churchill...
Also, see this
And no people, I'll not blame Russians for Communism nor will I blame Germans on Nazism nor for the Holocaust for that matter.
It seems... morally wrong, don't you think? No? I would very much like to know why.
Russia is interesting to us because it is the only powerful ethnically European country whose leadership class has not imbibed cultural Marxism. It is bound to become more interesting as America and it's bootlickers in Europe are now represented by a non-Westerner, Barack Obama.
"It takes a certain breed of people"
This is racism on the part of Laine. Just for once we have encountered the real thing.
Harvest of Sorrow by Robert Conquest is fairly good presentation of what the Marxist Leninists (or "Russians") did to ("the") Ukraine.
Bela,
Not even witnesses like Solzhenitsyn can shed light to the darkness they live in. They would not read it.
It reveals the mindset of the deniers of the Holocaust when seeing the corpses proves nothing to them.
To what are you referring to here? I have not read any Gulag Denialism on this blog. Besides, you're pro-genocide yourself as long as those being killed (W. Europeans) deserve it in your opinion.
Someone with the word homophobic in his handle is hardly likely to be an expert on racism. The last time I looked, Russians and I were the same race.
I'm waiting for the frequent bashers on this site of Americans who did NOT commit genocide in the past century to be called racists in the same loosey-goosey inapplicable way.
I disagree that any nation/people can carry out an equivalent slaughter and oppression with a few so-inclined leaders. For another example, I don't think Canadians have it in them to slay each other on the streets with machetes as Hutus did to Tutsis in Rwanda. That observation on the basis of comparative history doesn't make me a racist.
Things do change. For instance, contemporary Germans are probably incapable of the Holocaust now and the Japanese of their aggressive militarism. Russians (and the Chinese) have not become pacific in the same way, mainly because they were never held to account or made to feel guilty for their collective crimes as the other nations were.
Russians made the biggest blot on the human record in the 20th century, outdoing even Mao's communist Chinese and have never answered for it as the Germans did.
What HH just termed racism was exercised in its severest form by his beloved Russians who invaded neighboring peoples, decimating them and starting a program of intense Russification by deporting natives and bringing in Russians who were given first rights to jobs, housing etc. How can you demonstrate more hatred of a people than to try to stamp out their very culture and superimpose your own by force?
And yet the word racist would never pass HH's lips referring to his beloved Russians, only to any of their justified critics.
HH has no argument, (not even he can erase or justify what Russians did) merely the lowest invective.
I will try to explain the Ukranian sentiment.
After the mongols invaded Rus, they have destroyed Kiyev, but as the advantage of the mongols was in their mobility in the open field, they did not want to stay in Ukrain where it was covered in forest, same as in the North (Novgorod). They set up their strongholds on the outskirts of the steep e.g. Kazan, from where they raided the current Russian regions.
The Ukranian domains were weakend and obsorbed into the Lithuano-Polish Kingdom. Obviously they were not happy with that arrangement. In the border area between the extended Polish kingdom and the Mongol domains appeared resistance called Kazaks which is derived from a turkik word for free men. These people were fearsome wariors. They would raid all the surounding lands and robe them. They were very mixed racially as they have atacked turkik people too and stole their women. Arguably these people are the foundation of the current Ukranian nationalism, plus the Polish oriented nationalism that based in the western Ukrain where people were or became Catholic, and speak language closer to Polish then to Russian.
Novgorod was the only independent Russian State after the colapse of Rus. It was a trade City with a Republican style of governance. However Moscow state started to become Prosperous and Strong, As mongols became weaker, it asserted more control on the surounding slavic people. Eventually it subjugated the city of Great Novgorod.
In Reallity there is no sudden difference between Ukranian and Russian. As you travel from Russia to Ukrain you woud find that People who live in Eastern Ukrain are not entirely Russian but they do have the idea of the fact that we are the same Race and Culture, when you travel further west you will come across the Kazak type who are real Ukranian Nationalist, and in the West people are not really Ukrainians as they Catholics.
Funny enough the Kazaks in Russia (the ones who migrated from central Ukrain and settled on the Russian southern borders to guard against muslims) are very Nationalistic Russian.
As you know the word Pogrom refering to lynching of Jews is from Ukrain, Majority of jews lived in Ukrain, and ukranians were peasants, Jews for many reasons made enemies amongst ukranian peasants and Kazaks. So they commited alot of crimes against Jews, not Russians as there were hardly any Jews in the Russian territory. You would find that Ukranian nationalists are strongly unti Russian and Unti Jewish. Thats the main reason why they cooperated with Nazis.
Its really comes down to common defence and unification against your alien enemies but loss of some of your personal freedom and individualism, or fighting for you individualis at the expence of greater common strength. The Russians represent common stregth the Ukranians individul freedom. Russians had to suffer under Mongols, the Ukranians simply had to be good boys living in poland. Different circumstances, different mentalities.
I find it anoying when people start saying things like Russians were not held to account for what they have done. What have done?
Under the communism every repuplic were allowed to have their "cultures", Muslims were allowed to have Islam, so did Georgians were allowed to have their culture, Russian traditional culture was practicly erased. I consider that the only genocyde perpetrated by the soviets was against Russian people, not only did our people died in greater numbers, but our self awareness as Russians were damaged. You can easily find multi racial marriages in Russia where Russian woman is married off into a different culture, not so in other soviet republics.
You accuse Russians of being to much soviet, may be thats true but for the reason you imply, but because of genocyde against Russians and Russian Culture.
Bela,
Have you heard? ...
You think like a dinosaur. You think that if Putin controls "the party" that he controls the whole country. But the point is exactly that the governing party does not have any sort of tight control of the country, the way "the party" used to have in an earlier epoch.
Please DON'T read your OWN news, try other sources time to time.
The "news" that Putin will serve as prime minster of Russia is over six months old. It's interesting that you tell me to follow the news... Good that you make some updates at least...
'
The countries like Georgia and Baltic states have benefited a great deal at the expence of greater Russia. Alot of Funds went to those areas, the life in those places was much better.
If you stop linking Russia and USSR as one entity, you will find that Russia was the one that was raped by the communists, not the other areas.
@Laine
Your posts are as offensive as they are ignorant. Your aggrandisation of the US needs to be exposed for the patriotic flag waving dog vomit that it is.
You state:
"It takes a certain breed of people to sustain an inhumane regime of gulags, state snitches and imprisonment of dissidents in psychiatric hospitals, enslaving neighboring countries for DECADES until the whole rotting edifice crumbled. Not every nationality can manage it."
A certain breed of people. There is a nasty feel to this high-browed remark. Can I ask what "certain breed of people" it takes to:
Enslave people because of their color, refusing them human rights, refusing to share public spaces and carrying out lynchings outside the law. Remind me, how many years did the US enslave and persecute blacks for? DECADES or CENTURIES?
Wipe out, almost to extinction, the native people of North America cheating them out of their own land as you go. Lovely stuff.
Indiscriminately bomb from high altitude using cluster bombs innocent men women and children in Iraq, whose people had not harmed a single US citizen just because you want regime change to legitimise the US oil grab which appears to have spectacularly failed at enormous cost both in terms of US lives as well as dollars.
Demonise an entire people, a once christian ally who saved US pilots during WWII, conducting a 78 day bombing campaign deliberately targeting civilians all to support an Islamic expansion into Europe. Furthermore, planning and conducting "Operation Storm" a US planned ethnic cleansing of the Krajina of 250,000 Serb civilians siding with a fascist entity, the vile Ustashe. All based on a pack of lies.
Believe me I could go on (Vietnam, NASA, globalisation and the banking system being worthy examples). But the point Laine isn't US bashing as a narrow-mind would view this but as a warning about moral piety. You see if you're going to demonise a people because of their history and paint your nation in a morally superior light, make sure the history of your nation is squeaky clean.
And sadly, the US LIKE MOST NATIONS is anything but so trying to demonise Russia for its past is pure folly.
China represents a far more serious threat and it's time you and people like you woke up to how things are changing. The cold war has ended, China is waging an economic war and is winning it rather easily. Maybe because Americans are still paralysed by fear of the Great Bear. But unless the US wakes up real quick - and I just don't see this happening - then the dragon will devour the eagle.
Rochs,
C. Swede please note that the countries i cited were russian-aligned or had large russian minorities in it.
Absolutely. Russian minorities, majorities or simply peoples who want to stay close to Russia. I agree with your list, and there are more. Unlike the McCain dogmatics think, there are many peoples who feel good about staying close to Russia (and then there are others who certainly don't).
Per Example Belarus is orbiting Russia for quite a long time, if Russia don't swallow it soon it may just slip from her grasp.
CIS is a good enough institution good enough for Russia and her friends to stick together, sort of like NATO.
Belarus won't slip. And there's no need for Russia to push any issue like this. From the point of view of Belarus however, yes many feel that would want to join Russia. And then I don't think Russia would say no. But as I said there no need for Russia to push such issues. Pushing issues is McCain/Saakashvili style, and a perfect way to shoot oneself in the foot.
And if (hypothetically) any country, e.g. Armenia, or more likely Moldaviam, would turn to the West instead. Well, then Russia has enough friends anyway. However, Ukraine is a wholly different issue, being Russian heartland. Russia would never let that happen. Neither would the majority of the people of Ukraine, btw. If things would be pushed in Ukraine (from either direction) the country would split in two pieces. Better not to push...
Germany had such a guy whose stated priority was looking after the interests of his people and who deemed it necessary to invade neighbors out of national interest and that didn't work out so well.
This is the core doctrine of the PC spell that subdues us to self-loathing and suicidal ways in the West. Congratulations for having invoked it, Laine!
"Russia was the one that was raped by the communists, not the other areas."
No one has suffered like Russia.
Laine is the last person to be lecturing us about Hitler.
What a blog. Here the bigots, just for once, are actually called out on their B.S.
Henrik,
One reason I always point to the usefulness of some of the things Putin etc. do is simple: We can learn from it. We can care better for our interests if we refrain from being global police and look to our own interests first.
Another is that the successes of the Putin regime (take Georgia) often point back at failures of Western / American ones. Again lessons to be learned.
Two excellent points, indeed! And the same points that I have made before. We share the same spirit here (even though I'm probably more of a sucker for Russian composers and writers).
I would add yet another point in the same spirit:
Considering how dominant America is, coupled with how unwisely (understatement) they act, it good to have a power that is actually challenging them, from within the European/Christian cultural domain. Anyone! If America would never meet any resistance, what would make them stop up and rethink?
It's like a market situation with effective monopoly. Any emerging competitor is good for the market. Even if their products at this point are of lower quality. It creates a better dynamic for the market. And here we have a player that is less powerful, but has a superior strategy. Anyone who wants to survive on this market, in the longer run, will be forced to adapt this superior strategy.
It's surely better to be pushed into an awakening by Russia, then by Islam.
Afonso,
Fogo you too, ha ha ha!
(sorry, just couldn't resist :-)
And Belarus, Eastern Ukraine, if there is a majority European part of Kazakhistan, South Osseta, could all go to Russia.
They all already belong to Russia for all practical purposes. Except for Eastern Ukraine. But that is also just a matter of time.
Eatyourbeansandminetoo,
That our loyalty should go to Moscow, and to not our own governments
I think we should be cautious about taking that last step. Listen to Henrik's points. We should learn from Russia. We should let them inspire us. Hey, we should even learn Russian.
But if we truly do learn from Russia, the lesson is not to shift loyalties, the lesson is not to give up the ambition to take care of our own. On the contrary!
Yes we should learn from Russia, and be inspired by her, even admire her. But that's it. We should never give up on our own.
However, if the West implodes completely, it is also good to know that Russia is there as a last resort.
The thing is the Osetians are not Ethnic Russians. To an everage Russian who is not familiar with Osetians they will appear similar to Chechens. I dont know whether Osetians very Criminal or not but I am sure that Russians in general would be suspecious of people who look Caucusu like.
The thing between Osetia and Russia is not based on ethnicity, yes the bigger part of Osetian nation is located on Russian Territory but they are not Russians unless they specificly decide to become Russian.
I guess the Osetian dont want to be part of Georgia because since the Georgia is a small nation, it will push its nationality onto osetians much stronger then Russians will. It is funny how very close people dont like eachother more then the alien culture as long as it doesnt bother them.
Bela to Afonso,
Why were the Ukraine so hostile to the brotherly Slavic Russians, what is the basis of their animosity then - and now? At least in Western Ukraine..
You have problem to conceptually differentiate between Communists and Russians. But Afonso doesn't, and he already eloquently answered your question.
Moreover, neither the Ukrainians share your deficiency, and quite as Afonso know the difference between Russians and Communists.
Afonso,
Ukrainians always thought (I think) that they are "better" Russians than the Russians themselves; just like people from more Northern lands here (and Spain as well) call people to their South "moors" in a depreciative way.
And quite as Swedes are better Germans than the Germans themselves ;-)
Bela,
and whatever mass genocide the Soviets committed is justified because it was for a good cause and - anyway it has no bearing on the glorious present or may be never happened.
Yes, it's horrible how Baron Bodissey is leading the crowd by excusing the Soviet mass genocides in is article above, isn't it?
Not even witnesses like Solzhenitsyn can shed light to the darkness they live in.
I wish Solzhenitsyn would shed some light into your mind. Poor man, you do not even understand what you are invoking.
Afonso,
And no people, I'll not blame Russians for Communism nor will I blame Germans on Nazism nor for the Holocaust for that matter.
I do not blame the Germans for Hitler, as I do not blame the Arabs for Muhammad, or the Russians for Stalin. They were each the first victims of their evil "mastermind" leader.
Btw, Hitler was Austrian and Stalin Georgian, of course.
Avery Bullard,
Russia is interesting to us because it is the only powerful ethnically European country whose leadership class has not imbibed cultural Marxism.
This provides Eatyourbeans with the explanation of how he could turn from a Reagan conservative to a pro-Russian. He never changed, the world around him did.
Conservative Swede,
Oh, no fear. I'm not about to exchange the Stars and Stripes for the Russian Tricolor. And for now the only step I'd suggest beyond those you have mentioned is that we bring more Russians into our conservations. They are only now climbing out of the hell we may be falling into. They can be our Virgil.
Avery: "interesting" is exactly the right word.
"I don't think Canadians have it in them to slay each other on the streets with machetes as Hutus did to Tutsis in Rwanda."
Fair enough Laine.
But I would therfore conclude that Canadians were the exception. And, what happened to the Natives? Yeah, I know they are recovering, but, recovering from what?
"Germans are probably incapable of the Holocaust now and the Japanese of their aggressive militarism."
I doubt this a lot. Not even animals can be domesticated in this way, what about Humans.
------------------------------
Russyk,
I hope you have mistaken Khazak for KHAZAR. Is it true?
And what I would like to call atention in your statements is that Russian culture has been extremely bloody. Me myself was not aware of this until recently. You people real need some "new blood" (Belarussians, East Ukrainians, Ossetians) so that you can be further Europeanised while retaining your very own culture, that of Tolsotoi, not that of Lenine.
And sorry about my "kind of eugenic" statements.
By the way, I loved my code word for commenting: ANTINESS, that means, anti nihilism, right? Delightfull.
Afonso,
You Say:
I hope you have mistaken Khazak for KHAZAR. Is it true?
no I havent been mistaken Khazar were turkik people who lived in the southern Russia and who became Jews.
The word Kazak simply means a free man, Kazaks of Kazakhstan are Mongol/Turkish people who were called Kazaks because they didnt submit to any Khan for a long time.
Kazaks of Ukrain are slavic (Russian/Ukranian) people who lived in the no man zone (so to say) between Polish, Russian and Turkish empires. They were fighting against anyone who tried to subjegate them. They raided into all three of these empires. The name Kazak was used for them by the Turks and it stuck.
On the side of my father I am Kazak of those that were guarding the Russian southern borders against The Othomans.
Russky,
"The thing is the Osetians are not Ethnic Russians."
No they aren't, you're right. And who cares? If Russians can stand so many different ethnicities and Ossetians want to be inside Russia, so be it. Besides, Ossetians are pretty much Europeans and distinct from other Caucasian peoples. To concede an independent Ossetia today may signify problems in Russian Ossetia tommorow if the Southern Ossetians turn propserous. And I think Ossetialand would be a very small and fragile country to be aloud independence. Yet, at least.
"The thing between Osetia and Russia is not based on ethnicity"
Yes it is. Classical Empire move. I'll explain. Ossetians are not Russians. True. However North Ossetians are part of the Russian Empire (they have their little republic and stuff) and South Ossetians are not. It apears that North Ossetians are better than South Ossetians. It would be good to everybody to unite both. More, given the situation in the caucasus, Ossetians appear like an advanced post of European Civilisation: white, Christian and with History. With the hell, Ossetians (Alans) passed over my Nation along with the Germans, they left a legacy here. They are Europeans for long, they just happen not to be Slavs. But quiet frankly, they look good as well.
To have such an ally under our wing in the Caucasus would be good. Both would win. Both Ossetians and Russians have suffered a lot in the Caucasus at the hands of muslims. It was yesterday that the bomb exploded in Vladikavkavsk, right? And Beslan... that really made me hate muslims a little bit more. I mean, I look to 9/11 and I say: wow, what powerfull mind did this? I look to Beslan and can only see pure evil, even if I try not to.
(Of course, I don't have any kind of joy with 9/11 events)
"And quite as Swedes are better Germans than the Germans themselves ;-)"
I am not kidding. It is exactly that!
Russkiy,
Thank you for the clarifications on the Khazar thing.
Just a question: Are those Kazakhs, Cossacks (I don't know how it is spelled on English, but in Portuguese is "Cossacos")?
The words look alike a lot. Thank you.
And by the way, are these "Cossacks" always Russian/Slavic or they can be like, mercenaries but with their own culture, like, of any race or religion?
If anyone cares to know the difference in language between Russians and Ukranians or Belarusians for that matter, the main difference are the Polish lone words, all the rest are well understood by Russians.
Honestly, I think I could learn to speak Ukranian within a week if I put my mind to it. The main problem would be not the Polish lone words but the pronunciation of the common words between Russian and Ukranian. Its like I would have to speak English with Scotish accent kind of thing.
Afonso,
You are right Cossaks is what I reffered to as Kazaks. Those particular People were Ukranian/Russian. The reason why I say Ukranian/Russian is not because I am trying to imply the racial background of these two people, which is true none the less, but because people were running away from the Polish Control lands and from Russian controled Lands into that area, So the people that made up kazaks were both from the Current Ukrain and Russia.
In Any case they were Orthodox Christians and their loyalty was religious in many respects. Since Poland was catholic thy opposed poland and sided with Russia.
Big proportion of Western Ukranians are Catholic, so their Nationalism is derived from identification with Poland then with Cossaks
Actually, I've asked that to Ukrainians about language. They say it's different but almost the same. Like the difference between Portuguese and Spanish they say... but, after mastering Portuguese better than Africans Portuguese speaking immigrants, they cannot understand Spanish... How they say it's similar then, is something I never grasped to understand.
Thank you for the clarification and the extra info.
Afonso,
I dont want to sound Ethnocentric here, but what I am going to say probably going to anger many Ukranians.
Back in the 18th century before major literaly works have been written in Russian, and the Russian elite spoke French, The Russian language spoken by serfs and lower levels of society was probably much more closer to Ukranian interms of Pronunciation.
But the Russian language was perfected a great deal in the 19th century. The nobility that used to speak french started to use Russian, many french loan words are now in Russian.
Ukranian language on the other hand to my ears anyway, sounds very qoloquel, like when you go to far away vilage where people have small exposure to civilisation. Many Russians claim that since the main vacab of the Ukranian language is the same as Russian, that since main points of difference are the quontity of Polish lone words and French loan words in Ukranian and Russian respectively, the Ukranian and Russian do not constitute two distinct languages but rather Ukranian being vilage language that did not under go modernisation.
Now this is from Russian Perspective, The Ukranian nationalist perspective goes something like that:
Russians were not even Slavs. We were various ethnical groups that spoke finish and turkik languages.
The slavic language only came to Russians after Moscow conquared novgorod, and therefore The current russia is the extension of the mongol envasion on the Rus. They actually blame russians for usorping the name of Rus in the name of our ethnicity, which is what Ukranians woud want to have used.
Infact Ukrain as a name is derived from a polish word for Borderland. So the Ukranians are borderland people rather then a nation of theirown (by implication).
The truth is somewhere in between of these two worlviews.
Hey Conservative Swede:
There was an angel, a real angel, singing in Swedish on Prairie Home Companion this past weekend, 8Nov2008.
You can hear her in the 2nd and last hour of the show at www.prairiehome.org . She sang two songs, the first of which was introduced as a patriotic song, accompanied by piano. The second song, toward the last part of the second hour was beautiful, but I could not understand the words. I do hope you enjoy it.
A translation of the two songs would be a joy to receive, but not necessary. You may have to download RealPlayer to hear it. But I'm not sure.
Skol!
Hi Paul,
First song is "Ack Värmeland Du Sköna", may be roughly translated as "Oh Värmland Thou Art Beautiful".
The second song is in Spanish:
Estrellita
Afonso,
The Kazakhs are a turkish people, Cazaques in portuguese, the Cossacks are a slavic people. Strangely enought many of the Kazakhs are orthodox christians.
"The countries like Georgia and Baltic states have benefited a great deal at the expence of greater Russia. Alot of Funds went to those areas, the life in those places was much better.
If you stop linking Russia and USSR as one entity, you will find that Russia was the one that was raped by the communists, not the other areas."
-------------------
There's no doubt that some Russians ended up suffering greatly from communism that other Russians inflicted on them.
However, the other areas beg to differ from your Russian textbooks which were shall we say, incomplete. There were no net funds going from Moscow to their SSR's, at least not the Baltics. The net coinage was all in the other direction. Russia was draining its subjugated border states dry plus overwhelming them with ethnic Russians in a systematic russification program. Despite this, the Baltic peoples dragged themselves and the colonizing Russians up to the highest standard of living in the old Soviet Union. Their reward was more Russians flowing in, attracted by the economic best of a bad lot of choices. Even when Balts regained their independence, the vast majority of ethnic Russians chose to stay there even without their special privileges rather than migrate back to the "superior" society posters here describe.
Speaking of the Russophiles, I agree with Bela that you have no idea what you're talking about. Defiant Lion knows better than millions of immigrants who have voted with their very lives and (surprise) have never sought to live in his much admired Russia but in the United States that he so thoroughly reviles. I'm talking about the highly educated law-abiding type of immigrant or refugee of the past.
It's reminiscent of an old political cartoon showing people fleeing across the barbed wire of the Iron Curtain to the West while an emaciated man dressed in rags waves the skeleton of a chicken at them and shouts: "Come back you fools, this is Paradise!" You do realize that Russians didn't need armed sentries along their borders to keep people out but to keep them in!
Presently oil money is saving Putin's bacon and papering over the problems, but high quality immigrants are still not seeking out the Russian "Paradise" despite your glowing recommendations. Let me know when the direction of traffic changes.
As for comparisons between nations, let's at least stay in the same century, shall we? In addition, it is easy to criticize others for racism against blacks when you have none of your own. Ask the African blacks sent to Moscow by their marxist governments for their university education how they were looked on by ethnic Russians.
DL, HH and other Russophiles here should go live in Russia (if they'll have them) and admire them up close and personal and remember to criticize the government's shortcomings in the same way as you do in the West...
Another old joke that still resonates: An American tells a Russian that he is so free he can stand on a street corner and shout that his President is a fool. The Russian claims the same. "I can also stand on a corner and shout that your president is a fool".
Lastly, some here should try to resolve the cognitive dissonance between looking on Russia as a last bastion for white folk (wrong again, as the anemic ethnic Russian birthrate is being overwhelmed by the non-ethnics, Muslims included, who can no longer be kept out of Moscow as they once were) and throwing the word racist around at other people indiscriminately or silently approving.
I see HH still hasn't been able to come up with anything better than name-calling. There have been long threads on this site concluding that the charge of racism has been made meaningless and is the last refuge of the verbally inept. Perhaps Homophobic missed those.
"What an absolute joke."
Only to those who don't know what they are talking about.
"Lies. They found nothing. To date."
Once again, it is you who is lying. So, what they did find, you wouldn't have any objections to burying in your yard, or in your local schools playground?
Try doing some research before you shoot your know nothing mouth off.
Google me this: russia iraq syria wmd, and you will find quite a bit of info. Yes, your dear-dear friend the Russians involved in arming our enemies...again.
"Erm, duh"
That's the most lucid thing you've said so far. It was you who made the ridiculous claim above, about Afghanistan and Iraqi oil, not I.
"Or terminally ignorant."
That those words roll out of your head, after the nonsense you have spewed so far, indicates to me, you are projecting.
I mention Europe, because you claim to be European, dingus.
"I am not anti-US or a US hater"
I don't believe you, based on the comments you have made.
"1. The US is bankrupt. It cannot pay its debts, it is impossible."
Debts haven't all been called in. We still have a fourteen trillion dollar economy, a history of productivity. What country could pay off all their obligations, if called? Reaching on this one.
"2. Tax payers have bailed out the banks whose greed and incompetence has caused a gloabl economic crisis. What a gloabl mess. Except for China who are now going to inject 375 billion dollars into improving their infrastructure, productivity and energy efficiency."
You clearly don't know enough about how this financial mess was created to comment on it. Your absurdity continues with your comment on China.
China unveils economic stimulus plan.
"China announced a huge economic stimulus plan on Sunday aimed at bolstering its weakening economy, a sweeping move that could also help fight the effects of the global slowdown."
I recommend studying more, and talking less.
"3. Democracy is dead in the US."
Enough!
I will read no further. You are truly a waste of time, and a waste of oxygen.
You are hence forth in the *scroll over* zone.
If I feel the need for a brain cramp, I will read Daily Kos, instead of you.
There were no net funds going from Moscow to their SSR's, at least not the Baltics.
You are right about the Baltics but not about all of the USSR. BTW Latvians were much more heavily over represented, per capita, than Russians in the early days of Bolshevism.
Russia was draining its subjugated border states dry plus overwhelming them with ethnic Russians in a systematic russification program
True of the post-war USSR. On the other hand Russia lost large parts of the Ukraine as well under the Ukrainian Krushchev but that's normal in multicultural empires. Of course, that empire does not exist anymore and so it is largely irrelevant to Russia's role in the world today.
Speaking of the Russophiles, I agree with Bela that you have no idea what you're talking about. Defiant Lion knows better than millions of immigrants who have voted with their very lives and (surprise) have never sought to live in his much admired Russia but in the United States that he so thoroughly reviles
Immigrants are mostly motivated by a desire to make more money. That's why so many Georgians, and Turkic peoples in Central Asia live in Moscow and other Russian cities. So what? Who cares if the US is - for now - a better place to live in than Russia?
I live in neither country and like many posters care about the big picture: The US is successfully pushing an globalist multiculturalist agenda. Russia does not have the power or influence to turn Western Europeans, Australians, and Canadians into Russians. They don't care either.
It's reminiscent of an old political cartoon showing people fleeing across the barbed wire of the Iron Curtain to the West while an emaciated man dressed in rags waves the skeleton of a chicken at them and shouts: "Come back you fools, this is Paradise!" You do realize that Russians didn't need armed sentries along their borders to keep people out but to keep them in!
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics DOES NOT EXIST! You are still living in the Cold War. (Incidentally, Russia is probably more capitalistic than much of the West. Their flat tax rate is much lower than the income tax rates most Westerners pay).
laine:Presently oil money is saving Putin's bacon and papering over the problems, but high quality immigrants are still not seeking out the Russian "Paradise" despite your glowing recommendations. Let me know when the direction of traffic changes.
They're getting some immigrants from their periphery - the only part of the world they seem to want to dominate, unlike the US government. In other words people who are familiar with Russian. Of course they are not as high quality as the Mexicans and Hmong America is attracting.
Besides why would they want or need immigrants? Russians aren't suckers for the American idea that 'we need immigrants to remain vibrant'. Russians are happy to remain Russian, warts and all.
DL, HH and other Russophiles here should go live in Russia (if they'll have them) and admire them up close and personal and remember to criticize the government's shortcomings in the same way as you do in the West...
I can't speak for anyone else but I have no desire to live in Russia...or America. Defending Russia's actions against Georgia and its resistance to Soros globalism doesn't mean people want to move to Russia. That's silly. During the Cold War I supported the US against the USSR but I certainly never wanted to move to the US.
Another old joke that still resonates: An American tells a Russian that he is so free he can stand on a street corner and shout that his President is a fool. The Russian claims the same. "I can also stand on a corner and shout that your president is a fool".
Another Soviet joke.
Try calling Obama a fool in a black area or an American college campus!
Ask the African blacks sent to Moscow by their marxist governments for their university education how they were looked on by ethnic Russians.
I doubt they were able to push the Russians around and make them feel racial guilt so many brainwashed Americans feel. That's another one up Russia has on America.
Thank you once more Russkiy.
"They actually blame russians for usorping the name of Rus in the name of our ethnicity, which is what Ukranians woud want to have used."
As Nordic Scandinavians are better than Germans, Northern South Europeans are better than Southern South Europeans, it would not be difficult to grasp that Western Russians, or Slavs, are also better than the Eastern ones.
And of course, English are better than Sothern English, Eastern English, Celtic peoples...
Whenever the FC Porto comes South 300 Kilometers to play with a Lisbon club, they always say they will conquer the "lands of the muslims" again.
I only pitty is that so many times they do conquer us in the field like we were muslims...
As long as these feelings are not exacerbated, I think they are quiet healty. That's why I see independent "regions" like those a dangerous precedent, because they create no good out of once healty feelings of "competition".
No2Liberals:
What a childish gutter reply.
"What an absolute joke."
Only to those who don't know what they are talking about."
And you quite clearly do not.
You are lying through your teeth. You are also playing fast with facts to your discredit. Cheney and your president claimed Iraq could strike the US in 45 minutes. Do you deny this?
They claimed the Iraqis (that's IRAQIS not RUSSIANS or SYRIANS) had Weapons of Mass destruction and that quote "We know where they are it's just a matter of time"
Where are they? 5 years on and we're all waiting. And now you bang on about Russia and Syria. Shoehorning, this wasn't mentioned at the time was it?
Here read this:
Blair KNEW Iraq Had No WMDs
And this:
Lies of Iraq
This is just childish:
"Yes, your dear-dear friend the Russians"
Please. Grow up.
If you want to ask a question about duplicity, go research how the US sided with Al Qaeda, the Saudis and Iran to create Kosova. All while the same people were sending home US troops in body bags.
""Erm, duh"
That's the most lucid thing you've said so far. It was you who made the ridiculous claim above, about Afghanistan and Iraqi oil, not I."
Twice as lucid as your childish insults. What claim did I make about Afghanistan oil? The US military went to these lands to secure Iraqi oil and to create a presence there. Think about Iran. They certainly didn't go there out of any concern for security or out of altruism.
""Or terminally ignorant."
That those words roll out of your head, after the nonsense you have spewed so far, indicates to me, you are projecting."
Nonsense? I think not, that seems to be more your bag. Or that you are blinded by patriotism and in denial and resorting to personal insults because your position is so weak.
"I mention Europe, because you claim to be European, dingus."
Comprehension alert. This debate is about the US and Russia. Where I come from is totally irrelevant.
And dingus? DINGUS? How old are you - 5? 6? Dingus :-))
"I am not anti-US or a US hater
I don't believe you, based on the comments you have made."
Well I am not and if you weren't so upset sbout what is reasoned criticism of the US you'd see that the reason I am so critical is because the US is betraying everything it once was. But you take it personally and then shriek "hater" just like an outraged Muslim or a loony lefty does to avoid facing serious issues and kill debate. Doesn't work with me at all.
"I recommend studying more, and talking less."
So as the US tax-payer bails out greedy and incompetent bankers, China injects its cash into its infrastructure after securing the lions share of the oil in Iraq, a war which has cost the US billions and China buttons and you say I should study more? I think you are missing the issue here. In fact you're missing two rather serious issues.
But this is a display of pig-ignorance and a sign of an intellectual bankrupt:
"I will read no further. You are truly a waste of time, and a waste of oxygen."
To get brain cramp you need to possess a brain. That you resort to such a nasty and low attack shames you.
Democracy is dead in the US and you can thank your media for it. The same media who has dumbed you down into an intellectual dwarf who cannot present a cohesive argument without resorting to the sewer.
You are a cyber hard guy who acts the big I am hiding behind your keyboard. Such a coward deserves and receives my utter contempt.
"You are hence forth in the *scroll over* zone."
That's the way yellow belly, run away because you can't face a fight. Defeating you was too easy thanks for the sport though.
I see dl addressed me again.
I know it's difficult to comprehend, but I will try and explain it once again.
"You are hence forth in the *scroll over* zone."
I know you have difficulty with comprehension, so I will repeat it whenever I see you address me.
Hey no2liberals:
Cheers for reading and paraphrasing me :-)
You can repeat anything as much as you want but if you think you can post crap and insult me like the snidey little cyber-warrior you are think again. But I'm quite happy to help you make an idiot of yourself and you're doing a great job.
Hey talking of comprehension:
Worked out what democracy means yet?
Found any WMDs in Iraq yet?
Like shooting fish in a barrel :-)
*scroll*
This thread sadly degenerated into something akin to a ship of fools.
DailyKos, Democratic Undergound anyone?
Afonso,
Whenever the FC Porto comes South 300 Kilometers to play with a Lisbon club, they always say they will conquer the "lands of the muslims" again.
Yes, it's the same kind of talk in Spain. The more south, the more "moros".
Actually from a Swedish perspective the Southern craziness starts already in Denmark, so I cannot help but muttering "moros" to myself at times when I'm there. Obviously, I have no one to share this thought with, however :-)
Avery Bullard to Laine:
Try calling Obama a fool in a black area or an American college campus!
LOL! Yeah, do it Laine! Live your dream!
Laine wrote:
Ask the African blacks sent to Moscow by their marxist governments for their university education how they were looked on by ethnic Russians.
You appear to be genuinely PC, Laine. Earlier in this thread your European-national-strength-equals-Hitler PC shtick, and now this!
Avery's answer is of course precisely to the point:
I doubt they were able to push the Russians around and make them feel racial guilt so many brainwashed Americans feel. That's another one up Russia has on America.
So if your desire is truly to be pushed around by people of another race, do the Obama-is-a-fool routine as suggested above. Only in America...
Def Lion,
Found any WMDs in Iraq yet?
Quite your leftist routine already! It was stale already back in 2003.
Laine said:
"However, the other areas beg to differ from your Russian textbooks which were shall we say, incomplete. There were no net funds going from Moscow to their SSR's, at least not the Baltics"
My comment comes not from the textbook but from the personal experience of my father. He was a manager of a large construction company in USSR. Equipment such as Cranes, Excavators and such were distributed to various areas by the central government. Well what went to latvia was much, much more then went to other areas of similar population density.
Laine Said:"Russia was draining its subjugated border states dry plus overwhelming them with ethnic Russians in a systematic russification program. Despite this, the Baltic peoples dragged themselves and the colonizing Russians up to the highest standard of living in the old Soviet Union. Their reward was more Russians flowing in, attracted by the economic best of a bad lot of choices. Even when Balts regained their independence, the vast majority of ethnic Russians chose to stay there even without their special privileges rather than migrate back to the "superior" society posters here describe".
Rubish!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The bigest economic growth in Latvia happend during the 19th century when it was part of Russian empire, not because of the latvians themself but because of the importace of the Port cit Riga to the Russian Empire. Jews have also contributed to the development of Latvian economy during the 19th century (who were killed in rather large numbers by the Nazis and latvian colaborators in large Numbers).
The Latvian culture by and large was based around agreculture, they were rural people. Even before the Russian empire, there were large number of Germans living in Riga (Riga was a German City) After becoming part of Russian Empire, Riga was populated by many Russians. When Latvia became part of soviet union a lot of High Tech Factories were Set Up there. They didnt have sufficient number of local proffesionals to run those factories, therefore many Russians and Other Ethnics were encouraged to come and work there.
I have many Russian friend from latvia. They Say that they wouldnt mind going to Russia. But they Own propertie in Latvia, they were born there and have atachment to their homes. By the way, they were encouraged to vote to separate from soviet Union by promises of Citezenship in Latvia, so many people did. But they were not given citizenship. It is practicly imposible for a person of Older years to become a citizen of Latvia because learning language at an older age is not easy.
Any way majority of industry in Latvia is run by Russians. If they were all to live, the Latvian economy will die.
Conservative Swede,
... but for instance, yesterday, they did the 300 Kms to came here and play with one of us in a Portuguese Cup game in which, the one who loses gets desqualify. But at least, we lost with a lot of passion.
The referee was Bruno Paixão (Passion).
Between, I remember how the North Galician club, Celta de Vigo (not that great) came here all the 400 Kms down to play with my dear SL Benfica, two times winner of the Champions League and the bigger football club in the world in terms of associates.
The result? 7-0 to the Celts... 7-0! David defeated Golias...
When I went to school the next day all the bullies were in line; every SL Benfica supporters had to swallow 7 calduços before entering school; It was impossible to get in by another way. And they all know who we were...
Then, I got some kind of Stockholm syndrome and Celta de Vigo is now my favourite Spanish football team, though they are not even in the "Spanish Bundesliga": "La Liga".
And also notice the name of the club: Celta de Vigo. Portuguese instead of the Spanish "del", Galicians at heart!!
Áfonso,
You are somewhat weird, but very likable. And I enjoy your stories. Quite as I very much enjoy and appreciate the stories of Russkiy.
Btw, Afonso, I think almost all people are as weird as you, they are just not so honest about it.
Russkiy,
There is a comparison Russia/Latvia and Sweden/Finland. I'll get back to you.
Time to go to bed.
Conservative Swede,
do you remember "The Breakfast Club"?
"I guess we are all wierd. Some just hide it better".
The sporter to the wierd girl.
Thank you. Bye.
Conservative Swede appears to have a comprehension problem:
"You appear to be genuinely PC, Laine. Earlier in this thread your European-national-strength-equals-Hitler PC shtick"!
I am FOR European nationalism and have been so in my every comment.
It is Russia that has a problem with European nationalism and the Russophiles here who are logically incoherent, whitewashing Russia's history (which they artificially try to separate from the Soviet Union which was nothing but Russia and her border hostages) and present day saber rattling. I was drawing a parallel between Hitler's Germany and Putin's Russia, not any European state. If Hitler's motives of looking out for his people and methods of invading neighbors as buffers are frowned upon, why praise the same mindset from Putin and Russia? This double standard is indefensible by any logical standard. People who push it appear the worst hypocrites and yes, "gulag deniers" for want of a better word. Never an admission of a kill rate ten times that of Nazi Germany. Oh no, that was "the Soviet Union", nothing to do with Russia that just hatched out of an egg, nothing.
The other incoherence by the Russophiles on this thread is lauding Russia while criticizing the USA for racism. I merely pointed out that Russia has been holier than thou about racism but its own credentials are rotten in this regard when actually confronted with another race. Then you all turn around and say positive things about Russia's racism...that it's a state that is ensuring its own survival etc. Well, fine if people want to believe that a nation that unleashed communism and practically destroyed itself and others is a good role model of "survival" but then stick honestly with your view the USA is not being racist enough instead of contradicting yourself by slamming it for racism compared to your sacred cow Russia.
Finally, you all missed the point of the shouting on the street corner joke which was that the GOVERNMENT had no right to touch a hair of the American critic's head whereas Russians have never had that protection. Has President Bush ever retaliated for the worst calumny heaped on an individual, more than mass murderers Mao and Stalin combined have received? Meanwhile, Putin's enemies are poisoned even abroad.
Your ha-ha about going to a black neighborhood to denounce Obama is no parallel. The parallel is a future version of what happened to Joe the Plumber, with Obama using state power to sic auditors and financial ruin on his critics but that brings us full circle to the communist way of doing things which Obama favors as a three generation red diaper baby. No poison in the early days.
The USA had its pick of the world's immigrants. Instead of continuing to pick the cream of the crop, leftists turned American immigration policy as they do everything else into an affirmative action program where non-whites HAD to be admitted no matter how unsuitable or else the racist paintbrush came out again. This scam just got a completely unqualified man elected POTUS on the basis of the color of his skin, nothing else.
Your longing for a KGB agent strongman like Putin is coming true in the USA but unfortunately, he's to the left of Putin!
Laine,
You didnt respond to the point I raised in my previous point. You said that latvians developed their country which made Russians to live there in large numbers. This Rubbish, No insult latvians but they didnt particepate in the development of their Country.
All the Medieval Castles there are from the period when germans came and dominated that area. Very large proportion of Riga Historical Building are from the period of Russian Administration during the Emperial period.
And then finally your claim that Russians tryed to destroy the latvian nation during soviet era is not accurate, infact, soviet union asisted the creation of the Latvian People, by promoting by linguism of Russian and Latvian, whilest before there were various dialects. The latvians were not united, and have been ruled by other powers.
Now tell me what Russia is doing that makes you think it is behaving like Nazi Germany?
Did Russia invade any country? There was Russian-Georgian war, but Russia wasnt the one who attacked first.
The Only ones who started ilegal wars recently are the NATO and US.
laine:
I am the only person on this particular thread who has real first hand encounter with Soviet Russia (russkiy: remember Vengriya!)which lasted from 1945 till 1975 when finally I escaped thru the minefields. (During December, in heavy snow when the mines were buried under thick, fresh snow.)
When those people who risked their life or their freedom while attempting to escape to the West, or summarily have been shot to death by Russians are called as gold diggers, economical opportunist by many on this forum, you'd better quit arguing with them.
These are morally rotten, willing apologist of Evil; they deny history, whitewash murderers, sicko ideologues with shrieking ignorance - you are wasting your time on them.
They don't have even the modicum of human decency to bestow respect to the victims of their heroes: in their convoluted mind the victims are the guilty and the KGB is the righteous: they say it in a oblique, indirect way like a hint.
Bela,
No one denies your suffering. The problem is that you want to use your victim status in order to justify genocide against those who you feel have wronged you.
I've already told you that you cannot balance out evil in the world by piling on more evil. You are not an avenging angel. You do not represent God, who metes out justice to the wicked.
Your express wish (as you've stated many times) is to gloat in the extermination of millions of Western Europeans.
I don't know if this will make you feel better about your own persecution but I know that you are a low, evil man and you have no credibility on what is moral or not moral.
Russkiy,
Your say so that Russia did not attack first in Georgia is insufficient. Guess Russian soldiers just happened to be sauntering by in their battalions when lo and behold, their services were needed for humanitarian purposes to protect people in the sovereign state of Georgia who had been handed Russian passports like lollipops in preparation LOL. In what other states might ethnic Russians be in peril and require the help of "Super-Putin"?
Investors fleeing the Russian market immediately after lack your belief that Russia has no designs on neighboring nations and will not continue to foment an instability that is an anathema to foreign investment.
Russia has been threatening all European nations who do not follow Kremlin desires with cutting off their gas supplies, Old Europe as well as New Europe. This is not done by legitimate democratic trading nations where the only reason for cutting off supplies unilaterally is non-payment.
And by the way, my comments were in response to Russia's fans here who are happily supporting her "right" to take over several of her border states. I maintain they are not theirs to give and they should rather give their own nations over to Russia's tender ministrations. I was calling them on their double standard, praising Russia for identical attitude and behavior that they condemn in Nazi Germany.
You can't give Russia a clean slate by claiming that what was done by the Soviet Union does not apply to Russia. The USSR was Russia and all her victims.
Latvians would certainly disagree with your view of their history. They feel Russia gifted them with nothing but death, oppression and a Dark Ages of communism. Whatever buildings were put up during Czarist Russia were bombed to bits during the invasion by Communist Russia, so let's call it a wash.
You will be happy to know however, that the "ingrates" have probably received a fatal blow in the sense that decades of forced russification has made their demographic situation precarious.
During the Soviet Union, the Baltics were the most economically successful region despite the drag of communism. Let's see, there were Russians in Russia, and Russians foisted onto the Baltics, but the Baltics pulled ahead. Most people would conclude correctly that the deciding factor was the work ethic and western orientation of the Balts that made the difference.
Your fairytale about Russia out of the goodness of her heart sending more resources to the Baltics (what was her motivation) is laughable. Any Russian investment was to cash in on the economic engine in the soviet system that was working the best under terrible circumstances.
islam o'phobe:
As you probably noticed I don't mince words: I am not a religious freak, I don't turn my other cheek and I know that those who cannot separate friends from foe will lose and perish.
Most of the W. European posters on this forum vomit deep seated hatred against America and against those who are not willing to suck up to the putrid mafioso Russians who enslaved half of Europe and killed more of their own than the Nazis did.
Why should I feel sorry for the eventual disappearance of Western Europe? Do you fight for your survival? What respectable thing do you do apart from bashing the US and licking Putin's a***s?
I did not push for "genocide" - saying this is gross, only I feel no sorry for a suicidal W. European society when the time comes to eat their own cooking.
I follow the news in the EU - only because of my genetic European roots - and I can see that the population acts like chicken mesmerized by a snake, follows mindlessly their unelected EU overlord and applaud the ANTIFA thugs.
You represent God neither so my credibility is just as good as yours; but feel free to pontificate from your lofty position you may turn into an angel.
Laine said:
"The USSR was Russia and all her victims."
That is nothing, I repeat, nothing that Russia or Russians can do to change this people's views. To them, Russia is the encarnation of evil. It's comprehensible but it is wrong.
In the meanwhile Patriotism is revealed in its worst fashion when compared with Nationalism:
Some people think America is great because it is America. The encarnation of good. No matter what, even with the election of Obama, America will be for ever on the good side. This are the people who cannot stand criticism on America and call it "Anti-Americanism" in an ignomious and ignorant way. Really, come to Paris or Beirute and you will notice the difference...
This thread got stupid. Russia's thred always get emotional.
The next time, let's all do like Baron did, and be only Rational, ok?
By the way, Pol Pot's Cambodja was also "the Cambodjan people"?
Sorry for the terrible English.
Today I've found out an astonishing information - at least for me, as an Orthodox Christian:
in the latest two decades, the Russian Orthodox Church has canonized (declared saints and martyrs) more than 1.700 victims of the Communist regime, who were imprisoned and killed specifically for declaring publicly their Christian faith.
I have to add that the Romanian Orthodox Church hasn't canonized or beatified until now any well-known Christian victim of the Communist regime - in a country where more than a half of million people had been killed or deported, many of them specifically for being observing Christians. Actually the Romanian Orthodox Church is more concerned to get rid of their conservative, retrograde image and to build bridges - in an ecumenical spirit - to all the religions of the world, including Islam.
Which leads to the conclusion that the Russians seem to be more willing to condemn their Communist past than we are... Definitely NATO and EU membership is not the best indicator of the willingness to condemn a Communist recent history. Instead, a good indicator is how much one is prepared to honor, at a national scale, the memory of the victims.
afonso h:
"That is nothing, I repeat, nothing that Russia or Russians can do to change this people's views."
You are mistaken: have you heard of the Nurnberg trials and the de-nazification process that followed?
The allies tried to prevent the (ex)-Nazis to occupy prominent positions in the new German civilian infrastructure.
Russia NEVER held to account anybody complicit in invasions and mass deportation during Communist rule; are you that dense or stubborn to accept that as long as the victims are alive the book on Russian crimes remains open.
Most Nazi war criminals escaped to South America but the Russian KGB goons only changed uniform and retained their old power like Putin, the KGB agent.
Is this so hard for you to comprehend?
Tell me what would happen if you would tell a Nazi concentration camp survivor that the
"Germans have nothing to do with it because the SS people were not Germans".
Same token: The Red Army soldiers were not Russians...not one! -
The Khmer Rouge butchers were not Cambodians? Who they were? Greeks?
armance:
There are countless statues worldwide honoring the victims of Fascism; is any memorial anyplace for the 100 million victim of Communism?
While Nazi parties are mostly banned, the Communists freely marching everywhere and the people don't spit on them.
Bela
our PC for-no-reason proRussia commenters have something deeply in common with people who fall for islam. It is like a map of the Western self treason with double check.
czechmade:
I don't know if baron reads our little "clash of civilizations" on these pages, but it's a surprisingly accurate replica of the old Cold War setup, let's look back:
Western Europeans - for the most part- were in the tank of the Soviets and hated the US and ignored us Easterners.
Same as today: We Eastern Europeans along with the American posters forming a common ground while the Swedes, Iberian, British! and other W. Europeans vomit their poisonous vitriol against us and the US.
For them I am the most hated scum on earth because I don't hide my contempt and I believe they deserve their impending doom.
They have 500 million people, Leopard II. tanks, nukes and still shaking in fear from the imams and sucking up to the Ayatollah and to the Russians.
Spineless worms with due respect to the small number of exceptions.
Laine,
If Hitler's motives of looking out for his people and methods of invading neighbors as buffers are frowned upon
If Hitler's crime is formulated as "looking out for his people", then it does not take long until a policy of taking care of your own is tarred with the European-national-strength-equals-Hitler PC shtick.
And Hitler didn't create "buffers". He essentially tried to conquer the whole world. He was not acting in the interest of German people. Instead he destroyed for them at a pyramidal level. And that was not due to "bad luck". His actions were reckless by design.
I am FOR European nationalism and have been so in my every comment.
Well, as long as their claws are cut and they are properly castrated they do not scare you. But any true national strength is built on military might, it has always been so. But apparently any such real strength makes you associate it with Hitler. This is how far your support for European nationalism seems to reach.
You seem to share the same Woodrow Wilson style idea of many cute and cuddly little nationalisms around Europe, as Czechmade; joined together in an organized peace. But the removal (after WWI) of the power balance between a handful of stronger players was exactly what created the power vacuum in which Hitler could expand in WWII. It's a dangerous concept, a lethal fantasy. Europe is such a power vacuum today again. America showed regarding Georgia that their military reach is very limited.
I would like to see a strong Germany again. This is the power that could balance things in Europe (France and the UK are embodiments of the old order that is bringing us down). With a healthy strong nationalism between Germany, Italy and Russia, something good could come out in Europe. People are too much indoctrinated into UN style thinking (Wilson's Lennon style dreams), so they have forgotten that the only sustainable security is based on power balance.
So out with the American troops out of Germany. And Germany reasserting its national strength by building a decent military again. Are you with me Laine, or do you only support European nationalism when its cute and cuddly little creatures with their claws cut, and properly castrated?
The other incoherence by the Russophiles on this thread is lauding Russia while criticizing the USA for racism.
None of "the Russophiles" here are anti-American and accuse America for racism, except for Defiant Lion. His leftist style anti-American comments are in a category of itself, and none of the rest of us agree with him.
I merely pointed out that Russia has been holier than thou about racism
I believe you once again are mixing up Russia and the Soviet Union. But of course, you actually take pride in doing so.
Finally, you all missed the point of the shouting on the street corner joke which was that the GOVERNMENT had no right to touch a hair of the American critic's head whereas Russians have never had that protection.
Well let's look at the joke again: "An American tells a Russian that he is so free he can stand on a street corner and shout that his President is a fool."
The point of the joke is how free the American is. And the point made by Avery Bullard and me is that Americans are no longer free in this way. And apparently you concede this point, but make an academic spin to it: how you are free in theory even though you are not in practice. This reminds my of the free health care in Cuba. The government has declared that there is free health care for everyone. But there is no health care available...
I'm rather free in practice than in theory.
Meanwhile, Putin's enemies are poisoned even abroad.
Quite as I often has to point out when countering leftist accusation against America/CIA: there is no evidence suggesting that this is the case. There is nothing suggesting that Putin is poisoning people other than conspiracy theories.
Conservative Swede:
I recognized later the Estrellita was Spanish. I should've caught that living in So. Texas.
I hear that Prairie Home Companion this week features Emmy Lou Harris.
Hear it live at 5:00PM central time US public radio.
Thanks for the translation of Estrellita. ;-)
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