Monday, October 20, 2008

Will Elite Europeans Convert to Islam?

This morning reader sent a response to last night’s post:

I’ve read some of your post about the Muslim immigration in the west, and the dire situation in Europe and what will happen when Muslims are in a strong enough position to vie for power in Europe/some European countries. You asked in one comment how this power transfer will take place and gave some good points about that. One thing I’ve been thinking about is the following:

It seems to me that the present leaders, in power or opposition, has one over-arching goal, their own power to rule in Europe. With the trend of European mainstream politicians becoming more and more sensitive and accommodating to a growing and restive Muslim population, a commenter once said the politicians are seeing the writing on the wall. They know their future voter majority in many countries if present trends are holding. My question in view of this is the following:

With a ruling elite who cling to power, do you not think they will be among the early converts to Islam when the demographic trends start to have a real impact on public life? That will ensure the elite of continuing power to rule! Their god is not Christian, atheist or Muslim, but their “god” is their own power. And what a better god for the public than the Muslim variety, if that comes to pass, to ensure power and the legal means to impose their rule on the population? Was that the plan when the EU and mass-immigration once started? No! I don’t believe that. But, as you’ve noted, these things have a tendency to take on a life of their own and with time the opportunities to rule change and those who have the best abilities to change with time are the ones most likely to gain/remain in power. If indeed that is their goal. Maybe it’s not a question of power transfer as much as a public-display-allegiance-transfer for the elite, whose real agenda stay the same and as hidden as before from the public eye.
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And one can meditate on the public reaction at this point — if that scenario ever were to happen. Will there be protests? Sure, from some, certainly in some countries. But from the majority? I’m not so sure when we look to countries that have been trained in thinking of an elite that are benevolent to their subjects and the said elites are explaining that this is the best for social cohesion in the land. Case in view, Britain. Who would have thought they would become so absurd in their own re-shaping and accommodating 40 years ago?

So, in a sense I agree with your answer to:

“What Will the Western World Look Like?……the power structure will remain the same, but the players will all be Muslims.”

25 comments:

NJArtist said...

If a couple, members of the "intelligentsia", is willing to convert to Islam just to adopt a so-called Muslim baby, then who among the "elites" will not convert for the sake of maintaining their power?

The power elites see that the ruling families of Arabia are able to maintain their power nearly unchallenged. They see that the Arabian families live relatively safely.

1389 said...

If Obama is elected, God forbid, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he were to espouse Islam publicly after taking office.

Western Initiatives said...

I suspect something like this will occur. Its power will be the symbolic severing of the ties of the European elites with the European peoples.

The prospect of European elites turning to Islam is not unlike what has happened in the US, where the elites have turned to Judaism, or at least cultural Jewishness.

Converting (or "reverting" as they call it )to Islam requires little more than reciting the Shahada ("there is no God except Allah; Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah") and observance of a few Islamic laws, such as no pork and fasting during Ramadan.

It is possible to profess an allegiance to Islam without observing the rituals. I know several Muslims who drink alcohol and don't observe Ramadan, and yet still consider themselves Muslim.

I believe at least some European elites will convert to Islam, not just in order to stick a finger in the eyes of Christians and the US, but also just to keep their job in an increasingly Muslim electorate.

Czechmade said...

The relatives of the Byzantine emperor Paleologus quoted by the Pope recently did convert to islam together with the nobility.

It would be interesting to study the Osmanic administration under this angle. They petrified or slightly modified this or that maintaining the superficial picture of empty islam?

Do we have modern Turkeys two or even three? The distribution of Turkish names (often beautiful - non-islamic) covers consistently on purpose various identities from Europe Caucasus, Kurdistan, Assyria...only Armenians just like in Iran kept their orig. names.

Zenster said...

Their god is not Christian, atheist or Muslim, but their “god” is their own power. And what a better god for the public than the Muslim variety, if that comes to pass, to ensure power and the legal means to impose their rule on the population?

The only power that Muslims will "ensure" is the power of their own political caste. It is seriously flawed to believe that European political traitors will be left in office once Muslims attain any sort of majority.

Islam stands for only one thing and that is Islam itself. The concept of power-sharing is utterly alien to it. When and if it rarely does occur, it is merely for the sake of convenience whilst Muslims busily push more of the Islamic camel inside the tent.

NJArtist: The power elites see that the ruling families of Arabia are able to maintain their power nearly unchallenged. They see that the Arabian families live relatively safely.

This means little to nothing in terms of these same EU elites retaining office once Muslims become a majority. See above. Are there any Europeans who have converted to Islam that are currently in a position of power within the MME (Muslim Middle East)? Then why would you think that they will be allowed to rule a Muslim majority wherever it manifests? Case closed.

1389: If Obama is elected, God forbid, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he were to espouse Islam publicly after taking office.

Whether Obama personally espouses Islam or not is almost irrelevant. The simple fact of how this moron thinks that Islam can be negotiated with makes him into an Islamic tool. Those in power who do not understand that Islam's tenets are totally non-negotiable and that the global caliphate is its unwavering goal are accomplices before, during and after the fact.

Western Initiatives: I suspect something like this will occur. Its power will be the symbolic severing of the ties of the European elites with the European peoples.

What good will that do them? It might keep them in office for one more term until Muslims are in the majority but the only guarantee that Islam makes is that Arabic Muslims will ascend to power. As I noted above, where have any European or Western converts to Islam EVER attained power in Muslim lands? The whole notion is a non-starter.

(Please do not even try bring up Queen Noor of Jordan. Within Islam, women and political power are entirely immiscible.)

Europe's elites operate under the same delusional construct as American liberals. They are handing over the keys to the city, smugly secure in their own wildly overestimated ability to step into the resulting power vacuum once the barbarians are finished crashing the gates of Western civilization.

Does anyone honestly think that Muslims of whatever stripe would entrust such obvious traitors with any duties beyond warming up the chopping block for all the homosexuals who will face beheading?

This is the real root of evil in these dangerous careerist political bastards. With monumental hubris, they cannot believe that the world will function without them. In their delusions of indispensibility, they mentally expoxy themselves into place within their imagined power structure, utterly disregarding how they will be among the first to be run through by Islam's sword.

Czechmade said...

Even now the "Arabs" refer to the Pakistanis as "just converts".

The elites might find a short-cut however - giving their daughters to some important jihadi-monstres. Their gransons might be quite influencial later...and less fanatical, from time to time probably victims of some supercomplicated internal EU court intrigue.

Western Initiatives said...

Zenster brings up some very good points.

It is often misunderstood by outsiders, but Islam (like Judaism) is very much a faith for the "Chosen People," in this case Arabs. Arabs believe themselves Allah's favourites (I have heard as much from the mouths of many Arabs), just as Jews believe themselves God's favourites.

In Muslim circles, non-Arab Muslims such as Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, and assorted converts (Whites, Africans, Asians, etc.), will try to act more Muslim or more Arab than Arab Muslims themselves! I myself have seen this phenomenon first hand. I have seen Pakistanis struggling to learn Arabic and adopt Arabic customs, and I have seen Arabs mock them (behind their back). The Pakistanis seem to be the worst fanatics in this regard. Arabs look down on non-Arab Muslims; it is very much a racial issue.

Many Arabs, though, admire Europeans (Whites) and European culture, at least in my experience.

So, I agree that the European elites' adoption of Islam will probably not work out for them, in the end. I guess you could say, they are nurturing the forces (on both sides) that will eventually be their undoing. It can not last.

The end will be bloody beyond belief.

Zenster said...

Western Initiatives: The end will be bloody beyond belief.

Any way you slice it (literally), there is going to be major bloodshed. Islam consistently imposes the requirement for devastating force in order to overcome squeamish opponents. Zapertero in Spain is a pluperfect example of those who cave when confronted with such bloodymindedness.

The triumphalist apocalyptic nature of Islamic doctrine works in deadly combination with its promise of paradise for jihadist Muslims. Death becomes inconsequential for those who do not flinch at inflicting mass slaughter. This is why—in the absence of a “Top Down” campaign of targeted assassinations against Islam’s clerical, financial and scholastic elite—only massively disproportionate retaliation has any efficacy. Conversion away from Islam and other coercive strategies might once have had some validity but the advent of nuclear weapons had forever altered that equation.

The end in Europe will most certainly be bloody beyond belief. It remains up to the Europeans themselves as to whether they can summon up the courage to begin their own “Top Down” campaign. Be it through voting their traitorous leadership out of office or by other means, the removal of Europe’s political elite is the only thing that can possibly forestall either civil war or reopening of the death camps for their Islamic colonizers.

It is beyond foolish to think that Europe’s—or anywhere else’s—Muslim populations will voluntarily accede to any sort of non-violent compromise. The aforementioned nature of Islamic doctrine utterly precludes all such notions. Around the world—sooner or later—surviving cultures will be required to adopt a strategy of preemption. This can be done by decapitating Islamic leadership or by resorting to wholesale slaughter. Islam has always made large scale conflict imperative throughout history and today is no different. This is why I continue to predict a Muslim holocaust. Remember:

ISLAM WOULDN’T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY

kepiblanc said...

Whether the European "elite" will convert or not doesn't matter. Dead people don't convert. Over here civil war is imminent, and when it starts for earnest, they'll be the first to go. The Muslims themselves are no match for well-organized, angry European militias. Accordingly they need help from those traitors. And we know perfectly well who they are. For they sowed the wind and they'll reap the whirlwind...

Zenster said...

One further note regarding Islamic women and political power. While Benizar Bhutto might seem to be worth suggesting, her current body temperature is ample testimony with respect to the aforementioned immiscibility.

PS: Very succinctly put, kepiblanc.

Robin Shadowes said...

I more or less agrees to Zensters analysis but also with kepiblanc. No matter if the ummah is implemented or not, or if the europeans rebel against it, the traitors will be among the first to go. The elites illusions of grandeur will evently work against them and be their undoing. However, it is very possible that they think they can remain in power and still play "first fiddle". It is also possible that many key figures has already converted to islam. So why are we not seeing Merkel in hijab or Sarkozy with beard and a towel on his head? Because of taqyyia of course. This is not the right time to come out of the closet, as that would probably upset their fellow etnic countrymen. But at least we have one thing in favor, knowing who most of the traitors are. Also, how will it affect the military when their president or pm comes out as a muslim? Will they still be loyal to their government or will we see rebellions amongst their ranks as well, as I simply guess, as most of them being christian will not accept such a treason. Only time can tell.

Anonymous said...

When, If, the european èlites will try to convert to Islam to appease the muslims, it will give room to other èlites to try to take the power from them.

Government has two type of legitimity: 1) Force; 2) Consensus.

When the government lose the consensus of the majority or of the productive class it is in big, deep, troubles. These are the times of revolutions and civil wars. Always there is a new èlite willing to take the place of the old èlite.

Also, like the "The Blackhoods of Antifa " show about the ANTIFA, the muslims are not impressive with their combat skills, nor with their technological and scietific skills.

Any èlite becoming muslim will lose the goverment of the country or will lose the productive population of the country. They will lose it for the neighbours that are resisting islamization. Then, from there, the population will push to retake the lost territories.

Conservative Swede said...

I'm with Kepiblanc here:

The Muslims themselves are no match for well-organized, angry European militias.

Exactly! The problem is not that we would lose this fight. The problem is that the point of time when we have won this fight, we will stand before more devastated battlefields then ever before in history. With substantially shrunk and partially replaced populations; our countries and the world in chaos. It's rather: we will lose everything, except for the fight.

What will have been totally lost will be the modern liberal style societies. A traditional conservative policy could have produced (and maintained) a liberal style society as its output. Liberalism itself can only destroy a society.

My own policy advices have always aimed for defending and preserving this liberal way of life (Western style freedom, wealth, peace and respect for women). But the hyper-ideologues themselves are only able to eradicate these values and features that they claim to be the primary advocates of. Life is full of paradoxes...

I'm a political conservative, which is all different from the so common conservatism-as-a-personal-image combined with liberalism in politics (neocons, Catholics etc.) This whole personal image thing, combined with obsessing about anecdotal issues such as abortion is totally alien to me. I think it is a disgrace how all these people refer to themselves as conservatives when they are in fact liberals! I do not care what kind of personal poses they take, it's about politics, POLITICS! P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S (not about how you look in front of your friends). Which refers to: HOW TO GOVERN A COUNTRY! "Uhm, I'm against abortion but all fine with mass immigration" -- that is liberalism, LIBERALISM! Superficial ignorants...

John Sobieski said...

I've read a few webblogs from Muslims in dar al islam and their 'hajj experience.' They all bitched about the Arabs being superior and ripping off hajj partygoers. That is what has amazed me about Muslims who are clearly discriminated against by Arab Muslims - they defend Islam and ignore their experience.

Blacks who join Islam are the stupidest of all. The Arab Muslims look down on their race and consider them inferior. Of course there are useful idiots in abundance.

Czechmade said...

More strategic thinking:

1) Cooperate in securing safe rear territories i.e. Czech rep., Poland, Hungary, Slovakia for near future. No muslims sofar, it could be stopped in the beginning, help us suppress EU/Soros financed multi-culti. It might be a very easy strategic undertaking - esp. in the light of daily news about islam.
We are lucky - the Vietnamese do not leave much space for muslim petty business in Czech rep.

2) Study our experience with totalitarian regimes - lot of practical knowlege, lot of situations to study not to be taken by surprize later. Simply know-how.
Knowing all that - you demonstrate solidarity with those people left to fight on their own and acquire immunity.

3) Start courting Poles and Ukrainians - they offer you lot of military/historical experience and conviction to fight for the West for free. While you slept, the Poles protected you for centuries absorbing countless onslaughts from the east. British scholar Norman Davis wrote books on Polish history.

4) Forget Russians - they will let you bleed and then smoothly project their own totaltarian ambitions in Europe. Study Warsaw upstanding and
how they let nazis do the job for them. They almost managed to do the same with Prague. With each and every party involved you must be able to put yourselves into their shoes to anticipate any possible move. If you are not able to think in their way, you start heaping/projecting your own illusions in their motivations. You are slaves in advance.

5) Study marginal muslims/ muslim countries and ex-muslims, they might provide lot of detailed knowlege or oppose the
Arab drive for power.

6) Study Arab Umma mythology, most Arabs are not Arabs at all. We should not help them unify themselves by singing their Arab mantra with them. We might offer our experiences with our national revivals (19th c.) to them. There is lot of sympathy for Israel hiding in these pockets of internal antiArab resistance. We should highlight them. There is also lot of Christianity under the surface slowly working on the dehydrated muslim mind.

7) To spread your message wrap it in culture/music/literature and language studies/research/history studies.
Create some surroundings that people come to our conclusions by themselves.

Focusing on studies and culture we fortify ourselves every second - we recover our ground without any resistance. We will never be boring - monothematic or embittered.

8) Study Christianity and Old Greeks. New Testament contains lot of references discarding anything islamic.

9) Study comedies - to keep your mind flexible and to lear more how to use your language. Study literature in unfree societies to learn how to convey a clear message in an incrypted way (Stealthy recovering of lost ground under tough circumstances).

10) Study attrition methods and "salami method" - slow way of removing your enemy.

11) Study pre-islamic culture in every islamic country, highlight their glorious past and identity.
Make it a recurrent topic. Study non-islamic elements in so called "islamic civilization".

I suspect there are hundreds of elements we did not notice. The myth of islamic something could evaporate in front of our eyes.
Remeber always that the overall islamisation of the muslim countries was accomplishe quite recently. "Decolonisation" was closely followed by ethnic/religious cleansing. Leftists praising loudly decolonisation praise unwittingly also following ethnic cleansings.
Focus on this weak point.

Slave trade was a livelihood for various Arab/African tribes, we should call them by names. It would be interesting as a key issue to the common African policies/ political parties as Obamas friend Odinga for ex. in Kenia.

Zenster said...

Czechmade: 4) Forget [the] Russians - they will let you bleed and then smoothly project their own totaltarian ambitions in Europe.

Nuff said.

Zenster said...

John Sobieski: That is what has amazed me about Muslims who are clearly discriminated against by Arab Muslims - they defend Islam and ignore their experience.

The parallels between Muslims who are abused by their clerical elite and beaten women who defend their abusers are too numerous to list.

Czechmade said...

Zenster, Sobieski: They have nowhere to go. The concept of leaving the faith individually is unheard of.

So they can be rightly treated as prisoners of war. Very sad.

Czechmade said...

Sobieski:
"Blacks who join Islam are the stupidest of all. The Arab Muslims look down on their race and consider them inferior. Of course there are useful idiots in abundance."

Those black muslims coming home translate their humiliation into aggression against black non-muslims.

A success for islam on the whole.

Zenster said...

Czechmade: They have nowhere to go. The concept of leaving the faith individually is unheard of.

Which is why—in the absence of Top Down targeted assassinations—I continue to advocate massively disproportionate retaliation as an answer to any future terrorist atrocities. Wholesale destruction of the Islamic world is one of the few things that might finally drive Muslims to turn upon their jihadist clerics.

The absurdity of America trying to clean Islam's house for it defies comprehension. Only Muslims can ferret out the jihadis in their midst. That they do not do so only serves to prove that the ummah is a sea in which the terrorists swim quite safely. Still, if there is any hope for Islam to survive, it will have been because Muslims finally take back their faith by force.

It is difficult in the extreme to envision this happening without some exceptional goading in the form of entire Muslim cities disappearing after each further atrocity. If we cannot bring ourselves to kill Islam's elite, then we must face up to the necessity of wreaking such havoc upon Muslims whereby they take revenge upon those who have antagonized the West into acting against them.

Charlemagne said...

Kepiblanc said "Over here civil war is imminent..."

How soon is "imminent?

Seems like a good time to repost my My Game Strategy for victory.

Czechmade said...

The life of islam was generously prolonged by the missing opposition to the islam in the West. We gave them a raison d´etre.

Unlike USSR - meeting resistence on a clearly defined border cracked and imploded like an old pot.

The devil needs to hear a clear NO to start loosing his evasive powers.

Then the pleasant crack sound might be heard thousand km away from the NO epicentre.

Bela said...

Cant you see the pattern?

With the rise of Fascism a large segment of the European population became enthusiastic fascist and they get at it overnight. After the defeat, all of them denied their professed affection as if nothing ever happened, became staunch antifascist and switched to Communism in a heart beat.

Once the Iron Curtain collapsed all the yesteryear's Fascist turned Communist immediately distanced themselves from the "Stalinist Personality Cult and Gulag" as if they never had a willing hand in it and all switched to pinko-EuroMarxism the new vogue of the day.

So if past behavior is any indication of what future holds then you can bet that the elite - smelling Islamist money and power - will switch to Islam, no doubt about it.
The proles (prolis, prolium f.)will complain and curse but will be branded as RACIST! RACIST! and silenced.

Czechmade said...

One detail: when the "liberators" came the first thing they were trying to get were archives.

The archives contained the names of future loyalties. Khomeini could do the same with shahs police apparatus -
claiming these were traitors unless they supported him unconditionally...

This link for political switch - sudden mass conversions in the West is missing.

Decatur said...

What concerns me about the possibility of conflict between Muslims and Others in Europe, whatever its nature, is the position the United States would take. Would they sit idly by,(esp.under an Obama leadership which is quite likely now) while 'ethnic & religious minorities' are struggling for survival against millitant white racists in Europe? Would an Obama led, Multicult, Marxist America tolerate Europeans launching attacks upon Muslims? the religion of Obama's ancestors; Would the US even tolerate Europeans expelling Muslims from Europe?