Thursday, May 29, 2008

The Irresolute Spanish Immigration Policy

The article below was posted by AMDG earlier this month at La Yijad en Eurabia. Visit the original article for links to Spanish-language sources.


The irresolute Spanish immigration policy:
Between repatriation and straight-off naturalisation


The shocking and unsustainable trend of Spanish immigration

Spanish immigration policy is probably the most incompetent and frivolous in Europe. Spain has seen its immigrants increase from a negligible quantity to some10% of the population in around ten years. You can find in this page a table with the basic data of Spanish immigration from 1995 to 2000. If we exclude immigrants from Europe, there were 250,000 immigrants in Spain in1995. In 2007, the figure had risen to around 4.5 million, of which we may estimate that one million are of European origin.

Spanish immigration

Of course, this trend is not sustainable, and that is why I felt astonished by the comment by CarnackiUK to this post:

This ties in nicely with an item on BBC Radio 4 yesterday in which a member of Spain’s Socialist government was boasting to the interviewer about the success of their mass immigration policy, and offering to share their expertise in this area with Britain and other EU countries (as if these needed any encouragement!)

The main subject of the item was actually the collapse of the birth-rate in Europe and how various countries were tackling the problem. The French for example now claim the highest birth rate as a result of various financial inducements to couples having a third child. This was contrasted with Spain which apparently now has the lowest birth-rate. A couple there would have to have 16 children to obtain the benefits on offer to French women with three children. The Spanish solution is to complacently invite ever more immigrants to replace the aging work force — it’s not that big a surprise that some of those invited are mainly interested in the work of Jihad.

I was astonished indeed to read that members of my government are boasting about the mess they have created, and that they consider a population replacement as a purposely planned policy. But, apart from outrageous, that picture is very far from reality. Immigration has been out of control in Spain; also during the Aznar years. Presenting now the case as a planned policy is a cynical exercise of deception. As a matter of fact, the current government is starting to consider a repatriation policy, in order to cope with the slowdown of economic activity — in particular construction — which will hardly affect the immigrant workers.

Government and trade unions suggest the start of a repatriation policy

The former Minister of Labour and Social Affairs, Rafael Caldera, carried out in 2005 a regularization process for illegal immigrants that officially surfaced 700,000 aliens and brought along even more as a consequence of the “come-to-Spain effect” that it created, estimated to be one million (Spanish). The official statement of the minister after the process finished is very meaningful: “This is an achievement for society and a reinforcement of the ethical commitment of the Spaniards. Today, there are many people who feel better” (Spanish). I am sure that the immigrants who could consequently enjoy Spanish social services felt much better, for the rest of us this is just progressive jargon playing on a guilt feeling that we do not experience.
- - - - - - - - -
The situation is starting to change. The new minister, Celestino Corbacho, appointed after the general elections in March declared in an interview that his immigration policy would be “as many as needed, and one more” (Spanish). He added nevertheless a very meaningful condition: “but with a contract”. In another interview, he suggested a policy of encouraging repatriation (Spanish). It will be very difficult to implement it, when a nonqualified person caring for elderly people can earn in Spain more than a doctor in, for instance, Paraguay. The difficulties of a repatriation policy are analysed in Nuevo Digital (Spanish), an authoritative blog by a free-lance journalist.

Even more surprising is the change of policy by the communist trade union CC.OO., which is supposedly more radical than UGT, the socialist one. They have asked in a recent report for the control of immigration and have stated that “immigration has brought along a not very productive growth model based on low-wage manpower that has weakened social cohesion”. The report is analysed in further detail, again in this article by Nuevo Digital (Spanish). Just a few months ago they were denouncing racism, xenophobia, neoliberalism, alarmist speeches against immigration, etc… What could be the reason for this sudden change? May be the immigrants are not joining the trade unions as they expected?

On the other hand, the current leftist agenda includes granting them voting rights in local elections and speeding up the nationalisation process.

This change of policy — at this stage just suggested in interviews, but not yet made official — has made evident the schizophrenic character of the immigration policy of Spanish left. On the one hand a repatriation policy is suggested, on the other the same leftist voices propose speeding up the granting of political rights to the immigrants, including naturalisation.

In 2006, the same Minister Caldera presented a proposition in Parliament to grant voting rights in local elections to foreign legally residents. Those from EU countries and from countries with reciprocity agreements with Spain can already vote in local elections; extending the voting rights to the other countries can only be seen as a surrender and a weakness. The initiative was gently turned down, but the new minister appointed has again made a declaration favouring it: ‘if these people cannot vote, they will not care about the city they live in’.

He is a former major of a town around Barcelona with an immigrant population of 23%, and claims that integration is not complete because immigrants cannot vote and have therefore no interest in local administration. Again, one cannot avoid the feeling that our left is looking for clients among immigrants and on the other hand they are conveying the message that they are limiting it and repatriating.

Much more dangerous than granting voting rights in local elections are the proposals to grant citizenship to immigrants after a 5-year period of legal residence. The current period is 10 years, and a prudent policy would extend it to 20, or even suspend it.

Spanish immigration by country of origin and main nationality by province

It should be noted that the Spanish nation has currently three enemies. Two of them are external enemies -the European Union and Islam — the other one is the interior enemy: the secessionist movements. The European Union is only perceived as such a threat by a minority which can be estimated by the percentage of voters that rejected the Constitutional Treaty in the referendum in year 2005: 17% of the voters, out of a low voting turnover that would reduce this figure to a mere 10%. Still, the risk is there, in Mittleuropa, where it has been since Spain got involved in European affairs in the 16th Century. The other two threats are felt by a majority of Spaniards, even if the politically correct pressure has not yet let that majority express that concern. It is of the utmost importance that they are aware of the scope of the threat and that they loose the fear to express it.

It has been curious to see how all this threats support each other since 11-M. I cannot consider it just a coincidence. For instance, this strange news consisting of just a sentence, informs that the Basque regional government has requested the UE to grant voting rights to those immigrants living three years in any European country. Similarly, the Catalonian regional government has proposed to reduce from 10 to 5 years the period of legal residence needed to get Spanish nationality. Last but not least, the regional Government from Galicia has published a study stating that the regional workforce is insufficient, old and not competitive and regretting that Galicia has not benefited from the inflow of immigrants to Spain in the last years.

I want to finish with this issue, in order to show that, contrary to the information in certain comments by Afonso to some of my former posts, while the secessionist movement in Belgium — the VB — is an ally of the counterjihad, the Spanish secessionist movements have taken sides with the Islamic aggression to the former Alándalus; that is, Spain. So much they hate the only country in history that has successfully eradicated a strongly rooted and native Islam, and that has shown historically the way to deal with it.

22 comments:

Tuan Jim said...

What's actually been a real riot in the news lately is watching the Spanish and Italians go at it. The Italians are finally cracking down on illegals (Roma are getting the most press at the moment) but it looks like it'll be across the board pretty soon - and the Spanish are accusing them of all sorts of human rights violations and whatnot - just because they have the common sense to finally put their foot down.

As I said, it's quite entertaining from my perch.

Stormgaard said...

Nothing liberals do, say, or believe makes any sense at all - until you come to the realization that a.) they don't value human life above that of animal life and b.) they do not think beyond that of their own life span.

They see themselves as just another animal on the planet and their primary goal is to get from birth to death with as little personal risk as possible.

This is almost impossible for most rational and moral people to believe and/or even understand. I daresay most liberals are so heavily indoctrinated that they aren't even aware of the fact that this is what they believe - but it is the truth.

Once you understand and accept this fact everything they do makes sense (at least from their perspective), is glaringly predictable, and you will be able to beat them in any debate you have with them.

Afonso Henriques said...

Well ADMG I am sorry not to have found this earlier because we would get evolved in a nice discussion but I will only state what I think of all of it:

Yes, Zapatero's government has been disastrous and yes, immigration has hitting Sopain very hard, but the same is happening in Portugal. At least, you do not have neighbourhoods right in the Historical centre of Madrid where Castillans are a minority as we already are a minority in some Historical central neighbourhoods of Lisbon.

But you have a problem: many of your immigrants are muslims and as so they are much better organized because the muslim is the only third worlder that has already made Europe to knee in front of him. Los negros no tiénen ese poder, mucho menos los índios que están quase extinctos.

But ADMG, the European Union is just a continuation of your non National Spain!
You're just the same. And your "right wing" is as much prejudicial to Europe as any other country left wing.

This besides the fact that we Hispanics "are not really Europeans" (in the light that we have a distinct History from the rest of our Civilisation).

I think you should be more critical to Spain as a country/Nation State.

You have three enemies: The European Union, the Ethnic minorities and the left.

Spain, for being such an unnatural state, has enemies that are the friends of "true Europe".

The independentists especially the Basques are capable and should have the right to own their own independent country in order to protect their uniqueness as a culture as well as a people.

The Catalans (Aragonese? I have more and more doubts concerning the Valencians) also have a right and they should have been left alone as it seems it will happen.

Galiza, a Galiza should not become independent but it shall become Portuguese in the future. Portugal is like a ghost without Galiza, without its Natural head. Everyone who has been there knows that place isn't really "Spanish".

But I won't tak about it aby more.
I'll just say that it is nice to know that Portuguese are mainly concentrated there, in Galiza so that our Historical, cultural and "racial" ties can continue to be stong.

But you say:

"contrary to the information in certain comments by Afonso to some of my former posts, while the secessionist movement in Belgium — the VB — is an ally of the counterjihad, the Spanish secessionist movements have taken sides with the Islamic aggression"

have they?

Look at the map. What do you see?
It's a great information and I must say this is the post I read from you I liked the most and it has great information.

I see "normal" immigrants throughout Spain: Romanians (mainly Gypsies, isn't it?); and "Hispanics" (mainly non whites, isn't it?).

Then I see Bulgarians in Castilla (maybe there are so few immigrants there? I don't think Bulgarians are the threat), I see English and German people on the beaches and I see "Galaecians" (Northern Portuguese) with their Galician brothers in Galicia but also in León.

This is not by chance (apart from Bulgarians):

Portuguese are in the lands they consider literally to be like home. Many "Galaicos" (Northern Portuguese) would prefer to go to Galiza than to go south to Lisbon searching better living conditions. Why doesn't the same happen in the border more to the South?

There is a brotherhood. A true Galician is as much Portuguese as myself.

The English and the Germans are not there by chance neither, they are there because they are just a bunch of blond people who have never seen the sun!
Here in the south the main foreigners would be the English as well.

Then we have the Moroccans.
We can explain the Moorish nowadays presence in Western Andaluzia by proximity and by the sense they have that that is islamic land. In the Southeast. Well, where did the Morrocans settle the most when they came in the first time? Wasn't that in the South East? Weren't both the Muslims and the Iberians to that part of the Peninsula?
Isn't there where the only desert of Europe is located? Africans like to live there, don't they?
And Granada... Bobdil was expelled from there only in 1490s!

But Catalonia you can not say a thing. There is no explanation but the will of the "Spaniards" like yourself to erase the Nationalists there (just like the Walloons bring ethnics to Flanders and Brussels) by bringing the muslims in.

The four Catalan regions: Barcelona, Gerona, Tarragona and Leida are filled with muslims nd the surrounding areas are not. The muslims are few in Aragon and Northern Valencia. What is it if not opression of the Catalans?

The muslims are destroyng Barcelona and the Catalan caracther because you, like the Visigoths, do not care about the HISPANIC peoples, you care about your state. People like you (and I do not mean this personally) would just feel very confortable with the European Union.

You wouldn't mind see Barcelona destroyed as long as your little empire remains intact.

That's why the independentists are not a threat to "true Europe", because they are true Europe. You are the ones who are attacking them, if Basques and Catalans were to be independent, they would be able to defende themselves better.

Don't you agree with me?

Sorry for my bad English but son duas de la mañana y yo estoy muy ensonado. No me recuerdo do que hay escrito! As you can see, maybe I'm already writing in Spanish and as so... you know I never write in Spanish so you can tell that if I continue to type I'll not make much sense.

Adeus, comprimentos. Adiós!

babs said...

Hey Afonso -
I always skip your posts because they are too long.

Conservative Swede said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservative Swede said...

AMDG,

You write very fine articles about Spain, which I always read with much interest. It's a pity for you that there always comes this tail from a Portuguese with a serious case of Spain derangement syndrome.

Afonso,

You display a very immature sort of nationalism. When you speak of Spain you remind me of a leftist speaking about Bush. Everything you write is just based on excited emotions, and lack of knowledge of history. Spain is an unnatural state you say? Well so is Sweden then. We have the Skåne people (originally Danish) which would correspond to Galicia. We have the Sami people which would correspond to the Basque people. And most of our history we incorporated the Finns, which we could let correspond to the Catalans here. If you go down to the continent it's even worse, in terms of mishmash.

And for this you say that Spain is like the EU. How history-less! You have bought a leftist/liberal propagandistic picture of Spain. Your sense of nationalism, Afonso, has a leftist colour, and this is why you naturally side with other leftists, such as the separatist movements in Spain (who have a terrorism-hugging tradition).

But Catalonia you can not say a thing. There is no explanation but the will of the "Spaniards" like yourself to erase the Nationalists there (just like the Walloons bring ethnics to Flanders and Brussels) by bringing the muslims in.

The four Catalan regions: Barcelona, Gerona, Tarragona and Leida are filled with muslims nd the surrounding areas are not. The muslims are few in Aragon and Northern Valencia. What is it if not opression of the Catalans?


This is a truly deranged conspiracy theory. You actually believe there is sitting a little Franco in Madrid, commanding where the Muslims should live, and out of spitefulness send them to Catalunia. You know nothing about Spain. You are truly like a leftist faced with Bush. Only people so bent out of shape can come up with such high flying fantasy stories, Of course, Muslims move freely in Spain like everybody else. Why do they prefer Catalunia? Probably because it's more leftist. More comfy for Muslims. And probably because they have found an ally in the separatist movement.

The muslims are destroyng Barcelona and the Catalan caracther because you, like the Visigoths, do not care about the HISPANIC peoples, you care about your state. People like you (and I do not mean this personally) would just feel very confortable with the European Union.

Not only Spain, but each Spaniard is evil, evil. We hates them.

VinceP1974 said...

One of my favorite texts is a letter Mark Twain wrote in response to an American ex-pat living in Paris in the late 1800s during the Spanish-American War. The ex-pat wrote to Mark saying how embarassed he/she was to be an American because the war has ruined the reputation of America in the eyes of Europeans.

(some things never change)

So in response, Mark goes through the litany of European nations and what might be going through their mind.. this is what he said for Spain:

[cut]

Brutal, base, dishonest? We? Land Thieves? Shedders of innocent blood? We? Traitors to our official word? We? Are we going to lose Europe's respect because of this new and dreadful conduct? Russia's, for instance? Is she lying stretched out on her back in Manchuria, with her head among her Siberian prisons and her feet in Port Arthur, trying to read over the fairy tales she told Lord Salisbury, and not able to do it for crying because we are maneuvering to treacherously smouch Cuba from feeble Spain, and because we are ungently shedding innocent Spanish blood?

Go to the link for the whole letter.

[cut]

Is it Spain's respect that we are going to lose? Is she sitting sadly conning her great history and contrasting it with our meddling, cruel, perfidious one - our shameful history of foreign robberies, humanitarian shams, and annihilations of weak and unoffending nations? Is she remembering with pride how she sent Columbus home in chains; how she sent half of the harmless West Indians into slavery and the rest to the grave, leaving not one alive; how she robbed and slaughtered the Inca's gentle race, then beguiled the Inca into her power with fair promises and burned him at the stake; how she drenched the New World in blood, and earned and got the name of The Nation With The Bloody Footprint; how she drove all the Jews out of Spain in a day, allowing them to sell their property, but forbidding them to carry any money out of the country; how she roasted heretics by the thousands and thousands in her public squares, generation after generation, her kings and her priests looking on as at a holiday show; how her Holy Inquisition imported hell into the earth; how she was the first to institute it and the last to give it up - and then only under compulsion; how, with a spirit unmodified by time, she still tortures her prisoners to-day; how, with her ancient passion for pain and blood unchanged, she still crowds the arena with ladies and gentlemen and priests to see with delight a bull harried and persecuted and a gored horse dragging his entrails on the ground; and how, with this incredible character surviving all attempts to civilize it, her Duke of Alva rises again in the person of General Weyler - to-day the most idolized personage in Spain - and we see a hundred thousand women and children shut up in pens and pitilessly starved to death?

Are we indeed going to lose Spain's respect? Is there no way to avoid this calamity - or this compliment? Are we going to lose her respect because we have made a promise in our ultimatum which she thinks we shall break? And meantime is she trying to recall some promise of her own which she has kept?

Is the Professional Official Fibber of Europe really troubled with our morals? Dear Parisian friend, are you taking seriously the daily remark of the newspaper and the orater about "this noble nation with an illustrious history"? That is mere kindness, mere charity for a people in temporary hard luck. The newspaper and the orator do not mean it. They wink when they say it.

And so you are ashamed. Do not be ashamed; there is no occasion for it.

[Mark Twain. Written in 1898, first published in 1923 - Ed.]

VinceP1974 said...

I meant to put the hyperlink before the first [cut] oops.

Conservative Swede said...

Regarding Afonso's reaction here, and regarding another thread about the principles of '98,

People talk about the EU as it was like the United States, or Spain, As if it was like a state, an empire or a federation. It is not. It is the very anti-matter of historically existing states, empires and federations. The nature of the EU is like the United Nations, not like the US. It's an artificial construction without historical substance, upheld and existing only as long as the political elites agree to play along with the game. But in both cases, the EU and the UN, they can virtually be dissolved overnight. That's not the case with real historical states, empires and federations, as for example the US and Spain (no matter how much "unnatural" some idealist might think that they are).

The EU is an attack on on existing nation states. The EU is the very anti-dote of a strong state/empire/federation. It's based on an ideology of cultural leftism, centered around white guilt, so destruction of European nation states (the entities holding white power together) is seen as a goal in itself.

Afonso thinks that with promoting the agenda of dismembering Spain into regional pieces, that this becomes symbolic of the struggle against the EU; since he has superimposed the image of EU upon Spain (because he dislikes Spain). But scattering the nations into regional pieces is precisely a EU idea. They have been promoting it quite hard, and it's institutionalized as the Committee of the Regions. There is a vision among many EUrocrats of the regions freed from the historical nation states and placed directly under the EU, a vision of the historical nation states dissolved. Afonso got it all upside-down.

Also Sagunto and Henrik in that other thread talked about the EU as if it was something comparable to the United States, and therefore also gets it all upside-down. They speak of the EU as if it was a real state/empire/federation (with historical substance). Then they promote libertarian anti-state principles as a higher good. So quite as the EU they end up working against the real historical states of Europe (if they at all take their promoted principles seriously).


Secessionist movements in Europe come in many forms. Take Lega Nord in Italy. They are a responsible and statesmen kind of party. The partake in the current Italian government. They do not push their secessionist agenda into anarchy and destruction. On the contrary, they are constructive and responsible kind of people. While the Spanish separatists are generally terrorism apologists, and they want to tear the Spanish state apart. They are irresponsible leftists. And the step to ally with Islam is very small.

Anyone who thinks that secessionist are always right, and nation states always wrong, or vice versa, will never get anything. Anyone looking for such oversimplified principles is bound to end up as a liberal.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Nothing can be added to that.

Afonso Henriques said...

Well Babs, I really think I have to be more brief but even though I try, I end up divagating a little longer...
Despite everything, I pretty much believe that someone will read my comment so, I'm writing to her/him.

"a serious case of Spain derangement syndrome."

Well Conservative Swede, there are some posts of ADMG that I do not like but this is not one of them. I think his vision is very centralised. What he says, sometimes, do not relate to what I see.
I'm not saying he's lying, all I am saying is that ADMG has a different opinion on reality which is the vision of many Spaniards but is a not the vision of many others. What I really think is that ADMG sees the same I see but he does not want to realise that. Along with many other Spaniards.

" Everything you write is just based on excited emotions"

I beg to disagree.
I may be sometimes emotive but not regarding Spain. And if I am emotive regarding Spain it does not influentiate my imparciality. Or are you in the side of ethnic Swedes because you are "emotive"?

"lack of knowledge of history. Spain is an unnatural state you say? Well so is Sweden then."

Lack of History? I would like to "know" History in which Spain is a Nation...

You compare Sweden to Spain but your comparison is too falacious.
You Swedes... In this little Peninsula we have some 50 million people and two countries, in Scandinavia you have some 20 million peoples and three countries.

Apart from the Sammi, you people are pretty much the same. If Sweden was to be unified with Norway and Denmark it would be much more a Nation State than Spain.

I heard that your languages only differ by political reasons.

"And for this you say that Spain is like the EU. How history-less!"

Can you please tell me what's the difference? I know you can't so I'll stick to it.

"You have bought a leftist/liberal propagandistic picture of Spain."

It would be much better if you were to say exactly what you disagree with instead of attacking me with ad hominems, calling me a leftist/communist.

Have I? Please, I would be glad to hear about it...

" Your sense of nationalism, Afonso, has a leftist colour, and this is why you naturally side with other leftists, such as the separatist movements in Spain (who have a terrorism-hugging tradition)."

Well Conservative Swede, you are lucky I admire so much your comments otherwise I would just turn my back and not even answer you because this is a lie as well as a "golpe bajo". It does not deserve an answer.

"Your sense of nationalism, Afonso, has a leftist colour"

Here, you don't say why or what makes you say this. You can not define what you mean with "leftist colour" and as so you free a ghost in the air that everybody know is here to attack us though nobody knows what it is, where it is or if it is even real.

My sense of Nationalism has the colour of a donkey when it escapes.

"this is why you naturally side with other leftists, such as the separatist movements in Spain (who have a terrorism-hugging tradition).""

Now you show your ignorance in Peninsular History.

What tendence do the cessionist groups in this Peninsula have to terrorism? Can you present an example?
Of course you will mention ETA. But ETA is recent, has almost no support and as ADMG himself have noticed, ETA is more in line with the PSOE than with the PNV.

Yes, the PNV, Partido Nacional Vasco, the RIGHT wing Basque Party who has won every single election in the Basque Country since democracy has arived in Spain.

Except the last elections when ETA did the favour of killing a PSOE member in Basque lands and all the Basques went out to vote PSOE.

I know, I know, a consiparacy! Just like Eurabia! Go ask ADMG, maybe you will be surprised.

You may also (not) know the CIU, the Right wing Nationalistic Catalan party, yes, the most successfull Catalan Party.

But you say the cessionists here are "leftists" just like the Indians of Bolivia call the cessionists who do not like Communism "racists". Ok, Conservative and Evo Morales, the same logic.

Galicia, has no real right wing Nationalist Party -yet! - and as so I do not support the BNG. Galicia's symbol is not a red star, it is a triskel.

But wait a minute!

The ancient (woo... so ancient) Galician lands of both Spain and Portugal are (guess what?) Conservative; The Basques Nationalists are, Conservative; the Catalan Nationalists are Conservative.

When it comes to General elections, who vote conservative as well?

The Castillan lands!
So, if Spain wasn't an empire it wouldn't have the Socialists in power because Socialists usually win in Catalonia and in the Basque country.

Is Spain wasn't an empire it would have a Conservative North and a Leftist South, just like in Portugal with the bonus that Conservatives would definetly win in the Basque Country and probabily in Catalonia.

Only the south would remain lacking "Conservative vallues". But that is another story.

Afonso Henriques said...

The goal of the European Union it to "Europeanise" (whatever that means to them) Europe.

The goal of Spain is to "Castillanizar" all "España" Hispânia.

The goal of the Brittish Empire was to "English-anise" all the Empire. They were quiet successfull with the U.S.A. and Canada.

What makes the European Union so dangerous is its ambiguosity.

I prefer Spain to the European Union 1000 times.
Spain hasn't acomplished in five hundred years half the European Union has in the last twenty years.

It is scarying. Europe is changing much, much, faster than Catolonia ever was.

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

"lack of knowledge of history. Spain is an unnatural state you say? Well so is Sweden then."

Lack of History? I would like to "know" History in which Spain is a Nation...


You are obsessed with Spain, and in your tunnel vision you do not compare it with other European nations and their history. I already mentioned Sweden. I could pick virtually any European country. But take Italy for example. Any Italian will tell you that italianism is an abstraction, a merger of many small principalities and mini-languages.

Your view is skewed by the fact that you come from a tiny country which holds only one dialect of Vulgar Latin within its borders.

If Sweden was to be unified with Norway and Denmark it would be much more a Nation State than Spain.

An interesting idea, and I surely wouldn't mind having my capital city in Copenhagen. Sweden, Denmark and Norway are different kingdoms out of historical "accident", I agree. And this perspective sheds light on the Iberian peninsula, and makes it clear that it's Portugal that is the unnatural entity there--the historical accident. That Portugal ought to have been incorporated into a greater Spanish kingdom.

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

What tendence do the cessionist groups in this Peninsula have to terrorism? Can you present an example?

I said that they are terrorist apologists. Two examples:

1. If the PNV had any honour, why did they then oppose the illegalization of Batasuna (the "legal" face of ETA) in 2003?

2. In 2004 the vice president of the Catalan government made a pact with ETA, that they would receive political support if they did not act in Catalunia.

They have the same sort of relation to ETA as democratic socialists have to murderous communists. They will pay lip service to how it is "of course" wrong with killing people, but in practice they are on the same side.

Afonso Henriques said...

Conservative Swede:

Afonso Henriques said...

"You are obsessed with Spain"

No, I am not obsessed with Spain and your comprison between Spain and Scandinavia is not a bright one.

You can compare Spain to the United Kingdom if you will. It would be much more apropriated.

But let's compare Spain o the rest of Europe. Europs has made her way untill Nation States. So, the "pure" states are no exception, there are many.

"italianism is an abstraction"

I will ask Ioshka Futz as soon as I have a such. Italia is not an abstraction, of course that country diverges greatly compared to other Nation States but it is still a Nation. I believe in federalism to Italy, not an economicist Padania. And mini languages are called dialects. They are not really languages because the dialects of the same language are highly inteligible.

But if you think Italy differs a lot, go to Spain and see with your own eyes.

Spain is not a Nation, it is an empire and unfortunatley, the right wing in Spain has a tendency to despize some peoples within Spain. It is a fact, to such an extent that it disgusts me what they have done to Catalonia.

Also, as my Godfather says, I am as Spaniard as a Catalan.

"An interesting idea"

That's up to you people, but I wouldn't like to see the Norwegians dragged into the European Union, the Danish being ruled by the Sweden majority and also, the land of the stereotyped hot, blond, dumb women is Sweden (at least here), we would be culturally poorer if we had to stereotype all Scandinavia.

"this perspective sheds light on the Iberian peninsula, and makes it clear that it's Portugal that is the unnatural entity there"

No it's not. Well, up until the XVI century there were many more Kingdoms (if you like) that represented Nations.

The Catalans were turned to Mediterranean and unfortunateley to them, their Empire clashed with bigger forces in Southern Italy.
We had luck we were turned to the Atlantic, that's how we could survive, colonising Brazil, Africa and the world.

The Catalans joined Spain by marriage of the King. The samed has happened in Portugal.

The real difference is that "them" do not have this in Barcelona.

It's called the Place of the Restoration. They sure want one of them. And if they had one of this, the muslims would be lesser.

Afonso Henriques said...

"If the PNV had any honour, why did they then oppose the illegalization of Batasuna"

Because they can defeat Batassuna with ideas in a democratic manner; they are not afraid of them.

Also, the ilegalization of Batasuna is a way the Spanish government have found for the "Etarras" to claim they are the poor ones, to seduce the Basque youth.

You have the righ to ilegalize a terrorist organisation, not a political party.

"In 2004 the vice president of the Catalan government made a pact with ETA, that they would receive political support if they did not act in Catalunia."

I would like to know more. But... isn't this vice-president from the PSOE? The Spanish left wing party of Zapatero?

Everything indicates so, especially the fact that the Spanish PSOE under the name PSOE of Catalonia has won the last elections there.
It is the main rival of the Nationalists of the CiU.

So, you (probabily) peak one Iberist Socialist and call them a Catalan Nationalist... kinky!

"it is "of course" wrong with killing people, but in practice they are on the same side."

Of course they are the same side!

You, by not wanting minorities in Swededn (and I believe, the rest of Europe) are on the same side of the Russian Neo-Nazi who knifed to death a nine year old Tajik girl.

Are you do same?
Don't you agree that "of course" it is wrong to do such an horrendous thing?

But... aren't you against muslims? Wasn't the girl muslim?

Also, I went to check Wikipedia on statistics concerning Sweden and Spain.

Ethnic groups in Spain:
8% Non European Groups;
10% Catalans;
6% Galician
1.6% Basques;
and so I can estimate some 74% or so Castillans.

Ethnic groups in Sweden:
450 thousand Finns;
And some 16,5% immigrants.

Where are the Skandids and the like?
They mentioned some 50 thousand Saamis.

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

No, I am not obsessed with Spain and your comprison between Spain and Scandinavia is not a bright one.

Your saying so shows how little you know (and how little you want to know) about Scandinavia, or any other European country for that sake. I maintain that it's Portugal that is the unnatural anomaly on the Iberian peninsula, and that it should have been part of a greater Spanish kingdom. You have convinced me of that.

Afonso Henriques said...

I'd so like to know why you disagree with the European Union.

But that's for another thread because I am going to stop goint go to this.

Afonso Henriques said...

Also, do you know HOW/WHY Zapatero made it to the government as Prime Minister for the first time? Have you ever thought about it?

There are so many real bad things to say about my country, why do you have to imagine non real "bad" things to say like "it should have been part of a greater Spanish kingdom"?

"little you know (and how little you want to know) about Scandinavia"

There is more diversity in Spain than in the all Scandinavia (the Saamis are such a tiny minority...). It is a fact. Face it!

AMDG said...

Afonso,

I was also wondering why you had not reacted and I find now this. I will answer to your first comment:

1. - Calling “Hispanics” to Spaniards plus Portuguese is confusing; it refers to something that does not exist currently. It is a good example of your political-historical daydreaming. Spain has not a different history as the rest of Europe, but a very specific one: we choose to be “Europeans”, that is, Christians.

2. - Spain is NOT an unnatural State. It has five centuries of history as a political entity. Of course, it has been subject to changes. And it could experience major transformations due to the secessionist movements.

3. - It is curious that you accuse Spain to be an imperialistic nation (even if it is a fact it was an empire, the first global one) but claim the Galicia belongs together with Portugal. Very curious indeed. I am happy nevertheless that you do not want to talk about it anymore [I am ironic here].

4. - Portuguese are a majority in Galicia and Leon and Zamora because they have very few immigrants; therefore it is not very relevant. Portuguese do not migrate to Andalusia because they would have to compete with Moroccans and many other immigrants.

5. - The fact that there is a desert area in Almeria has nothing to do with Moroccan immigration. Almeria has got a lot of immigration because there are a lot of greenhouses and workers are needed. It is that simple. Yes Boabdil was expelled “only” 5 centuries ago.

6. – This is very important: It has been the regional government of Catalonia that has promoted the immigration from Morocco against American Hispanics (yes, they are Hispanics) because the latter speak Spanish. It is just the opposite you say. PLEASE STOP YOUR POLITICAL PHANTASIES.

7. - I can only laugh at the comparison of “Castilians” with Visigoths, the Germanic tribe that took over Spain and mixed with the locals. This has a very funny side indeed. Pity that we are in amidst the third big wave of the Jihad.

Conservative Swede, thank you. I agree that Afonso diverts from the main topic with his comments.

I may have a look to the remainder of your discussion if I have time.

AMDG said...

Afonso,

I have just read over the discussion. I am sorry to say that it is not of any interest to me.

BTW, I read a Portuguese blog where I have found this articlewhich may be interesting to you.