Friday, September 07, 2007

Muslims Are Pleased With Sweden

It’s hard to tell exactly what went on behind closed doors during Fredrik Reinfeldt’s little tête-à-tête with Muslim leaders, but, judging by the self-satisfied responses of the Muslim participants, they must feel that they received an appropriately deferential response from the prime minister.

According to the International Herald Tribune:

Swedish premier, Muslim ambassadors content with prophet cartoon talks

A ModoggieSwedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said he had a “good dialogue” Friday with ambassadors from Muslim countries in a meeting called to defuse tensions over a newspaper cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad.

Diplomats from 22 countries, including Iran, Iraq and Syria, met with Reinfeldt at the government headquarters in Stockholm to discuss the angry reactions to the sketch by a Swedish artist showing Muhammad with a dog’s body.

“We have had a very good dialogue,” said Reinfeldt, who has been reaching out to Muslim groups in Sweden and abroad to avoid a repeat of last year’s mass protests in Muslim countries over Danish newspaper cartoons of the prophet.

He noted that there was a mutual understanding of the need to “dampen” reactions to the cartoon. Reinfeldt also said he had explained to the ambassadors that in Sweden a prime minister cannot punish a newspaper for what it decides to publish — whether he agrees with it or not.

[…]

Syria’s Ambassador Mohammad Bassam Imadi dismissed Swedish media reports before the meeting that the diplomats would present a list of demands to Reinfeldt.

“We have no list of demands, on the contrary, we are here to bring two sides together where there is a problem,” he told reporters after the meeting.

Iran’s Ambassador Hassan Ghashgavi described the meeting as “fruitful,” and said talks had included the responsibilities related to the freedom of speech.

“We should use the freedom of expression for integration — not abuse it,” he said.

This is the standard feel-good boilerplate issued after any high-level diplomatic confab, and not to be taken seriously. However, I notice that the prime minister’s assertion — that he “cannot punish a newspaper for what it decides to publish” — and Ambassador Ghashgavi’s — “freedom of expression must not be abused” — are fundamentally incompatible.

If freedom of expression must be suppressed to prevent abuse, then it is not freedom of expression. Period.

Everybody came away from the meeting satisfied, but nothing is solved — unless, that is, Sweden’s media never ever again publish anything that might offend a Muslim.

Kepiblanc, our longtime Danish correspondent, wrote to me this afternoon with his take on the latest news from Sweden:

Baron, the whole affair is being downplayed by Swedish MSM. For example, there’s an article in Expressen way down on their homepage. An excerpt (my translation):
- - - - - - - - -
“We reject violence”

On of the invitees was Iran’s ambassador, Hassan Ghashghavi

“It was a fruitful conversation, where I, among other things, explained that we will not see further violent demonstrations. We reject all violence, be it psychological or physical. These matters must be handled with diplomacy. I think the Swedish government handles this fine,” says Iran’s ambassador Hassan Ghashghavi to Expressen.se.

Is this a big issue in Iran?

“Yes, it upset many people and it’s important that we have this kind of dialogue. Outside Rosenbad [government building - translator] stood Heidar Han Jahangiri of Bromma [suburb of Stockholm - translator] who fled Iran twenty years ago. He protested the Swedish government’s invitation to the ambassadors.

“When one invites people from some of the world’s worst countries, like Iran and Egypt, in order to let them tell the government what to write, then you’re wrong, big time,” he says.

So far the next meeting between Reinfeldt and the ambassadors has not been scheduled.

Baron, allow me to make a reference to my comment on the “Has Sweden Caved” thread, and Conservative Swede’s as well. No, I don’t think the government can order the court into conviction of Lars Vilks or Nerikes Allehanda either. But they’ll point out and underscore that the trial is taking place in order to satisfy the Muslims. And hope the whole thing will be forgotten when the verdict comes.

As it turns out, my predictions were accurate: lots of hot air, nice words, mutual understanding, handshaking and smiling. The Muslim world will think they cowed Sweden, and the Swedish Muslims will feel stronger than ever. The “persons with a Swedish background” will be ignored by the MSM.

But it was interesting to read the readers’ comments in Expressen. Around 90% of the comments were along these lines:

  • “What the hell do they think to come here and dictate how are laws should be like, when they themselves live in barbaric dictatorships of the worst kind?”
  • “OK then, let’s demand they change their laws to allow Christian churches, gays, and topless girls on their beaches.”
  • “I’ve just cancelled my golf trip to Egypt.”
  • “I’ve just left the Social Democratic Party and joined Sverigedemokraterna.”
  • “Out with all Muslims — NOW”.

Etc., etc.

Maybe I can expand Mr. Jahangir’s remarks a little:

Reinfeldt invites twenty thugs appointed by brutal dictators from the world’s most barbaric hellholes containing the planet’s dumbest people, who never, ever contributed anything positive to mankind. Nothing, nada, nichts, null, zero, zip, zilch. People who worship a medieval pedophile hood with a serious mental disorder and behave themselves as a slimy, expanding, and malignant eczema on the globe’s skin. People whose one and only purpose in this life is to die as martyrs while creating havoc, mayhem and all kinds of atrocities until they can rape 72 virgins. People who are outright crazy, mad, and insane in every respect. And they come here demanding respect???

Yes, they do. And Reinfeldt delivered. Yes, Sweden caved. Shame on him.

Kepiblanc.

Here’s some more on the theme of “Freedom of expression, but…”, this one from the Swedish site Newsdesk:

Having the Right to Say Something Does Not Mean Having to Say It

Commenting on the recent debate concerning the publication of drawings depicting Mohammed as a “roundabout dog”, Mehmet Kaplan, MP, the Swedish Green Party’s spokesperson on legal issues and member of the Swedish parliament’s committee on Justice, says: “There is not need to water down the freedom of speech and the freedom of the press. However, the question is also whether Nerikes Allehanda should express everything the paper is allowed to express.”

“No changes should be made to the freedom of the press act. On the other hand, we need to enter into dialogue with chief editors in matters like this. What risks hurting the public and cause unnecessary conflicts between religious groups in the community are issues like these. It is not acceptable to completely unnecessarily hurt people that adhere to a certain religion”, says Mehmet Kaplan.

“The freedom of speech and the freedom of press should be preserved, to the benefit of all Swedes, including Muslims. The row surrounding the published ‘roundabout dog’ does not concern what we are allowed to publish, but what ought to be published and the responsibility for what happens afterwards. There are a lot of things that we are allowed to do today, but that we still do not do.”

“Many Muslims find this publication completely unnecessary, it is a matter of mutual respect for each other,” says Mehmet Kaplan.

There are several things to notice in this article.

First of all, the spokesman for the Green Party is a Muslim. Interesting.

Secondly, “No need to water down the freedom of speech, however… We have freedom of speech, but… No changes should be made; on the other hand…” etc.

Thirdly, “It is not acceptable to completely unnecessarily hurt people that adhere to a certain religion.” Does this mean it is sometimes necessary to hurt people of a certain religion? Would that religion then happen to be Christian? Or maybe Jewish?

Lastly, DIALOGUE. The inevitable dialogue. The dreary, endless dialogue. As far as Muslims are concerned, “dialogue” generally means “explaining to the kafir what he must do in order to save his sorry skin.” Watch for a dialogue, Swedish-style, one that ends in consensus and reaffirms alla ska med.

The news of Muslim satisfaction hasn’t, however, trickled down to everyone in Sweden. It seems that someone has engaged in a little bit of performance art with one of Lars Vilks’ sculptures:

Sculpture by controversial artist set on fire

A sculpture created by the artist at the centre of the Muhammad cartoon controversy was set alight in southern Sweden on Thursday night.

Emergency service were alerted to the blaze shortly after midnight. The fire was quickly brought under control but the roundabout was temporarily closed for traffic due to the risk of the structure collapsing.

Police said they were classifying the crime as vandalism and did not yet have any suspects.

Earlier this year, Sweden was gripped by a ‘roundabout dog’ craze — hastily constructed wooden dogs began appearing in the middle of traffic circles nationwide as an alternative to the often unpopular and costly public artworks commissioned by local councils.

Lars Vilks’ contribution to the guerrilla art movement has been subjected to several arson attempts since the publication in Nerikes Allehanda of a cartoon depicting the Muslim prophet Muhammad as a roundabout dog.

Seemingly unfazed by the furious reactions to his drawings, the controversial artist indicated at one point that he was also considering constructing an actual roundabout dog featuring the founder of Islam.

Lars Vilks himself is the wild card in this whole ludicrous affair. He has made it obvious that he is not going to cease his blasphemy just because Muslims are offended — to him, the right to offend is part and parcel of his freedom of expression.

Even if he is convicted of hets mot folkgrupp, I don’t expect him to stop drawing Modoggies. Only death will stop him.

And death is just what some Swedish Muslims have in mind for Lars Vilks.

Earlier this week, a woman in western Sweden was formally charged with having issued the artist with a death threat via e-mail.

“The person in question has admitted to us that she sent the e-mail,” said police spokesman Håkan Lund.

“What is more worrying is that she stands by her words, explaining that her beliefs and convictions had been desecrated and attacked,” he added.

According to police, the woman — described as a devout Muslim with a family — was not part of any militant networks.

She did not say that she would personally kill Lars Vilks but she encouraged others to do so.

“There are a lot of people on the internet expressing this same will and intention,” said Lund.

Lars Vilks is a leftist, so Sweden’s establishment cannot abandon him entirely, as they would a Swedish Nationalist or a member of Sverigedemokraterna. Until his recent offenses, he held the correct opinions, and he will deserve the protection of the state for as long as possible.

If that Islamic bullet or bomb finds him, though, what then?


For previous posts on Lars Vilks and the Roundabout Dogs, see the Modoggie Archives.

20 comments:

Geraldo said...

What matters is:
Are swedes more or less pleased with muslims?
Are swedes more or less pleased with their politician?
If first answer is no we win something.
If second question is no we win more.
Muslims were misleaded about the issue?
Even better, this may led them to commit errors of calculation that may turn in our avantage somewhere in future.

Profitsbeard said...

Muslims belong in the intolerant zone of Mecca.

Civilization is too much for them.

Archonix said...

If I may say so, without knowing what went on in that meeting we can't assume that things have gone one way or another. We need to wait a while to see what the outcome is, not jump to hasty conclusions.

I've said it before and I'll say it now: if I'm wrong, I'm wrong,. However I don't think I'm wrong. The swedes are adept at making polite smalltalk that means very little, so the muzzies could take these sweet nothings as firm promises without necessarily understanding that nothing has been promised.

You're all very quick to dismiss sweden, but my gut tells me something has changed. The dynamic is wrong, it doesn't seem to fit the idea that sweden is capitulating. Something is about to break in a big way. I trust my gut.

Yorkshireminer said...

Dear Kepi,

I tend to agree with you, but will they really have got anything, we hear this verbal diarrhea every day from our politicians. It means nothing it it is just a polite code. When a politicians says that we have had robust and fruitful discussion, it usually means that they have been at each others throat. The problem is one of perception. The muslims will go home thinking that they have won they have been told that the Swedes have groveled but it is untrue. The Swedish constitution will still be in place unchanged.

I have been trawling through the comment column in Expressen. My Swedish is not as good as my Danish but I got the distinct feeling that Swedes are a very disgruntled folk group. I don't think it is many newspapers that get 450 comments in one day on an article and not one of them as far as I could see complimentary, if fact the opposite. One even said that he hated muslims another said that they could kiss his good Christian Swedish butt, another that they should take there stinking camels and leave. What I did notice and I think it is very significant was that many said that if the prime minister caved in the SD would be ruling Sweden after the next election. Many stated openly that they would be voting for you know who. I know the saying that one swallow doesn't make a summer but I really got the feel that there was a suppressed anger in the comment that is just waiting for the opportunity to get out, a mental feeling that the everyday Swede was drawing a mental line in the sand and saying so far and no further.

The real question is when will the Swedish and the west say enough is enough.

kepiblanc said...

Yorkshire, I think we agree completely. I was lamenting Reinfeldt for his invitation, not the ordinary "Svenne". And I agree with the Baron: much depends on Lars Vilks and Nerikes Allehanda now.But the Swedish MSM will go out of their way to appease the Muslims. Can they appease "Svenne"?
The longer one clogs the safety valve, the more violent the explosion will be.

Alexis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steen said...

This article puzzels me: It has´nt been confirmed anywhere else, and the Turkish paper is down at the moment. Anywa, se what the ambassador to Ankara says - total surrender (copied from my blog http://snaphanen.dk):

Swedish Ambassador to Ankara Christer Asp also condemned the cartoons, referring to them as “provocative.” Speaking to Today’s Zaman, Asp said a majority of Swedish people were against the publishing of such cartoons in a local newspaper. The ambassador expressed his opinion that freedom of the press was not unlimited and emphasized that respect for what others hold sacred should be preserved.



http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=121509&bolum=102

Conservative Swede said...

Archonix,

I've said it before and I say it again, you have a very good intuitive understanding of Sweden. Where did you get that from? It's better than the vast majority of the Swedes have.

I have written here and in my blog, and said that I was alone so far in my description. I'm sorry that I missed your comments, that are on the same line.

The swedes are adept at making polite smalltalk that means very little, so the muzzies could take these sweet nothings as firm promises without necessarily understanding that nothing has been promised.

Excellent description.

You're all very quick to dismiss sweden, but my gut tells me something has changed. The dynamic is wrong, it doesn't seem to fit the idea that sweden is capitulating.

Yes something has changed. Lars Vilks changed it. I have always talked about how people (liberals, Christians, libertarians, etc) are in a state of hypnosis and how they cannot be reasoned out of it. Their brains have to be lock-picked. Lars Vilks has lock-picked Sweden. At least up to a certain point.

The dynamics is wrong. It doesn't fit the picture. Your words tell me that you look for patterns and use your intuition the same way I do.

Sweden is not capitulating. But of course, Sweden is still Sweden, having dialogs with thugs. But no matter how revolting that is in itself, it does not at all imply capitulating.

And as has been mentioned, especially based on the comments at Expressen. There are many dynamics and different currents set in motion thanks to the "invention" of Lars Vilks.

Something is about to break in a big way. I trust my gut.

It could become big. Or we could just have seen the culmination of the whole thing. It's very hard to say. It's much easier to say what will not happen. E.g. there will be no trial against Nerikes Allahanda and Lars Vilks as as suggested by Kepiblanc's scenario, which is so far incorrect, and will remain incorrect.

AWOL Civilization said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AWOL Civilization said...

At a certain point, a politically-correct society becomes excruciatingly boring to intelligent people. Perhaps we are witnessing an instinctive rebellion by a mind that yearns for the removal of intellectual constraints?

Profitsbeard said...

alexis-

If you've read the Koran, how can you ask Muslims to treat other religions with respect?

Islam is: the utter disrepect of all other religions.

And their ultimate destruction.

From Mohammedan contempt.

ln said...

The following credo found on *www.henrikalexandersson.blogspot.com* has been formulated as a counterbalance to Prime Minister Reinfeldt's friday meeting with the 20 muslim thugs. (The partial translation is in no way perfect!)

"These are principles worthy to die for."
- - - - - - - - -
iii) No bloody devil has the right demanding to be spared from being questioned, criticized, satirized, being made fun of, being called to account for or being backbitten because of a stupid or superstitious opinion. The limit is put by our defamation laws (...which certainly are not perfect).

iv) Artists have the right to practise their art freely from any pressure at all.

vi) No bloody devil has any right to demand special treatment within our legislation. Not even brownies or goblins believing in hocus-pocus or mumbo-jumbo. Faith or creed is superstition's victory over reason and common sense. Faith or creed is a declaration of idiocy of the human intellect.
- - - - - - - -
i) Vi skall inte ha någon hetslagstiftning. Alls! Hetslagstiftning är godtycklig och ger olika medborgare olika rättigheter. Och det är illa, illa, illa!
ii) Det är förbjudet med uppvigling och stämpling till våld, mord, misshandel, vandalism och stöld. Dessa lagar gäller lika för alla. Det räcker.
iii) Ingen jävel har rätt att kräva att slippa bli ifrågasatt, kritiserad, utsatt för satir, hånad för korkade eller vidskepliga uppfattningar, ställd till svars eller baktalad. Gränsen går vid vår förtalslagstiftning (som i och för sig inte heller är perfekt).
iv) Konstnärer har rätt att utöva sin konst fritt från all slags påtryckningar åt ena eller andra hållet.
v) Vår yttrandefrihet, vår tryckfrihet, människorätten, våra medborgerliga fri- och rättigheter, det öppna samhället och vår demokrati är icke förhandlingsbara värden.
vi) Ingen jävel har rätt att kräva särbehandling i vår lagstiftning. Inte ens tomtar som tror på hokus pokus. Tro är vidskepelsens seger över förnuftet. Tro är en idiotförklaring av människans intellekt.
vii) Ingen skall komma och ändra våra lagar och vår utbildning för att de tror att förtryck, intolerans, trångsynthet och krossade medborgerliga fri- och rättigheter är dagens lösen.

Detta är principer värda att dö för!

Geraldo said...

To Alexis
A muslim cannot be nice. Otherwise he wouldnot be a muslim. If he looks nice it is because ot taqqyia.
You have a Koran. Did you read it? (carefull, it is a dangerous book).
To understand Islam you can go to Faith Freedom

If you can read french better the topstar is Coranix

Archonix said...

CS, your comments are very kind. I don't consider myself to be particularly intuitive but I do have the advantage of being married to one of you. :)

gun-totin-wacko said...

Somebody mentioned above that the people in Sweden seem to be opposed to any concession-or even discussion-with the 'slammies. Isn't this a sign of Europe's problem: the people want one thing from the government and the officials give them another?

I'm still waiting to see how it pans out, but I can't see the Swedish PM really telling the 'slammies he met with to bugger off. Will this meeting have an impact on the next election? Possibly. I know nothing about Sweden, so I won't judge.

But if perceptions are reality, then the Muslims won again. They'll go home and use their state-controlled press to tell their ignorant people that Sweden caved. Who'll know better? Then we'll see how many more little flag-burners pop out of the woodwork.

Sorry. Rambling again. Lack of sleep.

Epaminondas said...

Actually Archonix, I hope you are right.

Maybe they offered 150,000 one way tickets on El AL

Alexis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tarig said...

Geraldo, apart from Dr Naik and whether we read "The Dangerous Book" or not, just go here:

http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm
for "Some Scientists Declaration about The Holy Quran and Islam".

Yorkshireminer said...

Dear Tariq,
nothing like cherry picking, a recent survey showed that only 7.5% of the top American scientists believed in a God. Lets put it another way. It is almost inconceivable that 92.5% of top American Scientists who don't believe in God would take any notice of divine revelation agreeing with observed facts. They would put it down to coincidence. A few believe in your interpretation but it doesn't prove anything. The total no. who contributed was how many, 13 out of how many 1,000s. May I use the argument used by you Muslims, 99.999 % of American scientists do not believe that there is any relationship between the astronomy revealed in the Koran and observations. This sort of argument used by you muslims is wearing a bit thin. I for one are getting a bit tired of this sort of Bullshit, or to put more politely Madison avenue public relations spin. Trying to make a case by quoting a few contra examples. The good people of Britain have had to suffer from this sort of thing for the last year. The British Government has been subsidizing a traveling exhibition called 1001 Muslim inventions. Google it and read it for yourself, but it is what we would call in Yorkshire nothing more as wearing a fur coat and no nickers. Show and no substance. When you get down and analyses the content you find out that you Muslims have invented nothing more than the three course meal and discovered coffee, most of the rest they stole from the infidel you claim the discovery of the number 0 sorry it came from India. Once again lets put it into context 1001 inventions in 1,400 years may I remind you that Edison had 2,000 inventions to his name. I don't know how many year it took him but I can say with certainty that it was not 1,400 and every one greater by a factor of ten more important than any made by a muslim.

Deep Regards

Yorkshire Miner

tarig said...

Hi Yorkshireminer,
sounds like you completely deny the contribution of muslims to secience, and haven't heard about the Islamic Golden Age, the age when islam was still fresh. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
Can also have a look here:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/Introl2.html

Other Comments:

- 99.999 %!!! The way you get this result is completely illogical. Applying the same logic to any scientific fact we may get the same result, 99.999 %!! Test it yourself!

- I think you should say 99.999 % are indifferent or having no clear idea..etc. At least this how they say it in science.

- 13 declarations are just examples, you can google for more.

- Even if only one scientist made such declaration, that's enough to prove that (at least) the Quran has something to do with science, isn't it? Scientists do not say baseless things! Specially when they are not biased and having no benifit of saying it.

- Edison is the greatest Inventor in history no doubt. But that does not mean the other inventions worth nothing! Maybe one of the 1001 inventions is more valuable at its time (which is several hundred years back from Edison's time)than all Edison's. I don't know on which basis you say "ten times better". Again, I think this is baseless.
- Finally, I think the only way to to reduce the declaration just to a "..." as you say, is to show 13 other ones from peer (and only peer) scientists (and only scientists) that completely refute the declarations.

Regards,
Tarig