Saturday, August 20, 2011

A Norwegian Muslim’s Voice Crying in the Wilderness

Erick Stakelbeck and Dale Hurd from CBN provide some of the best investigative reporting being done in Europe by American journalists.

And who is CBN?

Ah, there’s the rub: the Christian Broadcasting Network is a small outfit that punches well above its weight. But don’t expect to see their investigations being copied by any of the famous media outlets. Not with that “Christian” in their name. That word alone makes them doubleplus ungood as far as the run-of-the-mill, clichéd and overpaid U.S. jornolists go. Admitted Leftists all, they wouldn’t be caught dead carrying a story with a CBN byline.

Which is their loss and even more so, a deep loss for Americans. The less we know, the less informed will be our decisions.

So… Dale Hurd and CBN went to Oslo to investigate the growing problems with the Muslim immigrant community in Norway. They visited before the Breivik massacre, and were warned by an Iraqi that something bad was coming. He didn’t know what, but he could “feel it”.

CBN asked questions in lots of places where women are helped to cope with the Muslim men in their country. Including Muslimas, who are not flourishing in the midst of the tribes in which they are forced into behaviors at wide variance with the larger culture. In fact, at wide variance with any level of humane treatment.

The video is interesting in and of itself. It calls to our attention what the Norwegian press prefers to pass over in silence as though it didn’t exist. Just as our MSM press does. But CBN has been covering the underbelly of Muslim behaviors for a few years now. They know what to ask, both in this country and in Europe.

Due to the vagaries of Blogger, the video from CBN is below the jump. It won’t function on the lead page so we’re forced to put it below the fold. Thus, the following information, which would be better placed after the video, will have to go up here, at least partly.

Perhaps the necessity for putting our old information first has some advantage after all. It gives a context for the video made in Oslo before the massacre. We, readers and bloggers, well know this old and ugly story in Scandinavia, particularly in Sweden and Norway. What we’ve been saying for five or more years now wouldn’t surprise anyone in Northern Europe. At least anyone who hasn’t had her head stuck in the sand for the last decade.

We came late to the game, six years ago, when I was posting a series in cooperation with the Belmont Club called “I Could Scream”. These posts initially described my learning curve when it came to Islam’s treatment of women. I hadn’t done much on Europe or America yet, I was still focused on Salafist hell-holes like Saudi Arabia. Honor killings? Those were in the OIC. Or so I thought.

However, some blogger named Fjordman was following the cover-up in Scandinavia. It was from him I learned of this frank and revealing story in, of all places, Aftenposten (a name I would come to despise in August 2011). But ten years earlier, in September 2001 the English version of the newspaper had carried this story, which Fjordman was to pull up four years later. From 2001:

Oslo Rape Statistics Shock

The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin.

Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown.

Nine out of ten cases do not make it to prosecution, most of them because police do not believe the evidence is sufficient to reach a conviction. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo’s Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising — the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo’s population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

[… ]

“Meanwhile, it is our general experience that this is an increasing tendency. We note this by the number of time we need to use interpreters in the course of an investigation,” Larsen said.

They really lay it out honestly, right? I had to look at the story twice just now to remember that it had actually been published in Norway back then.

Continuing my trip in the time machine (and believe me, it has lots of similarities to looking for needles in haystacks), I tracked down an old “I Could Scream Post” which jumped a bit more than four years, to December 2005:

The post began in Saudi Arabia, where the sexual depredations appear to be what Muslims do to infidel slaves disguised as “servants”. As I said then, “wash, rinse, repeat”.

But the steepness in my learning curve was increasing. Forget the Islamic backwaters, these horrors were now part and parcel of European life:

For the next Muslim gender war story, we fly on to Sweden, where Muslim immigrant men make no excuses for their treatment of Swedish infidel women:

“It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid [link is in Swedish]. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably f**ked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.”

It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne — this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore… … girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get f**ked to pieces.”

The rate of rape and other violent crimes by Muslim immigrants in Sweden is difficult to ascertain. Sweden’s suicidal multi-cultural choke on freedom of the press makes it hard to know exactly how many young women are being victimized. The most basic of freedoms, the inviolability of the person, has been tied to a rock, put in a burlap bag, and dropped into the sea in Sweden. The ugly sister, P.C.-Speak, has taken Liberty’s place.

It seems so long ago. Looking at that post, I see a link pop up to … Fjordman. Oh my.

He said back then (and I quoted him):

… If you postulate that many of the Muslims in Europe view themselves as a conquering army and that European women are simply war booty, it all makes perfect sense and is in full accordance with Islamic law. Western women are not so much regarded by most Muslims as individuals, but as “their women,” the women who “belong” to hostile Infidels. They are booty, to be taken, just as the land of the Infidels someday will drop, it is believed, into Muslim hands. This is not mere crime, but ideologically-justified crime or rather, in Muslim eyes, attacks on Infidels scarcely qualify as crime.

Western women are cheap and offensive. We Muslims are here, here to stay, and we have a right to take advantage of this situation. It is our view of the matter that should prevail. Western goods, like the land on which we now live, belong to Allah and to the best of men — his Believers. Western women, too, essentially belong to us — our future booty. No wonder there is a deep and increasing suspicion against Muslims in the Swedish and European public.

That is the post with the iconic picture of the bloodied, dazed face of the Scandinavian rape victim. I still see her in my dreams, that infinitely sad, defeated visage.

To show you how old this information is, and how inevitable Breivik seems now in the face of this oppressive silence, here’s a snip from Fjordman’s own blog, in 2005, when he talked about that first study in Norway, linked at the top of this page [my emphasis — D]:

The numbers published in September 2001 were discussed in at least two out of Norway’s three largest newspapers: Aftenposten and Dagbladet. A leading member of the Liberal Party (Venstre), Odd Einar Dørum, demanded all the numbers be put on the table: “A scumbag is a scumbag, regardless of skin color”.

Four years later, Dørum is Minister of Justice, and nobody has seen these statistics since 2001. The number of rape charges in Oslo have continued to rise, reaching record levels in 2004. There is ample evidence of brutal gang rapes, something that used to be rare in Scandinavia, being committed by immigrants against native girls. For instance, 21st of July, three men were charged with gang raping a 15-year-old Norwegian girl, who was dragged into a car while waiting for a bus at the bus station in the town of Fredrikstad. All the men were of “foreign origin”. Such cases have become almost routine.

The only possible explanation for why we are no longer presented statistics showing the percentage of immigrants involved in this is that the government is covering it up. Usually, this would have made the media demand that the Minister of Justice should resign. This has not happened, although I know several journalists have been reading the posts I have made about this topic, both in English and in Norwegian. To make matters worse, while Norwegian women are increasingly unsafe in their own capital, we hear calls for even more immigration, and 85 % of our MPs pass a law saying that we are guilty of discriminating against immigrants until proven otherwise.

We have national elections on the 12th of September. And right now, I’m embarrassed to come from this nation.

2005. You can bet those journalists were indeed reading him then. And so was the Berserker, no doubt. Fjordman told the truth about a massive, cynical cover-up regarding the destruction of women’s lives and for that his punishment is to have the Berserker hung around his neck like an albatross. Why? Because Norwegian men have failed abysmally to protect Norwegian women. It’s as primal as that. Someone has to pay the price for their failure to act as real men, and Fjordman won that position. Prophets in their own countries are hounded and abased.

You can bet the families of the elitists thought they were safe from the maelstrom they’d visited on their fellow-citizens in the name of their Utopian fantasies. Now Breivik has changed that calculus. Even as a Nordic loner, he has made the elites see they’re not safe from the effects of the lethal political games they play with others’ lives.

And now we have CBN in Norway, come to investigate a deteriorating immigration bedlam. Here’s what Dale Hurd said:

It’s been almost a month since innocent Norwegians were killed by a lunatic obsessed with the threat of Islam.

But the terrible tragedy has not stopped civil debate in Norway over the impact of Muslim immigration.

Several weeks before the massacre in Norway, CBN News travelled to Oslo to investigate reports that that nation’s experiment with Muslim immigration and multiculturalism had gone terribly wrong, that Muslim radicalism was growing along with violence and intimidation against non-Muslims.

Islamists Target Women

In the wake of the killings, some on Norway’s political left call the fear of Islamization a “conspiracy theory.”

However, there are real victims — and they are mostly Norway’s women. Norway has never faced such problems before.

Even though Norway is a democracy, some Norwegian women do not have full rights. They are denied them by their families, and they live in fear for their lives.

At the Red Cross office in Oslo, Monica Berge-Tukh and Anne Marte Stifjeld take calls from Norwegian girls who face honor violence, forced marriage or genital mutilation.

“We get calls from girls and we really get a bad feeling in our stomach that something is seriously wrong,” Berge-Tukh told CBN News. “Most of the girls tell us ‘I never thought about it’ or ‘I never thought it would happen because I live in Norway.’”

They not only live in Norway but were born in Norway and speak Norwegian. Still, their rights are not protected and they are controlled by their families.

“A lot of them have been threatened and beaten,” Berge-Tukh explained. “They tell us about a lot of social control, so when they become like 10 or 12 years old (their family members) start following her to school just to control that she is not having any contact with boys because ‘good girls don’t do that.’“

An Eye-Opening Encounter

Hege Storhaug was a self-described “naïve left- wing journalist” when an encounter with an immigrant woman changed her life and her career.

“In 1992, as a journalist, I met a young Norwegian-born Pakistani woman, only 18 years old. And she had been married at gunpoint in Pakistan to her second cousin,” Storhaug recalled.

“I was so shocked when she said ‘My parents were willing to kill me if I didn’t enter into this marriage, to protect their own honor,’” she said.

Storhaug now works full-time to protect immigrant women and girls from forced marriage, genital mutilation and honor violence.

Women, she says, have been abandoned by the Norwegian government and deprived of their rights as citizens — like four Norwegian girls all sent to Gambia for genital mutilation.

“Their parents just dumped them in Gambia, their country of origin where the girls, ages 3-9, were all genitally mutilated,” Storhaug told CBN News. “They have been stripped of the possibility to become a full member of this society, and we have allowed it, we have allowed it.”

Storhaug, who works on behalf of the rights of women, has been called a “racist” and “Islamophobe” by the some on the left in Norway.

That’s the kind of immature name-calling resorted to by the desperate. They have no solutions for what they’ve inflicted on their country, so they want to kill the messenger instead. Impotent, immature, and eventually lethal.

Rape Epidemic

Something else that Muslim immigration appears to have brought to Norway is what some here call “a rape epidemic.”

Recent police statistics showed that in the capital city of Oslo, 100 percent of assault rapes between strangers were committed by immigrant, non-Western males. And nine out of 10 of their victims were native Norwegian women.

To protect themselves, some blonde Norwegian women have reportedly begun dying their hair black, and many travel only in groups.

Too bad we didn’t know they were going. We could’ve dug up those old posts from 2005 onwards and given them some further validation. But I’m so very glad they made this trip before it was headline news. Their timing was serendipitous indeed, making their message all the more telling.

Kristin Spitznogle is a therapist who has counseled some of the rape victims.

“These men they do not attack their own,” she noted. “They attack Norwegian women and a liberal culture they will not accept.”

Non-Muslims ‘Fair Game’

And Spitznogle has been attacked in the Norwegian media for saying what many will not: that the assault rape problem is primarily Muslim men raping non-Muslim women. And any woman who does not dress modestly and wear the Muslim headscarf could be considered by some Muslim men to be “fair game.”

Yah. As Fjordman reported and we re-told six years ago.

“For some the hijab is a symbolic marker that separates the submissive proper Muslim women from what they see as the Norwegian ‘whores.’ When I say ‘whores,’ I’m really just referring to their own words. This is what they told journalists.”

Spitznogle says Norway’s left-wing establishment has engaged in blaming the rape victims because the whole notion that Islamic culture is dangerous to women is very politically incorrect here.

And anything that doesn’t meet the standards of political correctness is simply hidden behind a wall of silence. As if that would make it go away. Norway has sold its soul for a fantasy picture of human nature. You could probably trace their delusions all the way back to Rousseau.

But CBN did a work-around on that lethal p.c. pressure-cooker. They found a Muslim willing to speak truthfully. Now there’s a double-bind for the Norwegians in Nice, Nice Never-Never Land:

But it’s hard to call a Muslim immigrant a racist for speaking out against his fellow Muslims.

Walid al-Kubaisi is a respected Norwegian journalist and a Muslim who came from Iraq. He is concerned about radical Islamic elements within an otherwise law abiding Muslim community.

“We have a problem,” he said emphatically. “All deny. Nobody says that we have a big problem. But this will give a bad result in the future.”

As in other European cities, parts of Oslo are now Muslim zones and may be subject to Sharia law or to the rule of local imams.

“Most of the areas where the Muslim is the majority, the Norwegian feels that they are not in their country, that they’re not in Norway. They feel like a Muslim country,” al-Kubaisi said.

When CBN News interviewed al-Kubaisi in June, no one had any idea that a crazed gunman would start killing people over the issue of Muslim immigration. But al-Kubaisi made what now feels like a chilling prediction — a backlash against immigrants.

“Kubaisi equals clash of civilizations,” he said. “It will happen. I am not a prophet, but something will happen. I don’t know. But I feel it.

Some on the left in Europe are using the Oslo massacre to stifle criticism of Islam. But not talking about it won’t make Norway’s problem go away.

It sure won’t. Neither will blaming or shunning the courageous prophets like Hege Storhaug, like Fjordman, make that self-inflicted immigrant problem disappear. As Queen Margrethe of Denmark pointed out to her Danish subjects, it’s time to stop being lazy, time to demand that immigrants assimilate. In other words, she offered common sense to her subjects.

Who in Norway’s elite will tell the truth? Not even all those dead at Utoya will change their minds. You can’t open a closed mind, you can’t start a dialogue with leaders who think they have all the answers ahead of time, even when Reality slaps them in the face and tears the hearts out of their families.

Or maybe it’s too early to tell. Maybe those hearts of stone will begin to melt…

Our thanks to CBN for their fine coverage.


Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

It must be especially galling for you to see this sort of behavour, dymphna, haing staked out your position on violence towards women so clearly in the past and yet seeing s many women leapng to pretend it doesn't exist. In our society, it'd be almost expected that man would try and pretend it doesn't exist (though any man that does should be introduced to the pointy end of a sharp stick) but, somehow, when a femae-dominated society like Norway tries to minimise and excuse the problem it just seems wrong.

I know why they do it. Denial is so much easier than facing the reality. It creates illogial behaviours, akin to the Stockholm syndrome. Only worse.

goethechosemercy said...

Muslims are RACISTS!

Juniper in the Desert said...

Superb post! Thanks

sameer said...

Muslims are winning because they are firm in their belief of their religion (no matter how wrong their religion is). Europe will lose this war to Islam, unless people unite and are more associated with their religion. Ultimately, it is only christianity that can save Europe.
Why has the west always been a proper civilised place to live on the planet? It was because it was place of people who embraced christanity and the countries following Islam became hell holes.
Now these Muslims are here to turn Europe into a Islamic hell hole.

Nick said...

Do watch this clip on youtube. It's from a journey Simon Dring took in 1992, retracing the hippy trail to India (which he'd done in the 60s.) Check out the way women were being treated in Turkey - this is in the early 90s mind you - and the attempts to justify that behaviour given to Dring as he questions some of the men.

Dymphna said...

@ sameer--

We've traveled a very far piece since Christianity was dominant anywhere. And, as a matter of sad fact, when it was dominant it was repressive. Ireland? Spain?

What hurried its demise was the French anti-religious Revolution and down that path to the sad mistake of modern polities establishing "state" religions. Which means neat, well-kept and empty churches dotting the landscape.

As for the West being a "proper civilized place", I disagree. The very uncivilized USA had more liberty than proper, civilized Europe, but it was never "proper".

America's laws were intended to require the separation of the two spheres, political and spiritual. They'd seen what happened when the state promoted religion. But the new absolultist religion, Scientism, had a creed, cult, and code far more draconian than any medieval monks could've dreamed.

I blame Henry VIII for much of our misfortune re religion. He annihilated the framework of Catholic Christianity among his subjects, destroying a system that he failed to replace with anything nearly so able to answer the inherent yearnings of his subjects.

"God-awful" was old 'enry. England never really recovered from the slaughters and wreckage. The greedy elites grabbed what they could and let the rest go to rack and ruin, often literally...

We all need a commonweal that promotes Goodness, Truth, and Beauty. But we've lost our way and are now mired in Malignity, Propaganda, and Ugly. Just look around our public spaces to see what ISN'T there...and the tawking heds tell us we don't need 'em.

NorseAlchemist said...

In the end, the center cannot hold.

Scandinavians are some of the nicest people you can meet, friendly and hospitable. They as a rule are slow to anger.

But it has been only a thousand years since the Vikings, and just as they are slow to anger, so too is the Fury of the Norse fearsome to behold. Look to the Berskerker, who foolishly slew his fellows. Look at the devastation one man caused. Now imagine what will happen should two, or three, or a dozen, or a hundred of the Norse give into the anger that is building. How long will it be before some father sees his daughter or his wife gang raped and decides that after hundreds, no thousands of cases of the government doing nothing, will rise up on his own to see vengeance and retribution. A thousand years is a short time, and my people have not changed so much.

@sameer says only Christianity can save the peoples of Europe. Dymphana says it is principles of liberty. I say it is something else. Far older values, values that have existed since Heathen Gods walked with Heathen kin in the lands of ice and snow.

Protect your Kin. Seek Vengeance for those that harm them. Those are the things that will save Europe. Not the son of the same foreign god that is prayed to by these Muslims.

on-my-own-in-berkeley said...

"But the new absolultist religion, Scientism, had a creed, cult, and code far more draconian than any medieval monks could've dreamed."

Would you say more about this to help some of us connect the dots? Thanks,

Dymphna said...


Scientism is an unfortunate but inevitable bastardization of the crucial pov which grew out of the "Renaissance" fever re discovering (uncovering) the heretofore 'secret' material world.

For those trained ONLY in the tenets of science, the limiting is reductionist and destructive – e.g., Skinner thought he’d reduce the 'mystery' of children to a few "scientific" theses, thus producing superior human beings. NOT “le bingo”, as Zenster’d say.

Science is indispensible but all-too-often commandeered in the name of some horrific “betterment” -- besides Skinner, we have Sanger's ‘scientific’ genetics (Hitler loved her stuff. So did our state of VA). Then there’s Richard Dawkins’ impoverished view.

Google [Scientism]. Look at the bibliography and links in the Wiki. Even better, search for [scientism's problems]. I came up with this:

Three Problems with Scientism

Somewhere in there he says, "true science must be rooted in objective measurement".
An excellent mag on related issues:

Clarmeont Institute

Perhaps they have online classes on A Philosophy of Science? At the very least, it'll make the names & ideas in this field familiar.

I miss Claremont. Just one of the cruel cuts in our nouveau poor “lifestyle”.

Cyril Lucar said...


If I get your meaning here, I vigorously protest that we Christians worship the son of the God which Muslims worship. They reject the Triune God and we reject their bloodthirsty evil false god, whom they call Allah. It is liberals who tend to capitulate to Islam, not orthodox Christians. And might I point out that Vikings have a great history of rape until they were conquered by the Gospel of Christ.

Dymphna said...

Norse Alchemist--

I let your comment thru, though I had some reservations about your tone and language. Frankly, your enthusiastic new convert attitude is fine with me, but not here, not if you have to denigrate other points of view in order to make your own.

For example, your "rules to live by" are problematic and the information on which they are based is wrong. You say:

Protect your Kin.

Fine, no problem. Basic human instinct.

Seek Vengeance for those that harm them.

Nope. We have the western rule of law here so "vengance" isn't an acceptable topic for discussion on GoV. You have a lot of other places listed in your profile where you can go say that. NOT HERE.

Those are the things that will save Europe.

No, those "things" are unworkable in a welfare state. At least the 2nd rule is. You're suggesting anarchy. NOT HERE.

Not the son of the same foreign god that is prayed to by these Muslims.

Your theological assertions here are not based on fact. Ain't the same deity AT ALL.

Next time, choose your words more judiciously.

on-my-own-in-berkeley said...

Hi Dymphna,

That's my understanding of scientism as well. I asked the wrong question. I was wondering how you connect scientism to the larger topic of the liberal/leftist Western response to Muslims' defying our laws in our countries. Or if you do.

If you have the time and inclination to respond, I'd be most interested.

NorseAlchemist said...

@Cyril, The Christians did their fair share of raping and murdering. It's not like they were that much of a civilizing force. History is rife with the "barbarities" of your civilizing religion, but it is not my intent to get into that.

@Dymphana, I'm not that new a "convert" as you put it. Just one who sees things strongly. YOu say you have no problem with my first "rule to live by" but that the second is unacceptable, because "We have the western rule of law."

I find this funny, at least in a rather ironic sense. The above article is all about how the "Western Laws" are failing utterly to solve the problem and protect the people they are meant to protect. If then, the rule of law is what protects us and makes vengeance unnecessary and unacceptable, what then is it when those laws fail in their duty? Is there anything left but vengeance? I think there is, it is capitulation, submission, and acceptance of the wrongs. I would that we all lived in a world where there was justice, but your own site has shown time and again how justice of the West has failed, and how the "justice" of the East is starting to take over.

Take umbrage with my tone, if you will. I have no intentions of taking vengeance yet, as I not lost any to this fight. But there are those who are not as far away from a from the "front lines." That is what I pointed out. It will happen. It has happened once already. It doesn't take a seer to see it will likely happen again. Say my words are inappropriate if you like, but there is little left in this world that is appropriate. There is only reality, and I fear it has grown far too ugly.

1389 said...

IMO, this is a good reason to ban not only the burqa, but also the hijab.

See: Burqa brouhaha in Nashville

"Even the hijab alone, by which I mean just the head/neck scarf, without the niqab (i.e., the face veil), serves as an “in your face” confrontation. The hijab is a visual sign of the wearer’s rejection of the customs and the community ties of native-born Americans and even of the sensibilities of those immigrants who came to the US because they approve of what we stand for (or of what the US once stood for). It is an implied statement that normal American women who do not cover their heads are somehow 'immodest.'"

Nick said...

One can of course ‘protect one’s kin’ by ensuring that one’s country is run according to a sensible set of laws. And the people who have taken the trouble to educate themselves on the subject of Islam will need to do whatever they can, to that end.

The notion of the selfish rabble we have seen in the UK just now ever doing anything for anyone but themselves is laughable. They won’t bother until it’s too late, and even then they won’t care so long as they get new trainers when they want them, and they’re able to watch Simon Cowell’s latest project on a decent sized flat screen.

There has been much talk recently about the moral collapse of Britain, and of punishing the rioters for what they have done. The problem though is not that these people need to realise that their actions will have unpleasant consequences. The problem is that saying that right and wrong exist, and are meaningful moral concepts, has for some time now been verboten. Hence we arrive back at the original suggestion that Christianity has the potential to revive the United Kingdom.

One of the things that we can do therefore, is reclaim our Christian heritage, and educate people about actual Christian beliefs. We can also undermine the ridiculous concept that all religions are the same. Clearly this is a logical impossibility. Islamic teachings are completely contrary to those of Christianity in many ways. Islam denies the divinity of Christ and denies the crucifixion. So Islam can never be compatible with Christianity. And Christianity is rightly seen by people in the West as a religion which can be practiced peacefully and in private. Not so with Islam, which has an inbuilt political component not dissimilar to the concept of Gleichschaltung (co-ordination or bringing into line) employed by the Nazis in their post-1933 era.

I suggest that one thing we can all do, as individuals, is try to break through the state-enforced silence on such issues and do everything we can to educate our fellow citizens. The truth about Islam, its teachings and its history, is indeed out there. Let’s make it known.

NorseAlchemist said...

@Nick, Right, because the best way to battle a totalitarian religion is with another religion that has a history of being just as bloody and totalitarian.

You're making people like me real comfortable. :P

See, I think there's a better way to fight them, and it's not with the forces that are similar, but different, to theirs. See, you're method is like saying "Let us fight the eating of Halal foods by eating Kosher!" Me, I have a different outlook. For me it's fighting the proverbial "Halal" way of life by living the opposite. They say not to eat ham, I say eat ham. They say do not drink fermentation, I say "let us drink the sacred brews." They say "Cover your women lest they cause men to sin." I say "Let women be uncovered, for there is no sin."

The best way, in my eyes, is not to fight their religion of a distant unknowable god with another religion of a distant and unknowable god. They look to the after life, I say look to this life. They submit to a god they cannot know, I walk beside gods I know as close as any blood kin I have. I will not push my religion on another, but the best way to fight a thing is not with a similar thing, especially when it is an ideology. It is with the opposite, with the very thing they fear.

Christianity doesn't have too good a record fighting Islam. Oh, it's held out from time to time, but it's been losing ever since they met. Maybe it's time to try something else.

You New said...

Norse Alchemist,

I recall you pecking away with similar posts about a year or two ago. (Except the new part where vengence is the secret to life). Appreciate your interest in your religion--sounds interesting, no problem with that, you do your thing and I do mine.

It's just that your view of other people's Christianity seems to be virtually identical to both the COMMON liberal/progressive view--Christianity is roughly equivalent to Islam. Anyone who believes that is a dupe (follower), an idiot (follower), or are among those who feel good about breaking down Western social structures. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If you don't have the inclination to study the differences for yourself, you might note the surprising number of agnostics who back Christian values, tendencies and contributions.

Real religion is exoterically about honesty, truth, admitting our faults and trying to be helpful and the highest good (not to be confused with idealism).

In the Christian, Taoist, Buddhist or Vedic religions it is recommended in various ways to be careful about being vengeful. Why is raw vengeance considered foolish by all these faiths?

Of today's religions, only Islam has that impulsiveness you seem to seek.

Real religion can handle fake religion. Real Christianity, if we can only find it, can easily handle secondary problems like Islam.

Zenster said...

You can bet the families of the elitists thought they were safe from the maelstrom they’d visited on their fellow-citizens in the name of their Utopian fantasies. Now Breivik has changed that calculus. Even as a Nordic loner, he has made the elites see they’re not safe from the effects of the lethal political games they play with others’ lives.

Thank you for having the courage to connect these dots. I have been reluctant to make similar statements here due to the risk of flagging by Blogger.

Breivik is just the iceberg's tip with respect to now-crystallizing European anger. Europe's Liberal elite will soon discover just how dangerous it was for them to have put in place so many protections for their pet Muslims.

Shielded as European Muslims are, this smoldering discontent will find an outlet elsewhere, as it did on Ütoya a few weeks ago. This focus upon policy makers is something I been predicting for quire a while.

It is also increasingly difficult to hold Islam solely accountable for driving all of this mayhem. Even now, it's policy of hijra and dawa remain prime movers with respect to much of Europe's violence.

Yet, as political betrayal becomes ever more abject ― as we have seen in Sweden, Norway and Britain ― more of these "discontinuities" (per El Inglés) will, however lamentably, become the norm.

Zenster said...

You New: If you don't have the inclination to study the differences for yourself, you might note the surprising number of agnostics who back Christian values, tendencies and contributions.

Speaking as a devout Agnostic, I applaud your recognition of this. It is my sincere hope that Christianity, as a whole, will soon come to understand that an alliance with non-Atheists (such as Agnostics), and other legitimate world religions will be vital in overthrowing Islam.

The yawning chasm that separates honorable, charismatic Christianity and violent, coercive Islam is so profound as to instantly negate all attempts at establishing any moral relativism between the two.

Expelliarmus13 said...

We will only succeed when the rotten core of traitors within our midst will be disposed of. We cant 'fight' the threat without a plan, without an alliance, without true leaders! We are completly unorganised and this is taken advantage of.
Silly as this may sound, i still believe we can change something. We still live in (partially) democtratic countries, we still have a chance to vote. It is only up to us to change our leaders.
But for that, we need to be given an alternative. That's what we're lacking here. A solid alternative.
Will this come sometime soon? Maybe not in these elections, but i defenetly hope that things will start boiling after 4/5 more years of the same BS we've been getting for so long.

NorseAlchemist said...

@You new, I'm not saying vengeance is the secret to life. I'm just saying that vengeance is a part of life, especially when "law and justice" has failed.

In reality, my view of Christianity is not the same as the Common Liberal/Progressive view that it is the same as Islam. But they a) do have similar histories of repression and violence against "non-believers" and both view themselves as the "Truth" and as "Civilization" amongst "Barbarity. And If you pay attention, you will see that I am most stringent about Christianity when those advocating it are advocating Christian Theocracy to fight Muslim Theocracy. I am speaking against such talk. Theocracy is not the answer.

Also, I would argue "real religion" being esoteric about stuff. There are many real religions out there that focus less on the esoteric and more on the physical.

As for why the Christian, Taoist, Buddhist and Vedic religions all say to be careful about vengeance? If you look at said religions, they all focus on the next world or the afterlife or enlightenment which transcends this world and leaves it behind. Non-violence, peace, etc, these are their ways. Turning the other cheek, being meek, refusing power. They deny this world for a better one, and so they deny the forces of this world, like vengeance, and denigrate it and call it foolish and evil.

Islam is impulsive, yes, but considering it's sister religions of Judaism and Christianity also had their periods of mass reactionary violence ordered by their god. Perhaps it is the only one that maintains it, but I hear plenty of stories of modern day Christians doing similar actions in Africa, Haiti, and South America.

Dymphna said...

@Expelliarmus13 --

Who decides the question of identifying the "rotten core of traitors"...

I'm curious since I read that very description aimed at us, GoV: the hate site, the racist site, yaddah, yaddah.

So names don't help. Describing behaviors might be a start.And then joining up with like-minded people to elect more responsible politicians is key.

Look at what the Tea Party -- again, described by a TV "news" person as consisting of "loner white guys who haven't had a job in 3 years" -- look at what they did in Wisconsin against the bullying unions & the distorting MSM. Wisconsin now has a surplus instead of the $3bn deficit under Lefist union rule. We can take heart at what can be done by "loner white guys who haven't had a job in three years".

As I said in an earlier post, this major pushback against govt unions & media blackouts proves that we CAN turn things around. Unions hugely outspent the GOP & TP. GOP caved, but the TP provided their spine.

You may find yourself "completely unorganized" but many ppl do NOT. They join up with the Tea Party, with ACT for America, with state orgs like Tennessee's Freedom Coalition, etc. They join their local Conservative, Libertarian, or GOP activists.

No group is perfect. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. Find a group, join, and start to work. It worked in Wisconsin. find the people where you live who are making it work.

Dymphna said...

@ Norse Alchemist--

Stop the Christian-bashing. Much as you love being a magic-minded Viking, your world view is gone w/ no hope of retrieval.

And NO, Christianity did not lose all the battles. Gates of VIENNA? Or read up on the take back of Spain...

..or the failures along the borders of France. Islam retreated. They'd still be where except for oil. This fluke of geology will fade & they'll sink again into those hellholes because they never appreciably improved anything, including themselves, while they were King of the Hill.

Maybe before the oil’s all gone, an Ashkenazi Jew somewhere will create a replacement for the petrol-guzzling combustion engine. Presto! Islam’s Instant Irrelavance.

It sure won't be a Viking knocking on the patent office door with his invention, nor will it be an Arab Muslim. An Indian? Maybe…

Christian culture is on the wane unless it figures out a modus vivendi with the fissioning modern world.

Islam will fade eventually; history seems to show that no totalitarian, top down political realm can last - too rigid, not resilient enough. China has lasted longer than most, but it's an old hand at barbaric control.

NorseAlchemist said...


Stop the Christian bashing? I thought I'd made it clear I was only bashing those Christians that either a) were calling for a totalitarian theocracy or b) tried to pretend that Christians had never done horrible things in the name of their god. Excuse me for standing for freedom and truth.

You say my magic minded viking world is gone without hope of retrieval? I will respectfully have to disagree. So would thousands of others in an ever growing movement. Besides, those "lost ways" lasted for thousands of years longer than the mere fifteen hundred years of Christian power, or the two thousand of its existence. They're beliefs are the foundations of our way of life, freedom, individuality, courage, strenght, loyalty, etc. Should you be right, and these things be truly lost with no hope of revival, you might as well shut your site down now, for I had thought that those were the things you were trying to defend. But perhaps in the years since this site was formed, it has gone from a bastion of freedom to an advocate for a totality that is christian, rather than islamic.

It won't be a Viking knocking on the door to the patent office, you say? You have posted many an article by Fjordman who shown that our ancient and frozen homelands bred clever people who often became highly skilled in all manner of things. If you think it is our religion that will prevent it, then I might want to remind you how us barbarians managed to out-invent those we despoiled for those famous few centuries.

As for Christians defeating Islam, oh, sure you had your moments. But I would like to remind you that it was the Varagian guard that kept Muslims out of Constantinople and slowed their advance when your Christian armies couldn't do it. Gates of Vienna? sure, you pushed them back after they had driven to the very heart of Europe. Or perhaps you speak of Dracula and his wondrous tactics. Yes, very Christian (and you may take that both ways.) And might I remind you that it was Heathen Danes that stood with Christian men to push the Muslims back into Spain, or did you forget the One Eyed Dane that is called Ogre? It was because of him I found this site, and why I first sought to join the cause of freedom from religious tyranny. But perhaps I was wrong, and religious domination is considered only wrong if it comes from the moon, and not the cross.

Stop my bashing? I seek only to point out hypocrisy. I speak for freedom of all peoples and religions.

Gone without a hope are my ancient peoples' ways? I would leave you with the words of Chruchill, who face the Nazis. "Any civilization that goes down fighting, shall rise again. Those that surrender, shall never be heard from after."

Funny, I remember about three centuries of my people fighting to the very end. Longer, if you count all the other Germanic/Teutonic tribes.

There is always hope. Remember that.

Nick said...

If those are the only two groups you are 'bashing' then you are 'bashing' a straw man. Two in fact.

Freedom and truth? Hardly.

I suggest you take the blog owner's advice.

Sagunto said...

NorseAlchemist -

"As for Christians defeating Islam, oh, sure you had your moments.."

Let's put that down to a relative lack of knowledge about the Christian history of Europe. An in depth study of the events that provided this Blog, GoV, with its very name, would suffice to correct this downplaying of Christians fighting Islam.

Allow me to fill some knowledge-gaps with a shortlist of events, featuring Christian leaders shaping European history, and ask your opinion:

- Charles ("the Hammer") Martel and his men.. weren't they Christian leaders, when they defeated the Muslim invaders at Poitiers, AD 732?
- Perhaps St. Thomas Aquinas who expanded the Christian notion of just war, also some kind of a "misunderstander" of dhimmi Christianity?
- The battle or siege of Belgrade, AD 1455, which "decided the fate of Christendom" and is still commemorated by victorious noon bells (ordered at the time by Pope Callixtus III) to this day. Also not a victory against Muslims by typical Christian leaders?
- The Spanish "Reconquista" surely had something to do with Christianity and Christian leaders, did it not? Perhaps they weren't Vladist impalers, but that wasn't like anything resembling a pillow-fight with the Muslim armies, was it?
- The crucial victory at Lepanto AD 1571, one of history's most decisive naval battles, remembered in Chesterton's poem, also not fought by Christian leaders against Muslims? Dhimmi Christian wimps having a lucky break again?
- And as primus inter pares: Pope Innocent XI (ok, sounds a bit "dhimmisch", but don't be fooled by that name), who managed to unite the ehm.. well, Christian armies of Europe and call them to the Battle at the Gates of Vienna against the Muslim Turks. This Pope, the initiator of the Holy League, forging an alliance between the German Estates and the King of Poland, pressing the Christian leaders to expel the Turks from Hungary and beyond. This Pope also not a Christian leader then?
- Or the notable King Jan III Sobiesky of Poland, who first prayed with his men to the Holy Virgin Mary, then defeated the Turks and was later dubbed by these Muslims as "the Lion of Lechistan"? Does that sound like a nick for a Dhimmi Christian?
- Let's march on with those leading Christian misunderstanders of Christianity, and proceed with the wholesale expulsion of the Turks from Hungary by Christian leaders ;-) ... and so on, and so forth.

I forgot to mention the Crusaders of course, and Christian leader Pope Urban II, rallying Christian leaders for the 1st Crusade.

It's altogether a shortened shortlist, I know, for history provides us with a sheer endless account of these fairly "unmeekly" displays of power by Christian leaders, churchmen and armies, who went on the offensive against the Muslim invaders in the Holy Land and the European "Abendland".

So I firmly agree with you on at least one point: there's always hope.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,

Sagunto said...


NorseAlchemist -

With the concluding perspective of my previous post in mind, I'd like to second both YouNew and Zenster's remarks, and widen the "scope of hope" even further by rephrasing the latter's comment:

"It is my sincere hope that all freedom loving people will soon come to understand that an alliance with Christianity and other legitimate world religions will be vital in overthrowing Islam."

Meanwhile, it is always interesting to know a little more about the scholarly sources you rely upon, when making claims about the horrible things Christians have done, or why "religious domination" by the Christian faith is somehow equivalent to the domination of Islam.
Perhaps you have some detailed knowledge about the theocratic rule of Jean Calvin in Geneva, or the Anabaptist terror in Münster, after their takeover of the city. Then we'd perhaps be able to find some common ground, for there are indeed some (imperfect) parallels to be drawn here.
So I hope you'll appreciate my genuine interest in knowing your sources and rest assured that I won't mind if you wish to be very specific.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,

Dymphna said...

@ Norse Alchemist--


Enough on this thread already. Your 15 minutes are up. Heed Mr. Churchill's admonition:

A fanatic is someone who can’t change his mind, and won’t change the subject.

You're welcome in the comments at GoV as long as you don't talk about Vikings or bash religion.

To quote Winnie again:

Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak. Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

On these subjects, you have reached Door #2.

Dymphna said...

Just to make things perfectly clear, NA:

You can only judge how we treat other commenters by making inferences, since you never see what doesn't end up in the public view.

However your visits here, both now and in the past, are good examples of what is meant by "sending a comment thread sideways"...i.e., what started with the usual variety of thoughtful responses TO THE POST ITSELF went right 'round that bend in the road as soon as you appeared & began beating your Viking drum -- and bashing a few heads in the process.

You also aren't in the cc list of the complaint emails we get re your relentlessness.

Sooo...wash, rinse, repeat. Leave the same way you did last time: slamming the door on your way out.

No, our point is NOT to "bash Islam". If you think that, then you haven't paid sufficient attention to our posts.

The point of our work is to push back against the stealth (and-not-so-stealth) incursions of sharia totalitarianism into our culture. That culture rests on the pillars of Greek reasoning, Roman legislation, Jewish morality, and a broadly (post) Christian mileu.

Any who are invested in preserving that ethos will find ways to halt the cruel totalitarian Salafists

Vaya con Dios, Norseman. Hope we meet in Valhalla.

Expelliarmus13 said...

@Dymphna: Well, bad publicity is always publicity and can have positive effects as well, even if not intended..
Let me start by saying, that this 'bashing' of your blog made me curious and that's what brought me here from the start. I just wanted to see how far the media went with its exageration. I had no idea of the existence of this blog and similar ones before. This was frustrating for me, as I was always viewing myself as one of the very few who saw what 'appears' to be going on and felt helpless! Since having read many of the things posted here, I feel totaly relieved to see that other people from the Western World see the threat we are facing. And being able to have contact to you all is a big deal for me.
Maybe I'm not the only one that found her way here 'thanks' to the press.

The second issue I would like to address concerns what you said regarding many people being actually politically organised. While this may be true for the US, where their movements seem to crystallize to something more than just ideas, i'm afraid that this does not overall, especially Germany, where I live now. There is not a great alternative really. This country lacks conservative/nationalist parties, which could actually have a thing or two to say. Sure, there are some mini-parties, but the problem is, not many people are aware of their existance... Let's face it, 'why would we ever want nationalism here in Germany? We all know how bad ended the last time we tried..' They have this feeling of over-guilt. Hitler's been dead for more than 70 years and they still can't get over it. I'm not saying to act as if nothing ever happened, but still...
So the power of conservative parties is quite small over here. There is nothing here which can compare to the Tea-Party!
I'm not sure if you read in the press, but after the Breivik-attack, the leaders of the socialist party demaded a contitutional ban of the NPD (for those who dont know, this is the national democratic party, which are always regarded to as Nazis). (BTW: 'Who in the right mind would even vote for these nutters?' - that's the attitude you get). The SPD even suggested a law to monitorize 'extremist behaviours' and 'organised crime on the internet'- ie: everyone not with us, is against us.
This party seems to be favourite in winning the next general elections, and this, only because many people arent pleased with the way Merkel is handling the Euro-crisis. They even won local elections only because fukushima happened and the people scared sh***ess thought: HEY; these guys are against Atomic Energy! They will prevent anything like that from happening here. This, without even considering the rest of their political agenda.
Now, how many people that share our views and live here (Germany) would feel safe knowing that they've got bugs in their PCs and everything they do/write/visit is carefully monitored by the state?... kinda brings back memories from eastern Germany. Oh, nostalgia.
My point here is, we dont have a solid alternative here (yet), which could be taken seriously by the others. You say, find a group and start working. Fine with me! I'm currently studying at a Uni here in Germany and all the youth political groups here are left winged. I have NEVER seen a poster or an add on campus, about right conservative parties. So, not much of a choice, dont ya think? As for taking the initiative and 'grounding' my own group here: well, I'm an imigrant myself (from one of the newer members of EU), so it would be quite odd having a foreigner actually starting a conservative group defending national german values...

Dymphna said...


It would be a big help when establishing a profile, to add a little info. Heck, make stuff up. Be humorous. Get creative. And add a contact email if at all possible.

You can establish some kind of encrypted email address if you feel concerned about confidentiality. I don't know how to do that, but it you write us at the email contact on the upper left-hand sidebar,I'll give you what info we've been sent on that problem by other EUros.

Your comment, all 637 words, is really too long to be a comment. It's not that what you have to say isn't interesting - it certainly is! - but if it were a post instead, you could re-start another good conversation on how to be an activist in an mc/pc totalitarian democracy like those in Europe.

I'm not singling Germany out since other nothern European polities face similar issues & dangers.

As for universities, they are prisons of silence. They are like that here, too, though again, ppl have fought back in some creative ways.

Here's an American group:

FIRE:Foundation for Individual Rights in Education

They do a lot of good work, but I don't know their funding source. Here's more info with a lot of links:

FIRE wiki

It includes one from 2007 by one of our favorite economists and essayists:

Academic Cesspools
Because many welfare states are facing economic implosions, (including the US), some sort of major discontinuity is coming. But no one can judge the timing or exactly how the edifice will fall. Think of the World Trade Center. As horrific as that was, what might have been the total Ground Zero acreage if they hadn't fallen straight down as they did...

PLEASE: limit comments to ~300 or so words. You can break them up, or even better, space them out. In our experience, very long comments skew the thread (the subject at hand) and tend to silence those who write shorter comments.

Meanwhile, please consider permitting me to use your comment as a POST. It contains so many concerns that need to be addressed. But best of all, ppl. in Europe could discuss in the comments on YOUR post their own experience, their successes and failures.

It's a conversation that is dying for a speaker.

You can let me know via email or you could write to us in a comment that I would keep private, i.e., UNpublished.

Expelliarmus13 said...

Hello Dymphna. Sorry for the long comment, but i just had to let that out somehow :D I didnt even realize it was that long until after i published it.

you can, of course, use anything i write over here, if you think is worthy of consideration. This goes for the Baron as well. If he finds anything interesting, then by all means...

I will also 'pimp' my profile, but probably not in the near future, due to a serious lack of time at the moment.

i am indeed really concerned about confidentiality, so it would be great if you had any information to share. my mail:

have a nice day :)