Monday, August 22, 2011

Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff on Urban Infidel

Elisabeth's Voice banner 3

Our Austrian correspondent Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff was featured yesterday afternoon on Urban Infidel’s Blog Talk Radio program.

I neglected my duty and forgot to mention it before air time, but anyone who wants to hear Elisabeth talk about her case and answer questions from callers can listen to the permanent podcast here.

Most of you already know that earlier this year Elisabeth was convicted in a Vienna courtroom of “denigration of religious beliefs of a legally recognized religion”. Her “crime” was to refer to Mohammed’s sexual predilections as evidenced by his marriage to a nine-year-old girl — an event described in an authentic hadith from Islamic scripture.

In other words, to describe Islam accurately in its own words is to “denigrate” it.

For previous posts on the “hate speech” prosecution of Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff, see Elisabeth’s Voice: The Archives.


trencherbone said...

By the tenth anniversary of Pearl Harbor, both Nazism and Japanese Imperialism had been destroyed.

We are now approaching the tenth anniversary of 9/11, and Islam is stronger and more arrogantly aggressive than ever.

It is time that we followed the example of the Greatest Generation, and put into action a global strategy to destroy Islam both spiritually and materially.

Expelliarmus13 said...

@trencherbone: I really disagree with you on this one. You can't compare Nazism and Japanese Imperialism to a so called religion that has more than 1 BILLION believers world wide and counting. These are 2 completly different things. It's not only the numbers, but the circumstances as well.

Second of all, I think that by telling people to 'destroy Islam' you're doing the exact same thing they're doing. THEY are the ones wanting to destroy everything in their way, NOT US.

Altough we all are united against the idea of having our western culture submitted to Islam, distruction is not the way to go. We cant beat them, if we become like them. It will only make it worse for us. HATE and DISTRUCTION ARENT traits that define us. It defined THEM. WE, on the other hand, are definded by LOVE and RESPECT for our values. We love and respect even those who dont feel the same about us, as long as they mind their own business. THAT’S the difference between us. (from a politically correct point of view, i might be condemned for saying this with things like 'there isnt any them or us. It's all a big us' -- Yeah, right, of course there is! That's why we all want different things.)

Plus, even if we consider the fact that Islam has many negative parts and is highly dangerous because it can easily lead to extremism ('which simply isnt true, it is a peaceful religion' --- as many want to point out nowadays), our interests lie in defending our own culture and nations.

We are not interested in 'bringing the muslim people on the right path' --- is there a right path? , or 'helping them because it's for their own good', 'or trying to make them see a better life than that of abiding by 6th century laws'. Even if these things sound nice and ok for a democracy loving person, this is NOT what we are supposed to be interested in.

I believe we should be interested in preserving our freedom and values, which appear to be in danger, not in destroying something else. Islam is posing a threat, because we are letting it be one. Plus, most of the muslims are so indoctrinated and intoxicated with this poison, that they will NEVER get out of it. I know you are passionate about your aversion for Islam, but we need to face the reality. You simply cant destroy it.

We can only defeat it from taking over the things for which we stand for and are dear to us the most.

Dymphna said...

@ trencherbone-

First, I agree with your ideas in the post you linked to in your comment. However, I almost didn't let the comment itself through because of its tone. In place of inflammatory words, I wish you'd quoted yourself.

After saying "There can be no violent solution" you liken our task to the defeat of Communism:

Islam may appear hard, but it is also brittle. A small crack anywhere in the structure can spread throughout...

This...hypersensitive defensiveness and outrage at criticism are not the reactions of a confident belief system, but of an information-control cult. These reactions are evidence of an attempt to protect a fatal vulnerability, an attempt to cover an Achilles heel.

Those are good arguments.

The difference is that Communism imploded. It fell of its own rotten weight. The task of the earlier generation was to stave off encroachments and wait for that implosion.

I agree with you that witness/martyrs like Father Zakaria Botros are crucial. Eventually Islam will fail anyway because oil will run out. So they're in a race against time. When some brilliant person creates a practical alternative to the petrol-guzzling internal combustion engine, then it's game over. At least once the new 'engine' is up and running.

You have some excellent ideas, but the hyperbole gets in the way of putting your ideas across effectively. Take a page from the OIC propagandists:

1. Always keep the goal in mind.
2. Keep your language moderate.
3. Sound rational and reasonable at all times.
4. Explain the problems of your opponent in civil terms.
5. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

RE: #4... your post about the ways in in which Islam destroys the conscience. Ignoring the inflammatory rhetoric, your take-away point is spot on:

Islam is not about following one's conscience, but about correct behavior. If one imitates the behaviors of Mohammed (The Perfect Man), then one has done all that is required to be a good Muslim. Hence ethical principles, as we understand them, are not a part of Islam.

Exactly right. As is this:

With no system of morality or ethics as we would understand it, the greatest good is to work towards Islam's domination of the entire world, and to achieve this objective any means are justified...

You have studied your subject well. But rhetoric will drive ppl away. And if your audience is made up of ppl like Expelliarmus13, which it often will be, your excellent analysis will be lost. Peter Drucker said, "Communication is the act of the recipient". Thus, if your interlocutor is turned off by a "DESTROY ISLAM" motif (and those who have been indoctrinated with PC/MC will definitely be turned off) then the meat is left untouched.

And that is the tragedy because your basic ideas are excellent.

Look at this example for tone:
Whittaker Chambers, Communism, and Islam

It's scholarly but immensely readable. I can't stay at the computer for long so the Baron formatted and printed it for me. I keep re-reading it. Dr. Bostom is the examplar when it comes to writing about this subject.

Expelliarmus13 said...

@ Dymphna: Could you please tell me what exactly did you mean by saying 'if your audience is made up of ppl like Expelliarmus13, which it often will be' who most probably 'have been indoctrinated with PC/MC' ? Is it your saying what i think you're saying? Talk about jumping to conclusions.

The mere fact that i prefered to point out that his/her approach is not right puts me in a certain category of people. How lucky for me, since there seem to be more like that our there. At least I'm not alone. And this, only because of the fact that i believe distruction is not a good approach. And probably the least successful, if you think about how these people are brought up. They are poisend starting from day 1. No matter what point you will make and how convincing you will ever be and how many facts they will be confronted with, they will never listen. I dont know about you, but Don Quijote doesnt seem a good role model. Well, probably i must get used to the idea that maybe negative energies might actually keep us going. No?

Now, it is messages like this one, with negative elements in them, that actually give the media the gass they need in order to keep bashing this and other blogs like this one. You see, it makes a perfect story for your bored, uninspired, second hand journalist who doesnt have any ideas whatsoever. He has evidence of all the 'naughty naughty' things the people here are talking... They dont care what he/she wrote in his/her article. They only care of taking things out of context. So yeah, it really is a turn off. Being as verbally aggressive as ManUtd/Arsenal fans wont get us anywhere.

It is obvious that 'the rest of you people', who are not like people as myself, obviously, have no idea what it self-censorship. Well, i have the communist country where i grew up in to thank. It REALLY takes a lot of creativity to put together your message and make it reach the target without being considered violent or unorthodox. Believe me, it IS NASTY. And i really hope none of you will actually have to go through something similar. But this skill comes in handy in the current situation. You can guess why. The principle still applies: Less IS more (at the beginning). The key point is attracting people and then giving them more and more and more.

And could you please develop what you said here: Eventually Islam will fail anyway because oil will run out. So they're in a race against time.? Do you mean to say that Islam's powered by... the oil some saudis have their a**** on? I would actually like to believe that, when the bottom of the oil sack will be visible, the whole system will collapse, but i cant.

Wanna know my Hitchcock scenario? Let's assume that Islam took over the western world and ran out of oil 100 years after that. What will happen? Well, all of them will live in a poverty similar to Iran or Afghanistan. The little people will be happy. It will be the simple islamic life. Just like in Muha's days. It will be a whole new version of back to the dark ages. But this time, they're even darker. The people will be happy this way, because they are indoctrinated to want this. They wont complain about the bad conditions they have. Just like women are indoctrinated to wanting the hijab. I actually wonder if there will be any jew's or christians left? I dont even wanna think what will happen to the others.
I believe it is urgent that we find a solution out of this whole s*** before they get to 'conquer' the western world.

If there is no escape out of this situation and we are going to get crushed, then i set all my hopes in 23.12.2012. As they say: Between 2 evils.... ;)

So, if you find my comment offending in anyway, then feel free to just not post it. It doesnt really matter anymore.

Dymphna said...


First thing, let me apologize to you.
I was quite careless in my wording and I see how you could reasonably assume I was insulting you. I wasn't. But as I said there, 'communication' is the act of whoever reads what we say. The reader or listener decides what we mean.

You asked me:

@ Dymphna: Could you please tell me what exactly did you mean by saying 'if your audience is made up of ppl like Expelliarmus13, which it often will be' who most probably 'have been indoctrinated with PC/MC'?

But before letting me answer this question, you appear to decide for your own self "exactly" what I meant. And from there you decide I was "jumping to conclusions". There are some unexamined corollaries, there, but that's not important.

Your decision is followed by 639 further words full of conclusions about the ramifications of my judgment of you. At least I think that's it.

I won't go into the arguments you make; they're probably quite good ones but I simply don’t have the time or energy to address them. However, I'd like to walk back my original statement, the one you find judgmental, and elaborate on it:

One thing I did wrong was to assume you could have known about the many exchanges through the years in our comments section re the phenomena of multi-culturalism and politically correct thinking. It took literally years of a back-and-forth dialogue about what defintions to apply to those two terms to even approach a common understanding. This required us to examine our own thinking (and our speaking) carefully, because we knew/know the over-arching paradigm in any culture rules that culture's speech adn thought patterns. It places strictures on even those who don’t agee with the tenets of pc/mc.

Lots of times those comments threads were so long and so thick I couldn’t follow them. Severe fibromyalgia limits what I can take on. However, despite my dislike of learning this about myself, I had to accept I was a prisoner of that very system. I wanted to see myself as having escaped; looking closely at what I often left out my heart sank. I was in the same trap.

Sometimes I return to an old post to read a bit of Hesperado’s ideas on the subject. He was a bright, harsh teacher but sometimes he was hard to follow. OTOH, he didn’t limit his criticque to one field, either – like, say, leftie-feminists or politicians or media-speak. Hesperado really did cover a wide range. So did Sagunto. Zenster, when he can limit himself to a moderate amount of words, is excellent.

Using you as an example was random, almost accidental. You’d introduced yourself as someone more or less new to our blog, and also you’d commented below Trencherbone’s unfortunate words. If I’d been thinking I’d have used myself as an example. In fact, had you not happened to show up right then, I would have used my own experience.

I’m very fatigued – part of this damned disorder – so I can’t address the rest of your essay. Skimming thru it, however, I do get that you’re angry and feel I’ve insulted you. I’m sorry for any pain I may have caused you. Just because I didn’t intend to hurt you doesn’t make it any less insulting for you.

Let’s try again, if you’re willing. But I have to deal with paragraphs, not essays. If you’ll choose whichever of your ideas you consider the most crucial, we could start there.

Engineer-Poet said...

If you really want to do damage to Islam, you have to de-fund it.  Islam is funded by oil revenues (really and truly; that is where the Saudi mosque funding and da'wa money and funds to hire ex-policy makers comes from).  To cut those off, you need to conserve, replace, and otherwise do without oil in your personal life (call it "sacrifice" if you want), and back measures to make sure the USA and the West as a whole do the same.

This means a whole lot of stuff that doesn't sound a lot like counter-jihad activity, such as using a plug-in car, doing without the driving vacations and promoting a shift from taxes on work (like FICA) to taxes on fuel, but it all comes together as less money and power to OPEC, the Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia and the purchase of treasonous pols everywhere.

(I know there are plenty of people for whom masculinity and patriotism are tied up with driving around in a big truck, no matter what it costs to run.  These are the people you have to persuade.  Asking them what mileage they get and converting that into "cents per mile to OPEC" might start some of them down that road.)

We do have alternatives to running everything on oil-burning engines.  I can write about them at length, but this is not the place.  Just trust me on this, or follow my blog and my comments on TypePad.

Expelliarmus13 said...

@Dymphna: Not being able to make out the 'tone' of your comment, i assumed something at the beginning. Indeed, i felt quite offended and surprised. But knowing that you didnt mean it the way i understood it changes things. We're good now :)

I'm really sorry to hear about your condition. I know you must have been really going through a lot lately, but I'm sure you will overcome it.
According to one of my life philosophies, i believe that nothing ever happens without a reason, and that, in the end, there will always be a positive outcome. You might not see it immediatly, but you will eventually, as some more time passes.
Another philosophy is that, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger (although i dont necessarely agree with it --- breaking a rib usually doesnt make you any stronger --- it is supposed to bring out a positive outcome).

Just hold on there! >:D< (hugs)

BTW. Regarding the length of my comments/posts: This message boy is really small. I dont even realize when it gets filled up. What's more, i cant keep track of my tiping, since the word numbers arent displayed here. Sorry, i promise i will write less in the future.

@Engineer-Poet: The problem is, the situation is not going to change only because you, me and a few others arent going to support their industry anymore. We need far more than that :(

Engineer-Poet said...

If you have trouble tracking your length, compose in Notepad and paste into the text box.  I do it for almost everything.  Doing a preview before posting helps too.

Of course it takes more than a few people to shake up our dependence on oil.  But there are things you can do to start the ball rolling, such as pushing your elected officials to raise gas taxes to re-fill the federal and state road funds.  Once you've gotten that "impossible" thing done, it unlocks other doors.

I'd suggest encouraging work and discouraging fuel consumption by giving a deductible on Social Security taxes and paying for it with higher gas and diesel taxes, but that's one of those doors we can't get to just yet.