Sunday, February 28, 2010

Mohawk the Model

The article below is not brand new, but it’s the first I’ve heard of the issue. And I must say, my sympathies lie with the indigenous people in this case.

Tribes (Indian)This story is the type to warm the cruel cockles of a conservative’s heart, because it puts the liberal mind into brain-freeze:

Native Canadians do it, so it must be good. But wait! It’s ethnic cleansing — yow! What can we do? I know — we’ll rename it “preservation of indigenous ethnic heritage”. There. That’ll fix it! Now it’s OK.

You’ll notice that the Indians of the Kahnawake reserve are being strict about their renewal project: they want to get rid of the half-breeds along with the outlanders. Time to purify the blood! The Mohawk chief says, “This isn’t about ethnic cleansing. It’s about self-preservation.”

Indeed it is. So why are the Mohawks in Quebec permitted to practice it, while the Serbs in Bosnia are not?

How about Norwegians in Norway? The Dutch in Holland? The Austrians in Austria? And the English might begin by cleansing Whitehall of all those Scottish interlopers.

Here’s the story from The Winnipeg Free Press:

Mohawk Chief Says Eviction of Non-Natives From Community Not Ethnic Cleansing

MONTREAL — The Mohawk grand chief of the Kahnawake reserve south of Montreal doesn’t like hearing comments that describe the upcoming eviction non-natives from his community as “ethnic cleansing.”

As many as 26 residents considered “non-native” are being forced from the reserve, receiving eviction notices informing them they have 10 days to leave.

Grand Chief Mike Delisle says it’s always been clear that Mohawks living on the reserve must leave the territory if they marry outside the community.

“People out in the exterior Canadian society should educate themselves before they formulate their own opinion,” he said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

“ This isn’t about ethnic cleansing. It’s about self-preservation.”
- - - - - - - - -
The community declared a moratorium on mixed marriages in 1981 and after consultations, a Mohawk membership law was formalized in 1984 and then updated with 2004.

Delisle says the band council is just asking people to abide by the law.

“We’re not looking to be anything like what is being described as the Third Reich or any part of Nazi government,” Delisle said Thursday. “We’re not killing people.”

He’s right about that. Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. Genocide establishes killing as a goal, but during an ethnic cleansing, death is an occasional side effect, not the main task at hand. When two groups hate each other, and one decides to drive the other from its territory, killings occasionally result. But they are a by-product, and not the primary process.

He added that while the law has been in place for the past six years, the issue was only raised by community members at a public forum 18 months ago and it took that long to get a consensus on a course of action.

“Some people have (obeyed the law) and some people have chosen not to and this has created the problem that we are addressing right now,” Delisle said.

Tracey Deer, publisher of The Eastern Door, the local paper and website, says everyone agrees native land is for native people, but the issue is dividing the Mohawk community.

“Everybody’s angry on both sides,” the 31-year-old woman said in an interview.

“They say it’s about time and ‘get these white people out of here’ and then there are people who say we can’t do this and the tension is building.”

Some questions for our Canadian readers: Can they do it? What will the HRCs say about it? Does Quebec have different rules about such matters than the rest of Canada?

Deer, who is married to a Mohawk, says she can’t see how the community will become stronger by splitting up people who are in romantic relationships — some for as long as ten years.

“These people are happy, they are in love and we’re saying ‘No! you can’t,” she said. “This is wrong.”

Deer says young people growing up in the Mohawk community are forced to make tough choices.

“It’s a horrible burden to grow up knowing you have to choose possibly between love with a fellow human being or my community, where my family, my culture and my home is.” she said.

Delisle argues that the contentious issue of the eviction of non-natives is not new, noting that it has come up in the past — in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

He also points to an online poll that suggests more than 60 per cent of the community supports the actions being taken.

Delisle says the band council is not heartless and is willing to negotiate with those who cannot leave within the 10-day eviction period.

But he hints there may be more evictions among the population of 8,000 in the future.

“There are other diverse issues that are going to come up with families that have been here for a long time,” he said.

“This is the beginning of where we’re going to go, I’m not sure where it’s going to end.”

Sandra Schurman, 44, has lived in Kahnawake all her life, and even though she’s recognized by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs as a status Indian, she is not in the Mohawk membership registry.

She was rejected for membership because she did not meet the 2004 law that requires a person to have at least four Mohawk great grandparents.

Schurman, whose 67-year-old mother married a white man, was rejected because elders ruled only three-and-a-half of her four grandparents are native.

Her mother and father, who’s 73, are still living on the reserve.

Schurman may be the next in line to be evicted, but she doesn’t see it happening.

“If they try to evict me they’re going to have to evict every half-breed in Kahnawake and the town would be half empty,” she said.

Schurman said there are at least a couple of hundred of people on the reserve with Mohawk mothers and non-native fathers.

“I’m waiting for all this unfairness to someday be over with,” she said.

“I was raised here, my family is here. I have no other home and as far as I’m concerned I’m a Mohawk and nobody is going to tell me what I’m not.”

As long as different ethnic groups live closely commingled and unassimilated, the tensions leading towards drastic solutions will always be there. Ethnic cleansing is the kinder, gentler alternative to genocide.

The above options are only necessary because of the foolish and/or malign immigration policies practiced by our governments. The matter of Indian tribes in North America is a special case, but what about the Moroccans in Rotterdam? The Arabs in Dearborn? The Somalis just about anywhere?

The policy failures that produced these catastrophes-in-waiting occurred within living memory.

We’re circling the drain now as far as immigration is concerned. Options more pleasant than “ethnic cleansing” are rapidly being foreclosed, if indeed they still remain open.


Hat tip: EscapeVelocity.

159 comments:

Zenster said...

“ This isn’t about ethnic cleansing. It’s about self-preservation.”

Thank you, Grand Chief Mike Delisle, for articulating dar al harb's 21st century survivalist banner.

Saaaaaay ... "Delisle" don't sound like much of any ancestral Mohawk name that I've ever heard before. Sounds like there's a honkey in the woodpile in there somewhere, big guy. It's DNA testing time for you, Mister Chiefie!

The community declared a moratorium on mixed marriages in 1981 and after consultations, a Mohawk membership law was formalized in 1984 and then updated with 2004.

Just the same sort of thing that South Africa's apartheid regime was flogged for, wasn't it?

The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act No 55 of 1949 (commenced 8 July 1949) forbade marriages between Whites and other races.

I seem to recall Islam having similarly restrictive language. To wit:

This day are (all) things
Good and pure made lawful
Unto you. The food
Of the People of the Book
Is lawful unto you
And yours is lawful unto them.
(lawful unto you in marriage)
Are (not only) chaste women
Who are believers, but
Chaste women among
The People of the Book,
Revealed before your time,---
When ye give them
Their due dowers, and desire
Chastity, not lewdness,
Nor secret intrigues
.

Qur'an, 5:6

The aforementioned web site further delineates:

Islam is not exclusive. Social intercourse, including inter-marriage, is permitted with the people of the Book. A Muslim man may marry a woman from their ranks on the same terms as he would marry a Muslim woman, i.e.; he must give her an economic and moral status, and must not be actuated merely by motives of lust or physical desire. A Muslim woman may not marry a non-Muslim man, because her Muslim status would be affected: the wife ordinarily takes the nationality and status given by her husband’s law. A non-Muslim woman marrying a Muslim husband would be expected eventually to accept Islam. Any man or woman, of any race or faith, may, on accepting Islam, freely marry any Muslim woman or man, provided it be from motives of purity and chastity and not of lewdness.105 [Emphasis added]

105 Yusuf Ali, The Holy Quran. Note 799, p. 241.

As to Mohawk “membership laws”, those are entirely of their own affair unless they receive government funding of any sort whereupon they must suddenly meet all sorts of niggling non-discrimination requirements as I am sure that Canadian law has, in similarity to American legislation.

Which returns us to the more central Islamic topic of how it is that this rubbish tip of an ideology gets away with clearly discriminatory practices whilst ostensibly qualifying for government protections and tax exemption even as it violates important legal mandates.

Afonso Henriques said...

"It’s a horrible burden to grow up knowing you have to choose possibly between love with a fellow human being or my community, where my family, my culture and my home is."

"Love with a fellow human being".

In a twisted way, I hate "people". The notion of "people" is so void, so full of nothingness. Yes, every people/person deserves my respect. But my respect towards them is just that respect towards "a fellow human being", that is, the lower kind of respect possible.

I am fascinated how someone describres a person someone cares a lot for, so easily as "a fellow human being".

Those people I like, I like at least to believe I like them because they have certain details that make them so often, under the light of those details... make them so often raise so much above that amorphous mass of "fellow human beings", which, if we analyse it properly, we all despise. Sometimes, even the simple connection or "hope" people put in me is enough to raise them immensely above "all other fellow human beings".

So I have a great difficulty grasping how can one just think about making a choice between a community, a family, a culture... or a "fellow human being".

---------------------------------
Part II

I don't want to attack this Indian women. For as much as I gathered, she and the other human being have been together for more than ten years and the other human being is evidently much more than just "a fellow human being" to her.
However, what I wanted to stress is the emptiness of people's thinking/arguments/mind.

I am probabily also biased. Due to the current catastrophes I've witnessed at distance, I have come to realise how culturally and also racially biased I am in that I felt much more pain for those who suffered less but were somewhat closer than for those who suffered much more severely. It's strange, but I think also natural. That's why we have the saying that "killing a pig is not the same as smashing flies", I guess, and that's probabily why we do not eat dogs and horses but chicken and cows.

Zenster said...

Some questions for our Canadian readers: Can they do it? What will the HRCs say about it? Does Quebec have different rules about such matters than the rest of Canada?

This motion is seconded. As I noted above, it stands to reason that Canada, as a signatory of the UDHR (Universal Declaration of Human Rights), prohibits discriminatory practices with respect to any groups that receive government funding.

However, such may not be the case. Clearly, the Canadian HRC (Human Rights Commission), is more than able to overlook such troublesome and contradictory issues as it goes about its own discriminatory agenda.

To quote Alice, "Curiouser and curiouser ..."

She was rejected for membership because she did not meet the 2004 law that requires a person to have at least four Mohawk great grandparents.

Schurman, whose 67-year-old mother married a white man, was rejected because elders ruled only three-and-a-half of her four grandparents are native.


Can you say, "octoroon"? Very good, I knew you could!

(Scroll down at the link for an intriguing glossary of mixed race terminology.)

Ethnic cleansing is the kinder, gentler alternative to genocide.

Which the Politically Correct Multiculturalists have all but ostracized from common parlance, thereby making genocide just that much more likely per their time-hallowed Law of Unintended Consequences™.

We’re circling the drain now as far as immigration is concerned. Options more pleasant than “ethnic cleansing” are rapidly being foreclosed, if indeed they still remain open.

Duly noted with full concurrence.

Afonso Henriques said...

In the sequence of my last comment, I wanted to show you some words of the great crazy Portuguese writer and thinker Fernando Pessoa. This is taken from Fernando Pessoa's "Serching for the Occult Truth - Philosophical and Esoteric texts" from 1915:

"Humanity does not exist sociologically, it does not exist in the manner of Civilisation. To consider humanity as whole is, virtually, to consider it a Nation; but a Nation that ceases to be a Nation comes to be absolutely it's own environment. A body that becomes absoluteley the environment in which it lives is a dead body. Death is that - the absolute giving of oneself to the outlying environment, the absolute "absortion" into the surrounding outlyings. Due to this, humanitarism and internationalism are concepts of death, only brains cherishing for the inorganic can pleasently concieve it. Every internationalist should face a firing squad so that he obtains what he wants, the true integration into the environment he tends to belong to. There only are Nations, there is no Humanity."

I tend to see is words as harsh but truthfull, if one waits to think about it. And simultaneously I instinctly tend to think like Fernando Pessoa.

Eh... it only bore me how this man, this Absolutist Monarch is today presented as an early leftist and of the multiculturalist kind...

Profitsbeard said...

If the "original inhabitants" / "native peoples" have legally-recognized ("tribal", etc.) self-government, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to continue onward toward the complete extinction of their genotype and loss of their unique culture through intermingling with other "breeds" (identifiable DNA sub-types) of human beings and cultures, or not.

Every free people can decide for themselves if- or how far- they wish to dilute their unique human sub-group and culture.

And, if "native americans" can preserve themselves, then every human "type" and culture (Dutch, Spanish, British) needs to be able to make this same free determination.

To prevent their complete dissolution and disappearance into an unwanted, incoming, radically-different "type" and culture.

Human history is a record of this urge to self-distinction and self-preservation.

Only the recent delusional and unhistorical attempts of multicultural daydreamers opposes this rational struggle for survival.

This leftoid offshoot of pan-socialistic Utopianism is glibly proposed by people who fail to see the value of "unique cultures" ~unless, of course those are the charmingly-distant "alien cultures", infiltrating from without, and which are often contempt-filled groups intent on leeching off of, and ultimately overwhelming and supplanting, the self-weakened and suicidally-naive cultures and genotypes they parasitize.

Free people need to be able to teach the value of their own historical accomplishments (liberty, respect for life, freedom of thought, gender equality, et al) and freely defend their own right to maintain their hard-won achievements of culture and genotype (self-selection for traits that proved valuable for their survival, ascendancy and native 'genius').

Permitting a vapid "everybody is the same" theory to undermine your own culture and people is the road to Oblivion.

Fjordman said...

No Baron, under Multiculturalism whites are not allowed to exist undisturbed, not even in the countries where they are the natives such as mine. Which brings us back to a discussion we have started here earlier. If you say that Western elites, or perhaps we should call them transnational oligarchs as "elites" is how they like to view themselves, are actively involved in dismantling their own civilization then you are quickly denounced as a "conspiracy nut."

But consider how all Western oligarchs reacted to the democratic rejection of minarets in Switzerland: They immediately, from Washington to London, attacked the Swiss and began with thinly veiled threats against them. We often talk about "cultural suicide," but in this well-documented case the Swiss did not want to commit national suicide; it is the transnational Western Multicultural oligarchs who want them to do so. This Globalist agenda is deliberate and well-organized, not accidental.

I am reluctant to use any Marxist words or phrases since I absolutely loathe Marxism, but in certain situations it may make some sense to employ the term "class." There are many angles to use in order to understand what's going on. On one level you can see it as a struggle where the ruling upper classes use mass immigration to intimidate the middle classes and keep them in line while depressing the wages of the underclass. The irony is that the upper classes in doing so are making common cause with the Marxists, who like mass immigration because it destroys the West and because they can use millions of people as guinea pigs for their experiments in social engineering. The ruling oligarchs of the Western world feel no ethnic loyalty whatsoever with other whites. On the contrary, they despise them. Our political system is broken.

I have used the term "neo-feudalism" or "bureaucratic feudalism" before. However, we should remember that feudalism was a necessary transitional stage in European history, and the nobles back then did not mass import Muslims and other hostile aliens to rape and displace their own people. Today's oligarchs do.

One label that has been suggested for these people is transnational Socialists or transnazis. On one level this is good, but these days people often associate the prefix trans- with transsexuals and transvestites. Consequently, if you use the term "transnazi" many will picture a cross-dressing version of Hermann Göring.

Free Hal said...

"We’re circling the drain now as far as immigration is concerned. Options more pleasant than “ethnic cleansing” are rapidly being foreclosed, if indeed they still remain open."

Excellently put, Baron.

The important thing is to make sure it is as un-violent as possible. First, to prevent descent into genocide. Second, out of self-interest, to avoid the double-edged anomie associated with violent ethnic cleansing. This can be the contribution from GoV readers and others, who see the problem early.

This probably means working out how to keep the sharp end of the process voluntary, at least in part.

Fjordman said...

I should add that I don't think US oligarchs are much better than Western European ones. There is a lot of senseless anti-Americanism in Europe, but the truth is that the USA today is racist. Racist against whites, that is. Obama personifies the anti-white ideology of the transnational oligarchs which is now the ruling ideology of the Western world. As long as this continues to be the case, Western elites will be dedicated to the dispossession of whites worldwide.

If you think that is an exaggeration, consider the fact that the Labour Party in Britain has finally publicly admitted that they are deliberately flooding their country with immigrants with the specific intention of permanently altering its demographic composition. In all other places this would be considered ethnic cleansing of the native population, but in this case it's fine and dandy since the natives are whites who have been successfully demonized, deconstructed and marginalized beforehand. And no, it's not because of the British colonial legacy. The authorities are doing this to the natives in Finland, Norway and Sweden, too, even though we have no colonial histories. It's because we are white and therefore have no right to exist.

Jens Orback, former Cabinet Minister for the Swedish Social Democrats, said during a radio debate that “We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.” Bill Clinton has repeatedly bragged about the fact that whites will be turned into a minority in the USA. One of the leading Multicultural theorists in Scandinavia, Professor Thomas Hylland Eriksen of the University of Oslo, has stated in public that the (white) majority population must be deconstructed so thoroughly that it can never be called the majority again.

This is not a hidden conspiracy, nor is it a conspiracy theory that European authorities through the EU are purposefully flooding European countries with mass immigration in order to break them down. The latter policy is supported by American authorities, too. Perhaps you could claim that the European Union has adopted some of the bureaucratic structures of the Soviet Union, but the concept of mass immigration of alien peoples was adopted from the United States, not from the former Communist countries who never did this.

I don't like the rehabilitation of Stalin, a monster who was responsible for the deaths of more whites during the twentieth century than anybody else apart from Adolf Hitler. However, the reason why Western oligarchs are so hostile to Russian leaders is not because these are Socialists, since most Western leaders themselves are international Socialists. Nor is it because Russia isn't a democracy since neither is the EU, which is nevertheless supported by all Western leaders, including American "conservatives." Nor is it because they object to Russia's "imperialism" since Western leaders accept and actively aid Arabic-Islamic imperialism, even in their own countries. No, they hate Russia because the country is still dominated by white Christians who follow their ethnic interests instead of accepting their own ethnic destruction, as whites in Western nations are being forced to do by transnational Socialists and oligarchs.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Say what you like about what any group has done anywhere, if you do not treat the INDIVIDUALS of ALL groups completely equally under the law YOU ARE THE PROBLEM as much as they are.
Watch, em, remind em, prosecute if they break the law, but you do not brand ANY individual with dirt from another's hands and call yourself true to Western Values.
Once a door is opened for ANYONE to criminalize what is in a persons heart and mind it can be foreced wider by evil people.

TC said...

As ethnic cleansing is defined as one of the effects of racism, and the currently accepted definition of racisim limits the ownership of the term to whites, indicating that while whites can be racist, other groups are incapable of racism due to power difference, any demographic displacement of whites cannot be ethnic cleansing.

Simple as that!

Fjordman said...

TC: Well, in my view the ruling Labour government of Blair and Brown have publicly admitted to participating in the ethnic cleansing of the native population of their country and should be brought to justice for this.

Many people write about "Western cultural suicide," yet this is only partly true. It is sadly the case that many of us are weak, care only about our holidays and our electronic toys and like good little zombies continue to mindlessly vote for political parties that insult us at every given opportunity. This is part of our problem, yes. Nobody denies that. The question is whether there is also something else, a deliberate policy imposed from above, and my answer would be that there is a lot of evidence indicating this.

Mass immigration is being forced down the throat of white Westerners even when we don't want it. In this case we are involuntary victims of an evil policy; perhaps victims who don't put up enough resistance, but victims nonetheless. Eurabia is very well documented, despite what the mainstream media might tell us. Former US President Bill Clinton has stated repeatedly that he looks forward to the day when whites are a minority in the USA. President Obama never made any secret of his dislike for whites, either before he was elected or afterward.

I think we need to debate openly whether what we are currently dealing with is not just a matter of stupidity or "cultural suicide" but a deliberate, long-term plan to destroy the white West. Here is a good quote by Lawrence Auster:

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/015463.html

"I think it's reasonable to say that Obama's paramount objective in the health care bill and his other initiatives is to bring down white America, by punitively taxing middle class whites in the health care bill and transferring their money to nonwhites and illegal aliens; by siding with Islam against the United States ('I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear'); by sending U.S. soldiers to die for the sake of Afghans who are not our friends (see Diana West on this); by appointing the blatantly anti-white Sonia Sotomayor to the U.S. Supreme Court and numerous anti-whites to posts in his administration; by supporting vastly expanded nonwhite immigration and amnesty (though he may not move forward with that this year); and by declaring, in his March 2008 race speech, that whites deserve to be hated by blacks with Jeremiah Wright type hatred until they make blacks equal to themselves in all outcomes and goods. He said this very clearly in that speech, as I've explained, but your typical conservatives were so awed by his criticisms of blacks and his nuance and his 'thoughtfulness' that they didn't notice it."

Personally, I could add that it's much the same with the EU. The creation of Eurabia is continuing at such speed and on so many fronts simultaneously that even people who have made it their business to study this, like myself, cannot keep up with it all. What is being done happens on such a grand scale that it is difficult for the ordinary person, certainly if he relies on the mainstream media, to fully grasp what's going on. If he is at the same time culturally broken down and constantly harassed with "anti-racism and anti-discrimination" then the average citizen can to a large extent be neutralized as potential opposition to the elites and their schemes, which was no doubt the intention to begin with.

I suspect that future historians will refer to the early twenty-first century as a low point in the history of the white race, when hostile outsiders such as Muslims can abuse us in our own countries with impunity. We can probably get a little bit lower still, unfortunately, but we are approaching a low point. And a turning point, too?

urbanadder22 said...

In case of the Kahnawake Mohawks, if they expel all members of their community who are not 100% Mohawk, they will have to find 100% Mohawks from outside their community to avoid eventual inbreeding.

European white people will have to revert to racial laws such as employed in the civilized South Africa--ante-Mandela and the rule of the barbarians--to maintain non-Moslem-whiteness.

Although the racially mixed bag of Moslem "immigrants" cannot provide females for Native whites (Islamic rules and "honor" killings) no such prohibition exist for preserving the native European purity by keeping European females from becoming one of the "wives" of Moslem males nor from being raped by gangs of Moslems and, despite all efforts of post-rape cleansing, from being impregnated.

As the Moslem immigrants cannot be assimilated, the white Europeans will be forced to emigrate from their lands--but where to?

The United States immediately will come to mind. Then, those of us who still preserve a picture of a white Europe with the odd African or camera-toting Japanese, realize with a sinking feeling, that the United States also no longer fits its 20th-Century image. It is no longer a white-dominated society. The whites that are the elite are, as pointed out by Fjordman, not interested in preserving European whiteness for the underclasses (including what goes by the name of "middle class," which provides taxable skilled "managers" and "professionals").

So, where will be the last refuge for the European white races? The aboriginal white North no longer is that. Neither are the subtropics nor the lands south of the Equator suitable for European whites (climate and present populations).

Unless something gives, the European white races will have to escape to the Arctic and Antarctic or evacuate Earth entirely and find another planet in the Universe. Failing that, or not wishing to do that, there will be a "crash," as Fjordman called it, or an explosion, a violent large-scale parallel of what the Kahnawake Mohawks are trying to accomplish--peaceably-- in their precious reserve.

EscapeVelocity said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
apsco17 said...
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4Symbols said...

"English might begin by cleansing Whitehall of all those Scottish interlopers."

Ouch!

So are you an Anglophile and for dissolving the Union, Baron.


In hoc signo vinces

Baron Bodissey said...

4symbols --

Oh, I'm definitely an Anglophile. I lived in bloody Yorkshire for four years, di'n I?

I suppose that makes me a Tyke-o-phile.

Can't take a joke, eh?

As for dissolving the Union: that's up to the sovereign peoples of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Maybe Cornwall, too, for all I know. But I'm too far away, so I don't have any opinions about such matters.

I do have opinions about affairs closer to home. For example, I favor kicking all Yankees and Tarheels out of the Sovereign Commonwealth of Virginia.

TC said...

Fjordman: Blair and Brown aren’t the only ones to have publicly admitted their treasonous goals. As early as 1994s, the leftist German minister of the exterior, Joschka Fischer, wrote "Deutschland muß von außen eingehegt, und innen durch Zustrom heterogenisiert, quasi "verdünnt" werden.", which can be roughly translated as „Germany has to be restricted from the outside and be heterogenized, i.e. thinned out through immigration on the inside“.

He teaches American kids at Harvard now.

I agree with you, Fjordman, that we need to debate the identity and purpose of the puppet masters. But after that identification, significant action will have to be taken against them. While that debate is going on, we must stop caring about our public image. We will be called racists and supremacists anyway and I say it’s time to justify that reputation. Let’s take the good Mohawk chief in example and finally start taking care of our own again.

Fjordman said...

urbanadder22: What is going on is very unfortunate but it can be fixed, although in less pleasant ways than most of us would prefer.

As I wrote in my essay Why Did Europeans Create the Modern World? and as Michael H. Hart states in his book Understanding Human History, in a conflict between different peoples the ones with the highest IQ will normally win, unless they are numerically overwhelmed by other high-IQ peoples as the Germans and the Japanese were during the Second World War.

Some would say that the mass immigration of many low-IQ peoples to white majority Western nations at the turn of the twenty-first century constitutes a major counter-example to this rule, but this development constitutes such an anomaly in world history that it must be treated as a special case. Western nations have not been military defeated. These immigrants/colonists would not have been able to settle in these countries if they couldn’t exploit the deranged altruism and political-ideological flaws of the modern West, and they have always received substantial aid from high-IQ groups within the West itself, among them white Marxists. The low-IQ immigrants are pawns for high-IQ Western Multicultural oligarchs to dismantle our countries, control the wages of the white majority and keep us in line through hate speech laws.

That sounds depressing, and it is, but as soon as we recognize this situation we can fight it. We need to realize that our so-called political leaders no longer represent us or our long-term interests. The democratic system is broken. In the USA in 2008 you could vote for a radical anti-white Marxist who wanted mass immigration by aliens and a "conservative" who also wanted mass immigration of aliens. It's a fraud.

There really is only one major party in the West today and that's the Transnational Anti-White Party for Multiculturalism and Mass Immigration. You retain, for the time being, the privilege of voting for who should be its figurehead at any given moment, but you do not get to have a say about which policy the Party should follow. That is reserved for the oligarchs. The peasants -that means you - can be distracted by tits, football and reality TV. Those who still protest can be labeled "Nazis" and dragged in front of a court of law.

All of the Leftist parties are fully in favor of dismantling the West in its traditional form. That requires no explanation. The problem is that the establishment so-called right-wing parties, too, support mass immigration and Multiculturalism. Whatever genuine opposition there is can be found on the political Right, but it is fragmented, and the ones who pose a serious challenge to the oligarchs and the status quo they represent will be ruthlessly demonized; assassinated like Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands, put on trial like Geert Wilders, banned by law as the Vlaams Blok when it was the largest party in Belgium or assaulted in their private homes by state-sponsored thugs, as is the case with the Sweden Democrats. The democratic system has for all practical purposes been abolished on much of the European continent through the EUSSR; real power has been transferred into the hands of an entrenched caste of self-recruiting bureaucrats and transnational Socialists, always on the lookout for more serfs to use as guinea pigs for their grandiose social engineering schemes.

The status quo won't last, though, because it is based on a series of Great Lies. There will be a massive financial crash throughout the Western world within the coming generation. The bad news is that many Westerners have become addicted to government handouts just like a drug addict is addicted to heroin and will probably scream for even more Socialism when this happens. Some undoubtedly will, but if we play our cards right we might have a chance to get rid of Multiculturalism. The future belongs to those who are prepared for it.

Takuan Seiyo said...

There are two related issues that I’ve given some thought to: Blacks and Jews. The former generate a highly disproportionate share of violent crime and social outlays and have proven, as a group, inassimilable in White-origin society. Even when pushed by all manner of White Eloi self-punishing trickery to the top of the pyramid, Blacks appear not to use that as an opportunity to express gratitude by serving the interests of the wider society, but use their privileged positions either for corrupt personal benefit, or to accrue advantages for their tribe. The L. Auster quote that Fjordman aducced is just one small instance in a vast tableau of corruption and inappropriate conduct by Black mayors, governors, Congressmen, Senators etc. And it is eminently obvious that everything the Obama government does has an underlying purpose of transferring wealth and power from Whites to Blacks, and from the 1st World to the 3rd World.

The question is what can be done about it. The reason Aryan Supremacists and related nutjobs are so detrimental to the cause of redress is that they are unable and unwilling to discern fine points of history, of justice, and of the science of statistics. America has brought the punishment of Black dysfunction on itself through slavery (different colonialism-related causes in Western Europe too much to go into here). White Americans have no right (on any plane of rights) to speak as though they were the Americans and the Blacks are not, when the latter have been here for over 300 years and brought in involuntarily too.

But even if it weren’t so, even if only 20% of Blacks were assimilable and genuinely contributive, it’s fundamentally wrong and ultimately self-destructive to apply punitive measures on the 100% for the shortcomings of the 80%. I believe therefore that America could function very well if it were genuinely colorblind and based on meritocracy and freedom. The freedom should include people’s ability to associate in the private sphere with their own kind, as long as the public sphere remains colorblind. However, with diversity being such an obvious drag and detriment, the majority ought to mobilize in order to prevent further importation of any people but such as are compatible with the majority.

The people preventing all this are the Left in all of the Left’s economic and cultural manifestations, including 90% of the GOP that’s completely Eloi. The enemy to me therefore is not the Black, but the Left. A separate post about Jews will follow.

EscapeVelocity said...

I concur with TS, there.

EscapeVelocity said...

In the US immigration should be limited. And colorblind policies persued. Welfare state should be limited.

Then the various cultures will produce their various results for the individuals that partake of them in the free market.

Failure will not be subsidized, and criminal activity will be punished severely.

Furthermore, what needs to accompany this is a renewed pride in Euro Christian heritage, white Euro Christian males. Not anti anybody else but celebration and confidence in these groups and their heritage and traditions without apology. Others are entitled to there heritage and culture as well.

Europe has indigenous claims to land, and so they have a stronger footing....like the Mohawk.

EscapeVelocity said...

Here is a news broadcast...

http://podblanc.com/get-out-too-many-whites-mohawk-council-serves-evictions

EscapeVelocity said...

Here is an opinion article with some more details...

Lysiane Gagnon

The Mohawk affair is an affront to all

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/the-mohawk-affair-is-an-affront-to-all/article1466942/


Looks like the Mohawks run gambling concerns which are hugely profitable and low tax cigeretter sales which are also profitable.

Also looks like it is white males who are sexually involved with native women that are being targeted and not white females shacking up with native men.

Also I read elsewhere, chiefs claiming that elderly non natives with ties to the community would be allowed to stay, as they are not able to procreate.

Fascinating.

Takuan Seiyo said...

The same case for ethnic cleansing in the interest of group survival is being made by the White Power people with respect to the Jews. And it’s by no means an inherently insane position that ought to be dismissed without considering its genesis. If it is crazy, it’s because the White Cuckoos (“WCs”) falsify history, libel and lie in all that relates to the Jews, and gloss over statistics in order to arrive at their predetermined conclusion. And the conclusion is evil, even if some of the argumentation isn’t.

Here are a few points worth considering (again, I’ll limit this largely to the U.S., because of space/time considerations):

1. Just as the Blacks are vastly over-represented in areas of negative import relative to Majority White society, so are the Jews. If you look at the BHO inner circle, if you add to it the 78% of Jewish vote, if you add to it the activity of the Jewish contingent in Congress, you realize that Obama is in many ways a Jewish gift to America. I haven’t heard of Jewish leaders who are losing sleep over this, but they should.

2. In many ways, the corrosive intellectual movements and important civic initiatives tunneling under the West are also a Jewish gift. Communism and socialism, post-modernism and multiculturalism, feminism and politically aggressive homosexualism, open immigration and resettlement of barbarian refugees, lawfare on behalf of the corrosive forces – all have had a disproportionate Jewish contribution, from top to bottom.

This is no small matter. Even to a person like me – a half-Jew and son of Holocaust survivors (there was a Slav Holocaust too) – these “contributions” no longer allow for philosemitism. For otherwise, philosemitism would be amply warranted. There are the incredible Jewish contributions to Western culture, science, medicine etc. in general, and there are the incredible Jewish contributions in the same spheres and in the history of every Western nation where they have been living [less so in Eastern Europe, but it’s complicated and no space for it here]. There is the fact that most Jews one encounters are cultured, civilized, generally kind and law-abiding people of high civic virtue. And don’t get me started on where Christianity came from.

And yet.

The WCs in essence say that the Jews are an alien race (or gene pool etc.) that thrives by weakening its White host. They propose a Final Solution of one kind or another. A WC I was debating the other day on another (not overtly Nazi) blog concluded his argument with me in these words:

“You are a lying Jew who cares naught for Whites but to the degree they serve Jewish interests. And if it comes to it at the last, and it will, you will align yourself explicitly with the anti-White genocidalists. Of course you will! Increasingly, as the backs of White men are forced against the wall, with nothing left to lose, they will embrace either explicit National Socialism or something close to it. When the Swastika (or whatever incidental symbol is used in its stead) goes up the flagpole that means we are truly done dicking around, that means game over, for you.”

And what do YOU say? The majority of American Jews exert a political-cultural influence that, in my judgment, has become catastrophic. What would you do about it and why?

Agent Chameleon said...

Takuan Seiyo -

With all due respect, I disagree with your recommendation for "colorblindness". I do not deny that blacks have a right to live on the North American continent. But I do not think your colorblind meritocracy is going to work. Ethnic diversity within a nation is going to lead to conflict, especially when one ethnic group (white Americans) dominates another (black Americans) demographically. Blacks will always resent this. They won't like whites being able to make the rules through voting and setting the cultural standards for America. Black ethnonationalism is strong, and I think we need to accept the fact that blacks and whites need to live in separate countries. Else we're going to have never ending conversations on race and race riots. That's just the way diversity works.

We could try forced assimilation, but I don't think you'd agree with that method either. Yet with a disgruntled, powerless minority venting their frustrations, the majority is going to feel increasingly hostile towards the minority, and thus conflict will escalate.

Political independence for blacks is needed. Blacks in Africa did not take kindly to being ruled by Europeans, and black Americans aren't and won't be any different.

Agent Chameleon said...

"
And what do YOU say? The majority of American Jews exert a political-cultural influence that, in my judgment, has become catastrophic. What would you do about it and why?"

I've already stated my position on this numerous times, but I guess I'll say it again. Jews cannot be solely responsible for our race's problems, because they are numerically inferior and not a conquering military elite. In essence, if they are as detrimental as the AS wing of white nationalism claims, then who's truly at fault? The Jews, or us whites who allowed this "ZOG" to rule over us?

The truth is that we whites have brought our own problems on ourselves; we had the power to not let this happen, we could have kept our gates shut. Instead we opened them wide open. We sacrificed our very identities and heritage in order to "feel good" and live a life of decadence and luxury. We have sacrificed our families, murdered our unborn children, and murder our future generations by not having children. We have cast aside the traditions that made our peoples successful. We have made wealth a god to worship. We have embraced every vile and despicable practice in the name of "freedom".

We did this to ourselves, and we will never be able to pull ourselves out of this mess until we sit down and try to understand what led to our suicide, and how to teach the remnants to not follow the mistakes of their forebears.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Agent Chameleon

I have not precluded your position. It’s just impossible to go into even the basic permutations in less than 2000 words. All I am saying is that Blacks have the same rights in and to America as Whites do.

The evil has come from equalizing the outcomes rather than leaving it at equal opportunity. And since the outcomes will always remain largely disparate and the resentment that generates largely unappeasable, it’s quite possible that there is no other workable solution but physical separation and separate sovereignty. But how to accomplish and maintain that amicably is another matter.

Agent Chameleon said...

"And since the outcomes will always remain largely disparate and the resentment that generates largely unappeasable, it’s quite possible that there is no other workable solution but physical separation and separate sovereignty. But how to accomplish and maintain that amicably is another matter."

I concur that it will be a challenge. There are several stages that white nationalists need to reach, the first being the purge of neo-Nazis, anti-Semites, and supremacists. The second will then be the building of a sane movement that will outreach to white Americans. The third stage will be an outreach to nationalists of other ethnicities. By setting an example for positive non-hate based nationalism, we can inspire others to look beyond the Nation of Islam and La Raza. When these alternative black/latino/Amerindian nationalist groups arise, we'll need to work with them, working out a compromise that will hopefully be beneficial to all.

This won't be an easy, but if we don't turn to compromise, we'll be left with nothing but the much feared race war, something I don't think whites will do very well in.

EscapeVelocity said...

The evil has come from equalizing the outcomes rather than leaving it at equal opportunity. --- TS

Yes.

African Americans can change their cultural habits and values and thus compete in a way which does not represent large scale inequality.

This is how whites did it as well. Or any other group.

Man American Blacks have adopted middle class Euro American values and culture and are very successful. Col West for example.

Incidentally, African Americans used to strive to white American middle class culture and values, in the late 60s militant black movement consciously adopted lower class black culture and values as "authentically black." This was driven by a rejection of white Euro America.

There is little reason to believe that in an unforgiving (unsubsidized market)...ie African Americans no longer being able to pray on white guilt for subsidies and hand outs....that they wouldnt self integrate. As its already happened to some degree. The key is to drive Western Leftism out of power, in government, education, businesses, and institutions.

Ill get to the Jews later. Im not as hard on them as you TS. Though I readily admit that they have been huge supporters, leaders, and intellectual heavyweights on the Left.

EscapeVelocity said...

The criminal justice system needs to fixed as well, where criminals are not coddled, harsh penalties enforced. The Left did much damage to the criminal justice system....and thus weakened its ability to deter crime and protect citizens.

EscapeVelocity said...

Yes, Jews are only a minority. Its the Left that is the problem.

Jews are a high achieving group and thus have leadership positions and are intellectual heavyweights so they become figureheads of movements. There are intellectual heavyweight Neo Cons that are Jews...which counter the Left.

But Jews are without a doubt the most far Left group in the US. African Americans for example are socially conservative Christians in large part. Jews are social liberals by a large margin. Jewish Orthodox are social conservatives and vote for the Republicans.

Latinos also split there vote as they are devout Catholics many of them, thus social conservatives.

Jews are also virulent tribalists, but do not respect certain other groups rights to tribalism. This is New Leftist Identity Politics, Native Americans, Latinos, Blacks, Jews, Asians, Homos, Women all are playing tribalist identity politics, but other groups are forbidden...this is the cultural genocide that is taking place. Tolerance for some groups self interests, and intolerance to others.

Interstingly enough, Jews would do well, in a libertarian system, as they are high achievers, but they need to ally with other "minority" identity tribalists, in order to protect their culture from the "majority" groups....white Euro Christians.

This series of articles offers some good insights into American Jewry...from Commentary Magazine, and Jewish Neo Conservative Rag.

Why are Jews Liberals - A Symposium

The first 3 are worth reading, if short on time...Wolpe, Sarna, Medved.

Jewish fears and paranoia drives their anti Euro Christianism.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/why-are-jews-liberals-a-symposium-15223?page=all

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Escape Velocity

I am not sure if I can agree with your assessment as to Blacks. Yes, I am well aware of Col. West, am a great fan of Sowell and Williams and so on. But I have described the situation in statistical terms, in terms of averages, majority trends etc. The outliers do not negate that.

Those successful blacks whom you cite as having adopted middle class Euro American values once tended to be doctors or entrepreneurs. Now they are Ivy League lawyers and government mandarins taking America apart. You only have to look at BHO and his DOJ, or look at American cities such as Philadelphia where the entire top level of the administration is black.

But I agree that Western Leftism and the psychosis of white liberals have much to do with that.

EscapeVelocity said...

@TS

I can appreciate you pessimism. However this self integration model has worked very well before, and with a broad group of immigrant peoples and cultures.

I dont see why it cant in the future.

The key though is to destroy the Western Left's influence and power. Islam and Muslim immigration and the dynamics surrounding that may just do that.

EscapeVelocity said...

And there are many many more than just a few exceptional examples of blacks that have adopted middle class Euro values, even if many of them continue to vote for the Left.

EscapeVelocity said...

Identity Victim Group Studies Departments need to be defunded at Universities.

Barring that, I think that the way forward is clear. There is a well beaten path to follow.

Pressure Universities for Men’s Studies and Euro-Caucasion American Studies Departments, and then mimic the Womens, African American, Latino-Chicano, and Middle Eastern Studies Departments, turning them into radical tribalist political advocation bases to support a network of other organizations with intellectual firepower and material to promote the political agenda and advocacy for these groups.

There is nothing like having the Unis fund your political movement. It also gives you access to young minds to influence…who will then take what theyve learned into other institutions which they can then promote the agenda and advocate within those other organizations, like government bureacracies, corporations, businesses, media, etc.

I almost forget legal support and organizations to wage lawfare on other institutions as well.

In other words….if you cant beat em, join em.

We can reclaim our own history, stories, and myths in these departments. Fjordman does similar work already, wouldnt it be nice to get him tenured in a University, fully funded, with massive resources at his disposal to continue his great work, while mentoring others and creating a support system for the Pro White Euro Christian Male movements.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Escape Velocity
As someone who has known many Jews, worked in Jewish-overrepresented fields, not to speak of a blood connection, I have not experienced more to support your (or the Neocons’) point than 35%.
I do not think that Jews are tribal at all. Up to the 1930s yes, but not since then. To the contrary, much of their political-cultural activity is driven by an almost eschatological impulse so inimical to self-interest as to be suicidal.

Jews are an economically successful group consistently voting for the party that raises their taxes. They are the main ethnic segment supporting Blacks – and Blacks happen to be the most antisemitic segment of America’s population, not counting recent immigrants. Jews are enthusiastic supporters of the very Immigration laws that bring more and more people in who are sworn enemies of the Jews and of Israel. The top layer of the most determined Western enemies of Israel includes a disproportionate number of Jews. And so on.

You underestimate the ingrained Jewish trait, since early Biblical times, of “improving the world.” That trait has given Western Civilization much good (e.g. see Tim Cahill’s “The Gift of the Jews.”), and until quite recently. But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. And we have much too much of the good thing now, of course across the board and prominently among active main-denomination Christians too. It’s time to swing the other way and redress the balance.

EscapeVelocity said...

You too, TS, tenured position, and key developer of rebuilding Euro culture, without having to acquiesce to minorities or "the other."

I think that this is a good short term strategy, demanding to be included among the multicultural tribalists.

EscapeVelocity said...

That is interesting...TS.

However I think Israel as a Jewish state, is revealing, as to American Jewry's motivations.

They largely support Israeli Jews in many policies that they would explode if Euro Christian nations implemented them.

There tribalism is revealed....even many hard Left American Jews.

That isnt to say that their arent self hating Jews that are deeply critical of Israel, and the Israel itself doesnt have a self hating Left, supporting policies that would lead to Israel's destruction as a Jewish state, but you will also notice that the Jewish Nationalists are now in coalition with the Center Right as the government....because this has become clear. I have heard American Jewish Leftists defend the Jewish Nationalist party as government...while denouncing the Vlaams Belang and Geert Wilders.

We live in interesting times.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Agent Chameleon

"The truth is that we whites have brought our own problems on ourselves."

Absolutely true. Everything has to start from that, like the AA 12-steps for drunkards.

EscapeVelocity said...

Well, speak for yourselves. Ive never been the problem.

EscapeVelocity said...

The reason why I say that Islam may be the game changer that allows the Western Left to be broken is that for one...

Muslims are indelibly hostile to Jews, that is one group that breaks from the Left.

African Americans for the most part dont care for Islam either.

Homos, ditto.

And so on and so forth.

So it isolates the Hard Left who sees Islam as another (and even better group) to break the West with.

Islam also riles up anti Left sentiment especially in the lower class whites (but also broadly in white Euro communities). The lower class white Left voter abandons ship for the Nationalist parties, disempowering the Left further, and thus empowering the Right or Conservatives.

Islam is an opportunity as much as it is a challenge.

Watching Eagle said...

The deconstruction of the Socialist statemust be the goal:

The problem is that the masses of the white people have allowed bureaucracy and activist courts to acquire much policy making powers (presumably since life was easy and we felt on top of the world)

WE Must realize that marxism is an educated upper class phenomenon, and must break and shatter any belief that a Marxist society could ever exist.

The ethno-cultural marxists are so anti-white because Lenin and Co. said that "White Power" was what was inhibiting the organic development of the "workers' Paradise". When you add to the fact that Germans (WHO HAPPENED at that point to believe in White Supremacy at that point) nearly destroyed Communism in WW2, it is clear that the ethno-cultural marxists (PC MCs) will hold onto supporting the anti-westerners to the hilt, as long as they have power.

They will not notice until the Muslims begin enforcing "poetic Justice" on them that Muslims aren't going to bring forth the 'workers' paradise', and it will be too late for us then.

What is needed is a strategy to rid society of PC MC and bureaucracy, and get the people to actually change things.

rebelliousvanilla said...

“It’s a horrible burden to grow up knowing you have to choose possibly between love with a fellow human being or my community, where my family, my culture and my home is.”
Well, when you choose to marry outside your community and culture, you basically renounce it because you're not willing to preserve it.

Afonso, I agree about nations. There's no such thing as humanity as a whole or human 'race'. I also don't see why a community should tolerate intermarriage if it gets to the extent where it threatens that community's survival as a distinct group. Or at all, if they're more radical.

Free Hal, yes, sadly ethinc cleansing is the only way Europeans can still survive as a group.

Guy DeWhiteny, than we are doomed and we won't solve this and Western values will disappear anyway, along with Western people. By the way, Western values, in the universal sense that you talk about is just some new adition to our culture - in the 19th century, minorities didn't even have civil rights and political rights.

urbanadder22, inbreeding is overhyped. Sadly, nobody talks about outbreeding depression, which is relatively strong in humans. But yes, I don't know how large the Kahnawake Mohwaks are as a group. And Muslim females can be married to non-Muslim men in our countries. Remember, we don't have Sharia... Yet anyway. Also, we don't need a new land. We just need to expel the others by force. I really don't get where this stupid pussification comes from - this is our land, not yours, so you will leave. If you don't, we will make you in one way or another.

Takuan Seiyo, I find what blacks do really logical. What's your problem with seeking benefits for your own group? Also, last time I recall, the USA did the Liberia deal yet not many blacks were that happy to move there and be free in their own land. Also, a nation is defined by it's ethnicity, it's impossible to do it otherwise. Still, within a meritocracy that is sane about reproduction, white people would just outbreed the blacks - which is what happened until the 1960s. You see, once you will shut down the anti-racism garbage, whites will stick for each other as a group and compete with the blacks in the same way that blacks do. In my country, there is a large Hungarian minority and they're white like us and we do this let's compete against the other thing, expecting people to not do it when they're different racially is insane, unless you destroy one of the groups 'groupishness'.

EV, the self intergration model didn't work. You have to realize that Italians, for example, aren't that distinct genetically from other white people. They're of the same race. Then, you had a sky high native white birth rate in the US and you could simply absorb other people of the same racial group fairly easily without problems. Just look into the US birth rates of the 19th century and early 20th.

4Symbols said...

Dancing around the Totem Pole.



In hoc signo vinces

EscapeVelocity said...

EV, the self intergration model didn't work. -- rv

Yes, it did, before the massive welfare state. It worked....all kinds of groups integrated, and not just European ethnicities.

2 things happened, The Great Society and the Neo Marxist Politically Correct Militant Identity Group Politics...or more concisely...The New Left.

TC said...

Ahh Takuan, I should have restricted myself to reading your older essays and comments. Whaat you deliver here does really not measure up to your standards.

I think you are OUT of this discussion ever since you dubbed the recurrence of the jewish question "the world's oldest psychosis", over at the "West's Darkest Hour".


I can not recall and will not search for the exact quote concerning your opinion on those who question the jewish role in world history and murderous ideologies. I just remember that you dubbed them psychopaths or some such niceties.

Communism of all stripes used to brand their enemies as "insane", right? Nice ideological lineage you're in there.

Agent Chameleon said...

"
Yes, it did, before the massive welfare state. It worked....all kinds of groups integrated, and not just European ethnicities."

Please tell us of non-white immigrants who integrated into the American white identity.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@TC

“This” discussion has been for too long your discussion and the discussion of your kind. There was hope until Jared Taylor made the tent large enough for the firm of Duke & Stormfront. But since he has, other people of clearer vision must start their own discussion. This forum has been predominantly for such people. Both the host authors and the pre-eminent poster here, Fjordman, are among such people. You will find no succor here if you are looking to join the party where the tinfoil hats bear “The Jooz done it” caption.

Speaking for myself, I have some interest in discussing the Jewish negatives with people who care enough about the truth to have learned and thought also about the positives and the counter-negatives. I can direct you to a long list of unbiased scholarly books and articles published on this matter in Polish in the last 10 years. Alas I know not of a single published page in English, and that includes the output of Kevin MacDonald on one hand, and the Jewish apologetics of “Commentary” on the other. The poison that has seeped into you is very old, and has been decried by men greater then I. Try Emile Zola and William Buckley.

Afonso Henriques said...

@ Takuan Seyo,

The Jewish solution is simple: Israel.

And if they want to be in the West, they better be under 1% of the population otherwise they will exert an enormous influence in its upper classes. Also, it doesn't matter that there are not many Jews in the top of Norwegian, Italian, English or Ukrainian society. The Jews will exert their influence from New York or Moscow or Paris or whatever great centre of power they can lay their influence on and indirect control Norway, Italy, England and Ukraine.

So, unless you start to connect all Jews to Israel and treat them as the true ethnic minority they are, they will pass as white, as Englishmen, as European-Americans, as Russians, as Italians, as whatever dominant ethnicity there is.

Imagine the Jews were white!

That's their problem. Though they are different, they're not that different and thus they blend in, that's how they infiltrate society.

But the Jews are just the head of the arrow. They are not an arrow per se and they definetly are not the arch from which that arrow is launched. These are the ethnic Europeans. Things will and can only change when ethnic Europeans change.

How can six million Jews exhert such a strong control over more than 200 million strong white America?
The only answer is because Jews are damned good and because European-Americans ALOW Jews to exhert that control.

Real steps to diminish Jewish influence:

1) Normalise the II World War and stop demonising Hitler and Der Dreite Reich more than they diserve.
2) Stop being soft on Communism and denounce it as it is.

(This two remind me of Buchannan in his book about the Unnecessary War)

3) Show the Jewish connections to Communism and Marxism and present it as a true anti-European ideology and as a probable kind of Jewish Nationalism in Gentile's lands, instead Sionism which is Jewish Nationalism in Jewish lands.

4) Erradicate the divinity of Jews: Cease to see the Jews as the favourite people of God or the people who killed Jesus Christ.

5) Unmask Jews as an ethnic minority. Albeit one that is somewhat "exemplar" just like North East Asians.
(Examplar... Well, they usually behave in a civilised manner. I recognise that the Chinese can behaved Civilised, but I don't want them to change my culture or people nor do I want them to bring my businesses to ruin. With the Jews it is somewhat similar)

------------------------------

Nothing of this will probabily happen. And I don't think we should worry about the Jews if we're not in the Jewnited States. I say this because when times get tough, Jews tend to be the first ones to leave, or the ones forced to leave.

When European upper classes world wide cease to follow Jewish fashions (Crazy Capitalism where only money is a vallue, American Imperial Dreams, as well as all kinds of leftism) or when European middle classes world wide revolt against the current situation after a massive economic depression and Third Worlders Great Violence (they have to eat, you know that people starving kill in order to eat, don't you?) the Jews will have a hard time in America and their "supermacist status" in European Civilisation will crumble.

Takuan Seyo, that's what I say. Hope you all don't consider me Anti-Semitic for this.

Agent Chameleon said...

"There was hope until Jared Taylor made the tent large enough for the firm of Duke & Stormfront."

I am so mad at him over this. And recently he appeared on Stormfront radio. Why? Why is he a believer in big tent white nationalism? What what fruit does he think will bear in this alliance with such an evil and insignificant faction?

Agent Chameleon said...

Alfonso, you do realize that religious Jews and Zionists suffered at the hands of Soviets, right?

ba said...

"they want to get rid of the half-breeds along with the outlanders. "

I support stopping immigration for a while, since it is being used specifically as a tool to destroy our native majority white population through numbers of people who do not like our native population. And I definitely support stopping immigration of muslims since their whole doctrine is about subjugating the rest of us. But I draw the line at ethnic cleansing. It is immoral and wrong. This country has never been pure white and never should be.

I'd rather deport based on lack of support for our constitution than on ethnicity. Stop immigration for a while yes. Deport immigrants who are anti-American yes. Get rid of all non-whites and "half breeds" no way.

Agent Chameleon said...

"But I draw the line at ethnic cleansing. It is immoral and wrong. This country has never been pure white and never should be."

Non-whites have been present in America, however, until the 1960's, American was used exclusively for white Americans. So you are half-correct and half-wrong.

I agree with you on ethnic cleansing being immoral, hence my support for working with non-whites to split the country up in a fashion that is mutually beneficial.

And perhaps for all you civic nationalists who based their identities on values, we can create a civic nationalist partition, perhaps a US remnant.

EscapeVelocity said...

Please tell us of non-white immigrants who integrated into the American white identity.


Jews, Latinos, African Americans, Africans, and Asians.

Not necessarily the white idenitity, but American cultural norms and values....which were dictated by white European Christians.

All of these groups for example Americanized (WASP) their names and naming conventions. As just one example.

The vast majority of American Negros were named John and Alice....not Shanequa and Kwame.

ba said...

"Non-whites have been present in America, however, until the 1960's, American was used exclusively for white Americans. So you are half-correct and half-wrong. "

I agree that the culture of this country is based on our white American majority and also agree that it should remain that way, since it is that culture that made our form of government possible. I just don't agree with what is said in this post that seems to be more about ethnicity than belief systems. There are plenty of patriotic Americans who are non-white.

I'd rather not divide the country into pieces, but if that is the only option then yeah, put me in the constitutional values part of it. I wouldn't fit in too well with the white nationalists.

Fjordman said...

Takuan Seiyo: I don't want to decide what Americans should do as the solutions found in North America necessarily have to be different from those in Europe. We are the natives here. You are not, so our starting points are very different.

I must say that Jared Taylor shows poor judgment by including such groups, yes. They bring nothing good to the table, just a lot of ideological poison. People who think that "the Jews" staged 9/11 need to be kept away not just because of their anti-Semitism but because they are a bunch of nutjobs. It's for the same reason that I wouldn't include people who say that they have been kidnapped by aliens and examined with an anal probe on board their spaceship. I don't merely object to their anti-Alienism; I object to the fact that they are a bunch of nutjobs

Afonso: Then people must support Israel's survival. Many of those who hate Jews in Western countries hate them when they are in Israel, too, which means that they object to the very existence of Jews.

EscapeVelocity said...

Amen Fjordman.

Yes I agree with ba, the US is different from Europe. Being natives in Europe is a stronger position for ethnic nationalism as the basis of the nation.

What we really need is a place to send Western Leftists. Ideological cleansing. The Decent Left can stay.

EscapeVelocity said...

Muslims could be ideologically cleansed.

If you are a Muslim Supremacist or support Shariah law, then you gots to go. Its not your skin color but your ideology that makes you unwelcome.

Afonso Henriques said...

Agent Chamaleon, it is AFonso, not Alfonso...

Well, first I got to say that I agree with your assessment to that scary screaming: America shall never be all white! I think at this time, being scare of an all white America is as serious as being afraid from the bogey man under out beds.

""But I draw the line at ethnic cleansing. It is immoral and wrong. This country has never been pure white and never should be."

Non-whites have been present in America, however, until the 1960's, American was used exclusively for white Americans. So you are half-correct and half-wrong."

I am wholehartedly in agreement with you. I will only add that ethnic cleansing *is in fact* some times the ethical thing. This is, when you have to opt between your people's survival and it's demisal.
And usually, that is when ethnical cleansing comes.
No one starts to ethnic cleanse without reason, it is an extreme action.

And there are more humane ways to ethnically clean a place. For instance, the American attempt to ethnically clean itself from Africans by sending free African Americans, who were themselves free willingly to go, to Liberia or the Chinese one child policy combined with fiscal punishments to those who do not abide the policy (eventually targeted to ethnic minorities) are arguably much more moral ways to do an ethnic cleansing than outright killing and massacring an entire population, like the Germans did to the Jews.
Meanwhile, expulsion and population transfers are more humane too. Especially when the peoples in question aprove of it.

"Alfonso, you do realize that religious Jews and Zionists suffered at the hands of Soviets, right?"

Yes, I do. And you are also half wrong and half right. Zionists suffered. Like all Nationalists.
But, you know... the Slavs suffered too. And I think it is about time to recognise that "Jewishness" had a big role in 1)Marxism/Communism 2)Russia's problems from 1917 to Stalin.

P.S. - I am one of those who believe that one thing is Russia and Russians and the other is the Sovietic Union and the Soviets. Russia *actually* ceased to exist for awhile, don't know if you noticed it...

Agent Chameleon said...

" Please tell us of non-white immigrants who integrated into the American white identity.


Jews, Latinos, African Americans, Africans, and Asians.

Not necessarily the white idenitity, but American cultural norms and values....which were dictated by white European Christians.

All of these groups for example Americanized (WASP) their names and naming conventions. As just one example.

The vast majority of American Negros were named John and Alice....not Shanequa and Kwame."

Jews are European in appearance and have lived in Europe for almost 2000 years.

Latinos in America prior to the 1950's who have assimilated are largely of white Spanish stock.

Asians identity as an ethnic group as well. They show solidarity with each other when they are in large enough numbers. So integration on the scale of European immigrants has not happened here.

Blacks having Anglo names and being Christian is not proof that they have integrated. Anglo names and Christianity were imposed on them by their slave masters, so it should be no surprise that some Western customs would stick with them. But they still view themselves as a distinct group that needs to be preserved. Even though the system was biased against them, blacks for the most part were equal players in the Jim Crow society when it came to maintain ethnic separatism.

Agent Chameleon said...

" Agent Chamaleon, it is AFonso, not Alfonso..."

My apologies, Afonso.

"
Yes, I do. And you are also half wrong and half right. Zionists suffered. Like all Nationalists.
But, you know... the Slavs suffered too. And I think it is about time to recognise that "Jewishness" had a big role in 1)Marxism/Communism 2)Russia's problems from 1917 to Stalin.

P.S. - I am one of those who believe that one thing is Russia and Russians and the other is the Sovietic Union and the Soviets. Russia *actually* ceased to exist for awhile, don't know if you noticed it..."

I agree that Slavs suffered too. Slavs also suffered under the Nazis and I'm sick of history largely ignoring that.

The thing with the Soviets from 1917 to the start of WWII was they hated all forms of nationalism - be it Jewish, Russian, etc. The Bolsheviks regularly denounced Jewish Zionists as racists, and Stalin experimented with making Jewish nationalists live near China, and then persecuted them over there.

That's what we need to keep in mind when fighting the Left: they want a one-world human society. And the Bolsheviks viewed Jewish nationalists as a threat to their utopia.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Alfonso Henriques

Don't worry whether I consider you antisemitic. I have no problem with people who are antisemitic in the sense of saying "I don't like Jews, I wish they didn't live in my country." I have a problem with people who arrive at this sentiment through psychosis such as seeking a scapegoat for their own failures, or through a sophist contravention of historical truth and current reality.

I'll start with your statement, "Imagine the Jews were white!" That is like saying "Imagine the Brazilians were white!" There are white ones and brown ones and mixtures thereof. If you want to say that the Jewish gene pool and geographic origin is distinct and different from that of the Visigoths or the Celts, that's one thing. But some 2300 years have passed since such a statement could be absolutely true. Is Mark Steyn white enough for you?
Scarlett Johanssen? Harrison Ford? Leelee Sobieski, who bears the surname and 1/2 blood of Poland's greatest royal family? Do you know that 15%-20% of the white non-Jewish population of the Iberian peninsula are descendants of Jewish conversos?

Second, who are you to say "If they want to be in the West" or to tell Jews "Go to Israel"? You, my friend, are alive because of Jewish contributions to medicine and science. You speak Portuguese rather than German because of the Jewish scientists that Hitler was stupid enough to kick out of Europe. If you go to a church, you pray to a Jew and you'd never even know He existed were it not for the efforts of two other Jews, Peter and Paul. If you get as much life force from classical music as I do, 50% of the performers you listen to are Jewish. If you like cinema as much as I do, you pay homage to studios that were founded by Jews and films that have been written, directed, scored and often acted in -- by Jews.

If you were an American, I'd add the other point that I also made about Blacks: they have been here since before you. Jews have made such contributions to the United States that it's possible to say that without them the nation may not have existed, or at least would have been greatly diminished. I'll refer only to the first item here, for time limitations: the Jew Hayim Solomon destroyed himself financially to support George Washington's Continental Army, and performed invaluable services later to find financing for the penniless government of the new country.

So if you want to contain Jewish influnces that you consider negative, I believe that you should think along different tracks.

Agent Chameleon said...

"
Yes I agree with ba, the US is different from Europe. Being natives in Europe is a stronger position for ethnic nationalism as the basis of the nation."

Why? Why does being native to a land have to be a pre-requisite for ethno-nationalism? Jews were never native to Israel; their origins probably lie further east, and their holy book records their slaughter of the Canaanite natives, and yet we do not deny their right to a homeland along the Mediterranean.

Why are we American whites thus illegitimate because our origins is not on this continent? why then must we open our borders to others?

"I'd rather not divide the country into pieces, but if that is the only option then yeah, put me in the constitutional values part of it. I wouldn't fit in too well with the white nationalists."

Glad to see some civic nationalists willing to compromise. :)

EscapeVelocity said...

Blacks having Anglo names and being Christian is not proof that they have integrated. --- Agent Chameleon

Well, it certainly isnt proof that they didnt integrate.

Many Italians, Poles, and Germans Americanized their names and adopted English as their language, consciously discarding them, in order to integrate more easily into their new countries. Jews did as well, discarding foreign alien sounding names.

But when Blacks did the same, it wasnt self integration.

Brilliant!

EscapeVelocity said...

We arent illegitimate. This nation was built by Euro Christians, and founded upon Euro Christian metaphysics, traditions, and heritage.

You confuse culture with genetics.

Agent Chameleon said...

"
Well, it certainly isnt proof that they didnt integrate.

Many Italians, Poles, and Germans Americanized their names and adopted English as their language, consciously discarding them, in order to integrate more easily into their new countries. Jews did as well, discarding foreign alien sounding names.

But when Blacks did the same, it wasnt self integration.

Brilliant!"

Ummm... let me try to rephrase this. Blacks were FORCED to accept Anglo names and Christianity by their Anglo Christian slave masters. This wasn't voluntary self-integration. Get what I'm saying?

" We arent illegitimate. This nation was built by Euro Christians, and founded upon Euro Christian metaphysics, traditions, and heritage.

You confuse culture with genetics."

No I am not. As an ethnonationalist I firmly believe that culture and genes are related. I reject the civic nationalist belief that culture exists in a vacuum, and I also believe that European culture that you seem to hold dear can only be maintained by white Europeans, who were the people who built that culture. People identify largely with the culture of their blood; blacks are trying to discover their roots in Africa. Likewise indigenous North Americans are trying to preserve their ancient beliefs and prevent them from being bastardized by New Age white liberals.

Afonso Henriques said...

Fjordman, two more cents from me:

While I found one of your first comments here magnific - specially the paragraph involving Russia - I don't agree much with your last one.

I'll say, directly, that your reasoning that because Americans are not indigenous they have less right to America than Europeans have to their European Nations is in my view highly discriminatory. Of course they have! They've conquered that land, so it is theirs! And I'd like to see North America and Brazil divided into smaller but more congruent true Nations. It would be much better to see such big countries divided. They could ally and sing to the world in unisson, but the States - or groups of States - would really be States.

Considering who's in and out of the movement... we shouldn't despise everything unpure. This said, everyone should be on the movement.
But after having assisted the hardcore Portuguese Racist pseudo-Nacionalists (Portuguese Hammer Skins) get away from the BNP-like party (PNR) just because they were friendly to blacks in their propaganda instead of threatening them with violence, I truly believe that some demented people should never be in.

But in a broader sense I second the words of the great right wing Brazilian essayist, living in Virginia, Olavo de Carvalho:

"Once articulated arround that centre, the various "right wing" currents could collaborate in a unified strategy instead of viciously fighting each other. When the right wingers start to understand the unity between their isolated and ocasional goals -- not to mention those that are completly an ilusion -- in which they have atempted to win in vain, RELIGEOUS AND ATHEIST CONSERVATIVES, CLASSICAL AND MODERN LIBERALS AND EVEN RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS CAN BECOME AN ORGANISED ARMY IN DEFENSE OF WESTERN CIVILISATION, without ever receeding in their specific differences."

About hating Israel. I completley understand why one can hate Israel. Specially so in the current set of things. And even more specially if one's muslim.

However, I think those European peoples, in Europe and abroad, who love/hate Israel should be *rationally neutral* and not hesitate in sacrificing Israel or Palestine if ethical precepts or matters of foreign policy so dictate. That would leave the fight for Israel out of Europe, as it should be. I support Israel mainly for two reasons:
1) I am a Nationalist and Israel is the National State of the Jews;
2) Israel is being harrassed by a muslim imensity and if it falls, (if "we" let it fall) then soon the front line will be in our doors.

Now, another thing is the Western Jew who hates Israel. And they abound, from Paris to New York and from Budapest to Buenos Aires. They hate Israel so much that they feel Israel is a threat to their ways of living in gentile's lands. They see Israel as Nationalism, thus bad. If they were pressured enough, they would see how much better Tel Aviv is to Auchwitz, the place where Jews went, when they did not have a state, last time they were harassed.

Concerning this, I remember Portuguese Angola, how the more than 10% Portuguese there did not want to leave, they were in the verge of creating a white independent state like South Africa in the late 60s and early 70s. After the revolution, one million Portuguese people (whites) arrived in Portugal from Africa. Very few stayed behind. Today, Angola is a main destination for Portuguese immigration again, as it was for the last 500 years, and specially since the last half of the XIX century.
When people are pressured, nothing is better than to have where to fled. Those Jews who hate Israel would fled there if things would get nasty.

Agent Chameleon said...

Afonso, I don't think Fjordman was saying that American whites have no right to have their own nation in North America; rather he was saying that the solutions needed are different. And he's right. Even if I support the goal of European nationalists getting as many immigrants (humanely) out of their countries as possible, I know that America can't work like that. Which is why I view pushing for an immigration moratorium a waste of time.

"
I'll say, directly, that your reasoning that because Americans are not indigenous they have less right to America than Europeans have to their European Nations is in my view highly discriminatory. Of course they have! They've conquered that land, so it is theirs! "

I think European nationalists like the BNP and FN like to cite the American Indians as an glimpse into the future for native Europeans if they continue to do nothing. And they are right. I know if I was an American Indian, I wouldn't be happy about the large white presence on the continent.

But we whites have been here for 400 years, and I don't see how we could all move to Europe. Would the Germans and French be willing to set aside land for 200 million white Americans? How about Russia? ;)

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Fjordman
Re: Good comment

With respect to the Jewish, Greek, Armenian etc. relative economic success the most helpful ideas I find are in several Thomas Sowell books, and also in Yuri Slezkine’s notion of Mercurial v. Apollonian groups.

Having gone to the blog you linked to, I find an interesting post reflecting some of the difficulties that are showing in our thread here:

“Why It’s Impossible To Discuss Jews”
http://guywhite.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/why-its-impossible-to-discuss-jews/

Afonso Henriques said...

Chameleon,

"European nationalists like the BNP and FN like to cite the American Indians as an glimpse into the future for native Europeans if they continue to do nothing."

The only time I saw that was when, in 1961, black Nationalists in then over 10% white Portuguese Portuguese Angola, which had been Portuguese since the beggining of the XVI century... you got my point.

I saw it in 1961 when the black Nationalists opened the war by ravaging white settlements. They raped, mutilated and then killed all the whites they could. They burnt their houses and some bodies were... well, left in a way to cause terror. To the blacks who were maiden to those who died, and were often loyal to them, they literally chopped them into peaces.

We were a Western European Atlantic middle power at the time. Although we were in a fascist dictatorship, we were part of NATO and had helped America with miltary bases during World War II although we were neutral. Lisbon, was a safe heaven for European Jews to jump into America.

But in 1961, during the cold War, mister Kennedy criticised the Portuguese possessions in Africa, betraying their NATO ally and no one supported Portugal in the ONU.
In the streets of Luando, people went to the streets and both blacks and whites (though those were civilised blacks - "pretos de fato" or dressed blacks as the Portuguese in Angola called them - who did not represent the majority of the population of Angola) went out to the streets in a march, asking mister Kennedy where were the Indians, and claiming that blacks were better treated in Angola than in the United States of the 60s.

But I think that overall, I agree with you. Just wanted to left this piece of information you may find curious.

Agent Chameleon said...

Indeed it was interesting Afonso, thank you. :)

Afonso Henriques said...

Takuan Seyo, my response to your post.
I am currently at University studying European Studies. And although I enjoy the little I've read of Max Webber and George Steiner, I just feel it is not okay that all (or most) contemporary writers about Europe people study are Jewish. This is not anti Semitism, it is just... you got it.

First, it's not that I don't like Jews. I truly never met any. But my impression is that they for sure did not fit in here in the past, and I don't want them to come here again. And I criticise them like you do in what concerns the Jewnited States, and the Jewish roots of Marxism/Communism and their role in the Soviet Union. I just criticise Jews as aliens because too me, they look more alien then the black football players or the Ukrainian and Russian immigrants.

Imagine Jews are/were white. Okay, that was odd. I don't care how white are Jews, really. As I don't care how white are Turks or how white are blonde Chechens. I even have a difficult time in considering Bosnians as white, because white in this context is a word I don't like that means European. I have made my mind that Jews and Europeans are different and that Jews are not Europeans. But that does not matter. I use their phrase because Jews are treated differently from all (other) white peoples. Thus I've saied here much time: Imagine the Jews are white Treat them like they were white. Stop starting the news because one fellow punched a Jew and called him filthy Jew while Serbia is being bombed.
Look how Israeli offensives are looked upon and how Serbian offesnives were looked upon. Imagine the Jews are white is my scream to cease treating the Jews as such a special, protected group.

Wow! That thing about Iberian Peninsula being 20% Jewish is a gross lie! It only appeared in one highly dubious study. Read the paper and see how "toll das ist".
Just some arguments to counter. We actually expelled all Jews, their descendents were the majority of Jews in North Africa, the Ottoman Empire, and also in the Americas both South and North. Not to mention the many who were to liberal England and The Netherlands. We filled the world with our Jews, so, for you to believe that we're still 20% Jewish, we had to be like 200% Jewish before 1497;
That particular paper considers Eastern Mediterranean as Jewish. Following that logic, The vast majority of Greeks and Southern Italians are Jews, for instance;
More balanced papers found that same haplogroups at a frequence of around 5%, instead of 20%. And the subclades of those 5% were not all corresponding to Jews. How come? In Portugal and Spain, the most common of those linage was the J2 which is found mainly in Southern Italy and all across Southern-Central Europe (for instance, it is more common in Austria than in Portugal or Spain), Turkey and Northern Middle East. They found J1, which is Middle Eastern, in much lower proportions.
Sephardic Jews (and Ashkenazi) have usually the same quantity of J1 and J2. So, even if you assume that all J1 is of Jewish origin, it could as well be Arab or other, and if you double it, to account for the also frequent in Jews J2, "Jewish" (Semitic) genetical influence would be less than 5%. If you double it, because half of the Ashkenazi gene pool is of European origin, "Jewish" influence would be less than ten percent.
North African influence on the Peninsula is greater, in order of 10%.

"they have been here since before you."

Jews were here since Roman times. So that we can say that Jews were here before my language had been developed.

I stated my opinion and what I think should be done to contain negative Jewish influences. I also said what I think is likely to happen.

Agent Chameleon said...

"
Look how Israeli offensives are looked upon and how Serbian offesnives were looked upon. Imagine the Jews are white is my scream to cease treating the Jews as such a special, protected group."

The Left condemns Israeli offensives as much as Serbian offensives. In eyes of the Left Israel is evil because the Israelis are whites oppressing poor browns. Seriously, that is the rhetoric, at least from the American Left. Perhaps the Portuguese Left is more philosemitic, I don't know.

EscapeVelocity said...

I understand what you are saying, about blacks names. What you fail to recognize is that after the Civil War, blacks didnt to any large degree, adopt Africanizations as names.

That came about post 60s, which is when the New Left Commies agitated groups to reject white American culture.

Past that point you can see that immigrants dont Americanize their names, that goes for all immigrants, Indians, Europeans of various Ethnicities, and Blacks decided to Africanize their names.

This is the difference between non Welfare State melting potism and the New Left psuedo Multiculturalism. I say psuedo, because the old dominant cultural groups are prevented from partcipating and their culture is subjugated to others.

This is a culture and ideology war.

Tribalism as multiculturalism.

You agree with the tribalism. I to a large extent reject that.

That being said, certain groups prohibited from protected class status, are being oppressed....and the short term answer to that is to join the identity politics game....but not on the political party level. At the systemic structural level, colorblindness, conservative Euro Christian culture, classical liberalism, should continue to be policy. Identity politics should be played not to advantage our groups, but to prevent the unfair treatment of them. Males and whites, primarily. To counter the very successful identity politics of the New Left coalition idenity groups, within government policy, and intitutions, and corporations and business cultures.

It also will give an positive infrastructure preserving white Euro Christian male, heritage, stories, myths, and culture...without it being rewritten to please other groups.

That is the way I see it.

EscapeVelocity said...

"Which is why I view pushing for an immigration moratorium a waste of time."

Its not, because as the PC Multicultural system stands, it will end American culture and perhaps its very Constitution as we know it.

The Latinos have plenty of land on which to prosper.

Without a strong dominant Anglo culture and a system that promotes self assimilation, immigration should be stopped.

EscapeVelocity said...

African Americans 98% of them have European blood.

The same goes for just about everyone else, having European of varying ethnicities, African, Native American, and Latino blood.

We are a bunch of mutts over here in the US.

This is our reality.

We are different than Europe....although our heritage and culture is without a doubt Anglo.

Our fight is a cultural and ideological fight.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Afonso Henriques

Re: “(They) did not fit in here in the past; I don’t want them to come here again”

I think it’s a reasonable position for a Portuguese, Greek, Spaniard, Pole, Slovak – any of the countries where there were once large Jewish communities and large frictions and tragedies related to that. Also, I am not going to challenge your opinion about the Iberian conversos study; you know far more about your own territory. All I know is the study “The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula.” If you say it’s wrong, I accept it.

However; a sentiment that may be justifiable in the context of countries like Spain and Portugal is not so in the context of countries like US and Australia. The Jews are largely gone from Europe, or will be within the next generation. The issue is really the American Jews. And here, your sentiment and your solution are unjustifiable for the reasons I already explained, while the negative influence of Jewish leftism-liberalism is the strongest here. So some other approach is needed.

Re: Jews are not Europeans.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, you are wrong. First, it’s the same dilemma we have with American Blacks. The Jews did not ask to live in Europe. They were mainly brought there as slaves, in the last 30 years of the 1st century AD. You would be entirely justified to an opinion that Europe made a mistake, it should never have brought Semites to Europe. But you are not entitled to redress that error, if you consider it such, 2000 years after the unsolicited phenomenon took place.

Second, by now a significant part of European culture and a very large part of its religion are of Jewish origin even if you have never met a single Jew. Third, there have been many Jews far more European than you can ever be, while others never assimilated. I recommend for your study the life of the composer Felix Mendelssohn. The problem wouldn’t have existed if Europe rejected the non-assimilated ones. But it rejected the assimilated ones who had given their all for their European peoples, e.g. Capt. Alfred Dreyfus and Emile Zola that I referred to earlier or the decorated WW1 German Army officers that Hitler murdered. If you have an interest in exploring this subject more, I recommend the Hungarian film “Sunshine” by Hungary’s greatest (and Jewish) film director, István Szabó

Re: “Scream to cease treating the Jews as such a special, protected group.”

Jews are and will remain a special, protected group as long as moronic Jew-hating, Holocaust-denying Nazi psycho wannabes keep attacking the Jews. No person of education, discernment, culture and emotional balance can fail to cringe at that kind of antisemitism, even though he might welcome an unbiased, rational critique of Jews. The sooner you understand that, the sooner it will be possible to knock down the reticence you refer to and start a constructive and more widely accepted critique of Jews.

Agent Chameleon said...

Ok I'm really getting frustrated with how eBlogger keeps losing my posts. I wrote a long response to EV, and instead of just saying OpenID error, it said "We're sorry but we are unable to comply with your request." And now the post is gone. Frustrating!

Regardless, I think I've made my points abundant, so I guess it's good night.

EV, thanks for the conversation. Peace be with you.

EscapeVelocity said...

I hate it when that happens.

Later.

Avery Bullard said...

It would take me weeks to correct all the erroneous comments here but a few remarks.

The Left condemns Israeli offensives as much as Serbian offensives. In eyes of the Left Israel is evil because the Israelis are whites oppressing poor browns. Seriously, that is the rhetoric, at least from the American Left.

Those spouting that rhetoric are almost always voices in the wilderness. As Phil Weiss has shown time and time again at his blog Israel is almost always the exception for American 'progressives'. The vast majority American Jewish leftists who supported an end to segregation, the Afrikaner state, and immigration controls have time and time turned a blond eye to Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

I don't recall Israel being bombed like Serbia. Only now are we starting to see some leftists (including some Jews) call for a boycott of Israeli 'apartheid'. Yet still most prominent Jews (virtually all leftists/liberals) still defend Israel. Even Noam Chomsky attacked Walt and Mearsheimer over the Israel lobby.

Avery Bullard said...

You, my friend, are alive because of Jewish contributions to medicine and science.

Yeah, yeah, and England only succeeded after Jews returned after Cromwell, and Ellis Island immigrants played as great a role building America as the colonial British settlers, and there'd no Hollywood without them, and all the smart Germans and Russians were Jews. Just repeating something isn't going to make it true.

But it rejected the assimilated ones who had given their all for their European peoples, e.g. Capt. Alfred Dreyfus

I'm tired of the whole Dreyfus as Jewish martyr nonsense - in part because I once fell for it. He became a symbol more than a person and with a small minority his Jewishness was held against him, but he was not a victim of anti-semitism. As Albert Lindemann has pointed out Dreyfus's personality was more important than his Jewishness.

Most arresting officers genuinely thought him guilty. It was an anti-Semite, Georges Picquart, head of Military Intelligence, who uncovered evidence of Dreyfus's innocence and persisted despite pressure from his superiors to have the case reconsidered. Others who'd expressed anti-Semitic views like socialist Jean Jaures switched to Dreyfus's side when they suspected he was being railroaded. So far from being rejected for being Jewish - being rich and haughty were more important - even French anti-Semites put truth ahead of any misgivings they had about Jews. That doesn't sound like a rejection of assimilated Jews. Of course, the pop history version is that the French were a bunch of pathological Jew-haters and the Dreyfus Affair is hailed as a turning point. It is unsurprising that his status as being a victim because he was Jewish is protected today.

Those successful blacks whom you cite as having adopted middle class Euro American values once tended to be doctors or entrepreneurs. Now they are Ivy League lawyers and government mandarins taking America apart.

Those blacks are the biggest proponents of affirmative action and other privileges. After all, they and their future children and grandchildren are the main beneficiaries. The blacks at the bottom rarely benefit from AA. It is looking the same for Hispanics. It's already the case that Hispanics who are assimilated and are often white, or at least more white than brown, are leading proponents of identity politics for Hispanics. There is no hope of assimilation.

Avery Bullard said...

Sorry, I meant: It's already the case that Hispanics who appear to be assimilated and often white, or at least more white than brown, are leading proponents of identity politics for Hispanics. There is no hope of assimilation.

Takuan Seiyo said...

Mr. Bullard,
Your many techniques here include the purposeful omission and the reductio ad absurdum. I mentioned Emile Zola twice in the preceding posts. He wrote a little thing called "J'accuse", and he was closer to the matter then you are. Zola was French too, the last I checked, hence the pin with which you are trying to affix those nefarious designs on me has a blunt point.As to your other gems, I'll pass. Life's too short.

Armance said...

Actually the American and world Jewish organizations were among the most active and passionate advocates of bombing Serbia and economically boycott Belgrade ten years ago.
Jewish Holocaust survivors, starting with Elie Wiesel, compared the Albanian refugees with the Jewish victims in WWII and asked the American government to take measures against the "genocide".

Just to have an idea about the enormous level of Jewish involvment in "punishing" the Serbs, here's an article from the mainstream Los Angeles Times, 1999:

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/09/news/mn-25711

Quotes:

The ADL, which last month issued statements supporting the NATO bombing campaign, is sponsoring full-page ads in two major newspapers today imploring readers to "respond as you wish the world had responded the last time." The ads ask for donations to help "innocent victims of hatred."

Jewish Federation chapters in several U.S. cities are running their own ads and establishing relief funds. Similarly, Jewish organizations have called on synagogues, local groups and individuals to speak out in support of the military action and the newly exiled.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Armance

Re: Jewish Orgs
You are exactly right, and it’s not the half of it. As I have stated several times in discussions with you and your kind, you don’t know even half of the bad, and you insist on arguing with people who know both the bad and the good. BTW, one of the most incisive proponents of the truth about the Serbia-related madness and injustice caused by NATO, and particularly the US, is a Jewish-American writer and comedienne of Russian origin, Julia Gorin. You can learn a lot from her Internet-available articles on this subject.

Afonso Henriques said...

Chamaleon,

"Imagine Jews are white".

I am not talking of the left. It was unanimous among the right that Serbians were bad, while some of them recognise Isarel's right to defend itself.

I was not concentrating on the left (extremists or otherwise) but "actually" on the larger society. If Serbians raise a finger, like any other European people, they will be condemned by all.
If Jews do it, it will not open news as some sort of White Supremacist / Nazi revival.

When Europeans are attacked in the street, no one cares to report it, no one cares to aknowledge.
When a Jew happens to be the victim, it opens the news! And even if the perpetrators of the attacks are, say, muslims, the news will make it seem that it is an European white power like, Nazi Anti Semitism.

Thus, imagine the Jews are white, still makes sense to me.

Baron Bodissey said...

EscapeVelocity --

Please don't paste long URLs into the comments; they make the post page too wide and mess up the appearance of the permalink page.

Use link tags; the instructions are at the top of the full post's comment section.

----------------------

EscapeVelocity said

History of Mohawk ethnic cleansing...

In defense of Mohawk land: ethnopolitical conflict in native North America By Linda Pertusat

link

Baron Bodissey said...

apsco17 --

Please don't paste long URLs into the comments; they make the post page too wide and mess up the appearance of the permalink page.

Use link tags; the instructions are at the top of the full post's comment section.

----------------------

apsco17 said

Here's the despicable answer to the question of can discrimination be legal:

"n the 1980s, some Mohawks contested the policy before the human rights tribunal, but lost. The courts have ruled that Mohawks can make any membership policy they deem necessary for their survival as a people.

"We're very concerned about protecting our identity because at a certain point, the Canadian government will look at us and say: 'You are not even Indians,' "Delaronde said."

Read more: link

So - discrimination for thee but not for me is perfectly legal for this privileged and favoured welfare minority.

Afonso Henriques said...

Takuan Seyo,

I hope that you're not including me as a "Holocaust-denying Nazi psycho wannabe" who keeps attacking Jews. I really believe you did not. I try to criticise the Jews in a specially (though not exclusiveley) rational ground.
But, it seems that those "Holocaust-denying Nazi psycho wannabes" are really not a threat and "the Jewery" holds much more power than they today, directly or indirectly.
And I don't like people facing prision for questioning the Holocaust in some countries. As you don't.

We differ mainly in the "why" Jews are a protected group. They are so due to many reasons but it's not because moronic "the Jews did it!" people exist.

"a sentiment that may be justifiable in the context of countries like Spain and Portugal is not so in the context of countries like US. The Jews are largely gone from Europe, or will be within the next generation. The issue is really the American Jews."

Ok, I agree with you and think this is the main sentence on your comment: The issue is really the American Jews.
The problem is that trough American dominance - which is largely influenced by Jews - those Jews exhert a strong influence in all of the Western World (Soros, Obama's friends/owners, etc).

So, what can we do? I've talked about it. I don't want to see all American Jews deported to Israel. What I want, is European-America to realise that Jews are an ethnic minority that is something like "Israelo-American" and whose interests may collide with that of European America. I want this connection to Israel to be clear, they now have a home like Anglo-Americans.
Armenian Americans are considered Armenian-Americans and not a special semi-holly community who may or may not be calling the shots in the country.

"Jews are not Europeans."
"it’s the same dilemma we have with American Blacks."

No dillema. African Americans are citizens of the United States, Brazil, Colombia, Jamaica, etc. However, they are not Native Americans.
Now, in African, or mixed African majority countries, blacks should feel at home. In European-American countries blacks can continue to live in peace, but they will not be beneffited for being black.
I think in the 50s blacks did not commit much crime or filled the top of American charts with bad rap/R&B, nor were they slaves. I think the racism would diminish slowly.

Jews are not native Europeans, although they've been arround for long and have mark our History and gave some massive contributions to it. Massive is not the same as crucial (if we disregard what we can't: Christianity).

P.S. - Takuan Seyo, the other guy who said that when the hour of truth comes, virtually all Jews would turn against Europeans.
This is, as I see it, a touchy but worrying scenario. That's why I consider Bosniaks, Albanians, Jews and Gypsies as "non whites", meaning non Europeans.
This, because, if (only if, and it's a big if) that extreme hour comes, it may be morally wrong and pretty much impossible/suicidal for one member of these ethnicities to side with the Europeans against their ethnicitie's interests. This is extreme.

(I claim that Jews in the Peninsula lived better under muslim rule than under Christian rule, because European/Christian interests collided more with the interests of the Jews than the islamic interests collided with the interests of the Jews.)

I feel that European Civilisation's and people's interests *can potentially* shock with those of those ethnicities I mentioned. We ought also to talk about it.

While our interests are the same NOW, they may be different tomorrow. While I can conciliate sub Civilisational rivalries, it's hard to conciliate when one group (leftists) tries to undermine the interests of an entire Civilisation.

Afonso Henriques said...

Concerning the genetical study, you can see it analysed here.

This guy accepts the raw data of the study. I do not because it differs from other papers and because it seems very biased.

I would now describe how Sub Saharan and Northern African bloodlines in Southern Portugal and Spain are usually inflated, despite being obvious that those abound here when in comparison to other European regions. But I won't, I just take some excerts of the analysis he presents to that paper:

"The authors modeled the (modern!) Iberian population as (simply!) a 3-way mix with "Basque", "Sephardic", and "North African"."

"The North African component may be roughly correct; it is similar to the 6% reported for Sicily."

"THE SEPHARDIC (JEWISH) COMPONENT IS HOWEVER SUSPECT, AS IT MAY BE OF EITHER ARABIC OR ITALIAN ORIGIN, OR INDEED EVEN EARLIER POPULATION MOVEMENTS FROM THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN." (Not to mention pre historical movements, Phoenicians, Cartaginians and Greeks come to mind).

"Another point of contention is with the use of Basques as pre-Sephardic/Muslim Iberians. The Christian population of Iberia prior to the arrival of the Jews and Muslims, included non-Basque Celtiberians, Romance speakers, as well as a Visigoth/Germanic layer.

Nor is it clear that the North African component in Iberians stems from Muslim converts, since bidirectional movement of populations across Gibraltar may predate the occupation of Iberia."

"To see the reliability of this type of study, consider that what this study terms "Sephardic", is what another recent study termed "Phoenician"."

"In the previous study Ibiza was considered Phoenician-influenced and compared with Mallorca and Minorca. In this one, Ibiza is assigned a hefty 33% "Sephardic Jewish" influence"

There was never a big Jewish community in the island of Ibiza. Funny is, however, that before the Punic Wars, Ibiza was controled by the Carthaginians and before that, it had been a main Phoenician island.
However, the nearby island of Minorca had for centuries a thriving and big Jewish community. Researchers found little trace of Jewish influence in that island.
But look at the following:

"... while Minorca only -7.5% (Jewish influenced). AT LEAST, ONE WOULD THINK THRY'D PICK AN ADMIXTURE METHOD THAT DIDN'T RESULT IN NEGATIVE CONTRIBUTIONS..."

They took the Basques to represent "European Iberians" purposedly to overrate the admixture in this study:

"In plain English, the authors could just as well have written: "Basques are distinct from other Iberians. This may be due to either
(I) the fact that there were indeed differences between Basques and other Iberians even before the Muslim occupation/Jewish settlement: after all they occupy their own region, not Iberia-at-large, and speak a different language. Or,
(II) IT COULD BE THAT THE REST OF THE IBERIANS HAVE UNDERGONE SUBSTANTIAL ADMIXTURE WITH MUSLIMS AND JEWS. WE ARBRITARILY CHOOSE HYPOTHESIS (II) AS OUR PREMISE, AND ¡QUÉ SORPRESA! OUR DATA BACKS UP OUR PRE-SUPPOSED IDEA."

"the most important single aspect of Iberian history, i.e., the Roman conquest, which would have introduced not only the dominant language, but also a fair amount of genes is totally ignored.

In fact this is the single reference to the Roman period in this paper:

The Jewish presence was very long-established, with some evidence that it predated the Christian era; many Jews, however, are thought to have arrived during the Roman period

But, seriously, in the Roman period, not only Jews, but most importantly Romans settled in Iberia. And, by the way, they must have been numerous enough to change the language. But, let's ignore these pesky Romans and pretend that Iberians are a simple mix of Basques/Moroccan/Jews."

Takuan Seiyo said...

@ Afonso Henriques

I don’t consider you among the psycho critics of Jews, and agree with some of your observations, but I think that in other ones you are mistaken.

“When the hour of truth comes, virtually all Jews would turn against Europeans” -- I believe that it may be so for American Jews, with respect to Europe alone. The group memory they carry of Europe is bitter. They are overwhelmingly descendants of Eastern European Jews that emigrated to America from territories where antisemitism was extraordinarily deep and toxic. The later Holocaust and the complicity of many non-German Europeans in it did not help. I have been in several situations with American Jews, both personal and via forums, where I found myself the lone defender of Europe and redresser of historical truths that my Jewish interlocutors presented in a one-sided way. Sort of the reverse of what I am doing with you and more so when it’s a psycho monomaniac at the other keyboard.

“Jews are an ethnic minority that is something like "Israelo-American" and whose interests may collide with that of European America” – this is a complex issue.

1. You are wrong in calling them “Israelo-Americans.” Jews are loyal and grateful to the United States, except for their leftmost fringe. Yes, Jews are pro-Israel except for, again, their leftmost fringe and also their Ultra-Orthodox. But it’s no different from (Catholic) Irish Americans being pro IRA, or the Italian, Scots, Chinese, Mexican ones maintaining a special place in their heart for the land of their ancestors. Second, there are tens of millions of non-Jewish Americans who are strongly pro-Israel. This blog is pro-Israel. I am pro-Israel, and I have visited there and don’t even like the country much. So if you don’t like Israel or America’s support for Israel, that’s one thing. But to see the pro-Israel trend in America as some kind of Jewish ethno-conspiracy, that’s nonsense.

2. On the other hand, I do believe that much of American Jews’ political orientation and activity that’s not related to Israel collides with the interests of European America and European Europe. That is what started my post here in the first place. I disagree with those who see in it a group survival mechanism, conspiracies etc. As I pointed out in an earlier post to EscapeVelocity, all the things in which Jewish contributions harm the interest of Euro-America, harm Jewish interests first and foremost. I explained the mechanism by which it works. Hint: if you examine the political orientation and activities of the Roman Catholic Church and of all mainstream Protestant denominations, you will find a similar syndrome, differing only with respect to Israel (it’s mostly the Evangelicals who are pro-Israel).

In brief, this is a problem as far as I am concerned, and Jews do occupy many important positions in America. I am not sure how it may may be tackled, but of one thing I am sure – the antisemitic nutjobs cannot help the cause they purport to defend but will only harm it. Indeed to be imprisoned for Holocaust denial is wrong. On the other hand, the denial itself is something so monstrous that one must recoil. The denial cannot harm the dead Jews, but it does great harm to living Europeans and Euro-Americans.

Agent Chameleon said...

"On the other hand, the denial itself is something so monstrous that one must recoil. The denial cannot harm the dead Jews, but it does great harm to living Europeans and Euro-Americans."

Indeed, WNs should not be denying the Holocaust, but instead recognizing how evil the destruction of an ethnic group is.

However, I think one of the key tactics we need to deploy is to diffuse the Left's use of the Holocaust as a weapon against whites. Whenever a white person expresses opposition to ethnic cleansing, the Holocaust is invoked... by his opponents. Don't want millions of Africans, Chinese, and Pakistanis flooding into your country? You want to gas 6 million Jews!

And I think that's part of what fuels the WN desire to deny the Holocaust; they perceive the Holocaust as a weapon against their people, and so it must be disproved, no matter how ludicrous the "rebuttal" becomes.

We need to construct a paradigm where we accept the Holocaust happened and that it does not invalidate white nationalism in the slightest. Rather it reminds us of how important HBD (Human Biodiversity) is, and why nationalism must always be tempered with compassion and understanding, rather than hate and saber-rattling.

TS, what are your thoughts of the American Third Position party? I was excited about hearing of a WN political party, but then was disappointed when finding out that Kevin MacDonald and James Edwards are leading it. It's probably going to be antisemite central.

EscapeVelocity said...

Im pretty much in agreement with TS there.

The Jews are powerful in the US, because the system is open to them and they are high achievers.

Also the New Left has been very effective at pushing their agenda, so much so that New Leftism is the Cultural Zeitgeist in the US. Jews are the farthest Left group in the US, they have been leaders in this movement.

But there are significant Jews that are leaders in the Conservative cause, because they are high achievers, and a significant minority are Conservatives.

You are condemning Jews for being high achievers. Its not a nefarious plot, that they are executing, they are participating in what other groups are participating in, the Left Right devide of Western Civilization...Socialism's push. They are just another tribalist identity political group in coalitioin on the Left....however they are higher achievers than the other groups.


I also wanted to say, that the Left is turning on Israel. Even in the US. Traditionally, the large minority group supporting in large majority the Democrat Party, which is where the Left gathers, has kept the Democrats pro Israel in the past. (Now even the American Jewish far Left is turning on Israel). If Jews left the coalition on the Left, and started supporting Conservatives....the American Left and the Democrat Party would quickly turn to anti Semitic anti Israel policy, no other groups on the Left are natural supporters.

The American Right are strong supporters of Israel. Blaiming American Jewry for support of Israel is just plain stupid. Christian Zionism cant be blamed on Jews. Jewish NeoCons support Israel. And Israel is a natural ally against first the Communists in the region and now the Islamics. They share our Judeo-Christian heritage, and are a European Style Liberal Democracy, filled with Europeans. Natural allies.

A little more nuance of thought is called for here.

As TS notes, you dont know the half of it.

EV

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Agent Chameleon
I agree with your observations. I’d not touch a WN party that the two individuals you mention head. On the other hand, if Jared Taylor headed such a party, and if he cast off Stormfront, I’d be tempted.

It reminds me of a question one crypto-Himmler asked me in an email: “When the shooting starts, on whose side you are going to be, boyo?”
I answered: “I’ll be on the side of the Euro-American gentlemen. I don’t believe we’ll be on the same side.”

Agent Chameleon said...

I answered: “I’ll be on the side of the Euro-American gentlemen. I don’t believe we’ll be on the same side.”

LOL, excellent!

Yeah, I've given up on Jared Taylor. He would make an excellent leader if it wasn't for his poor judgment.

I've been trying to nudge Lawrence Auster into starting something. He agrees that something needs to happen, so we'll see. At the very least, I hope he starts another PWC conference.

Agent Chameleon said...

Slightly off topic, but Arthur Kemp, BNP intellectual, has done some research on Karl Marx's rabid antisemitism. I wonder how many anti-Semites realize how much they have in common with Karl Marx. ;)

(I'm also going to trying this hyperlink technique)

My Title

Agent Chameleon said...

Wow I'm dumb. The My Title is a link to Arthur Kemp's article.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Agent Chameleon
@EscapeVelocity

Jared Taylor is a born leader with poor judgment, but Lawrence Auster can only be an intellectual leader, not a leader of men, let alone of a WN party. There might be hope among some general officers, but for the time being too many of them of the highest distinction have turned out to be career-first, PC-spouting Islamic stooge weasels. I believe we cannot wait for The One, and must proceed without one. “Community organizing.” All this will be in the near future in the next chapters of “Meccania-Atlantis” that I am working on.

EscapeVelocity has made good points about being friendly to and working with Jews. The case must be made more eloquently that the Jews’ very physical survival, and the survival of Israel, depend on the survival of White-Euro culture, White-Euro/Anglo majority and orientation in the US, and White-Euro Europe. Jews are beginning to understand that in countries like France, that they must now flee, but it’s too late for them. It’s still not too late in America.

Afonso Henriques said...

"The American Right are strong supporters of Israel. Blaiming American Jewry for support of Israel is just plain stupid. Christian Zionism cant be blamed on Jews. Jewish NeoCons support Israel. And Israel is a natural ally against first the Communists in the region and now the Islamics. They share our Judeo-Christian heritage, and are a European Style Liberal Democracy, filled with Europeans. Natural allies."

Set aside what is right or wrong. Set aside your positions. See around. Alow yourself to be a simple non judgmental spectator in world affairs.

By doing this, I can understand why the European left does not like Israel much.
Seeing reality in Europe, I can understand why the average European feels sorry for the Palestinian and admires the Israelis. But, I can understand why and how the average anti-Isareli European dislikes Israel.

And in America? Why do non Jews support Israel?

Unless it can be explained by religeous/metaphisical explanations, the kind that are totally non issues in Europe, it is all about:
1) Empire building
2) Sympathie towards Jews because Jews just deserve it (there's no sympathy of the kind reserved to someone else, specially so in anti-colonial America).
4) Since 9/11, dislike of muslims.

To me, the usual reasons I think Americans support Israel for, are "not so good".

Mine reasons to support Israel are the good ones:
1) The Jews, like everybody, deserve their own Nation-State, which they have already created.
2) In the current Civilisational puzzle, if Israel falls, the front line of tomorrow may well be our front doors.

I also recognie as legitimate any reason that stresses the commonality and "nearness" between Jews and Europeans.

But reasons like "Israel is more of leftist state than the Arab ones" or "Israel follows our style as a democracy while Saudis have their own system" are reasons that, to me, don't sufice.

It is not that I want the U.S. to cease to support Israel, it simply seems to me that the United States support of Israel is mainly for the wrong reasons.

Afonso Henriques said...

"When the hour of truth comes, virtually all Jews would turn against Europeans."

Wow! I was shaking when I typed those nasty words. But your response, my friend, is amazing. You are really trying to adress the problem. People like you, my friend, are excedingly rare.
(I don't understand - or remember - why you don't allow comments on Brussels Journal, but that is another issue and that's entirely of yourself only)

Concerning your answer to this, Takuan Seyo, I have a prejudiced view of America and Europe. I believe that the Europeans are largely potentially Nationalistic; the Americans are not. America is becoming anti-Western, and not because of blacks or indians but mainly because of Jews and whites. Look at how they cherished Obama!
A future America may really be anti Western. And the Jews are not concentrated in Texas but in New York, New England and stuff. So, if they turn against Europe, will they not turn against the parts of America with less Jewish influence? I don't know. We'll see. But it seems true that most Jews can pass as white in America if they want to. Just like "Hispanics". To me the problem with Hispanics is to label them Hispanic instead of make them identify with white America or their own race whatever it is. Divide and conquer.

"Jews are loyal and grateful to the United States"

No doubt. The problem is that they at large think they must improve the U.S. by degrading the European American hegemony in it.

"the antisemitic nutjobs cannot help the cause they purport to defend but will only harm it."

A nutjob, by definition cannot helo the causes they are purport to defend, right? Antisemitic or not, the problem is they are nutjobs.
And anti semitic is really like racist. It is empty. I believe you don't see me as an anti semitic because of what I am saying but most Jews, and even most non Jews would probabily consider me an anti semite.

Everyone who languishes for the destruction of a people, however, can't do much to favour another but in times of violent war, right?

Overall, I don't differ much from you. I just won't give the beneffit of the doubt to the Jews. On the contrary, I start not by being anti Semitic but by being painfully suspecting them a priori.

EscapeVelocity said...

The reasons that you support Israel are very. The other reasons you state arent invalid or poor...you just dont hold them.

Ive got news for you, Europe already invited the front line into Europe, they will soon be implementing Israeli security policies, so despised by the Left, roadblocks, checkpoints, apartheid walls to protect non Muslims from Muslim violence, and so on and so forth.

So that strips you reason number 2 of much of its guts.

The reasons for allying with Jews and Israel and supporting them, are many. They are natural allies against Islam.

Empire building has nothing to do with it. Just like opposing Communism by allying with and inserting ourselves(the US) into conflicts on continents around the globe had nothing to do with Empire Building and everything to do with containing Communism. Now Islam needs to be contained.

Jews do deserve sympathy for the Shoah, that occured during WW2. (I do get that others are often not afforded the same sympathy) but that is hardly limited to Jews, African Americans, Third Worlders of all stripes, Native Americans as the OP of this thread clearly shows, are all on another unfair double standard. No doubt about it. I reject that double standard. But I dont reject all groups that are predisposed to that double standard, based on their race or other identity markers, but on their ideology.

That is the key.

Many Leftist Jews are terribly upset by the Western Lefts turn on Israel. Yet they hold Euro Christians to the same unfair double standard that the rest of the Left is now holding Israel too. They are not upset about the double standard, which they have long supported with regards to White Euro Christians, but that Israel (Israeli Jews) have somehow been put on the wrong side of the double standard with the White Euro Christians.

This is an opportunity. The double standard is stairing them in the face. The Left is becoming hostile to them, but they are hesitant to become Neo Cons....for ancient (and not so ancient) fears of the White Euro Christian.

Islam in the West, and otherwise, and the Western Lefts Anti Semitic Anti Israel Anti Zionist turn is providing an opportunity to sway/realign a large percentage of the Jews politically, to Conservative allies...in the US.

Since Jews have largely been ethnically cleansed from Europe already, Euro Nationalists, need to drop the anti Israel/Jew stuff, and focus on a real threat to them, Islam and Muslim immigration and populations. Its good to see the SIOE crowds waving Israeli flags.

Jews and Israel are now being attacked by the Western Left in the same manner that Euro Christians are...that is an opportunity. Dont blow it.

EscapeVelocity said...

Anti Westernism is the perview of the Western Left.

Again, you confuse ideology and culture with genetics.

White Anti Western Leftists are more powerful than the Jewish Left. The enemy is ideological, not racial. Without a self hating Western Left, the minority groups would not be problematic.

The problem is the Left and Islam. Islam wouldnt even be a problem without the White Euro Leftist.

Blaming Jews misses the real problem. Jews are just one of many minority groups on the Left coalition with the White Euro Leftists. They are disproportionately high achievers, so become high visibility targets. But its the Left that is the problem, not the Jews per se.

Sean O'Brian said...

But reasons like "Israel is more of leftist state than the Arab ones" or "Israel follows our style as a democracy while Saudis have their own system" are reasons that, to me, don't sufice.

This is not a good reason to support Israel anyway. If tomorrow Israel abolished elections and declared itself an absolute monarchy (the Kingdom of David and Solomon?) would many pro-Israel people suddenly drop their support for that country like a hot potato? I think a lot of people would, if they felt they had to remain firm in their insistence on democratic values above everything else. This kind of ideological, neoconservative consistency has already led to an electorally-endorsed, legitimised Hamas government in the territories and to the strengthening of the anti-secularist AKP government in Turkey.

EscapeVelocity said...

"But reasons like "Israel is more of leftist state than the Arab ones" or "Israel follows our style as a democracy while Saudis have their own system" are reasons that, to me, don't sufice."

They may not resonate or suffice for you, but they are very powerful motivators. Ideology matters. If you are limiting your thought to ethno-nationalist immediate self interest, then you are missing the broader battle. Your reasons are valid, but your denunciations of other motives as immaterial is incorrect.

"It is not that I want the U.S. to cease to support Israel, it simply seems to me that the United States support of Israel is mainly for the wrong reasons."

There are many factions and groups in the US that support Israel for many different reasons. Your analysis is too simplistic.

EscapeVelocity said...

Hamas seized power undemocratically, in a violent suppression of Fatah.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Afonso Henriques

"When the hour of truth comes, virtually all Jews would turn against Europeans."

Clarification – the Jewish majority turned against traditional White European culture already in the late 30s. It’s nothing new, and you need not cast it as though it will be revealed at some future hour of truth. Nor was it unwarranted, given the Jews’ persecutions (pre-Nuremberg Laws) even in countries like Austria and Germany where they had been a patriotic, model minority, except for their relatively small commie-socialist contingent. This anti-Europeanism is pretty much the credo of the Frankfurt School, the famous quote of Susan Sontag etc.

What does it mean “turned against?” They have turned against Europe in the same measure as Giscard d’Estaing or Zapatero, or the entire Eurabian, White, formerly-Christian elite have turned. The trauma of the Holocaust (and not only the Jewish one) has done it. I believe that it’s a tragically misguided response, and I object to this attitude entirely, even though I am a victim of the Holocaust myself. But I fail to understand why your concern and suspicions evolve exclusively around Jews, when the non-Jewish ruling elite of Eurabia, on a contintent where there are very few Jews left, is doing its best to rob you of your nation, culture, tradition, wealth and gene pool unceasingly, every day.


“The problem is that they at large think they must improve the U.S. by degrading the European American hegemony in it.”

I think that this is correct as long as applied to the thrust of “Organized Jewry,” but does not merit the phrase “they at large.” The majority of American Jews does not support these goals, and the Jewish paleocon, white-conservative writers attack these Jewish organizations harshly. I refer you to my article “F Street” published at GoV. But again, even though I view Jewish orgs such as ADL, AJC, HIAS etc. as my direct enemies, and the enemies of my country, there is nothing about them that does not apply to hundreds, maybe thousands of non-Jewish liberal-activists orgs and NGOs in the US. So I still do not understand why your concern is so specifically and exclusively about the Jewish part of this tableau.

EscapeVelocity said...

I just wanted to state, that I find the term Jewnited States offensive. And the narrative behind it is crass. Its use also does not advance an intellectual discussion or understanding of the issues involved.

EscapeVelocity said...

Again, I concur with TS.

Avery Bullard said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Baron Bodissey said...

Avery Bullard --

Here is your comment with the gratuitous personal insults removed. Please restrain yourself.

-------------------------

Avery Bullard said...

I mentioned Emile Zola twice in the preceding posts. He wrote a little thing called "J'accuse", and he was closer to the matter then you are.

FWIW J'accuse! contains false accusations and Zola knew that at the time. For Zola it was all about his opposition to Jesuits and the military. You used the myth of Dreyfus as victim of anti-Semitism to justify your preconceived views without any concern for truth.

the Jewish majority turned against traditional White European culture already in the late 30s. It’s nothing new, and you need not cast it as though it will be revealed at some future hour of truth. Nor was it unwarranted, given the Jews’ persecutions

So not only do you claim we have Jewish medicine and science to thank for our very existence but Jewish hostility to Europeans was not unwarranted. It was a mere reaction to European anti-Semitism. And based on your previous comments I suppose you think this anti-Semitism was not due to Jewish actions but some pathology.

[redacted]

Takuan Seiyo said...

Mr. Bullard,
Your “J’accuse” of Zola’s “J’accuse” belongs in the same compendium with The Protocols. Please, go to a forum where everyone is at least ¾ Aryan. I am only ½, and Sarmatian at that. You and I cannot sit at the same table, and you are just wasting your time and mine with this heckling. Your namesake in “Executive Suite” exits at the beginning of Act 1 after having run his furniture company into the ground. Can you take a hint?

Agent Chameleon said...

"Please, go to a forum where everyone is at least ¾ Aryan."

I really wish these AS WNs would also stop equating whites and Aryan. Whites are largely descended from people who have lived in Europe long before any Indo-Iranian invaders swooped in and introduced the Indo-European languages.

I'm not Persian or Indian, and thus I have no desire to connect with the term Aryan. Let's take pride in our actual heritage rather than fictional supremacist nonsense originally used to justify British colonialism in India.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@Agent Chameleon
In fairness, I don’t know that he does. I used the term Aryan only as a hint of neo-Nazism. But I descend on my mother’s side from people who were quite racist themselves, and took pride in their purported descent from Sarmatian warriors as opposed to the regular Polack hoi polloi. It’s BS, but fascinating. The world is awash in this kind of thing. In Japan, “Conservative” means Socialist who believes that the Emperor is a direct descendant of the goddess Amaterasu. People who deal with DNA research and things like that, and hint that the Imperial family may actually have Korean origins, risk their lives.

EscapeVelocity said...

Id like to comment on Israel, and how it is affecting some diaspora Jews (especially in the US).

Now that Jews have a state and territory that is Jewish, maintains a Jewish majority and culture as policy, and have to defend this territory and the right of Israel to be and remain a Jewish state...as opposed to a multicultural state.... It is having an affect on Jews, often as they cannot reconcile their policy stances in Euro Christian nations with those that they hold for Jewish Nationalist Zionist Israel. This cognitive dissonance combined with the new hostility from both the Western Left and the Newly imported victimization identity group of immigrants, Islamics...is having an affect. Many are still trying to hold onto both positions, but are cognizant of the hypocrisy and illogicalness of their position(as anything other than tribalism). There long history as insecure minorities in Western Europe (and elsewhere) is the driver of the political positions that they have adopted on the New Left in the West. Which is pro minority rights over the majority rights. However in Israel their advocation is for majority rights over the minorities. The Western Left, sees Israeli Jews as the majority powerful oppressor of minorities, and thus they are moving towards heavy criticism of Israel (for example its racist preferential immigration policies as just one example).

I believe that this lesson in having to defend territory and their people and culture, as a majority....combined with the Western Left turn against Israeli Jews and the new threat of Islamics in the West, will be enough to see a significant shift in Jewish voting habits and political alliances and ideology amongst American Jewry.

Many of the Jewish NeoCons also think this.

I hope to help that process if I can...and have been doing so as best as I can.

Hope that makes sense...

EscapeVelocity said...

Also, as was mentioned the faltering Christian faith in Europe is problematic.

Godless Welfare State Hedonists dont have the ideological backbone to face down Islam. They will appease and get by enjoying life in their twighlight years, and leave it to their children and grand children to deal with Shariah Law and Dhimmitude. In other words, their is nothing worth dying for.

As Chantal Delsol so eloquently put...via Claire Berlinski..

Utopian ideologies were, as she says, “systems of reference structured like cathedrals,” and her use of this rich simile is no accident. Europe has spent the past several centuries, not just this one, in a series of struggles to find a replacement for its lost Christian faith. Until recently, for example, nationalism was a substitute for religious belief; in France, the idea of France itself and its civilizing mission lent meaning to the lives of Frenchmen, just as the mystical Aryan ideal stood in for religious belief in Germany. The nation-state, the arts, music, science, fascism, communism, even rationality itself — all of these were substitutes for Christianity, and all failed. “We have watched all the cathedrals fall into ruin,” Delsol laments, “one after another.” But where McGrath sees in this the inevitability of religious revival, Delsol discerns no such thing. She finds her contemporaries’ fear of ideological certainty fully reasonable: Rigid orthodoxy, after all, did give rise to both the Inquisition and the Holocaust. So a return to the past is impossible, and no one has the faintest idea what the future might hold.

Man continues, nonetheless, to long for utopia and for the absolute — this is a design feature, to paraphrase Delsol, not a bug — and for a means to interpret his existence. But he no longer possesses a coherent ideological vehicle by which to express this longing. Here she sees the source of the profound risk-aversion of the modern European: “In general,” she writes, “our contemporary cannot imagine for what cause he would sacrifice his life because he does not know what his life means.” Though Delsol does not explicitly say as much, this is as good an explanation as we are apt to find for Europe’s recent approach to international affairs: How better, for example, to explain the willingness of the Spanish people instantly and obediently to capitulate to the demands of the terrorists who last year slaughtered some 200 of their countrymen?

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3431831.html

Takuan Seiyo said...

@EscapeVelocity
I will be writing about it soon, probably to great wrath from the cryptos. Christianity too has taken several wrong turns along the way. While hardly making a clean breast of it, it has simply castrated itself in an act of conscious or unconscious contrition. Think Origen. There is no need for the castration. You own up to your errors, correct course, and move on.

EscapeVelocity said...

I look forward to it.

Yes, I agree.

There is also considerable adoption of Leftwing political narratives among Christian sects, Liberation Theology for example. And the Christian Left in the US, which is now heavily criticizing Israel, and promoting Anti Semitic tropes. The Church of Enlgand (at least in Euro and Anglo countries) seems to have lost its way, and now the Arch Bishop doesnt even seem to be opposed to Islamic Shariah Law, while preaching about Leftist Agendas, like Global Warming Fearmongering and other PC crapola. Although the Anglicans in Africa (and elsewhere) dont seem to be suffering from the same malaise.

I like Pope Bennie though.

We live in interesting times.

Agent Chameleon said...

Even though I'm Christian, I'm very annoyed with Christendom. The Church has continually backstabbed whites through promoting immigration policies, and many Christians think there is a biblical mandate for multiculturalism and multiracialism. I personally think they are incorrect, but regardless, I can't help but sympathize with pagans who bash Christianity. It seems that many Christian leaders have calculated that they have a better chance of establishing Christianism through nonwhite immigrants. The National Association of Evangelicals has said that Hispanics are the future of the American church, and the native churches of Europe seem fond of attacking nationalist parties as "unchristian". The Pope, who rails against European secularism, is silent on the ethnic cleansing of the natives.

Have whites largely fallen out with Christianity? Yes, but I don't think that justifies the Church abandoning us. The Church should continue to support the existence of the very race that preserved Christianity for almost 2000 years. They should seek to bring us back into the fold and show us that they will not stand for our dispersal.

urbanadder22 said...

As this Comments section has in part turned into a Jew-bashing Fest, I thought I'd come back and join in that long-honored endeavor.


Jews are considered, at times, white, more of the time as non-white--this, as has been said by someone here, regardless of how white their skin color. (Actually "white" is more "pink." for all pigment-poor people.)

Jews are not Europeans, it is held by some. True enough, if you accept the fact that they originated somewhere "between the rivers," that is in present-day Iraq. (And you accept the fact that all Jews [except converts] are descended from Abraham who came from "Ur of the Chaldees.")

For more than two thousand years, Jews have lived in Europe (there were Jews living in the Roman empire before the final expulsion of them from what the Romans dubbed Palaestina).

The Ancestors of today's Europeans have occupied Europe longer than that, you might well say. True enough, but the orgins of Europeans oft point back to Asia.

As I am pressed for time, I cannot go into the pre-history of the Germanic tribes, the Goths, Celts, etc., but their origins are often ascribed to be East of today's Western Europe (think Scythians, and the offspring of European women sired by Huns, Mongols, and the like.)

Anyhow, our problem are the Jews, today's Jews: overachievers, Leftists, Communists, anti-Israel, pro-Israel, etc.

The Jews are, and remain, a problem (for many in the world). The ultimate solution to the Jewish problem (not the final one, that was tried and only partially succeeded) remains--for some white Europeans and for Moslems of all shades and colors.

So what to do with those annoying Jews who are behind all the mischief in the world?

Rounding them up and killing them on an industrial scale is not feasible--as I said, it was tried and still, despite the nations refusing to grant refuge to the Jews en masse, they prevail.

I will offer the ultimate (more drastic than the "final") solution to the Jewish problem. In the vein of Dean Swift (Jonathan to those familiar with is other works), I humbly throw out (or up) this proposal for the consideration of those who want their world free of Jews (Judenrein as the Arabs like to make their parts of the world).

For the "ultimate solution," please go to:

http://thejewinyellow.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-they-are-saying-about-jews.html

Agent Chameleon said...

Leslie White, hello again. :)

Other than my disagreement with your Indo-Scythian origin of Europeans theory, I support the intention behind your satire.

Bravo.

Takuan Seiyo said...

urbanadder22
Please, I am trying to keep the discussion on factual grounds, with no feelings motivating the content one way or the other. There are four areas in which the cryptos’ arguments do not merit derisive dismissal:

1. However long the Jews have spent in Europe, they look different (unless mixed) from the autochthons, and have largely and miraculously maintained a separate gene pool and a close-but-different culture. The “non-Aryan look” was a death sentence in German-occupied Europe, except in the South where the difference was lesser. So if a crypto says that Jews are “non-European,” it’s not an automatic reason to consign him to oblivion.

2. Wherever the Jews lived in Europe, there was almost constant friction and misery. Forget for a moment whose fault it was. One of the psych. bases for antisemitism is that you hate the one whom you perceive as having compelled you to murder him. So if a European in a nearly Judenrein country says he does not want to see Jews returning there, it may be perceived as an expression of hostility to “diversity” rather than, automatically, as Jew-hatred. If you knew that the same person has no objection to Muslims, Roma etc., it would be different.

3. A disproportionate number of Jews – but not “the Jews” -- did commit heinous things on behalf of the Bolshevik NKVD and as communists in other Eastern European countries (e.g. Bela Kun in Hungary, the UB in Poland). People who talk and write about that are, again, not to be dismissed for being meretricious antisemites. In fact I blame the Jewish American establishment for not having dispersed this knowledge more widely. The issue is not in that, but in establishing that there was a vast other side to that medal. That other side has to be argued, at least for the public at large, rather than asserted a priori.

4. Jews are disproportionately represented in all the American institutions that are considered ruinous and subversive by people who care about the lefto-multiculti-dhimmi drift of America. And doubly so over-represented in the most influential of those: education, the media and the law. You cannot deny it, and if you tried, I would argue and defeat your argument as easily as I would a Nazi’s who wants to ship me off to Israel. It’s inevitable that this generate Jew bashing.

It’s item #4 that’s worrisome. Unlike the former three, the other side of the medal has not much merit. I have argued with real Nazis, and believe be no one in this forum, except for one rather briskly dismissed poster that just may be there is even near the same plane as “Final Solutions.” Most are philosemites. I am not, even though I am the only Jew (okay, ½) and the only one whose family and patrimony was wiped out by Nazism.

What prevents me from being a philosemite is #4; I am simply neutral, and I am sorry to say that the more the BHO-Emanuel-Axelrod-Schumer-Boxer-Specter-Ginsburg-Sunstein-Soros-Blankfein-Stern- ADL-SPLC-AJC-Streisand-Geffen-Zucker-Zinn-Chomsky etc, etc, etc. squad proceeds to wreck the country, if not exclusively so, the less neutral I become. Deal with that, please; the other stuff is a diversion not worth spending much time on.

Afonso Henriques said...

Escape Velocity,

the reasons I don't hold, I don't hold them because they seem counterproductive to me. Both to the United States and to European Civilisation.
And it may be argued that it is no good for Israel as well, because tomorrow, Israel may not satisfy those requirements.

"Europe already invited the front line into Europe"

Yes, but the front line I'm talking is the possibility of the Six-Days War happening to an European country. We'll see the Turks penetrating into Greece when the E.U. is not there for them and they are poor and stuff. Give it 20 or 30 years and no European Union. That's the kind of frontline I'm talking. People just think it's impossible. It is not (look at Georgia).

"They are natural allies against Islam."

This is the issue. And this is where we differ. I don't want to fight islam unless I have to. I'd be fine letting them be in Morocco, across the Mediterranian or in Asia Minor, across the Bosphorous.

But the Cruzader's States... we've lost that battle for a while by now.

The muslims undoubtedly see Israel as an European arrow stuck in an islamic body. Israel is everything but natural. Muslims see it as a provocation.
A Natural ally against islam would be, for instance, India, which has been there for long.

Israel, is a stab in long-held muslim land for centuries, at least, to muslim eyes it is so.
This is so much more offensive to muslims because they were getting free from European colonialism when Israel came into existance.

And thus, before being an ally "against" Islam, Israel *is* one of the main reasons that make muslims hate so much Europe.
Israel is the main reason for bad relations between muslims and the "Western World", Israel is the head of "Western Imperialism".

However, I don't want Israel to cease to exist, I just belive it has no way to survive in long term and it seems to me more of a problem, than an ally against a problem.

Not that things would be much better without Israel, thus my second point about front lines.

On a more personal note to you, American Empire Building during the Cold War made two gross mistakes:
1) Support anti-colonialism
2) Failing to gain the ideological battle with Che and Castro in Latin America. You won the battle, but you lost the hearts of Latin Americans.

America did not needed to act in this particular way and I think I can detect here (combined with the Marshal Plan and maybe NATO also) initial Empire Building.

P.S. - In my worldview, Neo-Cons are pretty much leftists who find the American army cool, aren't they?

----------------------------

"If you are limiting your thought to ethno-nationalist immediate self interest, then you are missing the broader battle."


No, no, no, no!
And this is very, very important!

I am conceading a state to the Jews, so that they can do whatever they want there, soley due to their Jewishness.

I don't see ethno-nationalistic aspects to be of a "temporal", immediate or not, time span.

I am conceading a state to the Jews due to their Jewishness regardless of their own behaviour or ideological intrepertations because that "ethnic state" is potentially perennial. It can go through all the ideological fashions, which are truly of a temporal carachter.
Thus ethnicity trumps ideology.
Ethnicity is potentially perennial (untill it ceases to exist) while ideologic concerns are just immediate small time spans, and they will change, adapt, evolve, etc.

You better to have an ethnic state so that you can play with ideologies. But you can't believe that an ideologically "good enough" state will secure the continued existence of your Culture, people, religeon and History.

Agent Chameleon said...

"You better to have an ethnic state so that you can play with ideologies. But you can't believe that an ideologically "good enough" state will secure the continued existence of your Culture, people, religion and History."

I have not seen a successful case of civic nationalism ever occurring in history. It seems that every people who experiment with it, such as the Romans and ancient Greeks, disappear entirely. And it does not surprise me. When you turn your very identity into something abstract like an idea, it's inevitable to rise and fall. Ideas change all the time. I would not want to entrust my identity in the realm of ideas.

That being said, I suppose one could make the case for civic nationalism by arguing that just because it's never worked in history does not mean it can't work now. Western civic nationalists are very confident in the alleged superiority of Western Civilization, and thus the masses will assimilate. I think they are very ambitious, but if the numbers flock to civic nationalism rather than ethnonationalism, we'll have no choice but to watch and see how they handle the problems affecting our people.

EscapeVelocity said...

Too much that I disagree with you on, Afonso.

I dont begrudge you your identity, culture, or nation state.

We have serious disagreements on historical matters....like US anti colonialism and empire building.

NeoCons which arent limited to Jews, often do see the US Military as a force for good in the world. But the reasons for that are a shift in understanding, that the ideolog(ies) that they once supported are negative forces in the world and for humanity....whether that be radical feminism, Socialism, Communism, anti capitalism, and so on and so forth, That is why they are NeoCons.

The US was fighting a 5th column in its opposition to Communists. Empire building was impossible.

The US largely wasnt anti colonial, the Euro powers werent strong enough to maintain hold on their Empires. Although the US did promote free trade, as the closed/protected Imperial economic systems were part of the reason for WW2 and a driver of conflict.

I suppose you think that the US should throw Taiwan under the bus too, as well as the Israelis.

Should Spain be offered up next?

Throwing Israel to the wolves will only wet their appetite. Just as happened with regards to appeasing Hitler, or ditching South Vietnam to the Communists....a battle that America backed France on and then took it upon themselves. Cuba, the same thing, JFK should have provided proper air support, or aborted the whole Bay of Pigs mission.

The Communists were pushing anti colonialist ethno nationalist sentiment across the globe, it was the US that picked up the ball where Europe retreated and tried to back locals against the Soviet backed and supplied Communists.

The US supported the White Supremacist government of South Africa, as an ally in Southern Africa for instance.

NATO, wasnt empire building, it was a defensive pact to oppose Soviet imperial advance.

As to Latin America, certainly we werent perfect, but who is. We largely have good relations with them, and they are largely propering under American hegemony. Do some Latin Americans harbor ill feelings toward the US, certainly, but then so do you.

shrugs

The US certainly isnt infallible, or beyond criticism.

You have a narrative that you like, and that is your perogative. There really isnt much for us to discuss, we see the world differently.

Afonso Henriques said...

Takuan Seyo,

"But I fail to understand why your concern and suspicions evolve exclusively around Jews, when the non-Jewish ruling elite of Eurabia, on a contintent where there are very few Jews left, is doing its best to rob you of your nation, culture, tradition, wealth and gene pool unceasingly, every day."

I know. And my concern and suspicions are not exclusively around Jews.
The marxist "whites" are the enemy, we have to cope with them.
The Jews are an enemy that, from my view, is not organically from our midst. It's like the taxist's view on foreign criminals:
It's not that they are worst than ours but they are not our criminals, therefore we shouldn't have to take their criminal behaviour.

Of course I do not aproove Zapatero.

Maybe it's because the Jews have proved to be a formidable and habil enemy :) they should be taken more seriously than everybody else.

Escape Velocity:

"Rigid orthodoxy, after all, did give rise to both the Inquisition and the Holocaust." (used as to justify how Europe has for centuries been unChristian, or at least, trying to run away from Christianity)

This text you presented seems to me the most anti-European and the most senseless thing I've seen in this topic.
About religeon in America and Europe, its differences and the reasons why people fled religion in Europe, I'd advise a recent passionate discussion that took place on Brussels Journal, great conclusions, fascinating stuff.

In conclusion, the main difference is that the church was such a huge influence in European society that *all* socialists and revolutionaries had to actually fight its power to gain some terrain.
In America, one religion has never been so dominant over the entire society. Not even the Puritan one in Massachussets.

Takuan Seyo, I loved your last four topic's comment.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@EscapeVelocity
I agree with what you say, but with reservations. The issue with your and Afonso’s differences is that stereotypes are a good and useful thing, if one invests much time and effort in updating them periodically. The view of America’s motivations that many outsiders and American leftists have was arguably correct in 1900. Now it’s vastly at odds with reality. But I do see the Neocons as a plague because of the tremendous damage they have wrought on America, not on others. To use the US Military as “a force for good” must be predicated on reckoning whether the finances of the state allow for such grand designs. Reckoning with the morality of throwing Taiwan under the bus must include the awareness that America has practically built that bus – i.e. China (I can add 10,000 words on that, but trust me).

As to Israel, Afonso’s remark on how the Muslims see it is correct, but on the other hand it has become the Europeans’ way to acquiesce to the views and demands of the men with the scimitars. America’s holding on to its own scimitars (on which USMC officers’ swords are patterned) is a great thing, for it allows us to chart our own way as we deem proper. The problem is that we are getting confused with how we deem (Bush) and what’s proper (BHO). Defending Israel does serve American and Western interests, for geopolitical, cultural, religious and moral sentiment reasons. About the self-interest, among others read George Gilder on the Israeli brain pool.

Who knows, immersed in Socialist propaganda on one hand, and still absorbing the mystic vibrations of past Jew-hatred, maybe most Europeans can no longer see all that. The perfect neo-crypto-Nazi wet dream would be to implement the “ship the Jews back to Israel” gambit, and then turn away as Ahmedinut & Co. do their thing. The problem with this, and I am talking strict realpolitik now, is that the Jews are no longer willing to yield. Even in the very worst case, Israel would do the Samson-in-the-Philistine-Temple thing, the world consequences of which it would take a reverse Turner Diaries to describe.

Afonso Henriques said...

Escape Velocity, of course we do disagree deeply.
But I think that the disagreement in itself is not bad or wrong. Those who disagree should look, focus, and think in order to agree in what can be agreed upon.

"the US Military as a force for good in the world."

In the past, when it fought the advance of Communism, most or all of the attrocities that were commited can be forgiven, for the United State's army was, to my eyes, a force for good.

Nowadays, it is different, much different. And honestly, the more I know, the more obvious it becames that the American army is not doing much good. I would even say that the United States is the main key to maintain the current "order", which I see as far from perfect, and touching the destructive.
And I keep my vision that Neo-cons are usually leftists.

About American imperialism during the Cold War, why being against Western European, anti-Communist colonialism? (yes, out of moral solidarity, right? Because you were also a colony??) Why boycott the British, French and Portuguese empires?
This is highly debatable, but the Empire building after the Cold War is rather evident, don't you think?

I don't think America should send Israel under the bus.
But from a Nationalistic point of view, Taiwan should undoubtedly be Chinese.
And I have preached from 2008 that one of the consequences of an Obama presidency would be a Chinese Taiwan by 2012. It seems it will not happen, but that's what I continue to "not discard".

A war over Taiwan would be catastrophic, and it wouldn't be worthy from my point of view.

"The US supported the White Supremacist government of South Africa, as an ally in Southern Africa for instance."

Really? That's news to me. I've focused more on the 60s and Kennedy's lack of support to my empire, as well as the South African state. How egocentrical of mine.

Concerning Latin America, you don't really have an idea of what you're talking. Their anti-Americanism is rampant, specially in the lower classes. And now it's been feeding with Chavez Bolivarism.
What shocks me the most is that the white majority Southern Cone may well be lost due to this: Chile, Argentina, Uruguay and the Southern half of Brazil. They mostly feel their right wing dictatorships were "North American Occupied Governments".
Now, to them, in a way, everything right wing is subservient to Portuguese, Spanish or North American interests, thus they can only be leftists or slaves.

Afonso Henriques said...

Takuan Seyo, I am glad to see that you agree with me in how muslims see Israel.

But let me be apologetic about Europeans being anti-Israel.

The left in Europe controls the media. During dinner time, we see, whenever they can show it, defensless Palestinians being attacked by Israeli tanks. The plight of Palestinian children is served to us as ridiculously insane.
Judging only from the pictures, Palestinians seem to be real victims.

It's only normal that Europeans symphtize with it. More, the white-supremacist / racist / Nazi / rich capitalists /etc. thing is glewd to the Israelis indirectly by our media. All this must be amplified in a country that fought WWII (as my few dealings with Germans seem to indicate).
To support Israel, is the most common (and first) step into unPC land.

And the level of education of the young European is awfull. (Though specially in my country).

For instance, today in the train I overhear young people talking: "X is greatefull because his boss gave him work. That is so fascist! How can a young man think that way! How can he think that he needs more his job than his boss need workers".

My favourite however was when, though the left tax the middle class to exhaustion, the girl explained to the other: "You see, the right wants to suffocate the middle classes in order to get beneffits for the richm while the left is more sensitive to social causes".

Our anti Israel sentiments are mainly a matter of our media and our leftism.

It was a nice and civil discussion. Thank you gentlemen.

Agent Chameleon said...

"But from a Nationalistic point of view, Taiwan should undoubtedly be Chinese."

From an ethnonationalist standpoint, Taiwan should be Taiwanese. While there are Chinese living in Taiwan (many of whom are descended from Chinese Nationalists fleeing Mao), Taiwan has a distinct ethnic group that may very well be indigenous to the island. Of course that doesn't mean the US has to get involved. We're not warring with China over Tibet, nor should we.

Afonso, you seem attached to the European colonial empires? Why is that? Do you think Europeans ruling over foreign peoples was a good thing? Do you recognize how past imperialism has come to haunt Europe? Do you think it would be better to let foreign peoples be independent?

Takuan Seiyo said...

Thank you, Afonso, too.
I like your country a lot, based on a 5-week working stay in the 1990s. But when I read that the Maoist-Troskyist Bloco won 10% of the vote in 2009, I understood that there are things under the surface that, as a foreigner, I could not see.

EscapeVelocity said...

Indeed, Afonso, seems to think that if the US didnt economically and militarilly support European Empires, with all means at their disposal at every opportunity, without regard to blood or treasure that the US is somehow has committed great crime to he and his.

It goes with the territory, though. Im used to people holding odd grudges against my country, expecting us to be selfless altruists of the highest order to whomever anywhere and everywhere and at everytime, and anything short of saintly perfection, that deserves effusive condemnation.

Strangely enough that is what many NeoCons have stated that they themselves have overcome...that demand for perfection of the US and Classical Liberalism, lest it be totally rejected.

I recommend 3 books from Jewish NeoCons.

David Horowitz & Peter Collier

Destructive Generation

Davide Horowitz

Radical Son

Ron Radosh

Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the Leftover Left

All are explorations about their turn from Radical Leftism to Newly Minted Conservatives aka NeoCons.

EscapeVelocity said...

I would even say that the United States is the main key to maintain the current "order" --- AH

While that is debateable. It certainly provides world security as best it can....to little appreciation, as usual.

EscapeVelocity said...

Id be willing to discuss both South Africa, Angola and all of Southern Africa with you.

I would also be willing to discuss Latin America.

Anti Americanism is rampant in Europe as well. What significance does it have in Latin America that it doesnt have in Europe?

EscapeVelocity said...

Ill note here, somewhat amused I must say, that the 1/2 Jew is a high achiever among this group.

Good on you TS! :)

EscapeVelocity said...

PS- Can anybody recommend a good discussion group or board, that isnt filled with the worst sort of Anti Semites and other lunatics?

I know Baron doesnt like to have more than 4 posts per person on his blog, though he seems to have indulged us here.

Thanks.

Afonso Henriques said...

Takuan Seyo and Chamaleon,

They are no problem. You may want to know that Mr. José Manuel Barroso was known as Durão Barroso as he was Prime Minister of Portugal (his actual name. Durão could be translated by Hard stick while Barroso is a spcial breed of cows).
For you to see what passes as "the right" here, he's from the right: PSD, a main party (losing power though) consisting of members of the nobility who wanted to play democracy, rich people and businessmakers, but it is overall a Socialist party, with its hymn being something like:
"Peace, Bread
Work and Freedom!"

The funny think is that Mr. Barroso was in his youth a member of the PCTP MRPP political party, a Revolutionary Workers Communist Party.
One of my teachers in college, a man who claims that Europe is heir of the three monoteist religions, remembered how in the 70s his group got envolved in fights with Durão's group, who was seen as too leftist and radical.

Then we have the PCP, classical Communists whom the people of Southern Portugal love (This people have since the Reconquista been more opressed by the Nobles and have little to no sense of private property but their homes, they also tend to do everything in a colectivist and calm and peacefull manner. Like in Southern Spain.) But this is falling.

That party you touched upon is the cool party! Great lookind female deputies! All in favour of all that feels good, against bankers and rich people, for rights, rights, rights and nothing for duties.

But the great surprise was the party in which I voted. A party that would be considered "Centrist" but that here is considered as Extreme Right (though not Nazi/Racist). They are our equivalent to the Spanish PP and have the same name.
They were expected to make 3 to 5% but ended up the third largest force with little over 10% and in front of the Leftist Block (unthinkable, if you see our media). I liked too much what it's leader said:

"From now on we are going to fight to be the first and only non Socialist Portuguese party of National relevance".

----------------------------------

EscapeVelocity said...

Afonso’s remark on how the Muslims see it is correct --- TS

I agree that Muslims see Israel a a giant thorn in their side and pride. I disagree that they blame Europe. Europe took a different path since the 1973 oil embargo than the US. They see the US as Israel's enabler, not Europe. They agree with the Europeans that the Jews are undesireable and with to be rid of them.

I would gladly accept every Israeli Jew to the US, but that wont solve any problems. The basic conflict still exists, the front line just moves.

Appeasing the worst instincts of Muslims isnt a strategy worth expending grey matter on.

Afonso Henriques said...

Actually, Taiwan is ethnically Chinese, the only thing is that those Chinese people had different political ideas. But since the one China policy was agreed by both and that there's no doubt to what China is or will be dominant... Yes, Taiwan should be Chinese.

And I am sorry for what happened to Tibet. I have mix feelings to it. But as of now, it would be ridiculous to do something to China over Tibet other than recieving the Dalai Lama.

"Afonso, you seem attached to the European colonial empires? Why is that?"

First, it's part of being Nationalistic. In the 70s, people here went to the streets claiming "Angola is ours", we then fought a 13 years war in three fronts. But I do not feel specially attached. Though my Nation had "the first, the last and the most lasting European Colonial Empire" which was our National project, our "perennial ethnic interest" ever since after the Reconquista. We started in 1415 and only gave it up in 1974. Otherwise, we'd been part of Spain. Actually, we're a lot lost right now because of that and that's the main reason we're the poorer in Western Europe. Our infrastructure was that which was built for the empire. Our Nationalist Mystic Esoteric History is dominated by a Fifth Empire, a Western Spiritual Empire that we are supposed to head. I feel to be more Atlantic than European (like Britain or Ireland).
And also, part of my family came from Africa and I know what happened to Africa and also to Africans with the departure of Europeans. It was awfull. They lived much better under our rule and it's a little about Imperium translatium, we were setting Civilisation there.

"Do you think Europeans ruling over foreign peoples was a good thing?"

In principle no. Every people has the right to be independent. But when I see a former funcional country which was not properly divided into tribal/National entities falling into a prolongued Civil War, I think it is not good at all. But it was what they wished for, so of course they deserve their independence.

"Do you recognize how past imperialism has come to haunt Europe?"

This is a false question, but I'd answer yes anyway. Though as Fjordman says, the Nordic countries did not had such a History and...
Imperialism/Colonialism created wonderfull countries and Nations like the United States, Brazil, Argentina, Canada or Australia. I think it was worth it only by these new Worlds that were opened to European Civilisation. Again, this is a false question.

"Do you think it would be better to let foreign peoples be independent?"

Yes, it is better.

Afonso Henriques said...

"Indeed, Afonso, seems to think that if the US didnt economically and militarilly support European Empires, with all means at their disposal at every opportunity, without regard to blood or treasure that the US is somehow has committed great crime to he and his."

No, I do not.
I understand that American policy.
I can even understand and accepted that American principles run counter Colonialism.

But that does not erases the fact that that United States's policy was most times counterproductive as it helped countries to become independent against its NATO anti Communist allies in Western Europe. Recently independent countries who then developed good relations with the Marxists. (Egypt, Angola, Vietname, etc)

"Anti Americanism is rampant in Europe as well. What significance does it have in Latin America that it doesnt have in Europe?"

I am not an anti-American. European anti-Americanism I've encountered is of different kinds:

1) It is cool, chic, and shows how you are intelligent and socially desirable. People are anti-American because it seems good, it feels good, etc. This lacks any reasonable thinking behind it. It mostly derives from the desire to be better than America (see France).

2) Instead of Jews did it, it is Americans did it. It does not lack reasonable thinking. It derives from a superficial and simplistic view:
The gas is not cheaper? The oil is connected to the dollar? Americans did it!
McDonalds makes you fat? Americans did it!
America is at war with Iraq, Afghanistan, was at war with Vietname and Korea, and Germany and Japan?
Americans are always at war! Americans did it!
Americans won WWII? Americans became powerfull? I don't like their power? Americans are to be blamed for all the wrongs in the world!

To my view, what most feeds this anti-Americanism is indeed MTV and racist rednecks and the like. The degraded image America passes to the world.

3) Leftist and Far Leftist Anti American Hatred.

4) Rational American hatred. For instance, once I entered into a taxi and the man started to talk about the world, his life and what was wrong. He then says, you see, I am anti-American. He is anti American because he sees the bad America does to the world. Unfortunately, what he does not see, is the much greater wrongs non Americans do. (These people tend to sympathise with the E.U. and muslims because they don't have a clue).


Latin American hatred is
the kind of La Razza in Mexico.
The kind of people who feel that their Civil Wars and poverty is due to the United States, like in Central America.
Bolivarian anti-European/anti-American hate, like that of Chavez, in which America is more or less seen as the entrave for a perfect world.
As a racist, too rich, soul less, without vallues, depraved, snob, hegemonic society, like in "blue eyed people are responsible for the financial crisis" Brazil.
Like the due to the dictatorship imposed by the United States my neighbout's daughter was horribly raped and tortured and her son disappeared, like in "Las Madres de Mayo" Argentina.
Or like, the U.S. says one thing and does another if it suits it better because they have no morality and putted the elected Allende away from the governor and put Pinochet instead, that's why my cousin is dead, Chile.

In Europe anti-Americanism is a game, is ... nothing.
In Latin America, it is the answer to all evils, and some of these evils are very painfull and alive.

Afonso Henriques said...

"I agree that Muslims see Israel a a giant thorn in their side and pride. I disagree that they blame Europe. Europe took a different path since the 1973 oil embargo than the US. They see the US as Israel's enabler, not Europe. They agree with the Europeans that the Jews are undesireable and with to be rid of them."

Escape Velocity, you have to know that this is dilusional.
The muslims don't see the Jews as Jews. They see them primarily as an European colonialist people.

And if you don't believe they blame Europe for it than you have not yet heard them scream that "Israel is filled with the people Europe didn't want". Or "Jews, go back to Europe".

They blame the European Civilisation. The only difference between the U.S. and Europe is that the U.S. can still show some muscle and act militarly.

EscapeVelocity said...

There is little difference between the types of Anti Americanism in Latin America and that of Europeans.

They run the full gamut.

Nationalist
Resentment
Leftwing/Ideological
Racist
Jealousy

and even it is cool and in crowd to sneer at America and Americans.

EscapeVelocity said...

Here are the Pew polls, which show that the Latin Americans love Obama just like the Euros.

Why?

Because both think that Obama is anti American, just like them.

LOL!

Agent Chameleon said...

" Ill note here, somewhat amused I must say, that the 1/2 Jew is a high achiever among this group."

Eh?

"Actually, Taiwan is ethnically Chinese, the only thing is that those Chinese people had different political ideas."

Taiwanese are descended from indigenous natives as well as Han settlers that married them, and many have chosen to retain a Taiwanese identity.

"This is a false question, but I'd answer yes anyway."

I was going to argue with this, but I suppose I see how it's a false question. It just seems to me that imperialism never really helps the conquering people; it just exposes them to collapse. At least that seems to be the pattern for many conquering peoples. I don't ever see a successful case of imperialism, which is why I embrace a form of nationalism that rejects empire building. Glad to hear that you share those sentiments.

EscapeVelocity said...

Ive studied Anti Americanism in depth.

Ive learned that there is little reason to pay it much attention. The US will be resented and criticized by all sorts of people, because we have been so actively globally, especially with the Cold War.

If you help one group, then other groups will be slighted. If you dont help another then they fell slighted, though you didnt piss off other groups for helping that particular group.

Sometimes, I feel like the US should just pull it all back to US territory, and let the world enjoy itself free of American meddling.

Methinks, they wouldnt like that world very much, but alas...let them eat cake.

EscapeVelocity said...

Afonso, that Chantal Delsol (reviewed by Berlinski) book, I highly recommend.

It is supra European, and includes the Anglo Nations in large part.

It delves into the the collapse of European Civilizational Confidence, and has interesting things to say.

Afonso Henriques said...

Chamaleon, I will not adress your comment because I totally agree with it. Of course the Nation rules!
But I would argue that the empire is successfull when you can transform your empire into a Nation.
The best example is the American "Imperial" conquest of the West.
Argentina's conquest of Patagonia and Russia's conquest of Siberia seem to be the cases of an imperial drive that was able to integrate the conquered territories (but hardly the different peoples that inhabited there) into the Nation.

Even in the Iberian Peninsula, even today, in the South what is spoken is the languages of the North. Even in Eastern Spain, that has been repressed and does not form an independent state for almost five centuries, even in Valencia, the people talk the language of the Catalans in the North. (although this may be contested because there was never a true reccord of languages of the South of Spain but Mozarabic: A latin language with heavy Arabic influence, mainly to describe the new technics.)

I personally believe that one of the severe wrongs in my country, that make us much harm, is that nowadays we lack the "Northern" carachter we always had, even despite the fact that we gave up our head (Galiza) and soon built a capital the farther to the South as it was possible.
Thus, I strongly symphatise with the people from Northern Portugal and their claims that they are forgotten by the "centralist" State. It is specially so as the North is the motor of the country in so many ways... but that's another topic.

Well, I adressed your comment.

.--------------------------

"Because both think that Obama is anti American, just like them."

Despite the leftism...
If you think the non whites are much discriminated in the U.S., you should go to Latin America. Obama is to many Latin Americans the proove that they too can brake this order. If a black person can "own" the United States, the white devil in America... why can't we take over Mexico, Brazil, Colombia. That's because Latin American elites (friendly with the U.S.) are bad and racist.
Meanwhile, if you think anti Americanism in Latin America is not different from the European one, take in account that:
- The U.S. "controls" Mexico and treats badily the Mexicans.
- The U.S. have created or permitted many civil wars in Central America.
- Th U.S. has prevented Che, Castro, and the leftism in most of the Americas. Many Latin Americans pray to Che as if he was a Catholic Saint.
- The U.S. supported the harsh military right wing dictatorships in the Southern Cone.

It "harmed" people's lives south of the border, in a concrete way. And people do harbour anti American feelings because of that.

"If you help one group, then other groups will be slighted. If you dont help another then they fell slighted"

Through your eyes, you helped Latin Americans from falling into Communism. I agree.
But you see, that is exactly why they harbour anti-American feelings. Your help was the problem.

But yes, I'd support again that American help. I am the one who prefers Pinochet to Salvador Allende. And I am the one who believes that if Chile is a somewhat attractive and Civilised country today it is because Pinochet did not aloud that Chile would be turned into another Cuba.
That does not mean that many Chileans suffered harshly during the dictatorship of Pinochet.

I also think that the world would be better, and anti americanism would be less, if America stuck to the Americas again.

And thank you for your recomendations, Escape Velocity

EscapeVelocity said...

The US also directly intervened in Europe in WW2 and continuing to this day, including pissing off a bunch of people in a personal way, by bombing Serbia, this includes ethnically similar Bulgarians.

I do agree that the US has a longer history with the Latin Americans, but that is it.

We dont control or own Mexico. I wish that the US would take direct control of both Cuba and Mexico as imperial governments.

The Chilean people are much better off for the preservation of the middle and professional classes, and functioning bourgeouis institutions under Pinochet. No doubt about it. Interestingly enough, their current, for the next week at least, president is the daughter of a military officer that was tortured by Pinochet, she was educated in Washington DC after they fled the country, and is a soft Leftist.

The only country in Latin America (barring the Carribean Islands) with any large number of blacks is Brazil.

The US has inserted itself into nasty conflicts worldwide, during the Cold War. Lots of Anti Americanism around because of that....on top of any other gripe, that may exist.

EscapeVelocity said...

Oops! Here is the Pew poll...

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=264

EscapeVelocity said...

I also wanted to expand on something...as regards US actions and policy during the Cold War (and elsewhere). We have a powerful Left in this country, which hamstring efforts, so our record must be seen as somewhat of a hodgepodge, hampered by this 5th column...when trying to make sense out of US Cold War efforts, failures, and non efforts where their maybe should have been effort or better organized efforts, and so on and so forth. Continuity (or incontinuity) of policy and implementation...stuff like that.

Hope that makes sense.

TC said...

TakSei

I just only now saw that you had responded to my comment on March 1st.

What the hell is wrong with you to talk down to me like that and to make totally unsubstantiated accusations concerning me and "my people" (Whites?) and the "poison that has seeped into me"?

Are you quite well?

Takuan Seiyo said...

TC,
I did not mean to offend you, but I detected of a whiff of, let’s say, a gelled anti-Jew mental landscape in your post. And no, I am not quite well. I had just spent five days participating in a discussion thread on another website with a number of people who post here plus some out and out Nazis, all dumping on the Jews in a manner that was revolting. Also on me, for taking the other side of that bet.

I consider deep antisemitism the ultimate toxin to the goals of what this blog is all about. Ditto, such entities as AmRen and other dhimmitude-defying islands. Hence my reaction.

Perhaps I misconstrued your comment and over-reacted. In the future, please be more specific

TC said...

TakSei

Frankly, I don't care how stressed out you are by discussions in other blogs.

If you detect "whiffs" of something or other in people's comments, that predestines you to an existence as Blockwart, my poor friend, but not to a carrer as political essayist.

And, for the record, I will be as "precise" in my comments as I want to be and you will have to live with that.

I have enough people breathing "islamophobe" and "racist" down my neck. I don't need another "protected minority" in my life, calling me anti-semitic!

You are not doing your cause any favors with your hysterical reactions to opinions you dislike.

Takuan Seiyo said...

@TC
I have no "cause" other than my country and my civilization. I presume we share the latter but have opposing view points. To each his own. It’s a free country. Say what you will and leave me be to say what I will. Out.

Chechar said...

@ “I had just spent five days participating in a discussion thread on another website with a number of people who post here plus some out and out Nazis, all dumping on the Jews in a manner that was revolting.”

I guess it’s this entry in my blog.

Tanstaafl said...

Fjordman made an important point that isn't stated often enough:

The ruling oligarchs of the Western world feel no ethnic loyalty whatsoever with other whites. On the contrary, they despise them.

He also correctly pointed out that their agenda is neither suicidal nor accidental.

Then come Seiyo and Agent Chameleon to save us from this line of thought, and redirect blame back where it really belongs: "us" and "nutjobs".

Agent Chameleon writes:

We did this to ourselves, and we will never be able to pull ourselves out of this mess until we sit down and try to understand what led to our suicide

I've thought about it. The first thought that occurs to me is: who is "we"? The second: anyone who thinks about preventing their "suicide" obviously isn't suicidal.

Seiyo writes:

The same case for ethnic cleansing in the interest of group survival is being made by the White Power people with respect to the Jews. And it’s by no means an inherently insane position that ought to be dismissed without considering its genesis. If it is crazy, it’s because the White Cuckoos (“WCs”) falsify history, libel and lie in all that relates to the Jews, and gloss over statistics in order to arrive at their predetermined conclusion. And the conclusion is evil, even if some of the argumentation isn’t.

. . .

The reason Aryan Supremacists and related nutjobs are so detrimental to the cause of redress is that they are unable and unwilling to discern fine points of history, of justice, and of the science of statistics. America has brought the punishment of Black dysfunction on itself through slavery (different colonialism-related causes in Western Europe too much to go into here). White Americans have no right (on any plane of rights) to speak as though they were the Americans and the Blacks are not, when the latter have been here for over 300 years and brought in involuntarily too.

. . .

The Jews did not ask to live in Europe. They were mainly brought there as slaves, in the last 30 years of the 1st century AD. You would be entirely justified to an opinion that Europe made a mistake, it should never have brought Semites to Europe. But you are not entitled to redress that error, if you consider it such, 2000 years after the unsolicited phenomenon took place.

Clearly Seiyo finds it acceptable to libel, lie, and distort history in the interest of scapegoating not only "White Power people", "White Cuckoos", "Aryan Supremacists", and "nutjobs", but also "America", "White Americans", and "Europe".

With friends like this - dictating what "we" must do, who "we" must include, who "we" must exclude, blaming "us" for everything - who needs enemies?

Captainchaos said...

Takuan,

I am the author of the words which you quoted in your 2/28/2010 8:37 PM comment. I did not arrive at my views lightly, nor without trepidation and soul searching. Yet, now, it is my hardened will that the continued existence of my people, as they are, their very being, is not negotiable. It is the solemn duty of every able-bodied White man to fight to the last man if that be necessary to secure our existence as a people. Otherwise, all the generations of our ancestors will have lived for nothing for all the generations to come will not be. And, any White man who puts the interests of an alien people, or some mawkish desire to preserve the final vapors of the failing liberal system he experiences as his 'lifestyle', has betrayed his own people, his blood, as would a groveling cur fit for slavery. We must live, we must have the power of determination of our own fate, Babel must brought down. Life is indeed tragedy is large part, were it not so, yet it is. But still our people must live.

fellist said...

I am surprised and heartened to see such a post at a blog I tend to think of as anti-Islamic more than nationalist. But how seriously do you mean to take the Mohawks as a model?

o/p Bodissey said:

This story is the type to warm the cruel cockles of a conservative’s heart, because it puts the liberal mind into brain-freeze

The right-liberal establishment - the UK’s Conservatives, America’s Republicans etc. - also fumbles here. And the inability of many people in this thread to allow European peoples to distinguish ourselves from Jews suggests many of your readers also suffer a mental block.

Tracey Deer, publisher of The Eastern Door, the local paper and website, says everyone agrees native land is for native people, but the issue is dividing the Mohawk community.

This agreement provides our most opportune entry into the broader political debate. When ‘everyone agrees’ that ‘native land is for native people’ - at least as regards Amerindian, Asian and African peoples - we Europeans have an unassailable moral claim to assert the same right ought apply to us.

As long as different ethnic groups live closely commingled and unassimilated, the tensions leading towards drastic solutions will always be there. Ethnic cleansing is the kinder, gentler alternative to genocide… The policy failures that produced these catastrophes-in-waiting occurred within living memory.

This is false, the problem is age-old. Posters to this thread have provided numerous examples of conflict between European peoples and the alien group historically most present in our societies. Conflicts of interest in such circumstances are a universal and eternal problem. What’s new is that when European peoples (and us only) make a self/non-self distinction we are accused of racism or antisemitism, this because the West’s ruling elite is entirely made up of non-Euros and Euro-deracinated. Predictably, this coalition is supportive of ethnonationalism for non-Euros but opposed to Euro ethnonationalism. The ‘alternative’ Seiyo, Fjordman or Agent Chameleon would establish clearly has the same fundamental problem, privileging others over ourselves.

fellist said...

I hope I am not so late that Agent Chameleon misses this post.

Agent Chameleon said:

Indeed, WNs should not be denying the Holocaust, but instead recognizing how evil the destruction of an ethnic group is...

We need to construct a paradigm where we accept the Holocaust happened and that it does not invalidate white nationalism in the slightest. Rather it reminds us of how important HBD (Human Biodiversity) is, and why nationalism must always be tempered with compassion and understanding, rather than hate and saber-rattling.

TS, what are your thoughts of the American Third Position party? I was excited about hearing of a WN political party, but then was disappointed when finding out that Kevin MacDonald and James Edwards are leading it. It's probably going to be antisemite central.


Whatever the truth of that controversy it does not invalidate our nationalisms - the questions are entirely separate, except for those prosecuting our race-replacement - so why demand a party-line? In a recent show James Edwards pointed out that Geert Wilders demands free-speech in service of truth when it comes to Islam but is silent when it comes to the hundreds of people prosecuted for questioning the conventional wisdom on Germany’s WWII treatment of Jews. Don’t you agree that this complaint is valid? Truth and free-speech are not tools to be manipulated to protect Jewish sensitivities or oppose Islam’s aggression, they are our values and our way of doing things, Jews and Muslims be damned!

[ "There was hope until Jared Taylor made the tent large enough for the firm of Duke & Stormfront." ] I am so mad at him over this.

Duke, like MacDonald and James Edwards are exceedingly politic in their positions. Contrary to hysterical smears they do not ‘blame Jews for everything.’ Their settled positions, whether by design or not, are pretty much morally unimpeachable. They are antisemitic only in the modern Orwellian sense, ie., they demand equal rights with Jews to differentiate themselves, and in ben tillman’s definition: they believe that some conflicts of interests between Jews and others may reasonably be resolved in favour of the non-Jews. This is all they say, and all that is necessary to get them labelled ‘moronic Jew-hating, Holocaust-denying Nazi psycho wannabes.’ Why cleave to these double standards so prejudicial to your own people’s interests?

I have discussed Kevin MacDonald with you before. You admitted not having read his work. I think it’s time you did. As before I’m happy to send you ‘Culture of Critique’ in PDF form and ‘A People that Shall Dwell Alone’ and ‘Separation and its Discontents’ in WORD. Want ‘em?

fellist said...

While recommending MacDonald, I think the best place to start a study of Euro-Jew/Jew-Other relations is the Bible and the Talmud. Read the Talmud online at come-and-hear.com. Also excellent as introductions are Israel Shahak's 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion' and Albert Lindemann's 'Esau's Tears'.