Saturday, February 28, 2009

Groveling at the Altar of Cultural Marxism

Several people have emailed us with a tip about this news story, but Conservative Swede has the most interesting take on the topic:

Now that America has elected Obama, his supporters expect America to be loved across the world. Well, the European Left still hates America to the core, and we even see an increase of the stakes.

He was referring to an article from The Local:

Security Police Probe Södertälje Fires

Three supermarkets were destroyed and a fourth damaged as a wave of arson attacks hit Södertälje in central Sweden in the early hours of Thursday morning.

Security police (Säpo) have been called in to investigate a connection between the attacks and an anti-US extreme left wing group.

“We have classified them all as arson and are working on the theory that they were started deliberately,” said Kia Samrell at Södertälje police.

[…]

An extreme left wing group calling itself Global Intifada claimed responsibility for the December fires and according to reports in the Expressen newspaper, the two Willys stores destroyed on Thursday morning also received warnings from the group.
- - - - - - - - -
“We have not been able to confirm that the group were behind the December fires. But the investigation is not yet completed,” underlined Kia Samrell.

Global Intifada, according to a Sveriges Radio report, has been responsible for dealing out leaflets in Södertälje encouraging the public to make Molotov Cocktails and use them on shops selling American products.

This threat, as yet unverified, has been communicated to the US Embassy in Sweden which considered it of sufficient importance to issue a statement confirming that it had been in contact with Södertälje police. The US authorities advised “caution while shopping and be attentive to suspicious behaviour”.

The US Embassy was refusing to comment on Wednesday’s attacks.

Conservative Swede continues with this analysis:

Three supermarkets set on fire by the “Global Intifada” in Södertälje. The motivation for this is that they are selling American products. We have seen a lot in Sweden, but this is a huge increase of the stakes of anti-Americanism. And just one month after the inauguration of Obama.

The ideological hatred of America (for her post-WWII “crimes”) has been translated into hatred of ethnic Americans, no matter what they do. Much as the ideological hatred of Germany in WWII is translated into ethnic hatred of Germans no matter what they do. And the ideological hatred of the Soviet Union in the Cold War is translated into ethnic hatred of Russians no matter what they do.

This is what the mental map of the West looks like. There’s a lot of hate going around, and there’s no shift in the minds of the haters. And the unalterable hate is not reserved for the groups that are real threats, but for the ones that should be friends or allies.

Mutual euthanasia, in addition to civilizational suicide, that is. And the stronger the “permitted” nationalisms grow, the stronger this ethnic hatred becomes, too.

At some point the American left and center will realize that, Obama or not, they are still equally hated and despised by the European Left. How will they react when they realize this? Will they grovel even more at the altar of Cultural Marxism in hope of receiving love?

CS is right, but I must point out that the Americans he refers to form only one facet of the American character.

Our Europhiles are the runny-brie-and-dry-chablis crowd, the metrosexuals, the sandal-wearing lentil-gobblers, the tree-hugging Volvo-driving denim-and-granola one-worlders. They’re the ones whose legs tingle and hearts melt in adoration over Obama. The Europe that they love is not France or Germany or Denmark or Portugal, but the European Union, the prototype for the coming World Government — the endgame of history from the Left’s point of view.

However, there’s another type of American who holds Europe in lower esteem — assuming that he pays attention to it at all: the Jacksonian. He views the Europeans as limp-wristed pansies — much the same way he views the elites of the East Coast liberal establishment — and takes no interest in Europe’s opinion of America.

The Jacksonians have been quiet in recent years, because times have been good. But when trouble comes to America the Jacksonians emerge — well-armed — and start asserting themselves in public affairs.

The elite Euro-lovers who run the federal government would do well to remember that the Jacksonians considerably outnumber them.

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One notable thing about the Södertälje firebombing is the claim of responsibility by a group called “Global Intifada”. The hard-left anarchist types have appropriated the Arabic term for their own purposes, presumably because of its trendy anti-American cachet.

To the Left, “intifada” means “violent resistance to American and Israeli hegemony”. But that’s not what the Palestinians and the Arabs mean by the term (pdf source):

[The] Palestinian Intifadah [is] seen as a prelude to the great war of liberation and liquidation…

The Intifada is the Beginning of Liberation, Annihilation and Purification

“The Intifada of the people in Palestine is but the beginning of a liberation movement for the annihilation of that evil Zionist colonialism.”

“Our people wanted the Intifada to go on as an enlightening torch… and they shall not withhold their pure blood until the land of peace is purified of the filth of the usurper.”

That is, the intifada is about the annihilation of the Jews and the purification of the lands of the Muslims. It is about the triumph of Islam.

It is not about the triumph of Socialism.

However, there is one goal that the Muslim intifada shares with the Left: the establishment of a single world government. The entire world will submit to Allah. It will constitute a single unified Ummah, and be one nation under Sharia… forever.

26 comments:

Fjordman said...

The media here clearly write in a more positive way about Obama than they ever did about Bush. I hear some people say that the American elites want the USA to become "more European." Frankly, I think they want the USA to become less European. It all depends upon your definition of European. If you are referring to the continent that invented modern capitalism, gave us the Renaissance, the Scientific and the Industrial Revolution as well as Shakespeare, Pasteur, Galileo, Beethoven, Copernicus and Mozart then no, they want the USA to become less European. If you are referring to the increasingly Utopian, statist totalitarian entity called the EU where the white natives are disarmed and legally banned from protesting their own colonization and eradication then yes, they want Americans to become more European.

laine said...

"The ideological hatred of America (for her post-WWII “crimes”) has been translated into hatred of ethnic Americans, no matter what they do. Much as the ideological hatred of Germany in WWII is translated into ethnic hatred of Germans no matter what they do. And the ideological hatred of the Soviet Union in the Cold War is translated into ethnic hatred of Russians no matter what they do."

Conservative Swede's insistence on lumping in the United States and Americans of the twentieth century with two countries and nationalities that committed genocide in the tens of millions within living memory is offensive to the extreme.

The hatred Germans receive seems to have abated and deservedly so since they admitted their crime against humanity, have become pacific and have paid reparations. The hatred Russians receive is proportionately miniscule compared to the greater enormity of their crimes against humanity and their absolute refusal to admit them let alone pay any kind of reparations while continuing to shamelessly saber rattle toward countries they have grievously wronged.

The hatred of America is propagated by the same left wing mentality that excuses the Soviet Union and Russians for much worse crimes. It is powered by bitterness and envy of the better, more humane and more successful country and system. (The present economic troubles are exactly in proportion to the failed system socialism being titrated into what was a winning formula. Marxist Obama has now overwhelmingly poisoned the well).

Con Swede belongs to the above group by virtue of his constant apologia for two nationalities that have actually committed genocide while demeaning the nationality who despite some warts has been the most generous toward others bar none and been condemned in a way no other country is condemned for sometimes pursuing her own interests and making mistakes, not systematically annihilating millions and oppressing hundreds of millions over decades.

This is like seeing equivalence among two mass murderers and a jaywalker or at most a felon. It is a moral sickness.

America haters, please stick to the 20th century and on in your "rebuttals".

Conservative Swede said...

Laine apparently think that I'm a supporter of the Global Intifada, and that my text above was in support of them and cheering them for their America hate. It's an understatement to say that he didn't read very well.

Conservative Swede's insistence on lumping in the United States...

Ehmm, I didn't invent the hate by the left of Americans, OK? If the left hates America more than the Soviet Union or Nazi-Germany, how is that my fault? According to Laine, I'm guilty of a phenomenon for describing it. So if I call the police to report a burglary, that makes me guilty of the burglary, according to this way of "reasoning".

Armance said...

Here we go again...

How many times should it be emphasized that any person who equates the German people with Nazism, Russia with Bolshevism and America with anything from KKK to the neo-cons hasn't understood a word and an iota from what we are living today and why?

"Two nationalities that have actually committed genocide"... The Russians and the Germans, the typically White European nations, historically the most aware Europeans among us. I'm just wondering: why are we accussing our leftist or Islamist enemies for hating us when we have so much self-hatred, even inside the Counterjihad movement, that we can fill an universe?

Armance said...

BTW, the expression two nationalities that have actually committed genocide doesn't remind anyone of the dhmimmi despicable Martti Ahtisaari with his memorable quote "the Serbs are guilty as a people"?

Czechmade said...

"no matter what they do."

Maybe some people know "what they do".

For ex. outside Gernamy more Europeans have a benign view of Germans than some people inside Germany beating the drum. Be realistic. In Holland for ex. the image of Germany is much better than what it used to be 20 years ago. Be just.

Most people in Europe have no clue about America or Russia. For no reason at all they give minus points to US and plus points to Russia.

Conservative Swede said...

Yes, Armance,

Ethnic hate of Germans is the standard example of anti-white racism (what Fjordman calls Caucasiophobia). It grew in our minds from anti-German attitudes and was generalized from that. That knot will not become untied until this post-WWII hate and bullying of Germans is reversed. Effectively, when we attack Germans, in this way, we are attacking ourselves.

There's no difference in principle between hating white people for being white, and hating Germans for being Germans. And the people who cling to the latter will not be unaffected by the first.

Czechmade said...

CS, this is very hypothetical.

Then again, why should be the Germans
some scapegoats of whiteness?
For sure inside Germany - then you blame specific Germans. Go aheaed.

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade,

For sure inside Germany - then you blame specific Germans. Go aheaed

All across Europe the political elite/leadership consists of the marionettes of the current order (compare it with Quislings if you want). Especially so in Germany. Nothing less than perfect compliance with this would be accepted in Germany, exactly because the hate of Germans is the crown of anti-white racism. And because of this climate, the European people pay lip service to this order, once again especially so in Germany, once again for the same reason.

Unlike what you suggest, to criticize a political leadership and a self-hating climate is not the same as ethnic hate of Germans, Russians or Americans. Instead it is its very opposite, and the only way to reverse this suicidal civilizational order.

You seem to suggest that ethnic hate of Germans is valid, and that its prevalence among contemporary Germans is proof that it is so. Why then isn't self-hate among whites valid? It's equally prevalent among whites across the West. If your are going to be consistent you will have to embrace anti-white racism too, using the same argument.

Then again, why should be the Germans some scapegoats of whiteness?

Not scapegoats, standard example! And I use the concept standard example here in the same way as Thomas Kühn when he describes how a paradigm develops. A standard example is the first instance of and idea, it its clearest and most convincing formulation. A model, a pattern of thinking, that is then generalized and repeated.

The de-nazification was spread and applied all across Europe, ending up in guilt over colonization etc. and general white guilt. This didn't exist in Europe before WWII except among left-leaning intellectuals. All sprung from the standard example of Germany as the evil of failed European nationalism, in spite the fact that Hitler never acted more in the interest of the Germans than Stalin did in the interest of the Russians. Both putting themselves and their glorification highest, and seeing their people as expendable tools for their ideological zeal.

More about standard example in the Kühnian sense: In the Aristotelian paradigm a falling stone was a standard example of force-free motion. In order to change to the Newtonian paradigm this standard example had to be thrown out. It was not matter of force-free motion, the stone was affected by the force of gravity. The standard example of force-free motion in the Newtonian paradigm was instead motion in a straight line at constant speed. Newton's laws of motion was generalized from this and other standard examples.

The human mind, science and mythology, grows from certain thought seeds -- standard examples. Anti-white racism grew mainly from anti-German sentiments, a core nut of this mindset, the main standard example. Just follow history from WWII and forward and you can see how it developed. This mindset, this paradigm, cannot be reversed by less then reversing this standard example. As long as this strong an categorical ethnic hate of Germans is around, we will continue in the free fall of civilizational suicide, even if we try to do other things right. As long as ethnic hate of Germans is accepted and lauded, there will also be ethnic hate of Americans. They belong to the very same basic mindset.

Conservative Swede said...

The reason why, in the popular mind, the classic image of Newton is sitting under the tree studying the falling apple, is not that it illustrates a core idea (standard example) of his own paradigm. It's because it illustrates the reversal of the standard example of the previous paradigm, the Aristotelian idea of the falling apple as an example of force-free motion. Something Newton showed to be wrong.

The Newtonian paradigm couldn't grow without first reversing this previous standard example.

Think about what is the corresponding thing to this falling apple in our prevailing societal paradigm!

Homophobic Horse said...

If only you could do the same for your Freud Nietzsche tinged epistemology.

Conservative Swede said...

Why does Chuck Johnson accuse Robert Spencer of genocidal ideas? Is it because Spencer is a German or a Nazi?

From where do these ideas come? Where is it rooted? It's rooted in the standard example of Nazi-Germany, and then generalized to all white people. Ethnic hate of Germans and anti-white racism are intimately tied. As long as this remains the standard example and is not reversed, as long as ethnic hate of Germans is accepted and lauded, people like Chuck Johnson will accuse people like Robert Spencer of having genocidal ideas.

This knot will have to be untied!

Zenster said...

That is, the intifada is about the annihilation of the Jews and the purification of the lands of the Muslims. It is about the triumph of Islam.

It is not about the triumph of Socialism.


Actually, socialism's triumph may well play a central role in any success of the global intifada. It is one of the few truly crippling influences that could sufficiently disable Western civilization to such an extent that something so ghastly as Islam might eventually prevail. The Netherlands and Britain are prime examples.

As a precursor to total disaster, it's really hard to beat socialism. Just ask the average Russian.

laine: Conservative Swede's insistence on lumping in the United States and Americans of the twentieth century with two countries and nationalities that committed genocide in the tens of millions within living memory is offensive to the extreme.

The hatred Germans receive seems to have abated and deservedly so since they admitted their crime against humanity, have become pacific and have paid reparations. The hatred Russians receive is proportionately miniscule compared to the greater enormity of their crimes against humanity and their absolute refusal to admit them let alone pay any kind of reparations while continuing to shamelessly saber rattle toward countries they have grievously wronged.


Good catch, laine. There can be no comparison. Any attempt to mention Europe's unreasoning anti-Americanism and deference to totalitarianism should bear a caveat regarding how odious such a notion is.

Con Swede: This knot will have to be untied!

Due to the knot's Gordian character, its undoing will most likely be Alexandrian in nature. Europe's Vampire Elite leave (or desire) few other options.

Afonso Henriques said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Afonso Henriques said...

I got petrified and very sad when reading the comment of Laine. I'm speachless.

I believe I refrained from commenting this previously because I thought my comment would just sound lame and would already been interiorized by a majority of the people here, and the others? Well, the others would not care less about my comment... Now, I regret I didn't comment.
I wanted to say that we must discern "hate" from... well, what is exactly "hate"? Isn't that "hate", just plain ignorance and mistrust (the latter I think is always justified even when there is no justification)?

So, Laine believes that merely implying, that is, explaining, why some people "hate" America is "offensive to the extreme". What is indeed extreme, but ridiculous extreme is to think that, not to mean extremely extreme deranged and harmfull to every bit of European Civilisation in particular but the whole of the Humanity in potential.

But Laine ceases to be ridiculously extreme to become evil. Evil is the word that cames to mind - "maldosa". To think that an entire people must be hated, like you claim Germans and Russians should or deserve to be, simply hated by something the represntatives of that people did in the past is evil. Why do you need to hate?
I understand that it may be usefull to demonise a people but to simply "hate"? Especially when there is no war? I cannot understand it. Do you hate muslims or "Hispanics"? I don't. I don't see any reason for such an hatred.

I only wonder why you don't hate Jews as well, once Trotsky, Marx or Lenine were Jews and were the wheels behind the Russian Revolution that instaured State Communism that you so desperateley want as an excuse to hate, simply hate, the entire Russian people.
That would not be P.C. enough, right? That shows not only flaws on your logic as it shows, and it's worst, a lack of courage form you. Who's falling into the propaganda "propagated by the same left wing mentality that excuses the Soviet Union..."?

WHY DON'T YOU DO A FRICKING TRIP TO THE BALKANS or Lebanon? So that you can cease stop playing around with the decadent state of Western European derived societies and look to our awfull future?

Please Laine, do not lecture us about "Moral Sickness".
Not when you support free hatred of Germans and Russians SIMPLY because once, they stood up against America. Do you hate Japanese and Mexicans as well? Hm... And here, between us only, you DO NOT hate these last two because they are not white EUROPEANS. Come on, you have no bowls to hate those who due to the "left wing mentality that excuses the Soviet Union..." shall not be hated: Non Europeans! That's why you don't hate Japanese and Mexicans! You don't even hate Jews!

And even Jews hate themselves (joke)!!!

If you were not American, you would be the first to hate America by your own standards... how ironical!

Conservative Swede said...

OK Zenster & Laine,

Ethnic hate of Americans is unfair, so therefore it does not exist. OK, I'll deny its existence then. Happy now?

Conservative Swede said...

So do Americans really care about what the rest of the world think of them? Yes, I think they do.

I'm sure everyone remembers together with me the reactions after 9/11. Thanks to the Internet the Americans where now reading news papers from around the world, they could read blogs and comments in forums from Europeans and others. I can say that virtually every American I encountered back then, with a sound right-wing stance, were in shock over what was written about America and Americans. Surely they had heard politicians and leftist activists before spewing hate at America. But now through the Internet they could see that the majority of the ordinary people in Europe and around the world hated their guts. They could see how very deep this hate was, how despised they were, and attitudes ranging from how they deserved 9/11, to how it was understandable that it happened to the USA.

It's of course from the anger and bitterness, like this, that the idea of the "punishment" of withdrawing the US troops from Europe comes from (which we hear every now and then from Americans e.g. in this forum). "We will not come over and save your ass next time!" they typically say, exposing their hurt feelings. (And I say thank you, thank you.)

In fact, America's whole foreign policy is built on caring about what other peoples of the world think of Americans. And this is also precisely what is abused. I recommend you all to read Weaponizing Civilization: The New Way of War, by Raymond Kraft:

There's never been a leading empire in the history in mankind that has been as squeamish about what others think of them as America. "Are we nice enough? Are we likable?" This the guiding principle of the US foreign policy. Look at it! It's the only way to make any sense of US foreign policy. Look at Iraq. The mess there is all a function of this obsession with niceness. America is still trying to figure out a way to deal with the situation in Iraq that is 100% nice and cannot be criticized from any possible direction. It's gonna be democracy, peace and magic. It ended up as a mess, and they are still around not knowing what they are doing there. And that's the result of the American right-wing in action. The result of the left-wing we are just about to see.

Haven't you heard from so many Americans how deeply ashamed they have been, in front of the rest of the world, to have Bush as the president? And how relieved they were to get Obama instead? And how they think that there is some global unification process going on now with Obama? Bush had destroyed everything, starting with denouncing Kyoto, then arrogantly starting a "unilateral" war in Iraq etc. America and Americans were not nice, and couldn't be likable under the horrible Bush. But now that the horrible Bush has been replaced by the Messiah all this has changed! Right? Well, my point is no it hasn't. Americans are hated, by the Euro-left and many others, simply for being Americans, for their ethnicity, no matter what they do.

islam o' phobe said...

In addition to the Baron's description of Jacksonians here is a clarifying article written nine years ago by Walter Mead, The Jacksonian Tradition.

Sample quote:

While the Jacksonian believes in hard work, he or she also believes that credit is a right and that money, especially borrowed money, is less a sacred trust than a means for self-discovery and expression. Although previous generations lacked the faculties for consumer credit that Americans enjoy at the end of the twentieth century, many Americans have always assumed that they have a right to spend money on their appearance, on purchases that affirm their status. The strict Jacksonian code of honor does not enjoin what others see as financial probity. What it demands, rather, is a daring and entrepreneurial spirit. Credit is seen less as an obligation than as an opportunity. Jacksonians have always supported loose monetary policy and looser bankruptcy laws.

Contrast this uniquely daring and individualist conception of entrepreneurship with recent comments by Peter Hitchens pertaining to pre-socialist British ideas of fiscal responsibility:

[A reader] wants me to write about the 'Credit Crunch'. But what would I say that others have not done? I am certainly not an economist, not that people who are economists seem to be able to agree on what Like most sensible people, I have known for years that our economy was based on nothing ( as I used to say, 'except selling cappuccinos and mobile phones to each other'). This wasn't expert knowledge, just common sense. But everywhere I turned I was told by 'experts' that my fears were groundless.

My fears, as it happens, were based upon the very moral precepts and virtues which people such as Gertrude Himmelfarb place at the centre of Victorian prosperity and reform - a loathing of debt, a belief in honest dealing and living within your means. I had to watch as these values were derided and discarded.


These ideas have to some extent survived and live on in former British colonies such as Singapore.

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong’s Chinese New Year Message 2009

Sample quote:

3. To tackle this unprecedented economic crisis, we are for the first time seeking the President’s approval to draw on our reserves. This is a major decision, which the Govern­ment has thought over very carefully. Our reserves are a key asset for Singapore. We have built them up patiently over the years, so that in a critical situation we have the wherewithal to mount a vigorous response. The present crisis is clearly such a moment. By using our reserves for the two special schemes, we are making clear that we intend to respond to the crisis decisively and with all means at our disposal.

4. We are able to do this unlike most other countries, because we have prudently saved and invested our surpluses over many decades. We must therefore maintain these critical instincts. When things return to normal, we must resume our habit of putting something aside in the reserves whenever we can. Then when we next face a serious crisis, which is bound to happen one day, we can again meet it with confidence.

Baron Bodissey said...

Ah, but Conservative Swede, once again you were only dealing with views expressed by the cohort of effete PBS-watching internet-using elite Americans who paid attention to the opinions of Europeans.

The vast bulk of Americans paid (and pay) no attention to European opinion.

You would need to hang out for a while in Lynchburg, Viginia, or Tulsa, Oklahoma to get a sense of what the rest of America is like.

You are working from a small and not randomly-chosen sample of Americans. As I have often said, you do not understand the average gap-toothed slope-browed NASCAR-lovin' redneck-American. These are my people -- I live amongst them and know them well.

They are in the majority in this country. The problem is that many of them do not bother to vote.

islam o' phobe said...

Peter Hitchens also praised Pat Buchanan, who is mentioned in the Mead article as a prime example of a Jacksonian:

I might add that it seems to me that Pat Bucahanan's intelligent and thoughtful arguments against free trade might also have helped us avoid the mess we are now in, where price was all and so, in the space of 20 years, every British manufacturer of everything familiar in my life was put out of business or taken over by a foreign competitor - whereas in my childhood there was hardly a thing in the house that wasn't made, or grown, or raised, by my fellow-countrymen.

Conservative Swede said...

Baron,

I covered many different sections of Americans in what I wrote, let alone those who do not vote, who definitely do not influence your foreign policy. The actions of the Republicans in Iraq has been all about niceness and being likable. I recommend reading the article by Raymond Kraft I linked above.

Of course you have people living on the country side which are different, so we have in Sweden too. But no matter whether you have had Democrats or Republicans in government, the goal of the foreign policy has to be liked and accepted by he rest of the world. More and more for every decade. And this is why it fails.

Regarding the hope of the increase of the likability of America across the world, with the election of Obama, I have the many moderates who voted for him in mind. The hardcore supporters do not care of course, they "know best" already. You will find even centric Americans who didn't vote for Obama, who think that with Bush gone, that the image of America across the world will have improved. But as I showed above, the hate remains.

laine said...

Con Swede (and Alfonso) are the ones with a reading problem i.e. comprehension as they busily erect straw men to annihilate instead of my original criticism.

There was no denial of the hatred toward Americans in my post (strawman #1). Zenster grasped this by agreeing that this hatred is unreasoning i.e. no reason for it anywhere near what exists for the Germans or Russians.

There was no hatred for Germans or Russians in general in my post (strawman #2). I merely observed that hatred towards Germans was understandable given their history but had JUSTIFIABLY subsided and gave the reasons.

I also observed completely correctly that Russians have never received a fraction of the hatred that Germans have received for their major and Americans for their minor crimes and that they (Russians) are in addition completely unrepentant and still truculent toward surrounding countries they have previously oppressed.

None of this expresses any personal emotion for any of the three, merely an observation of how the leftward tilting world excuses massive crimes by leftist regimes such as Russians were under the Soviets while slamming those on the right for minor misdemeanors like the Americans. It is only because the Left managed to shunt Nazi (National Socialist) crimes into the right wing column that these got criticized to the extent they were.

Con Swede's English comprehension is good enough that his misrepresentation of my comment derives from some other motivation. He drew an indefensible moral comparison among three hatreds, two of which are well deserved based on documented history and the third undeserved, then gets in a lather about his beloved Russians and Germans again over things that I did not say.

If Zenster didn't make an appearance occasionally, I would be totally discouraged by how Con Swede is allowed to run this particular con over and over with little opposition.

As for Alfonso, there may be a language problem there. The comment "you support free hatred of Germans and Russians SIMPLY because once, they stood up against America" is simply incoherent, made up of whole cloth as it cannot be related to my comment in any way. And BTW, Alfonso, I'm not American. Unfortunately, I do not speak Portuguese, but I'll simplify my original comment:

Germans committed genocide and received massive hate which is abating since they apologized, paid reparations, and no longer threaten anyone.

Russians committed 10 times the genocide and received minor hate, never admitting the extent of their crimes, never regretting them, never paying reparations and still threatening and undermining surrounding democracies.

America did not commit genocide in the past century but is massively hated.

Con Swede's moral equivalence about these three hatreds is offensive to fair minded people who can tell the difference between a mass murderer and a jaywalker.

In fact it's a leftist characteristic to go one step further and embrace murderers as victims themselves while attacking those who don't agree to look away from their crimes.

Conservative Swede said...

Laine,

Your whole argument is based on a moral equivalence that never took place, and when that is pointed out there is the characteristic complaints about straw men. Where did I suggest that the ethnic hate of Americans is fair? Where did I suggest that the acts of America is at all comparable with Nazi-Germany or the Soviet Union? Of course I didn't. It's all made up by you. There was no moral equivalence. Ethnic hate of Americans simply exists as much, and is as unalterable, as shown with above example, as the one of Germans and Russians. But by all means, shoot the messenger for saying so.

There problem, apparently, is instead that you consider ethnic hate of Germans and Russians valid. And that's your beef here.

You even have the stomach to describe my writing as being of "leftist characteristic" as if I shared the ethnic hate of Americans with the Global Intifada. Obviously dialog is not possible here, and you want to remain in a fantasy world about what I actually said. Which is the total opposite of what I really said. With so much hate going around, dialog is severely blurred.

Conservative Swede said...

I also wonder about Laine's two last paragraphs: Are ethnic Russians or Germans "mass murderers"? Is criticizing ethnic hate of Russians and Germans to "embrace murderers as victims"?

And let's reconnect this to Armance's quoting of Martti Ahtisaari saying "the Serbs are guilty as a people". So consequently, by criticizing this ethnic hate of Serbs one is embracing murderers as victims, according to this very prevalent mindset.

laine said...

These are Con Swede's words in the original post (added capitalization):

"The ideological hatred of America (for her post-WWII “crimes”) has been translated into hatred of ethnic Americans, no matter what they do. MUCH AS the ideological hatred of Germany in WWII is translated into ethnic hatred of Germans no matter what they do. And the ideological hatred of the Soviet Union in the Cold War is translated into ethnic hatred of Russians no matter what they do.

This is what the mental map of the West looks like. There’s a lot of hate going around, and there’s no shift in the minds of the haters."

Now he denies that he made any kind of moral equivalence among the three countries or their "haters". And no admission ever that what the 3 countries actually DID (hatred...no matter what they do) was significantly different.

Let everyone judge for himself, particularly those familiar with CS's America-denigrating, Germany and Russia elevating pattern.

Natalie said...

Personally, I think this whole argument is silly. It seems to be yet another Russophiles vs. Russophobes argument--people sure have strong feelings about Russia. Conservative Swede was simply pointing out facts: there's a lot of hatred directed towards America simply because it is America, as there is towards Russia and Germany for no good reason. My guess is that certain people just do not like the fact that Conservative Swede said something about the Russians that wasn't bad.

And as for America never have committed genocide, I disagree. Our involvement in the Balkans in the 1990s constitutes genocide, in my opinion. Maybe not on the scale that other countries have committed it, but it was still genocide against the Serbian people, and is a stain on our great country's history.