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At the siege of Vienna in 1683 Islam seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe.
We are in a new phase of a very old war.
Monday, December 01, 2008
Skanderbeg, Warrior King of Albania
Yesterday I posted an email from Albkrist, who wrote to tell us about the Christian heritage of Albania. To supply further information, he sends this video about Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbe, Warrior King of Albania:
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62 comments:
What might be really interesting - to find out more about Kemal Pasha Atta Tuerk, who was half Albanian and half Macedonian. In theory you have one more anti-islamic hero: a guardian spirit of modern Turkey. (the only problem is it would insult the concept of turkishness...which is quite adamant...and not many European officials would dare to dismantle it under the code of something Albanian and facing progressing islamisation of Turkey)
Atta Tuerk did not live or grow in Albania propre. His relationship to islam was however more than negative. He was in a position to de-islamize Turkey much more than any non-muslim could imagine to do.
Could you find out more about his realism and staunch anti-islamic views through his Albanian fathers influence or something else? Did he speak Albanian?
Did he feel part of Albanian heritage?
The Turks have little idea about Albanians, so it will remain marginal for them...but you could find out.
In modern Turkey he gets accused of being a part of a Jewish/masonry conspiracy. Of homosexuality as well. But the issue of having an Albanian father gets no further publicity. It might be a clue however.
I know the Albanian loyalty to Ottoman Empire was always very shallow. But receiving priviliges was also not against the spirit of the Albanians. Did the Albanian catholics ever pay a jizya?
There is also the Northern neighbour - Monte Negro, which was never ruled by Ottomans directly...with an Albanian minority too.
Some crazy Turks claim nowadays that Atta Tuerk turned Turkey into a second Jewish state. You might claim that modern Turkey is a sort of Albanian conspiracy helping thus the Jews with lot of irony and good PR for Albania. Think of it geopolitically. (It would be possible only if you stick to the facts.)
I understand who Skanderbeg is. My question for Albkrist is how the Muslim Albanians relate themselves to this warrior king: do they consider him a national hero too? Are they taught in schools about the past of Albania, including the fights of this brave warrior? Do all the Albanians view him as a hero?
Wow Chezchmade, just wow.
Continue to dream with an European Albania, an European Turkey and before you blink an eye, you will be celebrating an "European" Saudi Arabia.
Hey, why not an Arabian Europe? It is the same, right?
If Albanians are that "great", why was there no "insurgency" against the UCK. Maybe the UÇK had no Albanians at all...
If you want to play with Youtube, search Christian Albania, Muslim Albania, and Great Albania. You will know that the next thing we'll hear about, evolving SERIOUS jihad in Europe instead of the clown-ish thing that is happening in the West today, will be the Sandjak/Novi Pazar.
And the Great Muslim Balkanic State continues to grow with the help of the whole muslim world and a hungry 70 million strong Turkey:
We have the muslim half os Serbia;
Albania;
Kosovo;
Eastern Macedonia;
20% of miniscule Montenegro;
10% of Bulgaria;
And an increasing number of immigrants in Greece.
I'd call this the ...ation of Europe, I don't know...
And the Great Muslim Balkanic State continues to grow with the help of the whole muslim world and a hungry 70 million strong Turkey:
Don't forget the invaluable help of the EU, the US and NATO. My special thanks for creating Bosnia, Kosovo and their constant sympathy for the Turks in Cyprus over those intolerant Greeks who stubbornly refused for centuries to be completely exterminated by the Turks.
It seems the aim of the politicians in Brussels and Washington is to perfect the work and to continue the legacy of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans. One step further is to open the gates of Europe (of Vienna) for 70 million Turks: practically, the sultans' dearest dream will come true. The Ottoman European Union without a shot.
We don`t want turkey in europe, it is a real threat to europe if europe will continue negotiations with them.
Turkey conquested costandinople (todays istambul) with sword, and that part of euro-turkey belongs to todays greece not to turkey.
Turks are a threat to Europe as they was before 500 years.
Albanian --
You're new to GoV, so here's the word on our rules...
Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum. Your comment violated the last of these rules. We keep a PG-13 blog, and exclude foul language, explicit descriptions, and epithets. This is why I deleted your comment.
Use of asterisks is an appropriate alternative.
----------------------
Albanian said...
Armance
Yes, in Albania everybody loves skanderbeg. His statue is all over albania, the tirana central square is named after him and there is a huge statue of him there. In many other capitals is the same, i Rome in Skopje, also in pristina. His arms are in Vienna today. Albanians all know that him fought turks and islam. Nobody has nothing to say about it. Everybody accept it. Dont forget that in Albania are living 30 % Christian Descendant since the begining of times. So this 70 % so called muslims are not like that at all they are at most Atheist or convertet to christians. And they love skanderbeg as we do.. Ok there are a minorance of motherf*****s but there are our enemies too like in every country are enemies.
Regards
Afonso,
the weakness of Turkey consists in the fact that Atta Tuerk was not at all a Turk. There are millions of people in Turkey with various backgrounds hidden under Turkish names. Many of them are quite comfortable with our views.
So a little research in Atta Tuerks
Albanian background might yield something new.
Hitler was also greek right??
Cause all you do is take the heroes of other countries like you did with aleksander the great and many others..
Contradictions abound, so, what if anything, explains the extraordinary enthusiasm of the Kosovo Albanians in torching churches and monasteries, including those built before Skanderbeg was even born?
As far Albania is concerned my feelings are in disaray. An ethnic Albanian state is the only long term stable solution, but i do understand serbian and macedonian(bulgarian rednecks) position. The ethnic state as proposed at the end of WWI did work, the causes for WWII and after that the third balkan war in an ethnic sense were that germany was ignored when the maps were drafted; so italy got south tyrol, austria was banned to join germany, the polish corridor went to poland (but Oppeln stayed in Germany!) Alsace-Lorraine went to France, Sudeten to Czechoslovakia, a german city Pressburg became the capital of Slovakia. All of that made more easier to people like Adolf Hitler rise to power.
The third Balkan war also has its roots on the First balkan and WW, if Serbia had gave what it promised to Bulgaria Turkey would not be on Constantinople today, Macedonia would be an integrant part of Bulgaria. By the way the less bloddy secession from Yugoslavia were Slovenia and Macedonia who had not sizeable serbian minorities. Bosnia and Croatia who were an ethnic fantasy flamed . Macedonia flames were the albanians live, even in Eire and Spain the situation is the same. A stable country is a homogenous country. Give Albanian land to Albania. Make her economy suffer if it protects jihadists and they will learn quick.
It seems to me that both Turks and ancient Greeks were Civilisations.
Of course Alexander was Greek because he was/is accepted by Greeks as such and because he was part of the Greek/Helenic Culture/Civilization.
I would say also that every muslim in South Eastern Europe is a Turk because they have stuck to Turkish culture / Islamic Civilisation which is painly difficult to conciliate with the European one. They made a choice.
Albanian, you claim there are 30% Christians in Albania. Let's cut the bullshit, I think it is pretty obvious that Albania is a muslim oriented country. So, why do you Christians alow muslims to be "part of your own"? Why will you continue attacking Serbia and Greece while allying with Albanian muslims?
I think that you have capitulated, can you understand me? The Troyan Horse has deeply penetrated Albania. Now it's kind of difficult to consider you Europeans, especially because there are no great frictions between the Christians and the muslims like in Lebanon, for instance. Someone said that the religion of Albanians was Albanianism, and that's okay. But, what is Albania's Civilisation? I think we all know the answer...
At the individual level, I support you but in the pratical world, Albania is not... you!
Czechmade,
Turkish is a faux ethnicity. Atatturk was an Ottoman. Turkey is the core, remodelated, weaker version of the Ottoman Empire. A non European Empire that should have never been aloud to conquer even Constantinople or Cyprus.
The Turks of Turkey are themselves more assimilated Europeans than Turks... So, Turkish, Ottoman, (muslim) Albanian, or any other of that kind in those regions is, for me, a descendent of the Ottoman Empire. The only State that really descends from the Ottoman Empire is modern day Turkey. So, all those muslims are Ottoman, that is, Turks. I don't think it is difficult to understand this or that I am wrong. You cannot have a viable Nation where some belong to a Civilisation and others to another one. If that is the case, there are no loyalties between the people. Then, there are not one people but two peoples, two ethnicities.
But I also believe you can disagree because I believe you are somewhat of a multiculturalist.
Ataturk, is perhaps the easiest Turk to understand. Secular and possibly an atheist to boot. He was a pragmatic nationalist first and a muslim 10th and if the Greeks had not jerked his chain being encouraged by Lloyd George they might still be living on the Turkish mainland instead of having to be evacuated. He won his spurs at the defense of Galipoli and stabilized the disintegrating Turkey at the end of the First world war. He then started to secularize Turkey gave Turkey a western alphabet baned the fez and the veil. Moved the capital too Ankara and tried to drag Turkey into the 20th century. His problem like Cromwell's was that he was dealing with a rumbustious cantankerous religious population who knew very well their rights but were unable to tolerate other peoples rights souds familiar . Like Cromwell he tended to be a little heavy handed when it came to maintaining the peace. His attitude to women was very western I think his adopted daughter became the first female fighter pilot in the world. His problem was that he liked his whiskey and cigarettes too much , If he had kept off those he most likely wouldn't have croaked of cirrhosis of the liver in 1938 . He only held the reigns of power for about 20 years if that, he needed another 20 years to get his reforms accepted. His power base the military have kept his ideas burning bright , which is one of the reasons why there have been so many coups. It is not so much that they are anti democracy just pro secular. I am certain he would be turning in his grave now if he saw what was happening to Turkey now. You don't get many Muslims saying Science is the only true guide in life.
Rocha,
"Sudeten (????)to Czechoslovakia, a german city Pressburg (??? or Hungarian ehm? or Slovak??) became the capital of Slovakia"
How old is "Sudeten"? Not really old, since a German called Jesser invented this term in 1901. How to draw the map of "Sudeten"? You count majority German speakers under Austrian administration 1906 and get lot of inconsistent spots and tiny lines along the borders or bulging shapes, disconected of course. Many of the speakers maybe also Jews and Czechs. It does not matter. Even Swiss and Dutch setlled there.
On the other hand Czech kingdom is one of the most stable political units in Europe. You can see it from the moon - natural mountain borders - our defence. Then the Mexicans started coming and settling there. They worked and farmed . Why not. Much much later they declared something.
The rumour you can hear until today. You can run with a mike around the world and create Sudeten as you like.
The Greek fate was sealed the moment they believed the alliance lies. It would be worse even under Atatürk, armenian style would not be by 1821, 1881 and 1913. Sevres could have turned Smyrna a haven for the Anatolian Greeks. Cyprus was not much Turkish but IT WAS INVADED anyway. Back to Albanians did you know that much of the 1821 Greek territory was Albanian populated? The Albanians in Greece were called Arvanites (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites ) and were assimilated mostly.
The loaylty divisions in Ottoman Empire were drawn on purely religious lines.
I have no idea what would be good for Turkey now. Let the people speak without fear. Extreme fragmentation calls for extreme unification. But that is not a freedom, it is quite artificial...
Turkey received many many refugees in its shrinking empire. Imagine - forgetting the mythology - that only 20% are somewhat real Turks.
That would be funny.
In Ottoman Empire the term "Turk" was despicable and insulting.
Czechmade ,3,123,000 germans lived there so it existed like it or not. I don't believe in land frontiers, only in ethnic/cultural frontiers. Sudeten was German in untill 1945 then the Beneš decrees changed it all. Now it is Czech because Czechs live there. Same in Poland. That's the reason for your stability and the reason for french instability. Please note that ethnicity is really two things race/culture so an american christian black is an american but a white morrocan-french is not a french. Just explaining in case you all think i'm a racist.
Same with Poland? You are blissfully ignorant. The Poles did not want that territory, but they were moved there
from their eastern territories. They hated sitting suddenly in Silesian (sorry German) houses.
The areas in your political fiction in "Sudeten" were mixed. What you call suddenly "German" were people called throughout history as "Boehme" speaking often both Czech or German. The Boehme agenda was for century the same and for ex. Austrians executed German and Czech speakers for their rebellion regardless of your new ethnicity map.
They were distinct in culture from Reichsdeutsche generally and were not accepted as real Germans in Germany.
In mixed areas the German speakers and Czech speakers routinely spoke both languages and had no problems.
The real problem makers lived further in the mountains. They forced their agenda like jihadis on the nominal muslims.
After shameless Munich treaty the areas were ethnically cleansed or
the Czechs kept without permission to use Czech as untermenschen. Those claiming still not to be "German" did not go to fight Russians.
Your Sudeten ghost was "German" from 1938-45 reinforced by other Germans forcefully resettled by Hitler in Stalin style. So your 7 years Sudeten is rather nazi than racist creation
- unknowingly.
200 000 Sudeten made Boehme died on the Eastern Front. Jewish Germans or German Jews as well Czech Jews or Jewish Czechs died in camps.
The remaining state was a cripple looted by Hitler. Even Hitler did not treat your Sudeten as equal and
did not fulfill the expectation of the "German" natives of Bohemia and Moravia.
Many bilingual individuals might claim both and did so according to the political situation. The land frontiers you do not believe in ran through their stomachs and livers.
Unknowingly you promote Sudetenislamistans in the West.
Nowadays the Vlams and Dutch farmers buy land and settle here.
Do you propose in future annexetion of their newly acquired lands to Holland and North Belgium?
If you preach disloyalty of these people, why not the disloyalty of the Western muslims?
Do you accept Jews speaking Yiddish as Germans? Can you further dissect the identities of your bulk of 3.123.001,83752 "Germans". How many Jews, mixed families, Czechs using more or only German?
What about two brothers, one declared to be German the other Czech? On the ground you get a real comedy instead of a serious solution.
One more intellectual exercise you can enjoy - count Poles and Czechs now living in Germany (many refugees from recent past! with G.citizenship). There is no such minority. So I am potentionally a German too even now, but a German here is a recognized German minority regardless of his German skills. I do not know of any procedure to become a Czech here ethnically. I can declare freely however to be an Eskymo.
To be a Conswede Devine German, it was enough to produce an evidence of a German granma without speaking any German. You got your papers very fast. Imagine a Mongol with a German granma!
First of all I want to thank Albkrist for writing his email to the Baron. Secondly I want to thank the Baron for publishing the information provided by Albkrist. This is what this site is all about: widening the perspectives.
Thirdly I want to thank Afonso for providing links with data, in the other thread, providing a reality check. The most interesting thing though is that the same Wikipedia article linked by Afonso supports important clams by Albkrist:
During the Ottoman occupation, according to Ottoman data, the majority of Albanians were of Muslim affiliation (Sunni and Bektashi). However, after Independence, decades of State Atheism which ended in 1991, brought a radical decline in religious practice in all traditions. Today in Albania there are twice more churches than mosques and the majority of the population are either atheist or agnostic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Albania
So it's quite possible and even likely that Albkrist's description is true, even though his defense of it was false: that the description of Albania as Muslims would be Serbian and Greek propaganda. The truth is simply complex as indicated by the quote and Wikipedia article above. Likewise Albkrist's focus on Kosovo Albanians being 50% Christians omits the fact that the Muslims there are quite far-going in radical Jihadism, having burnt down most of the Churches there. Quite the opposite picture as the one described in the quote above, where there are twice as many churches as mosques in Albania proper.
I will keep on listening to you Albkrist. However keep your head cool and remember that most people here know very little of the country Albania. You will need to provide details and examples to paint the picture. Unfortunately this has turned into a forum of mudslinging whenever people's myths are challenged. But even if it is the hotheads that are most visible in the threads of GoV, the majority of the people reading are receptive to good arguments and interested in widening their perspectives.
So keep the information coming. Some of the things you have said I have dismissed, but you made me interested. I want to hear more. Keep in mind also that this is a site that is generally pro-Serbian. It doesn't gain you any points to attack things as Serbian propaganda, especially when it's not true (it might look so from your local perspective, but it's still not true).
I do not find it at all unlikely that the description given by Albkrist is correct, that in spite of being nominally 70% Muslim that in effect Islam is very weak there. For sure Communism never provided a fertile breeding ground for religion. And Islam is so anti-human that whenever people find a safe escape from it they will take it.
And neither is it unlikely that there would be a stark difference between the Kosovo Muslims and the Albania Muslims, where the Kosovo Muslims have been rallied into Jihad by the situation of war. Or maybe rather: the radical Muslims have taken over and dominate the community, but that's how it always happens of course.
Still this means of course that with so many nominal Muslims in Albania proper, that there is a latent threat in that. A rather big one. So even if the description of Albkrist and that Wikipedia article is true, it will take pretty strong and good leadership in Albania in order for there not to grow radical Jihadism from among the large segment of nominal Muslims in their country. The real test comes when a larger conflict situation appears. Quite as in Kosovo, and it didn't go well there. The safest way to save Albania permanently would be to have the majority of the nominal Muslims converting to Christianity.
It's not an easy situation. However, Albkrist has helped nuancing our picture of Albania and helped us seeing that there is indeed hope.
"Nowadays the Vlams and Dutch farmers buy land and settle here.
Do you propose in future annexetion of their newly acquired lands to Holland and North Belgium?"
Why not, Luxmbourg is 30% Portuguese and counting... If the population of Luxembourg in two generations becomes predominantly Portuguese or mixed Portuguese, do you think they will continue to be a "Germanic" Nation?
"They were distinct in culture from Reichsdeutsche generally and were not accepted as real Germans in Germany."
Funny.
What was the opinion of those German Sudetelanders? Did they wanted to join the Reich? Were they not distabilising Czechoslovakia regardless of all the especial rights the Czechslovakians conceeded to them?
And by the way, weren't Czechs closer to Bavarians than Bavarians are to... say, the people of Dortmund? Or Hamburg? How come you now recognise the "German Nation"?
How come the Germans in Sudeteland are not "real Germans" if the Czechs are so "Germans as the Bavarians and Austrians"?
Czechmade, you have such a nice homogeneous safe country with lots of potential. I hope I am wrong, but you will be schocked by what the multiculturalism you seem to "tolerate" will do to your country in the next years.
Remember I said Czechia was a bridge? I bet Praga will be the firt multicultural city of this new Slavic Europe...
"If you preach disloyalty of these people, why not the disloyalty of the Western muslims?"
I think the BNP is right. Those muslims are more often than not victims of multiculturalism. You cannot demand loyalty just because. Communism should have tought you that. The European Union, probabily will.
Conservative Swede,
I have nothing with Serbia. But as you said, i want my stories to be believed as the stories of the serbian.
Did you see that comment (that skanderbeg is Greek), i can`t communicate with that guy cause it`s provocation and i don`t want to go further. Do you know that all Christians in Albania supports Greece, but they want to stole either our christian identity figures. This is unfair.
And with Serbia, we Albanians have nothing against them. But the situation is degenerating cause of the politics. They show us anger and hate, and we can`t stay and watch them. My point on all my discussion is to give you as many materials that verifies our origin and the will of many people here( that is go west civilization , so go to Christianity). And when i say that there are 30% christians, i mean it. We are 30% fundamental Christians, that has fight and will fight to protect and propagate Christianity
Check this
About catholics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9KB8hmvAJ0
and about christians in general
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuPorwdIEMc
There are many other there, you will see some radical islamic comment there but just ignore them, they are at most from macedonia and kosovo.
Conservative Swede,
"I do not find it at all unlikely that the description given by Albkrist is correct, that in spite of being nominally 70% Muslim that in effect Islam is very weak there."
In my opinion, it means nothing. What it means is that those people identify (even if loosely) with islam. And because of that, they will be tempted to be on the islamic side every time something happens.
(I wouldn't also dismiss the video by the Greek guy and would recommend study of the Albanian Nation. I've seen pretty contradictory informations about Albania.)
The thing is, those muslim youth gangs all across Europe don't do what they do because they have a strong faith in Allah. They probabily don't go to the mosque very often, drink alcohol and have non religious lives. They do what they do and use islam as a noble excuse to it. They are anti-European, NOT BECAUSE they are islamic believers, but BECAUSE they identify with islam and their islamic cultures and hate/love/envy/hate Europe.
In Southern Italy, the Godfathers all believe in Christ and Jesus, they all wear a golden cross around their necks and I do not doubt their Catholicism. However they are mafia thugs. (Some with much class, though)
My point is, once the non religious Albanians will identify and take sides with the muslim whenever the situation demands it... and once the Christian Albanians will identify as Albanians and as such tend to support the Albanians... I wouldn't count with Albania as an European Nation.
But we have to diferentiate individuals from groups, and that's another rather long story.
Albanian,
Can you please tell me two things I am very interesting in knowing:
In your National History or Mythology, when was the first Albanian State created? I think you believe in the Ilyrian theory of the Albanians, right? If so, please tell me when the Albanian Nation apears, not Ilyrian people, but Albanian already. Thank you.
And once we are at it, what unites Albanians? Is it language? What is it that makes you different from Greeks, Serbians and other Balkanic people? How can you sustain a State where religious diversity is so great?
Are there Christian derived parties in Albanian politics? Because from here, it seems that only the muslims have had a voice since the fall of Communism...
Thank you for your answers.
Czechmade turn off your tribalism and just look AT ANY LINGUISTIC MAP from the XIX and early XX century. Even the more exact of these maps show the sudenten to be German what was not the case of the Polish corridor. Stalin "cleaned" Belarus and Ukraine of their polish minority BUT expanded Polands homeland by tranferring those to Silesia, if they liked it i don't know, the germans didn't. The ORIGINAL Poland eastern frontier is very close to the actual, CURSON LINE is the name. As for sudeten being mixed i don't doubt it, they just got a german majority, sometimes fat beyonf 70%. That is past and i'm not trying to revise it. What i'm telling is don't repeat these same mistakes in relation to Kosovo and Macedonia. One more thing the muslims in the west ARE disloyal. At 1% to 3% they should be assets in our societies at 10% or more (if you just count the younger generations) they should be repatriated before civil war.
Albanian,
How about culture? Is Albania a islamic, european or something mixed in its culture? I.e are you more european (greek, slavic, unique) middle eastern, turkish ( modern or ottoman) or something mixed specially outside your capital Tirana.
I don't know why I do this once I bet that nobody is that interested or that nobody reads this any more... but here it goes...
In Wikipedia there is this map that I like because it seems detailed and somewhat accurate. Look at Albania. It is overwhelming muslim. In the South, however, there is a little territory where Orthodox Christians predominates. Intrestingly enough, it is the Historical and Traditional Greek region of Epirus and the Greek government claims that many ethnic Greeks live there and would like to join Greece. In Albania, the Northern part is Catholic and I believe this is the region "Albanian" is from.
But the map is not that accurate and if you are really interested in the Balkans, you ought to read this. Notice how that majority muslim territory is strategic. It links muslim Albania / Kosovo to muslim Bosnia.
It also isolates little half a million strong and 20% muslim Montenegro and puts it in the middle of 5 million strong muslim Nations, with no border whatsoever to any Christian European country. Muslims and the sea only.
No doubt the great muslim Balkanic State is being built. I heard of this from "Great Albania" videos in the youtube. Turkish and Bosniak videos exist as well, stating the same goals. Remember that this muslim state can always count on the 70 million strong Turkey.
Afonso,
"They were distinct in culture from Reichsdeutsche generally and were not accepted as real Germans in Germany."
Simple - in any part of Germany they were different in a different way.
Maybe less in Bavaria, but huge numbers made them less fit for integration again.
In neighbouring village two Czechs returned from Franfurt and build a huge house. The locals call them "Germans". I am sure in Frankfurt everybody called them "Czechs". The long disruption made them something inbetween and only God knows what element is dominant. My German/Schwaebisch friend from Prague wonders that I did not acquire South German style in South Germany as some other Czechs he knows did. Do they tune to him like jazzmen or are they always like that?
Little things - maybe an illusion - makes you look this or that way.
Then the people vote and decide what you are.
The question is where the Christian Albanians would place their loyalty and solidarity in a situation of conflict: to their nation along with the Albanian Muslims (like those "Islamo-Christians" from Lebanon who side with the Muslims due to their common Arab origin, in spite of the fact that the Muslim Arabs were their tormentors throughout history) or to the larger Christian community from the Balkans.
But after all, why should I ask too much? It was the European Union itself which sided with the Albanian Muslims, so they are officially encouraged to do the same...
Alfonso,
Your questions are not interesting and provocative. However i`m responding to them
Yes, we consider ourselves illyrian. And we are illyrian (many of our names deliver from that age, teuta, genti and many others).We have many castels like the one in berat and in shkodra(scutari) that are illyrian castles. but this is not the point.
In the Skanderbeg Era 1450 our land was called "Arberia"
Shqiperia (Land of Eagles) is called cause of the eagle that is our symbol in the flag and everywhere. Eagle in albania means Shqiponje.
Yes Language makes us Albanians.
I told you that albanians all know about the wars done in centuries by our people. Muslims and everybody lay low in front of their bravery's.
Don`t you understand that muslims are forcely converted cause of the reaction of skanderbeg that betrayed the ottoman sultan. Everywhere else the ottoman empire used the religious tolerance.
That`s not true. Our head of parliament is catholic and many other ministers etc are christians.
Yes the prime minister is Muslim. But the leader of the opposition is a muslim converted to Catholic and pro christian oriented.
Alfonso,
We are Albanians, and will fight for our land to death. Whatever it will be, As our Skanderbeg did. After this comes the discussion of religion.
We are Albanians, and will fight for our land to death. Whatever it will be, As our Skanderbeg did. After this comes the discussion of religion.
"Whatever it will be" means even for a majority Muslim Albania?
Armence, how old are you?
Don`t start playing games.
If you don`t read all i wrote before than that`s all I can say.
Albania is not Muslim do you understand it!!
The problem we face in our discussion is the simple fact that in times before our languges became dominant little attention was payed to linguistically based ethnicity.
The noble and educated ones in Bucarest spoke and wrote in Greek.
Every church in the Balkans was dominated by clerics trained in Greek, most of them might be Greeks which gave them a special status at times resented by local populations. (See the dislike of Greeks in Bulgaria and love of the Greeks in Serbia even today).
According to many here the noblemen and educated classes in Bucarest would be simply Greeks. Same ethnolinguistic confusion with other linguafrankists. Someone may edit our comments here and tell us to be one nation.
Albania is not Muslim do you understand it!!
So, you don't consider the Kosovo Albanians to belong to your nation, as long as they remain Muslims. Right or wrong?
"That`s not true. Our head of parliament is catholic and many other ministers etc are christians.
Yes the prime minister is Muslim. But the leader of the opposition is a muslim converted to Catholic and pro christian oriented."
Thank you Albanian, I really though untill this day that the Christians in Albania were only Greeks in the South and restive, not-so-well assimilated peoples scattered throuthout the country.
Now I know Albania is a true multi(if not ethnic/cultural)religious country despite being overwhelming muslim.
@ Czechmade
"The problem we face in our discussion is the simple fact that in times before our languges became dominant little attention was payed to linguistically based ethnicity."
I think today is the same, I do not agree with you. The thing is that you have to diferentiate ethnicity from regional variations.
To me, the greater proof that the 3 million or so Sudetenlanders were real Germans is that they blended easily with the German population after being expelled from Czekoslovakia. That and the fact that the Austrian Empire had always been a German empire that tolerated other ethnicities (Hungarians, Bohemians, etc.).
And about languages.
There are interesting linguistic phenomenons. For instance, here, all the Peninsula spoke Latin once. Then, each region (mainly West to East) evolved differently. Even inside those regions, smaller regional differences emerged.
It is very interesting to note how, in the Western cost, throughout the almost 1000 kms, the language had naturally suffered the same phenomenons to evolve. That's why no serious linguist can argue that Portuguese and Galician are different languages. Well that maybe a bad example. But it is interesting how the Mozarabic of Southern Portugal adopted quickly the same phenomenons of the North and Centre.
The greatest difference is the classical confusion between b's and v's...
Afonso,
Since you touched the matter lightly whats the real people (not goverment) feeling about the Galizan - Portuguese question in Portugal and if you can in Galiza? What's the real people feeling for an Iberian Union?
If Albania is not Muslim, then why is it that here, under religions, it says "Muslim 70%"? I know it's a rough estimate, but still, an approximation of 70% is a lot.
@ Armance
I respect your questions cause I see you are really interested.
Kosovo Albanians are Albanians by origin but in reality we lived 100 years separated. Since 1912 when we gain independence by the ottoman empire and kosovo goes to Serbia.
Thus, i`m not that informed about kosovar people. but I can explain for sure albanian people.
Many times in youtube and in other forums i have a really bad discusion with people from kosovo (myslims) even some from albania(but these from albania i consider them turkish remains)we share angeer with them, and not only me, but many albanian people like me share the same idea. Also many so called muslims (moderated) share the same idea with us christians and want to turn back to their origin faith.
I think we should let some times to the kosovar peolpe. I hope that they become like us Albanians (moderate in the first phase than convert, but it needs time)
The second thing is that the kosovar people didn`t have schools for many years cause there weren`t universities there or the culture was not of being educated in schools. So this made them isolated minded.
@Alfonso and Natalie
Alfonso yes albania has 3 religions
Catholics Roman more than 10 %, Christian orthodox More than 20 % and muslims(atheists more than 30%) 40%
Catholics live in north cause there was a Venetian protectorate and the people there leaved in the mountains (like my predecessors ) so the Turks was not interested to go there just for some taxes.
In the south lived the orthodox
The muslims lived mostly in center and spreaded in the big cities.
Natalie i explained this before.
you can check also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania
Albkrist,
Thanks again for the information and perspective you provide. And I hope that you feel welcome here in the forum. In spite of all the poking questions, because those are part of the deal here, so you have to get used to it.
Somehow your entrance here reminds me of when Afonso Henriques came here, some year ago. He also showed a hint of impatience with other commenters initially (especially if they misspelled his name), and your attitudes about Serbia were paralleled by his about Spain (the usual "good neighbours" syndrome). But he soon became an appreciated commenter here in the forum, and I'm sure that so will you if you stick around (if not already).
Anyway, I do not take anything as presented. I always want to make my own investigations before coming to a conclusion. But you have already made me start looking at Albania with new eyes; making me ask different questions when I will study Albania further. So if there is substance to your claims I will find it, which I wouldn't otherwise have done without your help.
Thanks for the answers, AlbKrist/Albanian.
I just have one more question:
How are the relations between the Catholics and the Orthodox from Albania? Friendly or rather hostile?
P.S. to Albanian: Perhaps you know that the Albanian language is the modern language closest to the language of the Dacians, the first inhabitants of the Romanian territories before the Roman conquest. We still have a few hundreds words in Romanian of Dacian origin. When the linguists are not sure about their origin, they usually compare them with similar words in Albanian: this is one of the tests to establish their etymology.
The Dacian language was an Indo-European language spoken by the ancient Dacians. It may have been the first language to influence the Latin spoken in Dacia, but little is known about it. About 300 words found only in Romanian or with a cognate in the Albanian language may be inherited from Dacian, many of them being related to pastoral life (for example: balaur "dragon", brânză "cheese", mal "shore"). Some linguists have asserted that Albanians are Dacians who were not romanized and migrated southward.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language
So, sort of distant cousins, so to speak. Or better the Albanians are some kind of a surviving old uncle :))
Armance,
The relation between Catholics and orthodox are really really good.
Both of them have a high level culture. Orthodox lives in south mostly and Catholics in North. these days they are mixed reflecting the culture everywhere and showing to every albanian their culture.
There is a politic movement inside the orthodox church that is directed by a Greek bishop. That`s good till this one starts taking care of Greek propaganda. But most of the orthodox wants an Albanian bishop in the head, like was Fan Noli ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_S._Noli ) many years ago.
Also in the catholic church are many Italian priests but mostly we see them as help to develop our church. We also have many catholic personality like Gjergj Fishta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Fishta )(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpKKFqkHn2o)
Ndre mjeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndre_Mjeda)
and many other in both sides.
And all albanians love them, catholic orthodox and muslims.
(when i say Muslims i mean the moderate one, those that through passing of the years is hope to recover, not the extremist that are very few here, less than 3%)
This is the skanderbeg movie "SKENDERBEU" is published in 1953, by Russian movie maker in the communist era, but the actors are mixed Albanian and Russians. However is a really clear view of the situation of that time years 1450 (the story of skanderbeg)
Is in albanian and dont have a translated version.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7485574608371052031&hl=en
you people know nothing about Albanian long history. It begins 10.000 years ago, and about third mil BC religion was established, but not in the sense that the West think. For Albanians it wasnt that important,for they feared nothing, including God. That is why they had 1000 unimportant gods in the past. Later when their great king Aleksander the Great conquered the wolrd,they adopted more religions and later another Albanian, Konstantin the Great, adopted christianity for you Europeans. But for Albanian, being highly intelligent, religion has always meant nothing significant. And dont forget that Rome too was founden by Albanians from Troy, so if it wasnt for them Europe today would have been still in neolithic ages.
Why was my post removed?
sori --
Read the rules right above the window where you type your comments:
"Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum."
and follow the link to this further explanato:
"No name calling, gratuitous insults, personal slurs, denigration of someone’s intelligence, etc."
Your comment obviously violated this rule. If you would like to rewrite it so that it doesn't insult any of your fellow commenters, that would be fine.
I have read above that Albanians dont deserve to be called Europeans because they have a high concentration of muslims. Well obviously those comments came from people whom dont know Albania,statistically its true that we have a high percentage of muslims but one the other hand most of this so called muslims have absolutely no idea of the principles of their religion.Also the statistics are incorrect because in my case Im atheist but when they register me they say im a muslim.The reason is quite simple, the persons who do the statistics are ignorant and dont accept the idea that someone could be something else beside a muslim or christian.So when they ask me and I say im atheist they give me an odd look and than ask about my parents, i still tell them they are atheist and at this point comes the most intelligent question:What about your grandparents? At this point Im forced to say that they were muslims an automatically they register me as an muslim although I now absolutely nothing about this religion.I dont know really where do they get the idea that if somebody in our family has a particular religion everybody has to have that religion.
P.S:Afonso u are very wrong in your ideas but the administrators dont let me express my thoughts freely
sori-
Is there a way around that tribal rule that you are the religion your grandparents were? I mean, what if you said your grandparents were Druids? Or neo-pagan rock worshippers?
I am in sympathy with your position that you must be defined by your ancestry.
As for not having the freedom here to fully express your disagreement with another commenter, I demur. You may disagree fully and at length (to a 500 word limit), but you must do so within the confines of civil discourse.
Of one the unfortunate aspects of today's culture (world-wide) is the coarsening of dialogue to a dumbing down which allows ad hominem attacks and foul language.
As an example of how to do it, read Conservative Swede's comments. I don't agree with some of his ideas, but they are always argued with intelligence, logic, and cogency.
Let me try to be a little more specific, Normally in Albania there are 3 religions, muslims,christians and something called Bektashism which i personally think its specific to Albania only but I cant say for sure because I dont have enough information about it.Now when the polls are made someone has definitely to be in one of this 3 categories, so to speak if I said that my grandfathers were druids than they would keep digging until an ancestor of mine is found in one of this 3 categories. The fact that I dont understand is that here there is a general belief that religion is passed through generations and so people admit that they are muslims even if they hate themselves for this because their father for example was muslim.
In some of the above comments I read fear of the jihad in albania.That is highly improbable because in here no one truly cares about religion and we never had.Some people say that the religion of an Albanian is albanizem.This line was took from a poem and it has a very deep meaning,we where under the otoman empire for over 500 years and people during that time had to stick together so that they could preserve the language and traditions.There was no time to dispute about what religion someone was,the major problem was preserving the Albanian as an entity and not being assimilated bu the turkish culture and thats what Albanisem is. After the otoman emipre was defeated no one in Albania would care what religion had the other because they had surpassed that barrier.
U are truly right when u say that it is possible to argue without offending anyone but I got a little angry by reading the posts above.
The reason why they make me mad is that almost no one of the above people has enough knowledge about Albania to criticize it.We have always been victims to the media and even to ourselves. A lot of tourist when they came here they expect to see some monkeys that are trying to evolve.Yes it is true that we are a poor country,also it is true that as a nation we dont have the same maturity as englang,france or germany but compering us to some conflict nation in Africa isnt it a bit harsh.
Most of this bad publicity comes from the first years of democracy. When the border was open we were presented to the rest of the world by the scum of our society,the ones that where totally ignorant and their deeds hunt us down till the present day.
I might have moved a little from the topic but the reason why most of Europe fears us is because they dont know us, and so im trying to give a little bit of explanation about our nation.
If you are not sleeping till the end of this post then perhaps I did manage to write something interesting
Nobody should ask any Albanian what are your ancestors to decide their religion cause everybody knows that before 1400 year all Albanian was Christian. So if anyone's grandparent is Muslim than their own grandparents(grandparent of grandparents).....where Christians..
Whether the true identity of Illyrians was misconceived from the Greek's Political heritage, which was enhanced later by insulting other nations who brought freedom to the Greeks?
Nations that disobey their own true identity to manipulate their own history are known as
“Nations of Political Games”
Whether other nations benefited from the detriment of the Illyrians fighting the Ottoman Empire?
Greece was occupied by the ottomans and this gave them a good reason for claiming all other nation victories as their own, nonetheless their true heroes were Albanian as being commentated by the Greeks. It is obvious that there has been some deformation in truth of the Balkan Region, since the Greeks decided to adapt a more non common language written in the weird letters that their true origin comes from the Arab ancestry.
Whether the Greek language is hypothetically wrong for the western civilization of the Christianity?
Consider some of the facts that arise from the Modern Greek today; 1. Brutality of their own people,2. Racism to other nations,3. Ignorance of their own history
Greece is the land of political discrepancy that likes wining on other nation’s merits. Their manifestation to change the truth shows their intent to be advantaged of other weaker nations.
Tony Toska
1L Student
not at all not at all .Scanderbegs war was not religious at all.atta turk have nothing agains Isalam .The Illyrians never persecute any religion n thy stole the cristianity from the romans n hellens n they stole the Islam from the turks n albanians created(was God's will) modern Turkey n is posible they may create(with God's will) some more super Emppires like thei forefathersw did n they never fight agains true riligion n even all the world gone fight them they gone e the leaders of the world nothing like they use to be with all supper powers on this Earth....
just an add on as to the religious background on Albania/Kosova.
Albania proper is close to 50% combined Christian as of today.
Practicing Muslims are about 15 to 20% at most.
inter-religious marriages in Albania proper are plentiful.
Kosova on the other hand is DEFINITELY over 85% Muslim.
There are roughly 60 to 80 thousand Catholics left in Kosova. Most have left to Europe and to the USA.
The problem in Kosova is that Saudi Arabia and other islamic countries pay the poor Albanians yearly salaries for their women to wear proper islamic garb and to adhere to strict muslim policy.
there is very little industry or jobs for that matter.
wahabbism is slowly creeping into Kosova and there are already many reports of violent encounters between the new islamic sect and the traditional sunni muslims of Kosova.
there are an estimated 700+ muslim temples of worship in Kosova today, most being built after the the war and being financed by middle eastern countries.
The same strategy was tried on Albania after the fall of communism and it worked briefly but the Albanian government soon expelled most of the organizations responsible and confiscated their properties.
Last but not least, during serbian rule all Albanian history teachings were Not allowed in Kosova and even speaking Albanian was punishable. After so many years of this treatment the Kosovars began to associate the Cross with the oppressor and that played a large role in the Kosovars destroying Orthodox Monastaries after the war.
The leaders of Kosova today are failing their people.
I am new to this website but I have seen some very serious flaws on the information that comes mostly from looking as an outsider into Albanian culture. First of all I'm Albanian and I'd like to provide the viewpoint of an insider. Albanians are direct descendants of the Illyrians, and since ancient times we were pagan people. Do you know that 21 march we celebrate a pagan tradition? I guess not! Now Gjon Pali 2, the one who spread Christianity in Europe in its early age was Illyrian (You would say that he was Macedonian but unfortunately Macedonia was only a territory name at that time and not an ethnicity and they weren't Greeks. Ancient Greeks themselves refer to "Macedonians" as barbars or not-Greeks) Constantine, the emperor of Roman Empire, the founder of Constantinople was.... No, you didn't find it, sorry! He was Illyrian. Who saved Christianity from Islam? An Illyrian of name George Kastriot Scanderbeg! Ever heard about him? Now I think you cannot have the luxury to belittle our contribute to Christianity. In fact you should thank us. Now about the Muslim part: After the death of Scanderbeg, Albania was slaughtered by Turkish in the real meaning of the word. The population of Albania in 15 century was around 600.000 people, and from them 100.000 were killed and 200.000 migrated to Kalabria and Sicily in Italy. So Albania after the occupation was reduced to half the population. You know how painful is it for me to write these things.
(Continuing) However, we Illyrians were betrayed by Christianity. This is a letter that Scanderbeg sent to the king of Taranto who after receiving a letter from Scanderbeg seeking help against the turks, told him that he wouldn't help sheep. Now here's the response of a true leader, the worthy descendant of Alexander the Great:"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
And also when Scanderbeg sent word to Vatican that he is doing everything to protect the Holy Cross and he needed help. The Pope said "I can only pray for you my son nothing more!" (something like that) And what can I tell about Serbs? When the Ottoman Empire was engaged in wars with Albanians the local princes became powerful because of the lack of control from the Sultan. The only true ally of Scanderbeg Janosh Huniadi of Hungary had to fight a battle against the Ottomans and he asked Scanderbeg for help. He rallied 9000 brave men and marched for war (this could have been a heavy blow for the Ottomans). But in the Serbian border he was stopped by the local king and not allowed to proceed any furtherer. So chosing anouther route Scanderbeg went too late at the battle were the Ottomans had won and Hungary had fallen to the Ottomans. We were alone, without help, with armies of 20.000 poorly armed men against hordes of 150.000 men exceptionally armed and yet we resisted for 25 years (+11 after Scanderbeg's death). We were betrayed by Europe and Christianity. That's why Albanians relinquished their faith (and after half the population was destroyed). But we never betrayed who we are (remember the letter of Scanderbeg)! At the beginning we only converted to Islam because there were heavy taxes for non-muslims in the Ottoman Empire. But it was no biggie! (to be continued)
(continuing) But the time when Albanians really begun to convert to Islam was after the Russia-Turkey war. At that time begun an aggressive and chauvinist politic of Serbia and Greece against Albania. Since they were Orthodox like Russians whereas we were under the rule of Ottoman Empire we were the one to suffer as our land served as an exchange currency for the peace treaty! Half of the Albanian territory was left outside national borders along with 2 thirds of Albanian population.Thank God the Austro-Hungarian Empire was our ally and supportd our cause and at the Conference of Ambassadors in Berlin 1913 we were not completely wiped out of the World's map! Another such conspiracy against the remaining Albania between Greece and Serbia could divide the remaining parts between Greece and Serbia. But fortunately President Wilson of USA vetoed against this chauvinist practice that was backed by England and Russia. God Bless America! Now returning to why Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia are more "Islamized" then Albania itself is because religion played a very important role for the Albanian people of Kosovo and Macedonia not to be assimilated. That's all! It is only a politics war not to be assimilated. Have you heard how Serbians press to much on the religion factor about Kosovo? Politics, trying to assimilate people or classifying people as European or Asian! Serbians say that we are people coming from the East and took their land! Bullsh*t! How can a people coming from the east settle on the west part of the Balkans where their density is smaller. Pure flawed logic and chauvinist practices of Greece and Serbia to steal our culture because we never have been a powerful enough country to protect ourselves. Do you know that all work done to support Illyrian heritage of Albania is done by Germans and Austrians? Go figure! Hope this helped European People to understand a little more about Albania. And We don't care about religion! We were betrayed by all religions! I never even consider asking if someone is Christian, Muslim or Orthodox. I don't care! All Albanians don't care! WE were f***d up by religion! It's true although that in recent years there has been a lot of work done by religious organisations in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Rome, Greece to reestablish religion in Albania but only a few people have became religion practitioners. But since religion is fading in the modern world I guess this newly emerging religious community will have no ground to develop any further! In Kosovo and Macedonia is different, however, because it's a tool to resist assimilation! Great Blog! Best Regards!
What is wrong with the european nations. Listen to your selves and should feel so small while hearing to such prejudisms.The whole debate is sparkled by a video showing a part of the albanian history.Can you point out a nation or even a person that hasn't had deviations or variations during their history?!I fully understand the europeans that fled the old continent for e new life to the USA.We would be better of if we created our identity based on what we do rather than on what other people did.Take a look at a an earth image taken from space and it's easy to realize how small we are and that we are all part of one.Religion has always caused segregation,wars and hate.
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