Monday, December 01, 2008

Jihad in Mumbai

Mumbai: Taj Mahal Hotel

Last Wednesday’s massive terrorist attack on Mumbai will have repercussions that extend far beyond the borders of India and Pakistan. This is a major offensive by the Global Jihad, which has no intention of resting on its laurels after killing a mere 200 or so people in India. The battle is just beginning.

But to hear the once and future leaders of the Free World tell it, there’s nothing to see here, and we can just move along. Pundita points out the contrast between the muscular response from the leaders of Russia and Japan and the pusillanimous statements issued in the names of both Barack Obama and George W. Bush. From the White House we got this:

The United States condemns this terrorist attack and we will continue to stand with the people of India in this time of tragedy.

There’s only “terrorism”. There’s no jihad. Islam is not mentioned. If we say anything about it, we might damage the “interfaith dialogue” upon which the White House, the UN, and the Vatican have placed so much hope.

Have you noticed that in every incident in which Muslims kill or attempt to kill infidels, “no connection with terrorism is involved”? Before the bodies are even covered up and rolled away on the gurneys, the spokesmen grab the microphones to assure the public that they have nothing to worry about. Despite the fact the Americans, Britons, Spaniards, Italians, etc., are killed while their murderers shout “Allahu Akhbar!”, there is “no connection with terrorism”.

Such denials are not possible in Mumbai. Even so, the Indian government seems to be taking the same sort of tack, playing down the connections with Lashkar-e-Toiba and the Taliban. But not all Indians are buying it. The prominent terrorism expert B. Raman has a lengthy and lucid point-by-point analysis in SAAG entitled Mumbai: Lessons for the Future. He notes:

  • There were 13 incidents of intense firing with assault rifles at different places, including the Chhatrapati Shivaji Train (CST) terminus, where the terrorist operation started at 9-21 PM, the Metro Cinema junction, the Cama and Albless Hospital, outside the Olympia restaurant in Colaba, the lobbies of the Taj Mahal and Oberoi/Trident hotels, and the Leopald Café behind the Taj Mahal Hotel. The terrorists would seem to have chosen the CST for the launching of their strikes because it is named after Shivaji, a Hindu ruler, who fiercely opposed the Muslim rulers of India. Near the Metro Cinema junction, some terrorists hijacked a police vehicle and went around spraying bullets on passers-by.
  • There were seven incidents involving explosive devices — outside the Taj Mahal Hotel, in the BPT Colony at Mazgaon, three near the Oberoi/Trident Hotels, the Colaba market and inside a taxi.
  • There were many incidents of throwing hand-grenades — two of them at the Cama hospital and on Free Press Road. Hemant Karkare, the legendary head of Mumbai’s Anti-terrorism Squad (ATS), is reported to have been killed in the incident near the hospital.
  • There were three incidents of fidayeen style (suicidal, not suicide) infiltration into buildings followed by a prolonged confrontation with the security forces before being killed or captured. These took place in the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi/Trident hotels and in the Narriman House in Colaba, where a Jewish religious-cum-cultural centre is located, headed by a Jewish Rabbi. Jewish people of different nationalities often congregate there. The centre also has cheap accommodation for Jewish visitors from abroad.

And also this:

Almost all the terrorist strikes took place against targets near the sea, indicating thereby that the terrorists, who had reportedly come by sea, were hoping to escape by sea if they managed to survive.

He draws some uncomfortable conclusions about what happened, among them:

3. The Government of Prime Minister Dr.Manmohan Singh and his Congress (I) are back to their denial and cover-up mode. They play down the possibility of the involvement of Al Qaeda despite tell-tale signs of an Al Qaeda stamp on the strikes. They continue to maintain a silence on the role of sections of the Indian Muslims lest any open projection of this cost them Muslim votes. They continue to highlight the role of the LET, but without highlighting the fact that it is a member of Osama bin Laden’s International Islamic Front (IIF) and that it has many associates in the Indian Muslim community.
  […]
9. In my view, the terrorist strikes in Mumbai had the stamp of Al Qaeda in the way they were conceived, planned and executed. There has also been a touch of the Hizbollah of the Lebanon, the Popular Front For The Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade and other Palestinian organizations.
  […]
12. The success of the terrorists in evading detection by our Coast Guard and the police reveals a serious gap in our maritime counter-terrorism architecture. If this gap is not quickly identified and closed, the vulnerability of the Bombay High off-shore oil installations and the nuclear establishments to terrorist attacks from the sea would be increased. Many of our nuclear and space establishments — not only in Mumbai, but also in other areas — are located on the coast and are particularly vulnerable to sea-borne terrorist attacks.
13. The stamp of Al Qaeda is evident in the selection of targets. The Taj Hotel, old and new, the Oberoi-Trident Hotel and the Narriman House were the strategic focus of the terrorist operation. The terrorist strikes in other places such as railway stations, a hospital etc and instances of random firing were of a tactical nature intended to create scare and panic.
14. The strategic significance of the attacks on the two hotels from Al Qaeda’s point of view arose from the fact that these hotels are the approved hotels of the US and Israeli Governments for their visiting public servants and for the temporary stay of their consular officials posted in Mumbai till a regular house is found for them.
  […]
17. The fact that the number of foreigners killed was small would show that the attacks on the foreigners in the hotels was selective and not indiscriminate. Available reports indicate that the terrorists were looking for American, British and Israeli nationals — particularly visiting public servants among them with official or diplomatic passports.

There have been reports that the Indian army has mobilized on the border with Pakistan, and now comes word that Pakistan is doing the same on their side of the line. According to The Australian:
- - - - - - - - -
Pakistan is withdrawing troops from the fight against al-Qa’ida and the Taliban to redeploy them to its border with India as tensions between the two nuclear-armed nations escalate over the terrorist massacre in Mumbai.

[…]

Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari urged India not to “overreact” after Indian and US officials suggested the militants could have been from the Pakistan-based LET. The group was behind the deadly 2001 assault on the Indian parliament that pushed New Delhi and Islamabad to the brink of war.

Given the mounting evidence of Pakistani — including elements of the ISI — involvement in the attacks, what would constitute an “overreaction” by India? Nuking Islamabad?

The more one delves into the labyrinth of information about Mumbai, the clearer it becomes that some of the world’s major powers, including the United States, Britain, Pakistan, and India itself, have good reasons not to want any close scrutiny of what actually happened. According to The Times of India:

MOSCOW: A top Russian counter-terrorism expert on Sunday underlined that the Mumbai attackers were not “ordinary terrorists” and were probably trained by the special operations forces set up in Pakistan by the US intelligence prior to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

“The handwriting and character of the Mumbai events demonstrates that they were not ordinary terrorists,” said Vladimir Klyukin, an Afghan war veteran.

“Behind this terrorist attack there are ‘Green Flag’ special operations forces, which were created by the Americans in Pakistan, just an year before the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, and in the initial period were under full US control,” stressed Klyukin, a veteran of the special “Vympel” commando group of the former Soviet KGB.

One of the uncomfortable facts that we all have to live with is that during the Cold War the United States, via the efforts of its intelligence agencies, helped radicalize, motivate, arm, and deploy the various groups of mujahideen that now plague South Asia. The Taliban may have been a new formation when they appeared on the scene in the 1990s, but they emerged from the seething cauldron of jihad that the CIA had so carefully cultivated ten years earlier.

Although the “Deccan Mujahideen” claimed responsibility for what happened in Mumbai, all indications are that Lashkar-e-Toiba, working in concert with elements of Al Qaeda, masterminded the attacks. One analyst, in an interview with AKI, rejects the idea that the Deccan Mujahideen even exist:

The deadly attacks in the Indian city of Mumbai bear the hallmarks of a foreign, Al-Qaeda-inspired group, a New Delhi terrorism expert Vikram Sood told Adnkronos International (AKI) on Thursday. Sood described the attacks as a “very serious” assault on the Indian state.

Suspected Islamist militants launched a series of coordinated gun and hand-grenade attacks late on Wednesday, killing over 100 people, injuring nearly 300. A number of hotel guests were also taken hostage in the attacks.

“I don’t believe it was the Deccan Mujahadeen at all,” Sood said, referring to a previously unknown group which claimed responsibility for the Mumbai attacks.

“The group doesn’t exist. It’s a red herring,” he told AKI.

[…]

The militant group that carried out Wednesday’s attacks in Mumbai appeared to be extremely well trained and well backed in terms of logistics, money and weapons, Sood said.

“From the TV shots of the terrorists, they are totally in control and have a long-term perspective” he said.

He described the Mumbai attacks as a “qualitative leap” compared with other recent attacks in India such as the May serial blasts in the western Indian city of Jaipur which killed at least 66 people and left about 200 wounded.

And what about Pakistan?

Sood declined to comment on whether a Pakistani militant group might be responsible, saying it was “too early to say”.

But he said: “This kind of attack needs careful planning, reconnaissance, knowing the behaviour of security personnel and those coming and going, and how to be inconspicuous.”

Besides the evidence of a seaborne deployment from Pakistan, the incidents involved such careful long-term logistical planning that spontaneous local jihad groups would have been unable to manage them. According to NDTV:

Mumbai: Preparations Began Four Months Back

[…]

According to the police, Qasab had booked rooms in the Taj where the explosives were kept.

Terrorists showed Mauritian ID Cards and posed as students to the hotel. Indian ID cards were recovered from two terrorists at the Oberoi Trident.

A recce of all the locations were done around four months ago by a different group of terrorists.

They studied the satellite pictures of the hotels, various locations and made detailed maps.

In addition, as reported by The Times of India, the plan was executed out with great precision:

Terrorists Did Recce, Set Up Control Rooms in Luxury Hotels

MUMBAI: Terrorists who struck Mumbai had set up advance “Control Rooms” in the luxury Taj and Trident Oberoi hotels which was also targeted and did prior reconnaissance executing plans worked “over months”, Union Cabinet minister Kapil Sibal said on Thursday night.

Sibal said the unprecedented terror attack in the country’s financial capital was planned “over months” and the terrorists were not carrying AK-47 rifles but sophisticated weapons like MP-6.

“The terrorists have identified the targets earlier. Somebody had told them earlier. Enormous planning went into the incident. The terrorists were dropped by a mother ship and travelled in rubber boats which they docked (at Mumbai),” Sibal said.

Terrorists were not attacking people at random. It was a well though out plan, Sibal said.

They had targeted certain key police officers even when they were wearing vests and protective head gears, he said, adding the terrorists shot them dead within minutes of their arrival.

[…]

The Union Home Ministry said the terrorists chose the sea route and came to the city in boats before spreading out in the metropolis to carry out the sinister strike.

And the Wilmington Star-News has this to add:

The Times of India newspaper reported on Friday that the Coast Guard had found an Indian fishing trawler, the Kuber, that disappeared on Nov. 14. The Kuber may have been used as a so-called mother ship to transport inflatable rafts within range of South Mumbai, much as pirate mother ships from Somalia, across the Arabian Sea from Mumbai, have used smaller boats to hijack tankers and other vessels in recent weeks.

[…]

Not all of the terrorists may have entered Mumbai on the night of the attack. Local news media, citing anonymous law enforcement officials, are reporting that one captured terrorist has said during interrogation that some members of his group had stayed in hotels for four days before the attacks to prepare for them and even to store ammunition in the rooms.

When the terrorists landed in front of Mr. Dhanur’s boat, they were just three blocks straight down a narrow lane from Nariman House, a five-story building housing a Jewish center run by a young rabbi, Gavriel Holtzberg, and his wife, Rivka, who had moved from New York.

Azam Amir KasabDetermining exactly how the attack was planned and carried out depends on collecting active intelligence from someone in the know. Most of the terrorists died during the shootouts that ended the siege, but at least one of the perpetrators survived. His name is Azam Amir Kasav (or Kasab), and he is being treated at a hospital in Mumbai under the watchful eye of the Indian authorities.

Kasav became the poster boy for the Mumbai atrocities when his picture was taken by a photographer for the Mumbai Mirror. Today the same newspaper reports that Kasav is ready to forego his 72 virgins, which is good news indeed for those who wish to learn more about the planning and execution of his operation:

“I Want to Live” Says Captured Terrorist

His swaggering image as he walked around Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus was captured by Mumbai Mirror photo editor Sebastian D’Souza, and was the first glimpse of the terrorists who have held Mumbai hostage over the last 48 hours.

Now we can also tell you who this man is and how he has become the vital link for investigating agencies to crack the terror plot. His name is Azam Amir Kasav, he is 21 years old, speaks fluent English, hails from tehsil Gipalpura in Faridkot in Pakistan, and is the only terrorist from this audacious operation to have been captured alive. An ATS spokesperson confirmed that the man captured was indeed the one photographed by us.

On the night of Wednesday-Thursday, Azam and his colleague opened fire at CST before creating havoc at Metro and then moving on to Girgaum Chowpatty in a stolen Skoda, and where they were intercepted by a team from the Gamdevi police station. Azam shot dead assistant police inspector Tukaram Umbale.

But in that encounter, Azam’s colleague was killed and he himself was injured in the hand. He pretended to be dead giving rise to the news that two terrorists had been killed. However, as the “bodies” were being taken to Nair Hospital, the accompanying cops, figured that one of the men was breathing.

According to sources, the casualty ward of Nair hospital was evacuated and the Anti-Terror Squad moved in to interrogate him. Azam who was tightlipped initially, cracked upon seeing the mutilated body of his colleague and pleaded with the medical staff at Nair to save his life. “I do not want to die,” he reportedly said. “Please put me on saline.”

Do you think the Indian authorities share our squeamishness about waterboarding?

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

One of the details revealed by Azam Amir Kasav is that the terrorists planned to kill 5,000 people during their attacks. This was an ambitious operation, with goals that extended beyond the death of all those infidels.

It’s still too early do draw definite conclusions, but the planners of the Mumbai attacks likely intended some or all of the following:

1. Demoralize the Indian populace;
2. Destablize the current Congress Party government in India, throwing the door open for Hindu nationalists, and thus also
3. Increase the likelihood that India and Pakistan will go to war, causing the jihad to go nuclear;
4. Cause severe economic damage to India, adding to the global financial crisis;
5. Serve as an inspiration to pious Muslims in India itself, adding recruits to the cause of jihad, and thus
6. Help the separatist aspirations of Assam and other majority-Muslim areas in India.

As a general strategy, one may assume that the terrorists are following the time-honored dictum of Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, a.k.a. Lenin: “The worse, the better”.

So what happens next? A lot depends on what those troops massing on both sides of the border get up to in the next few weeks.

And there are so many unknowns:

  • How will President Barack Hussein Obama handle the issue of a potential nuclear encounter between India and Pakistan?
  • Whose arms will he twist, and how hard?
  • How likely is it that the new Pakistani government will overcome its current disarray and assert control over the military and the ISI?
  • How radicalized are the Muslims within India’s borders?

Too many questions, not enough answers.


Links to additional information:

During the attacks:


  • AKI: British Hostages Unconfirmed Says Foreign Office
  • AKI: Actress Hid in a Cupboard to Escape Mumbai Attack
  • AKI: Jewish Centre Under Siege in Mumbai
  • AKI: Bomb Blasts Heard in Hotel by Trapped Australian
  • The Times of India: Fight Against Terrorists “Almost Coming to End”: Police Commissioner

Aftermath:

  • AKI: Rabbi Among Dead Hostages Discovered at Jewish Centre in Mumbai
  • Belfast Telegraph: Mumbai Photographer: I Wish I’d Had a Gun, Not a Camera
  • Rediff: Doctors Shocked at Hostages’ Torture

Analysis:

  • The Times of India: Mumbai Attack: Pak Role Under Scrutiny
  • AKI: Kashmir ‘Key Issue’ in Terrorist Attacks

Hat tips: C. Cantoni, JD, TB, VH, and Paul Green.

47 comments:

George Bruce said...

Please do not swallow whole and repeat Russian propaganda that the US is somehow to blame. The idea that these young men could be the result of US efforts to opposed Russian imperialism 25 years ago is ridiculous. Don't repeat any of the lies about how we are really to blame. Only the Jihadis are to blame.

Don't make too much about how well trained and prepared they were either. Read the accounts of that photographer here

The effectiveness of the jihadis seems to be mostly a reflect of the ineffectiveness of the Indian police. If I'd been there with a suitable weapon, I could have potted at least a couple of those puppies.

Baron Bodissey said...

George Bruce --

You’ll notice that I link that same Belfast Telegraph story in my post. I’m well aware of what Mr. D’Souza said about the Mumbai Police. The anti-terrorism units, however, get a higher rating than the city police.

Just because I mention what the USA did back in the 1980s doesn’t mean I “blame” us for the mujahideen. And this is not a “lie” — it’s simply what happened at the time, and it may have been a stupid move. I remember reading in the newspaper about what the CIA was doing — maybe about 1985 — and some national security analysts warned about the monster we were helping to create.

It’s important to learn and remember the truth about our history. Too much of what has happened is obscured by one kind of propaganda or another. But it is necessary to look unflinchingly at the truth. Only by remembering our past stupidities will we have any hope of avoiding similar stupidities in the future.

Alex said...

I would like to add the article, Hindus, Jews, and Jihad Terror in Mumbai by Andrew Bostom (at American Thinker) to your Links (Analysis) list. Especially the excerpts from the text by Brigadier S.K. Malik, which contains the following statement: "Terror struck into the hearts of the enemies is not only a means, it is the end in itself."

Here is the URL :

The American Thinker

Conservative Swede said...

Zenster made a "cryptic" comment just recently about how the Beslan mass killing and other Islamic atrocities against Russians demonstrated how Russia is not a good country and does not care for it own.

Zenster, you declined to clarify what you meant with your comment. So let us try to figure out what you mean by relating it to a concrete example:

Do you consider this massive Islamic terrorist attack on Mumbai as a proof of how India is not a good country and does not care for its own?

Conservative Swede said...

Quotes from BB's link above Rediff: Doctors Shocked at Hostages’ Torture:

Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

"Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing," a doctor said.

Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: "It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim's body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words," he said.

[...]

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.

blogagog said...

I'm having trouble buying this whole scenario. Are you saying that muslims did this? That's absurd. As George Bush mentioned, islam is a religion of peace!

And religions of peace don't kill people. No, this must be the work of Indian Nihilists, or maybe some murderous Buddhists. It can't be the Religion of Peace. It's just not possible. Our President wouldn't lie to us.

Bilgeman said...

I reckon that bin Laden and his honchos must be feeling the heat in Northwest Pakistan.

What better way to cool things off in their neck of the woods than by starting a fire on the opposite side of the country, and against the "Hindu infidels" who have "occupied" Kashmir?

And the Indians discovered "holes" in their maritime security?

I'm surprised that there even IS "maritime security" at all. I've seen precious little MarSec here in the US. The TWIC card scam and various DHS "Colored Alerts" and "Talking-Shop" boondoggles notwithstanding.

Today, Mumbai bleeds. Tomorrow it could be Miami.

Robert Marchenoir said...

I suppose there is a mistake in this paragraph: "terrorism" seems to have been used instead of "islam".

>>>

"Have you noticed that in every incident in which Muslims kill or attempt to kill infidels, “no connection with terrorism is involved”? Before the bodies are even covered up and rolled away on the gurneys, the spokesmen grab the microphones to assure the public that they have nothing to worry about. Despite the fact the Americans, Britons, Spaniards, Italians, etc., are killed while their murderers shout “Allahu Akhbar!”, there is “no connection with terrorism”."

Baron Bodissey said...

Robert --

That's part of my point. Not only does the government forbid any talk of "jihad" or Islam", but it refuses to connect any specific incident even with "terrorism". These are all just isolated instances of murderous psychopaths who happen to be Muslims.

I'm sure this helps them show how much the DHS has reduced the incidence of terrorism. By redefining the word, we now have much less of it. Look at the statistics! We're in good shape!

Robert Marchenoir said...

Baron: holy smokes. I never imagined that even the mention of terrorism would have been photoshopped out of the picture. Maybe the American government is getting ahead of Europe, sharia-wise? No small feat.

Baron Bodissey said...

Robert --

We probably are well ahead of Europe, at least in the financial end of sharia. But the "terrorism" issue, I think, is driven more by domestic politics. When an incident is determined to be terrorism, then federal, state, and local authorities are all mandated to do a whole lot of expensive things, so they are motivated to avoid designating things as terrorism.

Keeping Islam, jihad, and terrorism out of the picture smoothes out everything at the top, too, with Saudi money constantly pressuring every national politician not to see any Islamic terrorism.

Czechmade said...

SocLibMilitConSwede...hahaha

After Indian Beslan the Indian President should abolish elected Chief Ministers of various Indian states and appoint their own, as Kremlin did after Russian Beslan with governors of various Provinces. hahaha there is a difference. Watch closely.

They exploited Beslan to the full and achieved a highest degree of centralized power orgasmus. How is it possible to get such power benefits based on a human tragedy?
In Russia IT IS ROUTINE.

Also can you imagine blocking journalists coming from New Delhi or abroad and closing effectively Mumbai? That would be the Russian way. It seems India is more Western and European than Russia. With Indians you can criticize this or that and their friendly approach does not change. Try to do the same with an Arab or Russian. You get into troubles. Or below with the Albanian guy. He could not cross certain borders. And we get slowly trained in respecting them. Why?

"Vladimir Klyukin, an Afghan war veteran"...would be nice to know more about his crimes against Afghans and "Soviet" soldiers.
The Russians treat their own as shit and many "Soviets" were not even Russian..go and figure.

In Russia to condense the power any pretext is gooood and Beslan served as an excellent smoke-screen.

Chechen wars were also an excellent pretext to draw the chaotically growing democratic carpet from underneath the Russian feet.

In nineties there were real heroes in Russia asking hard questions. Where are they now?

Homophobic Horse said...

"Muscular response from the leaders of Russia and Japan"

*Homer Simpson says WOoooo*

"Please do not swallow whole and repeat Russian propaganda that the US is somehow to blame. The idea that these young men could be the result of US efforts to opposed Russian imperialism 25 years ago is ridiculous"

It's a verified fact that the U.S. establishment helped get the ball rolling on the current jihad in 80s Afghanistan.

Also, there was no Russian national government from the years 1917 to 1991, the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan cannot be described as Russian Imperialism.

thll said...

The why's and wherefores are interesting - but are they really that important? Aren't they the stuff of postmortems?.

It seems to me that what's most important is what is. The ship's got a hole in it and it's sinking - and if we don't plug the hole in time what will it matter to us what caused it?

Why aren't we plugging the hole? Why aren't we responding muscularly to Islam? The west could solve the Muslim problem in a long weekend if it had the will - so what's stopping it?

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

So Baron, you approve of torture for politically correct reasons?

Shame. I thought you were an American, not a Russian or a German.

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Initial comments from Pakistani leaders indicate that they condemn the attacks and are offering assistance in tracing the inevitable ties back to Pakistan that will result from any investigation.

But Indian leaders are already talking war - so perhaps the main objective of the terrorists - destroying any chance at rapprochment and cooperation against their common enemies between India and Pakistan - has been achieved.

And the Baron apparently thinks that any action short of nuking Islamabad is OK with him.

Shame, Baron. You are truly a useful idiot to the Islamocrazies.

Armance said...

Shame. I thought you were an American, not a Russian or a German.

This is involuntarily a compliment. A reason for pride, not shame. An American with a German mind and a Russian soul - the closest to my idea of human perfection.

Baron Bodissey said...

Armance --

I've got enough German blood in me on my maternal grandmother's side to make me a full-fledged Nazi. ;)

Baron Bodissey said...

Nodrog! Good to have you back -- I thought we had lost you for good.

When did I say anything about torture? I don't consider waterboarding to be torture. Amnesty International and I don't agree on everything.

And what makes you think that I object to nuking Islamabad?

Erich said...

According to the article, New Delhi terrorism "expert" Vikram Sood notes the obvious (but apparently is not "expert" enough to infer another obvious thing from it):

"This kind of attack needs careful planning, reconnaissance, knowing the behaviour of security personnel and those coming and going, and how to be inconspicuous.”

What Sood fails to infer is that this kind of attack also requires Muslim infiltration in key spots long before the attack -- such as on the staff of the hotel and other venues attacked, from janitorial, to kitchen, to managerial, etc. I.e., there were likely quite a few "moderate" Muslims who were working reconnaissance in the days, weeks, perhaps months prior to this attack. Most if not all of these Muslims would be deemed to be "moderate" and therefore trustworthy by most Westerners, laboring under the complex delusion of the PC MC paradigm as they continue to be.

The moral of this story, as of other gruesome Islamic stories, is that we cannot trust any Muslim. All Muslims are suspect. Not "some". Not "most". ALL. 100%.

Czechmade said...

Homophobic Horse:

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
"the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan cannot be described as Russian Imperialism."

You know little Western champion of total naivety and denial...there was a Soviet book store in the very centre of Prague...huge you know...and there you could buy a few harmless books in French or English, so being totally starved I used to go there to buy few books...Maupassant or Hemingway published in USSSR. No real choice.

The only book in Ukrainian was the complete works of Lenin in Ukrainian...HAHAHAHA SOVIET!!!! and one day I decided to ORDER AND PAY FOR an Armenian-Russian dictionary. They did write it down and I have NEVER received the book! It was so Soviet!

So tell me, little boy, was the Soviet book store - the great propaganda tool, the cultural Embassy od USSSR to win our minds and hearts - Soviet or Russian?

Dealing with the mandatory and obligatory "love for Soviet Union" advertized on every building of importance - a railway station or a castle - could I realistically fall in love with something non-Russian in USSSR? No way.

They did not like such irresponsible attitudes.

Bob W. said...

The seeming reluctance of armed police, first on the scene, to respond effectively to the terror attack is interesting, and something that we should think about as we analyze our own readiness for a similar type of attack in the U.S.

I argue here that at other times in history we were fairly prepared for unpleasant surprises like what occurred in Mumbai, using the historical example of the James-Younger raid on Northfield Minnesota. Cheers.

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade:
So tell me, little boy, was the Soviet book store - the great propaganda tool, the cultural Embassy od USSSR to win our minds and hearts - Soviet or Russian?

Did they sell Solzhenitsyn?

Dealing with the mandatory and obligatory "love for Soviet Union" advertized on every building of importance - a railway station or a castle - could I realistically fall in love with something non-Russian in USSSR? No way.

For example Stalin (Georgian) or Khrushchev (Ukrainian).

But of course, for those who conflates USSR and Russia, they were both Russian.

Well actually I don't agree with H. Horse's description either. But any nuances will be futile to bring up now that this has turned into a chat style "HAHAHAHAHAHA!" thread.

Czechmade said...

Baron,

"I've got enough German blood in me on my maternal grandmother's side to make me a full-fledged Nazi. ;)"

We did not establish how many Germans were Nazis. Probably much less than we think. Then your granma leaving Germany for good commited high treason, so I am afraid you are totally disqualified . Many Germans were also communists...are you not scared?

Baron Bodissey said...

Czechmade,

Actually, it wasn't my grandma. It was at least 4 generations before her. The ancestor in question didn't leave Germany; he left Bavaria, which was not at all the same thing in those days.

But Munich is in Bavaria, and Hitler moved to Bavaria, so my Bavarian blood probably still makes me a Nazi, for the sake of the multiculti census.

Homophobic Horse said...

Mini-Fitna for Communism:

Persecution of Orthodox church and others:

Lenin in a letter to Gorky 14 November 1913

"any religious idea, any idea of any god at all, any flirtation even with a god, is the most inexpressible foulness, particularly tolerantly (and often even favourably) accepted by the democratic bourgeoisie—for that very reason it is the most dangerous foulness, the most shameful “infection”. A million physical sins, dirty tricks, acts of violence and infections are much more easily discovered by the crowd, and therefore are much less dangerous, than the nubile, spiritual idea of god, dressed up in the most attractive “ideological” costumes. "

Source.

The result of Lenin's ideas: Pitesti Prison, among many others

Communist idea's regarding nationality:

The interests of socialism are above the rights of nations to self determination. - Lenin

"The aim of socialism is [..] to abolish all nation states [and] merge them. - The German Ideology

Ukraine Famine

The Stalinist Terror 1937-38

On the Bolshevik "Martyrs",

"Perhaps 1937 was needed in order to show how little their whole ideology was worth--that ideology of which they boasted so enthusiastically , turning Russia upside down, destroying it's foundations, trampling everything it held sacred underfoot, that Russia where they themselves had never been threatened by such retribution."

Solzhenitsyn - The Gulag Archipelago, Chapter 3 "The Interrogation"

Was Communism a manifestation of the Asiatic Russian cruelty?

Homophobic Horse said...

"But of course, for those who conflates USSR and Russia, they were both Russian.

Well actually I don't agree with H. Horse's description either. "

I was thinking someone would bring that up. The Russian nationalism of the Soviet Union I regard as a counterfeit patriotism to molest Russian heart's into behaving in accordance with the goals of Communism.

Today the goal's of Communism are pursued by corrupt Western Academia and Tranzie quango Non-Governmental Organisations. Eurabia is in principle on the same continuum with the Ukraine Famine - destroy nationhood on the grounds that nationality is primitive and outmoded, and so evolve human society to a higher level during which natural selection (survival of the fittest) will destroy the unfit that cannot adapt to the "new paradigm."

Fr. George Calciu, a survivor of the Pitesti re-education experiment wrote in his homily to Romanian youth:

"You were oppressed by force which created within you a natural resistance against a system of materialistic thinking and formed within you a mystical dimension. You, my young friend, did not believe anything that was told to you then, because, as you know, under the guise of relative truth, which the rulers of the times had proclaimed as absolute truth, a complete and totalitarian lie was hidden".

The lie being that truth is relative, and for that reason "mutable" as George Orwell wrote in 1984. Truth is pure proposition, it's power comes from merely being believed.

Systemic denial of the reality of Islam is a contemporary example.

thll said...

Erich of course you are correct - it is a mistake to trust any Muslim. Their belief system puts them beyond trust. Dialogue is pointless - but then what?

Czechmade said...

Conservative Russian

The Russian imperialism practiced by czar was discredited by his weakness after WWI.
A new tool was adopted and proved to be very efficient. Then most Russians found it kosher. Until now they complain "they helped so many nations in Africa and Asia and they got impoverished" that way. The greatness of Russia could be felt really everywhere. Something the czar failed to do for Russia. Until now majority of Russians questioned support the occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Surprize?

All other nations in USSR identified themselves with us.

Surprize? All my young age I was bombarded with Russian crap only. Other "Soviets" were not included.
Surprize? The "Soviet" figue leaf was a propaganda necessity. Surprize? A minimum decorum was required to keep the obvious less obvious.

Just one word and a Western guy gets willingly fooled even after this propaganda dies out. Real surprize comes from the West!


(Stalin was half Georgian and half Abchazian. You are free to call him Abchazian since you support Russian Anschluss/annectation of Abchazia.

Stalin worked for the czar´s secret police. Surprize? So he was payed by Russian state long before USSSR came into existence.)


Instead of 30 volumes of Lenins complete work in Ukrainian you could comfortably present 30 genuine Ukrainian classics on the shelf starting with Shevchenko.

Are you interested in Ukrainian, you dirty nationalist? Then study Lenin! This was the message.

Are you interested in French? Then study Karl Marx in French. HAHAHA

Intellectual lego playing does not work well with you, you should make a trip to USSSR.

Same guys sit in the same positions
and try to do the same business. Yes, they might be very antiSoviet.
Quoting Putin the biggest tragedy of 20th c. was dissolution if USSSR.

No Auschwitz, no Russian soldiers dying, no famine in Ukraine...just the wonderful dissolution of USSR was the real tragedy for a little nasty KGB officer...who has nothing to do with USSR...being a Russian victim., you know.

Bravo!

Homophobic Horse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Homophobic Horse said...

"Just one word and a Western guy gets willingly fooled even after this propaganda dies out."

" you support Russian Anschluss/annectation of Abchazia."

You're right you have been fooled. Russia's side in recent Georgia conflict--which has been extensively discussed here--was found to be true.

"Are you interested in Ukrainian, you dirty nationalist? Then study Lenin! This was the message."

Pure Marxist-Leninism. "The interests of socialism are above the rights of nations to self determination."

Just for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

laine said...

Only here with the usual skewing by the usual Russophiles could the pronouncement by some two bit Russian official propaganda spokesman be elevated to any importance whatsoever in the Mumbai equation. On any other site Russians don't rate even a mention, let alone slavish deference.

Russians are promoted by some here as the ruthless anti-terrorists the world needs when actually their first instinct is to use any terrorist activity anywhere in the world to slag the USA instead of the terrorists. By that criterion, Eurabia is a hotbed of anti-terrorism LOL.

For non-fans, Russians are still the premiere terrorists of the 20th century on a scale that Muslim terrorists can only dream of emulating and find inspiring. And forget about the lame "Soviets were not Russians". What were they? Aliens who took over Russians' unwilling bodies temporarily?

The only terrorist a Russian will badmouth or squash is a thorn in their own side like the Chechens. Otherwise, as long as their depredations are directed toward the non-Russian West, they encourage terrorists just as Putin's mouthpiece did on this occasion, by directing attention away from the Muslim killers to grind Russia's anti-American axe from the days of its failed imperialistic foray into Afghanistan.

George Bruce said...

"It's a verified fact that the U.S. establishment helped get the ball rolling on the current jihad in 80s Afghanistan."

So you are agreeing that US help to Afgans resisting Russian invasion 25 years ago is somehow to blame for what happened in Bombay a few days ago??????????

Did Barry Obama convince you of this?

George Bruce said...

Baron Bodissey said...

"I remember reading in the newspaper about what the CIA was doing — maybe about 1985 — and some national security analysts warned about the monster we were helping to create."

This monster was created in the 6th century. I think that pre-dates the CIA by a bit. Anything that distracts us from the real enemy helps our enemy.

"It’s important to learn and remember the truth about our history. Too much of what has happened is obscured by one kind of propaganda or another. But it is necessary to look unflinchingly at the truth. Only by remembering our past stupidities will we have any hope of avoiding similar stupidities in the future."

Good, then let us remember history. Let us never forget that it stared before the Cold War.

All the plausible scenarios about the West surviving the Islamic onslaught involve the US acting as an arsenal of democracy. If the US goes, so goes all hope. The survival of Russia is irrelevant. It would be good, but it is irrelevant. Given the demographics, I think the survival of Russia is in doubt.

Blaming the US for Bombay is ridiculous and counterproductive. It may seem that it is in the short sighted interests of the Russians to distract world attention from the causes of Islamic imperialism and deflect some of the blame to the US. Such an effort is against the long term interests of all Russians and all the world.

George Bruce said...

Look, people...if you want to blame an American or America for the current Jihad, which is historical nonsense, then blame Jimmy Carter. If he hadn't overthrown the Shah, none of this would have happened.

I blame Carter for being such an idiot. However, only an idiot can blame the US for a racist and homicidal religion of robbers, murders and child molesters that started 1400 years ago.

Conservative Swede said...

Laine:
Only here with the usual skewing by the usual Russophiles could the pronouncement by some two bit Russian official propaganda spokesman be elevated to any importance whatsoever in the Mumbai equation.

This comment is directed directly at Baron Bodissey. There's no one else who brought up the comment by Vladimir Klyukin, the Afghan war veteran. So according to Laine the Baron is the "usual Russophile" here that is skewing the Mumbai equation (that's Laine's opinion, I think the Baron wrote a very good article).

With such a hefty attack, including the name-calling, on this site, I think it would have been prudent by Laine to actually name the object of his attack: Baron Bodissey.

Conservative Swede said...

Oh vey,

While I spend my time following the events of the world, feeding the Baron with important news articles, engaging in serious discussion, Czechmade, Laine and their kind engage in loud and simplistic mudslinging, attacking me and Baron Bodissey and almost anything that moves, making serious and nuanced debate here impossible.

It's the same old simplistic and emotional spin that is always applied: to associate in every way today's Russia with the USSR of the past, presenting them as effectively identical. This is presented with the same intellectual honesty as when leftists attack America. Heap as much mud as you can per time unit, never answer any direct questions, just move the position and sling a new load of mud. Nevermind mind internal contradictions in the spin, never stop for analysis, it's just supposed to serve as mud, just keep on slinging it; any mud that can be found. And make sure to only speak of the past, of the USSR times, thereby conditioning the association Russia = USSR. Avoid any comments about what's happening in the present. Just keep repeating the past.

I find it interesting the symmetry of discussing America with pro-European left-wingers, and discussing Russia with pro-American right-wingers. Any fact-based nuanced discussion is totally thrown out the door. And quite as anything positive said about America in the one context is met with hysterical reactions of how it signifies support for the "Capitalist murderers", here anything positive said about Russia is said to signify denial of the crimes of the USSR, denial of the Gulag, and similar absurdities.

Nevermind what was really said, just turn up the volume! Just keep attacking any positive comment about Russia, make sure to bully the people who said it. That will make most decent people stay away from discussing Russia, the mob mentality of these threads are indeed not inviting; so they will prefer to stay silent. Mission accomplished by Czechmade, Laine and Zenster.

And quite as with the anti-American liberals, these people (Czechmade, Laine, Zenster, Bela, etc.) behave completely normal and sensible until you touch their sore area, their object of hate, at which point it becomes as pouring water on Gremlins, resulting in virtual spasms of mudslinging, name-calling, childish "you toos", endless sequences of contradiction and loud-mouthed bullying.

Czechmade said...

Homophobic Horse

Wrong:

"Pure Marxist-Leninism. "The interests of socialism are above the rights of nations to self determination."

Yes, but the same Soviet bookshop provided plenty of Chekhov, Pushkin,
Lermontov, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Gogol etc. books.

Which I enjoyed. But should be not there...remember Zensters talk of reciprocity.

Reciprocity is a principle you practice on daily basis. In comments you cancell it?

Every teenager or teacher at school knew what was to be promoted. And suddenly we get balanced minds from the West to tell us otherwise. It is how media power works - similarly.

Simplify and spread the "knowledge".

Czechmade said...

CS???

"until you touch their sore area, their object of hate"

The mistake must be in the eye of the beholder. You solved the problem of islam. Congratulations.

Appointing the governors after Beslan - no reaction.

Praising of Soviet Union by Putin -
no reaction.

Aknowledgement of 2 failed states by gradually annecting superpower - no reaction.

CS praising Bismarck for including liberal/socialist agenda in his project. Refuted - No reaction.

Sign this:

The free debate with CS is possible, if you accept/respect fully his dogmas and tabus. In other words it is not possible, since everybody not following his rigid approach is "hysterical".

I can say some outright non-sense and narcistically count all people who disagree "being hysterical".

Being deaf, blind and convinced of myself I can endlessly wonder at others reactions. I am self-righteous perpetuum mobile.

---------

BTW I always provide facts and quotes, so that those who may disagree can learn something apart from disagreeing.
Writing pure essays is pointless.

Czechmade said...

What is interesting about CS is his repeated suggestions that "we attack Baron". It is like a party politics in making. The leader might be offended and a prominent party member to increase his significance protects generously the leader in front of our eyes.

From my experience I know that opposing a would be leader has a positive effect and creates an equality status. Many times I promoted myself by disagreeing with someone. It is the way to allow all sides their part in the intellectual breething. A person seemingly always in agreement with the "leader" (who is not authoritarian, but simply human) becomes a danger to his work and integrity. It is also hard to remember what might be this loyal person about. The person may become something like a toothbrush or a towel. But also something like a grey emminence...taking slowly all the "burdens" from the shoulders of the "leader". I am not hinting at our comment section only - I am hinting at my life experience generally. These are possible outcomes quite independently of a country or our Westernness etc.

There are other subconditions:

1) Not to be crazy about winning an argument
2) Knowing that sometimes both sides can be right or wrong
3) Our opinions are not based solely on our personal ("correct") attitudes or intellectual skills - a lot can be wrecked by simple facts ignorance, lack of experience
4) Sense of humor should underline our comments - a technical maintenance of a flexible mind like oiling your car
5) a tenor of friendliness and good will, actually not in contradiction with harsh accusations and principial disagreements
6) a readiness for apologizing (and not just for the ritual effect)
7) the life-long experience that I missed some crucial points
8) the love of learning more - I know that I change my opinions and attitudes while not betraying myself
9) patience with people who obviously do not know - that was my situation as well - in optimal case after getting born
10) in writing we miss a lot of additional language - like smiling, gestures, signs of possible exhaustion or influence of legal drugs/surroundings.

On the whole we might be a guru society with a special accent on learning.

Baron Bodissey said...

George Bruce --

I'm not blaming the USA. I'm stating a single, somewhat uncomfortable fact: the United States may well have provided the early mujahideen with training and resources helped them in the attack on Mumbai more than twenty later. This may or may not be significant.

But IMHO, this lesson could have applications today. We are currently training hundreds of thousands of devout Muslim troops in Iraq and Aghanistan, and supplying them with sophisticated weaponry. Given past experiences with the mujahideen, is this really a good idea?

Virtually the entire West is helping to arm and train "Palestine", under the delusion that doing so will help create a viable, modern, peaceful state.

We need to start learning from our mistakes.

Baron Bodissey said...

Czechmade --

The leader of this blog is not offended. I like for my ideas to be attacked. I like to see heated argument. It's proof that the people who read and post here are not mindless drones.

What I am offended by is name-calling. Telling other people that they are stupid or deranged does not add weight to an argument. Nobody is convinced to change his mind by an ad hominem attack.

This is especially egregious given that there is no "heat of the moment" in this forum. Everyone has time to consider carefully what they write and proofread it before before clicking the "publish your comment" button. So there's no excuse for being gratuitously offensive.

Those who wish to convince others of the value of their reasoning will use other methods. I can only conclude that obnoxiously insulting comments are posted with other ends in mind.

Because I hate to delete comments and derail a conversation, I put up with a lot of behavior that pushes the edges of our rules, but I don't like it.

Homophobic Horse said...

"the United States may well have provided the early mujahideen with training and resources helped them in the attack on Mumbai more than twenty later. This may or may not be significant."

But they did do this. Under the veil of "plausible deniability". I remember watching documentary's about Operation Cyclone in the late 90s, back when it was still okay to regard the mujahideen as romantic desert warriors.

Vetri Pandit said...

Pakistan is the hot bed of Jihadi Terror. Whether it was 9/11, or Nuclear leak to Iran, war in Afghanisatan, it has been aiding and abetting terrorism. The world has been fooled by the double speak of its government and Miltary. ISI is the root of global terrorism.

When will the world see the truth and get rid off the root cause of terrorism!

These people also killed Daniel Pearl a guy who was also on the trail of terrorist who were plotting 9/11!

laine said...

Conservative Swede's comment "until you touch their sore area, their object of hate" is a classic case of pure projection.

He should explain what is behind his intense love for all things Russian and his intense hatred for anyone who criticizes the object of his devotion. Those who criticize have factual information that makes them rational, like the murder of 60 million both Russian and non-Russian by Russians to put in place the Soviet system, the largest blot on humanity to date. How inconvenient for those who want to sweep that under the rug about their idyllic heros. How rational is it to expect salvation for Western civilization from the country that gave a good go at destroying it and everything it stands for within living memory?

Conservative Swede (guess all things are relative since he would not pass for a conservative anywhere else but the far left Sweden) has presented no rational basis for his abject Russophilia and a deep-seated anti-Americanism that often flashes out when you press on his sore spot.

In addition, he actually stooped on this occasion to making the Baron less of a host than he has proven himself, like a child tattling to the teacher in hopes that I and the other witnesses to Russia's depredations be reproved. Oh for Charles Johnson and the banning stick, right CS?

Conservative Swede said...

Laine,

I will just ignore your usual mudslinging. It's too grotesque, absurd and out of touch to even be considered.

But I see you are not man enough to admit your attack on Baron Bodissey as a "usual Russophiles" who is skewing the Mumbai equation by "some two bit Russian official propaganda spokesman" (referring to BB's quoting of the Afghan war veteran).

The mudslinging performed by Laine and others is perfectly like the one I meet whenever I discuss America with left-leaning Europeans. It is not possible to say anything positive about America, to present even a simple fact, without being accused of being intensely in love with everything American etc.

Some concrete examples:

In a discussion about Chile I pointed out the there is no evidence that CIA was involved in the coup in 1973. I simply expressed it in that discrete and factual way, that there is no evidence. But the other guy freaked out completely and started spurting out how I was a fanatical pro-American. The reason he freaked out was that I presented a fact that countered (threatened) his core myths. The same thing happens with Laine and his ilk. Certain facts they see as attacks on their dearest myths and may not be said in their presence. Or they will freak out and go to verbal war.

Before the Iraq war several liberal friends (the usual Europeans) claimed that 500,000 children would die as a consequence of America's invasion of Iraq, because a UN report had said so. Figures from the first Gulf War had been used and extrapolated. I tried to explain to them that deaths due to lack of water and electricity in the First Gulf War was due to the fact that America didn't invade Iraq, but that this would be entirely different this time since America would indeed invade. And that they would then do all in their power to make sure water and electricity worked fine.

But these people were so consumed by their (mythology induced) hate/fear of America that they didn't even hear what I said. In their eyes the American military represented something evil and sadistic. And we see how Laine and his ilk have the same sort of mythology induced hate/fear of Russia; and this accounts for the structural resemblance between them and those Euro-leftism when it comes to reaction and modus operandi.

So as soon as I mentioned how Amrica would invade, they could only imagine how things would get worse. I was sitting, on more than one occasion, in the middle of a ring of such people, trying to explain that the nature of America is that it does things out of good intension and idealism, and that even their big mistakes are accounted for by that. You can imagine the cacophony.

I will continue to bring up facts about Russia. And yes, I find them especially interesting if they counter the myths of the America-led West. So Laine and others will continue to freak out and behave in this outrageous way. I guess we just have to learn to live with it.

We live in times of very strong mythological chauvinism, bordering Jingoism, going into different extremes. Therefore anyone trying to take a fact-based moderate position is bound to get attacked from both sides in the most hysterical ways. So in that world of mudslinging I become both a fanatical pro-Zionist as well as a vicious anti-Semite; as well as a fanatical pro-American as a devoted Russia-lover. Etc.

It all happens inside the minds of people.

laine said...

I have done nothing that anyone remotely fair minded could call mud-slinging, and the main Russophile on this site is Conservative Swede, not the host who does not hysterically repel anything unflattering to Russians.

Conservative Swede is proving himself misnamed when he uses classic leftist techniques of wish fulfilment and repetition (If it's said enough times, people will start to believe it's true...) and misdirection. Instead of going off on a long irrelevant tangent about how he once defended America (again drawing a non-existent equivalence between the US and Russia) he would have better spent the time giving concrete examples of why Russia and its present true leader former KGB agent Putin deserve any trust or credence as a source of wisdom for the survival of Western civilization. They are over-qualified to give lessons on the opposite - how to destroy the crux of Western civilization which is the individual soul and equal rights before the law.

If the idea is to fight Muslim totalitarianism with Russian totalitarianism as Putin rehabilitates Stalin and his approach, that's not the direction he's taking at all. Putin takes out any Muslims making trouble for him like the Chechens, but elsewhere uses terrorist acts to blame the US, thus encouraging the Muslim meme that they are reacting to injustice. Some terrorist fighter.

Incidentally, can anyone imagine a former CIA agent as POTUS? And the CIA on its worst day had nothing on the KGB's penchant for "disappearing" people, Putin's alma mater. CS should stop trying to normalize and even idealize a highly aberrant regime.

At least he should stop routinely demeaning and maligning those who have first hand experience with his beloved Russian regimes and beg to differ from his rosy (pink?) picture. I have traveled in both the Soviet Union and Russia and have no hatred for individuals of Russian background, but as a nation they have not come to terms with their recent history as the Germans did. Until then, they owe a certain moral debt to the victims of communism and are certainly not the paragons CS makes them out to be.

As a true conservative, I think CS misguided. As an occult leftist, CS must label those disagreeing with him on his pet topic evil and unworthy of speaking.