Sunday, October 19, 2008

A Tribute to Jörg Haider

Our Austrian correspondent ESW was at watched Jörg Haider’s funeral yesterday, and sent this report to us in memoriam.


A Tribute to Jörg Haider
By ESW


Jörg HaiderA little more than a week has passed since Austrians woke up to the news of Jörg Haider’s death. And it is still very difficult to comprehend the loss of this man whose death has caused Carinthia to lapse into a collective ocean of tears. Thousands of red and white candles, even more flowers, line the streets. Thousands of Carinthians lined up in front of the governments building to pay their respects to Jörg Haider, their beloved governor (and beloved he was, despite MSM commentaries to the contrary), lying in state in a simple casket draped with red roses and a wreath bearing the words of his widow: “With love, Claudia”.

His funeral service took place yesterday, exactly one week after his death, in Klagenfurt, Carinthia’s capital. It was a somber affair, without any disruptions from “right-winged neonazis”, as was feared (and I might add, perhaps even hoped for, as it would have shown Haider’s evil nature). As a matter of fact, the service was attended by almost all members of the caretaker government, the Austrian president, governors from all other Austrian provinces (even Vienna’s mayor, who is provincial governor at the same time as Vienna is also a province, and who is infamous for his hateful words on election night).

What angered me was the attendance of Gaby Schaunig, a member of the Socialist party and former member of Haider’s government, who had staunchly opposed anything and everything Haider ever said and did. She left the government prior to the elections, saying that she could no longer tolerate working with Haider. She explained that she no longer wanted to be insulted on a daily basis. Why would someone like Schaunig attend the funeral of someone she so obviously hated? I would have respected her decision to refrain form attending more than her attendance. She is a hypocrite.

At least the Greens had the guts to stay away from the funeral. Not one member of the Green party attended. While this was also a snub to the politician Jörg Haider, I respect their decision. Perhaps — no, surely — it is much better for Austria if the Greens never become part of a coalition government. Imagine if they were forced by protocol to attend a funeral of a man or woman they so obviously dislike?

Saif al-Islam Gaddafi could also be seen in the crowd. He embraced Haider’s widow, Claudia, for a long time. Neither Le Pen nor Filip Dewinter attended the funeral service. No reason was given.

To return to the service: more than a million Austrians watch the live TV coverage, watching as friends and foe describe their feelings about Jörg Haider. Traditional Carinthian music is sung by a student choir; some tearful faces can be seen. Haider’s mountaineering friend, Teddy Inthal, speaks first, “The sun has fallen from the sky, the sun that Haider tried to reach all his life! His death is an error!”

Following these personal words, former minister of justice, Dieter Böhmdorfer, takes the podium to describe the political being of Jörg Haider. Uwe Scheuch, a long-time friend of Haider, describes his son’s reaction to the governor’s death, “Our governor cannot die!” Scheuch adds, “Jörg, we will take good care of your Carinthia!”

The following rendition of the song “Ich glaube” (I believe) by a popular Austrian singer-songwriter, Udo Jürgens, causes tears to flow freely, even from hard-boiled politicians, who are seen with tissues. Claudia Haider and her daughters also cannot hold back their tears, like the countless mourners lining the streets, watching the service on videowalls.
- - - - - - - - -
After another three more political speeches, caretaker chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer takes the podium for some conciliatory remarks on behalf of the government (and perhaps the socialist party, which hated Haider with a passion since his takeover of the FPÖ in the late 1980s). Gusenbauer calls Haider “an extraordinary man”, who was able to detect inevitable changes that needed to be made. He adds that “the only consoling fact about death is Haider’s ability to reconcile in death that which was irreconcilable in life. As a result of your death, perhaps some of those people will have the courage to come to terms with the human being, the man Jörg Haider. Governor, dear colleague, rest in peace” These words are followed by the Austrian national anthem and, as a deliberate climax to mark the end of the funeral service, the Carinthian anthem.

The official funeral service ends with the celebration of a mass in the Klagenfurt cathedral. Mozart’s Requiem is performed during the mass, again moving attendants to tears. After communion, Claudia Haider personally thanks all well-wishers, who “have offered words of solace on the hard and rocky road of mourning.” She adds, “One must not despair when something is lost for everything is returned in an even more magnificent way.”

Haider’s last destination is the cemetery, where he is cremated at 4 p.m.

This leaves us — Austrians, Carinthians, supporters, critics — without Jörg Haider. While the above words and the tearful description of the funeral service might not be understood by those not residing in Austria and thus unfamiliar with Austrian politics, Haider was truly an asset to the political landscape. For decades, Austrian politics was dominated by SPÖ and ÖVP, either in coalition governments or with a majority government by either party. Austria badly needed a change, and Haider was the one who initiated change.

It was only natural that the ruling parties were wary, especially the SPÖ, whose leader at the time, chancellor Franz Vranitzky, was in charge of the doctrine of ostracism towards Jörg Haider. Ultimately, it was this doctrine that opened the door to the forming of the controversial ÖVP-FPÖ coalition government after the 1999 elections, followed by the EU sanctions against Austria. Vranitzky passionately hated Haider, as did does Werner Faymann, today’s SPÖ leader and chancellor-in-waiting.

To those waiting to hear critical words from me, an Austrian, regarding his controversial positions, I say this:

You want to hear and read a condemnation. What I can say is the following: He admitted his allusions to the Third Reich were wrong, having caused him one of the most painful moments in his life, namely his forced resignation from the position of provincial governor. I agree that these words were more than unwise. However, in my view they did not endanger Austria as a democracy. Following Haider’s words, there were no swastikas blowing in the wind, no Jews deported, no homosexuals beheaded. Haider was young at the time; he learned. He was punished (see above). This case should be closed.

Former chancellor Schüssel was a worthy opponent and pulverized FPÖ and Haider, causing Haider to mellow with time. As Serge Trifkovic notes, when Haider’s FPÖ entered the coalition government in 2000,

[…] Haider’s ambiguous statements on the Third Reich […] ceased to be part of his politically operative vocabulary. On the other hand, his main message — that there are too many foreigners in Austria and that immigration threatens the country’s economy and traditional ethnic composition — is even more valid today than a decade ago. That message is now shared by two parties. One of them (FPÖ) Haider led to national prominence; the other (BZÖ) he created from scratch. They command 29 percent of the electorate between them, but were unlikely to cooperate because of the bitter personal animosity between Haider and the current FPÖ leader and former Haider protégé Heinz-Christian Strache. Ironically, the Austrian nationalist Right may be better poised to achieve unity that has eluded it for years now that its poster boy is no longer with us.

Although I was not in Austria when the government was formed in 2000, and I was unable to watch TV coverage of the demonstrations protesting this government, I still remember my outrage at the EU sanctions imposed on Austria.

Mr. Trifkovic sums up:

The move (the forming of the coalition government ÖVP-FPÖ) nevertheless caused an uproar in Brussels: the European Union decided to impose sanctions on Austria even before the government had announced its program. “There is a lot of excitement in the European chicken pen,” Haider quipped, “and the fox hasn’t even got in.”

This episode merits some attention because it reveals in a raw form the mix of authoritarianism and hypocrisy characteristic of Brussels. On January 31, 2000, the European Union informed Austria that it would face boycott if its new government included the FPÖ. On February 4 Chancellor Schuessel nevertheless went ahead and brought members of the Freedom Party into his coalition. He was acting in full accord with the rules of parliamentary democracy: the new government had a clear majority of 104 out of 183 parliamentary deputies. EU governments duly severed all bilateral political contacts with the Austrian government. They also restricted the promotion of Austrians at EU headquarters and ignored Austrian ministers at EU meetings. The measures also included ban on school trips, cultural exchanges and military exercises. The U.S. joined the bandwagon and the State Department called Ambassador Kathryn Hall back to Washington for “consultations.”

Although the measures had no impact on the lives of ordinary Austrians, they triggered a backlash among the Austrian public. They also caused an outcry in some smaller EU nations — notably Denmark — fearful of the domination of more powerful members, such as France, which pushed for punitive measures. For months thereafter the EU’s Portuguese presidency maintained that the sanctions would remain, but after the EU foreign ministers’ Azores meeting in June 2000 it was obvious that the embargo could not be sustained.

The EU sanctions were illegal because the decision to apply them was taken outside the EU structures and without due process: the Austrian government was not allowed have its point of view heard before the other members states took action against it. The EU action was doubly contentious in view of the fact that Haider’s party was democratically elected and that it had not done or said anything contrary to Austria’s constitution or European law. Even those Austrians not sympathetic to Haider came to see Brussels’ heavy-handedness as an insult to their country.

Not all governments were happy with these sanctions. My father was ambassador to Greece at the time and told me that he did not feel the sanctions in day-to-day business dealings with the Greek government. It seems to me that some EU member states may have been bullied into supporting something they did not agree with. This bullying comes as no surprise. It is standard operating procedure in Brussels.

The first political result of his death was the decision of the ÖVP to start coalition talks right away, ostensibly because of the financial crisis, but those wary of the MSM know better. The conservatives seemingly decided that Haider’s 27-year-old successor, Stefan Petzner, was not the right material to form a government with. The general mood among political commentators is that BZÖ will not survive, and will ultimately merge with FPÖ. FPÖ leader Heinz-Christian Strache has already offered “sanctuary” to BZÖ MP’s.

Stefan Petzner, Haider’s best friend, spokesman and protégé, is already being denounced by the MSM and political opponents. I believe that he should be given a chance to prove himself even though newspaper commentators are already calling for Haider’s widow to take charge of the party. Petzner could and should be taken seriously, at least by us in the Counterjihad movement, because he clearly knows what is at stake regarding Islam. He was quoted as saying that one of his foremost goals is to stop the creeping Islamization of Austria.

As I have said before, Austrians are in for interesting political times.

28 comments:

Zenster said...

Dear ESW,

Please accept my condolences upon the loss of Georg Haider. I cannot thank you enough for—what is certainly—a far more valuable insight into the life of this man as opposed to the rampant conspiracy theories that have recently dotted GoV’s landscape. You have succeeded in putting a human face on—what can only be described as—a controversial figure.

Personally, I am left to consider the irony of an encounter with two young Austrian tourists I crossed paths with in Silicon Valley, some months ago. My curiosity was piqued as I heard these two women conversing in what was clearly not German nor Dutch but also not any Scandinavian language that is so familiar to me.

I asked where they were from and they responded, “Austria”. Taking great liberties, I mentioned how peculiar it has turned out that Georg Haider may well have been quite ahead of his time in identifying the problems now confronting Austria, and Europe in general, with respect to unrestricted immigration. Even though I really didn’t expect any sort of detailed answer, their total lack of response struck me as odd. I put it down to the awkward subject and let it go at that.

In a similar vein, I wonder if you could provide some sort of personal insight as to why:

Neither Le Pen nor Filip Dewinter attended the funeral service. No reason was given.

To hell with Filip, what about Susanne Winter? Did she attend, or is she personna au gratin on the political scene?

EU governments duly severed all bilateral political contacts with the Austrian government. They also restricted the promotion of Austrians at EU headquarters and ignored Austrian ministers at EU meetings. The measures also included ban on school trips, cultural exchanges and military exercises.

Q’elle surprise!

They also caused an outcry in some smaller EU nations — notably Denmark — fearful of the domination of more powerful members, such as France, which pushed for punitive measures.

How curious that Denmark—a vehemently anti-Nazi nation—would nonetheless understand and anticipate the soon-to-arrive totalitarianism so favored by the EU.

The EU action was doubly contentious in view of the fact that Haider’s party was democratically elected and that it had not done or said anything contrary to Austria’s constitution or European law.

Since when has that deterred the scum in Brussels?

Finally, on a personal note, thank you so much, ESW, for taking great pains to make my Austrian visit such a wonderful experience. Over lunch or dinner with an Ambassador or Trade Legate, the opportunity to exchange ideas and opinions with such politically aware people was of immense value to me and constituted the most important counter-jihad portion of my recent European tour. For that, I cannot thank you enough.

Soon, I hope to post an article at GoV dealing with my own perceptions regarding the shift in political climate within Europe. I would be grateful for any reflections that you might provide at that time.

Again, with heartfelt sympathies upon the loss of your fellow countryman.

Sincerely,

Zenster

Natalie said...

Interesting. I was hoping you would contribute something like this, ESW.

On another note, how hilarious will it be to see LGF & Co. freak out about this? The fact that this post is titled "A Tribute to Jorg Haider" is going to cause a great uproar, I predict.

AmericanObserver said...

As an American who is not all that familiar with Austrian politics, I found this analysis to be very interesting and insightful. The U.S. media's view of Mr. Haider is rather two-dimensional -- almost cartoonish. It's evident that Mr. Haider's political views and activities were far more intellectually potent than that, and helps explain why he was so popular in his home province for so many years, plus influencing the thinking on immigration. Now the press seems to be focusing in on the "gay nightclub" angle to his death. I don't care at all about Haider's sexuality -- it just seems so unimportant in the 21st Century.

Czechmade said...

I see you are badly in need of an hero. This article somehow reminds me of communist glorifications.

Haider visited 3 times Saddam Hussein and developped special initiatives towards other Arab regimes. They were dictators so they certainly did not mind his stance against "foreigners". Both sides minded happily their own business.

I guess his special relationships to those dictators made him powerful in his province by getting strange contracts benefitting his turf. The provincial people at home did not ask much about various exotic matters as human rights versus contracts. He protected them from local evil Brussels called Vienna as well. Yes, Carinthians were victims just like our muslims and needed someone to console them.

This made them perpetually unpolitically emotional, while multi-culti thrived arrogantly in bigger centers like Vienna, it was given to oppose both and create a face of his own. A battle of true wizards. And yes, the Viennese could get slowly jealous of this provincial freedom...

So he could feed the local vox populi in both directions - with good and evil. Like Sarkozy in fact. Too far away from EU he had to crack the same jokes in opposite direction (anti). Being closer to EU, he would persue the policies of EU in the name of Austria/France and contact more or less the same Arabs. The key to Mr. H. is not "his ideas" but "his Carinthia".

But remember - he thrived on people (nations) we oppose. His idea might be sort of very clean Switzerland devoid of dirty people and thriving on dirty businesses around the world.

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade:
I see you are badly in need of an hero. This article somehow reminds me of communist glorifications.

Nice smearing attack on ESW and the Baron. And it is purely a smearing attack since it's not backed up, and in fact cannot be backed up (What parts of this tribute would be specifically "communist" and not just generic praise? Has Czechmade the idea that tributes only existed under communism?)

So whatever you wanted to say in the rest of your comment, Czechmade, you lost your audience for having a failed attitude already in the first sentence.

Henrik R Clausen said...

What Czechmade, who elsewhere makes some really interesting comments, does here is to take his own interpretation as fact, and attack that. It's mindreading and strawman argumentation, and frequently a fine basis for the most heated flame wars.

Yes, we know about Haiders' contacts with people we now consider evil. Probably a mistake. But not exactly the kind of mistakes to bring up in context of his funeral. Also, Austria has a tradition for neutrality that makes these contacts more likely, and lots of other Dear Leaders of the West have plenty of contacts with dictators of all kinds, especially those that have money and oil. Sarkozy, for one.

For sure, Haider made his share of mistakes. But in the end, he might become known as the man who saved the Austrian nation-state in face of a sea of indifference from the mindless establishment.

Czechmade said...

Mindless establishment might have lived in total harmony with Haider providing useful links and contracts
with islamic regimes. Pro forma they took some distance at pleasure.

This way we define a saviour as a man who gets support in the muddy world outside the West, gets thus some sort of independence and does his job.

I read in German and can assure you that the Austrian reactions from Corinthia and his party suggest the highest degree of centralization and total helplessness following the loss of the leader.

Those folks seem to be like sheep.
Haiders ad hoc decisions cannot be replaced by some consistent policy.
Obviously there never has been one.

People who cannot care for themselves however high their positions may be are socialist or communist sheep.

This exactly we oppose. Or should we change our approach and fight islamic, leftist sheep with an equivalent?

Haider was a "good son of evil parents" can you sense the irony? Something we cannot grasp in our countries never benefitted by a nazi regime. We do not understand the consolation prepared to the Austrian psyche by such a good son.


Do we want to inherit all these specifically Austrian things?

P.S. I do not use the "right populist" term. Most readers on this web know so little about Haider, that mourning for him is almost irrelevant.

Let us be patient, one day we pick up real heroes - an endless source of mental benefits.

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade,

If you make a smearing attack, you should at least pretend that you can and intend back it up.

So leaving the "communist" part of your smear aside for the moment, where is ESW even glorifying Haider? Give us just one example!

Let us be patient, one day we pick up real heroes - an endless source of mental benefits.

Unlike you we are not looking for heroes; just for a practical way through. If you are going to wait for perfect, you'll have to wait until to come to Heaven.

Czechmade said...

Sorry, I expect "the imperfect" not to meet repeatedly Saddam Hussein or the Qaddafis. Maybe it is too much?

In my deislamization program there is no place for hugging Qaddafi or welcoming Qaddafi with a sign Klagenfurth in Arabic.

The same guy strongly opposed the bilingual signs for his Slowenian cocitizens villages in Corinthia.

We get more supporters every second, so why to cede to little establishment possibly embedded quite well in larger Austrian establishment? We become very cheap with one stroke.

Haider would remove poor muslims and bring rich ones. The streets of Austria would look better (get your votes), the entanglement of the Austrian politics with the muslim money would be much worse (get your money). Do you buy it?

The Arabs understand this kind of seemingly good business for kafirs quite well and are ready to look away. Should we do the same?

Haider was as hungry for dubious businesses as any other member of the establishment we despise..

Henrik R Clausen said...

Maybe it is too much?

Yeah. The French president is not an inch better :(

Jokes apart, Western leaders meet with various dictators at an alarming rate, not taking care to think about stuff like 'promoting democracy'. Sure, Saddam was a scumbag, and a royal pain to his neighbours. But at least he was a fairly secular one, who was not trying to undermine Western civilization by a network of anti-democratic institutions.

Our leaders make mistakes, just as any other human. The best of the leaders learn from their mistakes, promise not to repeat them, and in the best of cases work to do the opposite of the mistakes they made.

Czechmade said...

"But at least he was a fairly secular one, who was not trying to undermine Western civilization by a network of anti-democratic institutions."

Not quiet true. Google Obama and Tony Rezko a Syrian who assisted him to become a senator (now in jail)with links to Saddams banker Aunchi. These are cases just in the spotlight...

Saddam financed atttacks on Israel.
Did Haider ask Saddam to stop them?

Saudi linked Western convert al-Mansour looked after Obamas admission at Harvard law school.

To come to some minimum agreement, we can say only that Joerg Haider did some good damaging PC speech.

But he did so with no clear strategy - moreorless like an irresponsible teenager.

P.S. The secret of Mohamad is that he pursued his purely secular goals in the name of religion. That means for ex. that Kosovo Albanians did a slow steady ethnic cleansing of Kosovo using an old islamic method without having to think of or refer to islam...

Fatah or Saddam can be therefore "secular" as well and use leasurely the old methods thought in Holy Q.
- the society around them is imbibed with them.

Saddam, Mohammad, Obama - wounded figures growing without their biological fathers.

Mike from Brooklyn said...

I just signed on. Checking to see if this works. If it does I will have a lot to say.

Mike from Brooklyn

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade,

All these words, and still not even an attempt to back up your smear against ESW and Baron Bodissey, where you compare this tribute to "communist glorification".

Don't fall in the trap of Bela and the crypto-Nazis, where they start of with saying outrageous things and then play martyrs, associating the reaction to that to other unrelated things.

If we are going to follow the logic of these outraged and outrageous people, Baron Bodissey is both hysterically anti-FPÖ as well as naively pro-FPÖ at the same time (vile anti-Semite and fanatical pro-Zionist at the same time, evil racist and useless liberal wimp at the same time, etc.). Just recently we had Western Initiatives fantasizing about how Baron Bodissey was totally anti-FPÖ, in a situation paralleled by your own actions here, in which he jumped to this conclusion based on sound reactions to his outrageous and patently false statements (quite as with you here).

You may have noticed that I have had no objections about criticizing Haider's Saddam connections. This is definitely something that should be criticized. But when you make outrageous and patently false claims that GoV posts "communist glorifications", that becomes the issue. Until you either support your claim or back off from it.

You are better than this, Czechmade.

Mike from Brooklyn said...

I find this piece by ESW problematical to say the least. And sad. Very sad that he is covering up for an anti-Semite. The fact that he says Haider wasn't deporting Jews, et. al toward the end of his piece I guess was intended to be sarcastic and cute, but it's just lame.

If you folks defending ESW haven't forgotten, Haider was an anti-Semite. In an article in the Jerusalem Post of Oct. 19, by Benjamin Weinthal, "Austrians Praise Deceased Nazi Admirer Haider" Weinthal points out that in the mid 1990's Haider proclaimed his Freedom Party "to be the PLO of Austria". He also said, [no date given, but it appears to be in mid 90's] that the Waffern SS are/were "decent individuals with character, who stick to their beliefs despite strong opposition and remain true to them today as well." And on he goes. This is not anti-Semitic?

Well, but that was then, conveniently tucked into some corner now. So let's see, what about now? Did the leopard Haider change his stripes? Well not only did Haider have a relationship with Saddam and Gaddafi as one of the commentors pointed out, and as someone else seems to think is not so much of a big deal because everyone was doing it, (hey that's why Europeans are Europeans) but Haider was happy to receive an Iranian economic delegation from Iran in the summer of 2007 when the EU (I dispise them like everyone who reads this site, but occassionally even if by accident they do the right thing), and the United States was discouraging trade with Iran because of their enrichment of uranian program. Now Haider knew where the first Iranian bomb was going to drop, but true to his past leanings, he could care less about who it was going to drop on, the Jews.

But that's just a European doing European type business, right?

More from the same article by Mr. Weinthal: "He [Haider]demanded the 'responsible warmongers' in Israel during the Second Lebanon War in 2006 be summoned before a war crimes tribunal, and that Austria evict the Israeli Ambassador in Vienna." He also said of Ariel Muzicant, the head of the Austrian Jwewish Community, that she was a "Zionist provacatuer in the west", who wanted to silence criticism of Israel, with "the club of anti-Semitism." Now maybe ESW and some of theose commenting here, want to pretend that that doesn't reek of anti Jew bias, but facts are facts. Just because ESW doesn't want to interfer with the staged funeral of Haider, with the flowers, with Mozart, a regular European operetta, doesn't change the truth.

One more quote from the Weinthal column, columnist Gudrun Harrer in a left liberal paper in Austria, Der Standard, put it pretty well when she said of Haider, "many Arabs considered Haider, 'the Lion'". That's the thing about Arabs who hate Jews, they say what they want to say, they don't have ESW tip toeing around for them.

It's too bad about Haider. A good looking chap, strong on preventing Islamization in Europe, but still anti-Semitic. Just what the hell did the Jews do to him? And why the hell is ESW covering for him?

One of the commentors asks: "When is ESW glorifying Haider? Give me just one example." Let's just say this sir, his whole article is set up like a painted picture, within a beautiful cathedral, with Mozart's Requiem in the background. He reports on the glorification of Haider, not as a reporter, but as an admirer. Everything is soaked with admiration. His toughest statement against Haider stinks like a rotten fish, that Haider "admitted his allusions to the Third Reich were wrong." His allusions? Stop making me laugh. Maybe that cuts it in Sweden or wherever you are from (I'm sorry I forgot who said what, apologies) but not in Brooklyn where I come from. We have the no bull spit rule where I'm from.

Regarding Filip DeWinter I followed the Baron's links on him several months back, and discovered that DeWinter was not only not an anti-Semite, he was pro Israel, and had several interviews to prove it. So as regards why he wasn't at Haider's funeral, I guess he didn't want to associate with an anti-Semite. As for why to my knowledge he hasn't made any (major) public statement, he is in a bit of a quandry. He can't seem to be a supporter of Haider and have his decency credentials challenged, and he also can't blow away Haiders supporters, because like them jor not, they are part of the fight against the creeping Islamization of Europe. Being one of the leaders of a cause sometimes involved walking a narrow line.

Mike from Brooklyn

Czechmade said...

ConSwede I said "it reminds me somehow". The article reminds me also of Monty Python. I went through it again. Yes, it is mainly the diction of the article, heavy deja vue.

Remember that leftists and rightists might sometimes write the same. Still being very proud not to be the other one.

And yes, the article is not particularly communist. I trust BB, he needs more time to grasp what is modern Austria like: it is a matter of luck to get a good source and BB has no means to go through hundreds German articles to find one to his satisfaction/level. What I read in German pro-FPO sounds rather ridiculous.
I have never come across an article worth translating.

BB wants the non-leftist forces to unite. It makes sense. But J.Haider thrived on the opposite - never missing an opportunity to attack this or that one around Austria/Carinthia to get some points.

O.K. We probably never went to get some votes - we cannot understand fully the awkward business of collecting the votes...for ex. in Austria. Vote collectors speak a special language, we need an extra translator!

Being pro- and anti- at the same time is not a problem.

Conservative Swede said...

The comparison of ESW's article with communist style propaganda has at least finally been dropped.

But the description of ESW's article as a glorification of Haider is maintained, and now Czechmade got support from Mike from Brooklyn.

Both are constitutionally unable to provide any examples of course. The reason far that is simple: there simply is no glorification in that article.

Both Mike and Czechmade consider reference to their inner fantasies to be enough "evidence". Grown and made in a liberal mindset, they consider the mere accusation of "glorification", coupled with their display of upset and offended emotions, as enough "evidence".

I guess it is as with the new law in Norway in which where anyone accused of racism is already guilty unless he can prove otherwise. The reverse burden of proof. Deranged liberalism in a nutshell. And these people are even too arrogant to grasp that they are erring.

There is an important debate to be held about Haider and his flaws. And we are holding these debates here at GoV continuously. And ESW is also inviting to it in her very modest tribute to Haider. But the high-pitch in which Czechmade and Mike present their comments overshadows any good debate.

The thing with Haider is this: We all have our doubts regarding him; so does ESW. He's done and said several things that are obnoxious. But hardly more, after all, than the ruling elites of Western Europe. But unlike them he firmly stands on the side of his people, and that's the quality that makes him interesting, both in and outside of Austria.

In the election of 1999 FPÖ got close to 30%, and now once again for FPÖ/BZÖ. These are hard facts (even though you-know-who are bent on seeing it as a "glorification" to present such figures).

I would have preferred to see different positions on Israel, Iran, Iraq etc. from BZÖ and FPÖ. But we should not get our shorts too much in a twist over that, since hardly any big difference from the established elites on that.

No matter how you shake it, Haider did a major achievement in forwarding the cause of the defence of the Austrian people. Of course he was a real world figure, and partly obnoxious and sometimes even embarrassing -- but he was just that: real! And the idea of Baron Bodissey seems to be that we should at least consider the support of the real figures -- as opposed to ideological fantasy creatures of perfection.

So let the discussion continue. Nothing is written in stone. And this is exactly why the Baron posted this. You see, if you would hold a gun to Baron Bodissey's head and say: "Decide now once and for all, do you support Haider/FPÖ/BZÖ or not?" The Baron would have answered with his heart and say "no". But luckily enough, the Baron does not have a gun to his head, and he's got the understanding of how real things beat ideological dreams, so he keeps an open mind about Haider and posts things as the above.

Czechmade wrote:
I trust BB, he needs more time to grasp what is modern Austria like

Did you hear that Bodissey? You need to learn more about Europe!

Eliyana said...

Thank you ESW, for your wonderful coverage of the funeral, and your beautiful tribute. Since he died, my world has stopped. I am not only Carinthian, but his loss has hit us particularly hard as we have lost not just our governer but also a friend of the family. Particularly, reading the MSM who have been having a field day for the main stream media who are painting him as some sort of evil monster has been painful. Apart from an obituary in the Economist, your tribute was the only non-austrian article that presented a more realistic view of him, and for that I am grateful. He is sorely missed, both politically and personally. (And for the record, I am a Jewish Social Democrat, so not everyone grieving for him is some sort of right wing monster as the MSM would have us believe).

Czechmade said...

ConSwede, do not be an ideologue.

"It reminds me" means I refer to the niveau and style.

You force me into a PC speech. We decided to drop PC strait jacket, which makes this blog very attractive...

We EUropeans know very little about Europe. Any American willing to go to the details is admirable and can beat us generally within few months of hobby studies.

European comments on this blog display absolute intellectual helplessness as to define basic strategic ideas outside the frame of the West not "liberated" by the Soviets.

The Americans display a patience knowing they are learning from the scratch. Israelis are even better.

They know for ex. the importance of the Munich Treaty 1938 for the European mindset. And are scared to death to be the victim of the same.

If you knew about this mindset, you would never throw Ukraine over the board in one sentence. You would start considering available strategic alliance instead.

Same for Afonso, he creates a discourse which implies that according to his hazy ideas "we belong to the Eastern europe".
1000 years of history cancelled.

Then he cares for me by thinking "I might be offended". Afonso, do not care for me, care not to throw some nation over the board simply because you know zero just like the Western clowns in 1938. Those clowns threw over the board the most modern Czechoslovak army closely linked to the French defence system, donating for free all
our weapon industry and military assets to Hitler.

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade,

ConSwede, do not be an ideologue.

Who's the ideologue? You are the one offended by people grieving the death of Haider. I think Zenster made the best characterization of ESW's tribute "You have succeeded in putting a human face on—-what can only be described as—-a controversial figure". His time of death is a moment for some perspective. But not to the ideologues. To them any admission of a human side of Haider is offensive, even in a moment like this.

"It reminds me" means I refer to the niveau and style.

Niveau and style are real things that can be exemplified. But your only examples are of your inner fantasies. So the phrase "communist glorification" only tells something about you, and nothing about the article by ESW.

European comments on this blog display absolute intellectual helplessness as to define basic strategic ideas outside the frame of the West not "liberated" by the Soviets.

You are in hyper-spin mode and need to spin down. Your characterization of European comments in general in this blog is entirely unreal and absurd. We have already victimization-Bela who is perpetually complaining about how it is forbidden to criticize Russia in this blog. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny. What you seem to share with Bela is that you cannot stand any positive remark about Russia, even if it just comes from a minority. Even one such remark is one too many, and you describe it as if the whole world is against you (and we have a parallel in your allergy against comments about a human side of Haider here).

And "Soviets". You are really having nightmares about communist ghosts all the time don't you? And find them everywhere. Last time it was "Saudi style Russia", this time it's "Soviets". Very balanced...

They know for ex. the importance of the Munich Treaty 1938 for the European mindset. And are scared to death to be the victim of the same.

So how come then the Americans fed the Islamic crocodile with Kosovo? And mind you, while Chamberlain's move was defensive, out of a position of weakness, this act of thuggery was entirely created by the Americans.

If you knew about this mindset, you would never throw Ukraine over the board in one sentence.

I follow the news of Ukraine carefully and I know it's history. You should pay more attention to this and less attention to Soros propaganda.

Throwing Ukraine "over the board"... It's like saying that I'm throwing Serbia over board for opposing Western arrogant and hyper-ideological meddling there. A truly absurd statement. You appear to know nothing about neither Ukraine nor Serbia. Or maybe you are just drunken on the Soros Kool-Aid.

Czechmade said...

Hatred of the West is the official propaganda in Russia right now and people enjoy it. You are in the same situation like someone expecting benefits from muslims for no reason . Soviet stuff was an intermezzo based on much older traditions. You may cancell the soviet stuff and get the same results. Surprized?

We kicked Soros from Prague with his "university", he is now doing his Soros job in Budapest. It was the lack of interest in the West (and I like to blame the educated citizens more than some politicians) which made room for mister Soros in so many countries. The absolute lack of strategic thinking besides business class. Now the business falls in love with Ukraine (big market) and Ukraine keeps drifting steadily westwards. It is hard work which is more pending towards democracy - not the Russian Saudi style with oil and gas and weapon industry as bonus. And Saudi drill of citizens.


Our middle management of big Western comapnies is in danger to be washed into Ukraine: investitions. You can call them rightly Eastern Europeans only if you know that the West U. was merging with Central Europe for centuries. They are West-friendly.
It is only wise to cultivate this attitude. I repeat: it is wise to cultivate your friends.

There is very little to cultivate in Russian mind. They see themselves as rivals and victims.
They have nightmares about the West
and the Jews. You cannot walk safely into a synagogue in Moscow exhibiting your jewessness, you may be attacked for being American as well and my US friends in Moscow try to hide their true identity in public. You cannot make jokes about Russians being a foreigner or criticize this or that.

If you like to cultivate rocky lands - good luck with it - but it is beyond my comprehension why the next fertile spot does not appeal to you.

It would be quite easy by analogy to play your victimization card with you: Hey why are you so scared of pooor muslims? They just do their jobs and are friendly if you shout salam alaikum sincerely. Why nightmares? Every abrahamic religion is fine with us.
They just go to the mosque and pray a bit. They are a bit emotional. So what? Like Italians or Spaniards.

Or: Why don´t you go where you naturally belong - to your Brussels abode? Why don´t you stand as a loyal EU soldier expecting your hypereuropean orders? Why do you dance some exotic afro-arctic dances? Enjoy being EUropian. EUtopians must stand united, otherwise Mr. China will eat you.

In your Chamberlain weakness you need a big brother? The biggest (comfort) possible? Then Russia is a right product nicely packed by Putin out of love for you.

A Russian visited me this summer. He went to Syria recently and he could not find anything wrong with the country. Nothing. Zero. Fine...like Russia. Amazing. some people simply never lack their or others freedom! I felt strongly like treating a handicapped person.

This kind of discussions demonstrate something to the other readers, but for our strategic thinking they mean one thing only: We are stuck, moving 1mm in an hour, unable to define a simple clear strategy usefull to all.

Homophobic Horse said...

Soros media presents the Ukraine famine as a Russian atrocity and not a Soviet atrocity. This is gross revisionism cooked up for entirely political ends.

Ukraine is better with Russia. It's better with the Gangsterism and the Bureaucracy, because Ukraine will at least still exist by the end of the century. Can't say the same if it was 'Westernised' and multiculturalised.

Czechmade said...

I want to teach you connecting the dots:

Ukrainians have a Kozak tradition - protecting the Southern borders against Turkic people for centuries. They could be a strategic asset in protecting Europeans in near future. Reinforcement. And they could do it right only if they have no Russian masters.

The Ukrainians, the Poles - you can easily explain to them what does it mean to you protecting Europe from islamic evil..

The Russians - they cannot differentiate between liberation and conquest. In their mind it is the same.

Back to Haider: there is an epithet running through the German/Austrian press "the feeding hand of Haider" distributing cheques to x,y,z...then
"Bauernsocialismus" Farmersocialism with "national(istic) face". "Uebervater"
like Uebermensch...but Ueber-+++over+++++++father.

It is worse than I expected! This guy applied (most probably) some Hugo Chavezian techniques to win the hearts and minds of his chocolate eating voters.

Think again: "the feeding hand", there is hardly more socialist image than this!

Czechmade said...

Haider in more detail

http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/acta18.htm

Conservative Swede said...

Czechmade,

It is worse than I expected! This guy applied (most probably) some Hugo Chavezian techniques to win the hearts and minds of his chocolate eating voters.

You are failing your European 101 exam again. Which alpine country is it again that is famous for its chocolate?

As for the rest of your rants, I think they have already been sufficiently answered in this and the other thread.

pleas said...

Speaking of Haider, it seems that like former Roman dictator G. J. Caesar, old Jörg was "omnium mulierum virum et omnium virorum mulierem" (to quote Suetonius).

Read the juicy details here:

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/haiders-deputy-reveals-gay-affair-969492.html

Henrik R Clausen said...

From the fine article:

Rumours that Haider was either gay or bi-sexual first surfaced in Austria nearly a decade ago.

Given that he got himself drunk in a gay bar, accompanied by some unknown man, one must say that this rumour is confirmed...

Conspiracy nuts have nothing to hang their hats on. Which is good.

Conservative Swede said...

Regarding the article of Pleas:

In just a few days Stefan Petzner managed to make a complete farce of the party BZÖ. After the death of Haider the raison etre of that party would already be in question. But with the utter ridiculousness of Herr Petzner I'd say its termination is now for sure. Which is probably good, so they can all join under FPÖ.

Czechmade said...

ConSwede, my "rants" and link indicate only that you are on a crossroad. I doubt you could visit Israel with a "I love Joerg Haider" T-shirt...and engage people there in a "fruitful debate". Evidence collected in my link is too hard.

I am more independent-minded, so I can study Haider in detail:

I followed him on youtube concentrating on his talkshows.

Haider is consistent in our sense. He speaks clearly about creeping islamisation and that Austria is open to foreigners generally (which is true) but should be so "under certain conditions" (which is also true). He discussed with very young people - quite stupid and who displayed almost like a Taliban their idiotic dogmatic cliches: racism (pointing to his webside), how the foreigners enrich us etc. In this sense it was not a discussion, it was a ritual of uttering obligatory platitudes. I can imagine how tired are the Austrians of it.

Haider is intellectually however below the niveau of any comentator on this web. His charisma also does not reach a high level. His charisma is rather based on his capacity of merging with the Austrian mind, which clearly could not work with non-Austrians. This is a fundamental weakness and makes of him a provincial EU opposer.

Surprizingly another source indicates Haiders support for Turkey EU membership!!!

Haider and esp. his party people do not indicate any intellectual work leading to some effect worth studying and spreading around.
This lack of binding rules and ideas is something we should definitaly avoid.


They looked more like a museum of 68 fools.