Sunday, September 28, 2008

Did Prehistoric Europeans Invent Wheeled Vehicles?

The Fjordman Report

The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.
For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here.



I have written before about the Indo-European languages, a fascinating window into European and Eurasian prehistory. Proto-Indo-European almost certainly existed as a living language by 3500 BC because it contains words related to wheeled vehicles, which were invented at about this time. The IE expansion began, most likely from the Black Sea region of Southeastern Europe, shortly after this. The PIE language soon started breaking up and was almost certainly dead by 2500 BC, at which point the beginnings of the various IE branches slowly began to emerge. The IE expansion had not yet reached far western, southern or northern Europe at this point. For instance, the people who built Stonehenge in England did not speak an Indo-European language. The Iron Age Celts appeared in the British Isles after Stonehenge had been completed.

There are no written records of the Proto-Indo-European language itself. It was spoken in the fourth millennium BC, when only Sumerian and eventually Egyptian existed as written languages. The first written records of Indo-European languages are of Hittite and Linear B (ancient Greek) from the second millennium BC, at which point PIE had definitely been dead for many centuries. But since comparative linguistics as a science has become quite sophisticated, we can reconstruct, through the later attested Indo-European languages, much of the vocabulary of the PIE language. One of the best books on the subject is The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World by J. P. Mallory and D. Q. Adams, which I haven’t read yet. The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World by David W. Anthony, which I have read, is fascinating. According to Anthony:

Horse Wheel LanguageIndo-European linguists are improving their methods and making new discoveries. They have reconstructed the basic forms and meanings of thousands of words from the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary — itself an astonishing feat. Those words can be analyzed to describe the thoughts, values, concerns, family relations, and religious beliefs of the people who spoke them. But first we have to figure out where and when they lived. If we can combine the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary with a specific set of archaeological remains, it might be possible to move beyond the usual limitations of archaeological knowledge and achieve a much richer knowledge of these particular ancestors. I believe with many others that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was located in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas in what is today southern Ukraine and Russia. The case for a steppe homeland is stronger today than in the past partly because of dramatic new archaeological discoveries in the steppes.

It is likely that peoples of the Eurasian steppes were the first to tame the horse, but the earliest wheeled vehicles were apparently ox-drawn carts. The faster horse-drawn war chariot was developed later and contributed to another phase of the Indo-European expansion. Between 1500-1200 BC you could find horse-drawn chariots in use throughout the entire landmass of Eurasia, from the border regions of Shang Dynasty China via Egypt and Anatolia to Sweden. This corresponds to the period of the ancient Vedas and the emergence of Vedic Sanskrit in India. Peoples speaking Indo-European languages have been attested throughout this area.

The Chinese imported the horse and wheeled vehicles, among other things, from the western regions of Eurasia during the second millennium BC. There were thus contacts across West, Central and East Asia at least a thousand years before what is generally seen as the beginning of the Silk Road. E. E. Kuzmina talks about this in The Prehistory of the Silk Road.
- - - - - - - - -
In The Making of Bronze Age Eurasia, Philip L. Kohl writes about early clay models of disk wheels and remains of wooden wheels and wagons with wooden wheels:

Wheeled ChariotSuch vehicles are among the earliest known examples of wheeled transport found on the Eurasian steppes. They may be roughly contemporaneous with or perhaps a few hundred years later than the now earliest well-documented carts from moors in northwestern Germany and Denmark (Hayden 1989; 1991: ptc. 7; and Häusler 1981; 1994). On current evidence, the diffusion of the technology of wheeled transport may have just as plausibly spread north to south from northwestern Europe with its forests of useable hard woods to the more open steppes to the southeast and then farther south into Mesopotamia as the reverse (cf. Bakker et al. 1999). The important point is not where this revolutionary technology first originated but rather how quickly it diffused across western Asia, Eurasia, and Europe during the Early Bronze period, underscoring the interconnections among disparate cultures throughout this vast area.

It is true that the technology spread quickly, but the earliest evidence is in Europe. It is quite possible that wheeled vehicles, one of the most important technological innovations in human history, were invented by prehistoric Europeans and were associated with the Indo-European expansion. The PIE word for “wheel” relates to words for “to turn, spin” while the words for wheel in Sumerian and Semitic appear to be loanwords from Indo-European. Kohl again:

[I]t is roughly around the middle of the fourth millennium BC that wheeled transport fist appears, stretching across a vast interconnected region from northern Europe to southern Mesopotamia (Bakker et al. 1999). The precise determination of which area or which archaeological culture first developed wheeled vehicles may prove impossible to document archaeologically simply because the technology diffused as rapidly as it did across this vast contiguous area. The question of origins, however, is much less significant than this phenomenon of convergence, this almost simultaneous evidence for the early use of wheeled vehicles stretching from northern Germany and southern Poland south across Anatolia to southern Mesopotamia, beginning ca. 3500 BC or immediately after the collapse of the gigantic Tripol’ye settlements….It is shortly after the introduction of wheeled transport that evidence for its massive utilization on the western Eurasian steppes is documented in the excavation of scores of kurgans containing wheeled carts with tripartite wooden wheels. These were not the chariots of a military aristocracy but the heavy, ponderous carts and wagons of cowboys who were developing a form of mobile Bronze Age pastoral economy that fundamentally differed from the classic Eurasian nomadism that is later attested historically and ethnographically.

35 comments:

Czechmade said...

Fjordman, knowing this well I wonder why we do not assist Iranians in regaining fully their identity.

They knowingly keep a lot, their national pride is built on this and they remember all the kings opposing islamization (Babak).

Much of the early technology and know-how was simply transmitted from Persians/Greeks to the global islamic something. We should unearth all these elements and present them as pre-islamic. Persian lawgivers banned slavery and put women as equal to men. Persians in Europe complain such things are not mentioned in our textbooks. Persians were in this regard more advanced than the Greeks and Romans!

The Persian irrigation systems are still functioning and used for ex. in Egypt. Much of these were destroyed in Iran by Mongol invasion. Unlike the Arabs the Iranians had a taste for technology.

The irrigation wonders in Granada or elsewere in Spain are most probably just this. If it is as I suspect, we should admire Persian skills, not Arab or islamic skills in "islamic" Spain.

Old Persian and Avestic were almost identic with Sanskrit. And even in modern usage Persian and Hindi words overlap showing clearly same roots.

Some Persians consider replacing the Arabic script. However I have never heard of current dearabisation of Persian vocabulary. Something which was given free pass in Modern Turkish - purging the Osmanic Turkish of its unnecessary Arabic/Persian vocabulary and creating neologisms.

With Persian it might be much easier - we have so much material from Middle Persian and Sanskrit.


Look at this:
zanjabīl

Arabic/Persian زنجبیل zanjabīl (Sanskrit. śringgavera), Ginger; wine, especially that which the Muhammadans suppose to be in heaven; a fountain of paradise

Arabized Indoiranian term used in crucial islamic context!

Then the same word used in Persian as well with no islamic/Arabic context:

شنکلیل shankalīl, Ginger.

Let us consider other cultural terms systematically and unearth
the way it was transferred to the "rich islamic culture".

We should engage and encourage Iranians in finding more.Maybe it gets published in Persian only and we miss the flood of dearabization flowing under our noses. In Prague
the Iranians are extremely rare, but in the West I met a lot. I have never met an Iranian with slightest interest in islam. We must use this multiple strategic asset!

Czechmade said...

chakra the Sanskrit word for wheel appears also in the term for ceaser:

chakravartin - rolling everywhere without obstruction m. a ruler the wheels of whose chariot roll everywhere without obstruction, emperor, the sovereign of the word

Afonso Henriques said...

Very good and interesting Fjordman. I only pitty it "tasted to little" (meaning that I would want to know more, and was expecting a little more text).

"For instance, the people who built Stonehenge in England did not speak an Indo-European language. The Iron Age Celts appeared in the British Isles after Stonehenge had been completed."

Be careful. If you look at genetics, something does not go well. Take Ireland as an example. Ireland has little to no tipically genetical "Indo-European" (R1a) genes, the Turks in Central Asia have a considerable amount. Though, the Turks are considered an Asiatic/Mongolic people mixed with the Indo-Europeans and the Irish are considered as the last (and more) Celts.

The official theory is that the Celts were a little minority and thus all of what is now Irish culture is from a colonial elite from Central Asia.
Or you can consider the R1b "gene" as "Celtic", which has a prevalence of some 90% in Ireland and has great prevalence across Western "Celtic" Europe. Considering this, you will have to assert also a continuity between the present "Celtic" Irish and the former "pre-Celtic" constructors of Stonehenge.

And as such, the Irish would have their culture back (and most of Europe). It only means that what became the Indo-Europeans migrated even earlier, that is, the Celts were in Europe before they had created a Celtic culture, the germanics, etc.
Only by putting the Indo-European migrations to Europe (and only Europe) a little back in time, and to consider a faster velocity in the genetic evolution, voila you get a Indo-European Europe instead of an only half Indo-European Eastern Europe.

All this is very tricky...

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Czechmade, I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard that particular derivation. I'm not sure it's true. Caesar was a family name before it became associated with the Roman emperors.

Afonso Henriques said...

Czechmade,

Yes, before the islamic advent, the Persians (Persians, Medes, Bactrians, etc) were "very" Indo-European by any topic available.
The Romans learnt a lot with them.
But this before the islamic advent.

"The irrigation wonders in Granada or elsewere in Spain are most probably just this. If it is as I suspect, we should admire Persian skills, not Arab or islamic skills in "islamic" Spain."

As a "Eurpean Hispanic", well, I'll cut the bullshit, as a Portuguese I can tell that you are right. Many of our "noras" (a system to bring water from sources under the ground) are of a type: "Persian Noras". And this is just an example. Many moorish buildings here are "of the Persian style" though I do not know what that means exactly, nor do I can tell them appart from the other moorish buildings. Moorish Hispanic buildings are very especial, with lots of influences: North African, Persian, European, you will see very few of "middle Eastern like" buildings.

"Some Persians consider replacing the Arabic script"

They have no Arabic script, they have their very own Persian script.

However, I'll now tell you why we cannot save the Iranians or the Afghanis or whoever:

1) We are ourselves at peril;

Second, they are not "Indo-Europeans", not anymore...
I am not saying that there are not some Iranians who are Indo-European but only that they are a minority. And also, Iran is an empire and only a Persian Nation could be safe guarded. You see, the Iranian West is now Turkish, and Arab in a great scale... They live under fierce islamic law to erase the "pagan" past...

We would be better to divide Afghanistan in Nations. The Tajik, the Pashtun, etc.
They are Indo-Europeans as well.

For instance, take the Nuristani people. They look - are - white-European, they have a distinct culture and territory, they do not care about islam, I mean, untill the XIX century their set of believes were an ancient Indo-European believing system. They are called the Kafirs by the muslims. They - I bet - could do a great European Nation in Asia. Why not?

The Asiatic empires (Indo-European) will always look to islam because islam gives them the unity they lack (Pakistan). Only an Indo-European Nation could be "reverted". But considering their aptence for empires, there is not much one can do, and I say one as "European Civilisation". I think India is very Indo-European as well, a clear ally of European Civilisation in this future we're heading to.

I do not want to say in a batalant way that Persians are no good due to race mixing but... They were Indo-Europeans, they are not anymore. Honestly, I think Turkey, Bosnia and even Albania are more Indo-European than them, and that's not why I consider them Europeans. However, high class (non-islamic, of course, Indo-European) Persians, like the Lebanese, are the one of the best immigrants to be accepted in Europe. They will blend in easily, that is true especially for the Lebanese.

What you have, Czechmade, is a mega Nationalist fantasy, like bringing Constantinople back to life. It's impraticable and it will not happen.

These, the Persian and the Constantinople, exemples, show us clearly that once you have crossed an invisible line, there's no way to comeback: You and your Nation and descendents will become for ever Third Worlders.

The Portuguese and the Spaniards are the great exception but remember, the muslims were always a small minority (when they conquered all this, they were only to be a estimated 0.1% of the population) and we took 850 years to get them lost. 850 years of premanent war. All the Peninsula was devastated.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Giving the Persians their identity back? Not a bad idea, actually. They are said to be deserting that invading religion in droves (moving to Christanity - a sign of human decency), which is why the parliament is working to institute capital punishment for doing so, as abandoning Islam would be tantamount to abandoning their current system of government.

The late Shah of Iran (whom I saw twice - great man!) discreetly tried to do the same, but shied away from an open confrontation with the clergy, who eventually managed to bring him down, much to the distress of that exiting country.

Attributing the wonders of 'Islamic' architecture to Persians is an interesting approach. Is there some extensive article about this? I'd forward it to our history magazine to work on.

The Persian script is similar-looking to Arabic, but is different. I used to be able to read parts of it, but have forgotten. Their language, Farsi, is Indo-European in origin.

Re-asserting Persian culture, in combination with a major economical crisis, might have the potential to kick out that invading religion that does the country no good whatsoever.

Afonso Henriques said...

About the Indo European PERSIAN (not Iranian) rennaiscence:

Persian Pride, Islam is my enemy

Iran - Remeber all patriots killed by islamics and leftists

Aryan women under attack

I especially recommend this last video. I love to see the "true Persian" girl kicking the "islamist girl"... it is also short, "cool" and ilucidative. The "Aryan renessaince" exists, they even have their slogans but...

As I have previously said, only a Persian Nation can be protected, not an Iranian empire (Persians are only 50% of Iran and are not the elite). But by their History, I think it's clear they vallue more the Empire than the Nation. That's the problem.

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

Here is another video with better music and that, in my view, conveys the message better (no I'm not referring to the title of the song).

This is Iran of the 70's. Check it out: Googoosh

Western Initiatives said...

Fascinating. Honestly, Fjordman (and some of the commenters) is the only reason GoV is worth visiting. Thank you for publishing him here.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS, I'm sorry I have to disagree. This video is Persians (eh, Iranians) emulating Western culture.

I remember quite clearly how they had trouble finding their way between what came from the West, what was Islam and what was their own culture. But at least the kids at school would learn about H. C. Andersen, even in remote villages.

One of the significant mistakes of the Shah was to give in too much to Western culture rather than reasserting the Persian. At the 2500 year celebration of the Persian kingdom, he held a large party at Persepolis (where else?)

But the cousine was all imported, from France and the finest foreign places, rather than bringing out the best of his own country. That left a deep mark in the mind of the Persians, who came to see him a bit too much as a puppet of foreign interests.

Iran in the 70's was a place of opportunity, and of liberty, at least to some. Women dressed freely, people drank alcohol (sometimes to excess), and even the wine was decent.

But they didn't manage to root themselves sufficiently to stem the Islamic backlash. I hope they'll do better next time. 80 % of them are opposed to the current regime.

Trophonius said...

The Roman name "Caesar" derives either from the noun "caesaries" (meaning "dark hair", a word related to the Sanskrit "kêsa") or, more likely, from the adjective "caesius" (meaning "bluish grey", used only of eye colour).

Afonso Henriques said...

Western Initiatives, why being so unfair with the Baron of the blog?

-------------------------------

Conservative Swede, that's music for grannies!
And I have to agree with Henrik, it's too un-Persian.

I'll just leave two links here:

First, if you want great music, if you want simultaneously a "indo-EUROPEAN" revival, especially in this times, nothing better than...

WARNING: Make sure you hear this music loud.
... this.

If you understand the lyrics you will be amazed by it. I am not sure about the meaning, but I sure know what it evokes (at least in my eyes). I also wonder how the men who wrote the lyrics is free in Zapatero's Spain. This women is a Catalan Lady and, in my view, has such a pure Hispanic soul... real Hispanic, not what they sell you in America. By Hispanicism, I mean that which makes us stand out as unique, different, especial (whatever) in Europe.
If you do not believe me, or fail to understand what I mean, I can't blame you, but you can also hear this piece of art from Monica as well. "Sobrivivire" live. The Hispanic "I will survive", much better than the afro-American one which is merely good. This is outstanding.

Oh boy, but we were talking about the land of the Shah... King of Kings, Sun of the Aryans... well, what can I say, what you then have to do is to atract the youth, and nothing better than this.

If only he spoke about Persian Nation instead of Iranian Civilisation... and you will not find nothing directly against the regime or islam, why? Because Iranians, especially Persians, have been attacked (U.S., Irak, whoever) and to every threath they respond by strenghtening the group.
My assertion is the following:
Every time Americans threat Iran, the stronger islam will get there. If you are to leave them alone, you'll see the Persians will find their identity (if they can to get ridd of the Turks and Arabs and they have that potential).

And I say more, Iran/Persia is not something you can destroy without a total war. This was the video who made me see 300, now I will try to see the parodia of 300, it promises to be hilarious. And I left three links. Damn it!

Conservative Swede said...

Henrik,

First regarding the music. Jazz surely beats the music from Afonso's videos: black junk culture and hardrock. Persians playing jazz is so much more genuine than that Persian hip-hopper supposedly promoting "Persian Pride" to something that can hardly be called music and which is black junk and multiculti riffraff culture at its worst (misogynic etc.). Jazz is also black culture, however golden. And I cannot help but posing the question of whether it is more genuine when white Westerners emulate this black culture, than when Persians do it? Or are you implying that we would need to abandon jazz music in Scandinavia too, the day when we decide to reassert our culture?

Otherwise I agree with you. The Shah should have asserted ancient Persian values more. However, this was hardly what was decisive after all in why things unwound as they did.

The Googoosh music video is wonderfully tacky. Yes indeed, it's not their kind of music (a large part of the tackiness has to be attributed to the '70s though). However, the video conveys a lot of things. First of all, could you see Arabs or Pakistanis ever doing something like this? No, of course not. This conveys that fact that the Persians are Indo-Europeans and have much in common with us (yes these dudes are playing that black music in a very white way). It conveys that fact much better than those pompous youtube clips with "Aryan" in their title and with heavy metal or bombastic classic music in the background.

The video further tells a lot about how the Iranian society was, and therefore what it again can be. The place of the women, the expression, etc.

Czechmade said...

Graham, the term ceaser is just translation/equivalent, not an etymology. I brought it as an illustration to the cenral role of the wheel as described in Fjordmans article.

We should not rush into any conclusion about Persians or Persia.
Let us be patient and learn more.
Know your enemy and know your friend.

Our massive ignorance of how the Persians oppose islamic/arabic occupation (thats how they call it) on daily basis is a form of tacit collaboration with the regime.

We have allies and we do not care.
Every stupid jihadi will patiently build a "coalition of the willing". We donť. In Persia they disdain already EU and Europeans for our cowardly approach to their gov.

Modern Persian script has just few letters different from arabic, they add 2 dots to mark the difference - p, zh i. The new script in question would be Pahlavi or our script.

There is no other country in the "islamic" world more ready for a deep radical change on its own. It should be our strategic asset.

Conservative Swede said...

Afonso,

Seriously, man. You need to take another look. You just posted another "Yo! Aryans!" rap video. I fail to see why Henrik is protesting very civilized soft jazz, while having no complaints about niggah/ganstah attitude pseudo-music. Using that as a vehicle of promoting Persian values is seriously stupid and ridiculous.

Sorry Afonso, but that's how it is. Nevertheless, I found your initiative to post pro-Persian videos inspirational, and it inspired me to find and post mine.

Conservative Swede said...

I wrote:
The video further tells a lot about how the Iranian society was, and therefore what it again can be.

Once again, this conveys the idea of the possible future much better than those pompous youtube clips with "Aryan" in their title.

That's the point of being conservative. Knowing to look into the past to see the future. Knowing to look at real events with real substance, instead of ideological fantasies.

Furthermore, jazz music goes fine together with any kind of nationalism, Persian or Scandinavian. While rap music doesn't. It cannot even express black culture properly, only niggah culture. (In order to appreciate that distinction see this: Chris Rock - Black People Vs Niggaz)

Fjordman said...

Western Initiatives: I don't take that as a compliment. You're on the wrong website. Get lost.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Western Initiative, I'm not sure how come you're not recognizing the high quality of the root posts here. They serve as the basis for real debate - our common analysis of the Georgia situation, for one, was among the best _anywhere_ - the posts here have journalistic integrity you'll be hard pressed to match anywhere else.

And then there's the lingustic aspect, which alone makes GoV worth visiting. At the age of 45, having a degree in English (not my native language) and extensive use over decades, I thought there was little left to learn. My mistake, which is Good :)

That said, I think the comment of Fjordman is a tad on the rude side. Most of us have bad habits of one kind or another to discard. Which is perfectly doable, and very useful.

Conservative Swede said...

No, I agree with Henrik. We shouldn't be rude to Western Initiatives. However, since I complained about Afonso's Aryan rap videos, in all fairness I should complain about some of the things found through links of Western Initiatives' site.

E.g. this: Blot und Boden Shirt. Found at the Aryan Wear site. The picture speaks for itself.

If a Persian Aryan rap video is ridiculous, well then, the stuff that can be found via Western Initiatives' site is beyond words.

Fjordman said...

Henrik: OK, you are right, I was probably rude, and my comment was unnecessary. We should remain civil also with those whose ideas we dislike. But I do think he misunderstands the purpose of this website...

Western Initiatives said...

Charles Johnson, is that you?

Fjordman said...

WI: Bad joke. Just because Mr. Johnson thinks there's a Nazi under every bed doesn't mean that they don't exist at all. As I tried to explain to CJ last year, those who actually do have pro-Nazi sympathies don't usually try to hide this at all. You would be a perfect example of that. I guess that's good, from a certain point of view.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS, I agree with you in turn, about the stuff found through WI's profile.

But that's off-topic from this thread, and not sufficient reason to kick out anyone doing_sensible_ discussion here. Slurs like invoking 'CJ' doesn't, in my book, qualify as sensible.

Conservative Swede said...

Just to clarify:

Neither "Blut und Boden" nor "Aryan" are alien concepts to me, even though I do not find it necessary to put them at the centre of my discourse.

My objection is how that T-shirt is a very stupid mockery of the concept Blut und Boden and how an Aryan rap video is an ridicolous mockery of its concept as well. Then there will of course be the cases when these concepts are seriously applied, but in a objectionable way. However, that is very rarely seen. Most often they pop up in this sort of cartoonish idiocy. No wonder sensible people stay away from these concepts, even though they surely would have the potential to be useful.

People spreading such junk as that Blut und Boden T-shirt are a great help in upholding the current order. When will people ever learn...

Fjordman said...

CS: Aryan is a linguistic term. Pakistanis use an Indo-Aryan language, which is an Indian sub-group of Indo-European.

Afonso Henriques said...

Conservative Swede,

I love this wonderings about music...

The first three videos I posted, music was not a criteria, not at all. I chosed those videos due to the mensage they transmit. Only.

The other three videos, well, the Catalan Lady is a great star. And I will get to the Iranian video later.

"You just posted another "Yo! Aryans!" rap video."

You are now refering to the last video of Iran I posted. And I have to say that I strongly disagree with you.

"Furthermore, jazz music goes fine together with any kind of nationalism, Persian or Scandinavian. While rap music doesn't."

In my opinion, and at the point Europe is at right now, I think anything that atracts the youth to it is good. Even if it is Tokyo Hotel.

"I fail to see why Henrik is protesting very civilized soft jazz, while having no complaints about niggah/ganstah attitude pseudo-music. Using that as a vehicle of promoting Persian values is seriously stupid and ridiculous."

You see, I think that you are failing to see the obvious - and let me acuse you of over ideologising rap.
First, rap, before being "black" is two things first:
1) The music of the "rebellion" / "opressed" / "victimisation" / "agression against what is stablished" etc. As a Catholic priest said here recently, we have to support rappers because it is "the new social order". It goes is the descended of left-ism.
2) It represents the West. Yes it does, when the West turns it back to Serbia, considers the Japanese as one of "our kind", stands against Darfurs, calls immigrants and export democracy. I think rap is the zenit of the West. What must not be confused with European Civilisation. (and now I do not know if I am making sense to aybody but myself) European Civilisation is something "palpable" the West is vague.

By rapping, the Persian guy is becoming part of the West. Can you get more away from islam? Also, by rapping he is simultaneously claiming he is being opressed (by the U.S. and Israel) and letting his rage be shown.

You have to understand that it is not a "Yo Aryans" thing. It is an answer to an american attack. The rap atracts the youth and as such he uses it to transmit his mensage.
He ends up defeating America (through rap) in America's own terrain and with the weapons America chose (rap).

Also, he dominates the West (rap) and gives is a soul: A Persian soul.

The lyrics are acceptable even with some poetry in the middle;
The sound is an adaptation of Persian music (not hindu and definetly nor arabic) to rap. And it sounds good to my hears.

And it is sang in Persian. He shows that "Persianity" can be simultaneously "Western cool" but more than that, can have a soul which the West lacks, a Persian soul.

All this and he still is faithfull to his goal: To defend Iran from the American-Jewish attacks... principally the film 300 which bastardises Persian culture.

Sorry if this is somehow not making sense, but it is the third, THIRD! comment I wrote. Let's see if the blogger does not eat it.

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Currently I'm reading "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," written with the assistance of Alex Haley right before his death in 1965. I got it from teh library because my daughter was considering reading it as an optional book for her high school English class, but chose another book instead.

Needless to say, he has a different viewpoint about the relative merits of European vs. other, particularly African, civilization.

I suspect that he and Fjordman would be proof that the ideological "spectrum" is, in fact, a horseshoe, with the extreme right and extreme left closer to each other than to the middle, where the truth lies.

Conservative Swede said...

I wrote:
No, I agree with Henrik. We shouldn't be rude to Western Initiatives.

OK, I think I need to take that back, considering that he seems to have no other mode than rudeness himself, no interest in seriously defending his position (I guess because it cannot be seriously defended). What's the point of calling for civilized dialog with someone who does not show any inclination for it himself?

Fjordman wrote:
As I tried to explain to CJ last year, those who actually do have pro-Nazi sympathies don't usually try to hide this at all.

Well, they flaunt it openly at their websites, but nevertheless they are cowardly enough to deny it in a direct conversation (kind of reminds of how the Holocaust is simultaneously lauded and denied by some people).

What WI missed when he lumps you together with CJ is that there is a whole world of difference between denouncing people as neo-Nazis who are neo-Nazi, and doing it for people who are most certainly not. It's like the difference between throwing murderers in jail or doing so to innocent people. People like WI though, who is drunken on post-modern leftist style victimization ideology (he should be credited though for not doing it to the soundtrack of rap music), sings the mindless nihilistic song of moral equivalence. Any yeah, I he thinks people here will buy this leftist style crap of moral equivalence between you and CJ, then he's definitely at the wrong site (just to mention one reason).

I gave WI the benefit of the doubt since after all he had also good links at his site. But he blew it. His moral equivalence makes me think of Montagne.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS:
I wrote:
No, I agree with Henrik. We shouldn't be rude to Western Initiatives.

OK, I think I need to take that back, considering that he seems to have no other mode than rudeness himself ...


CS, will you please elaborate what causes you to make such a sweeping statement?

Was it because I called it a 'slur' that WI invoked Charles Johnson here? I called it a slur because I believe it to be. If someone can point that out to be wrong, please do.

Or is it this statement of yours:

"I fail to see why Henrik is protesting very civilized soft jazz, while having no complaints about niggah/ganstah attitude pseudo-music. Using that as a vehicle of promoting Persian values is seriously stupid and ridiculous."

I did not call anything, or anyone "Seriously stupid and ridiculous", did I? You did, right here.

Some reasons I didn't condemn that rap pseudo-music:

1) I don't like being negative.

2) I have the right to be selective, am under no obligation to post opinions on every piece posted here. I simply chose not to comment.

3) I was off for the evening anyway.

My lack of comment does not constitute an endorsement. Far from it.

As for the soft jazz piece, what I wrote is this:

This video is Persians (eh, Iranians) emulating Western culture.

Read the sentence, please. I made *no* comments on the genre, nor on the performance. I commented on the lack of Persian-ness, a problem you seem to agree with anyhow.

CS, unless you can come up with something that proves your statement he seems to have no other mode than rudeness himself, I believe you owe me an apology.

Western Initiatives said...

Honestly, you guys make me laugh.

I post a positive comment about this site and I am immediately attacked. WTF?

But it doesn't matter. This thread proves beyond a doubt that you haven't a clue how to defend the West. You're clearly much more interested in fighting amongst yourselves, like a group of silly old women, than actually doing something about the coming crisis.

Even if you had to take to the streets, you guys are so old and out of shape (from what I have seen), you wouldn't last a second. It's obviously much safer for you to fight the good fight from behind the safety of your computer and anonymity.

Your obsession with "neo-nazis' is just an excuse to make yourselves feel superior to those you deem socially inferior. It's a petty class thing. It's also a way to suck up to the Jews. You know it, and I know it. Be honest with yourself and admit it.

Your denunciation of European nationalists such as the FPO and BNP would be funny if it were not so mean-spirited. Here you are, claiming to defend the West from Islam--and yet you reserve your nastiest attacks for those guys who are actually fighting Islam! WTF?!

Of course, European nationalists are using their real names, putting their lives at risk and going to jail in some cases, while you type away from behind the safety of your computer and anonymity.

As far as Charles Johnson is concerned, his rejection of you clearly bothers you. It bothers you deeply. Because at heart, you care more about popularity in your little gang than about defending the West.

You guys (with a few exceptions, such as Afonso, who seems to be the only one amongst you who gets it) are amateurs at best, and fellow-travellers of the Left at worst.

Afonso Henriques said...

Thank you Western Initiatives.

I think the problem is both cultural and geracional. Second World War and the Nazis are just to far from here.

Also, I think we will need both: muscles and brains.

Here, I probabily will agree more with Conservative Swede or Henrik but if the time comes, I am sure that intelectuals will not be enough, as Fjordman said, "the Central Asian Budhists are all dead".

However, sometimes is shocking the lack of brains the muscles have.

Now we are in a period of radicalisation: The Brains will get more to the right and the neo-nazis and such will come more and more to the right, that is, under the intelectuals wings. I think it is inevitable and I would like very much to act as a mediator.

As I've said to Natalie (I guess) I do not agree much with "neo nazi/white nationalists" views but, they have the potential to be "converted".

Not that I personally know any neo-nazi/white nationalist or such but it seems that they already have what it takes, they only lack education to act properly.

For instance,
why the racial hatred?
why the false obsession with purity?
why the agressivity?
why to hail Hitler and Nazi Germany when 90% of the people see it as the greatest evil?
Why the "It's also a way to suck up to the Jews. You know it, and I know it."?

You see, all this is only counter productive.

I'll tell you a History, some moths ago, a young boy whose mother had recently dyed, who was an athelete and who was repeately attacked and robbed by gangs of blacks (they beat their athlete capacity out of him) decided that the problem was multiculturalism and went for a "Nationalist" way.

What did the "Nationalists" did? They made a ritual of iniciation in which he was to vandalise (really bad) the only Jewish cemitery.

You see, what's the point!??

Conservative Swede said...

Henrik,

I have no clue about what you are talking about. Are you drunk? I believe you need to control your hot temper so that it doesn't run amok like this.

I only have short time here. Too short to decode the garble you have written. Of which I get nothing. Nothing except for your obvious willingness to create a reason to aggressively attack me.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS wrote:
I have no clue about what you are talking about.

The first bit I quoted from your comment became a bit garbled due to double-level quoting. Sorry 'bout that.

Are you drunk?

No. Are you?

I believe you need to control your hot temper so that it doesn't run amok like this.

I realize you may prefer to blame my 'temper' over going into details of my little analysis above. But I suggest you to go back anyway, follow the details of what I said, what I did not say, and what you blamed me for saying anyway.

I still believe an apology for your statement that I have no mode other than rudeness wold be appropriate.

Henrik R Clausen said...

WI, you may notice that we take care not to assault the intelligence, character or personality of individuals or groups. On the other hand, we are merciless when it comes to ideas :)

People here generally are Conservatives in their outlook, and totalitarian ideologies, or (even percieved) sympathies thereof, are sure to get a healthy beating.

But if you don't like the intellectual climate in here, you are free to go elsewhere instead of trying to insult everyone else here. You will probably feel more at home there anyway.

Conservative Swede said...

The misunderstanding by Henrik has been addressed here.

No apology needed, obviously.