Friday, August 15, 2008

Cuba Redux

I wrote earlier today about the Cuban Missile Crisis as a parallel to recent events in the Caucasus. Our Flemish correspondent VH just sent us some more material to point out how apt the analogy is. These news stories concern Russia’s attempt to re-establish a foothold in Cuba.

First, there’s an article from last month’s Washington Post:

Russian Bombers Could Be Deployed to Cuba

Russian bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons could be deployed to Cuba in response to U.S. plans to install a missile defense system in Eastern Europe, a Russian newspaper reported Monday, citing an unnamed senior Russian air force official.

The report in Izvestia, which could not be confirmed, prompted memories of the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, when the United States and the Soviet Union came to the brink of nuclear war after Nikita Khrushchev put nuclear missiles on the Caribbean island. The weapons were eventually withdrawn in an apparent Soviet climb-down, but President John F. Kennedy also secretly agreed to remove U.S. missiles from Turkey.

A spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry declined to comment on the report Monday, but did not deny it. Izvestia is often a forum for strategic leaks by Kremlin and other officials.

“While they are deploying the missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic, our strategic bombers will already be landing in Cuba,” Izvestia quoted the source as saying.

It was unclear if the source was suggesting that Russia would reopen a base in Cuba or merely use an airfield there for stopovers by the bombers, Tu-160s and Tu-95s, which are already capable of reaching the United States from bases in Russia.

Russian strategic bombers, long mothballed, resumed worldwide patrols last year under orders from then-President Vladimir Putin. The flights have continued under his successor, Dmitry Medvedev.

One can’t help but admire the Russian ability to play steely-eyed hardball.

An English-language version of a recent Russian news story has additional information on the same topic. This is more than just a nostalgia-fest for the commissars and the Fidelistas:
- - - - - - - - -
MOSCOW, August 1 (RIA Novosti) — Russia and Cuba are to make efforts to boost bilateral cooperation in all spheres, the Russian Security Council said on Friday.

Council chief Nikolai Patrushev and Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Sechin visited Cuba on July 30-31, in a trip focusing on projects to revive economic ties between the former Cold War allies, including Russian companies’ participation in developing oil fields in the Latin American state.

“[Cuban President] Raul Castro, Patrushev and Sechin said at a meeting that their countries’ were set to make consistent efforts to restore longtime ties in all spheres of cooperation and to expand and strengthen them,” the Security Council said in a statement.

Sechin earlier cited oil production, tourism, healthcare, nickel production, telecommunications and nanotechnology as the most promising spheres for cooperation between the two countries.

Russia issued a $355 million loan for the purchase of vehicles and the financing of energy infrastructure in Cuba in 2006, reviving ties that had been weakened by the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Havana also committed itself to buying three Il-96-300 planes and three Tu-204 passenger medium-haul aircraft.

The visit of Patrushev and Sechin came after media reports said Russia could place an orbital ballistic missile system in Cuba in response to U.S. missile defense plans for Central Europe.

The State Department and the Bush administration are relative amateurs, and may not be up to this kind of game. I wouldn’t want to be in Condi’s high-heeled sneakers right now.

75 comments:

rumcrook said...

steely eyed? are ya kidding me its more like watery eyed its easy to get in fights if your drunk.

this could have been stopped in a heartbeat if the west had made it untennnable for the russians, for instance goerge should have known what they planned, and antitank missles by the bag full should have been handed out like candy to the georgians

supercargo said...

BB:

Why did you squelch 3 of my posts? In one I applied the principles of the Helsinki Accords (1977) to Russia's minority protection in the lands they handed over in trust to Georgians, when they were forming the Commonwealth of Independent States. And I tried to explain that nationalist Georgia was a specimen created in the George Soros lab. Illegal opinon?

http://www.soros.org/about/foundations/georgia

Baron Bodissey said...

supercargo --

As far as I know, I deleted only two of your comments. Both were nasty, foul-mouthed, and gratuitously insulting. The four-letter words cause comments to be deleted here.

Here's the detail on our rules. You violated #1 and #4:

Gates of Vienna's rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum.

Rules of Discourse

1. Civil: No name calling, gratuitous insults, personal slurs, denigration of someone’s intelligence, etc.

2. Temperate: No exhortations to commit violence or foment insurrection, etc.

3. On-topic: We generally don’t delete off-topic comments, but reserve the right to if they are excessively long. A brief OT mention of something you think we should know is perfectly fine.

4. Decorum: We are a PG-13 blog, because the parents of homeschoolers allow their older children to come over here to further their education. Please make your point without resorting to foul language or explicit descriptions.

teacher.paris said...

The amazing discovery by the Russian Security Service that Vladimir Putin was actually born in the United States and kidnapped and raised in former Soviet Union makes him elgible to run for President of the United States. Finally we have a candidate we can rally around!

Henrik R Clausen said...

Supercargo, I'm quite certain (not having seen the comments) that it was their language, not their factual content, that got them shredded.

The Soros connection is interesting, indeed. Saaskavili was put into power by Soros, presumably assuming that a genuine democracy would evolve. No such luck.

It is a cunning countermove by Russia to strengthen their presence in Cuba. NOT to my liking, but the US presence in Georgia is symmetrical in nature, so what is there to complain about on this?

We have been building up Georgia with empty promises and military hardware, and when Saaskavili attacks Russian with these resources, he gets a prompt lesson on real power.

What worries me most in this is certainly not Putin. He's an self-centered autocrat who'll do solely what is in Russian interests.

What worries me is Bush. He's unable or unwilling to admit that he got Georgia into this situation in the first place, and steps up badmouthing the Russian 'aggeressors', trying to free himself of any suspicion of blame or responsibility for what happened last week.

I hope very few buy that.

Poland got their missile shield, and more Russian missiles will be aiming at Poland in return. Their deal, their game.

The closes symmetrical situation would probably be if Venezuela (with Chavez) was landlocked with the US and swarming with Russian military 'advisors', then assaulted an enclave with US citizens.

Would the US let Russia do that?

I believe granting Georgia a full NATO membership would be folly. Just look at their position on a map. Would we be able and willing to resupply and defend Georgia from a war with Russia? Sail in massive military supplies past the Balkans, through the narrow Dardanelles, across the Black Sea with huge Russian bases on the flank, to defend a small country with a rabidly anti-Russian president and population who, under our expected protection, had taunted Russia one round too often?

I don't think sending of our soldiers to fight in the Caucasus makes sense. I don't think it constitutes 'defense' either, it's just 'war'. Expanding supposedly 'defensive' alliances like that implies that we should have DoD change its name to DoW (or, in tribute to Orwell, DoP (Department of Peace)), for all the 'peace-creating' work we're getting involved in?

BTW, what actually happened to the "War on Terror"? I thought that was important, too...

Defiant Lion said...

@Henrik:

Superb post.

The NATO position here really does need questioning. Had Saakashvili waited until Georgia was in NATO, we would be looking at the dreadful possibility of war with Russia. As McCain stated:

"An attack on one is an attack on all."

This is insanity.

NATO's actions in Kosovo and Serbia are abhorrent. They now follow up their war crimes there by providing support and military assistance to Georgia, another nation trying to ethnically clean its land.

And the media reporting is once again nothing more than propoganda. As in the last Israel-Hizbollah war, the media are using staged images to smear Russia, check out the pics over on the Byzantine Sacred Art blog:

Western Media Lies

There's some interesting posts before the "Deceiving the World With Pictures" entry, all well worth reading.

supercargo said...

hrc:

I don't use foul language or threaten, and didn't.

I am no fan of Bush. One of his first acts after 9-11, was to proclaim, "Islam is peace." His response to Aghan and Iraqi aggression was to nation build with Islamofascists. In June, Karzai praised Taliban "morality" in an interview in Der Spiegel. Bush doesn't want them to die; he wants them to vote. That's folly. There is no separate identity between Taliban and al-Qaeda. The Taliban made bin Laden's "Fatwah Against Jews and Al-Qaeda" state law, in a 1998 Shura vote.

In Iraq, Bush's insistence on working directly with religious groups from the start of the Coalition Provisional Authority, all but murdered secularism in one of its rare Middle East enclaves.

When the Koran tells Muslims to avoid friendly relations with Jews and Christians, they will hardly ignore that dictate. Islam is war, surrogate war between a fictitious deity and those who live by conscience. Islam is unconscionable. Muslims are our enemy.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

Has everyone forgotten that the Russians had begun acting more belligerently over a year ago? Flying bombers right up to US airspace, over Europe, claiming the freaking north pole as their sovereign territory and generally acting like d*cks toward everyone? And even before that, using their stranglehold on energy suplies to threaten and manipulate many eastern european nations for not acting the way Russia wants them to act... This is not a sudden new development. They've been building up to this for a long time. This isn't a result of Georgian actions or US actions or what have you, this is Russia reverting to its role as the bully of eastern europe, a role it's taken for centuries and a role it seems to relish.

I was willing to suspend some disbelief with the russians before, when they were arming the Iranians. I was willing to assume it was just realpolitik... but the fact is, we are destabilised from within by Islam, and just as that destabilisation begins to reach a peak in Europe the Rusians start parading their tanks and bombers, re-asserting their "influence" over recalcitrant former soviet republics. I don't see a coincidence any more.

spackle said...

graham dawson-

Thank you!

Baron Bodissey said...

supercargo --

You most certainly did use obscene language. I still have your comments in the email box they get sent to, and I can see them.

One of your obscenities was used to describe Aafia Siddiqui. While I share your distaste for the woman, using four-letter words to describe her will get your comment deleted.

In fact, that and one other comment were so different from your more recent ones that it's hard to believe they're by the same person. Perhaps someone else borrowed your login info...?

Defiant Lion said...

@Graham:

What tosh.

The actions you cite pale into insignificance compared to what the US has been doing since the fall of the USSR.

It is the USA and not Russia who is destabalising the world. And the hypocrisy of the US stinks the place out. It's about time someone put the USA in its place and thankfully the Russians aren't going to be bullied like the Serbs:

Bush Will You Please Shut Up

The Russians may be acting belligerently Graham but the USA are acting criminally.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

What was done to Serbs was wrong, but that doesn't make the Russians right.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Has everyone forgotten that the Russians had begun acting more belligerently over a year ago?

Here in Denmark, which is right on the exit route from the naval bases of Kaliningrad, we are acutely aware of this. We have filed protests against Russian air space violations. Serious business.

But then, the US has been doing more extreme things over the last decades. Messing into Balkans is supremely the worst, and bombing Serbia in order to establish Bondsteel rates in my book as criminal. You just don't do that kind of thing.

We're in deep, away from principles of international law.

I called the chairman of the Danish-Georgian Friendship Society, Rev. H.K. Neerskov. He said some interesting things:

First, he called it 'unforgivable' that Russia transgressed a national border. If only things were that well... Our transgressions in the Balkans, the Turkish against Iraq etc. set a precedence for doing so that is not easily undone.

I think the Russians will be largely forgiven in a year or two. And should they cut all ties to Iran, to support taking out their nuclear facilities, or go squarely against all Islamists movements, I think most everyone here would forgive the 'unforgivable' on the spot.

Neerskov also told me that the Russians are holding strategic positions inside Georgia, effectively cutting the country in halves. That is not good.

And he added another piece to the puzzle of why Saakashvili started this mess. In the recent election, in which he was accused of massive fraud, he promised to reestablish the Georgian territorial integrity, that is, to get the Russian enclaves back under Georgian control.

Now, his popularity has been plummeting recently, and he saw fulfilling his election promise as a way to get back on top. He also - foolishly - counted on US support for what he did. Now he has lost everything and will probably vanish out of history soon. What he should have done was to convince the inhabitants of the enclaves to ditch their Russian passports for Georgian ones, so that Russia would not be welcomed by the citizens there. Bombing them was brutally wrongheaded.

Please convince me Bush and Condi knows what they are doing.

Don't worry. One of McCains key advisers has a background working for the Georgian lobby. This thing has potential to get worse before it gets better.

Graham, I agree in principle that what was done to the Serbs doesn't justify Russian transgressions of national borders. But after the Kosovo thing, our token protests against Turkish transgressions into Iraq, the Iraq thing itself etc., we have lost our moral high ground on these issues.

Winning that back is very difficult. A nice start would be to cancel the fraudelent referendum in Montenegro, where we (again) severed Serbia without justification. Actually, the whole Balkan thing pushed the Serbs into the arms of Orthodox Russia, where for decades Yugoslavia had defied Russian interests systematically. Bad move...

It may not be easy to find answers in this mess. But I most certainly DO NOT WANT to go to war against Russia, and certainly not over a small land in Caucasus. Granting NATO membership to a small, rabidly anti-Russian country, bordering Russia? Not sane.

We need to kick our oil habit, first of all...

Defiant Lion said...

What happened to the Serbs is just one war crime. There are also the war crimes of Iraq and Afghanistan to consider, along with placing US/NATO bases in states surrounding Russia and organising revolutions in them to install Washington friendly puppet regimes.

Let us also remember that the Iraq war and the attack on Serbia - where civilians were deliberately targeted by NATO - were built on a pack of lies.

The role of the US military in training groups who commit genocide is reprehensible. This situation in Georgia is a repeat of what the Croatains did in the Krajina.

US trained troops ethnically cleansing non-indigenous people from their homes as they are not wanted by the rulers of the state.

When the US and Croatia ethnically cleansed 250,000 Serbs from the Krajina, Serbia was powerless to defend its citizens.

The US and Georgia have now tried the same trick in South Ossetia (where 2000 people have been killed and another 30-40,000 driven out of S.Ossetia) but Russia has come to the aid of her people.

And the lies from the US continue.

Clinton, Holbrook, Albright are war criminals who should be tried for what they did in Serbia. To this list of murderers we can now add Bush, Rice and Cheney.

These are the people who have betrayed the values the US was built on. Because it now seems that life, liberty and happines can be taken away with impunity if it serves the US agenda of global hegemony.

Bela said...

The observation of the discussion board dealing with the Georgian crisis revealed a very intersecting, however incidental aspect.

The Soviets were the ultimate repository of the collected wisdom of Marxism, Stalinism, Leninism: the apotheosis of the Worker's Paradise and it's principal tenet that is, the extermination of the "class-alien" bourgeoisie was in the mind of all.

It was only natural that the Western radicals with the Rosenberg spy couple's mindset flocked to Moscow to scoop up the infinite wisdom of the Party and to spawn, and disseminate its teaching upon return to the West.

Russia of today is no longer Communist (no private property was allowed under Comm.) but Fascist: Private means of production under strong State control run by the new oligarchy and nationalism. Similar was the situation under Hitler and the Krupp family.

How quaint is to behold that the Western Leftist adulation of Russia has not diminished, not in the least with this change. All the more is interesting because Soros, the Godfather of the America haters and the Left, the financier of the moveon, and assorted leftist groups including the Dem.Party, is now scorned for supposedly (?) assaulting Mother Russia.

I believe the Left has no ideology nor convictions of any kind: an inveterate pathological hatred against their own way of life, against the World as they see it, the zest for destruction of the known order is that guides them and set them into motion.

The blind support and cheer, the praise of the enemies of the West let it be Fascist, Communist, Anarchist is what the Leftist are all about; their pious pontification is nothing more than memorized mantra form Soros' play-book.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Defiant Lion, I disagree with your assessment of the Afghanistan war. I believe it was justfied and conducted in accordance with international law.

The fact that we side with an Islamist government now is highly problematic, though. That's a different aspect.

BTW, do you consider the people ethnically cleansed by the Croats to be 'non-indigenous'? I think that is incorrect.

'Fascist' is an appropriate term for the current Russian system. Unfortunately, fascist ways of thinking have quietly crept into the political life in the West as well, probably because we've forgotten what fascism really is. Jonah Goldberg in Liberal Fascism gives us a great reminder, which certain people would do well to heed.

It's all about taking back democracy. The blogosphere is an important part of that.

Defiant Lion said...

Henrik:

I don't want to broaden the discussion to the minutiae of why I don't support the war on Afghanistan. It begins with the simple proposition that Afghanistan possesses zero threat to the US. It also involves the Saudis and their role in 9/11 but I won't go into further detail. Another time will present more suitable opportunity, I'm sure.

"BTW, do you consider the people ethnically cleansed by the Croats to be 'non-indigenous'? I think that is incorrect."

I most certainly don't but the people who committed the atrocity did.

As a British Nationalist, I believe that non-intereference in the affairs of other nations is a core policy. I believe we sjhould strive for self sufficiency. How Russia - and other nations - are governed is none of our business. We should only go to war when our interests or our nation is directly threatened. In this case, it is without question that the USA is meddling in the affairs of other states for its own gain and in doing so, is threatening a nuclear super power.

Were it Russia acting in this way in South America, Central America, Cuba or Canada, the Americans would be apoplectic.

Totally agree about Liberalism, I believe it is a mental disorder.

Diana West has written a superb article about how the west is laying into Russia and yet is reluctant to attack the biggest threat it faces, that of Islam, in the same manner:

Roars about Russia, Nary a Whisper about Islam

The tragedy of the west right now is that our leaders are morally bankrupt, appeasers of Islam and seek global domination.

A combination I believe is leading us into chaos. And I do wonder sometimes if chaos is their real goal.

Cobra said...

As someone who lived in the "workers paradise" I can tell you that russia, with or without bolshevism, behaves the same.
Russia became imperialistic after it was savaged by the mongols.
Every country ever touched by the russians, hates them.
The only exception may be Armenia, because they hate the turks (for obvious reasons, more than they hate the russians.
Having said that, now I must say that the US policies after the end of the Cold War, were stupid at best.
In my mind the blunder of the bombing of Serbia and the support of the so called Kosovo independence takes the prize of the most stupid and self defeating move by the West.
Russia should have been America's best friend, but that opportunity is lost and it may never return.

Bela said...

cobra,
As an ex-"worker paradise" dweller myself I commend your post for we share a common view based on not ideology but bloody experiences.
I have an oblique question to all of you because of the European Useful Idiots overwhelming dedication to the genocidal Russians.
Is it worth fighting Islamisation only to submit voluntarily to Russian nationalistic Fascism? I begin to have serious doubt about it. May be Islam is that can straighten up the convoluted mind of Western Liberal Fascists and lovers of the Russian barbarism.
The Serbian fiasco was the brainchild of the Europe loving Socialist Democrats, Obama's party, the spineless Reps. only followed the PC rules as they do it today.

defiant lion:

"As a British Nationalist, I believe that non-intereference in the affairs of other nations is a core policy."

In the name of the millions of dead and tortured by the Soviet-Russian imperialism we hail Pres. Reagan interference in our life for without it we would be all exterminated at the Ultimate Pleasure of the BNP.
We are pleased to see the rapid sinking of Britain. The hatred is mutual, no symphaty expressed.

Cobra said...

Reagan was the greatest man of the 20th century, in my mind, at least.
I was ready to kiss his feet for what he did.
I was in University when he was elected, and I remember the panic seeping from every article printed or broadcasted by the communist propaganda.
He was painted like the Devil himself, when in fact he checked mate the commies.

The end of communism was inconceivable in my mind even in the autumn of 1989.
In August of that year, my best friend was killed by the commie security apparatus of my country, so, you see, I had few reasons to be optimistic.

My fear is that the West is stupefied, oprahfied and too fat, happy and lazy to fight any more.
But a few more "Georgias" will do the trick....
I recommend a good blog, for the smart people, here at GOV:
http://once-upon-a-time-in-the-west.blogspot.com/

Bela said...

There is nothing more mystifying than the unbridled adulation of the Russian imperialism either the Communist kind or the current Fascist variant. The abject poverty, mass murder and assorted other mayhem in the wake of Leftism is out there for all to see yet it's attraction to the Western masses regardless their social status is only growing.
There is no rational explanation to it: remember the ecstatic crowd that cheered Hitler, Stalin or Mao even though they did not do anything of human value.

Same with Putin's: the fan club came to the fore and plunged into exuberant frenzy like the Romans at the Gladiator's arena, for his success in destroying as small nation with his mighty arsenal.

The West is Dead and deservedly so.

Afonso Henriques said...

A fast tip to the ex-Commies:

1) Please, do not equate Hitler or Mussolini or the such with your opressors. The first look like angels in comparison...

2) It's incredibly how RACIST you are. You blame all Russians for Communism and all Germans for Nazism as if it was something that was in their DNA. You are racists and you can not proof (not even slightly) what you are saying.

3) This Russia is not Communist, it's nothing to due with the USSR. It's stupid to say otherwise without fundamenting that point of view.

4) Have you heard about this States in European History before?
Belarus, Bosnia, Ukraine, Moldova, Kosovo, Albania?

Me neither.

5) Yes, the Belarussians are not entitled to their State, it's traditional Russian territory, they built nothing. Idem to Ukraine. Or at least great part of it. Ukraine has historically been a region of Russia.

6) Yes, Hitler's Germany had legitimate rights over not only Germany but also the Rhir area, Austria, and Western Poland. This is clear.
Maybe the Sudetenland also...

7) The Nationalist-Fascists in Russia, the FDR (Free Democratic Party?) has as its goals the partiton of both: Poland and Ukraine. They are the third most voted party in Russia.

8) I am glad Russia is on the rise. We needed someone to put breaks on this lunacy.

I'll ask the ex-Communists here, or better, those who lived under Communism, despite the fact that I don't expect truthworthy answers but here it goes:

Why and in what are you against Russia? Is it because they are Russians only or do you have a reasonable explanation, don't matter how "not-serious" it may seem?

Thanks.

Bela said...

Anybody who displays in writing or in speech these words as:
RACIST! FASCIST! NAZI! BUSHITLER! etc. is lost any argument without further need to discuss anything at all.

These labels are the main tools of the radical leftist/fascist to intimidate, silence, put to shame anybody who are expressing dissenting opinion or differing from their talking point.

We are protected by Freedom of Speech laws therefore we reject any type of labeling or any attempt to censor one's wording or diction.

Protestant said...

A lot of people on the good side really badly miscalculate by thinking that Russia is a potential "savior" for Europe.

Russia's instincts today, as we can see again and again, are no different than they were in 1920, 1939-1940, 1945, or indeed pretty much any time in its history.

Namely: The Russians view "us" as a competitor at best; but more likely as an enemy to be exploited, maneuvered around, or dominated when possible. They actively pursued genocide-by-policy against most of the Peoples of Europe east of the "Oder-Neisse line" they created, and the largest ones which could not be subsumed/destroyed/'Russified out of existence', were simply subjugated.

Before you blame Communism, remember that the nationalists in Russia today are rabid defenders of these actions. Putin said: "The Fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century". (The not-so-big secret is that the USSR, after it stabilized postwar, was socioculturally quite Russian-Nationalist, with some lip-service to internationalism and socialism, but a Russian-nationalist core. Russian was promoted by Soviet leaders as "the world's best language", and so forth).

The good thing about all these aggressive moves by Russia, is that they "shake things up"...no longer can people think the World Order As It Is Presently, is "inevitable". It may also whip up patriotic instincts among the Western Europeans, and increase military spending. ...Make no mistake, Europe's survival is possible only through its own revival(s). It will not come from Russian tanks and bombs. (If Russia ever were to invade to "secure the peace" in a future-balkanizing Western Europe, don't expect them to establish strong states, but rather weak states that they can dominate. And expect them to keep all the foreigners, because that weakens the Western enemies too.)

Bela said...

protestant,

The Georgian conflict exposed a latent but existing and deep fissure in the world: Western Europeans always supported the Soviet Union in contrast to the US: they never protested in favor of the captive nations in the East, quite the opposite is true. US flag burning was a daily occurrence all over in Western Europe, protest against Reagan was almost a mass hysteria throughout Western capitals yet the Communist-Russian genocide was ignored or swept aside just like now: Russian shills are swarming all over on the blogosphere.

I believe Eastern Europeans can expect only hostilities from the Western EU members and we'd better wake up from our unfounded illusion according which we are part of the West. We are not.
We should support the spread of multiculturalism and encourage the Muslim immigration and takeover by them of Western Europe. It's a fair response to their indifference towards our life and their apology for the genocidal Russian hordes.
Eastern Eu. is not threatened by the Muslims for their nationalist feeling is strong, they are no pussycats, multiculturalism is nonexistent, self-loathing is un-cool and finally no financial benefit can be offered to the imams.
The realignment of the minds has begun.

Felicie said...

I find it interesting that the question of Russia appears to be the faultline along which the counterjihadi loyalties are split between Americans and Europeans. Americans see Russia as the Evil Empire - a country that is inherently bad, brutal, and aggressive, and that cannot possibly redeem itself under any regime. Europeans see Russia as just another opportunistic power, along the lines of the British or Austro-Hungarian Empire or Napoleonic France. I find the European view more worldly and historically savvy, while the American one a mixture of naivite, remnants of cold-war brainwashing, and the resentment of one superpower towards its possible competitors. Witness how, for years, we rarely heard anything about the human rights violations in China, but saw only laudatory articles about the "vigor" of the new Chinese economy. Suddenly, when the Chinese economy is strong enough to challenge the U.S. as the world power, we have a barrage of articles and TV progemas that tell us what a terrible country China is. I even saw a long article on how "we should fight a war with China."

Cobra said...

"4) Have you heard about this States in European History before?
Belarus, Bosnia, Ukraine, Moldova, Kosovo, Albania?"

Alfonso,
Your posting is incredibly stupid.
Albania was a state before the Ottoman Turks took over.
And Moldova is Romanian territory-Basarabia, which has been stolen five times by the russians in history.
Russians conquered in every direction.
And only those conquered countries can understand the savagery of the russians.
Why are the Central and Eastern European countries so afraid of the russians and why are they so vociferous right now?
Think about that, before you touch the keyboard and post another stupidity...
The rapes, killings and stealing by the russian troupes are legendary all over Eastern Europe.
And I know what I am talking about here.

pasta said...

@Protestant:

"They actively pursued genocide-by-policy against most of the Peoples of Europe east of the "Oder-Neisse line" they created, and the largest ones which could not be subsumed/destroyed/'Russified out of existence', were simply subjugated."

Care to tell us more about the genocide by the Soviet Union against the Polish, Czech, Slovak, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Slovenians, Croats and Serbs? It's the first time I hear about it.

@Bela:

"I believe Eastern Europeans can expect only hostilities from the Western EU members and we'd better wake up from our unfounded illusion according which we are part of the West. We are not."

You are part of the West. Your illusion is, that Georgia is part of the West, too.

"We should support the spread of multiculturalism and encourage the Muslim immigration and takeover by them of Western Europe. It's a fair response to their indifference towards our life and their apology for the genocidal Russian hordes."

Hear hear, what treacherous snakes we invited into NATO and EU. :-(

Western Europe accepted Eastern Europe (excl. Ukraine, Belarus) as part of the West, that's why it was allowed to join. But you insist on Georgia to join, too, and because you can't get that, you
behave like a spiteful little child. But of course, you are free to break all ties with the West, if you want, I just don't see how that helps you against the Russian "hordes".

"Eastern Eu. is not threatened by the Muslims..."

Tell that to the Serbs and Bulgarians.

"...multiculturalism is nonexistent..."

Don't forget about your substantial Gypsy problem. The EU will take care that you will get your share of muslim "refugees", too. Leaving the EU would allow you to fix that, but I suppose, keeping the EU's financial support enjoys higher priority (and the Russian "hordes", too, of course).

Henrik R Clausen said...

Felicie said:
Americans see Russia as the Evil Empire - a country that is inherently bad, brutal, and aggressive, and that cannot possibly redeem itself under any regime.

Which would be a rather difficult situation. The Soviet Union, which lacked a very basic feature of civilization: The Right to Private Property, was like that. It collapsed. Reagan, who actually didn't interfere that much - he just asked the Soviets to *stop* interfering in Europe - had a significant part in that happening peacefully.

Europeans see Russia as just another opportunistic power, along the lines of the British or Austro-Hungarian Empire or Napoleonic France.

Something like that. I think I'd take out Napoleonic France, partly because of its permanent wars, partly because we're suffering a new kind of French imperialism through Bryssel and Strasbourg.

For Russia, 'opportunistic' is it. Democracy has been suspended and the arverage Russian is fine with that. It's 'undemocratic', but hardly 'evil'. Since most Russians support the current state of government and the economy is doing fine (both in contrast with the US, remarkably), there is no justfied or justifyable hope to trigger a regime change like when the Soviet Union collapsed. That evil empire is gone, which is good.

If you want to see 'evil'. look a bit further to the south, and a bit west. There you have people building nukes in order to take out the Jews, you have people plotting and executing lethal terror against innocents, and you have people systematically undermining Western democratic institutions in order to replace it with an eternal theocratic system. All while exploiting the religious sentiment of the average citizen for their purposes. That's evil!

Russia, in contrast with the Soviet Union, is Christian. That gives us some common ground that is underused, where we could build friendship (with a respectful distance) instead of taunting each other like we see now.

Bela said:
We are pleased to see the rapid sinking of Britain. The hatred is mutual, no symphaty expressed.

For everyone's information, I have lots of friends in East Europe. None express hateful sentiment like here. That would lead us down a path of multiple warfare.

Bela: Please stop trolling. Thank you.

Felicie said...

Henrik R Clausen: "For Russia, 'opportunistic' is it. Democracy has been suspended and the arverage Russian is fine with that. It's 'undemocratic', but hardly 'evil'. Since most Russians support the current state of government and the economy is doing fine (both in contrast with the US, remarkably), there is no justfied or justifyable hope to trigger a regime change like when the Soviet Union collapsed. That evil empire is gone, which is good."

I agree. I should add that it's a country that is plagued by corruption. Anti-democratic measures were introduced by Putin, in the first place, as an attempt to crack down on corruption on high levels of government and economic management. But it still remains rampant on the grass-roots level. Anti-democratic tendencies are themselved kept in check by corruprion. The laws might exist on the books, but nobody enforces them. In fact, the situation in Georgia is very similar in this respect to that of Russia, with Saakashvili - an authoritarian ruler who introduced undemocratic measures to fight corruption. But he was more successful. I read that the Georgian police no longer takes bribes, which is quite unprecedented. Anyway, to return to Russia, I don't think it is an inherently evil country. I would describe it as corrupt and somewhat undemocratic, but not to the degree of complete totalitarianism. There is still a very robust spectrum of opinions in the Russian press and the blogosphere. The Putin/Medvedev government is very popular, and who are we to argue with the opinion of Russian people as to what government they should have? All in all, I don't see any insuperable barriers to the prospect of Russia and Europe cooperating in the vital issue of the defence of Western civilization. It could be the competitor of the West, but it doesn't necessarily have be the enemy. There is a resurgence of Christianity, patriotism, and nationalism in Russia. These are, on the whole, healthy signs, I think.

Henrik Ræder said...

I think many people don't quite understand how corruption eats into the confidence of a nation...

Bulgaria is awash in corruption, too. Everyone does it. That, in turn, renders anti-corruption campaigns ineffective, for they will just destroy what little confidence exists in the political elite.

In Bulgaria, one is expected to bring benefits to friends and family when possible. Not doing so is considered egotistical.

Defiant Lion said...

@Bela

"In the name of the millions of dead and tortured by the Soviet-Russian imperialism we hail Pres. Reagan interference in our life for without it we would be all exterminated at the Ultimate Pleasure of the BNP.
We are pleased to see the rapid sinking of Britain. The hatred is mutual, no symphaty expressed."

Your hate-filled posts bring shame to GoV, your ignorance shames you.

First, I have no hatred for anybody. But I refuse to support evil no matter who commits it.

Second, had my relatives and my countrymen not fought a certain evil 60 years ago you would now be under the jackboot. And you hate Britain do you? How much hate you carry, must be a real burden for you.

Third. If you can use your brain instead of your hate for all things Russian, you will realise that "not meddling in other nations" applies to all nations including Russia and most definitely the USA who are provoking Russia on her borders.

Fourth: Again, if you engage your brain and turn off the hate switch just for a second, you will also realise that "not meddling in the affairs of other nations UNLESS INTERESTS ARE DIRECTLY THREATENED" certainly appiles to what Saakashvili and Georgia have done in relation to innocent Russian civilians in South Ossetia and also explains why Russia has reacted with force after first asking the UN to intervene - a request slapped down by the USA. Can you work out why?

Finally, as I am tired of reading and answering your hatred and racism and this will be my final reply to you, you are living in the past. Your hatred of Russia means that you will condone any act against Russia and her citizens, including genocide and ethnic cleansing which is exactly what the USA and Georgia have just committed. And in so doing you show yourself as no better than the people who oppressed you, in fact you are exactly the same as they are.

Bela said...

pasta:

1."Hear hear, what treacherous snakes we invited into NATO and EU. :-("
The NATO has zero credibility: Poland asked for separate American-Polish treaty because everybody knows that there will be no help from Belgium in case of Russian invasion. Nothing will come from the Frogs (Les grenouilles) either only cheap talk.

2. The Russian occupation of Eastern Europe, the actions of their Quislings collaborators is well documented, countless books are written about it: you can deny it as much as you want; it makes you a Commie apologist a hated species in the East. That's all.
3. Hu. Gypsies are not part or the product of your beloved multiculturalism: they are called "minority" like the Blacks in the US: they speak .HU and all who have a little bit of education blend into the mainstream.
Muslims in E. EU...you have no idea about the people's mentality over there: even the E.Germans beat up the Turks and do not tolerate radical Anti-German manifestations like the pussycat Brits. Can you imagine a mosque and raging imams in Belgrade?
Sir you are very much uninformed on the E.European way of life, mentality, customs and the likes.

henrik raeder:
If you call me a troll and want to banish me for expressing the opinions and common sentiment of the E.Europeans then I can call you a pompous, arrogant snob that you are. You are pontificating and spewing hot air like a mullah on top of a minaret.
_______________________________________
This hated debate finally exposed the reality: the Western European Anti-Americanism - which is legendary -and pro Russian tilt, the E. European skepticism toward the EU (Czech Rep. opposition to it, Poland's distrust) and the American disillusionment with the drooling, blathering, pontificating Europe.

defiant lion:
Anti-Americanism in its purest form:

"genocide and ethnic cleansing which is exactly what the USA and Georgia have just committed"

Why are you got pissed off if we return the same love what you feel towards the genocidal USA...Ah! - the EU must be loved ...you'd better internalize the fact that your anti-Americanism is noted and returned in-kind.

Henrik R Clausen said...

If you call me a troll.

I didn't. I requested you (politely) to stop trolling. That refers only to your hateful and bigotet statements, not to you as a person.

My request for civility stands.

Afonso Henriques said...

Bela, your victimization speaks for itself. No wonder you support the angelical Georgians.

Protestant, So, the USSR was a "Russian Nationalist Empire"? Nice... and that because they promoted the Russian language...
Please... I know you were trying to make me look trough "your side of things" but that, somehow does not make any sense.

From the second half of the XIX century untill now, and, making a blind eye to Communism, the Russians helped the European Balkanic Nations to get ridd of the Turks, and gave to the Polish a (too) big State, miles into German heart land. I'll not even mention what happened in the Balkans since 1989, Russia was on the "good side" then.
Also, can you really imagine a Russian invasion/massive atack on the United Kingdom? Me neither. But a powerfull Russia may do a lot to strenghten the Britts... and maybe even support them.

For me the real deal is: "Is Russia better than the European Union?"
I think I must quit learning French and start mastering the Cyrilic Alphabet.

Bela,
"I believe Eastern Europeans can expect only hostilities from the Western EU members"

Actually, I was against that massive Slavic enlargement. If it dependep upon me, those ten States would not e a part of the European Union. But since then, I liked to see the stamina of the Czech and that other Polish president and his brother.

But, if you are going to do that figure you made by flying to Tiblissi. I think you do disearve those hostilities. And what about the missile shield?
My conclusion: The ones who rule Poland nowadays are somehod not sane. Such a country should leave NATO (and Turkey as well).

Afonso Henriques said...

Bela,

"and we'd better wake up from our unfounded illusion according which we are part of the West. We are not."
Of course you are!!!
And Russia as well! Samuel Huntington is not a God and his thesis had many flaws. His division of Europe in West and the Orthodox world, his division of the Americans as the West and Latin America shows two things:
1st, his Cold War mentality;
2nd, his Anglicism, or Anglo derived xenofobism...

How can one say that 90% Spanish Spain is undoubtedly Western and then go to classify 90% white Argentina as Latin?
That Civilisation is European. Of course, the West shares much in common with the East and I'd not considered peoples to the East of Germans or Italians to be Western in that sense (but, what's the West without Greece...), and the Finnish are very dubious to be Western. You see, the West has the same sense as saying that everything South of Northern France and East of Germany is not white...

So you pick. Are you European? Of course. Russia as well.

"We should support the spread of multiculturalism and encourage the Muslim immigration and takeover by them of Western Europe."

You see, that Eastern tase for blood and destruction...

"Eastern Eu. is not threatened by the Muslims for their nationalist feeling is strong, they are no pussycats, multiculturalism is nonexistent, self-loathing is un-cool and finally no financial benefit can be offered to the imams."

Get serious. Tell that to the Serbs, the Montenegrins, the Greeks, the Romanians, the Ukrainians, the Bulgarians...
Also, gypsies in Hungary are many, and in Poland... it's easy after the Russians had killed all the Germans and gave you a State right in the German heart land. For how long do you think Poland in Germany will survive? Untill the Germans say enough, that is. And by that time, Belarus will already be Russian. A partition as demanded by the Russian Nationalists cames to mind.

"The realignment of the minds has begun."
Yes indeed.

Defiant Lion said...

@Bela

Foul language and yet more insults and it now seems your hatred muddles your comprehension.

Calling the USA "ethnic cleansers" isn't anti-americanism. It is a statment of fact that objects to war crimes of the kind that cause you to hate Russians. But your hatred isn't just anti-russianism is it?

And as I made clear that I am a British nationalist, this means that I am totally against the EU, a simple deduction really. And you might also deduce - if you can stop hating so much - that as Britain is a part of NATO, I am also accusing the British government under Blair of involvement in the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina and of the criminal bombing of civilians in Serbia and Iraq. War crimes they should be tried for and if found guilty, executed.

None of which are any use at addressing the issue at hand here, the ethnic cleansing of Russians in South Ossetia by Georgia with the full knowledge and backing of Washington, which again, constitutes a war crime.

Thankfully, the Russians were able to send the criminal aggressors packing, something the Serbs were unable to do.

What you are unable to grasp is that the USA is now behaving in the same manner as the soviets who oppressed you and your people. Such oppression was wrong and inexcusable then and it is wrong and inexcusable now no matter which country commits the crime, and that includes the USA.

Afonso Henriques said...

Cobra,

My post may be simplist, but I do not think it was stupid.

Albania was a State before the Turks? I want to see your references...

Albania's population is comprised of Turks from Turkey. 75% of which are Islamicised Serbs, Greeks and that. Albanian people as such did not exist before the Turks. Nor is Albanian an Indo-European language. It's Caucasian, like Georgian.

Moldova was not a State. It was legitimately a region of Romania as you pointed out. That does not make Moldova a State, it makes it part of a State. Trasnistra, I'd say it's Russian/Ukrainian lands.

"Russians conquered in every direction.
And only those conquered countries can understand the savagery of the russians."

B.S. It was Communism. Before, that, it was Pan-Slavism. Before that? The East of Europe had four powers: Turkey, Austria, Germany and Russia. Somehow, I think the Russias were not that bad.

"Why are the Central and Eastern European countries so afraid of the russians and why are they so vociferous right now?"

Because they know how not legitimate their borders are. And also, because they equate Russia with Communism. Also, because America pay them good. Also, because it's annoying having a nuclear power on our borders.

"The rapes, killings and stealing by the russian troupes are legendary all over Eastern Europe."

Soviet, man, Soviet... under the red Communist star, not under the two headed Eagle of Constantinople.

pasta said...

@Bela

"The NATO has zero credibility: Poland asked for separate American-Polish treaty because everybody knows that there will be no help from Belgium in case of Russian invasion. Nothing will come from the Frogs (Les grenouilles) either only cheap talk."

Ok, maybe you are right and the NATO is dead. We tend to feel bound by treaties we signed, but indeed, why should a Western European die in order to rescue people who welcome the destruction of his own countries by multiculturalism? Let's hope for your country that enough Americans can be spared and are willing to die for it in case of war, unlike it was the case in Georgia. I also wonder, if enough Eastern Europeans are willing to die for Georgia, although I doubt it.

The heck, if you have such a moral impetus about helping Georgia and so much scorn about NATO and Western Europe, why don't you go there and pick up a fight with the Russians? Who is talking cheap here?

"The Russian occupation of Eastern Europe,..."

I asked not about the occupation, but about the purported genocide of Eastern European peoples. And it was not Russia, but the USSR who occupied your country. It is telling how persistent you are in confusing Russia with the USSR.

"Gypsies are not part or the product of your beloved multiculturalism..."

Now I am supposed to love multiculturalism! Your are so desperately lacking in persuasive arguments, that you must resort to slander in order to score a point.

"...they are called "minority" like the Blacks in the US: they speak .HU and all who have a little bit of education blend into the mainstream."

I see. So everything is peace, love and harmony in Hungary then. May you have better luck in assimilating your "blacks" than America had so far.

"Muslims in E. EU...you have no idea about the people's mentality over there: even the E.Germans beat up the Turks..."

Not anymore. Don't believe stories spread about rampaging Neonazis in Eastern Germany, they are not true.

"...and do not tolerate radical Anti-German manifestations like the pussycat Brits. Can you imagine a mosque and raging imams in Belgrade?
Sir you are very much uninformed on the E.European way of life, mentality, customs and the likes."

You believe, what has befallen Western Europe, can't befall you. I believe, you are mistaken. Eastern Europeans will become just as thoroughly pussified just as even Italians and Spaniards are today, if they aren't already.

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

The following seems circular to me:

Anybody who displays in writing or in speech these words as: RACIST! FASCIST! NAZI! BUSHITLER! etc. is lost any argument without further need to discuss anything at all.

These labels are the main tools of the radical leftist/fascist to intimidate, silence, put to shame anybody who are expressing dissenting opinion or differing from their talking point.


In order to circle in on the close loop:
According to you, anyone who calls someone else a "fascist" is a fascist. And by saying so, and by the power of your implication, you have labeled yourself a fascist (and have also lost the argument judged by your own standards).

The word 'fascist' has indeed become bereft of any meaning whatsoever.

Henrik R Clausen said...

Somehow, I think the Russias were not that bad.

The Russians had liberated the Armenian areas from Ottoman control in the late 18th century (I think it was 1874 or so). The British 'pursuaded' the Russians to hand control back to the Ottomans.

Bad move...

Henrik R Clausen said...

The NATO has zero credibility.

Not so. Many still hold it in high regard, and it does have one of the best military machines available.

Poltically, though, it is morphing in strange ways. Turkey is a troublesome component, and admitting Albania is plain weird. That *will* render NATO ineffective, I'm afraid.

Afonso Henriques said...

Bela, are you ever serious?

"The NATO has zero credibility"

Who's fault?
Those bloody Slavs and other Easterners.

We did what we did to Serbia, I am ashamed, but then, NATO, even with Turkey had credibility. Then, we went to Afghanistan, and we had credibility either.

Then came Iraq... and why did you Eastern Europeans behaved like dogs to please your American master? Why did you inconditionally supported the War in Iraq?

And why, after two weeks having neglected Georgia's entry in NATO, do the Polish, Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian Presidents fly to Tiblissi, showing support for the country no one wants to die for, no one wants to help, and that NATO had neglected?

Is it to strengthen NATO?

Why do the Poles want that missile shield? So that the Russian nuclear weapons can be targeting Europe? Guess what, if Russians want they can destroy Warsow, and it's not America that will stop them.
But America will stop a nuclear attack in Brussels, Paris, London, or even Lisbon, where I'm at, confortaly looking at this events...

A clear pattern emerges to differenciate the Western Europeans and the Eastern Europeans. Being Western, the former Colonial Powers, free Nations of the West and being Eastern Europeans the former slaves of Germans (and the Austrian variaty), Swedes, Turks and the Slavic peoples in general:

The Western are willing to fight their wars. The Easterners? The Easterners wait for somebody to fight for them...
Shame on you!

"Hu. Gypsies are not part or the product of your beloved multiculturalism: they are called "minority" like the Blacks in the US: they speak .HU and all who have a little bit of education blend into the mainstream."

Yeah, blacks and gypsies... I still prefer the Russians...

Funny how Bela claims that Russians are bad because they "are not Western enough" but takes pride exactley on the same "lack of Westernity" in the other Eastern European peoples.

Really: For Bela, she is indistinguishable from Russians, yet she is good and Russians are bad, because the last ones are, were and will continue to be Russians, their original sin. If this is not racism, I don't know what is. Can anyone tell me what this is? Please...

Conservative Swede said...

Baron,

One can’t help but admire the Russian ability to play steely-eyed hardball.

Yes indeed. It's a beautiful move. The Russians have always been great chess players. The most wonderful aspect of it is that America's phony imperialism is being called; this substance-less, immoral and irresponsible imperialism-without-a-cause. This sort of chess will push America into doing some serious soul-searching, with two possible outcomes: i) starting to behave as a proper empire, or ii) staying out of international affairs. Both vast improvements compared to the ugly utopian empire-in-denial that America is today.

Henrik R Clausen said...

CS is right on target regarding the name-calling.

Only to those who still read books does the term 'fascist' still have a meaning. But for those, the meaning is precise and important.

Those, on the other hand, who use it merely for name-calling, are emulating Stalin, something pointed out succinctly by George Orwell:

The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable."

Conservative Swede said...

In continuation of my previous comment. Staying on this theme of chess. It's not difficult to imagine a couple of moves back and forth and then America comes to the point where she has no other option but to question her whole phony imperialism, her role as altruistic world police--this nihilistic and destructive stance.

So what will happen then? It makes me think of the British Empire. How could it fall? There was no reason really. Well, it fell because the Brits stopped believing in themselves as an empire; simple as that. I think the same will happen to America. America lacks the stamina to play that role.

The day that the American paper tiger is exposed for what it really is--when this has manifested itself in a real conflict, e.g. with Russia--then the mindset of the people and the rulers, in every single country, will go through a substantial reshuffle. The prevailing world order will have fallen, and the game will change from chess to ice-hockey.

This is all good and necessary. New power constellations will arise. Before it has stabilized, which can take a couple of decades, many armed conflicts will arise around the world. European countries will finally find reason to build proper military forces, defend their borders etc. Nihilistic and destructive utopian ideas (egalitarianism, multiculturalism, global liberalism etc.) will wither. A dream scenario--and it looks fairly likely :-)

The day NATO disintegrates I will salute in champagne.

Afonso Henriques said...

Conservative Swede,
"The day NATO disintegrates I will salute in champagne."

I will cerainly not.
My Nation is not European as Sweden or Spain, but Atlantic as Ireland, the United States and Great Britain. Any move away from the Atlantic and my pocket (and so much more) gets lighter.

But the day the European Union does, I'll make a big party and you're all invited!

Cobra said...

@Alfonso

My assessment of your cultural depth still stands.

Albania was known as Illyria. Its population is amongst the oldest in Europe.

And the fact that you find excuses for russians and you fault the small countries in E. Europe shows how deluded you are.

Al what I can suggest is read, man, read...

Bela said...

This debate goes well beyond the Georgian question and it started to cover much wider subjects which is normal and understandable.
I am unable to counter the avalanche of hostile response one by one: I respect opposing views and I protest any attempt to silence or instill feeling of guilt by labeling anybody as RACIST even though there were no racial questions implicated in any of my reply, nor I used foul epithet. The sole purpose of labeling is to intimidate and silence the opposition.

cons.swede:
I trust you intellect, to wit, you have the capability to properly interpret my words without artificially twisting it: I expressed my revulsion at labeling anybody with anything thus you shouldn't assign hidden or esoteric meaning to my words.

defiant lion:
It would be interesting to learn more about the BNP from you.

According to Wikip:
"The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right and whites only political party in the United Kingdom.
The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races."

So much about RACISM.

pasta:
"why don't you go there and pick up a fight with the Russians? Who is talking cheap here?"
As a young student I fought the Russians in '56 in Budapest for which I was sentenced to years of prison and + 10 years of loss of civil rights and hard labor after being released.
I am too old now. Satisfied?

afonso henriques:
Sorry pal, seemingly you are living in a different Universe and as a result I am unable to comprehend the gushing flow of incoherent diction you produce. What is your point?

pasta said...

@Bela

"As a young student I fought the SOVIETS in '56 in Budapest for which I was sentenced to years of prison and + 10 years of loss of civil rights and hard labor after being released.
I am too old now. Satisfied?" (quotation modified)

Thank you for telling us. That was indeed heroic and admirable of you, even though the fight was eventually futile. Did you hope back then that the West would come to help?

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

There's nothing esoteric with what I wrote. It's the simplest kind of observation. You object to people labeling others "fascist", while you at the same time yourself describe other people as fascist. In the first case it's an aversion against PC style labeling, in the second case it's an instance of the Christopher Hitchens' syndrome, where everything one dislikes is labeled as "fascist".

The two does not go well together.

And regarding this comment of yours:
We should support the spread of multiculturalism and encourage the Muslim immigration and takeover by them of Western Europe. It's a fair response to their indifference towards our life and their apology for the genocidal Russian hordes.

Well, you have now disqualified yourself from any respect in this forum.

All in all, you have clearly become intoxicated by drinking too much of American liberalism (neocon style).

Defiant Lion said...

@Bela

You sir are a thoroughly disingenuous individual who seeks to smear those who disagree with you rather than engage in fair debate.

I have not resorted to your gutter tactic of ad hominem abuse, nor have I personally insulted you.

You on the other hand continually resort to personal abuse in an effort to smear me because you cannot refute my argument that Georgia and the US have commited a war crime against Russians in South Ossetia.

Your latest nasty little attack now seeks to label me with that bankrupt, marxist-liberal Orwellian thought-crime - of being a racist because I support the BNP. A snide tactic used to stiffle debate and criticism of marxist doctrine. You are using it in the same way. Well done.

This debate is about what has happened to innocent Russians in South Ossetia. I have no intention of debating the BNP with you because you are not genuine, you are seeking to distract and smear and not discover truth.

What is absolutely odious about your posts is that you openly hate everyting Russian. Yet you come from Hungary, a nation who sided with Nazi Germany and who produced that vile organisation the Arrow Cross. As you're so fond of wiki:

The Arrow Cross

Should the rest of Europe and especially Israel hate everything Hungarian because of Hungarian atrocities? The answer would be a resounding yes if everyone followed your shameful example towards Russia for what the soviets did. Thankfully, not everyone is like you, blinded by hatred because of events from the past.

As you are now ensconced in the gutter and now seeking to divert this debate instead of offering evidence to prove that Georgia and the USA have acted lawfully, I will not debate with you further.

Bela said...

pasta,
Before the Russians hanged the entire legitimate government the prime minister Imre Nagy issued a desperate plea to the world on November the 4th. asking help to stop the invasion of 1000 Russian tanks, infantry and aerial bombardment. He asked the UN too.
We had high hope and waited for miracle to happen.
The voice in the radio went silent and Beethoven's Leonora Overture was played continuously for days on end.

The West remained silent like now. The West remained silent when he Russians invaded Prague in '68.

The reason for the invasion was according to the Russians:
"To protect the achievements of Socialism from the reactionary Western imperialism"

For those whose memory receded into the recesses of history:
Putin was a SOVIET KGB agent in that era. His conversion is purely incidental.

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

Putin was a SOVIET KGB agent in that era.

And that's why you compare him to Hitler, right?

I must say, Bela. You have the most self-defeating debating style I've seen for very long.

Let me repeat your own words:
Anybody who displays in writing or in speech these words as: RACIST! FASCIST! NAZI! BUSHITLER! etc. is lost any argument without further need to discuss anything at all.

Do you believe anything you say yourself? Do your own words at all have any meaning to yourself?

Bela said...

Amazing isn't it?
A quote from Wikipedia provoked a virulent rage at me instead of at the source. I added no opinion on my own to the quote.

Recommended reading:
Mark Steyn, America Alone (banned in the Socialist Canada)
Writings of Victor Hanson.

Wishing good America Bashing for all of you
Best Regards

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

I'm sorry to say, but you have no honour.

Bela said...

cons.sweed;
"Putin was a SOVIET KGB agent in that era."

This is a factual statement - why are you so upset about it? Did I say anything about Herr H.? Why so many people get agitated for nothing?

Is it a crime to be pro American on this forum? McCain said he saw 3letters in Putin's eye: K.G.B.
Then what?
Do you expect total submission from all the posters to your ideology? If yes, why? If no, then why are you so upset?

Afonso Henriques said...

Cobra, I like to read.

Can you please give me something to read?
I'd like to read some saurces or links that go in depth about the Illyrian origins of the Albanian people. If you can find more than pro-Albanian Wikipedia articles that is.

I would really apreciate it.
AFonso.

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

He he, you didn't read much of what I wrote, did you?

Did I say anything about Herr H.?

If you go back to my comment you will see something that is called a hyperlink. It's an Internet thingy making a reference to another web page. Click on it and it will all be clearer.

Why so many people get agitated for nothing?

You are almost funny.

Is it a crime to be pro American on this forum?

I think that wishing for Western Europe to perish (and calling for actively supporting it) is what causes you problems in this forum.

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

To be serious for a moment. You are an old man. This makes it hard to change. Old narratives and myths stick very hard to the mind also for younger people. What we are witnessing is the collapse of the old world order, the old West and the old America. And your personal collapse in this thread is just an instance of the same thing.

And such a collapse (of the old world order) is a conceptual collapse, as when a paradigm falls in under the weight of its own self-generated anomalies.

Bela said...

Cons.swede:
It may sounds devastating to you but I did not collapse at all, neither physically nor intellectually: I can perfectly behold the changing world in front of me. I see the end of the Western liberalism, including the self loathing Leftist American variant, the changing demography and all what most likely these changes entail.
The West turned into chaos, the end game of democracy, something like what happened to the Weimar Republic: the cure is the emergence of fascistoid regimes.
My personal dilemma is that I equally hate the degenerate West and its totalitarian medication and my personal, individual creed is to weaken both of them, a quixotic endeavor but what other choices one can have?
As a French educated E. European I can see the victory of the totalitarian Marxism in the EU thus I am strongly anti EU and pro American not in the least because America is still armed and will resist longer than the Eu.
Russia: Great Artist, writers, Painters, musicians in a sea of barbarians who rule with iron hand and where human life is cheap and worthless. I know it, you don't: let's leave it at it.
Please don't be so sensitive: Why are you so hell bent on protecting the self loathing rotten European establishment? They declared war on themseves, Christianity, and cartoonist...Gordon Brown the Leper?...come on...

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

This comment of yours starts well, but nevertheless ends in confusion:

Please don't be so sensitive: Why are you so hell bent on protecting the self loathing rotten European establishment?

Let me ask you a question first:
Why do you claim that the moon is made of cheese?

I will probably be able to take your answer to that and paste it in as an answer to your question to me.

Generally you have been in a remarkable state of confusion through-out this thread, first I thought it was due to stirred up emotions as well as dishonesty, but now I wonder if it's something else.

Afonso Henriques said...

I think Bela like people should see the intreview on the former Georgian President, Sheverdnadze:

It apeares that the Russians are such barbarians that they even hear the other side. Their barbarism alows them to publish the intreview

here

and the video here

Some words by the man the U.S. deposed because he was too friendly with Russia:

"Whatever the price, we have to fix the relationship between Georgia and Russia. Whatever the price. (...) I'm going to say for the first time. Georgia is a civilised country, but in its history there were times when it had to sell its children on the Istanbul markets - they were then taken to Egypt. And it was not only boys, but girls too. Their mothers tried to convince them how sweet their lives would be there.
When the Russians came, they banned this slavery. And I can't but say this - that the Russians actually saved Georgia. Why is it, that today America is the only country who has influence on Georgian politics? Do they really need to put us at war with Ossetia? It's logically not right. It was our leaders' decision to do all this aggression. It was exclusively the decision of the Georgian state. And I believe we made a mistake, a very serious mistake."

"I cannot say that Russia today initiates another cold war. But the fact that radars are being installed in the Czech Republic and Poland is a sign of a new cold war. (..) We have no reason to start this war. The question you’re asking, it’s better to ask our American friends. Yes, they are friends, but I cannot understand at all why the Americans now have started to put these radars on European territory. I cannot understand it, I just cannot understand their motives. I'm not young and I am a very experienced politician and when I make analysis of their behavior, I cannot see any logical reason why they need this now. (...)
I don’t understand why they're installing these new radar systems. Who needs them? They say it’s against Iran, but look where is Iran and where is the Czech republic?"

Sleep well, if your conscience allows you to do so.

Cobra said...

Gents,
I stayed out of volley of words directed to Bella.

He is, for the most part, correct.

The only part is disagree is wishing the West to fall to the muslim hordes or having a similar fate.
I fled Eastern Europe many years ago and I witnessed the progress of socialism in the USA, where I live.

The West never fully won the Cold War.
Otherwise, the entire Eastern Europe and Russia will be as well as the former East Germany.
Obviously, it's not, but the people are better off today than 20 years ago and, hopefully, they will be better tomorrow than today.
All of us who lived under the EVIL communist regimes, understand much better what is happening in the western societies now.
We are inoculated, or immunized if you prefer.
By the way, the cry of "racism" is a typical communist tactic to put the opponent in a defensive posture.

So, please treat Bella better, if only for his life under the absolute EVIL communist regime.

I post the goals of communism for your enlightenment, and I let you decide which goals have NOT been achieved:

Goals of Communism



1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces.
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use "united force" to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.

-- Congressional Record, Appendix, pp. A34-A35, January 10, 1963

Defiant Lion said...

@Cobra:

Yes cultural marxism is destroyting the west, but this debate isn't about whether or not the soviets were evil, nor is it about marxism.

You say Bela is mostly correct. Yet still these questions remain unanswered and as you support Bela then maybe you can provide some evidence:

1. Is what the US did to the Serbs in the Krajina evil?

2. Is what the US has just done with its ally Georgia in South Ossetia evil? Hint: It's the sane trick as stated in 1.

3. How about Iraq and Afghanistan?

4. Why is NATO recruiting Baltic states? In fact why, after Reagan had agreed to disband it with Gorbachev,is NATO still around even after the Warsaw Pact was dismantled?

5. Why is the US providing military training to Baltic states and why is it surrounding a nuclear super-power with military bases and missile defence systems?

What you and Bela seem unable to grasp is that the USA is acting in an agrressive, criminal and duplicitous manner. Its leaders lied about the Serbs, lied about Iraq and are now lying about what actually happened in South Ossetia.

Using the past to find a nation always guilty is ridiculous and also simplifies situations. USA = always good, Russia = always bad. But its funny how such an appraisal of what is evil does not apply to Hungary, a nation who supported Nazi Germany, executed 15000 jews and sent another 80000 to the nazi death camps. Do you think Hungary should be as hated as much as he hates the Russians?

You also state that commenters should treat Bela better. If you read through the thread, Bela has been treated courteously treated by all, it is Bela who resorted to ad hominem, foul language and marxist smears - fascist, racist etc. If anyone needs to treat commenters better I'd say it was Bela and I'm not the only one calling for that.

Looking forward to your answers to my questions.

Bela said...

Since I am implicated in this debate one way or other let me say this:
As a person who lived under Soviet military-political occupation from 1945 till 1976 I do have the empirical experience and moral justification the share my view on this forum.
As soon I expressed my negative opinion toward Russia I got the first blow in capital letters as "RACIST".

There was no racial question under discussion so I considered the epithet as an oblique way to silence my view or instill shame or fear for not supporting the Russian action. I asked all the posters to stop any kind of intimidation tactic by using name calling, particularly by those whose belief-system is negatively portrayed by Wikipedia.

Here is the first blow:

"Afonso Henriques said...
A fast tip to the ex-Commies:
2) It's incredibly how RACIST you are.
You blame all Russians for Communism and all Germans for Nazism as if it was something that was in their DNA. You are racists and you can not proof (not even slightly) what you are saying."

I did not blame anybody we were discussing the Russian invasion, Russia imperialistic past and present and Germany was off topic.

Second blow:
"Bela who resorted to ad hominem, foul language and marxist smears - fascist, racist etc."

Did I? Foul language? Marxist smears? Where? When? Care to quote?
I was called the RACIST: I did not call anybody as such.
__________________________________

1.Serbia: I am not privy to the behind the scene Machiavellian Euro-American machination: as an outsider, I condemn the dismemberment of Serbia but powerless to stop it.
**********************************
5. Why is the US providing military training to Baltic states and why is it surrounding a nuclear super-power with military bases and missile defence systems?

Baltic States are sovereign countries having the right to enter alliances with any power of their choosing.
Venezuela's alliance with Iran and Russia, the nuclear arming of Iran by Russia, the Tartus naval base in Syria by Russia, the nuclear annihilation threat of Europe is fully supported by some on this forum.
Poland and the Czech Rep. are independent, sovereign countries free to act as they see fit.
It's absolute ridiculous to deny the right of independent nations to do whatever they want on their own territories.
***********************************
3. How about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Afghanistan: enjoys overwhelming international support, so beating dead horses make no senses.
Iraq: It can be called as the "Draining the Great Muslim Swamp".
***********************************
Hungary: There were 600.000 deportees to Auschwitz and other 200.000 died in the Eastern Front at Voronezh by the Red Army near the river Don. The Nazi collaborators and war criminals were all hanged publicly, and Hungary lost 2/3 of her historical territory for good.
I am NOT a supporter of Hungary, I left her for good.
******************************
"USA is acting in an agrressive, criminal and duplicitous manner"
Euro-Anti-Americanism at it best!
Khrushchev could not have said it better when he banged the UN table with his shoe. Common courtesy is prohibiting to make any allusion to the deep love between the two extremist parties which was well portrayed by Molotov and Ribbentrop.

Яша said...

To whomever wrote Russia and the US should be friends 'cause they both are Christian nations, Moscow is using the Orthodox Church as a tool to reassert authority over the former SSRs: Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is hoping to win recognition of the local church's independence from Moscow as part of his drive to shed centuries-long Russian influence. The Russian Orthodox Church resists losing control over this predominantly Orthodox country of 46 million."

Orthodox Constantinople fell to the Catholic Crusaders in the 13th century, both Christian as well.

On ethnic cleansing:
Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the breakaway republic, a respected human rights group claimed today. Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

Defiant Lion said...

@Bela

I do not want to debate with you, you are not genuine. But as for:

"Did I? Foul language? Marxist smears? Where? When? Care to quote?
I was called the RACIST: I did not call anybody as such."

Yes I do care to quote:

"defiant lion:
It would be interesting to learn more about the BNP from you.

According to Wikip:
"The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right and whites only political party in the United Kingdom.
The BNP asserts that there are biological racial differences that determine the behaviour and character of individuals of different races."

So much about RACISM."

A nasty, snidey attempt to side-track the debate and smear me by questioning my support for the BNP and insinuating that I am a racist because of this.

"Why are you got pissed off if we return the same love what you feel towards the genocidal USA...Ah! - the EU must be loved ...you'd better internalize the fact that your anti-Americanism is noted and returned in-kind."

Foul language and dismissing anyone who objects to the genocidal interference of the USA and NATO as pro-EU anti-americanism. Both disingenuous.

As for your answers:

1. So as you're powerless let's not care what the US did. It was only ethnic cleansing of some little slav nation it doesn't really matter.

5. So the Baltics can enter into alliances with the USA who conduct revolutions in their countries to install puppet regimes who then try to ethnically cleanse a population who may secede and Russia is supposed to just let her citizens be murdered?

Do the citizens of South Ossetia have this same right to choose who they can have as allies - as they made clear through the democratic process or are their rights invalid because they chose to remain Russians?

As for Iran,which meddling country installed the Ayotollah Khomeni? Who sold arms to Iran?

The USA denied Serbia the right to do what it wanted in its own territory and denied this to Iraq too. Now it is denying it to South Ossetia/Russia. Not content with that, the US then tries to ethnically cleanse S.O of its Russians and surrounds a nuclear power with military bases and then cries foul when Russia objects and fights back.

And the nuclear threat to Europe from Russia has now increased because of what the US is doing, it certainly isn't decreasing it.

Iraq is no draining of the muslim swamp, more like the draining of the Iraqi oil. AN illegal invasion of a sovereign nation to effect regime change all based on lies. And still no WMDs have been found.

The point I'm making about Hungary is that should the west hate it because of what it did in the same way you hate Russia for what the soviets did not whether you support it or not.

And then yet again you sink into the gutter and throw out a totally stupid "pro euro anti american" brickbat totally ignorant of the fact that you could be accused of "pro american anti communist hatred".

I'm done with you and your snidey attacks, the gutter is not a place I willl lower myself into to debate you or anyone else.

I'm through with this one.

Afonso Henriques said...

Hey Bela!

It was not name calling for what my part in this is concerned.

I simply noted your racism and hatred towards the Russians with asolutley no reason at all.

You claim all Russians were bad and will continue to be evil and you present the Communists as a reason for that.

That does'nt make any sense. I qualify it as racism.

The great big evil racist here is Diamed, but he's not as racist as you because he states that he does not like "other people" because they are primitive, ugly, have low intelligence, and have produced little in comparison to Diamed's people.

That's actually not racism because it is based in real differences. What Diamed does not like is those differences that make the "other people" not the other people per se.

You, hate the Russians and are not able to present any justification besides 90 years of Communism in fifteen centuries of Russian History. Therefore you hate Russians without a reasonable reason to hate them.

You hate because they are Russians. It doesn't matter what they do, you'll still hate them. THAT IS RACISM!!!

Diamed's case is differences, because to him, if "other people" were to do what Diamed's people do, if they were to be leveled, Diamed would accept "other people" because he would have no real base to "hate" them.

Another thing. Diamed's racism is rational, yours seems to be irrational. Please proof me wrong if it's possible but don't came here to tell that I offended you through name-calling by calling you a racist.

I did not call you a racist, I qualifyed yours sayings as RACIST, and that's what they seem (are) to be.

Please, come on...

Cobra said...

@lion

1. Is what the US did to the Serbs in the Krajina evil?
=================================
I did not know the US was in Krajina. I thought the Croats were there...
=================================

2. Is what the US has just done with its ally Georgia in South Ossetia evil? Hint: It's the sane trick as stated in 1.
=================================
What has the US done in Georgia or Ossetia?
They were not in Ossetia. Point me to the facts...
Train the Georgians?
I would have had a much better relationship with Russia, if possible, but I do not call the US support in Georgia EVIL.
Just stupid.
=================================

3. How about Iraq and Afghanistan?
=================================
US did right in Afghanistan for harboring and supporting the taliban.
911 anyone?
In my humble opinion, Iraq was a strategic blunder, but it can not be called EVIL. If that was EVIL, what was the Saddam regime?
=================================

4. Why is NATO recruiting Baltic states? In fact why, after Reagan had agreed to disband it with Gorbachev,is NATO still around even after the Warsaw Pact was dismantled?
=================================
Maybe you can provide proof that Reagan agreed to disband NATO. I have never read such thing.
As for the NATO membership of the Baltic countries, pros and cons can be found.
See my Georgia answer as a template re. this...
=================================

5. Why is the US providing military training to Baltic states and why is it surrounding a nuclear super-power with military bases and missile defence systems?
==================================
Since the Baltic states are in NATO why not bring them to the NATO standards?
See the previous answer re. the NATO membership.
Bases? Where?
Only in Romania and Bulgaria, which they wanted as sovereign states.
Romania at least is the most pro-American Eastern European state along Poland, because they have been savaged so many times in history by the russians, with and without communism...
====================================

Any more questions?

The Americans are not perfect, but the russians are so imperfect that your parallels are laughable.
The more russians behave like, well, the russians, the less the wisdom of those ex-communist countries getting into NATO can be challenged, in my humble opinion of an ex-east european, whose grandfather was sent to work camps.

Defiant Lion said...

Cobra:

"The Americans are not perfect, but the russians are so imperfect that your parallels are laughable."

Really? Let's all have a good laugh then:

1. "I did not know the US was in Krajina. I thought the Croats were there..."

Do you know what thought did?

Of course the Croats were there. So were the US. The operation to cleanse the Krajina was called "Operation Storm" - how funny is that? Here, this will give you a really good laugh:

The War In Yugoslavia

2. So you admit the USA supports Georgia and this is stupid. So the USA supports a regime (a police state btw) that has just tried to pre-empt S.O seceding by cleansing it of Russians and you think the USA is "stupid". You have a great sense of humour. Seriously.

3. Afghanistan and the taliban committed 9/11 did they? More like the Saudis. Bombing civilians and invading a nation to effect regime change after lying to your own people isn't a blunder it's a war crime. War crimes are evil. In my book anyway. But I hope you're still laughing I don't want to spoil the fun.

4. Pros and cons can be found with everything. But an organisation that bombed civilian targets in Serbia for 78 days isn't an organisation that should exist and I for one don't want my country to have anything to do with such criminals. NATO's remit died with the old USSR. It is now being used to further solely US global hegemony. What is dangerous here is that had Georgia waited until it was a NATO member, we could now be at war with a nuclear super power. How funny is that?

5. And missile defence systems in Poland. Would the USA find this "laughabe" if the Russians did the same say in Mexico? I don't think they'd see the funny side. Maybe they lack your talent for humour.

Another interesting article here:

Blowback From Bear Baiting

And here:

Byzantine Sacred Art Blog

Should keep you laughing for hours on end.

"The Americans are not perfect, but the russians are so imperfect that your parallels are laughable.
The more russians behave like, well, the russians"

Lovely remark. Actually, no it isn't it is a piece if offensive garbage that shames this blog. Why not ask the Serbs if they share your high standards of behaviour? Or even your witty sense of humour - they could do with a good laugh.

Perhaps they're too busy crying - and not with laughter - at what the good old USA has criminally inflicted upon their nation and people to support and further the cause of Islam.

After your disgusting remark about Russian people you too are now ensconced in the gutter with Bela.

At least you can share a good laugh at the Russians of South Ossetia.

That's me, I'm well and truly done with this, the hate on show is repulsive, I'll leave you to your hatred it is not something I can stomach to be frank.

Bela said...

afonso henrique:
I tried to avoid any verbal confrontation with you so I wont' plunge into any polemic, I am going to be pithy and articulate.
American citizens are still free to say whatever they want short of inciting for murder. We have the right to hate or despise the Russians or Europeans even Portugal and we don't care a hoot what you think or don't think for that matter.
Try to internalize that you and your country are insignificant: we are free to be racist, mean, imperialist, whatever and the Euros can go to pound sand and call the UN or the idiot Barroso.

2. Food for thought: In the light of the vociferous pent-up anti-Americanism that infested much of the EU and which is on a par with the hostile Soviet propaganda we'd better rethink LGF Charles suggestion that we better leave Europe to their own devices for America has gotten nothing to do with the French, Brit or Dutch imported imams running amok.
Instead let's buy popcorn and watch Europe to submerge into the sewer of her own making.
Europeans as a whole hate the US more than they hate their Muslims since they import more and more; they are hopeless anyway...why bother?

Afonso Henriques said...

Bela, just to end:

How childish!

"let's buy popcorn and watch Europe to submerge into the sewer of her own making."

Darling,
what you haven't understood already is that, while Europe will take a century to "submerge", America will "submerge" in less than thirty years, and if the champion of diversity is elected, what seems possible, it will "submerge" in ten years...
Do I like it? No. Do I want it to happen? No. Would I do anything to prevent it? If I am capable, yes, of course.

"Try to internalize that you and your country are insignificant: we are free to be racist, mean, imperialist, whatever..."

Yeah. Why are you so different?
Wait, maybe I am also a great American, a truly American patriot. All I have to do is to leave my insignificant country and then I'll be entitled to help the muslims to rape the Serbs, or to bomb Serb civilians. So please, don't come to me talking about insignificant countries... twice. Trice with Ossetia right?

But maybe, you'll have to leave the United States. Wait, maybe Russia will be the next super power and then you can move to Russia and grasp about the U.S. of A. right?

Then, the Russians will be entitled to be racist, mean... what more?

Untill then, I'll just stick to what I've said in this thread. Do what you will, but I think you could start using reason and fighting in the good side...
like you did in 1956... perhaps, half a century ago things were easier, things were more clear right?

Think about what you've said in all this thread Bela, just think. I'll stop visiting this thread. Have a good night.

Conservative Swede said...

Bela,

You never answered Felicie's question to you:

From your earlier posts I thought that your position was that it was the Evil Jews who were behind communism. Now it seems you are saying it was the Evil Russians' fault. So who was the main villain among the two groups?

So which one is it? You cannot have it both ways. It's only Diamed who is licensed to forever contradicting himself, when one day all problems of the West is because of the Jews, the next it's all because of women's liberation, and the following day all comes down to IQ -- where both of the latter contradict the first. Also, how much of the evil should be attributed to the Georgian Stalin?

It's a very simple question. You should be able to answer it.

Bela said...

Cons. swede:
This thread is about to reach its end: Please don't play the ignorant for you are an astute and educated man, you perfectly know the History of Marxism-Communism, its originators and purveyors and chief protagonists from the very beginning till today. You know well who is who in the Red Plague.
May be this can help refresh your memory:
Zweihundert Jahre zusammen. Die Juden in der Sowjetunion (Gebundene Ausgabe)
von Alexander Solschenizyn (Autor)
www.amazon.de

I took great care to distinguish between the Hungarian Edward Teller and other Manhattan project Jewish participants (Leo Szilard) and the Communist Rosenberg spies who sold their country to the Soviets.
I am very strict about it. This subject better belong to a different thread.