Sunday, May 10, 2009

Pro-Köln, German Nationalism, and America-Hatred

In the comments to Friday’s post about Pro-Köln, the Editrix offered some constructive criticism. The issues she raised are worth tackling in their own post.

The relevant sections of her comment are in italicized blocks, and my responses are inserted below them:

You are not privy to all the private correspondence that passes back and forth between German Islam critics. My advice to you is not to jump to conclusions regarding an unanimous stance of those behind “Politically Incorrect”, or indeed, all German “anti-Jihadists” in the matter of Pro-Köln..

Your point is well taken.

Unfortunately, I think you are the one jumping to conclusions. When did I assert that they took a “unanimous stance”? If I ever said such a thing, I must have had one beer too many.

If you actually read my posts about Pro-Köln, rather than just reacting, you’ll notice that I assert only a handful of things:

  • That Pro-Köln opposes Islamization and supports traditional German values and culture,
  • that they are horribly suppressed, demonized, and politically sandbagged by the German government and the media, and
  • that claims about their “neo-Nazi” tendencies, when closely examined, turn out to have little or no basis in reliable facts.

That’s it. You won’t find me giving much more of an opinion about PK than that, because that’s all I know. I’m not German, and, although I correspond with a number of Germans, I don’t claim any expertise on German political affairs.

The Germans I do talk to have a range of opinions about the Pro-movement. Some are supportive, and some dislike the Pro-people because they tend to be old-fashioned German nationalists.

But I don’t object to German nationalism. In fact, I think nationalism is a positive thing. As long as it is embedded in a form of representative government, and does not attempt aggression beyond its borders, I see nationalism as a force for good. It is virtually our only hope of rolling back the multicultural surrender to Islamization.

When will you (plural) finally understand that there ARE NO “conservative” parties in Germany? If you still want to go to bed with them, that’s fine, but you ought at least to know what you may catch and for heaven’s sake stop selling those guys as what they clearly aren’t to unsuspecting Americans.
- - - - - - - - -
Besides what I said above, what am I “selling these guys as”? And which part of what I said was in error?

You are playing, like the proverbial ape with the razor, with OUR, the Germans’ future.

That’s ridiculous. This is a small American blog, and it has absolutely no effect on the future of Germany. Your future is entirely in the hands of the German people — and of the puppets of the French who run the EU.

That said, when will you (plural) learn that anything (but ANYthing!) with “Pro” followed by something German is per definitionem bound to belong to the vilest America-hating faction? 

Why should I care whether they hate Americans?

Americans are used to being hated. Hatred of America seems to be the principle hobby of non-American intellectuals.

I’m used to it. I lived in Europe for years, and was the object of Yank-hatred the whole time I was there.

Europeans frequently come over here to visit and revile us.

When I go to Europe nowadays, I sometimes get lectured and held in contempt, in my status as a representative of America and everything that’s wrong with it.

’Twas ever thus.

Being hated is just part of the world’s background noise for Americans. We get used to it.

However, it doesn’t make them any less miscast as saviours of our Western culture.

Once again, when did I ever say such things? You are putting words into my mouth.

The Israel-banners at “Pro” rallies are largely due to Stefan Herre, the founder of Politically Incorrect, who is as nice as a guy can be, but who doggedly refuses to see the “Pros” as what they are. Maybe that is some more information to which you are not privy. Well, now you are.

Maybe Stefan sees them correctly, and you are in error. You are both Germans. How do I know which of you is right?

Is your point that there is anti-Semitism among them? If so, perhaps there is; I don’t know.

But anti-Semitism is widespread in Europe and elsewhere, and the vast bulk of it is on the Left.

The amount of anti-Semitism on the Right pales by comparison. The “Nazi”-spotters would do well to extract the beam from their own eye before pursuing with such zeal the bits of sawdust in the eye of the Right.

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

In general, what’s happening here is something that seems to occur often: the projection of opinions, attitudes, and assertions upon me that I do not hold or make.

I write carefully, with the hope of not being misunderstood. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to read me less than closely, and thus assume I believe things that I do not.

Read what I’ve said before, and then answer the questions I asked you above. If you can find counterexamples to my points, I will readily concede.

47 comments:

Czechmade said...

Baron,

"Why should I care whether they hate Americans?

Americans are used to being hated. Hatred of America seems to be the principle hobby of non-American intellectuals.

I’m used to it. I lived in Europe for years, and was the object of Yank-hatred the whole time I was there."

By this logic we should get used to the fact that los islamos hate us whatever we do or stand for.

By this logic I lost my energy in vain defending you among Europeans and non-Europeans. You capitulated, you gave up.

We can prevail by endurance. We have specific powers in regard to Germany - we can exculpate them whenever necessary. Whenever unjust bashing takes place. But to do that we have to know the details. Those attitudes you despise are not necessarily that stable.

Top Kafir said...

Czechmade: The Baron did not w*r*i*t*e (print, verbalize, intimate, or otherwise cause to be published) that he likes being hated as an American. He stated clearly that, as an American, he is the frequent target of hatred directed at America and Americans. That is as certain a fact as is the statement "The sun also rises... ."

I have experienced it, also, to the point of rudeness and, on one occasion, physical attack. What the Baron said was that he has grown accustomed to it and has made the necessary reasonable accommodation to such irrational and hate-filled expressions by non-Americans.

He neither stated nor implied agreement with such expressions; he simply acknowledged that they exist, are ubiquitous, and have a reality, similar to the laws of physics and the inescapable phenomena of death and taxes.

I can relate.

AMDG said...

I have to say that this has not been the first circuitous post by the Editrix on this issue.

In my opinion, the Baron’s approach is the prudent one: we are allies and we do not have to be friends (even if it would be great); you manage your house, I manage mine. In the issues of common interest we collaborate, in the issues on which we have opposite interests we compromise.

We do not need to think the same, but we have to collaborate in our defence. In necessitas, unitas; in dubii, libertas; in omnibus, charitas: In necessary things unity, in doubtful things liberty, in all things charity.

Baron Bodissey said...

Czechmade --

I appreciate your concern, but America-hatred is largely irrational, and it's not worth my time and energy trying to defend against it. My efforts would be bound to fail, due to the irrationality of the hatred.

It's like Westerners asking themselves, "Why do the Muslims hate us?"

Only in this case it is even more futile, because one might appease Muslim hatred of the kafir by converting to Islam, but there is no way for an American to appease America-haters except by ceasing to be an American.

Which is what a lot of the American metrosexual elite do: they strive to become European (or at least Canadian). They don't realize that even after many years of living abroad and acquiring the language or accent of their preferred country, they will still be sneered at as Americans by the local intelligentsia.

I'm not interested in worrying about that. I'm proud to be an American. We are what we are.

I can enjoy Europeans for being what they are, too, and part of that is their hatred of America. It's just something to be aware of when you travel, like not drinking the water in Bulgaria, or staying away from the surströmming in Sweden.

You go to Europe, you dodge the spittle. No big deal.

But I don't mind if you want to defend us. That will make me happy. :)

Zenster said...

* That Pro-Köln opposes Islamization and supports traditional German values and culture,

* that they are horribly suppressed, demonized, and politically sandbagged by the German government and the media, and

* that claims about their “neo-Nazi” tendencies, when closely examined, turn out to have little or no basis in reliable facts
. [emphasis added]

I'm hoping that one of our German commentors might step in and clarify about something: Doesn't Germany still have some rather potent anti-Nazi laws on the books?

Isn't there some way for Pro-Köln to utilize lawfare such that they could impose crippling penalties upon their Antifa assailants and slandering media-based critics?

If gaming the judicial system works for the Left then all I can say is, "Sauce for the gander ..."

As to the government's own complicity in suppressing Pro-Köln, it would seem that somehow a wider appeal must be made to the common German voter in order to begin deposing all of these Multiculturalist politicians.

My own understanding of German politics is that voters are almost reflexive in displaying continued support for their traditional parties and will not switch allegiance even in the teeth of patently obvious evidence. How to overcome that sort of electoral inertia is another matter entirely.

Again, I am hoping one of our German counterparts might provide some enlightenment.

The Mad Hatter said...

My experiences with Europeans have been largely positive. When I was working in Germany several years ago, the only anti-American moment I personally experienced was from an Iranian immigrant who was blasting away at then-President GHW Bush. He later was concerned about possibly offending me, and apologized.

Czechmade said...

"Pro-Köln opposes Islamization and supports traditional German values and culture".

They invited Czech National Party ...and one can say: "which opposes Islamization and supports traditional Czech values and culture".

But this is rhetorics. Could they prove their support? In case of NS National Party it might be really difficult: No culture.

A fundamental mistake.

Derailed Cluetrain said...

Baron:

"You go to Europe, you dodge the spittle. No big deal."

As one of many European US-admirers, I find this blasé attitude a bit tiring. While I realize that nobody sane can spare the effort to deal with all the irrationality, at least you could work up some visible contempt instead of this resignation.

Baron Bodissey said...

Derailed Cluetrain --

...at least you could work up some visible contempt instead of this resignation.

Why? What purpose would be served by that?

The Europeans that I deal with most of the time are by and large not anti-American, so I don't have to worry about the issue. Every now and then I get a mild lecture, but that's no problem.

I'm trying to forge a coalition among disparate groups. If I want to be effective, that means I have to accept people as they are.

So far the issue hasn't been a problem.

I don't let myself be a doormat, needless to say. I defend America when we're right, but I acknowledge when we're wrong, too.

Zenster said...

Top Kafir: The Baron ... stated clearly that, as an American, he is the frequent target of hatred directed at America and Americans. That is as certain a fact as is the statement "The sun also rises... ."

As to Europe's knee-jerk anti-Americanism: Perhaps it is time to take a pointer from Accius' Atreus, "Oderint dum metuant".

Let them hate so long as they fear.

While this administration is clearly too busy with its overseas agenda of groveling before tyrants and apologizing for America's greatness, we could still hope the near future might produce a leader that would tie all foreign aid and military alliances to direct recognition of our nation's innumerable contributions towards improving this world's quality of life.

No more endless whining about America being the World's Policeman, even as these same cringing bastards shy away from taking any action and force us to take responsibility by virtue of their own default in addressing so many global issues.

My own feeling, especially with regard to Islam, is in the Machiavellian vein of "Better feared than loved." Islamic leaders who enjoy leading crowds in chanting "Death to America", should be treated to 50 caliber head-shots by our Special Forces snipers. A very few such cranial vaporizations in front of large gatherings would go a long way towards making these Muslim rutbags STFU.

AMDG: In the issues of common interest we collaborate, in the issues on which we have opposite interests we compromise.

We do not need to think the same, but we have to collaborate in our defence
.

This is both sound advice and the bottom line regarding Dar al Harb's ultimate survival. Or, as Benjiman Franklin so aptly put it:

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

This same political unity also must be reflected in the spiritual realm by having all non-Islamic religions band together in unified opposition to supremacist Muslim doctrine. Even atheists and agnostics should be welcomed into the fold by this religious coalition to help with the fight against Islam's spiritual imperialism.

Maalmannen said...

For those of you who can read Norwegian, here is my report from Cologne:

http://maalmannen.blogspot.com/2009/05/vellukka-antiislamiseringskongress-i.html

Felipe said...

The anti-nationalism is the new facism.

Czechmade said...

It is like desinfecting your stomach after having a colic. Yes, your stomach is evil...

Ilíon said...

Baron: "I write carefully, with the hope of not being misunderstood. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to read me less than closely, and thus assume I believe [Ilíon: or say] things that I do not."

Indeed; and frequently it's more frustrating than intentional misrepresentation.

Robin Shadowes said...

Unfortunately it's not only the american leadership who is groveling before islamists. So are the european leadership. We all know about british and dutch groveling and others. My countries leader has just recently been groveling before the turks and that was not by a long shot the first time he groveled before islam. He's probably bought off by the saudis anyway, so nothing strange there. Most of them probably are. I believe that their hatred for america is rooted in that it's the symbol for everything western. After all, they're busy destroying their own countries and continent right now. Dragging USA with them, must be the icing on the cake for them. Before they can construct something new, they must first deconstruct the old. That's why the allied with islam in the first place, as they share the same goal, to destroy the west and reconstruct it in their own image.

I only wonder if they have realized yet, that they have lost control of their allies by now. Are they consent with islam as supreme rulers, as long as they destroy the west? Even if it means their own sad demise as the ultimate cost? One thing I can't figure out, these people, are they mad as hatters or just ultimate evil?

As a swede I'm lucky enough to be born in the south, thus being able to avoid surströmming. Some say it tastes better than it smell, something I'm hellbent on never finding out, not ever. Unless it turns out it repels mohammedans as garlic repels vampires. Then it might come in handy though.

Félicie said...

I love surströmming, are you kidding? It tastes great, and it smells fine too. Give me some honest-to-goodness Swedish food and no kebab!

As for what repels mohameddans - we already know that. I am surprised that it's not being used. They hate Wagner. We should blast Wagner from the rooftops.

Ilíon said...

No offence, Félice, but You have got to be kidding!I'm sure that you repel me at least as well as garlic repels vampires; I'm doubtful about it repelling those others.

Ilíon said...

I'm so sorry! I meant to write "I'm sure that [would] repel me ..."

A assure you, *you* do not repel me!

EscapeVelocity said...

I find European Anti Americanism fascinating....although there are national flavors.

Then there is Leftwing anti Americanism. This type of anti Americanism should be countered vigorously.

Profitsbeard said...

Those who do not remember Islam's past are doomed to repeat it.(With no apologies to Santayana.)

Félicie said...

"I'm so sorry! I meant to write "I'm sure that [would] repel me ...""

Yeah, I understood what you meant. As for the surströmming, don't knowck it until you try it. :) It's great on a piece of dark hard bread with a lot of red onion and a shot of aquavit. It has a smell that could be describes as "characteristic". If you love the food, you love the smell. It's like the smell of durian. If you love the fruit (I do), you love the smell. This is a P.G. blog, otherwise I would extend the analogy into the area of sex. :)

Ilíon said...

Never heard of durian. Looked it up. *shudder* Sounds way too un-subtle for my taste.

Robin Shadowes said...

Didn't know they disliked Wagner. Weird, they love Hitler and he loved Wagner. Well, only goes to show there is nothing rational about mohammedans at all. Must remember to pick up something with Wagner as soon as opportunity arises. Anything that is particular effective among his works repelling modhampirs?

nimbus said...

They don't realize that even after many years of living abroad and acquiring the language or accent of their preferred country, they will still be sneered at as Americans by the local intelligentsia.That was my experience, too, after living years in Germany as an American. Although I had many nice experiences, especially back in the day from the people who had lived through WW2 or even WW1, (they knew the score and were almost always very kind to me), however, the Soviet-indoctrinated, younger crowd was a different story though....

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

You'd get that as an Englishman in France. Not so much in Sweden though, from what I can recall - they seem too polite to make an issue about it.

Félicie said...

"Didn't know they disliked Wagner. Weird, they love Hitler and he loved Wagner. Well, only goes to show there is nothing rational about mohammedans at all. Must remember to pick up something with Wagner as soon as opportunity arises. Anything that is particular effective among his works repelling modhampirs?"

I don't remember if a particular piece was mentioned. I think it was in Denmark where they started playing classical music at a railway station. Almost immediately, they noticed that the muslims, who used to loiter there, disappeared. They noticed that Wagner was the most effective choice. :LOL:

Ilíon said...

Well, it *might* have been the "youth" of these loiterers, rather than their Moslem-ness, which made then antipathetic to classical music.

islam o' phobe said...

Well, it *might* have been the "youth" of these loiterers, rather than their Moslem-ness, which made then antipathetic to classical music.Popssibly but I remember reading an article (written in the 1950s) which said that popular Arab music is very chaotic and plays on a continuous loop. The author said that the ongoing noise suited the Arab psychology. This could explain why modern pop music, which is pumped most everywhere as a kind of repetitive din, does not disturb the sensibilities of the "youths" whereas classical music, with its contrast between the quiet and loud parts, does not.

EscapeVelocity said...

There is a lot of inferiority complexes wrapped up in European Anti Americanism. They also dont like the Americans generally dont return the scorn, or the bitterness...seeing the Europeans as relatively weak non threatening pip squeaks....which really pisses off the Euros.

Ilíon said...

I think you may have a very good point there, EV.

islam o' phobe said...

EscapeVelocity,

Unless the Americans who comment on blogs like HotAir and Luicanne, and send emails to Mark Steyn's Mailbox, are somehow in a special class of their own then yes of course Americans respond with scorn and bitterness to criticims (both valid and unwarranted) and unfair and nasty things said against them and their country.

Americans are probably the politest people in the world but it's not possible for the populaion of an entire country to be immune to and exempt from human nature. Besides how come no other country merits an 'Anti-' prefix for harsh things said against it? (I mean apart from Islamic countries.)

Ilíon said...

Io'P,
Do Americans really *return* the scorn, or do we scorn the scorn directed at us? There is a difference.

Doing the first tends to give the initial scorner a self-satisfied (and self-righteous) glow of being "proven" right.

Doing the second tends to goad the initial scorner to even more irrational lengths as he hunts for the reaction which he can use as justification for his initial scorn.

EscapeVelocity said...

Well, you are correct, to a degree.

But the fact of the matter is that European has positive connotations in the US primarily. European cars, fashion, and cuisine are desireable for example. McDonalds and Cheesy Doodles are sneered at by the Euros, American cars, not prized for quality, American culture...trash. The Euros see American culture as invasive and a threat, Americans see European culture as entertaining and interesting and a source of cultural enrichment.

American conservatives are more likely to return the bile, because they love their country. The American Left generally agrees with the Euros, that America is a borish uncooth uncultured country of uneducated unsophisticated ignorant unsophisticated mutt rednecks.

There are several iterations of Anti Americanism. The Euro Right has their version which is what I call Nationalist/Supremacist Anti Americanism (which isnt limited to the Euro Right and can be found across the spectrum but its useful to term it this way). Then you have Leftwing Anti Americanism....which also can be found across the spectrum as Europe is generally more Leftist oriented than the US (its center is to the left of the US center).

As with all sweeping generalizations, they arent perfect and many exeptions can be found, but there is truth in them.


There used to be more Anti Americanism on the Euro Right than on the Euro Left many many decades ago. It was easier to find pro US Leftists in Europe, but now the opposite is true....and has been since at least the 60s for sure.

Ive found this topic fascinating, and have been pursuing it for some time now.

EscapeVelocity said...

France obviously has the most developed anti Americanism. Its anti Americanism also dovetails into its anti Angloism directed at Great Britain.

Its a fascinating study. The best book on the subject Ive read is Revel's 2003 book Anti Americanisme.

France has had more problems with its fall from Empire than the UK....on its psyche. France, includes, Leftwing anti Americanism, French pride and inferiority complexes, French paranoia and cutlural xenophobia, and French nationalism and desire to become a world superpower once again, and French superiority complexes.

The UK has largely proved itself to be a world power still, and doesnt have to overcome the shame of its WW2 legacy. This means that France has to weild its power in opposition to American (and the Anglo Alliance) to prove itself...and does this via the UN Security council for example, and its former offical policy of opposing US power (during the Cold War for example, Iraq resolution, and its NATO shenanigans) as a default position even if it served no other purpose.

islam o' phobe said...

Ilíon,

If you want an example of a totally humourless response to a comic take on America then you only have to look at the sub-entry Anti-Americanism on Wikipedia's entry to Charles Dicken's Martin Chuzzlewit.

Charles Dickens, the greatest comic writer of the nineteenth century and one of the greatest of all time, who criticised every English institution without mercy, wrote one of his best novels about America and the response (at the time and over a hundred years later) is sourpuss.

islam o' phobe said...

EscapeVeolicty,

I like a lot of American culture... Johnny Cash, Humphrey Bogart, the T.E., but I do think that American culture (including political culture) is invasive and overwhelming and that it has been bad for Europe in general.

The idea of one culture moving into another is very threatening. The Americanisation of Europe is not quite the same as the trendy American leftist habit of simply adopting and discarding whatever parts of modern European culture seems interesting. American culture has become the default for all Western cultures.

The sacred aura that is afforded third world cultures (especially Eastern religions - not just Islam) is the biggest problem nowadays. However I think the entire cross-fertilisation of cultures is very bad. People will forget who they are. This is already happening. Globalisation has been a total funk and the final stage is globalising wages so that you and I will be competing against Morrocans and Mexicans for third-world wages in our own countries. A diverse, one-world, global underclass.

EscapeVelocity said...

Well, globalization is the result of not just post WW2 free market response to the closed colonial/imperial systems that were a major part of the reason for WW2.

Global communications and transportation are here, and they arent going away.


I like a lot of American culture -- Islamophobe

Yes, that is part of the irrationality of Anti Americanism, they say one thing, but choose differently in their daily lives. The French rail against Disneyland, and then go there in droves...same for McDonalds.

I understand the difficulties in globalization well.

All anti Americanism isnt irrational....but it seems to get out of hand and takes on a life of its own, self perpetuating myths and reinforcement. I think this is why it has recieved its own terminology...that and the global presence of the US in the last half century...which means that everyone/many groups are effected by US policy, culture, and power.

What is interesting about Europe, is its post WW2 development. Its rise from the ashes to prosperity...and the resulting systems that were created from this great calamity that engulfed them. It still to this day grips them.

A lot of Americanization and adoption of American culture happened in this post war period.

I suggest another book. A History of Europe since 1945 by Tony Judt. It discusses much of the post war experience of the populations of Europe and development of their post war nation states with an eye to the big picture but also discussing individual nations...including the influence of American culture and power on these populations.

Brilliant stuff from Tony Judt.

Here is a small review.

blurb...

"In a discussion of the culture of today’s Europe, Judt speculates on the future of identity in Europe, with nationalism competing with Europeanism and now even with Islam."

http://rhapsodyinbooks.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/review-of-postwar-a-history-of-europe-since-1945-by-tony-judt/


Ive notied that American Conservatism has had great influence on non American conservative movements. They look to robust US conservatism as a leader and for arguments to counter the constant charges of fascism and racism.

islam o' phobe said...

EscapeVelocity,

Well, globalization is the result of not just post WW2 free market response to the closed colonial/imperial systems that were a major part of the reason for WW2.Globalisation is not the natural outcome of history. It has come about due to the very deliberate desires of certain people to impose it on the West.

Political movments do not just spontaneously arise out of the ether.

I like a lot of American culture -- Islamophobe

Yes, that is part of the irrationality of Anti Americanism,
Here I thought I was having a serious dicussion with an intelligent person only to find that in reality EscapeVelocity is examining me in his petri dish as an example of Anti-Americanism.

To any sane Americans who are reading this: I do not accept that my criticisms of America are evidence of a mental pathology.

EscapeVelocity said...

Well, Im not here to piss on you. I said that all anti Americanism is not irrational.

Globalization is the natural outcome of history though.

I do have sympathy for European ethnicities whose nation states are overrun with immigrants and whose own culture and peoples are being oppressed by the state to pander to the newcomers. This pathology is Leftist ideology and indoctrination working. Similarly pushed in the US...however the US system is designed to handle immigrants and integrate them...much to the chagrin of the Left.

Global capitalism however is not a nefarious plot...production and trade is human nature.

My first posts at the Gates of Vienna. Im not here to attack the locals. Im anti Jihad, anti Shariah, and anti Islamization of Europe.

EscapeVelocity said...

I dont know much about you, but I do aknowledge the differences between the European Right and the American Conservative.

The European Right is more collectivist/communitarian, and the American Conservative is more individualist/universalist.

Dymphna said...

@Escape Velocity

A History of Europe since 1945 by Tony JudtOh no...another book to add to my list. Can you give us any background on Judt?

I have a counter offer, by the way. A few years old now, but still on the mark:

"Our Oldest Enemy: A History of America's Disastrous Relationship with France" by Miller and Molesky.

I'll bet a lot of countries could write that book, substituting their name for America...there is something about the French.

Dymphna said...

To those who were discussing music as a way to repel the rowdies: this seems to work on any brand of rowdy.

A restaurant in town had made the mistake of installing a karoke machine and it began to attract a group of loud mouths who drank too much and drove away other patrons.

To remedy the situation,they called my son in to do weekly gigs of bluegrass and Americana music. It drove them away in short order. As he explained it to me later: "I was doing square, dorky whiteboy music" and they hated it."

The rowdies were white -- it wasn't a racial thing. But they wanted to hear bad attempts at rap and gangsta "music".

I think Mozart ought to be played on public address systems everywhere there is an opportunity for troublemakers to loiter. I know a convenience store owner who started putting it on the tape system that had a speaker outside in his parking lot. Mozart makes them disappear.

Makes sense. Dairy farmers use it in barns to soothe the cows. They produce more milk. Rowdies, otoh, don't *want* to be soothed.

Ilíon said...

Just so, Dymphna. That's what I was getting at.

Robin Shadowes said...

I was going to suggest atonal music like the 12-tone classical music or some forms of free jazz. But since I read that arab music is chaotic, they might even like it instead of being repelled by it. Personally I can't stand that kind of music. Perhaps it's better to gp for beautiful classical music instead, Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi and such. Maybe some modern music would also work like Enya. I can very well imagine the arabs would hate her music LOL.

EscapeVelocity said...

Hello Dymphna,

Judt is an interesting fellow and a bit controversial. Here is his wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Judt

Here is a video of him on Charlie Rose...

A conversation with professor Tony Judt about the history of Europe

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/530


Thanks for the book tip. I shall endevour to acquire it.

EscapeVelocity said...

Ooops! Tony Judt starts at the 10 minute mark at the Charlie rose video.

A conversation with Tony Judt, a leading expert on Europe and a professor at New York University about his book "Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945"

EscapeVelocity said...

DONT WASTE YOUR TIME ON THAT VIDEO!

Charlie Rose screwed up the editing, big time.

But the Tony Judt book Postwar: A History of Europe is worth seeking out.